Does your company really want to hang out with me?
2009-09-24
Imagine you have a crush on a girl at the bank.
Every time you talk, it's only business.
But one day she says, “Here's my cellphone number. Call anytime.”
Wow! She likes you!
You call her and ask her out. She says OK.
You meet up for dinner and after talking for 15 minutes she says, “Could I interest you in a home equity loan?”
Arrgh! That's worse than if she had never given you her number in the first place!
The fact that she only wants to talk about her business proves that not only is she not interested in you, but she was trying to trick you.
Now you're insulted and will never go to that bank again, or at least never believe it when they pretend to care about you.
This is what's happening with most companies' “Social Media Strategy”.
They're acting like they want to connect directly with you, get to know you, or hang out where you hang out.
But unless they learn how to stop selling, listen, and be real - they're just permanently alienating potential crushes.
So true, like the banks that promise they'll remember your name...
so how do you do it if you can't do it?
i mean, if you can't spend your time interacting and need to go be creative instead? do you show up on social media as real as you can, but no more?
There's always a sincere way to do anything. Perhaps if you don't want to Facebook, you put a page there that says so, instead of faking it? -- Derek
thankyou, TRUE - I really dislike this, people keep telling me to do it and I reFUSE! People are real human beings, not sales targets.
Yeah, this sound exactly like the question I asked Chris Brogan at his seminar in Nashville today: "At what point does 'marketing' go to far? It seems "social networking" is forcing this imperative to turn every marketing opportunity into a relationship, and every relationship becomes a marketing opportunity. Ya gotta draw the line... somewhere!
I get the concept but how would a company actually get on that level with their base? It just seems to me that as long as there's a business present, people will assume they're trying to sell something.
-- Derek
Do you assume that about me?
Hi Derek, That happens a lot on sites like MySpace. While I like and use MySpace often, you get hit up constantly with bands and businesses that kind of bait and switch with a message or come-on. It's the nature of the beast to a certain extent I guess, though.
Businesses will stop at nothing to sell. So long as one idiot buys their home equity loan or whatever they are pushing, it is a winning venture for them.
Just think of all those sales calls that are plaguing people at dinner time. That is totally a breach of etiquette as well.
I'm totally with you, Derek. It is not cool. But so long as the bottom line rules the roost, we are stuck dealing with sales calls in odd places. I mean, I can't even take a piss at a bar anymore without looking at an ad for a limousine service! ;)
I feel that pain!!
so i see you're going to be at the loft series next week. awesome!
Well,this is so typical but part of what we just go through evry day in any entertainment related business.I guess nothing really surpises me,at this point,but sometimes we do meet people who we like and and also have a good healthly connection with business.It is just unfortunate that we have to put ourselves out there to be vulnerable enough to find out,after all its only rejection.Sometime you can take and sometimes not.
I am actually trying to figure out this site in general. I could use help right now with my music. We got the band, the sound, the look, the talent and the experience but lacking the help. It's hard trying to build something and watch people try to take things slowly. I really just want to play and keep playing!!
It's like how people get annoyed if you only talk about one subject.
The exception is when you explicitly say in advance, I will just talk about this. Take it or leave it.
I hate business! I am giving my music away from now on. Have o update that website.
I think I have been guilty of this. I love kids and I start interacting with them in the grocery lines. The mom will say, "Wow, you're really good with kids." And that's a lead in..."Well I actually write children's music." It's not like I started playing with their kid because I wanted to sell them a CD but you betcha I'm gonna give em my card and ask 'em to visit my website and listen to my songs. Is that too commercial? Why should I remain anonymous? I love to share my songs with as many families as I can because I think they are good songs for kids and families. When you believe passionately in what you do, it's pretty hard to be quiet about it.
but you were interested in the girl in the first place, not the business
so, even if it worked out and she didn't sell you anything, it would not have improved your business with the bank
.... i understand your point, but don't agree that the story supports it
It's about being honest with your intentions. Many companies' “Social Media Strategy” is about appearing to be cool and part of the conversation. But they're not really interested in anything but selling. -- Derek
Because they weren't in the bank, we get the impression that business involving the bank should be left out. But bands/artists do not necessarily have an established place of work. We market ourselves everywhere.
If bands had billboards, commercials, public offices, and so on, the separation between business and personal would be more clear.
I don't feel you're trying to sell me anything! I'm so glad I joined CDBABY back years ago! I want you to know how much I enjoy these articles. They always make me think and inspire me. I wanna travel the world like you but alas I'm not a millionaire yet. Keep reading good books and traveling, then sending us things to think about. Thank you again for creating CDBABY.The best thing that's happened to me musically.
Paul Reece
American companies are notorious for that sort of bullshit. "Customer service" is an oxymoron. Employees are "associates" who "join the winning team" so you can "have a postive brand experience". Euphemistic language is everywhere and it's pure bullshit.
You give far too much credit to these companies. The girl in your scenario at least had the restraint to wait 15 minutes before launching into her pitch.
A more typical encounter would go as follows. The girl hangs out at a popular club, wearing a T-shirt with her bank's logo. She catches your eye, smiles. You say hi. She says, "Hi, thanks for talking to me! Can I interest you in a home equity loan?"
You start looking around the club for more interesting people to talk to, but she keeps talking about home equity loans. While hitting you over the head with a hammer.
Amen.
Golden Rule time. Don't like being sold at? Don't sell at people.
People will do business with people they know and like—*whether you ask for their business or not*
Really, do the folks you interact with on MySpace NOT know you have a CD for sale? Do the folks who visit your business blog NOT know you're a consultant, or you sell vegetable slicers, or whatever? Of COURSE they know. You can mention it without pitching, just like when someone at a party asks what you do and you say "I sell vegetable slicers."
When people get to know you and like you and TRUST you, you will not need to pitch. You will not need to sell. They will come to you.
Like the high-dollar web deal I've done this week, with a friend who I've never pitched in any way, shape, or form. He came to me, because he knows what I do for work (business consulting and web dev) and when he had a need, he knew where to go.
No pitch. No 'close'. Just trust, and a painless sale.
Absolutely! Whatever happened to networking for the purpose of "being of service" and "giving of oneself", instead of trying to get whatever one can from whomever?
I've always felt that once a person is able to raise his own life condition, they should feel the responsibility of sending the elevator back down again, so that another person may use it to come upstairs.
Don't "act" sincere. BE sincere.
The other day I was "selected" after submitting to this opportunity. Cool. The message said contact us for a contract. I did and waited. 2 weeks later I called and was informed that a member of their sales staff would be contacting me. They loved my tunes.....I am always shacking my head. The opposite of music is business. Whoever said that had it right. What do y'all think Utah Phillips was so bent up about....dale
"
permission marketing...what real people want from real people.
I must ask you Derek...what bank do you go to? Really.... I am cracking up...! Is this for real... You are joking... yes?
-- Derek
OR...is this a new business practice...please...! How great is this....profiled for a date...for a potential business transaction..AND YOU get to pay for the meal! WOW! OR...does the woman pay..and then she can actually write the meal off as a business expense! BRILLIANT!!!!
This is only a metaphor. It didn't really happen.
Thank you *so* much for this! I see other businesses struggling with the fact that they don't like and don't want to be interacting this way, but they don't see that what they're doing is ineffective. They've been lead by coaches that tell them they have to have that 'presence' whether it comes naturally to them or not, and the hard sell just doesn't translate.
When we did our Duran Duran tribute album in the late 90's, I wasn't worried about my 'networking strategy'--I was just babbling on usenet groups and message boards because I was really excited that I was putting a CD out, and that other people really wanted to learn more about it. I try to bring that same energy to everything I do now. If I can't, if it feels too forced (your fans pick up on that, y'know), I just stop. It's better to do nothing than to do THAT.
Amen!
If business is not personal, it is just criminal activity.
You hit the nail on the head, opened my eyes wider. That one is gonna stick. Great story!
Well said. I have been crying foul for a long time about this very thing.
I believe if you are involved in social media and you are just yourself, people who need a service that you provide will come to you for it. The magic happens through the referrals you will receive.
When someone stumbles onto something great, they want to tell everybody. When that something is forced on them, they will naturally turn away.
Every company thinks that by interrupting what you are doing and grabbing a moment of your attention, that they are going to present the best opportunity you've ever heard (exactly what you needed in your life).
I actually had a person I met at a networking group e-mail me to say he wants to get together. I told him I'm really busy with dental school, and I'd rather speak on the phone, and he said "ok, fine then, can you watch this 30 minutes video about this opportunity and then give me a call about it".
No, I'm busy. Tell me in 1 sentence what you want, so I can determine if I'm interested or not. After a few back and forth e-mails (I was being very polite in trying to figure out what he wants), he finally told me. That was simple enough, and I didn't even have to use 30 minutes to watch a video to determine that I'm not interested.
This is a good point Derek,
I'm an honest person and I genuinely want to connect with people and provide value etc.
The only way I have been able to think of to convey this to people convincingly is to make pretty much everything I do available for free.
Then it's about being patient and actually being true to my word: Actually establishing a relationship as promised.
Will there ever be any money in it that way? Well I believe that if you know why you are doing something and it is true to who you are and makes a positive difference to those engaging with it then yes, there will be, but it may not be from selling anything directly.
I've never been very passionate about selling or marketing.
Being tricked is not a good way going about getting business. Kind of the same tactic that Amway tries to rook you in.
I have always said that in business, 90% of the business is about selling yourself (people liking and trusting you) and 10% is actually doing the job.
thank you for being so generous by sharing so many beautiful insights.
I really enjoy reading all that you have to share. Truly a gift!
"I love to share my songs with as many families as I can because I think they are good songs for kids and families. When you believe passionately in what you do, it's pretty hard to be quiet about it."
Watch out someone will feel like you're being pushy with your kids songs...it's the risk we run as musicians/businesses. Somebody's feelings are gonna get hurt. I agree though that some companies are fake and insincere. Theirs is a poor business model to follow. Yours, Kate, seems innocent enough and is very upfront and personal. There should be no hidden agendas.
I think it's all a question of balance. If you only push your self or your gigs on facebook, people won't take an interest in you. However if you read other peoples post, and wish them well when they have something good come about, share photos that you think others will enjoy and really become part of the community, then when you also post about your music , your friends are happy to support you.
Derek, about 10 years ago when my husband was between jobs, a "friend" from church invited him to lunch to network with some friends. Well, it turns out to be an Amway recruiting meeting. My husband got up, and walked out. And the "friend" was upset with my husband for leaving. To which my darling husband replied, " I trusted you as a friend and you lied to me about the true intentions of this meeting". This man said that God told him to "help" my husband-who by the way is an extremely successful CFO(who like most CFOs is usually one of the first to go in tough times). Hurray for my husband for standing up to this badgering opportunist.
I think if everytime someone tries to sell us on some idea or great "investment" under false pretenses; we should just get up and walk away. Why show respect to someone who shows you none. Time is too valuable to waste it this way.
But Derek, as a booking agent for musicians, I try my best to be respectful in my networking, and to read people's body language. Learning when to back off is really important. Knowing when to just listen, and when to do a sales pitch is a real art-one that I do stumble on at times.
And learning that my sudden popularity at conferences and festivals is because musicians realize that I am a booking agent, is a little disheartening-but I am learning to just go with the flow and trust my instincts about people.
I have seen artists who are so good at marketing themselves, and I think that in those instances, those people are just comfortable with who they are, and have a passion and excitement that is contagious. Others over-market themselves in a really "icky" way, that is such a turn off. A recent example was an artist who sends out weekly email blasts. He exclaimed that he couldn't believe he sold out Eddie's Attic for that evening. Well, I checked Eddie's website, and this young artist was the opening act for a well established artist-who sold out the show. When people feel the need to exaggerate their successes, then others will always see them in that light. Yes, this young artist has much talent, he just needs to learn some better marketing techniques.
Thanks Derek, for another thought provoking post! We all appreciate you!
I always assume a business is trying to solicit more business. I've made only a few real friends along the way via business, but the risks were always worth it (so far) and because of my "it's probably related to business" assumption, the dissapointments have been few.
What's worse: a friend of many years takes you out to lunch and then won't take "no" for their Born-Again passion for some multi-level marketing shtick. Ugh! Talk about a letdown!
Good advice! I wonder what "being real" would look like in a multinational corporation?
i needed to hear this.
On a more serious note...another thought that I am compelled to share....do you not prefer to do business with people you like?
I have found that many times a casual lunch or dinner discussion has created the foundation for future business interactions ... "like" people attract. Yes?
Hey Derek - For us it is like this:
4 EVER FREE MP3 !
Why not? Everything around us seems to be about money. Everywhere you turn there's a sales pitch or an ad. The Rich fight for money so they can buy their trophies. The Poor fight for money so they can eat... Hey! Trophies are empty rewards and there's enough food and water on the planet for none of us to ever go hungry... But with money Humans raise their walls. With money Humans create an illusion. And so the homeless get kicked out of restaurants for disturbing the peace while the stars get served for free... Enough!
THE VIDYA is about FREEDOM, about THE TRUTH, it is just a LOVE STORY. An EXPERIENCE. That's it...
We can't put a price on it and neither should our fans.
It's an OPEN CONNECTION...
So for as long as we produce we vow to give our mp3 for free...
4 EVER FREE MP3 !
As proof and higher symbol that money will never stand between the love that exists
between THE VIDYA and those it can touch.
LOVE ALWAYS
And may peace be our highest value ;)
- Sebastian DeVicente
Relax Puritans - The Vidya is just like a pretty girl on the beach...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOYDn-sd8I0
I consider myself a pretty real guy and do social media marketing. We've e-mailed back and forth before regarding work and I'm very happy to have connected with you...
...and although I don't comment much, I read almost all of your posts. You're very social media-savvy and seem like a pretty real guy. Naturally, it's good to study people you consider better than you at something, so thanks for the great posts and your guidance at times.
Hope I haven't ever offended you by not checking in from time to time to be annoying about my company (just not my style). Please know I'm happy to be a part of your community and think you're a hell of a smart dude. Much respect.
So the guy is insulted because she just wanted money.... Did you mention the girl is insulted because the guy just wanted sex?
I'm between companies at the moment. I'm just here cuz I like to read.
music being derek
are not your ulterior motives to be a guru?
if a banking woman offered me a home equity loan i would be so very grateful. and some kinky sex
i would be utmost grateful
jesus had ulterior motives, way stupid ones that got him crucified.
everyone is in some kind of biz, business is life wheteher you "save a soul" or shoot a hole in someone, it's part of the game.
i want to piss on your feet.
bright musical ways
ian the being being ian
You never go for money in a direct path according to the salesman classes. You go on a 90 degree path which is oriented towards helping people by providing what ever they need. This is supposed to be started by getting them to do most of the talking so that you can deduce their needs and only provide their needs if they ask you to help. By being a sounding board for them and not making promises you gain their respect and trust. The girl in the bank did just the opposite. An expert salesman is trained by role playing until they are smooth as silk. If a company doesn't do this training or have these kind of people shut down the rest of the company because without sales the rest is mute.
Yes, the point is to not overtly trick people into listening to your pitch/music/whatever. Manipulation is not always the same as trickery, by the way. Subtle manipulation can be a good thing for both parties when it comes from a sincere, often unconscious, place (that is, considering the philosophical difficulties - and even paradoxes - the statements "I never manipulate anyone" and "you should never manipulate anyone" bring up, manipulation is best considered a neutral word). It's when manipulation comes from insincerity and is specifically, consciously calculated to deceive someone into engaging in behavior they would otherwise avoid that you risk earning not their business, but their undying disgust.
-Dan Wallace
I'm sure most of u have been through this, I had sent cds to these ball parks, thinking I was going to sing the national anthem but I was fooled, the season has been booked so they said. it's the same thing as of what you're saying!
They remember my name at Loan Max!
DEREK YOU FRIGGIN ROCK!
your ability to positively spin things and teach valuable lessons really impresses me.
and. it is very nice to have this article to refer people to...to um. explain.
few seem ready, really ready to admit that business changed...one of the ways it changed was that no one wants to be marketed to.
i have a select few friends that i run business ideas past. if they feel pitched, i figure out a new approach.
everyone appreciates new exciting information. presented at a timely manner within a larger conversation. everyone also understands that we try to self promote politely, wherever we can...
but a business idea that supersedes that is that people like to work and hang out with their friends.
and even more. personally, i'd rather make a real friend and hang out than think about my next job, any day.
thank you thrice.
stefan
PS - I forgot to mention that this little allegory was put together really well! I don't think I've come across a better analogy for this idea.
-Dan Wallace
Authentic is as authentic does.
Bringing people together and helping them to feel bonded is one of the main job descriptions of musicians across time and culture. Bringing them together in ways which are positive, ethical and meaningful rather than within a business framework which invariably engages people's reptilian brains and cares only about money, is the challenge. The music you make and/or business you do has to match your sense of ethics so you can sincerely share your work with people who mean something to you and if they get something positive from it they can share it with people who mean something to them : )
This business is so easy! Most people (including the girl at the bank) ask me what I do, I tell them I'm a musician, and then that's all they want to talk about. I have to persistently turn the conversation back to them to keep myself interested.
The third question is usually, "Are you playing around here anytime soon?" But of course. "Do you have a website?" runs a close fourth or fifth.
Dude... I was totally tweeting about that today! The latest here in San Diego is "personalized texts" that seem like a personal message. If your music is good, I'll be there... don't trick me! You rock d-rock!
You just struck a pet peave of mine, haha!
When people take that "straight for the throat" approach. They're practically saying "This is the ONLY thing I could use you for." And that to me just shows ignorance on there part.
If the only thing a person is good to you for is to add to your numbers, or give you a few extra dollars. Then your life has very little value =/
Yeah, my company wants to hang out with you. You're an interesting guy. When and where is good for you? We're close to NYC.
MAD
(my initials)
It's one thing to be passionate about what you do, and something entirely different to know if the person you are interacting with wants to be sold your passion.
but your crush is also moved by interest, right? I mean, you wouldn't ask her out if she was a geek. This is a mutual interest loan case. So, I would say, relax and let her talk numbers.. you might end up even getting lucky
In my day gig, a long time ago, I learned that you sell by listening... not by jabbering! Derek's point is well taken. In order for your networking to be effective, it needs to be based upon the relationship you build by really CARING about your customers and prospects and listening to them and being interested in their worlds...
Ha! So true. I think the solution is to never drop the "sales pitch". Right? I mean, if you plays your cards right, they will come too you for help\services.
That is corporate America. Any congratulations you get or something saying get a free this or that, is an opportunity to sell something or take your money. I am glad CDbaby is the reverse.
No, I am not interested in any loan you have to offer at this time and if that's the only reason you decided to have dinner with me then I hope you're prepared to pay for your own meal. And can you please stop talking about banking? Oh you love banking? Then maybe you should be sitting across from someone who loves banking too. What was that you said? It's even harder selling loans to other bankers?
Bwahahahahaha! Dan's post is perfect.
Hey, doesn't this scenario kind of tie in with the post on 9/21/09 about scmoozing your audience to get more CD sales? The artist emphasizes the personal connection, then finesses more CD sales by suggesting it was a special experience that must be commemorated at all costs (you're special and I want you to have this CD that I put a lot of blood, sweat & tears into, even if it means you take if for free because you deserve a momento from this beautiful experience). It probably helps to gently strum a guitar during the pitch, or better yet, a harp.
Sorry, but all this direct merchandizing and social networking stuff is a mystery to me. It's all tupperware. -jz
The banks always remember your name when you miss a payment or late with a paymeny. LOL.
I have a BA in music and a BS in accounting and I love having my CD on CD Baby. I KNOW the dichotomy between business and music all too well. Everybody wants a genuine experience from the guy at the grocery store to the girl at the bank. Every customer wants value and every cashier wants the money and no one cares about the next person in line. Everyone is looking for some kind of handout or piece of advice and they want it for free. Most people love their job so they'll smile at you while they hit you up for money. Musicians do it all for love and the love of making people feel good. I give my love for free. I don't expect anything for it, and that's why people follow me. I know I am loved and that's the best feeling in the world.
So, if I'm hearing, er, reading you correctly, social networking is for listening first, then talking?
But Derek, the really important question to any true intellectual is - did you get any sugar?
Thanks for sharing.
Haven't I written this before? The performance artist Penny Arcade says that there are only two kinds of artists: those who want to be admired, and those who want to be friends with everybody. If you're the latter type, then social network marketing is your dream come true, and you will thrive.
If you're the other kind, you may have a harder time. And it's not necessarily because you're a snotty egotist, but that you use your work itself to communicate and make contact. And what I've noticed is this kind of artist is usually happy to talk about his work, but lousy at chit-chat. If someone put them on Charlie Rose for an hour, they'd never shut up.
It's extremely important, then, that you always speak authentically to people, about things that interest you. I remember getting worried after giving a very complex, intellectual-ish interview to an internet radio show -- who the hell wants to hear this kind of talk, I thought? Well, the answer is: people who will like my music all the way to the bone. Sure, some people will get interested because they thing a song sounds "pretty", but "pretty" isn't enough to make them stick around.
So I like to imagine that I'm marketing to people who are interested and excited by the things that interest and excite me. So I'm not marketing at all, really, I'm just making friends with the kind of people I've always wanted to be surrounded by.
That's something I can be excited about.
Yes Sometimes it does seem the entire world is turning into an Amway distributor.
I comment on everyone who befriends me on social sites because of course I want to get my band name out there and that is the whole point.
But I always say something nice about them on their profile and just sign it with our names.
I find people appreciate that more.
One musician set up a best musicians type site and added us he said just because we commented on his work and didn't make it all about us.
Soliciting your friends is, as the British would say, "bad form".
Down with users, I say.
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&bID=511621288
We've all run into this in one form or another. It's so disingenuous and leaves the victim feeling manipulated, "handled". Good business is being good, doing good - not jerking people around.
So true, so simple, and yet so many businesses find it so hard to do.
"Could I interest you in a home equity loan?" Absolutely! And while were at it, could I interest you one of these Rolex watches?
I don't mind friends, being there for friends, and being friendly. But when I'm playing shows and selling disks, it really is a sales gig. I'm trying to earn back the money I've invested, pay back those businesses (and FRIENDS)that have supported my efforts. So where is the happy medium?
By actually sending those birthday greetings, or nice pics from trails I've hiked (AZ has some incredible back country) in the spirit of being there with no expectation of return. Being out there looking for shows, while at the same time being friendly and not bitter or cynical.
And refraining from begging everyone you know to vote for your tune in yet another meaningless little contest. God that gets old!
OMG! !!! I really do have a crush on my banker! Oh man, she is sooo cute!! I think she likes me, but I've been going there for a year and never said anything to her, so now I feel like, oh..geez!... What should I do, Derek?
Nice one on #67
You could always tell that bank teller how she made you feel, she might be single and say sorry.
With all these ways for people and companies to connect what works for one may be a train wreck for another. If every single band in the world is on Myspace or facebook it's possibly the wrong places to worry about focusing.
Quality is king.
Quality control is the key to all great enterprises in the end. People need to feel that you can provide a service that is unique and special.
Make every aspect of your life a work of art. The ultimate musicians are making harmony & melody in all aspects of their lives. Give your best if you want the best, never leaving anyone questioning your intentions.
True! I do believe that good practice makes a good business so practice what you preach. The best way to do business in that fashion is to actually establish a REAL social life with people who are interested in who you are and what you do, never try to sell them anything, after a few gatherings they will promote you themselves. I always here, a mutal friend of ours told me that you are the man for the job, they think highly of you. Having friends help my business
Right on!
It's like the Ford ad campaign says.."no boundaries."
Sacred space is not respected as a boundary...churches use the pulpit for politics, multilevel marketing turns friends into downlines or uplines..we all have to set boundaries that we feel right about.
It's certainly nothing new..influential families would marry their sons and daughters off to make political alliances....part of what people do.
Yes! That is the secret that every woman in sales knows. Men are suckers for a pretty girl who pays them any attention. It's not an unfair advantage, but it is indeed an advantage when it comes to dealing with the majority of men. I just love the last line of the story!
You say "possibly, if you said the right things."
I am giving away an entire album for free and every time I say something on facebook or twitter I feel like I am selling myself. I try to be clever, creative or artful. But no matter what, there is that part of me feels that still feels like I am selling. I guess I just have to learn how to be comfortable doing so.
Well Derek ... I would enjoy hanging out with you but I'm almost old enough to be your grandma. Plus
I don't have enough time or money to meet you even half way. SMILE .
I have already learned a lot from all your questions and the answers different people give. It is very
interesting and helpful. There are many sharp people who post here.
You will have no trouble accomplishing whatever you desire.
People are intrigued by your
friendly smile and sparkling blue
eyes.
There is an underlying theme to your "pay what you can" CD post and this one which could be twisted to be self-serving. I sense you are sensing that when we share in open-hearted, real ways we will receive back. But if we do this because we want or expect to receive (love, money, fame, praise, press) we are acting with a hidden agenda,sending out mixed signals and not being sincere.
Social media are simply virtual platforms for sharing who we are with others. What we share must be genuine not because we think or hope or calculate it will benefit us but because we recognize that meaningful connection is what makes our hearts sing.
I just love the analogy!
As for the bait and switch fiasco....More and more i believe all business is about building trusting relationships so i sorta feel pity for those who dont understand that and try not to judge too harshly cuz they are misguided in a way that hurts them way more .They rarely get much anyhow and what they do get is empty.
Did that story really happen to you?
I guess you should have seen how bad she wanted to give you a ''loan''!
~~~~ Some girls at the bank are sexy!
I like the Dereks response above: "There's always a sincere way to do anything. Perhaps if you don't want to Facebook, you put a page there that says so, instead of faking it? -- Derek"
I just started my facebook page and I want to be 'part of it all,' but I'm at a loss to care about 'poking' someone or whatever.
As with my twitter, I want to find a balance of what means something to me, something I actually have to say, vs just adding to the background noise.
Is that sincere enough?
You nailed this.Right On.better yet,how about all of the music companies out there that are online that want to make me a star if I just pay them.They can place me at the top of their page for X amount
I just like the possibilities suggested in the photo - the cleavage, the candle, the almost finished glass of wine...
Do not let your eyes drift.
Yup... I first started feeling sold to by Network Marketing companies like Melaleuca. Although the products are great, if you become a member then start trying to build your business, all you can think about is selling.
Then with bands on network marketing websites... I just love it when they put out those mass emails to their "20,000 friends" and try to make it sound personal. It's so fake, but who knows maybe they do sell.
And another thing... is my post here for real or am I just posting to get my website out there? Hmmm... Am I real?
Well that's the problem bro. You've got to stay away from bank Chicks or at least consider the source. LOL
People are interested most in what's in their reality, one could say. Business people commonly seem to fail because they're in their own reality, not the people they're soliciting to. This is why, I personally think the best sales people are the ones that give power instead of taking it from the person they're trying to sell to. They're the ones who listen more then they talk. It's hard and that's why most salesmen/women in general, probably get the bad repuation they do.
I couldn't agree more. What surprises me about this is that marketing companies use this all the time and aren't they the ones that are suppose to leading the way in that area? When I see this, I immediately move on.
Yeah...myspace...bands/musicians become 'friends', just to send me comments (!) about their next tour or cd. I mean....isn't the comment-page supposed to be a place where people comment about MY music, not about their own? I delete them immediatly.
It's hard to really get in touch with people when you meet lots of fake smiles and enthousiastic behaviour that turns out to be not more than a strategy. On the other hand... I can understand it. Lots of musicians feel panic, like 'I'm in the business for years now, and still I'm not where I wanted to be' etc.... So people feel they have to be inventive, do crazy stuff, network, network, network. That doesn't have to be a bad thing of course. But the panic turns it into an exagerrated fake thing.
This is why I want you in my corner to help me with marketing, because you come across as very real.
>>>>There's always a sincere way to do anything. Perhaps if you don't want to Facebook, you put a page there that says so, instead of faking it? -- Derek>>>>
I love that, thanks!!
Great point Derek!
Not only do I get "courted" by social media companies, but also booking agents, A & R reps, disc replicators, recording studios, online music (instruments stores), etc, etc,. etc. And don't even get me started on artists who kiss up to me and shit on me in return, the phony songwriting contests that so called local productions companies(the money goes into their pockets) --it never freakin' ends!! Hell, I am folk singer, like I have any money. It is all about grabbing and taking. Maybe I should start being rude and tell them, there's bridge I can sell you in Brooklyn!
I got turned off to My Space when I had barely gotten set up--it looked to me like my "my space" was just a place for other musicians (whom I didn't even know) to post their gigs! So I just fell out of it. I'm sure other people have better experiences, or maybe I missed the concept, or some important "how to do My Space" lesson, but I didn't have the time to deal with it-- I couldn't figure out why all these people wanted to be "my friend" and then all of a sudden it became crystal clear... Thanks, but no thanks... ;-)
they should have called it "Their Space"
That's the fine line of a business relationship. Most people like to do business with people they get along with - that means you have to care about the personal side of life as well.
Then on occasion you have to ask for the things you want in business.
I just walked in from hanging out with a girl at a bar with her friend. Is this a romantic thing, or a just a friendly thing? I think she thinks it's a romantic thing, but it's unclear and assumptive to say anything. Behind every moment there seems to be some, often blind, intention.
I've been sold on romantic, personal, business, and religious relationships all because I've dishonored myself in trying to fulfill my opinion of another person's desire for how I should look. I've looked like I'm listening, been the hero, the good guy, the good samaritan, the generous one, righteous, smart - making an effort to look good is often not the step forward you want.
couldn't have said it better myself - tonight I wrapped a full day of an Internet marketing seminar and met someone who was "taught" the every 3rd tweet or FB message should sell and the other two should be real.... I thought to myself.... who in the hell is teaching this stuff? my 2 cents: Be real, show your joy and simply share yourself...
This is a really interesting subject and there are some opinions here that I can really relate to. In terms of musicians selling their work and the whole DIY ethic these days, to my limited knowledge it seems the old record company structure used to deal with a lot of things that artists are now having to get involved in in a much more hands-on way. I think all these new tools at our disposal are successful depending on how you define success and how you use them. I have big reservations about facebook et al and I just can't grasp why that is. I have a myspace page which I see as a simple platform for people to see what I do.....should they wish to do so. However, it's interesting to note that very little traffic from 'non-musicians' passes by. Sure, I would like people to be aware of my 'art' but I hate the concept of the hard sell because I hate being sold to.
Outside of music in everyday life I'm also very aware of those personality types that are always self-promoting, whatever their agenda, and it just turns me right off. Humility is noticeable by its absence these days I think.
However, does anyone here have any practical tips as to how I overcome the increasing sense of guilt I feel whenever I even mention that I make music that I'd like other people to hear? It is slowly driving me nuts ;)
Derek, that's the issue I'm having whilst soliciting new MySpace "fans" or "friends" to add me. Some want to know why I want to be their friend and others immediately become your fan, yet expect to you to communicate with them personally on a regular basis. I want to say, it's about the music mate! I mean how can I possibly take time to create music, hone my skills as a performing artist and chat with thousands? How I axe ya? I know my new "friends" might drop me, once they realise that I'm really just interested in sharing or promoting my music. Can't "date" all of you.
One word: "Nice."
Yea I have been set up and suckered that way quite a few times... Accepted it once but not anymore unless I have to for some reason.. cross em of the list no matter who they are. I dont go to the pub much but I did for a couple the other night. They had a little plot to keep me there when I went to leave. I was impressed they wanted my company... However I caught their plot when I finaly left... I mean it was like a quite local bush pub. I was like 25% of the crowd... Thats good bussiness... or was it if I never go back.. perhaps they didnt enjoy my company after all and didnt want me back Dont cha love life when you live even the small moments.. Gee I would love the gorgeous blond to ask me out at my bank I think she could sell me anything... Thats not done in Australia yet not that I know of...
Shame on her for exploiting something like friendship to make a buck. Shame on you for not seeing it coming..
Derek, your posts are always smart, original and very interesting.
Incidentally, my bank hates me ;) but there's a guy there who still remembers I gave him a few cds years ago. When I called recently to solve a problem related to a check that had bounced by mistake I was looking for another person and I found him on phone... he didn't talk of the cheque at all, he was like asking me of recent music activities and saying he still has a certain old cd (www.cdbaby.com/pacodj) ;) and he was showing it to his son a few days ago and they were listening to it and it still sounded fun, blah blah blah.
Miraculously, he solved the cheque problem while we kept talking about music. He asked me to reload my online banking at the end of the call and everything looked fine.
Sometimes I'm lucky.
And yes, I fully understand your post wasn't about banks anyway. :D
Still thought to share this little story.
ha ha..i pity the guy....better luck next time...
So true. Last week my mother passed away. I'm thankful that I got to spend a lot of time at her hospital bed during the last week. On one social network I have about 5,000 friends and I know that 3 of them read some of the pieces I blogged about it. That's a reality check.
umm... what's the name of the girl again? i'm interested in home equity loan,... and her. hehehe
Hahahaha...
Too funny!
As long as the cheque is on her I dont mind so much...
Poor guy - assumptions were his fault. He could've said "sure, I'll take your number. So, does that mean you're into going out with me sometime?" He assumed her offer of her number was a romantic invite - that is dangerous.
The scenario is not unique to social media strategies - it is common to all types of human interaction, be it social, personal, or blatant commercial hawking - -
Every human has something they want from other humans - instead of being direct, some play games - but nonetheless some really sincerely do "want to connect directly with you, get to know you, or hang out where you hang out."
The banking lady should have waited until after dinner and instead of 'asking' him if he wanted a loan, she should have just said something like "oh, by the way, since I do home equity loans, make sure you let me know if you ever need my help."
Maybe it's still the same business motivation but at least it wouldn't feel as much like a scam act.
Be sincere, sure, but don't think for a moment that you'll ever meet another human who DOESN'T want something from you, no matter how long they wait before making their pitch -
didn't you write something awhile back about desperation
Hey what is valuable? Money?
But money is just a symbol. Maybe admiration.Everyone craves admiration, either overtly or covertly. I guess that is what's called ego.
Yeah Derek I'll hang out with you anytime.
Love, B
Yeah. I think we all have been guilty of this at one time or another. The key is to recognize it and stop doing it.
For a while I was self employed and struggling. When you are in this "hunting for survival" mode, from the time you wake up until the time you go to sleep you are struggling to find work to feed your family. Every person you meet is a potential lead. Every party you attend is full of potential clients or leads. This does not make for a very fun life for either yourself or your friends.
Now I have a full time job that pays the bills. I no longer have that hunger to push myself on anyone and I can enjoy life a lot more. Perhaps if I had been fortunate enough to be extrememly successful then being self employed would have been great, but when you are hungry, it ain't very pretty and it affects your personal life.
Hi Derek, Re facebook; I busk and always give a good amount of my takings to Children's Hospices UK, a great charity that supports forty four hospices nationwide and really does need funds from the general public because it is not supported by anyone else at all. It's on TV iplayer under lifeline last Sunday.
Because I was being charitable, somebody has done a very complimentary facebook site about me with lots of members. I never asked for this and am totally unfamiliar with all of this computer stuff. I only found out about this by accident but it's great when you don't have to do all of this and you are just trying to help others. Maybe some other musicians would like to give to this needy charity. You might find you don't need to sell yourself too much if you do! Keep smiling, Dennis Derby
GREAT MESSAGE!
NOW, ANYONE WANT TO BUY MY CD?
I think you are going to love this hilarious voicemail of some guy trying to pick up some girl who gave him her number in a bar - I think it may have been the same girl at the bank in your example above. Enjoy!
As heard on the radio Z103.5 Morning Show: http://bit.ly/3POvUH
Follow me here if you like:
www.twitter.com/aainslie
Imagine you have a crush on a girl at the bank.
Every time you talk, it's only business.
But one day she says, “Here's my cellphone number. Call anytime.”
Wow! She likes you!
You call her and ask her out. She says OK.
You meet up for dinner and after talking for 15 minutes she says, “Could I interest you in a home equity loan?”
And you say: I'll think about it while we making love tonight and if you are any good might tell you in the morning! -
Thanks for this Derek. 'Permanently alienating potential crushes' is a great tagline.
I think a lot of us are still having this experience at the moment. It's particularly bad on Twitter, where the temptation to deploy a robot to follow lots of people (in lieu of a real person establishing authentic connections) is still too great for some marketers.
The wonderful thing about social media of course is that moaning about it sometimes gets results, as I found our yesterday. (see fifth comment)
http://connect.icrossing.co.uk/twitter-legend-hollow-follow_2836
Fast forward to the future pls.
Home equity loan? Oh, yeah, that might be good...Little more wine? You know, you really have the most beautiful eyes...Here, let me show you something I was thinking of doing in the bedroom...Now, how does this thing unhook...
Never shone very bright at socialising with people I like let alone the labour of 'networking' - if the process isn't sincere.
my myspace suggests that if you're doing more than browsing - 'I'm over here' - followed by www.etc.
That's it. I don't go there.
my younger relatives use twitter and facebook - both of which I linked to because I thought I should.
I not only don't use them - no negative judgement being applied to those who DO use them - but I'm fed up with the whole business of 140 characters or 'who likes who' and it's probably my age but I'd prefer a letter or a phone call to a text. Don't have a mobile so I'm spared that distraction.
Perhaps it's a silly notion but - if my songs resonate they'll be found eventually - and if they don't resonate, all the twittering in the world isn't going to alter that fact.
What I DO really like is the opportunity to get online after a decent day's work and sometimes interact with THIS community.
Why?
The Well and the Spring.
I see the odd, self-interestedly, motivated response to these thoughts/articles that Derek tosses into the pot but the majority of responses are not 'social networking'... they're genuine and sincere.
Each of us draws from our internal Well which in turn is fed by a Spring. The Spring is divine.
It's the same 'water' but there are times in our lives when the well needs to be repaired or the water is muddy or, perhaps, the water is pure and all can come to drink but no-one does because no-one knows the well is there.
I'd suggest that this is a forum where we can all come and be refreshed by water from other wells.
I turned those lines of thought into an unrecorded love song which I hope you don't mind me throwing in.
It's got it's sexual/sensual connotations but the creative impulse was more aligned to the spiritual.
THE WELL IS LINED - TO DRINK IS SWEET, I WASH MY HEAD DOWN TO MY FEET
ANTICIPATION BE THY NAME, THERE’S NOTHING HERE I NEED EXPLAIN
SO WONDROUS IS YOUR SIRENS SONG, IT SINGS TO ME
SO WONDROUS IS YOUR SIRENS SONG, IT CALLS...........
AWAKE AWAKE, LOVER AWAKE, ENCHANTMENT TO MAKE , LOVER EMBRACE.......
YOU TOUCH ME HERE, I TOUCH YOU THERE. IT’S HEART THAT COUNTS - GOES EVERYWHERE
MY SKIN IT TREMBLES TO YOUR TOUCH. BEHOLD THE SPICE OF AFTERLIFE
ANOINT ME WITH YOUR PRECIOUS DEW - MAKE ME ANEW
ANOINT ME WITH YOUR PRECIOUS DEW - BID LIFE ITSELF - ADIEU
WE’LL RESURRECT.
LOVER AWAKE - ENCHANTMENT TO MAKE - LOVER EMBRACE
THE SPRING IS COOL - REFRESHES STILL. THE KISSES TUMBLING FROM YOUR LIPS
YOU GIVE TO ME , YOU DON’T HOLD BACK. ........................................................................
THERE’S NOTHING COY ABOUT THIS BOY. I AM YOUR MAN.
THERE’S NOTHING COY ABOUT THIS BOY. I AM YOUR MAN.
AND SO TO BLISS - LOVER AWAKE - ENCHANTMENT TO MAKE - LOVER EMBRACE
THE WELL IS LINED - TO DRINK IS SWEET, I WASH MY HEAD DOWN TO MY FEET
ANTICIPATION BE THY NAME, THERE’S NOTHING HERE I NEED EXPLAIN
SO WONDROUS IS YOUR SIRENS SONG, IT SINGS TO ME
SO WONDROUS IS YOUR SIRENS SONG, IT CALLS........
AWAKE AWAKE, LOVER AWAKE, ENCHANTMENT TO MAKE, LOVER EMBRACE...
I don't think I've wandered too far from the original article but I'm not sure if I should write after wine.
Derek, the second line reads"Every time you talk, it's only business.
But one day she says, “Here's my cellphone number. Call anytime.”
That means she has business minded fellow who she sees as potential client. After all I did not read that HE told her she's beautiful on one of his visit to the bank. She has her interest which must not always be what we expect, just as the man has his own contrary interest which might be just to take her to bed. Whose interest is justifiable? One who wants to make business or one who wants to make sex?
Two wrongs can never make a right!
Everyone plays his game to his interest. Life has not given anone a fair chance, so people must take chances here there appear.I want to say she took her chance to see if it will yield equity loan deal- that's her interest and I see nothing wrong about it.
AH HA HA HA!
This is hilarious.
I love it.
And it's true. Gives me food for thought.
Thanks for the reminder. So often we as sincere artists forget about "The motive". Although we have to watch it ourselves since we're always "self promoting"!
Business and pleasure. If business is more important-be fair, be firm,
be friendly, but never be familiar.
Nice cleavage shot behind the cabernet!
So the real meaning is to be honest with your client. It won't work to entrap them. Let them learn to know who you are and what you do. If they like you as a person they will most likely do business with you especially if your product is worth the purchase.
I just got two emails today from my insurance company and a jobbank...both wishing me a happy birthday (since it´s in their database), and offering to give me a free trial of some of their premium services. If more companies start doing this, it could get really annoying.
HELL TO THE MOTHER FRICKIN' YEAH!!!
best post yet.
bingo! right on as usual
I made that same type of comment directly on Facebook on time. A few agreed with me, but, not that many.
I simply said that there was far to much self promotion on Facebook.
I think promotion is great, nothing happens without it, but, as the old saying goes that there is a time and a place for everything.
There really is nothing social about being asked to be asked to buy my cd, or here is were we are playing, and we are really good, and you should be there. If you listen, everybody is really good, and they all think you should be there, why?, so they can try to sell you something.
But, here is the question, how many cd's have you sold to other bands or musicians, that think they are better than you anyway?
Not that many I would bet. So, that is not really your customer anyway, so why waste time trying to sell them something.
That is all
That banker sounds like our president, transparent. Transparent but you don't see anything untill its too late
I do not try to railroad people in to buy my cd's, but if a guy has interest in me. I do talk about my cd's for sell and the venues that I will be performing soon. I know of many musician mostly the men who uses their female fans They flirt and do what-ever.to have them to come to their gigs to hype up the attendance at the clubs. If I am actually interested in the guy that flirts with me, I do sell him a cd but will give him my personal number. L.O.L.
Ms.Dimples
"Waiting On Love
Once upon a time, there were stores (yes real buildings) were people did business. They had business hours and the owners interacted in their community.
You might see the hardware store owner in the restaurant and say, "Bob, I'll be over to get some fencing on Tuesday" and all would be well. Or Bob might even be bold and say "John, I couldn't help but notice that your cows got out of the pasture the other day. Are you going to need some fencing?"
The relationship in the community (Rural or Urban) was more important than selling something. Everyone truly cared about the others around them. The community helped them and they helped the community, and you didn't do things to upset that relationship. There were always 'money grubbers' but they were the exception and not the rule.
The scary thing about this is the girl's drive to sign you up no matter what you think of her. She obviously doesn't care if you never talk to her again, and she really can't be concerned if you go to another bank. She wanted a sale.
As a global economy emerges and TRUE communities become more scarce, businesses (or bank employees) are free to pitch and pitch and pitch.
If they make 100 people mad because of the pitch, so what. It's not like they live next door.
They know that the 101st pitch may be the one that bites the bait!
We are seeing the result of a society who's only drive is wealth (or success).
Kind of scary.
I think that's a damaging way to do marketing because when people realize what's going on they probably won't do business with them even if the product is good.
I unfortunately don't have time to read all of the comments here, so this may have been said already. But the key for companies to successfully use social media has nothing to do with "hanging out," not unless you're talking about a cool record store (or bar or some other "cool" establishment) creating an online extension of the already-fun experience.
The key for most companies (think AT&T, Kraft Foods) is to create an environment where people using their product/service can communicate about ways to have a better experience.
And though companies hate this - 5 years ago it was truly unimaginable, today it's the norm - a place financed by the company where customers can gripe and the company can then do its best to respond effectively to those gripes and turn those dissatisfied customers into happy customers.
Just to clarify, when I said "financed by the company" I was referring to whatever social media (message board) they might have on their website. Obviously they're not funding groups on Facebook and Twitter discussion threads.
We are all paying the price for living in a society where the profit motive is at the center of our culture.
I've had those kind of dates before. And the last time a girl gave me her phone number I found myself hitched.
One of the many reasons artists who can do so have a team of others working for them.
Very much agree with Rejyna's comment (116). It is all about games and true intentions. And the guy in the story simply overestimated his potential
Which happens 
Max
I think the girl at the bank really likes the guy that came in, she's just a little shy, conservative, doesn't want it to look like she's only interested in the guy, that there is a diversion is a good thing because she doesn't look desperate. So, she probably really is sincere, the fact that she brought up business is only a nervous reaction, or something to talk about so it isn't all just focused on "the crush"Because in reality, she probably has a crush on the guy. And besides, why not mix business with pleasure?
So much in modern life is done under the pretense of friendship or caring in order to sell or more often rip people off. Examine the methods used.
Think of the people who were victims of the sub prime mortgage deception. Many of them liked and trusted the person who sold to them.
Miller lite Beer has teams of young attractive women who sell cheap chemically laced beer at bars, nightclubs, sporting events, etc. Ours is a culture saturated in sex and if you are not aware, awake, conscieous beyond your five senses you are most likely queing in the beer line with dozens of dopey guys. However the bank story is yet a different ploy using the same old methods. Thanks for sharing.
You NAILED it.
Chris Brogan said yesterday, it's like I reach out to shake your hand and you're sticking your tongue in my mouth. Whoa! Slow down.
Nice post.
We all need to remember that at some point we are all in sales, even though it may be far removed. People engaged in retail to generate revenue ultimately must generate revenue, so EVEN IF they like you the conversation will degenerate back to the business. It is a fact of business life, I'm afraid.
Yeah; truthful is much better. But many just see potential money. They don't see value in strong,long-term relationships.
right on dude
I skimmed through some of the responses and wonder about who is not getting it. Isn't this an analogy and example to us independent artists who actually run our own business as entertainers. To deliver what is promised and not be fake about it. Oh and by the way Thanks for caring. # 17 took the words right out of my mouth. I look forward to your messages.
Nice little story with an important lesson.
Is this the result of an experience you recently had?
That is why it is always best to
have promotional samples of your
articles to give people,that way
you show that you are interested
in helping them and not just
after their money.
As usual,very good article Derek!
hank
Sell the girl your personality in the 15 minutes she is trying to bluff you, then she will be sold on who you are and next thing you know...she's found something better than she came to offer, a relationship
So very true. Coincidentally I wrote a blog post just a few minutes ago that touches on a similar subject.
http://evolutionofpr.com/?p=208
It's amazing how few companies "get it" when it comes to interacting with consumers. People are sick of commercials, so PVR/Tivo came in to save the day. So why would people want to be advertised to on a constant basis on Twitter and Facebook? It has to be a two-way street.
She is a desperado, using deceptive measures to increase sales.This is not taught in a professional selling class. She
has decided to do sales her way.
To this extent, I feel the same way about bands on myspace. They send out these friend requests, and suggest that they MAY have heard YOUR music, and then all you're seeing in your inbox is ads from them.
That strategy doesn't work for random bands you don't know, just like it doesn't work for bank-tellers.
We've gotta get into something real, man!
So this isn't about Social media at all. It is about honesty. What a concept.
Hi Derek,
I seem to have the opposite issue. I've gotten to feel like I'm spending too much time creating sincere relationships with very little business return.
I'm finding most people are as guilty as businesses at perpetrating a fraud. They'll tell you they love your music but only stream the life out of your music and never buy.
I guess to a certain degree it's all fair. It takes a lot of relationships to earn anything, but there is a limit to how many people you can truely communicate with...
I try to just keep it real with everyone I deal with...
Dennis
What a precise analogy!
The problems they have is in the part of being real AND interesting at the same time.
I they are so shallow in the relationships they create that in the moment they want to be real they start to be clear that they look like crap.
Which turns all this into the search for the answer to this question "Profound, real and profitable?" http://sebastianconcept.com/brandIt/25/september/2009/profound-real-and-profitable
Derek thank you for starting this conversation man. Really.
That's why I enjoy havin' lunch with ya! A perfect mix of friendship food & business.
Yu know it's perfect when you don't even realize business is being done!
I joined a local social club to meet more people. When asked about my interests I said playing the ukulele. I was looking for someone to play with so i offered FREE lessons...which made me very happy because I now had new friends who were thrilled to learn...bottom line is a win/win...I teach, they learn. We started doing volunteer gigs locally and are planning to expand to paid ones shortly. One door opens another, especially when you love what you do!
Ok Derek, Here's my offer. I don't work at a bank. I won't try to offer to loan you money. If we go out to dinner, I'll let you pay. That's the way it works in life. Then if I find you interesting, maybe we'll do lunch again. There is no instant romance and there is no instant success. Usually. However, back to what this is really about which is selling music; how do I get you to listen to my music if I don't bring it up? People usually don't come knocking on my door and ask "Hey, do you happen to have a band that I could hire to play my party saturday night?"
Well, in the olden days I was taught that NOTHING happens until someone SELLS something! It is just the reality of existence. Of course, in the music industry (as in recording & publishing) one can appear to be generous and GIVE away the music, BUT still own the copyright & publishing, which is the way we really make money.
So, nothing is easy!
Best wishes
Gary
You're still the most thoughtful guy I"hang" with on the web. Amen.
Michelle
I've been duped by this ploy called "Creative Marketing". I'm a firm believer in "Say what you mean and mean what you say". A product should sell itself, and one shouldn't have to sell out their integrity in order to make a buck!
c'est la vie...networking purposes can be a fine line in this economy...all depends on and of which ladders people may be willing to climb and the level of risk they are prepared to take, including what constitutes and defines 'success' for oneself personally and professionally ...communication of intentions are a key factor
Yikes! That's terrible to play with someone like that! Who are these people?!
That's what I like about you, Derek. You always keep it so real. I'm tired of the blatant self-promotion that happens on Facebook (just one example). It's relentless from some people. I'm always tempted to 'hide' them, but I figure they might come up with something interesting at some point, so I just glance and scroll. It's tiresome.
Thanks for your insights... they are appreciated!!
Are you sure you didn't give the impression that you're all business yourself?
Did you give her flowers when you met at the restaurant?
Did you tell her how pretty she is?
If people think that it's always about you... what do you expect?
Hypothetically speaking ;)
ya. that's when you tell her ok, ya.. I'm interested.. tell her some outrages amount you have to invest.. celebrate her sale with some victory drinks take her home and do the do, then when you wake up remind her how it sucks to be a shark and send her on her way.
or.. you could just tell her no thanks. A lot of people and businesses are nuts and will stop at nothing to make a buck. i really dislike the whole car salesman approach of pushy and the sneaky bullshitter. but what are you going to do?
Hey, i stumbled on a book yesterday with this famous koan of Dogen's:
"Why are you lighting a stick of incense?"
"I have experienced the dropping off of body and mind."
"You have indeed dropped body and mind! Body and mind have been dropped!
"Don't patronize me".
"I'm not."
"Show me."
"This is body and mind dropped", demonstrating.
Dogen then humbled himself before his master, showing respect and gratitude.
"'That's "dropping dropped,"' added Ju-ching", Dogen's master.
-------------
The "saying" is only part of the "showing", and it is interesting to see the connection between Wittgenstein's distinction between these terms and this ancient koan, both relating (as always) to the issues of credibility and the use of the contextual word "company" above - the distinction between "company for dinner", and "company" as in: "can i interest you in a home equity loan?"
Dropping dropped Rises Up.
I'm not sure the analogy is a terribly accurate one. To be contacted on Facebook or Twitter, you generally first must 'follow' or 'become a fan of' that business. So presumably you've made the first effort and given them permission to pitch to you. Maybe I'm too cynical, but what did you think you were signing up for when you followed a business on a social media network?
Can you give a more specific example of an instance where you were tricked?
It's TRULY a balance you have to find in order to make sure that you are genuinely connecting with people, and keeping your business objectives a priority. It's REALLY hard and time-consuming to keep up with everyone on Facebook, MySpace (which I actually don't care much about anymore since MySpace has become more garbage than anything lately... Facebook facilitates more genuine relationships), Twitter, LinkedIn, and all the others you might be into. I used to be like this woman - it was all about me, me, me. And it ended up turning out just like that woman... people were turned off. And I have changed to be more OTHER-focused, creating friendships with people, networking, and creating new projects with others. And the beautiful thing is, the more you "put yourself out there," the more those people who really DO care and want to be a part of your success rise to the top and end up helping you, or, the two of you work together to help each other. I still struggle with balancing out the personal time vs. networking time, but it has become much easier to decide the priority since I have become so busy lately. I do spend time making sure I get to know people the best I can, so that when I do reach out to them, they know I am genuine, and they also "get" that I can't spend as much time as I would like with them, because I have a show that night that I have to prep for, or something else I am working on that day that I have to get back to. And I don't have to do a "sales pitch" with them, they fully understand that I have something to sell, and I never have to mention it. If they know about me, they ask about my music, they tell me about a friend who owns a bar that I could perform at, etc etc etc.
It's like, if you just put it out there about the fact that you are a musician; ALWAYS be wearing that hat, and also ALWAYS be OTHER-focused, you will not come across like the woman in this story. It's enough that you have e-mail addresses of people so you can tell them about what you have to offer/what you're doing. It's totally another to call them and act like you really want to have dinner with them when all you want is to sell them something. How rude!!!!!!! And what a waste of everyone's time!!!
Yeah... say what you mean and mean what you say... you may make short term gains through dishonesty and deceit, but your long term integrity will cost you much more
Dang, no wonder I have a 2nd Mortgage, a CD account, Money Market, an Auto Loan, a BofA credit card, and a safe deposit box. Just kidding, great article, Mr. Sivers!
There's nothing wrong with selling, just be real! What if she had said something like "Here's my phone number give me a call anytime, you know I am a banker so I'm probably gonna try to sell you a home equity loan."
Hahahahaha! Brilliant! I totally agree! My other pet peeve is when someone does something for you as a favor you didn't even ask for and then, at some point down the road says, 'I did this for you, so you owe me this...' Then, even if you had WANTED to do that thing before, you wouldn't want to do it anymore. Like the old hand on the back of the head thing. For me, I always GIVE favors. No expectations. Where is the favor if you don't? Otherwise, it is a barter. As for being chatted up by bank teller who then tries to sell you something ... sheer ick!
I use the social media sites, but I am by no means, one to 'hang out' on there. I don't get the silly games people are all playing and I think most of the quizzes are stupid and basically set you up for spam attacks.
What I do get out of the social network sites is the constant updates from people, some who are friends and some who are acquaintances. I use these sites to let people know what I'm doing, where I'm playing, etc. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm pretty much like that in real life, too.
However, there is not a lot of the normal interaction you would have in an email or telephone conversation. This could be my age showing, but these sites say theyre social, but they're actually more isolating than anything. Sure, I know what so-and-so is doing or working on, but I don't get to TALK to this individual about his or her project.
If you look at the tweets I've sent, you'd probably never know the full story of what went on in the studio while I was recording "Nightfall" nor, would you get any perspective on my felings towards the overall project. There's no way to do that in 120 chracters or less and I'm not going to even try.
My point is that the close we get on these so-called 'networks' the farther apart we drift physically. If one is to be an entertainer, one should be engaged with those he or she wishes to entertains. Social networking's primary function is advertising. This is why banks, et. al. are using them. Do not be fooled by virtual interaction.
Yes, I realize I'm becoming an old fart...
I mean I "totally agree" with the idea that the original post is right in not liking that, not that it is fine if you say upfront you might try to do a hard sell on them if you go on a date.
haha. great analogy.
This is Indicative of the FACT that
Society is filled with aggressive, deceptive Sharks that are batting for the other Side!
GARRET SOMERS
Everybody in the world is selling something. If you work for someone else, you are selling your time, energy and skills. If your boss no longer wants to buy them, you have to go out and sell them to someone else.
Even you loafers who are mooching off your parents are selling something. And you who are on welfare or who draw "disability" checks when you are not disable, are selling something. What are you selling? SYMPATHY. If everyone stopped feeling sorry for you, you'd have to get off your lazy ass and sell something else. Such as time, energy, and skills (if you have any), or maybe CDs if you're lucky.
Simple yet so true!
Everyone seems to have a hidden agenda when a product is in sight.
The competition out there forces people to try new things, but what they are missing entirely is the reason for their business venture. Many people are just looking to make money, while others are following their passion. If you love what you do, and it serves the needs of others, then you don't need to resort to nasty little tricks.
Well,if the date covers 1/2 of the cost of the drinks. And the loan is a good one. That's if I needed a Loan. Then I would stick with the idea of it being a good thing.
That's so true. People are so fed up with BS of all sorts that nowadays you only stand a chance if you're real (unless you've mastered your art of BS to perfection, of course
If she goes home with me- then it is mixing business with pleasure-sounds ok for me (the guy), kw
Derek, it should be fairly clear to any thinking person that banks care only about obscene amounts of money for the people at the top. I know that's not what you're addressing but I had to get that out there.
I'm terrible at sales and I'm the world's worst person to try and market something to. When I still read dead tree newspapers, I was always amazed when whichever wife or girlfriend I was with actually read the ads.
All that said, sometimes the unexpected can be good. Yesterday, for example, the guy who bought my music festival and now runs it came out to my house in the country. He'd been angling to come out for a few weeks, and I'd been stalling because I wasn't feeling particularly people friendly.
Anyway, he came for the day. We ate. We played some music. Then we talked. Turns out he is interested in producing one of my musical comedies. It took him awhile to get around to it, but apparently that's his way.
I guess the moral of this story is that people are okay but banks (and most corporations) suck.
uke jackson
get a loan
get layed
So true, Wells Fargo cut my credit line by $8ooo.oo and then I got a call telling me what a valuble customer I am and how I need to get Wells Fargo insurance for my assests, I let the suck up know where to stick his plan and the free toaster!
You made a point there, Derek.
It's ok to ask a person's motive
isnt it?
Everyone has a motive, whether it be selfish or unsefish.
So,I remember the days when ever any of us got together it was "do you want to hear my new tune?" ...and everybody had a new tune, or a new play, or a new something. Now days with world wide communication at our finger tips, it is like the world has become one big garage sale, and everything just keeps going around.
In the case of your example, I think she had every right to offer a loan deal, and he had every right to refuse....He had every right to pursue her further at dinner, and she had every right to refuse...."God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
thanks,
Michael Mc Ginnis
Derek,
It's pretty bad when marketing companies are reading Sun Tzu.
Having labored as a filmmaker in various posts for a decade and a half in Hollywood, then leaving the place in disgust, then taking up composing and performing just as downloading reared its head, the last thing I can bear is more in-sincerity in business and greasers, or "social facilitators" as they like to name themselves. I think we are all sick of it.
I have always had a problem with "marketing". The implication is that this is one-way: I'll sell you on why you need me. I don't need to know you, your business, your ethics, your intent. You cannot separate the person from the profession, or the prospects from the perceptions. If you think I am out to seel you something, that is all you will see. It's quantum thinking.
My preference is to communicate, a two-way path that opens the potentials to discover opportunities for both parties, likely ones that would not be there if either party were to walk in with preconceived notions of outcome.
If you are looking to talk business, then be direct. "I'd like to talk to you about the possibility of doing business", followed by "This is who we are, what we do, how we do it, why we do it (this way)" -- straight and honest. Then ask who they are, what they do, how, and why.
Lastly, shut up and listen. If the opportunity is there, it will show.
Every human interaction will benefit the person who started the interaction in some way. So what you're saying here is a mute point. Yes the other person wants something. Even if they want your friendship, they are still thinking of themselves in that relationship and how it can benefit them.
This presupposes that the banks are practicing age discrimination when they hire customer service employees which is illegal in the first place.
there's alot to be said on this - totally get your point and I agree. It's such an eye-roller when a company of sorts reaches out to you on the pretex it wants to have a relationship with you. Do they think we CANT see the dollar signs swirling in their eyes?
This can actually happen in reverse as well. I have a friend who sells a great product and we'll hook up for lunch and just when I think we were just hooking up to catch up, at the end of the lunch she asks me if I'll book a show or if i can buy some product to help her reach a quota. It's pretty disappointing since we ARE in a long term relationship.
I think it all comes down to your personal boundaries whether companies or friends don't seem to have any qualms about using you for their financial gain. I've been forced to increase my boundaries with my friend and it has certainly caused me to think twice when she asks me to lunch. Our friendship has ebbed somewhat over the last years but we still stay in touch, just not like we used to.
I would say "I'll tell you tomorrow morning."
Sometimes we learn it the tough way, desperation is the excuse behind it.
We need that sale, we need that costumer, that client, that fan... And next thing we know is, we blew it.
Thank God some people out there have a heart bigger then their social mind, otherwise it would be cruel!
Thanks for the reminder Derek!
Long live the 14 minute dinner!!
It took me 15 #%^&*!@# minutes to scroll down to make a !@#$%^& comment!
Oh, and by the way, my CDs are available from: www.thecan.com.au/markpengilly
If business isn't peronal, its just us screwing each other, usally out of greed.
By "potential crushes" in the context of the metaphor, or even in the literal sense, it seems to imply the customer would be happy staying forever in the crush-phase, never getting to the "pie" (pardon my own metaphor). Seems like a lose-lose situation no matter what, since the latter scenario will also eventually lead to frustration.
My motto: Turn out quality, and let that be your overriding goal. Then you can conduct your marketing more as a sincere informational campaign, and the viewer will appreciate as that as they're not fooled into a product (or art, or relationship), but getting the honest truth and a quality service / product / person / character / pie etc. pe. pe.
Not disagreeing w/ you, just adding my hard-earned 2 cents ;-)
P.S.
-- Derek
Is there a way to get notified if you reply to ones post? I usually close the page when done reading, but now am curious on this one........ will refresh tomorrow morning I guess.
Keep up the great blogs!
Sorry, no fancy notifications for comment replies. I liked your previous comment but don't have anything to add to it.
It sounds like you all want the world as your oyster without any strings attached. Just remember you get back about what you contribute.
Say it again Derek, they didn't here you! This is the best lil Country Club going, please it's not a Trade Show....
You were invited on a date, so your interests were self serving-the need for companionship, perhaps more. She invited you to dinner-- you took it as a date, again your interests were self serving. When she asked you about a loan, you overreacted and assumed your self serving date was a plot, not just nervous conversation. You were offended because your plot to date her was disillusioned.Sometimes dinner is just, lets eat. But all human interaction is self serving, even if you give an anonymous donation to some to a good cause, it is often rewarded with a feeling of having done something good. I'M TRYING HARD TO IMAGINE A SELFLESS ACT. I have spent the last two years and nearly all my money developing a center for the disabled. I have ran my debt up and another business into the ground to build something beautiful for people with disabilities ---like my daughter- ahh the connection, for my daughter- a self serving connection? I don't know?
Nothing Sacred. The only God is money even in my church. Some days I reflect on the issues raised here and cant help but conclude I was sent into the WRONG world. Moneytize! Moneytize!! Buy! Buy!! Buy!!!Moneytize this. ----- Peace.
It is all about trust. Life is about trust. Break that bond, and just like with a marriage, it is all over and cannot ever be reset to its former level.
NEVER fool your client.
Take this from one who built a fabulous company on customer service to the entertainment industry in NYC. None better.
Paul
It's true. People are wise and bored to corporate schemes.
-----------------------------------
Now you have read my nice comment please go and buy my music at:
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/338832/bump-and-thumper/bump-and-thumper-moth-music-ben-and-tina-henderson.htm
-----------------------------------
You SEE? No one will fall for that will they?
Sigh. Back to the drawing board... ;)
Does your company really want to hang out with me?
Sure man, why not? Stop in at our studio sometime if you get around our neck of the woods. We shall grab some cold beer, pizza, and chips.
Really - I ain't kidding either.
Sure come on over, we'll fire up the amps, ice down the beer and knock the dust off the rafters. So just let me know what date works for you. Oh by the way; have you given any thought to that home equity loan?
Let's get one thing straight..everything is social networking..we are born into this system in order to survive..we all social network..at the same time some of us are more pushy than others, there really is no need to be pushy if you want to sell something open the space between you and the person in front of you on THEIR TERMS, be yourself, they'll connect, the rest is allowing them to accept the gift you are selling.
Tom Acton
I feel exactly that way when you wait on CDBaby's call line where a very friendly and pretty voice says "we know that it stinks to be on hold for so long, but WE LOVE YOU"? That's more insulting than saying "please stay on the line but understand that we will never answer/return your calls or e-mails (and I'm talking about dozens of them). I truly do miss it when you used to run the company, Derek. I never had these types of problems then.
I just sat throught a long webinar (after weeks of being wooed by a booking agency) that talked about NEVER getting involved with anyone who requires money from you for their services....other than the percentage that they get for booking you. THEN they asked us to sign up for a trial period for only $185.00 (registration fee) and $77.00 per month for six months. DUH?
It was about 3:00 A.M. when the lady rolled up to me in lovely Jag. with her pimp in the front seat. She rolled down the window, leaned out and said; " You have two fives for a Twenty?" I replied; " How many Twenties have you got? " She smiled and said; " A few." I said, " Try Seven-Eleven. They are open all night long; and, dont forget to smile for the Camera." The pimp said something to her. She threw a curse at me and peeled out of the wet parking lot fish tailing all the way. That's the way it goes, and it's all around you. Art = Pure Selfless Labour Of Love. If you get wealthy, that is only by the way, that is not and has never been the purpose of the calling of The Muse. How am I going to eat? How am I supposed to feed my family. - " Observe the birds of the air and the ants of the fields, consider their ways and be wise " or something like that.
lol @ Don's post (219). That's exactly what popped into my head. -_-
Okay, I've got a lot of comments on this one.
First off I had the bank girl flirting with me scenario when I opened my business account & she called me asking about how my business was going & how happy I was with my account over the next couple months. It made me feel really awkward, but if it had been some dude I probably wouldn't have had a problem with it.
As far as the always selling thing, part of the problem is that my music/career is inseparable from my life. 90% of my conversations will go into music even if they start out about sports, politics, or religion.
As far as selling on social networks. Well, my Facebook & Twitter updates are not going to be much more than updates about my music/art. I don't have kids, so what else is there to put up? If people don't want the feed they don't have to have it, it's cool. MySpace is where things get a little trickier because while (at least for now) Facebook & Twitter are still social networks mainly for individuals, MySpace does seem to be a place for people to build their fan bases. A lot of people are too lazy to use the site properly. There's no reason to ever post an ad for a show as a comment to someone who doesn't live in the city where the show is (& even then it is kinda slimy). I very rarely ask for new "friends" as I don't think the "friends" number is relevant. What we all want is fans. So the trick is to develop fans.
When I think about the bands I call myself a fan of I feel an emotional connection & interest in them as individuals. So how do you get people to have that interest in you? I think blogging & providing constant new content is a good place to start getting personal interest is a good place to start. It does get a little creepy at times when someone I really don't know who is a fan has some personal knowledge of me I've let slip, but that's just the way it goes being a "celebrity" to someone.
Let's face it, if Derek just was a guy who started CD Baby & didn't blog, would we know/care what he's up to? I mean, what's up with the guys from MP3.com or the guy from Napster? Ten years ago they were as important to us as Derek & in as many of interviews that made us interested in them.
So I think the secret is getting people interested & the more people are interested the more likely the 1% that are willing to give you some financial support that will help you be able to afford a burrito.
# 223 - Very well put. But I'don't think this post is about your type of usie for social media. You are using it the right way. You are sort of like the girl at a bar who talks to someone to see if there are mutual interests.
It's always seemed to me that the best networking was achieved by participation. Networking alone isn't participation. The energy of participation attracts...participation. I guess this is also known as "feeding the scene."
I try so hard not to make friends, unless she is just fine as hell. I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR NEW FRIENDS. I am on a mission to success, and those that help me get there will eventually become good friends.
There's a thin line between feeling passionate for what you have, being what someone else needs- and just seeing them as part of the numbers game.Take botanical supplements for instance; you are certain it's great and helpful and everyone needs it, but then again you need to make sales. I think you have to be real and honest-take a sincere interest in people. Be a good listener and realize that no may mean not at this time.Learn to be kind.
i can hang with any body i just want it legel,i got a name for a new bussness but i need to get a dba.first befor i do anything
ill get it but in time.
LOL about this story b/c I can so picture it happening.
In the business world, this is a normal practice. Most people only want to deal with you if they can benefit from you.
Dana said:
The social networking sites are really some great ways to communicate, and a great way for people to feel "included" or "in the know." That said, I wish some of the people would only post when they have something significant to say as opposed to the people who actually took the concept of twittering to heart and post inconsequentials about what they're having for lunch ALL DAY LONG!!! (Sorry, but that makes me nuts. Unfortunately, other than "hiding" ALL of their posts, I don't know how to drop them without hurting their feelings. Hurting their feelings could be bad for my husband's business.)
I don't understand why some of the people who've asked to be my friend on Facebook bothered asking, but then I'm not doing the business thing (much) on my page, except where it impacts on what I--personally--am doing during the course of the day.
That said, though, I get really annoyed with links that look like "news" which turn out to be solicitations for for-profit sites and survey "requests" which turn out to be produced by cell phone companies simply as a way to collect my cell phone number--while worming their oily way into not only my own personal information, but latching onto my friends' info as well. Yuck! These are the kinds of things I want to know about up front; it's called truth in advertising. If it's an ad, I want to know it.
And, on the third hand, people ARE complex. I have to go on the assumption that the moderator of this particular discussion-du-jour group (Derek) had some kind of long-term business-type goal in mind when he started blogging, and that's perfectly all right. We knew this when we signed up to start receiving these email links, and if we didn't like them we'd unsubscribe. Occasionally I wish I could put my comments directly under a particular person's post, but since most of us have some kind of website locatable (sp?) through Google, if we really want to carry the conversation further, we can contact them privately.
Overall, the benefits of sharing ideas with people who I never would have met on any other user group than this has been invaluable. It's been interesting seeing that people who have also produced their own cd's are just as frustrated by the marketing aspects as me, and it's been interesting to see the back and forth of ideas; what can be a small crumb of knowledge on one person's table can be a feast on mine.
Keep doing what you're doing, Derek; it all helps.
Hey now, Derek ...
That picture of the glass pretty much covers it. Is it half-full or half-empty? It's all in how one chooses to view it.
Your example of a home equity loan is a good one. And, that exampled lady certainly didn't use truthful sales techniques to spark [your] interest. Ahh, but the fool steps right into it thinking it's more than it is. Then, when the truth does surface, it's just another awakening that has to be straightened out.
You are younger than I am, Derek; so, take a few minutes to imagine several people hitting on you to do a reverse mortgage with them. Where do you think your home equity goes? Hmmm. Much more stuff to consider.
Keep up your great work, Derek.
Cheers and best,
Dennis
So she gets crossed off your list, big deal. At least her motive came out after 15 minutes and not 15 hours! And what if it turned into a real date, and you kept on with her for a while, then the relationship went south for other reasons. Would you still go to her branch any more after that?
“I've always thought anyone can make money. Making a life worth living, that's the real test.” -- Robert Fulghum
There are all sorts of annoying tactics used by companies to try to suck us in. Yeah those 'personal' ones may be pretty seriously low on the food chain. What about the ones who trick elderly people into sending money and bilking that part of our population, just preying on their vulnerabilities and loneliness?
Or how about the bank itself, making loans to people who are unlikely to be able to repay? What if you happened to be in a credit crunch and actually were needing one? It could have been your lucky night. : - )
Maybe anyone who is likely to give a pitch at any time should wear a special Pitch-Button. It could be a green smiley face with a special P on it for 'Pitch.' Or B for .....
AS PER WHAT DEREK RESPONDED TO ONE POST, DEREK WROTE:
(Many companies' “Social Media Strategy” is about appearing to be cool and part of the conversation. But they're not really interested in anything but selling.)
This is 100% correct. Take Sonicbids for instance, their relationships with members of sonicbids is ONLY about getting their money for bids that never go anywhere, the money the member pays goes right into their pockets, yet Sonicbids will continue pretending to care about the artists -aka- members.
ALL record labels "Independent and Major" have no interest in you either, their interest in is what money they can make from your talent if you have the money for them to create a false fanbase.
Years ago "back in the 50s and 60s" things were different between the record labels and the artists, look at how many shitty bands were signed and made a lot of money for themselves and for the record labels. Promotions were cheaper then, it was easier to get signed, and many bands were one hit wonders that made a lot of money for the record labels.
If you have millions to spend on yourself, it doesn't matter if you have a fanbase or not, any Major Label will sign you since you have the money to spend on yourself, regardless how shitty your music is.
Artists with no money but a ton of talent will not get anywhere, this is a fact.
It's all about the money, talent means nothing these days.
Great message here, and Derek's realistic stratergies are to be admired.
It takes work to be connected on a personal level! I just now need to work on expressing my sincere desire to sell my talents and not give them away for free. And make sure that my fans would not only benefit from being my supporters, they are going to have an amazing experience with Mykel
Hi Derek I agree with this premise whole heartedly. I am happy to say that I have been fortunate in this regard...especially in that we have connected! Thanks again..Joe
... and to the same token, we as CUSTOMERS need to not ask for a "bro deal" when talking with reps from various companies.
"C'mon pal, what can you do for me?"
But also keep in mind - there are GOOD people out there that really do care about you, your project, your finances, your car repair etc... Just because someone is friendly, don't suspect them of being 'out to get ya' .
If what you are doing is for real and your product is worthwhile, you won't have to "sell" anything to anyone. That has always been my belief system.
Hmmm, these blogs are making me do some thinking!!!
Thanks Derek and see you tomorrow at the Loft series! We can't wait to hear you...Tina
So right on, Derek.
thanks for the voice of the real!
Rae
Derek,
I know a few lovely ladies who would love to go out with you without the hidden motive of selling you a home equity loan.
Breeze
Yeah terrible situation, I suppose if it happened to me I might've joked:
...
"OK you give me the equity loan, and I'll pay you back with "interest."
While I'm not in the music or entertainment business, I find your blog to be thought-provoking and applicable across industries.
In this posting, you've hit on something that I've never understood as a consumer---why do I want to follow "you" on Twitter or be friends with "you" on Facebook? What possible reason could Lands End want to do this? What possible reason could fabric designers and fabric stores want to do this? I would love the opportunity to interact directly with designers and manufacturers to share what product I need, how a product could be improved and how I rate their product over another. So far, it's only been sales pushes.
Time to visit their websites and see if they publish their social media strategy. I doubt it.
When I'm invited next time, I think I'll ask "why?" For the businesses and products I use, I'm happy to devote my time free of charge to a relationship that is not based on sales. If that's not what they want, then I'll say no.
La collega della banca deve essere proprio cretina a parlare del suo lavoro fuori dall'orario di lavoro a cena con uno spasimante.Il mondo è pieno di cretini perciò si vive male.Si pensa al denaro anche quando si dovrebbe pensare a vivere.
couldn't agree more. I love connecting with people.
Live your lyrics kids...
Practice Audience Inclusion.
I think that social networking is an awesome tool, but has been turned into a cultist activity. The fact that I as a musician can use twitter to communicate with my fans and tell them what's going on in my daily life, allowing them to peel back the layers is absolutely awesome. In that ocasional moment where I plug something regarding my music, or ask a question of my fans, it counts. I follow musicians because I not only love there music, but love them as people. Not only do I want to know where they are playing, and if they have an album coming out soon, but I'm also interested in learning more about them as they let me in by peeking in from afar via their twitter feed. There's this social networking douchebagery that goes on to try and mask marketing behind the mantra of "Being Real." These are the people who are pimping their products out every 5 minutes, using bate and switch tactics to get me to hit their site, etc. What it boils down to is just be real. Period!!! No market research, no metrics, no anything. Just do your thing. Be brilliant. Make art, creat conversations, let people in. Let them get to know you. If they already love your music, they're interested in you already. Then, when you really have something to promote, it will count. You will be targeting the people that really care. Your true friendship with people will lead them to your products. Or maybe not. And if not, who cares, because it's all about people. I know this sounds hippy dippy, but I like to go with the thought that let the art come first and the commerse will follow. This goes as well for social networking. You already have fans. Love on them, let them in, let them see all of you, even the bad. Because of this, they won't feel like they know you, they will truely know you. And in that, they will be even more interested in telling others about your product. No longer because they love the product, but because they love you.
Great insight! Thanks! -- Derek
Sooooo f'n true, Derek! That's EXACTLY what most companies are trying to do with their social media campaigns, and it's just dishonest and ineffective.
Trying to educate them, but we're just one company...
Hi Derek -
As someone the runs social media campaigns for companies I see where you are coming from. However, there is a fine line between only talking business and just trying to get to know people.
I use a tactic I call "driven conversation." The concept means that you are engaging in real conversation and hoping to legitimately receive feedback and discussion but doing it with a purpose in mind. If you fault on the side of selling, your customer tunes you out. If you fault on the side of meaningless conversation, the relationship goes no where.
To use your example: the girl at the bank would engage you when you come to the bank to know where you generally socialize or network. She would then make it her goal to meet you out in public sometime. As you strike up a conversation she would ask you about what is important to you and if a home equity loan makes since for you. If it doesn't make since, great, she just deepened her business relationship with you. If it does make since, great, she will be happy to assist you.
This way you (the consumer) doesn't feel like you are being engaged under false pretenses but at the same time it creates a meaningful business relationship.
In the end you still don't get the girl but at least you will feel comfortable flirting with her every time you go to the bank!
Does that make since?
Thanks,
Kyle Blades
I've just opened a yoga center that's now becoming a gallery and music space, too. Our systems allow us to keep track of customer follow ups and I use it. Not to re-sell or up-sell, but to follow up and check in. We've had clients with illness or outside injury who've had to miss classes, etc. and so I check in on them. I also check in on members who've stopped attending or anytime I know that someone is making a change in their life that's pretty major. I think it's good business but also good social "being" -- social networking feels too grimy to me (I'm always editing my friends on facebook and my mailing lists). I prefer to be social and caring -- if that inspires someone to come to the studio or buy my CD, then that's amazing but purely a gift from the universe.
"It just seems to me that as long as there's a business present, people will assume they're trying to sell something."
I look at it this way... In health care, a service is offered/provided. Part of which is educating the consumer. What the consumer/patient does with that information is his/her own choice. The challenge is to provide the information in a manner that is both professional and respectful of the individual needs and personal orientation of that particular person. I hate selling something that I know that no one needs or particularly wants. I refuse to do that. I can, however, see the pros and cons of any given scenario and if the consumer is genuinely interested and requests an explanation of benefits/features (what have you) then I can provide an informed opinion regarding the pros & cons. If I am doing so with the best interests of the patient (as a client) in mind, and not really in the best interests of a particular company, then I can provide both sides or as many views of the subject as may be needed to give that individual a FAIR and well-informed perspective on the subject at hand... whatever that subject may be. I would only do so if the individual came to me directly for assistance, advice, support, information, etc.
This is where it is important to know your audience, your consumer base, and to know what it is that you are best at doing, most interested in talking about... have a passion for. If you lack a passion for the subject matter at hand, then get away from it and find something that truly interests you. Selling anyaspect of what you most enjoy to other people needs to be from a stand point of support to those who may share your interests which may be as simple as helping people understand what it is they are looking at, or understanding the options and features available. The more you understand the subject, even if it is a product, the more likely you are going to be useful as a source of information for anyone who needs such support prior to making a purchase.
The reward is in providing assistance to others who seek support, have unanswered questions, or simply find the subject matter curious and interesting.
People tend to identify their interests best by choosing clearly defined markets for whatever they simply cannot live without. Along the way, they may choose to search for information that could help refine and develop knowledge about a subject of particular interest.
One way to introduce a product to people who find that product or subject very interesting is to establish forums wherein people who share the interest may choose to participate. The forum can take any share or *form* in real life or on the Internet, but should be clearly recognizable as a source for the type of information and/or service being made available.
People do not enjoy being tricked into discussing an unsolicited topic.
"Build it, and they will come."
If you provide something/anything that people want, then they will thank you for making it available.
In this way, it is much less like selling and much more like providing a service that people need tangibly or desperately desire in the pursuance of some specific intangible need.
Healthcare, for instance, despite the monster it has become in terms of insurance... is actually a fairly new concept in the history of the world. Think about it.
Identify the needs of the people, and develop innovative ways of making it available ... and they will come.
Yeah I'd like to see specific solutions instead of more criticism - eg. let's say you have lots of helpful free content youtube vids, helpful facebook fan page/twitter posts/links, . When/how do you post links to your paid products, promotions, etc. Or do you hope they check out your profile and your website at some point.
I guess I’m going to be one of
the few people that disagrees
with your analogy of the scenario. Unfortunately, I believe ego played more of a role in your perception of the woman.
You assumed she liked you because she gave you her number and said call me anytime. Your purpose was to get closer to her on an
emotional or intimate level.
However, her intentions were still on a business level. Tricking you would have been stringing you
along on several dates before revealing she wanted you to consider a home equity loan.
In my opinion she did nothing wrong. However, since the date/meeting was nothing
like what you expected your
“ego” maybe blaming her for nothing.
Derek, I believe you are a highly intelligent man that shares a lot of wisdom. I have learned from many of your blogs. However,
this one “in my opinion” was driven more by your bruised ego and not from being misled
or tricked by this woman.
Anyway, I just wanted to share
my perspective. I hope I do not offend you or anyone else. We
all are entitled to have an opinion and I respect yours.
God Bless!
hahaha hats off! It’s such a Great peace of work. I really admire the way u describe the main point and your blogs are always short and solid. Well you are absolutely right that’s what happened to my very close mate, lol. He literally started hating that company and decided to not believe on any company’s employee.
Awesome insights,
I used to want to be "the man" and have the benefits of being popular without doing the work to get there.
I am now focussing on actually having something of value to offer people, and doing the real ground work to get there.
Ricardo Rae.