Nobody's going to help you. Does that encourage you or discourage you?
2008-12-18
Nobody's going to help you. It's all up to you.
Does hearing that discourage you or motivate you?
The reason I'm asking is that a musician friend emailed me two questions last week (December 2008):
How can I find a great/major booking agent?
And how can I find an investor? I need someone to invest $500,000 into my band for radio, touring, recording, videos, PR, payola, etc.
My answer was:
Sorry, but when it comes to this stuff, I think the healthiest attitude is the most cynical one:
There are no great agents that would want to take you on unless you're already earning $5000 a month gigging, so that their 10% cut (only $500) would be worth their time.
There are absolutely no investors that would invest in a musician now. Even solid profitable businesses with customers and employees can't find investors these days, (December 2008), so just assume you will not.
So: No agent. No investor. No one's going to help you until you're already successful. So how do you get successful with no help from anyone?
How can you make $5000/month from gigging, so that an agent will be interested enough to take it to the next level? Only you know.
How can you call so much attention to your music online, that a company will gamble on you, and finance the expensive offline campaign?
Those are the healthy questions to ask.
Unfortunately that's not the answer he wanted.
To him, my answer was really discouraging.
To me, (if I was receiving that answer from someone else), it would be really encouraging.
I like being reminded that nobody's going to help me - that it's all up to me. It puts my focus back on the things I can control - not waiting for outside circumstances.
But it got me wondering: is that just me?
When you think that nobody's going to help you, does that encourage you or discourage you?
I'm really interested to hear everyone's honest answer. Please leave a reply in the comments here. Thanks!
No one is going to help and that fine.
Most importantly thats to be expected.
Make it happen for yourself.
Like buying your first car with your own money.
If you KNOW this, you'll work harder and appreciate it more.
YOU re trying to make YOU succeed.
So do it!
I've always been a self starter, self taught in everything, etc. So I would find it not encouraging exactly, but I'd see it as an opportunity to rise to the challenge... again.
I have encountered mostly resistance throughout my musical career. But I am just persistent, stubborn, sick and twisted enough to use it as fuel for my madness.
I've gotten used to not relying on the kindness of strangers. Fortunately my overheads aren't high, either.
it's all up to me, so i'm with you on this. My success is dependent on my choices and how much I want to give. It would be easy to have someone help you, but would that make you a better musician, performer, etc? Probably not.
It discourages me even though i want to be someone it encourages. I think I have been waiting for the hand of god or some other form of fantasy like I use to read in magazines when I was a kid. Life has taught me that most people are like me, buisy thinking about themselves. I see you as someone who has a remarkable grasp of reality. You are someone who has found great inspiration in reality. I want what you have. I know I must find it for myself, in myself..............Honestly and painfully truthful,.......david
I think it lights a fire under my ass! At first I may feel a little discouraged, then rebellion kicks in. Kind of a "If you won't help me, I'll do it my damn self" attitude.
As a music consultant, all I can do is listen to the artists, offer a little guidance, but ultimately, it will be up to the musician to make their career happen!
At first it feels discouraging, but once I'm over the self pity & "poor me" conversation, there's a sense of freedom in knowing that it's all up to me really. This puts me into action & really forces me to get clear about "what I really want", especially 'cause "nobody will help"
I used to get depressed at that thought but now I am not only ok with it, but I think it is one of the rules in life which you have to learn, accept and then move on with it in a proactive way (as Stephen Covey mentions!)
Amen Derek! I think the constant reminder is a good one, especially as we get ready to start a new year.
I'd find such a response to be very empowering. Imagine... I can do all this myself!
I will be very honest with this answer. I would like to think that im a self starter and motivator, but im only half. When I initially started making music, I was by myself. Never learned an instrument but came from a musical family. I learned to record and mix (to the best of my ability) on my own. When I held the dream of making it in music (early 2k) I always felt I lacked a team. I feel its necessary to have a team behind you or at least a second party/partner to motivate and bounce ideas off of and provide an added benefit to the bottom line. So in short, even though it sounds sad. I feel I need a partner (which would be considered as help to me). Great post.
I think your response was real and realistic. For those who had already come to the same answer, it would be validating and encouraging. For those who had not, it would seem harsh and discouraging. I think it is great advice personally.
To quote GI Joe, "knowing is half the battle." I think once you acknowledge that no one is really itching to help, you're empowered.
That's encouraging on its own. Combine it with the reality that once you build it from the ground up and make it work, then you really can thrive (quite happily) without (insert whatever you think would be helpful: agent, investor, label)...
True enough, however, as the saying goes, "no man is an island."
It takes heart, guts and soul (and a boatload of talent) to dig deep and create something remarkable. Only then, with a generous unselfish attitude, will people support you and begin to lift you up.
People will help you if you believe in yourself first. They will see it and believe and want to be a part of it.
There are no shortcuts - I've spent 20 years trying all of them...
Hey Derek,
I've always been very much a "hands on, do-it-myself" kinda guy in most (if not all areas) of my life. Sometimes this has been detrimental to my progress but most times it means that stuff gets done. I think a small part of me used to hope that I would catch a big break and struggled a little with how unfair life can be. BUT, once I got over that and realised that my life and career are my problem and nobody else's I was better able to pull up my socks and take challenges head on.
Too often we can find ourselves floundering in a whirlpool of circumstance waiting for someone to rescue us when all we need is a perspective adjustment. (Having said that I do acknowledge that sometimes ones arms and legs simply aren't strong enough to swim one to safety)
So for me, I find it encouraging
The few musicians that get help are not challenged and therefore write really bad songs that nobody remembers.. Music is inside the heart. A real musician gives their music from the heart and asks for NOTHING in return.
Here's my take:
Help others and you might be surprised what comes your way.
I recently befriended some less experienced musicians in the spirit of giving back to the community. It felt good, and because of that friendship, I have been invited to record a project with some major league players.
This should be common knowledge by now, and would just confirm what I already know (and anyone who follows people like Bob Baker).
Musicians need to build and control their own following of fans. An email list is great for that with a signup form on their webpage. Also don't just focus on selling cds/mp3s, gigs and chasing labels. Sell 'behind the scenes' access to your band online, sell music lessons, use affiliate programs - ie. multiple revenue streams.
I think this is a sort of American cowboy right-wing view of society. Many of the greatest accomplishments in history were completed by teams of people. Man on the moon, Golden Gate Bridge, Great Wall of China, the Pyramids, the Constitution, the iPod, 55,000+ high schools all teaching classes today.
But building trust so that others will work with you... I agree that's something each person has to commit to on their own.
Your talent has to speak for itself. To make it in this business, you need the courage and passion to work at your craft every day, and the reality is that no one is going to believe in your music as much as you. So if you believe in your talent, go for it!
That actually encouraged me to do what i'm doing today. At the beginning I took it as "I have a great product, why don't we get any help". I was able to flip the coin and then realize that we have to invest first. I believe we have to invest in ourselves (DYI) first, before someone else invest in you.
i think anyone who finds the prospect of no help exciting is crazy. its not fun. knowing there are a hundred people who could give you a leg up but just won't is very frustrating.
that said, you have to come to the realization that you are responsible for your own success anyhow. it would be great if someone who knew how would help you. but no one should expect it.
i'm growing tired of people being interested, saying they'll help, but not following through. its our job to make fans, that is the business we are in, so I have to go do it.
problem is A) i don't know how half the time, and B) there are a thousand others competing with me.
so its tough. it sucks. but its reality. you either make it or you don't.
I learned very early on that if I wanted anything done I was going to have to do it myself. To that end, I started my own small multimedia company about a decade ago (which acts as my record label) called FIDIM Interactive, LLC. FIDIM stands for "Fine! I'll do it myself!"
I find it encouraging. It makes sense, rudimentary business sense and realism. Growing any business takes hard work and a lot of vision, and challenging markets take all that and more.
My guy is an indie musician. He is blind, so is inherently "dependent" on others for many aspects of his business. When we first met, his business was in such chaos, because he had a "friend" managing him who knew nothing about music, the music industry, or professional behavior in general. He is extremely talented, yet was working for peanuts due to poor "management."
No, nobody is going to do it for you. Once he got HIS hands into the business and he realized how good it could be, he felt as if he had more control, took much more pride in himself and his work, and has become much more successful.
I take it one step further: No one is going to help you, and often "help" can harm you! Do it yourself, so it gets done right.
yep. helping yourself. leveraging your previous work. Like Joe...
http://concertsinyourhome.com/blog
Best,
Fran
Looking at the "glass is half full" concept, this encourages me to think I make my own destiny. If I get a help then it's gift and blessing. Hence, I get to appreciate a lot more of things and people around me. Didn't someone said that "the life is hard"? Once you accept this fact, you're less likely to be in a "poor me" syndrome. - God helps who help themselves -
I think it's important for every person in every background to consider this thought:
"No one is coming."
As depressing as this sounds at the outset, I find it empowering because it is the truth. While it would be lovely to have someone come and shower us with money and opportunities, that's not the way the world works.
If you really take that thought in, and digest it, your response will make the difference in your career.
When we're NOT expecting someone to take over the reins, only then can we understand that we are the only ones who can make anything happen. It's up to us to create the energy and the heat for our career, which in turn will create those opportunities that we seek.
Investors and agents are more interested in how you handle your BUSINESS, and they're mostly interested in how they're going to get a return on their investment. If you're not already creating $500,000 worth of excitement for your music, why should they invest in you?
It's easy to assume that you'll make the big moves AFTER you get the investors, but if you're not already making $500,000 moves and decisions now (in time and effort), how can you expect to be taken seriously??
"No one is coming."
So what are you gonna do about that?
Derek, great post! I think that anybody who is not encouraged by this really lacks passion and has some serious entitlement issues.
We are living in a D.I.Y environment. Anybody watching the major labels and the big businesses in the music space knows that these people are all struggling to keep up with the phenomenal pace of the internet. They don't have time to help you.
Yep, this is the hard gospel truth that we have to tell every artist.
In the end, its always up to how hard you work.
I can make a fantastic record for you, make you look amazing, and build a wow-inducing website, but if you don't get out there and sing to actual humans, there's not much success for any of us.
EC
http://www.CreativeSoulOnline.com
I've been DIY for so long that I actually get antsy when I do delegate work out.
I probably haven't gotten as far as I might working with a really savvy business head but I've kept fairly steady as a full-timer for nearly ten years and as this format seems to have become the new paradigm anyway, I'm reasonably comfortable with not relying on others.
Ok, just for the record at $5000.00 a month income agents are still not breaking down the door, experience tells me. I know you said that as sort of a "at the least" statement, Derek. If you are the personality type (which you are, Derek) that likes a challenge and just as you said "likes to be in control" then you are not discouraged and infact, are probably motivated by that statement. My experience has been that most musicians are not of that personality type. Most I deal with are insecure and would see that statement as a discouragement. That's where managers or able folks that are passionate about your music come in. That statement does not discourage me, either. It makes me say, "Now listen, by God, someone is making a living at this thing called music, Brett Mitchell & the giant GHOST is worthy, I will make it happen somehow." The problem here presents itself: where do I find that person to believe in my music? THAT, MY MUSICIAN FRIEND, IS YOUR QUEST IN LIFE - not so much to find a manager or agent but to find SOMEONE passionate enough about your music to help you. Keep your eyes open. Janager, 4BrettMitchell
Okay, you mavericks! I'll admit to the other side. It makes me feel incredibly alone and a little like I have to move a mountain with a teaspoon. I become overwhelmed and discouraged. I wanted to believe that people would hear what I'm doing, consider it special, and get on the bandwagon. But since I have discovered what Derek has succinctly put here, I have discovered the need to stay narrow in my vision...what can I do right now to make positive strides in my mission? And then do that. That may mean to make a plan, write an email, mail posters, whatever. If I pan back too far I see too much and it overwhelms me.
Sounds like I'm the only one like this. I know the "right" answer is that it lights a defiant fire in me to capture the world myself, but it just takes the wind out of my sails. If I take one thing at a time I can handle it.
When you finally allow yourself to believe that no one else is going to help you it is extremely liberating. And when help is offered, it is a nice surprise.
Get yourself into the mindset that people will offer help when you're ready to be offered it.
Your Question: Nobody’s going to help you. Does that encourage you or discourage you?
My answer: It depends.
As far as the music business, I literally gave up on asking for their help a decade ago, as it became clear that the artist I admired called the shots. Total artistic control has always been important to what I do, and having the internet has done nothing but solidify what I've been saying to my friends for a decade, that in order to truly be successful, we had to do it ourselves. In that sense, its empowering.
Outside of music, its a different story. I would hate to be alone and have no help if say, a disaster strikes. If my town was flooded, or if I was in a car accident, I would want help on those occassions, as having no help can literally kill you.
My dad used to say "you can always tell the quality of an organization by the help it gives to it members in need", churches and communties tend to be pretty good about this, businesses do not, so what does that say?
Hi Derek,
You are absolutely right. I am a booking agent and UNLESS I have a personal interest in the band/act/musician I would not even consider handling them until they reached a certain level/potential on their own. Reaching that level also shows that the act/band/musician is serious about their own musicial career.
P.S. I am also a singer/songwriter and knowing nobody will help me actually motivates me to help myself.
I would say that it encourages me, at first, to go my own way, define my own direction. But then, if and when I hit a roadblock, knowing that I have no help would be a bit discouraging.
Seth Godin often says don't ask people to do something you wouldn't do yourself in the first place. And he is right. If you are asking a big label to invest 500k you need to ask yourself what would you do if you were CEO of the label? If you wouldn't do it why waste everybody's time? Go out there and build a track record that says you're worth 500k..
I figured out a long, long time ago that nobody is going to help me, except other musicians/artists. If I needed other people to help me I would've "quit" years ago. What motivates me is my passion and the responses I get from regular ordinary people who have no hidden agenda and tell me my music or art moves them. It's a genuine and inspiring feeling that constantly reminds me to continue trying to get it out there. Then there is Derek...thank you.
Acutally I have an answer for this (How can I find a great/major booking agent?
And how can I find an investor? I need someone to invest $500,000 into my band for radio, touring, recording, videos, PR, payola, etc.)
My answer: Get yourself to the point where you need either....
If you want radio airply try radiodirectx.com they have lots of services & I have been very happy with them. It does cost & you have to send all your own promo packages to the stations, I'm being played all over Europe & Australia. One disc jockey was going to help me get disribution in Europe & I was the featured artist on his station.
I think it's important to remember that you have to be the one that makes it happen. And therefore it's partly inspiring to hear that
BUT, it is also important to involve other people working with you. I have seen way too many artists who spend so much time figuring out how to promote their album that they quit writing and practicing altogether.
It's really easy to waste hours adding friends to myspace, researching venues, trolling through possible gigs, booking gigs, etc. Having at least one other person to help with this sort of thing is essential if you want to maintain your creativity (which presumably is why you do all this promoting anyway)
It doesn't mean it has to be the agent at William Morris, but involving a community in the promotion of an artist is essential if you want to sell more than 20 cd's a year. You can involve your friends, interns, whomever.
You CAN do it yourself, but getting some help to do it will be far more likely to achieve success.
That said, the big question is, how do you find useful, reliable help that doesn't cost a fortune?
When I decided to start my business promoting independent musicians earlier this year I did ask for help from others, on more of an advice basis. However, I knew I needed to move it ahead on my own with trust and confidence that it was the right direction. I think people are more likely to give when not being asked, if they see potential in what one is doing. Being told it is up to me gives me some sense of freedom, and the beauty and scary part is that there are no strings attached.
I've always been one for the DIY response and that's only been strengthened by the experiences I've had from dealing with distributors and promotions companies.
Must of the time you are dealing with third parties they are either asking for too much (money or wanting too much control) and or they want to take your money for doing very little.
So even when people say they want to help its never altruistic. DIY will not only save you money, it means you are dealing with the person who cares most: Yourself.
I used to find it discouraging, but like all challenges in life, once you accept the reality, your mind opens up to possibilities. I have found that behaving like like Tom Sawyer painting the fence in Twain's classic story works amazingly well - once other people see you doing it and enjoying getting results, they jump in and help, often without having to be asked.
Hi Derek...I feel much like you do.When you claim the title of The King...you know no one is going to help you.As a matter of fact I get so much disdain and hate simply for the title I use.Musicians would rather starve than play for me.They say...aw you want to be a star...like I shouldn't want this and If I simply wanted to sing in bars to the same 4 or 5 fat chicks every night we could do something? I basically do not expect any help in the world of mud because humans are like crabs. If you try to get out of the barrel the other crabs pull you back down and if you keep trying they will kill you.I live my life like a warrior always ready to crush a crab when I come across one.One must come to use the fact that no one will help them as motivation to do more.To kill em with success.You have helped me tremendously Derek and your posts help me. To "rub elbows" with you is an honor.I do have a few questions for you and perhaps one day you will give me a few moments of your time to ask them.
The fact that you may not receive any help, does make you question your commitment to your art. I am a musician, and I have given my life to it, as I have given my life to my children and other loved ones. Music is one of my 'loved ones'. Whatever else happens with it, I am committed to it for my lifetime.
One thing your wrong on is that people do still invest in music. I just landed 2 artists investments for their projects.
Me on the other hand wouldn't allow someone to invest in my dream ever again and get a percentage of my worth. I have been doing it too long on my own now and have sold way too many records (over 100,000) to not know my value.
Self motivation is the key and working hard every single day. People call me the hardest working man in the Bay Area, but I won't stop until I am known as the hardest working man IN MUSIC.
Show booking is easy. You just network your way onto a show as the opening act and give the BEST performance. You outshine the headliner and the owner will bring you back for cash next go around. Remember in bars, in between each song tell the crowd to order a drink and tip the bartender. Trust Me.
"L"
It took me a while to realise that my partner & I would have to do everything ourselves. It certainly didn't discourage me, but it is tough & leaves less time for making music!
And it's eventually become second nature. I understand what needs to be done and also know the value of different tasks. We're now at the point where we are able to outsource some of the work. We've built up enough systems that it is easy to hire people to do the work, and also to put a monetary value on it.
I think doing things myself has given me a much better understanding of how to run my career like a business, and am actually rather glad that I was forced into taking this route!
The thing I like about this is that it switches thinking from "If only..." to "What if...". Instead of thinking "If only I had $500K, I'd be successful" you think "What if I could be successful without $500K?"
The other thing I want to mention is that none of us are ever alone. Call it God, Great Spirit, or The Universe, call it Fred, Ethel, or Lucy. Call it whatever you want. That which came before and has always been. THAT will not abandon you. Even if you don't believe in him/her/it/the Borg.
So while thinking "Nobody's going to help you" can be a little frightening for me, I think you can also rephrase that as "you don't need anyone else's help; you have the tools you need".
I am encouraged by this for a few reasons. Without anyones help, there will also be no influence. My music will be whatever I want it to be, nobody will be pressuring me to duplicate a song or drop another. I also get the chance to gain the knowledge of the business by taking every step myself and in gaining that knowledge I will always have control and understanding of what is happening in my career.
I set out to do this on my own in the first place. Call me cynical, but I don't want to give anyone a chance to let me down.
I manage my own band and I am currently booking a tour for this spring when our first album releases. One step at a time!
After reading your article Derek, i have to agree because that is exactly the attitude i have taken over the last 5 years or so. If i had sat around waiting for investors, i would never have recorded and released my three Cd's 'Brainfudge", "Knotty Bits" and "Cerebral Lubrication". I just found shopping deals was never successful anyway, so why wait while the best and creative years of your life slip by? Is this depressing? Not really, in fact it is empowering and you can really get a lot done on your own these days.
Thanks Derek!
Chris
Well, Im feeling chatty today, so I will give my opinion. If anyone is going to advise the "Do it yourself" way and have it be empowering and encouraging, it's Sivers. I mean, afterall, he did become successful DIY style.
I have been working in the music biz for a short time, but I can already tell you 1 out of 10 people will do things for free (usually a family member) and 9 out of 10 will do things if they see $$$.
Besides, if you do something by yourself and come out on top, you have way more bragging rights!
It's true! Seldom do we get real help. Most people are trying to find their own help. Knowing this, I am STILL committed to making music and impacting lives with it. I have decided to place value upon my gifts and talents. Others would sell me cheap anyway! I have come to know that the only real people who matter are the ones who hit the stores, log onto CDbaby, hit my site and download the music. The love me! I'm committed to loving them back.
You are correct, no one will help you until you help yourself. You may be able to get friends to contribute in promoting you but to find a manager, booking agent or investor is near impossible unless you are seen as a profitable artist. Connect with as many people as possible, but do it in a more personal fashion. get to know the person who is interested in your music instead of spamming users on major social networks in hopes you gain that 1% who actually aren't bothered by your impersonal approach. Potential investors, booking agents etc.. need to eat as well and can't sink hours of time into one artist on speculation that in the long term make money.
I wonder if this "independent" way of doing things is a result of our culture's attitude of "I'll do it my way" or if it's because everyone is out for their own with no regard for the guy next to them. It seems that we're responsible for ourselves only and cannot expect our success to come from anyone else. At the same time if our interest is only in ourselves then we miss out on enjoying those around us.
Sometimes it's discouraging to me that no one is willing to help a starving musician achieve their dreams. It's also empowering though because it frees me to pursue my goals without waiting for someone else to "do it for me".
We all need to be strong enough to pull our own weight and humble enough to admit we all need each other's help.
It is definitely encouraging. As an independent band, we have always done everything ourselves. From merchandise, to touring, to registering as a business and paying taxes. In today's day and age, not only is it assumed that nothing is a "hand-out" in the music business, but there are so many tools and methods to do everything yourself. For any independent artist, its almost a no brainer. DIY, until you are at the point where someone is willing to make an investment and/or take a chance.
I figured that out a long time ago, and I decided it put me ahead in the game, because there are not too many people out there willing to work as hard as me.
It's nice to have that clarified by someone like you.
Agree, Derek
A record label is simply an investment bank that wants its money back in good time. They start to deduct from the day they invest in the artist.
I think you simply have to show the world that you are willing to invest your time, energy, resources and soul before people start helping you. I have been fortunate in that the people who can help me are doing that now...took a long time and a lot of proving myself and the music...best advice...keep at it! Sign I keep above my desk..."Always bear in mind that your resolution to success is more important than any one thing"...Abraham Lincoln
I would be encouraged. I don't want anything the easy way and I want to work hard to reach my goals. I realize that my aspirations are in my hands and mine alone. The more energy I put out there, hopefully the more I'll receive and if people don't respond then I'll just keep trying until I make my splash.Music is what I love so there's no loss for me. Creating music is like a painting, once its complete I feel I've fullfilled my role.
I agree with your thought that a musician's attitude should be one of self-reliance. I've often told friends that I could care less what old fashioned "industry gatekeepers" say about my music or my methods. However, I care a DANG lot about what my fans think and say. And therefore these gatekeepers are 100% irrelevant.
That being said, I've seen a few special cases where someone is willing to bet, risk, and invest in musicians, even in this uncertain time. These cases have more to do with the caliber of the investors and their burning desire to see an artist succeed than rational business decisions, however.
> No one is going to help you but you.
I agree. It took me a long time to realize this. The truth will set you free!
Well truth be told I used to get very discourage. Every once in a while this happens again. I just have to wake up on the right side of the bed. The question is always: which side is the right side? I finally figured out that it didn't matter. What matters was the attitude I choose before getting up. Choosing the right attitude helped me become more open minded and positive about my career. Now its more fun to figure out different ways of putting my music out there...
It is the reality of the situation that no one will help. But it is also the reality that as an artist we need to better define what "help" means. Unlike our economy there are no TARP funds for musicians - so no bailout is available. But if you need HELP in drafting realistic goals and a business plan - then help is available. If you need HELP in creative ways of executing a business plan help may be available. If you need encouragement along the way it's available there too. But no one is going to just GIVE you money, access, or fans. Once you get into motion it's much easier to merge into oncoming traffic. If you're at a dead-standstill trying to jump in a 100 mile/hour lane you'll get killed. So define where you want to go, how you want to get there and get into motion, even if it's very slow along the way. So I generally agree with the statement, but it's a bit too raw. But I'm both encouraged and discouraged by its raw reality.
We're each personally responsible for our success. Help usually means taking out a mortgage on your success. Eventually, your success will belong to someone else. If you're in music for the money, you're an idiot. Be a banker.
So how can we gather up all this collective energy, bridle it against all the people who say no, and turn it into a yes. I guess this is what all the networking sites are about, but after being in this business 25 years...it's time the indies join hands and go for it! Feel free to email constructive comments and ways in which you would like to rise up. I do want to hear from you!
Brioprinfo@aol.com
Most people are going to answer with the response that makes them look good. The 'rebel without a cause' I don't need anyone, attitude.
The fact is, most people are discouraged by this response and they're right to be. It used to be that you would work your ass off and eventually someone would come to the table to help you run your business at a level that most people in music don't begin to have the competency to do. Nor should they, we’re talking about sophisticated marketing here. This is a legitimate skill, we can just expect musicians of all people to just figure it out.
$5000/month? Here in Toronto a typical door price for an indie band would be $5-$8. If you're really happenin' maybe you'll pull in 100 - 150 people. Call that somewhere between $500 and $800 at the door. After paying the sound guy and the door staff (why that's not the bar's problem is another story) maybe you've got $300-$500 left. Now it's time to pay the openers who you will undoubtedly screw over because it rolls down hill. So now maybe you've got $200-$400 take home. Oh yeah, I forgot about postering...count that in too.
--minor topic diversion--
In the meantime the so called “promoters” (see: alcohol retailers) do literally ZERO to help you build your audience. They’ll write ‘nice job’ on the door envelope and that’s about. God forbid, you have an off night and under draw. Well then they’ve got all kinds of things to say.
If you do have a good night, you’re thinking, “right on, now we’ll get to support a national act when they come through town cause we did right by the bar!” . Nope. You see the national act is on a big booking roster who is sending out their own opener. So you’re going to have to get to $5000/ month without this too.
--back to the money now--
In a 5 piece that's a wopping $40-$80/ player for a nights work...super...and of course they're not even taking that, we're putting it in the bank to cover the rehearsal space, the publicist and God knows what else AND THIS IS THE HOME TOWN SHOW!
This used to make sense because the idea was, that someone who understood how to market you and was willing to put up the dough to do it would eventually come along because you got good at what you're good at.
I just don't buy this ideaolgy that musicians will have to be the businessmen with the same level of sophistication. It's not going to happen. This might work if the labels and big bookers didn't exists but they do. So now not only are you not working WITH them you're competing against them. While they're resources may be depleted, they're still going to crush you at commercial radio and shut you out of most of the intermediate level gigs through booking agencies and managers, aka the insiders.
Expecting that the musicians will just run their businesses at a level even resembling that of a traditional label act makes about as much sense to me as expecting the label guys to be able to pick up a guitar and make the music. They're not good at it, nor would we expect them to be.
People keep saying, oh the opportunities for the artists are so enormous now. Maybe.
We like to talk about online and viral marketing like it's the be all and end all, like it is just as easy as putting something online and it all happens. Online marketing is just as hard and expensive as traditional marketing relative to what you get.and the budget you have to do it. Further, myspace and facebook and last.fm and the like are super if you're trying to reach 15-25 year olds but what happens if you're not selling music to kids?
It's bad out there. Really bad and most people who say they're encouraged by your response are just posing tough and are quite frankly, full of it. The fact is almost everyone drops their chin when reading this.
There are a choice few who thrive in this against the wind culture but no one is being honest if we say the anywhere close to the majority will.
We will lose good bands and good music to this climate, of this I am certain. I see it every day. And this isn't the 'they were never good enough' pile. This was the 'they were more than good enough and worked their ass off but never had someone to guide their career' pile.
At the very least, make sure you're very skinny, wear neck scarves a lot and play music that is very, very, very familiar or baring that try to make something that is so 'modern' that people won't criticize you lest they look unhip. That seems to be what’s working.
So I'm admitting it. I'm discouraged but the good news is I didn't get into this business because I'm big on facts. Trying to make it in music is an unreasonable endeavour so you need to be unreasonable. A reasonable person would pretty much say f-this upon examining the realities of the business. While, discouraged, I am not a reasonable person. This will either push me and my band mates through to the next level or drive us to the wrong end of a bottle of Jim Beam. Maybe both. Only time will tell
Way more bitter than I thought I was,
Alex
I know it's all up to me.And I like not depending on outside circumstances. However, I work best in a team. When you don't have that team, things get foggy and slow. The freedom of the internet is a gift...but it's also a vast limbo. But I do feel more in control when it's up to me.
Doing it on your own is a positive thing. Then not only do you reap the rewards but it's extremely fulfilling and inspiring to others.
This just further reminds us that you can't expect people to hand you things. You have to do the work. It's not easy. We have chosen this path/this field. Some of us are late bloomers and that's ok. I'm a great believer that if you put in the hard work, good intentions and treat people with respect all whilst building your brand and honing your craft- people will start helping. Why- because they'll recognize your value and they'll want to be a part of your life. Trust this! It works..
Well, your assessment hardly surprised me. Actually, my writing partner(s) and I could care less about touring or "The Big Time". We are now spending all our energy trying to link up with Music Directors for movie and television soundtrack work. None of us have the stomach anymore for writing lyrics anyway, and as seasoned players we have found composing instrumentals a big relief from the pressure of competing in a go-nowhere youth market. We don't even care about Internet distribution since it is now also taking a big dump and being controlled by the same suits that formerly held A&R positions with labels. So Derek, if you want suggestions, start making contacts within the Music Director community and acting as a go-between in placing our music to "them".
Interesting thoughts. Our greatest progress in our musical careers have been through
A) creating good music
B) working hard
C) helping hands - though without A) and B) this wouldn't have been possible.
In any business you have to get opportunities. The best thing to do is to position yourself to where you can make the lucky breaks more likely to happen.
This is such a hard one... it has taken me years to realise that no-one is coming on a white horse to rescue me. And everytime I have listened to people promising help, I've ended up delayiing things and being back where I started weeks or months, or even years later. So now when I talk to industry people - agents, labels, venues, festivals - in my first couple of sentences I ask them to please do me the courtesy of saying "no" quickly rather than keeping me hanging on if that's what their answer is going to be,,, and in my experience most people know their answer in the first minute or so of your pitch. I recently delayed a project by 18 months waiting for one person who kept promising great things. Eventually we had to move on and once I took control again, things have start to move along - granted, not at the pace I would like, but moving nonetheless.
I am not going to answer your question Derek . Does that discourage you or encourage you ?
The good old days are over, if you want things done self independence is the best way. For my first project I did basically everything and had a fair amount of success for not knowing much about the music business, and of course I made a few mistakes as well, but it's part of the learning curve and I would not have learned as much depending upon someone else.
Big Break-someone will find me-someone will love me/finance me-thinking has been nothing but detrimental to my career and I'm finally out of the bowels of it-and now I do what I can control, I do what I want to do, I don't sell myself out, I don't sell out my values and that has somehow made me more money. I can't control who thinks I have talent (or is too prude for my naughty songs) or thinks I'm worth helping. I can only spend my time writing songs, entertaining audiences and asking nicely for opportunities. It became a spiritual quest for me to stay in my own "business" and out of the heads of professionals. I might need miracles but miracles aren't forced.
I've always advocated doing it yourself. I mean, I look at it this way: if you BUILD everything yourself, you OWN everything yourself. By doing this you put yourself in a position where people come to you and you are in the superior position for negotiating any deal.
This does not mean you are alone in the game, but it means you have to orchestrate everything. You can still delegate work to those you pay or have volunteers do stuff for you, but ultimately no "Investor Angel" is gonna swoop down and save you. You have to PROVE yourself.
Musicians who think that someone is going to do everything for them are a bit deluded. Your talent is not your commodity in this new world. Your commodity, your bargaining power comes from how much $$$ and Intellectual Property that is making money that you bring to the table.
I don't get sad at having to do everything myself. I just dig in deeper, because this is my life and this is what I love to do.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Get out and DO!
Peace,
Nat
I think its both depressing and encouraging. As a musician it just depends on which day you as me. ;-)
I think what you are saying is true in all areas of life. It is all on you to make it happen.
I feel the statement is no an absolute truth. If you start with the attitude that since nobody is going to help me let me roll up my own sleeves. And as the time goes by you do get people who are ready to help you. This works for your benefit too, as ditying you own hands leaves you smarter(wiser) so that later "helpers" will not take advantage of you!
I have been in the music biz since I was 14. I have seen almost every single rejection notice there is. DIY is the only way that you'll ever get anywhere, so to me, it's a motivator. You also end up feeling way more fulfilled when you've done something for yourself, the way you thought it should be done, pitfalls and all.
The other comforting thing, is that you are never really alone. If you help yourself, the universe will conspire to help you. Wishing and hoping does nothing without drive. Complaining simply does nothing...
You've got to have Belief & Hustle!
It's a basic part of my personality not to ask for help. In most cases this is a good thing, though the tendency to take on everything myself can get me into trouble.
I'm quite encouraged to know that it's all down to me. My work is a bit out of the ordinary and I enjoy finding ways to promote, distribute and encourage word of mouth. When you've built something that has something valuable to offer a possible business partner, you can evaluate offers from a position of strength. Being in a position to walk away from a less than ideal offer without looking back is a good feeling.
Giving back by helping someone in the music industry or any other industry is usually rare. However, I do believe that knowing someone who has already made it in the business can help launch someone's career by endorsing him or her. I think "Networking" is a good and positive answer.
'Does it encourage or discourage me'? As a songwriter (I'm not a performer) it makes me realize that it's all up to me. If I want to be successful I must try many different ways to get my songs out there. If I don't self promote, I will remain obscure. It's not easy, but it's the only way.
You know... I think there are different degrees of "help." When I read/hear about families paying for their kids rent, or paying off the debts they incurred, or funding their kids dreams... it just doesn't teach anyone anything. Whatever you want, it comes with a price and many people bail out of wanting to do things on their own it seems, so they ask for "help" to assist them with things they need to do for themselves. Emotional support, and encouragement type of "help" is always needed no matter the situation and can be much more powerful than money used to "help" someone. I sometimes wish more people can LEARN to help themselves.
Jared Matthew Kessler
*Author of "The Poet and the Billionaire: A Personal Journey of Conversation."
I stopped buying into the pampered rockstar myth many years ago. Now I'm older, happier and more musically accomplished than I would have ever been otherwise.
Expect Nothing! Because that's all you are entitled to.
Deciding encouraging or discouraging is to focus on the wrong issue. If you were in an airplane with engine trouble, do you want the pilots to decide how they feel about the engine trouble, or deal with it? First, learn how the music world works. Then decide what you want to accomplish within that system. Then engineer a plan to get to the goal. Finally, stay with it, for years if need be.
As much as I understand what you're saying here, Derek, there is much evidence to the contrary.
Award-winning producer Brian Grazer is quoted as saying, "As much as you believe in yourself, you have to have someone believe in you."
You've got to understand, Steven Speilberg wouldn't be where he is today without being given his first "shot". Oprah Winfrey had to be given her first shot.
Personally speaking, I had to earn the sponsorship of the New York Foundation for the Arts to produce my father's documentary. They signed me to a contract because they knew the only thing keeping me from making this movie is the financial ability to do so. Even with that validation, I have still had to approach over 500 foundations that support arts and culture and I've only raised a fraction of the production budget.
I know it's up to me - I know I can't truly depend on anyone but myself - each time I propose this to the next individual or foundation, it becomes more and more compelling, until, finally, I will reach the right person(s) to help make this happen.
And I'll have a tremendous list of people to thank but I know, in my heart of hearts, it happened because of my determination, dedication and tenacity to make it happen...
i find it liberating. i wouldn't have gotten past my first cd if someone else's money had been tied up in the whole thing. everything in life is a trade-off and there's no such thing as a free hand-out.
I find the self-pity ("no one is going the help me") fuels the "It's all up to me" attitude, which goes along fine until you reach the "I'm exhausted" stage, at which point the entire cycle beings again. My goal is not to have the cycle begin each time at the same level. Imagine drawing an upward spiral pattern on a piece of paper, or picture a slinky climbing the stairs. Today I might be alone trying to book some local gigs. The next time the cycle comes around, I'll be alone planning a regional tour, and so on. Such is life.
I spent most of the 1990’s recording for well know Canadian artists, the purpose of which was to please management and/or the record company. This was a huge waste of time, but I did learn a lot about the business and about recording and arranging music. Now, I rely 100% on myself and though I make less money I am much happier and I can do everything myself. I sell cds online, play my own solo guitar shows, it’s really up to me to do everything, instead of this being a negative, it’s the best thing that’s ever happened.I DON"T HAVE TO ASK ANYONE FOR PERMISSION BEFORE I ACT! I can do a solo guitar show and sell almost $1000.00 in cd sales alone. The musician's that I know that tried to stick to the old business model of having someone take care of their career, both in terms of management and a record deal, are not playing music anymore. Their careers are over. The reason for this is that they wanted what the 80’s gave musicians: a record deal with no chance of recouping costs, although they may have achieved the perception of fame for a few years. Any experience musician will tell you very few artists have ever made money from a record deal. As for agents, they're great, but really you have to be making $100,000.00 or more a year with the band, and after splitting it with band members, 10-15% commission + expenses, it's just not that much dough. Investors, better to get a bank loan, you'll own your material after the loan is paid off, with a deal or investors - they'll still own a piece long after they've recouped!
Its discouraging if I were to look at it the same way as the person who emailed you.
Sometimes you don't get to define the kind of help you will get. Instead of asking for chocolate ice cream with slivered almonds - not chopped, ask for dessert and see what comes your way.
And when it does, you have to be ready to recognize it, enable it and above all be grateful for it.
I've championed many artists over the years, often providing free promotional advice and services, hosting house concerts, spending hundreds of volunteer hours with non profit music conferences. A few months back I was really discouraged - I felt like a doormat who was always giving, never receiving. But then I shook myself out of it, looked around and realized we have wonderful champions of our music - I just needed to get out of the way and let those people help us.
What goes around does come around, eventually. It may not result in a $500,000 investment, but maybe that's not really what you need after all.
Who wants to believe in a fairy godmother? Or godfather. You have to build your own house.
It would be great for someone to come alongside you and help with promotion, bookings, and such. But ultimately it is up to you. You are the commodity you are selling. I feel not wanting to do it yourself says an awful lot about the quality of your product. Nobody said it was going to be easy. You sing and you play because you just have to. It is a calling. I really feel encouraged by your answers Derek. It would be easier to have someone do it for me, but most successful artists spent years paying their dues to get where they are today. I just wish I could get a hold of their mailing list.
Why should they?There are 500 million guitar players!You have to do it cause you love it,and it is special and unique to you.
totally agree... the business is such that only the strongest survive. UNfortunately, not everyone has received the memo on what this means. This does not mean that you make the best music. This does not mean that you have the best hair and can thrash it around to the rockin beat, this does not mean that you write the best songs. No, it means, all of the above, plus you are your own investor, publicist, radio promotion team, booking agent, band manager, AND you are dedicated, committed, balls to the walls giving it your everything. Then, maybe.
This is not an either/or question. It encourages me when I expect manna from Heaven, help from nowhere. But then, I've been doing this long enough to NOT expect that kind of help.
It DISCOURAGES me when I know (from some reviewers and from audience listeners/fans) that my music is very good, but I see other bands who are not as good musically or in presentation get breaks/gigs I have been trying to get ... because of politics. Sometimes it's because these musicians are better at schmoozing gatekeepers, or know someone who knows someone. Sometimes it's because gatekeepers are lazy and rely on the same old mediocre bands. I've been told by a booker "I listen to your CD all the time in my car" but then when pressed to get a gig, an opportunity to build a fan base further, he says he has "nothing for me right now." Um, OK ...
Still, I try and try and seize the opportunities until I find gatekeepers who WILL give me the opportunity. It's a slow process and backbreaking, but for now I am continuing on.
Write and record songs overwhelmingly for my own satisfaction. I play occasional open mics. I am putting together my second solo album. People I know find them satisfying. I am sure that there are ways to be more widely heard and I'm all for it. But I also have another career, so there are limits.
Joe
I say help yourself. Do your best. Some people may find value in what you do.. Others won't. The validation has to come from within, anything else is extra icing on the cake..
I absolutely agree - 100%! There are no handouts in life. Great art is born from struggle. If you have not made the journey, then the destination is not truly yours - it will belong to someone else. It's important that we be honest with ourselves and put the responsibility of making a living on our own shoulders. Performing artists are not the best business people - we need to recognize that in ourselves and surround ourselves with the right tools and people to help with weaknesses. Reality can be a harsh thing sometimes but if you want your craft to also be your business, then you must wake up to it! (But then again, I'm a Jersey girl, so I have always felt in control of my fate...)
Whether one is discouraged or not has alot to do with one's genre and its comparative expectations. I don't make a "living" with my music but, I make more than I spend. Over time, doors open and I find a new venue, a new market for Mp3s or a song placement for film. The ego must take a back seat to the need to create and share. A musician is compelled to play...so play and enjoy the ride!
Isn't it better to do it yourself? If someone else "makes you" then someone else owns part of you and your hard work. Own your work and own yourself and stay true to what makes you unique.
Look at all you will learn in educating yourself in the business. It's a lot of blood, sweat and tears but isn't THAT worth doing it yourself?
I'd say anyone caught up in these issues needs to dig deep to examine their motives for making music.
I'm not a musician, but Derek's lessons widely apply. I am self-employed and have always told people that we are all self-employed even if we temporarily have a steady salary.We are solely responsible for being valuable to others, whether as entertainers or consultants.
I've waited most of my adult life to have total creative control over my artform. I don't even think that way anymore. It would be nice to have some part time help with some of the muck work from time to time; there are only so many hours in a day....
Cheers,
Nick
I think it is both encouraging and discouraging. I am encouraged to keep writing music and playing because I do it for me it makes me feel good. It's discouraging to know that the music business is like the gold rush of the mid 1800's ....not many people struck it rich finding gold.... the people who really made it were the people selling the supplies to the gold miners. In the music biz few artists are financially successful playing music....the people making the money are selling musicians stuff that they think will help them succeed...example-- "pay $100 to come and hear a panel of industry pros talk about how you can succeed in music"! ha! not falling for that scam! I'll keep my $100 and book my own gigs like I've been doing for the last 10 years... ...you seemed to have sparked my fightin' spirit... thanks!
I appreciate your help and blogs Derek first off. But yes I usually find that knowing no one is going to help me motivates me especially when it comes to music career ventures. I believe that stems from my subconscious belief that working by myself is better off, or better said from my lack of desire to be a "team player." I believe this attitude causes a lot of the suffering I as an independent artist go through as well as the current state of the music industry now. When unity is present and all of the clogs in the wheel work together for a common goal etc there can be harmony and growth. When everyone has each others best interest so to speak there can be success and ground breaking results. So back to you question. Yes knowing that no one is going to help does motivate me and I believe it motivates several other egos in the art industry and many people gaining momentum on their own is exactly what you have. Growth, success and progress are only resulted in those who collect those individuals and perhaps sell there uniqueness as well as likeness's by organizing and labeling them. For example the way a youtube will organize several different video streamers, or the way a myspace will organize several individual's pages or even further the way a record label or publishing company will organize a catalog of musicians work. Or perhaps even how you organized individual bands through CDBABY. Anyhow my point is these individuals are an example of many who are pushing their own cart uphill and perhaps even motivated by the fact that not to many hands will be assisting that up hill process. If someone were to pull their "cart" up hill with an advance of money or perhaps huge amounts of publicity etc would they be as motivated to struggle and document it as "art." I personally say no they would not on the basis of how I would feel. Sorry for the long drawn out answer but once again your blogs have stimulated the brain. Your on a role Derek keep me posted and keep spreading your gift. Peace
I think it's a refreshing thought. No one to help also means no one to try to turn you away from your end goal, no one to distract you, no one to drag you down.
From a business standpoint, it seems to me that a financial backer would want to make sure that your plans and stratagies would bring the highest possible return on their investment. To that end I'm sure they would want to have some input on the plan that's to be set in motion. Not a bad thing from their point of view, and not unreasonable either.
If you're an artist though, there's a lot to be said about having total freedom to follow your plan without distraction. As artists we do tend to think differently than the money guys and can't really expect them to understand where we're coming from.
I like the freedom to express myself to the fullest and don't think that I could do that if I had the drag of feeling like I had others depending on me. It's good motivator to be self sufficent.
I find it encouraging...I think that's one of the wonderful things about music these days, it's all up to the musician how successful things turn out.
I've had big shot managers and lawyer come work with me because of the buzz we created, but even then I found that the things we as a band were doing helped us out much more than the industry types could...
I am contantly reminded that i'm on my own. Peaple I pay for services( promo, printing , recording etc.) don't do thier job. My band mates are lazy. fighting to get in touch with promoters and radio stations. But I get it done and that is the most satisfying feeling you can ever have. If you want it done right, do it yourself!
No one cares more about me than me.I stopped waiting for mr. big with a cigar coming to my door with a bag of money a long time ago.I became mr. big.I built my own opportunity over and over again.I love failure,it shows me a new way to try things.Living your dreams and bliss is sucess.Oh yeh get off your ass!
We have been hoping for a break for 30 years, and have concluded a long time ago that whatever happens is what we make happen ourselves. This has encouraged us to keep going, but with a realistic attitude that super stardom may not be in the cards. We have to keep reminding ourselves of the bottom line, that we love music and will keep making it no matter what.
I come from a place where every man for himself and God for us all.
Knowing these things will eventually build up strong allies but never forget the fact that you will always be a one man army.
A one-man-army eliminates alot of heart-ache and betrayal.
Peace
Words to live by, and that's always seemed like common sense, anyway. ;)
I'm sort of a control freak, and the idea that it's all up to me is pretty empowering and validating.
Thanks for the great posts. Do keep them up. Much appreciated.
- Michael
well I believe that people actually do help me on my journey but I dont depend on them, it seems to come naturally when I follow my gut and I am on track..I do everything I can everyday to move forward on my mission.. If I sit and wait for someone it bugs me because its not my nature to let someone control my progress..I am still learning the balance of pushing all out and backing off sometimes to let things unfold, I find listening to my intuition is pretty much always right...even if it is 'wrong'
In reality you can't build an empire alone, you've got to surround yourself with smart cool people who have passion..
Sitting around looking for handouts like in the example in the article is basically panhandling, trying to get something for nothing.. do everything yourself and 'helpers' will come into the picture because they believe in your mission..
My two cents
This reply would be discouraging if not for people like Derek who offer so much useful information. If you know what to do, you can do it.
Thanks, Derek:
...and the truth shall make us free! I hope your Christmas and the coming year will be bright, rewarding and empower you with the ability to continue to motivate us with your wisdom.
Best,
Dave Rice
I don't normally post replies to blogs for whatever reason, and I'm not inclined to read the 104 that came before me. However, I did want to weigh in.
A year ago, Derek's statement would have discouraged me. Today, I accept it as truth and am prepared to deal with it as best I can. I don't know if I'd say it encourages me. I would so that I'm going to make music whether anyone pays attention or not. If I somehow manage to make a living at it, great. If not, I'll get by.
You might wonder what the difference is between now and a year ago; Twenty Aught Eight. I've been putting a new song on my web site every week for the last year; I have 3 weeks to go. It's given me a new perspective on who I am and what I want to do, and how to go about it.
I will not compromise who I am. I will not engage in any activity I find to be entirely distasteful or that take away too much time from what I enjoy in life. I will continue to express myself and grow as an artist. I will try to do things to move me and hope that they move other people.
'nuff said.
I've actually answered this question a few times...at least once in an interview. I was asked why I don't rely on others for anything music related. My answer was: "Don't rely on anyone. No one else is ever going to care more about your music and goals than you. So instead of feeling overwhelmed, just focus on what you can do....and do it. Hopefully that includes writing, playing, etc. Always try to move forward and just know that there is no "end" and that you don't need someone else to whisk you up and 'discover' you." I never forgot something I read (maybe you wrote it Derek?) that referred to this topic of an investor. It said something about...why would an investor use his/her money to put it into your music if you're not willing to do it first? I put myself on 100 college radios, 200+ commercial radio markets (got a single to #8 on those charts), made a video (over 100,000 YouTube hits), got music into 6,000+ movie theatres, etc., etc., all on my own. 0.0% investors.
It's been my experience that real help in this game (other than God) is hard to come by even in the best of times. What's encouraging to me is that there are more tools available than ever on the Web, and people like you, Derek, Bob Baker and others who are teaching and encouraging artists to help themselves.
After many years of thinking that I'd stumble into a magical forest of money trees, agents, managers, and record labels, I arrived at "Reality Road". I've decided that there is little virtue in poverty and self-denial. Using the law of attraction, I am attracting websites, reviews, shows, and money. When the going gets tough, get off of your ass, stop playing games and seize each day.
Carpe Diem. Derek is 100% on the beam. If you cannot handle the heat of the soup (advice) get out of the kitchen.
Thanks Derek - Your Loyal Legion Lenny Paquette
Of course it's discouraging. Why would I lie? It's not exactly a revelation, though.
Although people will help out in small ways if they like what you're doing-- but if one's definition of "help" is being handed half a million dollars for doing nothing, then possibly one needs to adjust one's expectations.
I've found doing it myself is very empowering altho' it was discouraging at first. I was good at playing my gigs now I'm getting good at booking them. Next step- promotion!
It,s no news for me,to get a dollar you need to spend a dollar,,but what do you do when you have no funds, for me the thing you can do is to get a lot of contacts so i use the services that i benifit from,,saying that i have not found that service yet,,but to get over this obsticle drives me more than stimulate the feeling to give up.
one reason could be that i work with marketing(not music) and know that commitment allways pay,s off in one way or another.the hardest part is to reach the listeners,,but i also bealive that promoting companies, cd services etc,will cut prices to stay in bussines and without music what could they do.
The answer is "yes." Yes, it is discouraging at first, when illusions of easy success are shattered. And yes, it is extremely motivating to realize that there are no easy answers and very few easy successes. Motivating in an "oh shit, I better get out there and hustle or I won't have any food!" sort of way.
Also, one of the most important lessons to learn from all this -- and this ties in with Derek's other post about conferences -- is to always think about how you can help others before you ask for help from them.
I think that answer depends on the individual and his/her circumstances. I would be the LAST person to judge anyone's response - be it encouraged or discouraged...we're all different. I think in the utopian world, you at 20 years old w/ a full band behind you (helping take some of the work load off), no bills to pay or few at that, and the "rocky" theme playing in the back of your mind, it may encourage you to push hearing all the "no" answers. But what about the DIY guy who has struggled his entire life, and DOES possess the talent, hasn't been able to crack the right connections, has to get a day job he hates to make ends meet, has the phrase "no unsolicited material" STAMPED in his mind, etc, etc...he may get discouraged...people w/ very little have done great things..is there a formula or is it written in the stars...? Damned if I know the answer!
I admit, I'm jealous of people who have parents who were musicians, who got them into music and encouraged them by word and example. And I'm jealous of people who had an "angel"--an established performer with contacts--who took a liking to them and their music and opened doors for their music career.
But I can't complain. No one owes me anything. If someone comes along and offers to help, I'll definitely take it, and appreciate it. If not, I'll just keep plugging along.
My philosophy is, if you create and perform music that you love, the worst thing that can happen is... you'll create and perform music that you love. So what if I don't "make it"--whatever that means. But I'm doing what I love. Not such a bad outcome.
Well, in his case he wanted help in the money area, the place where the rubber meets the asphalt. Fact is, we all get help in our pursuit.
Who made your instrument? Who developed it? Who sold it and supports it when you break it? Who taught you to use it or inspired you to take it up for those who are self taught? Who provides you with the entire tech needed today to get a cdr, dvd or mp3 out?
Plenty of help along this path. Some even free.
Does it discourage one when the funds are not there to move on up a few steps? Sure. It’s a challenge to get around this obstacle. I often point out, there are x aluminum cans out there on the side of the road. They are $1.60 an lb in my area right now. When I am short and I want to get something that I need for my studio, you will find me out there picking them up. The point is not how you get the cash but the will.
Life is full of obstacles, this is only one more.
If you do not believe in yourself, forget it. Your skin has to be thick and your wit sharp.
And it does help if you do make music your fans find a desire for. Of course, there is Taxi, they will give you a ton of this advice when you send your work in. Money will be needed for the return in education they provide. (not a Taxi member am I, the styles of music I do, are not for the masses)
Dale
Inquisitor Betrayer
Coming from a military service bands career background has both, practical advantages and fundamental disadvantages. Advantages include the gaining of qualified professional experience and developing legitimate expertise covering most of the significant areas within the professional field of music. Disadvantages seem to be centered in the paradigm of likely having missed out on the types of networking that are so vital to acceptance within the jazz "community" and are generally established during initial formative years. So, at this matured stage in my career, in some ways I am 20 years ahead, and in others, I am 20 years behind. However, I seem to be maintaining a balance with this inherent dynamic nonetheless.
Considering all of the above, I have learned not to take myself "too seriously" and am therefore able to concentrate on creating music more so for the sake of the art of music, rather than predominantly as a commercial product. For me, this music is not about one's "ego" nor about "competition" with other musicians. Ultimately, life as a musician has been a lot of fun so far and I have paid a lot of dues...
I never bought into the "rat race" of "getting sign and bankrolled", so I have been doing most of this mostly by myself all along. I've made some mistaken associations, but that comes with learning in the digital music world. Things like that happen during the course of trying. But, I "make things happen"; thing's don't "happen to me"...
Peace, Cb
HI DEREK! GREAT ARTICLE. MY STORY MAY SOUND OH SO FAMILIAR. I OPENED A RECORDING STUDIO 10 YEARS AGO ONLY TO PUT MY SOLO CAREER ON HOLD. AFTER YEARS OF LEARNING THE MUSIC INDUSTRY (THE HARD WAY) I FINALLY DECIDED TO FOCUS ON SELF AND RELEASE MY DEBUT ALBUM. I WAS SO PROUD TO FINALLY PRODUCE MY PROJECT BUT MY EXCITEMENT WAS QUICKLY EXSTINGUISHED BY OTHERS PRESSURING ME ABOUT OVERNIGHT SUCCESS-(YOU KNOW-YOU GOT A DEAL YET?) I GOT SO CAUGHT UP WITH THIS-I THOUGHT I WAS'NT SUCCESSFUL UNLESS I HAD A DEAL. SO, INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON SELLING MY PRODUCT(CD) I IMEDIATELY STARTED WORRYING ABOUT GETTING SIGNED TO A MAJOR LABEL. AFTER COUNTLESS DAYS AND WASTED MONEY ON PURSUING A RECORD DEAL I FINALLY DECIDED TO START MY OWN LABEL AND SIGN MYSELF. MY ONLY WORRY NOW IS SURROUNDING MYSELF WITH POSITIVE PEOPLE THAT CAN HELP ME PROMOTE MY PROJECT(S).
Anyone investing in a band in this market would be foolish anyway!
My personal strategy is to do my best and see what comes of it.
And by my best I mean everything within my abilities, but also expanding my abilities so I can constantly do more.
It would encourage me, I really don't count on others to help. When they do thats great and is an added bonus. I rely on hard work. If you work hard and do great work people will notice and therefore you will succeed.
Reality is reality - it's always the best starting point. If you want people to help you just start "Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you..." Start helping other musicians and soon help will start flowing back in your direction. Of course, none of them are going to invest $500,000 in you, and really, while money's a big help it's not the answer - it spends too quickly. Friends and alliances stick around. Better to build a networking empire that allows you to generate excitement on a shoestring budget than to watch a small fortune disappear leaving you to wonder how you're going to continue to operate without it.
If you want people to help, you'll have to create a need that they recognize and then let them approach you. That's the best way to get a team together. Let people knock on your door and you'll get the best out of them. In the meantime, push on with your music. I gave up asking for help years ago and you know what help came along without asking...
Its a bit discouraging... not that I don't like being in control, and I'm not lazy... I have lots of energy and passion to put it all the effort thats needed. But I'm already writing music.. recording and producing, booking gigs, doing my live lights and PA, maintaing a website, myspace, twitter sites, a contact list keeping people informed, all graphics and logos, photos and pics, and press etc... Oh, and working 60plus hours per week at my 'day' job! No one could be expected to be an expert at all these things... so you can't help but realize that some aspects have to be suffering. Could I be booking more gigs if I had more time to get out and hit the pavement? Could we be building a bigger fan base if I had more time to promote each gig?
Most of the elements are there, and we do a good job on most things... but the one hurdle that seems too high is how to crack mainstream radio and press? I think its a closed industry and somebody from the inside has to take you on board.. I don't see any other way around it.
What? The entire creative industry (and the survival of humanity) is built on help. If no one is helping you, you're probably not helping anyone else, either. Go out and help ten different people and see what happens.
usually i think that all what happens to you cause beacause of you .i think your personality shows some thing to every one and if you are ready for a success it will happen .there is also a a matter of how much you want it and what you are willing to pay for it . there is also timming that is important to make thinks happen in time .so back to the question ,it brings me back to remind me i must work hard and keep trying, doing what i like (which is not hard)till i am there,and try to help other people succeed ,maybe it will open a door for me too.
While you wait for the big ship, keep swimming and keep asking for help. Most if not all doors will be close, however there might one day be the opportunity where you're ready after being tried and molded and surgerized to humility and the door does open.
You have to believe in your contribution of your talents to this world, but if you want to make a fast buck, it might happen too. Comparison will drive you nuts, so stick to your own calling and advertise your music, even if it's not quite there yet.
Mean time, keep writing, keep educating and brushing up your skills. Best to all who endear the winds and the cold and make it to the top. - Vivian Khor
It doesn't depress me, but 'encourage' isn't the word I would use. Perhaps it just steels my resolve to succeed in my field.
I think there's a problem in any either/or question: it doesn't have to be just one or the other.
Sometimes, you can get no help - and that can be good - you grown, you learn; but you can hit a wall where you need someone else's experience or knowledge.
You can get offers of free help - that are worth every penny. But sometimes that "free" help (word of mouth, say), can hook you into new sales and new gigs you don't expect; because you don't know who knows who.
You can just as often pay for pro help that's no help at all, because they're doing it for the money - not you, not your art, not your "style". Just because you don't mind accepting you have a "product to sell" doesn't mean you want to be "Diane Warren" product if you want to be "Elvis Costello" product.
And sometimes you're looking for someone to help, because you're really looking for someone to blame.
And sometimes, if you do some research and get some good references, paying for help really pays off.
One person can find all of this, at different stages of a career.
I'm a big fan of Plan B. Have a Plan B. Call the pro agent; but if he doesn't call back - don't stop booking your own gigs in the meantime.
I started as a guitar player but soon learned to sing cause nobody I met would show up on time and when they did show up they were drunk!, I then learned to record cause I saw very quickly that all the recording engineers just want your money. I learned how to drums,bass,sing,guitar,record produce,promote and the only other person involved in my project (the mix)screwed it up and I went from full length to EP! but I'm really a positive person really. over&out, lunarman
Derek - why are all the posts given single digit numbers - did you want only 10 comments?
After 51 years in the music business, I czn tell you it isn't what you've got, or how good you are, it's who you know. You won't get anywhere unless you know somebody really well who can do it, or who knows somebody else who can. The best thing for young musicians to do is cultivate friendships among those who are "on the way up", or, if possible, with those who are already there. Talent has some bearing on it, but not nearly as much as who you know. Lots of people have talent, but there's room for only a few on the charts, and many hit records have proven that a lot of talent isn't necessary for a hit record. Practice so you'll have the skill to earn the respect of those you need, then make friends with them.
unfortunately, I can't comment on wether it makes me happy or sad, as it's just so obvious, and has been for so long, that it doesn't affect me emotionally at all.
The upshot is, you can only, ever, rely on yourself. No one else cares. Even your closest friends and family have a breaking point. You're the only one who will go beyond that to make things happen for yourself. Accepting that will not bring you success, but will get you a lot closer.
The whole reason I'm on CD Baby is because no one ever 'has' helped me. CD Baby allows us all to bypass all the red tape and go directly to the people. I realize you (Derek) have separated from CD Baby, and if I could have laid palm leaves on the ground in front of you during your exit I probably would have. The web and digital in general are progressively making agents and Music companies irrelevant and now, more and more, it's just up to the artist. If he/she is financially successful great, if not, it's no ones fault but the artist's, because there are almost no barriers now, that would have otherwise been there in the past. More and more instead of gigantic conglomerates putting a lot into a few artists, the industry is moving towards putting a little bit into a lot of artists, thus creating a healthy middle class of musicians that otherwise would have been left out in the cold. Help from investors is no longer relevant, in this artist’s opinion; it's just a matter now, of at least trying to make great music that people will also buy.
Just like not everyone is born to sing, not everyone is born with a business head. I will be making music of some kind or another until I die. I may or may not ever be able to make a living doing it, but it's what I'm good at and it's what I love. I don't think it's unfair to be critical of the current musical-cultural environment, and I think it's possible to still make a realistic assessment and take action for yourself in that environment. I wish everyone could be a little less cut-throat gung-ho and a little more live-and-let-live, as we are all in this together and should be working for the common good of a musically rich culture, not to beat the other musicians to the 6-digit income. (hell, 5 digits would be nice)
Experience has taught me that, ultimately, each of us is alone in the world. We come into this life alone and we leave it that way, even if were are surrounded by our loved ones on either occasion. No one can be you and, thus, no one can care about you as much as you do. The very fact of our individuality is what separates us from each other. It is also what makes us each unique and it is our uniqueness that makes us each precious and special. Know that and make the world see how special you are.
It's encouraging and discouraging. While we all need a helping hand, NO ONE can promote You better than You!
So get on it! Empower yourself and learn how to do the things you want others to do for you. You'll be smarter.
I just started a blog for musicians called GRASSROOTSY. It gives great advice for how to get your name out there in clever, simple, practical ways.
http://www.grassrootsy.wordpress.com
This has been my reality for over 20 years. I think that if someone is discouraged by this post they are in the wrong business. Music is a labor of love. It's great that I've been able to eek a living out of it too. I'm grateful, but I also do odd jobs when I need to. Noone is entitled to "help" but when it comes it sure is nice. I've struggled doing this stuff on my own for so long. Some times I do a better job then others. I'm still here making music and doing what I love. If its not your passion, don't waste your time--get a day job and play music for your friends in the living room.
blessings to all.
alice
It doesn't discourage me now, but once upon a time it did, when I thought that I needed other people to succeed, and I held unrealistic, grandiose expectations about how much money I could make.
Once I saw the statistics, and I realized that the thing to which I then aspired was being a widget of the fortune-driven star machine, I got over it.
I'm reminded just how many times I have been helped, often by people who seemed to have no self interest involved. There are lots of people helping me all of the time. Not only do I need to remember that, but I need to be grateful for it and find more ways that I can be of help as well. Thanks for reminding me.
Whether discouraging or inspiring, the choice is yours. Once you decide to take the reins & make it happen, there's no one else standing in your way.
The encouraging element, everyone else is in your same boat. No one else is going to get a $500,000 angel investor. So the only thing you have to do is outrun everyone else.
As for agents, if you're grossing $5000/mo. I think you're going to attract a very low-level agent. Most mid-level agencies aren't interested unless you're making $5000/night & the big agencies aren't interested until you're up to $10,000 (at least).
Good luck to all.
"I need someone to invest $500,000 into my band for radio, touring, recording, videos, PR, payola, etc. "
So I say, no one will hand you fame and glory on a silver plate, but there IS help out there, just not in the way of half a million dollars.
... lol! I don't mean to laff out loud but c'mon, I need half a mil to become successful? Listen to that logic. Just let it soak in.. I need... half a MILLION.. !!! If you had that kind of bank you wouldn't even strive to achieve, you're already rich! Joe the Plumber Band pandering for the high life is like wishing to get struck by a lightning bolt full of lottery tickets.
"No one will help you." Well technically Derek's helped me. And he's sure not a no one,
What happened to "Call the place you want to be, and ask how to get there."? Sure we are all going to need to do things our self, but if you dont know how or when to do things, you have to ask for help. Its not discouraging to know that I wont be getting 500,000 to fund my band, but it would be if I couldnt go to someone and ask 'How can I do this better?'.
Instead of asking for half a million dollars, one should ask, if half a million people heard my music or saw it live, how many would buy a CD or come to the next show? If your not picking up a high percentage of fans from shows, you're probably not that special.
Dear Dereck:
I have a lot to say about this subject--Most of which makes me extremely unpopular in this business-- I feel both encouraged and discouraged because like most other businesses it is the top tier that can make or break you and it takes a team effort to make a record and artist truly successful--There are a lot of variables that must be considered and for most indie artists investment of not only thier time and their soul but a heck of a lot of money--in any business situation it is sticking with it that eventually makes you successful as long as you have a product people are willing to purchase --Although I am motivated by the naysayers the reality is that with out radio, the agents and the media on board this business is a money pit--the most important thing an artist can do for themseleves in my opinion is connect with their fan base on all levels and cultivate that specifically --That is best chance you have and I do think there are people like yourself that can help and are willing to help and indie artist if you can manage that on your own--Question of the day what is the most effcient way to do that and is it the same for all artists?
Was somebody supposed to help me?
It's always discouraging initially - you always have that glimmer of hope that this time or this person will be the one that comes on board. IN the end though i just use their rejection as motivation to prove them wrong or show them the opportunity they missed out on - petty maybe, but hey it works!
I have been seeking investors/advisers etc for a year now with no luck.
I run a successful rehearsal space, an indie label with regionally established acts with plans to go national in 2009, partner in a co-working space and I have a web service in the works. If it wasn't for my banker at my credit union I'd be screwed.
But, I am not going to stop doing what I am doing [one positive is that it forces you to make tough decisions and control spending] and I am not going to stop looking for investors or partners.
And one day i will achieve all my goals either on my own or with the help of someone's money.
Times are and will be tough, but I honestly believe this is the best time to date to be a musician or music focused company. The number of opportunities are endless, just requires some solid goals, planning and persistence.
Holy shit 100 people commented in the time I took to read the responses!!!
It has always been this way. Unless you were willing to sell you soul to the big labels. The best thing to ever happen was CDBABY. We don't need them.
The fact that no one will help I think is really to our advantage. We learn more about the business and about life in general.
And if we are lucky enough to find success. Then we can say we did it on our own.
I suppose you have to wrestle with what you're "in it" for....
would you do your music whether you "make it" or not?
there are always outlets for your musical expression (paid and unpaid) if you're willing to sow your seed...
I play and sing and record because it's in my bones.....I play live because I like spreading the encouragment to those who may enjoy my folkish music....
There is the thought that a little outside help would be nice for the purpose of pouring more time and effort into what I love doing most....
but I was raised in the underground/punk rock tradition which has it's roots in a very "DIY" philosophy....
so for now, it's "one foot in front of the other...."
I find it encouraging. The modern music industry by its own standards,is failing. I don't think that kind of partnership suits me. Instead of "Nobody's going to help me," I think, "Look at everything I get to do, any way I want! Maybe I can do it better." Whether that means by myself or with people who care, it's really exciting.
I'm the kind who'd rather walk than wait for a bus without a schedule. Whether the bus comes or not, walking will ALWAYS get me there. There's no other possible outcome! Now that's exciting.
There's plenty of success for everyone. There's plenty of love for everyone. For me to win, no one else has to lose.
If it's all up to me it's never gonna happen. I am the record label, the A+R, I've hired promotion, sent to radio, mixshows, record pools, played out, called & sent packages to music supervisors. I write, produce + engineer my demos, find a producer I can afford, design my website, make my clothes, and try to network the best I can. I have failed in building a sustainable fanbase. I've sold maybe 30 CDs. It's a no win situation for me. I've spent over 150k. The few people I have done business with have ripped me off. My husband thinks I'm delusional. I'm beginning to believe him. I'm coming to the realization that I don't have what it takes to make money making music. You need to be like an Olympic athlete. It's too hard. I know, an attitude like this won't get me anywhere, but I'm over it. I'm tired, depressed and discouraged. For today anyway. I'm going back to bed......
That is encouraging. Duh!
Plus, there is always somebody who will help you. YOU KNEW THAT!
I believe people help me all the time,just not when I expect it and sometimes inadvertently. I did not have a desire to write lyrics to my music, so I put myself in a situation (songwriters networking group) where I found the right collaborator. I have musician friends who constantly give me tips and ideas to help my promotion efforts. I have friends and family that are a source of encouragement. I find new people on the internet that listen to and sometimes buy my music. All of these things may not be to the degree that I wish them to be, but it happens enough to keep me going and keeps me on the journey. I create my journey and the path I start with is my own, but my path can change for the better on the information I receive from others. May I suggest reading "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell?
It sure opened my eyes to understanding some of the hidden elements needed to achieve material success.
Best Regards,
Mark/Maple Bridge
I think your answer was a good one but incomplete.
The reality is that we all need supporters of various kinds, and *everyone* out there who's successful (even you Derek) has people backing them up in various ways. I think it's important to be appreciative of who and what we have and build on our strengths.
I agree that the myth of being "discovered" needs to change. In the new model, each artist must get herself to a certain point where "the industry" can't help but take note. Getting to that point takes lots of hard work and being a self-starter. And there's no guarantee that after all your efforts, you'll actually get that industry attention and investment you're looking for. But that's what this business requires. Hard work, talent, intelligence perseverance, and luck.
It's all about building a note-worthy story and generating enough excitement and "buzz" around what you do that you stand out and attract those "investors" you're looking for. At that point you may choose to partner up with an agent, label, publisher etc. or you may decide that you like doing it indie style and stick to that.
This industry is not for the faint at heart. Be prepared for lots of uncertainty and a whole lot of ups and downs. You must ask yourself, "Is there anything else I could do and be happy?" If the answer is "yes", then I say, get out while you still can. But if the answer is "no" then buckle up and prepare for the ride of your life!
Good luck to you all!
T. Nile
It's discouraging. Even though it might be true. Derek, you have an amazing gift of expressing yourself, knowing how to draw attention to your expression (some magnetism that can't really be learned, that is not the product of hard work) that could get a whole lot of people to sniff your butt and agree with whatever you say.
Of course what you say sounds good...ur the man! You've got thousands of us dreaming, and that's worthwhile. I've been doin my thing close to twenty years, since I was a babe. I'm not too sure if I'm doing something wrong, but things haven't worked out as planned. There's always a part of me that says...they'll come someone who will help me make it big. I'd be going up against mass media, advertisement, and all those scam companies out there saying they can help with the right amount of money, but they all know its up to me, my skill, my talent, but also luck, also the grace of what is meant to be I suppose.
Life is like a game of Texas Hold 'em, sure it's up to me to play my cards right, but I've got to make some good spreads to keep up the fight, and to win the big one...but who says the big one will make me happy? What does success mean to me? I may not be able to get there no matter how hard I try, and modifying my dream, may not suit me either. So, what to do?
That's good.I am injoying every monment doiung my own thing.To me it's relly not about the money, because I'am doing what I love to do, and paying the bills. And I have a lots of fans all over the world. Also I am total Independent. I donot wish to have anyone over me.Keep it CLEAN. Mr. C.B.S
While our band was together (Blue Steel 44) we accomplished alot together. We released 8 indie cds and recorded with a Grammy-winning songwriter and producer. Since the break-up of the band I have been flying solo....but I haven't stopped. Since the band's dissolution, I have gone back to my roots and released 6 solo albums (mostly blues--Matt Luther Wells and Luther albums) where I did everything myself from my home studio. What that means in the real world is that I have released or appeared on nearly as many albums as bands like Huey Lewis and News and the Cars. It is not always easy flying solo but it can be done if you are persistent and healthy. And sometimes if you fly solo, you can occasionally get help from the most unusual people and places.
Well As I Never Expected Or Desired To Be "Bailed Out" In Any Business Or Personal Life Circumstance I Wouldn't Have Posed The Questions That Way. If I'm Talking To A Marketing Executive, Whom I Belive Has A Sharper Marketing Acumen Than I Do, Then I Want To Know What Their Latest Strategies Are, Succesful Or Otherwise. Just Because It Didn't Work Well For Them Doesn't Mean I Might Not Have Better Luck With A Slightly Different Approach And Or Target.
Growing my courage
I find it best to arrive at a neutral position on this question. My music is about as resolutely uncommercial as one could imagine. As a result, it's really not about "making it" for me. I like to do things myself. Publicity always takes something away from the artistic enterprise. If many people were interested in what I'm doing, I'd feel like I was on the wrong track. One is instead looking for those few that wish to expose themselves to something really soul-expanding. Someone has to keep the fires of esotericism burning.
If you are s self-starter you wouldn't be acing these questions.
I find it every interesting that there are still lots of people who think everything is going to be handed to them and then when reality is explained to them they find it discouraging. I was talking to a friend of mind the other night that has produced many famous bands. Well 4 years ago he started his own band. Where did he get the money to record and go on tour - it was all his. Why? Because it was his project and this is something that he wanted to do, so he did it. So even with his connection no one would invest.
I guess I think that as soon as you take off the training wheels and really get moving, if you've got any musical/social skill, there will be people around you that will likely consider you a good investment. This has absolutely been my experience. It seems universally true... No favors, no pity, just work hard. Build your career on YOURSELF. Your skills, your charisma. Further, don't let your desire to succeed even shadow your newfound industry friends. To expand on your theory about listening well at conferences, I think that the real thing at hand is the serendipity principle. If you really let go of your urges to use people, people will accept you for who you are and Voala, you've got me impressed. Sad to say life is about more than bootstrapping. The people that you encounter as you gain momentum will be some of the most delightful people you ever meet. People you could stay up all night over beers with the first time you meet them. The ultimate loss would be for you to miss these amazing friendships.
To me it's a bit like learning the chords of a song from a songbook. Might be quicker and easier but the songs I learned by myself are the ones I still remember and enjoy playing!
I'd imagine most everyone reading Derek's blogs are Independent musicians and so you really shouldn't be expecting too much to come from the outside, should you?
Would you invest 500,000 in something you didn't know? I don't think so.
The more I realise that I actually create my own life the more I realise I also create my own opportunities.
I have mixed feelings, but overall, I'd say this makes me feel better. It motivates me because it shows me that Im on the right track, and there are a lot of bands struggling right now.
Our band is new and this is my first go at it, so it's easy to question yourself and assume you are doing something wrong. This help reassure me we are on the right track.
I think it's downright depressing. Not only is no one going to help, but no one knows how even if they were willing. I think the days of good music are dead. Even CD Baby was better when Derek ran it. The future looks like a pile of black mushy stuff, encased in a shiny plexiglass box that has one of those stickers on it that says, "Featuring the hit single Macarena 2". We could all come together on a website like this and make ourselves feel better about how unknown we all are, and think... "Well everyones in the same boat, but maybe I have the ability to shine." but unless you've got money, or some kind of marketable aspect you're really no where. So I say give up. Not me though, I'm awesome. In all seriousness I agree with Larry Donn.
Hello, great question, but as always your response is correct.
I have noticed that society in general has come to blame everyone else for their own individual problems...I was late because the bus was late...I did poor in school because the teachers were bad...my band is not famous because I do not have a record contract...a manager...and then it is always the manager or the record company is no good...and that is why I failed...it has nothing to do with me...oh, how wrong !
My rule in life is....if you take responsibility for your life onto yourself...all of a sudden you are in control...what a concept...and I am no longer at the mercy of the bus, or teachers, record companies or managers....wow !
My feeling is that too many people think they are great songwriters or musicians just because it is them...to much into self. The bands that make it and the songwriters that make it have spent a lot of years working on their craft, developing their stage presence, building contacts... it is work...hard work, that few are interested in doing...why...a million reasons. Everyone wants the easy way out !Derek is correct....if you are not making $5000 a month on gigs, you do not belong on a record company roster...you are not ready. Maybe your songs are really bad or your stage presence is horrible...so what...work on it...you are not born perfect. Get to work and play the little clubs, every little place possible in your neighborhood, write with friends...get to work...yeah...and have fun ! Things will happen for the good...'you only get what you need, not what you want'...where have I heard that...play hard !!
I agree! You answered honestly and correctly. When we are looking for someone to help us we are just looking for someone to do the work for us.
The bottom line is that everyone wants to start working one project when the work is already done. Therefore, we have to do all the work ourselves. Then, and only then, will we take complete ownership and when we have made all of sacrifices and put in the countless hours we won't want anyone to come in and take all the credit (financially and otherwise). Why should they be allowed to do so when you are the one who has done all of the work.
Therefore, do the work yourself...you'll feel better for it in the end.
Wow this is a really interesting thread, and one that speaks to me at a core level. I don't know if you will ever read this, Derek - or if anyone else will - as it's already got 130 responses - but here goes.
At this point, your statement motivates me. It wouldn't have a decade ago. Early on I was promised help in the form of a contract with Warner Bros. Very exciting - until it fell through. Then a year later, I had a gazillionaire invest in my project - I didn't even have to look, he found me - he was wanting to do something meaningful with his money, and loved my band. Turned out his money was all in tech stocks in early 2K. Need I say more?
The point is, it has been pounded into me that even when you can get outside help, there can be complications if your own foundation isn't already solid. We were completely dependent on these things making or breaking us, and the two disappointments in a row shut us down as a band for several years.
However, part of this reclusive phase was coming to terms with the notion that no one is going to save me, even though they may want to. I have spent the last 8 years becoming much more tech and business savvy myself so that I can take control of my online presence.
I learned about real estate and flipped a property so I could afford a good recording studio. I am able to make in-house music videos by partnering with a cinematographer. Yes, that is help, and yes we do need a team. But we must bring something to the table besides just our fabulous music to win these types of allies. My music career has grown very slowly, but I am just recently starting to reap the fruits of this long planning phase, and I am feeling more excited about music than I ever have.
I am in my early 40's now, however. If there were one thing I wish, it was that I had come to these realizations earlier on. I can only hope that my audience still considers me vibrant enough to be inspired by me. I think I am but people surprise me sometimes.
It is hard sometimes. I wish I could just be a musician, and not also a web designer, accountant, business person, marketing specialist, etc...and yet, I have grown into a more confident and competent person as a result of all of this.
I began my musical endeavors in the era when getting a record deal was the ultimate holy grail - and almost got one. I watched the collapse of the music industry and it's subsequent rising from the ashes into something that gives me a great deal of hope after long dispair. I truly feel that I have witnessed the passing of an era and am still alive and vital enough to take advantage of the new world.
This is very exciting to me and is a grand adventure that I give thanks for living every day.
I suppose that is long enough! Not sure this will be read but was actually empowering to write. I sometimes forget that I have created a pretty good situation for myself and these musings remind me.
Bsiness savvy is somethng that can be learned by any one of us, and it gets easier, and I wish everym musician here all the best with it.
Sincerely, Sharon Knight
Ain't much call around these parts for original music. Everybody wants you to do 90% covers, which just isn't my thing any more. So the few gigs that I do are usually open mics and jam nights. Some are fun to do, some are just "do it and don't sweat it" gigs, (I'm doing one tonight that is a nice place, gets a good crowd but it's noisy and the owner doesn't do much to to foster respect for the musicians).
I just keep pushing and promoting my music on-line. I'd be real happy just to sell off an entire 100 CD order some time. Maybe something will come of this, maybe not, but at 55, I figure I'd better say what I have to say musically now before time takes it's toll on the mind and body.
I keep hoping for that break, even a small one, cause without hope, well we have all been down that road.
Tony
Without taking the time to read hardly any of the responses (because I want to be the original!), my reply to self promotion comes from one conundrum(?) regarding talent and two necessary traits.
The talent issue can involve true expertise or dumb luck. In "mainstream" jazz, a true medium of improvisation, listeners tend to be more hip on true talent. That said, the enterprising player can still go a long way before determining that they can't quite fit. I would guess that relates to "the peter principle" in business? But lets assume that you do have the talent. Your initiative and work ethic (big picture) and that all important "attitude" ingredient, are what will achieve successful results. Like I say, my thing is jazz but if your particular venue is hot or can be hot with a core (usually younger) audience, do not go to sleep! But otherwise, stay the course, work every angle and most importantly, pretend that no one but you can get it done.
I think it's neither encouraging nor discouraging... it's just the truth. Hell, I wouldn't invest in some random band... not in this economy.
There are people who will help with advice (such as yourself) and with critiquing your music (such as taxi... for a fee), but the bottom line is that you can only 'get' if you 'give.'
I work around some people who seem to be on a constant search for that "magic bullet to success," and it ALWAYS makes me nervous. People get too sidetracked seeking out Mr. Goodbar instead of focusing on the meat & potatoes of working their dreams into reality.
Thank you for your posts.
When I REALLY was in show biz,('62-2000) I wasn't a singer really and was lucky if I made an average of $10,000 per year. I quit in 2000 and then some songs came to me about inspiring others to do Tai Chi & Qigong. I got excited after getting a gig even before the CD was done. That got me printing 1000, copies and I could barely give 'em away. I found out I was happy teaching. I still occassionally perform them for people. I considered my entire career successful as I never had to take on office or restaurant work. I knew how to live cheaply and SIMPLY. I am 62 and if anybody wants inspiration to get in shape in mind, body and spirit,see my links on www.taoTLC.com My advice is to be happy with what's in front of you.
In the words of the philosopher Kant; "it depends"
You don't actually know that no-one will invest in you so optimism can work both ways....do it yourself-let the situation snowball,which it will if you keep on it AND ask relevant investors (suckers? surely not!)at various stages-keep them informed and report success, however small. However do not delude yourself-bullshit should remain creative and based on truth-there are really no secrets!
When you work a day job, you never phrase requests using "me" -- it's always about what's best for the company. I think that's a good rule for music -- your network and how you can help the people you know is more important than "give me half a million so I can succeed."
I don't mind being alone and controlling my own destiny. But beware the predators, saboteurs and haters. Never in my life did I know such people existed. But I will persist. Knowing that I am a good person is its own reward.
Yes, it's discouraging, but that is the reality in any career. If you don't have the interest enough in what you do to pursue opportunities, the opportunities will not come to you.
There are plenty of barriers and reasons NOT to do something, but by having the desire and passion involved you can always make your opportunities.
Being a female trumpet player and composer in a highly male dominated field (where there are very few female role models), I continue to make my own opportunities.
There is honestly nothing better than creating what you want when you want to create it; producing what you want when you want to produce it. The best of all opportunities and the highest level of freedom falls under the umbrella of being independent.
It may require initiative and self-motivation, but if you love what you're doing and you're creating what you want to create, it's not work at all.
And if you keep doing what you love to do every single day, others will notice. Others will come to look at you as an expert at what you do because you've been at it so long.
Also a couple tips -
1. Hold onto all of your writer and publisher share ownership for everything you create.
2. License your work non-exclusively.
If it doesn't motivate you, you're already dead.
Thanks, Derek, for devoting your life to helping the indie and unknown musicians who, nonetheless, create some of the best music around. Concerning myself, I spent years going to Songwriter's Guild meetings and sending out demos to record labels, but never attracted the attention of any kind of label..(except rejection notices). Then came the time that I decided to do it alone. Despite being a "starving" musician with limited funds, God somehow saw to it that I had enough money to record and release CDs. Now, ten years later, I have a discography of 5 albums and I actually sell some of them! Since I'm on my own, just about all of the money from sales is mine to keep except for my online distributor. Enough money has come in for me to buy some new keyboard equipment, a new piano for my teaching business and pay some bills. I'm glad that I didn't wait around for a record label to sign me and be my saviour, because I'd still be waiting. No, I'm not wealthy, and I'm struggling like everyone else, but I have total creative control over my career with no compromise. That is better than being under the thumb of some greedy corporate company who could care less about the music.
It's you vs the World. Everything is up to you. Everything is in your hands. Embrace that, focus on it, and the sky is the limit. Like magic.
Making music is the easy part. Knowing what you really want out of life and how you want to spend your time is the tricky part.
I think each of us has our own path to follow, and no one really knows how much time we have to follow that path. As musicians we make our business decisions and we create our music and we try to get people to listen. I think we're the lucky ones. Certainly anyone reading Derek's blogs here is in a better situation than someone born into poverty and starvation in a third world country with no Internet access. For those of us born into a life where we have the opportunity to make music for a living, it seems to me that you really only get out of life what you put into it.
That's my two cents, for what it's worth.
That picture is entirely appropriate. I lived on a boat for ten years and used to watch people get into trouble because they didn't take care of things themselves. And often there wasn't any help.
Every songwriter/composer/performer is unique and cookie cutter solutions are of little value--at best you must conform to them, rather than working from your own strengths. By having to do it, you learn how to translate what is good about what you do into something the audience relates to.
But Derek--you already help me!
It's called "Drumming On the Edge of Banjo" and wait till you hear it. 
You got me a barcode when I couldn't afford a thousand copies--and you digitized my tunes and got them on itunes and online--and then I made enough to get the thousand copies for my new CDs.
And--so far--I'm doing okay in a minor way--and I'm not sure how to attract the big bucks or big producers--or even an agent--but every year I do a little better--and I get better stage shows, better workshops and make more friends and fans--and in 2009--I've got a plan to expand into a different genre--so maybe that will help.
Hey--I'm going to make a thousand CDs--get a barcode--get on itunes--maybe some several someones will help me--maybe not. But--my music is being heard--its getting out there--and folks like it!
2009 is going to be a good year--I can just feel it.
And Derek--you're already helping me get to big time stuff I would not have a chance at if you were not already helping.
I'm an artist who figured out a while ago that no one was going to hand me a music career, so I made an album on my own. I put everything I had into it and am still proud of the product 4 years later, but the hard truth is that the skill set needed to be successful at doing EVERYTHING yourself is not something most artists have (and I'm no exception). I'm smart, pragmatic, hard-working, and I have a strong product, but I'm not good at 24/7 schmoozing and networking and hustling. I tried the self-promotion thing and burned out on it. It's a soul-sucking endeavor for me, so I stopped. So my professional-sounding album just collects dust. Because I was never that interested in fame & fortune anyway, this is OK with me, but I do think it's sad that to make it in this industry talent at self-promotion trumps talent at making music any day of the week. So to answer your question honestly, I think most artists would find this news (though it shouldn't be news to anyone over 18 - it's reality) discouraging AT SOME POINT...
actually, i think DIY is a lie.
it's like the fairytale i bought into as a child, where i was going to grow up and meet a charming man and we'd ... this and that and next thing you know it's happily ever after.
that ain't gonna happen.
and neither is my musical career going to be DIY!!
DIY is a myth. it's a misleading lie that sets the bar WAY too low.
HELL NO, i'm not gonna spend my musical career doing everything myself! i'm gonna work my butt off and grow my business and hire people i really like who are great at what they do, and who will then go kick some serious ass on my behalf!
i've had way too many artists contact me asking if i might introduce them to my booking agent, or if i know of "any good booking agents".
HELL NO i'm not introducing you to my booking agent. a) she's way too busy to take on anybody new, b) she won't care for your music anyway and c) you're a loser!
YOU ARE A LOSER if you think there is any good, legitimate booking agent anywhere on god's green earth who is going to take you on if you haven't first worked your balls off to get your career to a place that makes taking you on an inviting prospect.
how did i get a booking agent? i worked two full-time jobs for about five years: my day job and my music job. i booked myself three overseas tours in the last year and half, this last one almost three months long. including gigs, in-stores and in-studios, we had no fewer than 75 engagements in 6 different countries. for that tour, i booked 90% of all that myself, took care of everything, carried around my HUGE binder full of contracts, paid for everything myself. and came back with just shy of $15,000 USD profit after all expenses.
that's how you get a phone call from a booking agent.
this fall i was wined and dined by the UK's largest acoustic music booking agency. i was also approached by a small agency.
i turned down the big one. i didn't have a good gut feeling about them. even though that agency has been around forever and has a great reputation, i decided that i didn't think an agent at a large agency was going to be nearly as hungry as i need them to be. so i went with the smaller agency. and my new agent - she is kicking ass. i know her and i can fully trust her and i know she will do nearly as good a job as i could. it is worth the 15% to me so i have hired that work out to her.
this year i was offered two deals from two different record companies.
i turned them all down. you know why?
because i am already doing it better myself.
there ARE people who will be your booking agent. they ARE in your future. but there is only ONE way to get to them.
there ARE people who will invest in you. they ARE in your future. but there is only ONE way to get to them.
it's called work. it's called doing more work than you thought it possible to do. it's called taking a break from your work to do more work.
don't accept DIY as your forever future.
go kick some f**king ass!!!
lovingly,
rachel
I would love to have a team of people who are excited about my music and want to get behind it. To have a team just to be sitting on a roster not being promoted or in a catalogue not selling and be able to put it in my bio as some kind of evidence of success...not worth it to me. But whether or not that team ever comes, I've been created to create, and that's what I'll do, regardless of the of the outcomes.
Am I discouraged or encouraged? Not sure. I'm leaning toward discouraged because I'm exhausted. And it's hard to keep the creative aspect of my life flowing (which is the most important to me) when I am also my own manager, bookkeeper (and terrible at it), booking agent, promoter, publicist, label...Not feeling sorry for myself, but the fact is I'm just plain tired.
Yep. You speaketh the truth.
I actually found an invester that put up $500,000. I wrote the music to lyrics that his friend, Larry Lind wrote. Now Larry claims and Joan Baez comfirmed that he wrote most of Dylans 60's hits. But they would not listen to me. He wasted $100,000 on a video I didn't need, paid a publicist $5,500 a month, that did nothing. Paid Micheal Wagener $75,00 to mix the album. Then had Paul Lani remix the album for $30,000. Moved me to LA in $3,400 a month house for a year. Paid over $40,000 for photo shoots, video pilot, live performence. He only allow 12 paid rehearsals with my band. He would not support touring or radio promo, the two things that actually build a fan base. The album scored 5 number 1 songs on the internet chart and was getting airplay on several stations. But he wouldn't follow up and make it work for us. So money unwisley spent, doesn't help. How I wish he would have taken my advise as I have over 30 years experience in the music business and know what works and what doesn't. The album, Dennis Logan S.O.S. is a great album that could have done much better if things were done right. What a same.
Realizing that nobody else is going to help you as a musician brings clarity to the present situation and helps when trying to plan the way ahead. It also helps prevent unrealistic expectations of what can be achieved and helps one to avoid the disappointments that inevitably occur when relying on other people. Self-reliance can be a little lonesome at times and the results may be modest to put it mildly, but at least they will be solid.
I have never expected any help, and that it when it presents itself, when I just don't expect it. That said, I do make pretty ok money gigging, while I am not making $5000 a month, I am making enough to believe in investing in myself and being happy to hire an agent to book me and a pr person to promote the shows he or she books..... any thoughts on that? I would be happy to hand someone $500 a month if they kept me working and the gigs promoted. ( I would still do my part to promote the gigs, I believe in being on board for all pieces of a project.)
It depends on my mood. When I am positive and enthusiastic about my job, the statement encourages me and I know I´ve got it all in my hands (thankfully that´s most of the time). However, when I am in a bad or lazy (some might call it premenstrual) mood, then the statement might discourage me. That´s just my personality!
Howdy folks -
I am going to ask someone to give me $500,000 so I can take my next musical on tour. But just in case nobody writes the check, I have some other plans.
I don't think it is discouraging to realize that you are responsible for your own success. But it is also sort of goofy to think you totally 'make it' on your own.
We need someone else to buy CDs, downloads and merch, somebody to listen, someone to tell others, someone to encourage us.
I love my own music, so I am very encouraged when someone else I've never met loves it enough to buy it.
The work starts with me. If there is something compelling about me/my music, I believe others will want to listen or buy or support my work somehow.
Having said all that, I'm apparently pretty bad at marketing. I really would like some help there. But I feel like someday, some time I'll figure out how to do that. Or I'll find somebody else who can help me with that. Or...downward mobility, here I come!
Chris Anderson
http://www.waitiam.com
Had to chuckle when I read that. Been true of many things in my life, although some serious help has come in unexpected ways from time to time. The key is not expecting it. I keep farming, beekeeping and playing music because I enjoy it. There is only a narrow window in life for doing all these things, having gotten a late start on all of them. Anything can happen to one at anytime, and it can all go away tomorrow. I once heard a local vendor say he finally learned he needed to pursue his particular market with a rifle, not a shotgun. Seems like it might apply to music as well, and I am now trying this strategy. Costs a lot less, and is far less frustrating.
Happy Holidays to everyone!
Best of luck in 2009!
xo
Being number 200. THAT'S gotta mean something right?
I've realized a looong long time ago that folks are always offering you something when you least need it. It's when you're looking for an assist that you'll most likely incur resistance. Hard lessons learned hard. We keep pushing.
Here's another take...
Look how many of us have written in, and how much experience we all have. How can we help ourselves and each other?
Chris Anderson
http://www.waitiam.com
Okay. 205? Cool.
Dadgummit!!! Nevermind, as long as I'm in there ;-)
Hate to say it, but your article is very discouraging. I totally agree with #8, Alex Oliviera. It is also realistic, as well as discouraging.
There's a difference between 'helping' someone by giving them advice or 'helping' them by giving them what they want. Part of helping yourself would be seeking out advice from friends (like someone connected to the music industry) who could maybe mention some names to contact, or some businesses to check into. Advice like the preachy sermon you gave would cause me to question your friendship.
Yes, we all know nobody is going to give you something for nothing. That was always true. And yes, musicians have to do the gruntwork of actually contacting agents, etc., and listen to the response of "Sorry, can't help you". But isn't this same scenario true of inventors, actors, small business owners, and the like? No one would put themselves thru this type of torment unless they saw some light at the end of the tunnel.
Your response to your friend was mean and smells a bit like bitterness on your end. What you should have said was "Gee, (lol) I don't know of anyone specific you can go to for that, but you can call this guy at ABC Agency and ask for advice. Tell 'em Derek sent you."
"As for the tour support, maybe you should pool together earnings from local gigs and save for a future tour. I know this girl at XYZ Records, and you should call her to find out what kind of money is needed to support a tour."
That's the type of help that friends give friends, or that musicians give other musicians. No bank just throws $$$ at an unproven small business, but if that same business comes in with a written plan, with earnings reports from the past year (doing business out of a home office), and is serious and determined in their interview, that business stands a good chance of getting a loan. [Notice - a LOAN, not a grant, to be repaid]
To encourage someone, you give them tools to suceed (ie, advice, contacts, etc); you're not giving them success. Musicians are no different than a small business, TV depictions to the contrary. Telling a musician that they will fail unless they do EVERYTHING themselves is not good advice. No one is an island to themselves, but the least you could have done would have been to offer suggestions on HOW to do the EVERYTHING. [I know you have done this in the past with other articles]
I think most of the respondees who were 'encouraged' by the article buy into the instant stardom idea foisted by TV (American Idol, anyone?) and movies. Derek, would you have ever started CDBaby if you had been told/read the same thing? Unrealistic encouragement is just as bad as realistic discouragement. After all, "Yes, we can" isn't just 3 words if you look at possibility vs. problems, but decide that you will overcome the problems.
Neither discouraged nor motivated. More like, focused maybe? Once I made a CD that I thought had original and good songs on them I set it loose and waited. And waited. And waited. Nothing happens in the entertainment business without some sort of buzz. Just so happens that Green Day gets more buzz than Wayne Morrison. Now I've adjusted my sights accordingly. That's not defeat taking. I'm not looking to be rich or famous but I do like selling some CDs and getting gigs so I've thinked, thanked, and rethunked it all. Now I'm ready. I'll keep going forward in one fashion or another. Whatever comes, I'll be ready.
Derek,
Self starters tend to be the only people that succeed. Those are the type of employees businesses look for. What would be different in music? Oh, I know, it's harder and there isn't a guaranteed salary at the end of the week - unless you go and secure the gigs yourself.
Thanks for the continued guidance and advice.
M
It's depressing, because it reinforces the fact that in this day and age, supporting an indie artist is a bad financial risk. Which then raises the question, is it a viable thing for YOU, the artist, to be doing in a serious way? Or are you just throwing money away?
It's one thing if you have another stable, flexible source of income. But if you want to make a serious go of it (which you need to do to have any chance), you're gambling that you will build a following and make more and more money.
Artists believe in themselves, broadly speaking, but no amount of faith will change the fact that there's less and less money in this business. Are you willing to make the sacrifices, when the chances of return on investment are truly, objectively so low, no matter how good an artist you are?
No one in life makes it without help. It may not always come in the form you need, but there is always people out there looking to help you on your journey. I think creating win win situations are always best. Being an artist is a lonely road, but it has been my experience that if you keep looking, you'll find like minded people who have a skill you may not have, and vice versa. If you can find ways to help each other, then you can get where you want to go. Don't let anyone, any blog, any person discourage your in your attainment of your dreams, and no one person has the answer. I've worked with booking agents with no gigs, and I've had investors with no collateral. So who's to say. I like Derek alot, but on this one, I would say to everyone keep pushing and help will come..but you gotta keep pushing...
I think its encouraging and discouraging at the same time, its great to be in control of your own work but we need each other to reach many of our goals - especially as artists.
Someone who buys your CD or t-shirt or even comes out to a show is investing in you. You need to make them want to and make the experience valuable so they continue to. A lot of artists have also successfully set up fan funded album releases.
I think its important to think positively and work to attract the success you want no matter what field its in. It always surprises me when goals of mine like playing a certain club come into being because of connections I made and people I helped who are returning favors so to speak.
If it frustrates you that no one will help you then be the person that helps others - set up a gig for another band, start a section in your newsletter about other bands, restaurants, etc to check out. Feel free to let them know you did that and maybe they will reciprocate somehow. As Derek said in his conferences blog its about personal connections.
I'M ACTUALLY GLAD NO ONE WANTS TO HELP YET.
NO ONE HEPING ME NOW, GIVES ME THE MOTIVATION TO LEARN THE THINGS I NEED TO KNOW REGARDING RUNNING MY OPERATION.
I'VE LEARNED SO MUCH FROM BEING TURNED DOWN. THAT I REALLY DON'T THINK I NEED A MAJOR.
MAYBE A MUSIC SUPERVISOR, AND THAT'S ALL!
I think that most people wont help you but there are a few that will. You are best off trying everything you can to succeed on your own but stoppinmg to help others does matter. Just ask Jimmy Stewart.
Sincerely,
Micah
sorry about the spelling errors im not the best typist
I guess for me it is all about the music though I did go through a period of feeling like I was not getting any help. When I was younger -1982- I had a partner and we did acoustic songwriting stuff. People really liked us and a friend set us up a meeting in London with Lionel Bart--producer of Oliver, and later we went to stay with Peter Sinfield...neither would put money up for us. That was a huge slap in the face for me. Some years later I formed a pop-rock band in Spain. We became very popular--so much so that we did some touring and opened up for the #1 band in Spain in 1987. After a few years our producer dropped us and the band split up--another huge slap in the face. Later in life I got back together with my acoustic partner and played all over the East Coast and actually had great opportunities and opened for Acoustic Alchemy and Aztec2Step who offered a meeting with us later that year. We split up--egos-- and that is when I really had to start finding myself. I first kept trying to join other musicians and formed a funk band but eventually realized that I could only rely on myself. For this I knew I had to become a much more proficient player. At 36 I started to study classical music--practiced 6 hours a day for 5 years. Eventually I realized that what I liked to play was non-standard tuning picking style--but my own--something that was comfortable for me. I bought a small home studio and started writing and recording.
I just feel lucky to be able to do what I am doing which is writing and recording my own stuff. I have been doing this since 1995 and since then have done everything myself as far as promotion with no money. I have done this through all of the main websites out there. Here and there I have spent a small amount of money to give myself extra boosts. I have joined online competitions, put up 3 cds at cdbaby and had all of my stuff inlcuded in digital distribution. There are some great independant artists sites where you can promote yourself through forums,contests,blogs etc. . .
My greatest moment came when I was noticed by Grammy winning producer and Wyndham Hill founder Will Ackerman. I had sent him a message on myspace to add him as a friend. He emailed me back telling me he really liked my music and the doors to his studio were open any time. In April 2008 I recorded my 3rd cd through literally million $ German Neumann Mikes. I signed my name on his "door" which includes the signatures of Michael Manring, George Winston, Andress Tuck...While there my car broke down and Will lent me his pickup truck. There I was driving around town in Will Ackerman's pickup truck. I am living a dream--the cd sounds unbelievable. I am now in the process of getting the cd mastered with his grammy award winning studio engineer.
This recording gave me such a huge boost I wrote a whole new CD--some of the best stuff I have ever written.
Money helps but it is not necesary to keep doing what is most important to us--that is music. 20 years ago I would never have dreamed I would be talking with Grammy award winners let alone a major icon. Keep doing music, keep fighting to get yourself heard but most importantly keep doing what you like and playing what comes from your heart, and enjoying it!!
Max
No matter what business you are in
it is up to YOU...to make it happen....it's called hard work and
working your way up the ladder....
No one is going to watch the store
for you while you only do the pleasant parts....relationship building is also a part...but it all takes a bit of time...just keep at it!!!
It totally encourage me. Simple as that. Not afraid of hard work.
Greetings from Brazil and thanks for you unbelievable help!
You have to look at music as a business. People in the business are looking for new acts/songwriters, etc. so they can make money. If they think you have what it takes for them to make some money then they will be happy to hook up with you. If you don't look or sound like you have that potential why would they take a chance. We as performers/songwriters can't take it personal. It's business, period.
Actually, someone IS going to help me. That person is extremely capable, dedicated, and has my best interests first and foremost in their mind. The person that will help me get to the next level is ME!!!
I found the article very informative. I am ready to begin the process again. I have written 4 books and I am about to start trying to find a literary agent. I will try to use your information above. I think I learned a lot from it. Thanks, Derek.
Even A.P. Carter never considered leaving his day job, so why should I?
I've always wanted to do the music I want, not what others wish me to.
At least that used to be my main principle. Then I've gone astray a few times playing music I didn't really like but later discovered I'd rather for instance driva a taxi for a living and do whatever music I myself happen to want to do and disregard the rest.
Considering how little I earned playing in those uncomfortable-for-me bands It's much better now.
Went on a tour with a choir last spring. Yes,yes, wonderful. BUT when asked what was the high point of that tour (we sang in some churches did some sightseeing etc in Vilnius where my paternal Granny grew up) I had to say it was this moment when two celloists and I (on self-built electric mandolin through a Pignose) played some songs I'd written - no audience at all, just the three of us in a hostel room.
No money? No millions? No screaming fans? So what!
Over the years...I have come to realize that no one will care about my music or project as much as I care. No one really even has the capacity to see it the same way or as being as important as I do. As a band leader trying to keep everyone else in the band motivated...when no one seems to be noticing or caring or coming to shows (for whatever excuse)...I have to say that it just all gets very old. Now that I am no longer 20...or 30...or even 40...it is extremely difficult to find time to even clear my mind enough to write music or the energy to keep trying. The world...and all of its noise and BS tend to choke out any inspiration to even try anymore to make music happen. What is so painfully obvious...however...is the fact that I CANNOT HELP IT. IT IS IN ME AND NOT GOING AWAY. It has no conscience. It has no compassion. It will NEVER EVER stop....EVER! Oh wait...that's terminator...ha-ha. But that's a picture of how we must be toward the business side. It seems that (2nd to funding) finding the 'un-distracted' time is the greatest challenge.
Hey, Im a huge fan of this blog. Im a rapper, coming from africa to montreal. In only a year and thanx to your advices ive been able to set my own website find gigs to play and sell my music online. And im successfull.
To answer your question ill say that kind of question really encourages me. Because I feel nobody else is gonna take a blame for me not being successful.
Thanx so much
Can be disheartening to think like that. For me it comes in waves. Some days I feel so strong and independent then other days I let out a cry for help. As of today all openings have slammed in my face. Tomorrow I'll be in the studio, meaning I'll find new strength in making music. Not everybody can do this and "christ you know it ain't easy"
My talent is my pension or I'm fucked. Love and music. Al.
I'm fifty. I've kinda already gotten my nose rubbed in that bit of reality for, oh, the past 30 years.
SO, yes it does encourage me, in the sense that, I have been doing this for thirty years, growing as a musician, and lyricist, and performer, and have always done so in the face of many concerned looks, and sympathetic sighs.
Upon my educational efforts with thousands of songwriters/artists/bands through the Songwriters Guild of America, It's still surprising to me that in 2008 musicians are still waiting for a helping hand. It's no secret that most musicians are really lazy about learning the music business.
It's boring to learn all the aspects, but its a necessary skill set if you want a real future.
With places like CD Baby, Tunecore, IODA, The Orchard, Ricall etc, there's plenty of DIY opportunities to create attention for your music. Just do a little work.
Its not hard to get in the door of the music industry. The hard part is making the deal. If you can't document your success before you seek a deal, you're pretty much worthless to any investor.
The real effort to be made is in education. Learn to DIY and make money from your music. Even the most meager earnings look better than zero when you're ready to approach a record company or agent.
Reminds me of the old saying, "You get out of it what you put into it".
Yay! I'm happy about this statement. Help implies bailing you out - like your picture of the teetering boat. But no "backer" is going to back you, bail you out, etc., unless you are putting money in their pocket. It's purely business for them and that's not "help" at all, that is, well, business. And art is art, not business. So do art for art's sake. If you want to get into the business side of it, become a businessman/woman -- they're the ones who "make it." I'm happy just doing my music and not putting all that pressure on myself, or worse yet, on my music to "make it." Van Gogh didn't paint for money; Mozart and all of the true artists in their day rarely made a dime. That's why they could create such masterpieces - they were neither selling music nor their souls (i.e. selling out). They created because it was in them to create. If you love creating, then you will do it whether or not you ever make a dime doing it.
Mixed. Although I do believe it's true. One the one hand it motivates me. I have always been an independent type who likes doing things for myself. On the Other hand, I haven't taken advantage of opportunities as much as I could. Nothings going to help as much as first being good at what you do, and two, finding your nitch. Which have been holding me back. I think I'm almost where I wanna be to start but not quite.
It is true that in order to suceed one has to make it happen himself. Take the necessary actions for success and just keep on going no matter how many times you hear that you can't make it.
Tons of people are going to help me. They already have. I'm going to help tons of people. I already have. Howbout that Derek Sivers. Helpful sonofabitch, ain't he? I can't help helping myself. I'm gonna help myself to another helping!
Happy Holidays!
Thank you Derek. For me I´m just more than happy to hear that nobody will come and help me and it all up to me!!! I honestly can make more than 10,000 euros/month with gigs or selling my records online but never any producer can believe in me and work with me.I think,having a investor for your music is not only by talent but has a lot to do with being lucky person ! Nobody will come and help gives me more power to work hard and get it done. I self produced my music since the beginning of my career and today still wish someone comes to help but days passed and still the same. Now the music market changing to the worst and the general financial World finally !!! But not afraid ! We´ll work it out till the end.
God bless you man....
Aaron Lordson.
Im an up and coming musician here in Vancouver BC and one of the ways I look at it is like this:
People who want degrees go to university and invest thier time and money making large sacrifices so they can be successful at what they love to do.
For me, thats what making my album is about. Its my first one, therefore a 'tuition' is what I am paying, because Im learning, investing, and growing. I will only have success if I work hard and apply myself. People don't often get asked to play gigs out of the blue. Its about patience, hard work, and putting yourself out there once your ready.
Not everyone is going to like my music/style. Not everyone is going to like me or what I stand for as a person or how I present myself. All I can do is my best and remain authentic to myself, my work, and ensure that I love doing it, which I do. I think it's also about being able to take the punches with grace. Im very lucky to have a few awesome mentors in my life for not just music, but in living. I'll never be too old for guidance and learning, and I will always be strong enough to get myself out there. Patting me on the back just tells me Ive done a good job. It's got to be me who chooses to keep going though.And I just love making music. If one person can identify with something Ive written and am singing about, and Ive enjoyed telling my story, then that is what I call success.
Waiting for or depending on others has never been part of my MO. Goals are key! When I set my goals and live "as if" those goals are accomplished, then the resources I need come into my life on cue.
Only the Strong Survive its changed so much in the last 10 years! Just stay strong and love yourself and God the rest will happen if not this life the next! The soul lives on when the body fades away!
I always harken back to the fact that nobody asked me to do music. It's a 'job' I chose (chose me?); It's then my job to make it well enough that somebody will appreciate it; and then it's my job to get enough people to appreciate it enough to pay for it.
I simply use myself as a guage for what it takes to buy music, and I am a pretty hard sell. So.. that's my standard and by the way, my 'job' to reach it.
Help will then come to those doing their job. They will be hard to ignore!
-AB
www.arlonbennett.com
Hi Derek,
My band is working! We are averaging 160 to 200 shows
a year. 15 to 20 shows a month
or 3 to 5 shows a week all averaging $500 each (some more some less).
I email EPK's out when I can
but I need someone to market my product. Does anyone complain
about not having the time to go to the next level?
Still no booking agent or distributor has been interested.
I guess we should be happy, but what hard working band is every
completely happy.
Alan
Hi Derek,
Funny that you ask... I released a self produce indie CD "Back In The Mood" (with CDBaby) in March. I was already inspired by the fact that I would have to do everything. I performed all instruments and vocals. Recorded, engineered, mixed and now promoted the CD myself. (I left the mastering to Discmakers).
The point got re-inforced yesterday when my wife offered to order Holiday cards for my recording studio (Pristine Studios) to send out. When I got the cards they said "Prestine Studios". My studio has been in business for 2 years and she doesn't know the correct name.
I acknowled how much I appreciated her help and sent them anyway. (One less thing I had to do...)
My point is... If you get help, it's great... But don't let the lack of it stop you...
Happy Holidays,
Dennis
The way to success is to create your own opportunity in the right place at the right time, with a good attitude. A healthy and optimistic outlook will give you opportunity to make the "bad news" your good news.
The best way to get out of your self-centered funk is to help someone else. The real challenge is to take that nice thought and put it into action. This post could offer so many spin-off conversations. I think I'll post one myself.
Make art! Make art! The moment one divests himself of the art of music is the moment that the musician becomes a business man. We live in a post-industrial age, man, and that includes the music industry. Becoming a pop star these days looks to be about as much fun as being a monkey in a cage. Ian McKay had it right all along. Do It Yourself. There's no substitute.
"If a work is good, it's just a question of time before it sees the light"
Woody Allen
It's good advice, except for one thing. Plenty of people WANT to help! Look at this article? How much did the people reading it pay you to write it? Nothing. Why did it get written? Because you wanted to help. And the advice, "Look first to yourself and your strengths" is good.
The questions are, "What kind of help do you need?" and "How can I find people who want to help me with what I actually need?"
We would all like $500,000 dollars. But there is no magic person or place that is just giving out money to musicians. We need to be BANKERS for that kind of treatment!
But do you really NEED $500,000? What can you return for that investment?
Find out what you REALLY need. Inventory what you can do yourself. And inventory what you can reasonably ask for help with.
I saw Julia Nunes say that she needed a design for concert T-shirt sales on a YouTube video. In less than a week she had more than 150 submissions from fans of designs! Some of them were very professional in quality. But here's the deal, she created a deeper BOND with her audience. She showed that their input in important. She made even the people who didn't submit ideas feel important just being her fans! That's a skill.
For 20 years I've operated under the reality that not only will very little help come from disparate sources. The opposite is actually at work to some degree--people will try and hurt you, slow you, prevent you, obfuscate you, in your journey toward success. And success needs to be redefined anyway. Being a rock star with groupies and exorbitant cash and airplanes and drugs is certainly a rarified kind of worldly existence, but for more than 99.9% of us it is NOT success.
Every time I've longed for an intermediary to make it easier--whether they're finance people, professional people, agents (and the monetary level before an agent will talk to you is $100,00 a year in bookings, not $5000 a month), managers,whomever--it's improved aspects of my journey but muddled it as much as it has helped.
It's GOT to be on your own. It's the only way to do this thing and have it make sense and money and most importantly, good music. Make the music UNDENIABLE. MAke the live show UNDENIABLE. In your own way, on your own terms. Not as compared wo whomever or whatever flavor of the day. According to your own sense of what's great; your own sense of what's expressive; your own sense of what's human and enduring.
Approach everything with enthusiasm and vitality, no matter your age, not matter your level of "success" in this thing. My grandfather had ti right when he just used to simply say "Do the most important thing first."
Ain't nobody gonna give you NUTHIN!!
Hi Derek, as usual, thanks for bringing up such a good topic.
I think the question isn't that cut and dried...the harder it is, yes, it's frustrating, but if I want it, I just want to move toward it.
I think that one person, dedicated to something, can make a big difference, and often, there are people around you who want to or might be willing to help--even if you don't have a huge budget. I think sometimes the hardest part is asking for help from people who may want to help you.
That being said, it's both daunting and exciting that there don't seem to be set definitions for the music biz anymore. On the one hand, it's very liberating--you're not just trying to get into the big machine and it means the artist has so much control over their destiny. But on the other hand, there are so many options and ways to invest your time and energy, let alone your $$...it's awfully hard to be far-thinking and you get pulled in so many directions, and when you're in the middle of it, it's also hard not to second-guess or to know if what you're doing is the "right" thing. It's trying to balance foresight with risk, I think, and being thankful for any successes, no matter how minor they may seem. Even composing an email takes time and energy and I think many get frustrated by thinking they're not doing enough. Every step forward, no matter how inconsequential it may seem, is something. Eyes on the prize, right?
Lastly, everyone who's written here seems to be chugging along, and that says something...
It was 30 yeras ago, I created,
Nobody, Inc (had 10K shares in CA) and why all titles with "nobody" are intriguing.
Nobody was an artist co-op to help artist/musicians and whe internet became itself w/ the original question, "who will make me famous" while I play all day?"..., does anyone love me?..., is there anybody out there? hee hee tnt I give
PS...I should say that a tremendous amount of altruism, advice, love, real help and consideration come from other musicians and artists involved in the same struggle you are. The big-timers will not deign to help. SO in a sense ya gotta give your life away--give your music to the world; give your love to the world; give your words to the world; give your time to those who need it; give your life away. And in comes back in ways you can't imagine or describe.
love out
stewart
Encouraging, very encouraging to leaders and discouraging, very discouraging to well, that other 95% of people. I've done almost 8 albums with almost no help from anyone. When people ask how i make music so easily and so quickly, I say isolate yourself and be a loser for 7 years. I haven't done many drugs, haven't listened to too much negativity and just kinda listened to my inner strength. Whether it's music or anything. You can't control other people. You can't control day and night. Why waste your time with things you can't control. You CAN control yourself.
100%. I am on what Derek have mentioned about in this article.
We can ask nicely how to about to go on the journey as an artist. Effort? Is ours. To be on the line of work with others to follow up we must do the all the work. If any of us have a fait in what we are doing then we will do it one step at a time with out questioning But follow up to share with rest of the world to share what we can for this loving life that we live in.
See for yourself is the key to follow up. One who really has to do the work is the person. No one in this world is going to give you or give me what you or I want. We have to honestly work to harvest. Even the God will say 'meet me half way'.Basically, We have to do it all. Not at once but slowly, one day at a time. It will take many many years if you are good and kind and sincere with people.
Then you will meet friends here and there to help us motivated. Motivation is also tricky words. We often think that sweet talk is motivational.
No, No. True motivation is comeing from honesty from the friends.It can be bitter at the moment.
Remember the song "Love hurts"?
Yes true motivational words can hurt some-one if they did not ready for it.
Whichmeans that you are not ready at all and you are not even realistic about life.
Hero, Hmmmmmmmm
You can be your own hero first to be others. Only if the person is truly good.
True motivation is to know the true. First bubble has to die.
Desire to be loved by others.
Desire to get to some-where without walking.
Desire of my own success.
etc...
You and I have to earn it.No question about it.
We can only thankful for friends who can help and giving their time to give us information about how. We can only appreciate the person's concern enough to answer back.
We can only follow up.
Very simple. That's all it takes. If help comes to us along the way? We can only appreciate but that's not something we should focus on like Derek said.
Success? also trick words.
What is success? making a lot of money to say I did it to show up?
Good luck.
If we ever get there to be success to be entertainer it will only be harsh moment.
We are only it as an entertainer to spread the good news through good music and art from our humble heart. You are not truthful?
Start again. With sincerely of your life that you have. Start again with thankfulness of this life.
Sincerely emily eunjue hayes
Like some of the other comments I have controlled 99% of my own music myself. I used to get frustrated when nobody would give sustained help so I feel encouraged to know help won't appear unless I make it happen first!
Difficult challenges are what qualify recording/performing musicians for the next level. It's the difficulties of 'boot camp' early on that make it worthwhile later. For every talented musician out there, there's someone with a fifth of the talent and twice the fearless drive. And that's the guy who makes it in the end.
What about 'recording artists'?; in other words, what if you unfortunately don't have any musicians working with you, and in turn no opportunity to be performing at all? (beyond only one song, needless to say, people's patience for acapela is limited < and beyond this, personally speaking I'm not into what would essentially end up being just karoke if one were to accompany one's self electronically).
In short, I'm doing it ALL by myself; i.e., composing, singing, recording, mixing, producing my own product/cd's, etc.
There must be a place for serious artists to create/exercise their abilities via recording, yet regrettably it seems no one takes this seriously. It is the same as making independent motion pictures, painting, writing, etc. (who wants to watch people paint/write, etc.?), yet in the realm of music, it's as if it somehow isn't "legitmate" valid work!?!?
This is probably the most discouraging aspect of it all as far as I'm concerned...fact is, I'm not personally concerned about (or seeking) 'fame/fortune', yet merely seeking whatever venue(s)that might exist 'out there' (and there must be!) to help my work be more of a reality.
My work (pop/rock genre) is audio painting, and this is indeed as valid a 'form' as much as any live band performing (cause let's face it, in the end it's the audio recordings that everyone listens to, that which remains 'on the record').
The best answer is to help yourself first and then you look fi help , seen.
BLESSINGS fi you Derek.
CARLOS DE NICARAGUA
RASTAFARI
Derek, as always you speak the truth. When I couldn't find help to release my own band's CD I started my own label, Diminished Fifth Records, which has grown extensively in the first two and half years with seven releases to date. When I was frustrated that I could get coverage for my artists in National and International publications but none in Canada's East Coast (due to their being no 'Heavy' Music magazines, Online Blogs etc...) I started my own Free, Online Magazine, Horns High. And Most recently I've started my own Publicity Company Hogan Media Relations. When people ask me how I've built the network of Diminished Fifth companies I just tell I work towards what I want... If no one else comes on board to help I do it myself.
P.S. Come back to the East Coast Music Awards again! It was a real treat to hear you speak when you were in Halifax in 2006.
As always Derek, thanks for stepping outside the box for a while. Actually someone usually does show up to HELP, but I have found far too many who expect that others will do everything else. People really do want to help people who are not helpless. This isn't profound, just true. If music is your passion, you have to be willing to go the distance long before you ask anyone else to do all the doing.
Self awareness is the payoff when you do more of the business yourself. Also, you end up trusting more of the right people for partnership when the time comes if you own your own efforts.
Lauren
Maybe this time is help for us all...one thing we all know is "turn, turn, turn.."/all things are temporary/"all things must pass", etc. ...Remember the blues players..their "story" brought up the feelings and the music.. Now we can hold out in our studios and build new pieces that will be far different than what they would have been if the market was easier. This can be a fun time if we let it be. Thanks Derek..for bringing a great communication place to us again!
I like creating music/ video/ projects etc on my own.. and I feel real pride in my accomplishments.. I belief in myself and in my work.. with or without help I will show it to the world anyhow.. I love the internet - youtube myspace online distributing.. cdbaby of course..etc ... even though it takes a lot of time but I am my own woman.. and that is very empowering .. however it would be nice and ideal if there was this big major publisher who wants to invest in my little business and I would have all my freedom .. my greatest love is still music and not pr and marketing... but hey .. just dreaming.. (-:
grtz anne
LOL!
Derek, "Nobody's gonna help you" is exactly how I got involved. When I started out I just wanted to be a songwriter and nobody was interested in my songs. Then I took up the harmonica and the guitar so that I could them myself. The guitar was a challenge and I struggled miserably with the basic chords. My first two being "G" and "D." Then I discovered the "C" chord and struggled some more. I literary destroyed two guitars because "they" wouldn't play right! Mind you now, I still wasn't serious about doing music.
The boy scouts and summer campers tolerated my rough style and even encouraged me. When I joined the Navy things began to move forward. At first I ran into the usual teachers who would take my guitar and play a lot of outrageous chords and riffs that were beyond my comprehension and then give it back to me with a grin and say, "See, it's really easy."
Then I met Nicky while we were doing Mess Deck duty. We both loved the old time country and he took the time to sit down with me each day during breaks in our shifts and coach me. He ran me through the basics, gave me songs to practice, and we did them together. He also gave me a sore knee-cap. Whenever I missed a simple lick or chord he'd kick me in the shins. I finally learned to play rhythm guitar. We were drinking buddies too. He caused more bar fights in the Philippines and Japan than my jaw cares to remember. He'd get plastered and then go over to a table of plastered Marines and point to our table and tell them that his buddies could whip any jarhead in the house! Oh, the good old days.
When i finally decided tog et serious about making music, I again learned that it could take forever or never for someone to pitch in a help. So I started doing everything myself. Singing, writing, promoting, publishing, producing, and eventually started my own music magazine. Once people saw me taking charge of my music I began to get some offers. Unfortunatley I had already been mentored by some old timers who cautioned me about what and what not to expect. So it came to pass that most of the pro-offered help was merely offering me what I had already been doing. And others were seeking to ride the coattails in the hopes that I'd "make it big." My answer to them was always a polite no thanks. One of the most important things I also learned was to always be polite to whomever you meet. You might not like them or their music, but they may prove to be an asset in some way in the future. And this has happened to me.
I also studied. asked questions, and read books on how the major labels operated and then tailored some of those practices to operational ability. I also organized by cataloging my song catalog, demo tapes, published songs,sales, and mail outs. I can tell you virtually everyone I mailed my music to since 1981.This alone is invaluable.
Consider this. If you grew up in a household that loved to take photos, I'll bet the odds are that the negatives to them are stuffed in a kitchen [most common place] drawer. I became a freelance photograper in 1972 and was taught right off to catalog each roll of negatives. God, am I so grateful that I did. I have over 2000 numbered and dated envelopes that tell me exactly where my pictures are.
Wishing and dreaming is nice, but they can't come true if you don't do something about it. So get out there and do it yourself. I'm not rich and famous [well maybe a little famous] but I'm satisfied that I actually accomplished what I set out to do.
Go for it!
Totally agree with what you said.
I dont think there has ever been a better time for the independent musician and I think creating an online buzz to get the offline investment is an excellent way to start.
Tell me something that I don't already know! If you don't believe in yourself, don't expect anyone else to believe in you. How invigorating! Now it is up to me to show people why they should believe in me. What I am willing to do to get my music heard, not by everyone, but by the "market niche" that I am trying to connect with? When backed into a corner with no outside help, it forces you to be inovative,and tenacious just to survive. Remember it is a "jungle" out there, not for the faint at heart...
I was on my own from day one and taking myself down the park when I was 3. I have autonomy in my blood and creativity etched into my bones and life sculpted entrepreneurial bent into me. So you're not alone DS, I'm there on the same planet.
It motivates me 10 times fold!
If they cant help me, maybe I can help them and in return learning from them.
MOTIVATION IS EVERYWHERE. Even with the "negative" things.
ROCK ON!
Oscar
I always wanted to be the "ROCKSTAR". Have a big house, cars, touring, etc.. Well as I got older things changed. I got married had kids did the get a job to provide kind of thing. The one thing that never left me was the desire to make music. I help myself by being realistic and knowing that getting into this business on the "ROCKSTAR" scale is a long shot, so I am happy with selling a few songs here and there on CD Baby or Amazon. Believe in yourself and your music and the rest will come.
In my career, I've been the most depressed when I've waited around for someone to do something for me. A) Because they never do, and I end up feeling disappointed, and B) because I leave myself in a powerless situation and that doesn't feel good, and C) because my career stays at a stalemate.
Unfortunately, it's taken a few times of my hitting that place of disappointment to realize that I need to take matters (and keep them!) into my own hands. It's empowering, productive, and it works!
Thanks for the reinforcement and encouragement, Derek.
-shannon curtis
When I am unable to receive help from others, it motivates me to get it done. Also, even though there are people who believe in what I'm doing, the people that don't believe in what I'm doing fuel me. It is kind of like I enjoy someone telling me I cannot do something or someone making something difficult on me; it's like a challenge, and I love challenges :D
In my opinion, it's up to you: Do you really believe in yourself (your music, your message, you send through your music)? I am naturally fighter: no one helps me - I become even stronger.
You are not alone, actually, Thanks for the reminder!!!
I pretty much came to the same conclusion after a lot some experiences and observation.
The people that can help you go to a higher level are "waiting" and "watching" what will YOU do? what else will YOU achieve? in order to jump in the right moment.
"But remember, the brick walls are there for a reason. The brick walls are not there to keep us out.The brick walls are there to stop the people who don't want it badly enough. They're there to stop the other people" Great words from Randy Pausch
Right on Derek.
Wisdom and years will teach you that nobody cares about you or your problems more than you do.
You ARE in control of your own destiny. Stay humble, find happiness in being humble. And the only gifthorse you will truly find will be yourself. And with that attitude, you may actually find a surprise at somepoint in your life thats positive:>)
First off. A band gigging at 5 grand a month is already a success. That's a position where your the one who should be helping others. Not the reverse.
I'm used to not getting that kind of help. Frankly I no longer expect it. There are millions of artists looking for everything from agents to investors. Crabs striving for the barrel top that can only support a few.
Instead I focus on creating or achieving those goals on my own merit. I've played most positions in the industry simply out of necessity. Can't find an agent? I became one. Needed web designers? I learned how to do it myself. Need investors? I wrote my own marketing and business proposals. Want radio play or exposure? I built my own network superstructure and included media outlets I helped develop. After years of this stubborn determination I became the "go to' guy. Right now I can sit back and look at a genre I helped create. There are trends and artist success stories I have had a major role in bringing into fruition. They would never have happened had I not been so bullish and single minded.
Success doesn't happen overnight. Normally it takes a team of people working behind the scenes to make all these things happen. The habit I've learned in the past 2 decades is to not depend on any help at all. If it comes great. if it doesn't I'll do it myself. If I don't know how I'll learn. Using that philosophy I've become more confident in my abilities and much more well rounded as an artist and businessman. I may never be the best at anything. But I can do damn near everything on my own. That in itself is an inspiration.
"Nobody’s going to help you. Does that encourage you or discourage you?"
The statement is simple and true. Count on NO HELP. Then use that as the reason to learn as much as possible in order to achieve what you may call success..
Max
www.MaximumImpactPoetry.com
Interesting. I feel both discouraged and encouraged.
Discouraged because it all comes back to me.
And encouraged because it all comes back to me.
It's in my lap, in my hands, in my ability to make it work or not.
Me, I like a challenge - so this sits pretty well with me, as I've been steering my own music career for years now, and it's taking a different self-directed path right now (film composer).
And I HAVE found others that help, so I've been building a team too. One's team is important. One can create a team that encourages.
Self-motivation. Self-created. Love it.
i do not have a witty enlightened answer.
but this is my take...i feel an awareness that my music isn't contributing to the world in the way that will solve the world's greater issues and concerns such as hunger or disease. even still, music is the thing that matters most to me and whether anyone else does, i care about it.
i would also like to acknowledge that without the fortunate opportunities i have had along my journey (which were not solely because of my hard work) in the form of people, places, situations, and things working in and on my behalf...i would not have been able to continue.
from what i have observed, successful people have had help along the way to where they sit today. this observation is not limited to the music discussion. i wonder is there a single case of a success story in any arena that is a result of an individual "willing themself to power"?
I still remember the first time someone told me no one was going to help me. Actually, what they said was more encouraging. They said "Build it like no one is going to help you, because their not. Then when it starts working you will be surprised how many people can find the time to "help" you." They were absolutely right. It was frustrating at first but once I owned the reality of it there was a surprising side effect... creativity. Once I stopped waiting on people to do things for me it forced me to be creative and I actually started to get things done myself. What I found was that since I hadn't been an insider I didn't understand all the "rules". It turns out that was an advantage, I ended up being a little unorthodox and it's working. In the first 6 months I sold 1500 records, played 40+ gigs and quite may day job selling insurance. After my first full year I had my first employee in America and three VA's in India. On the other hand, I have spoken with countless other musicians about my path to independence and they just feel overwhelmed and fearful. I have even had them tell me they would just rather wait to be discovered. I've learned most people underestimate themselves and overestimate the difficulty of the task.
It discourages me... but I keep going.
No question it's discouraging.
I do think the kind of help this person was asking for is unrealistic. And I do believe you need to do EVERYTHING you can yourself to make things happen. In fact, not getting help from the very people I expected it from was the thing that motivated me to do it myself and finally get some results.
Having said that, it's a terrible world to live in when you know that no matter how hard you work, how prepared you are, and how specific you are about the help you need, there's still slim to no chance that any portion of that help will be available.
Successful artists with money to burn need to step up. While it's admirable to donate time & money to worthy causes, this business needs patrons and mentors, and not just people looking for a quick buck up front.
Let me repeat that last line, because it's that important:
This business needs patrons and mentors.
This business needs patrons and mentors.
In my experience the music industry is the same as any other business, people will help you if you pay them
What musicians always seem to forget is that the old recording contract standard fayre from a major record company had floors and ceilings all designed to keep or claw back the artists earnings. In most cases artists think they are getting help but in reality they are not they are getting services and a loan. On that basis the artists can determine their own business model now withour having to payback Sony 100K in five years time....So to answer your question nobodys going to help you, but it shouldnt discourage you if you have any sense
It's a matter of belief in what you do and an underlying sense that there are people out there who will help you. It's just a matter of persistent searching for the right people and not just throwing your product into the wind and hoping it lands in the right lap. We are all intrinsically connected at the core level and the seeking of the connections is the trusty fun part!
Necessity is the mother of invention. No one helps you - makes you figure it out on your own. Sink or swim.
I have never had much help. and it has NEVER stopped me. Now.. company/support-less i have to be creative in my business dealings. i have built a network of amazing artists and we all help each other out. there are no excuses anymore. no room to be lazy. you either get it done or you don't. i think its weeded those in it just for the greed from the artists in it for heart and soul reasons. at this point if you choose to attempt this then you must really really love it. because its a steep uphill climb. but i LOVE THE CHALLENGE.
no one EVER gave me anything ive done. i was engineering a major label record at 21 years old because of an intense drive. discouragement can be very tiring. it can weigh you down and depress you. but, none of the greatest artists i love were just handed things. they created the greatest thing they had with what they had. like my friend natalia fabia says.. it doesn't matter if its cheap paint and cheap canvas or amazing expensive brushes she just has to make a brilliant painting anyway. no excuses.
Over the past 20 years, I have been an artist, an agent, a manager, an engineer, a producer, etc., etc.
I have produced artists in Canada, the USA, England, Japan and Hong Kong and they have all asked me those same questions.
My answer is always the same - "The Only One You Can Count On Is You." In fact, I have a 3 foot by 3 foot sign on my studio wall that says just that.
Then I tell them “I will be happy to teach you what to do but I will not do it for you”.
For every question an artist has, there is a book, an article and/or a video available. All those closely guarded secrets of he past are at your fingertips. The “How To” is everywhere – on the internet, at the library, and in bookstores - and for the most part it's FREE.
I think this is the best time in history to be a recording artist. With a few simple tools we can do almost everything ourselves. We can accomplish more in one day than artists could in a month just a few years ago (and for little or no cost by comparison).
So, my advice is “Do It Yourself.”
David Strattford, Producer at TRAX
just skimmed through some of the other comments...quite a variety.
overall, I agree...specifically, I'm gonna do it regardless!...and this literally correlates to my 'painting/writing' analogy... just because one isn't famous or receiving significant financial rewards doesn't mean one is not 'authorized' to do it.
One has to simply be very passionate about it, or there's no reason to be doing it all.
Yet needless to say, wouldn't it be great to receive more credit/acknowledgment from one's work (and yeah, of course even some financial compensation/reward).
But again, regardless, you have to be deeply passionate, it has to be what drives you, what keeps you alive & going no matter what.
Different but related...and granted, most of us presumably know this already, but the most regrettable aspect of the 'music industry' (most specifically in this culture anyway) is the obvious corporate influence, as it's virtually impossible to penetrate this institutionalized structure as it exists.
Consider the 'seed' quality of the emerging 'newer' music/sounds of the mid-60's; it was a distinct cutting through/penetrating the rather vapid culture reproduction at the time.
In truth, there really hasn't been any significant 'shift' like this since that time (just imagine for a moment that if in the mid/late -60's we were primarily hearing music on the radio only from the 1920's/30's, well essentially this is where we're at now today, it's basically that very same thing now...today we're essentially hearing culture reproductions/trillion variations of the very music which became institutionalized in the mid/late 60's !).
Point being, there really must be some signficant break-out of this/away from this, with some dramatic shift into something genuinely new...this 'merry-go-round' vicious circle we seemed to trapped in only breeds what is essentially a massive amount of pollution on the landscape/our psyches (and at the risk of getting too far out there, in my personal opinion that vicious circle culture reproduction is indeed a VERY fertile place for ultimately breeding fascism < that 'lock-step', same old/same old, round & round, in the end, it's fundamentalism < and sorry if this bums anyone out, but regrettably, I'm afraid it's just the facts).
Ultimately, we as independent music artists (any artists!) have to be the ones to break outa this vicious circle and bend it into an upward spiral, it ain't gonna happen via any corporate acknowledgment/encouragement...(and yeah, predictably that'll happen eventually when the 'new' music is ready to be co-opted).
I went through a phase when I would have found this answer maddening. But the fact is it's true! So why bother getting frustrated over what is. That frustration becomes a fairly useless distraction.
These days I'm thinking more along the lines of, how can I ask anything of anyone else that I'm not willing to do myself? It's really humbling to be out in the world doing this thing all alone, knowing that you have something special to share and knowing that it is a totally uphill battle getting anyone to care about it... but there are great moments too and the journey is so rich...
Thank goodness for the journey. That's all I can say.
Music has absolutely nothing to do with money. It is spiritual. I have written over a thousand songs. I know what I'm talking about. I've had 4 Record deals (Creation, Ministry Of Sound, Universal and, erm, Gut) played Glastonbury, Reading, been on TV with Alan McGee. I've Been played on Radio 1 at 10.30 in the morning and thought that I was going to be famous. I've been critically acclaimed twice for the first two My Computer records which are destined to be cult classics in 20 years time and thought that I was going to be famous. I'm not famous and I don't want to be. I never did (ok, maybe when I was 16) I love writing songs and I love recording them and I absolutely love performong them. Everything else about music (Businessmen, drink my wine...Bob Dylan circa the 60's)sucks shit.
Life's like this. You need to eat and you need to sleep. If you can't do either you are in trouble. If you can do something good for society, then all the better.
Love is a business.
Fun is a business.
Music...is a business, a rotten one. Always has been, always will be.
Musicians are victims of their own ego's. If you really love music and write it because you want to make other people happy...write it, record it, release it independantly and play it live wherever you can whenever you can. If 1 person shows up and likes it. Job done.
Sorry if this upsets you.
Get a life!
you are of course exactly right - there are no wizards left in the music business. Dont look - you might look forever to find one. The truth is those days are long gone and this is now... If you can do everything yourself and you dont need those other boys to get there then youre on to something if you can do that. But most musicians are not that wealthy... so its a question of working with what you have got. But make no mistake.. dont wait to make a great living in the sordid bent sickening music business with fools who review your music and dont have a clue... (they just cost you sales).
Even with great material, the music you make is a pinprick in an industry with a MASSIVE tail and a pinprick at the front of the very few who do make money. It is extremely likely you will remain in that tail forever. Get over it - realise that your chances are very bleak.
Now enjoy what you do - you only pass through here once and frankly life is too short to bother whether you will be in the few at the top... ENJOY your music... and ENJOY making it... and hey I dont have anything to sell you... its just plain obvious if you can understand the enormity of the task.
I'm a 56 year old singer/occasional song writer, and only got serious about songwriting a year and a half ago, nobody helped me. I recorded my first Country album last year in my bedroom. I have that and a Christmas album on sale in a few record shops this Christmas. It's been a rough road up to now, rejected, ignored, but It only makes me try harder. Why?, because i believe in the talent i have. Right now some of my emails(and I've sent a lot)are being answered. People are beginning to realize I can write songs. There's no contract on the horizon, hell! I'm not even giggin right now. But Its moving 100% up on last year, and thats something. Sure I've got sick and fed up with the rejection. But I have my dream, and I want to realize it. Follow yours, and dont let anyone put you off. God bless Michael
Whether somebody offers to help (nobody ever has) or not, I honestly don't care. MY will be done, not THEIR will be done. I will create regardless, and I will make it available regardless. My motivation does not come from the promise of help or its lack thereof.
Music is full of challenges and at times Road Blocks that tend to get frusterating,the most important thing is not to let it take the Fun out of the Music,Always keep learning and live for the challenge.
~R STAVELY COUNTRY~
I find it "encouraging" in terms of feeling a sense of relief, because it's one less thing to worry about. Does that make sense to you? The idea that nobody is going to help me means that, whatever gains I make are a result of my own work, and so I've truly earned those gains. And conversely if things aren't working I know who is responsible, as well.
It *also* means that if someone actually *does* step in to help, that help is truly valued and appreciated and I've let those people know how much it means to me for the things they've done.
So. Short answer: Encouraged.
It was hard to admit it from the begining, but after I convinced myself-started believing even more making others to believe too.
Bassicaly you started by yourself & then people came along. They did it just for their own fun: looking for places for friends to gig, sale the tickets on a door, recomend the band to everybody to book or to go to see it. The truth is very simple: booking agent wants a little cut from your payment for the gigs you already play, the lable wants to sell your records you already sell by yourself...So, find yourself gigs & sell your records & just believe in & enjoy of what you do. At the end it's not about money at all!
Hello Derek,
It's called believing in yourself. Until you do, no one else will.
Hi Dave here, don't wear out my name baby. Well here's my take, listen up and learn something. The world owes me a Goddamn living 'cos my music is THE BEST. You hear that! No I don't want to hear that I've got to do it all for myself!!! When your music is this good then the rest of the world needs to wake the fvck up and do all the sh1tty stuff to clear the way for me to do what I do best. i.e. make fvcking brilliant music. Where are you?????????
The realization that it's all up to me came years ago. In other countries (in Europe, Asia) talented artists are subsidized and talented kids are placed in special schools. This is the USA.
How do I make a living at this? By being really good; by being versatile; by sharing my knowledge; by reaching out to help other musicians.
Q: How do you get really good?
A: By honing your craft and PRACTICING.
Q: How do you get to be versatile?
A: By using every single skill you've got.
Q: How does one share one's knowledge?
A: By offering that knowledge to those who seek it. (I get paid a lot for this. I also do it for free.)
Q: How does one help other musicians?
A: By taking the time/making the effort to pass on what you've learned.
I value my independence about as much as my health.
I used to pray other people would step in and prop my music career up, but now I'm actually grateful they didn't.
I adore the creative challenges every day of making my music grow.
thanks Derek,
Elizabeth
Nobody's going to help you, in the sense that nobody is going to do something for you that isn't also going to benefit them. (Except maybe Mother Teresa, if you're diseased and starving.) But the real question should be "What have I got that's going to benefit somebody else, and who is that somebody esle?". Finding the answer(s) to that question is how you find allies. If you have allies, you don't need charity.
Yes it's discouraging because you expect more to happen. People say I can help or I know someone that can help and it never materializes.You feel you have a good product but you can't get it out to the world.
Marvin
I've spent a lifetime of listening to "No, you can't." Yet among those people I seem to be the last one standing.
Ok..ok..ok..interesting answers to the original post, but so much truth it HAS to hurt! I am a singer/songwriter and have made MUCH more money working IN studios as a session musician, jingle writer, and producer. It is still and always has been about talent. If you got it, people will hear it, like it, and either book you, buy you, or even support you. Labels make money by selling good music. Whether in the form of a digital download, a ringtone, or a full CD, they are not in the "music business" to loose money. With that in mind, they are ALWAYS looking for new material and talent. The thing is, talent, the look, and the product is NOT an every day thing. Most people cutting indie and working the pavement may have one or two pieces to the puzzle, but maybe not the whole picture. When I lived in Nashville, I had an exectuve from a major label tell me, 1) you don't have the looks, 2) you are a little old for target market, 3) the production was weak on my demo. I could only control ONE factor out of that, but it wasn't enough. I guess I am saying, YES...stay positive, but find some total strangers in your neighborhood and ASK them their opinion of your music, your look, your band...if ALL of them aren't head over heels for you, why would a label, agent, or other entity take the monetary chance. For a major deal, you have to have the looks, talent, production, and all of it wrapped into a nice sellable package that says "dollars" to the guy on the other end of the pen. And when it is all said and done, the label is really just giving you a loan in the form of an advance for your cuts anyway! The truth of the music business has always been that it is a "business" first and music second. Play and write music for yourself, perform because you want to and love it, make money from your day job...but don't loose the dream! Just figure out what your missing and go from there! It starts with an honest appraisal of your talents.
When Derek asks for responses he gets them!
Almost always encouragement because it reaffirms my belief that self-sufficiency=empowerment. Know how to do it first so you can decide if you want to handle the job or delegate it to someone else...with the ability to tell them how you want it done. Go Muckwork!
One of the few things that has been a comfort to me in pursuing a full-time 'job' as a musician is the perception that it is all up to me to create the music career of my choosing. We all have the ability to try to shape our lives the way we want and I think we should approach our music careers no differently.
This sort of thing is really up to the individual, and what they want out of music/life, but for me it boils down to happiness. I am happy playing music an writing songs in pursuit of the magic that it can create for me and other people. Creating good, and bettering myself as an artist and person, is the goal and all the other business things that go into being a musician are just additional challenges that play a part in meeting that goal.
For me to accomplish the things I wanted in life, and also succeed at achieving my musical aspirations, my answer was to convert a retired school bus into a motor home/tour bus that offers all the comforts of home and runs on waste vegetable oil. I researched the idea for a year before I decided to make a move on purchasing a bus. I am now two years into the project and anticipate at least another year of construction. I have already learned so much about so many things outside of music that the experience has been rewarding on many different levels.
The only person standing in the way is me and I am encouraged by that. I am documenting the process online if anyone is interested...http://www.ChrisMerkley.com/The_Bus.html
Good luck to all in whatever it is you're pursuing!
Inspired, motivated, stimulated by how the mystery of doing the sacred thing works...as always, amazed by how many people are starving for these questions. love you, Jess
Unfortunately, I learned that a long time ago...and I find that it is just makes me more determined to succeed, with whatever I decide to pursue.
one more thought...if you are just starting out and want to do music...i would recommend that you have at least $10,000 before you move to LA or whatever city. as well, it is my opinion that you have money coming in from outside of music. money is what the business people care about...not what chord you use or insightful lyric you sing.
you want help? money and power talk.
What agent works for 10% !!! (he he)
You better LOVE what you do no matter what....and just do it......nobody gives you nothing in this world without expecting something in return. Hopefully someone will like what you do and want more of it.
When I was in about third grade my teacher asked what I wanted to be when I grew up. I said that I wasn't sure of what but that if I had to sweep the floors to get involved with whatever I decided to do, that would at least get me in the door. I'd work my way up from there. Even then I raked leaves and shoveled snow and mowed lawns and always had a little cash. That was about 1963 and I continued to work till 2000 when I decided to do music full time. Now my work is my play and I'm very happy. If what I produce in the studio pleases some, the rest will come. Hard work pays big benefits.
Although your statement, that no one will help, is a rather typical sentiment in this industry, I find that as with most everything else in my life, the so-called "realistic" view ain't necessarily so. Thank goodness I reject that attitude, otherwise I would not have already received so much of the help that has come my way. Does the expectation that people will help, stop me in any way, shape or form from being pro-active in my career? Does it stop me from moving forward and being the boss of my success? Of course not! I am the producer-writer-musician-company CEO-band leader and decision maker in my world and it's a wonderful thing! And guess what? Still I have been blessed with people who have helped move my projects forward
(which includes financial investment). So, does your statement encourage or depress me? I'd say I find it a depressing statement because (a) it sounds so sad, (b) I know from experience its not true, and (c) unfortunately many people will actually believe you. I would much rather hear a far more "realistic", (and much less absolute) statement that suggests it may not find that kind of help; or that one should not rely on such help. But to say that absolutely none exists until you become successful? Very un-realistic!
Both. I get discouraged, want to quit, but then I realize this is what I want to do, come hell or high water, & I buckle down & do it. I am also the eternal optimist. I will always believe someone at some point IS going to help me- maybe not with a $500,000 investment, but enough to help. I am disappointed a lot, I get discouraged, then I realize this is what I want to do...
It feels good to know I have done what I have done despite obstacles, but that doesn't mean I've done it alone.
Great post! We all have a story that we tell ourselves to justify what is happening to our music careers. Personally, I know musicians that still cling to the ideal that all they have to do is produce that “brilliant” cd and the “industry” will come knocking on the door in a frenzy! Then when reality hits and there is no knock at the door, out come all the stories as to why they’re all wrong and just don’t get what we’re doing! My experience is that it’s always been a nobody’s interested in you until everybody’s interested in you music world.
No reason to be discourage or encourage if you have your feet on the ground...success call success.
))))
My experience is that in my past I have signed in a major compagny and the same month received proposition from 3 others big rec. labels(the month before we were totally ignored)...plus help states(I have put all this money to help my mates unsigned), also a booking agent but it was too late cause my phone was ringing, so no agent needed..
Help yourself the others will help you(I know it sounds like a cliché, but I'm tired tonight
NB:some stupid people can joke when you talk about your project and try to discourage you....fuck them and keep working.
make things happen yourself. you will need musicians and transportation and get on the phone
and do the bookings yourself.
call about ten 0'clock at night
and ask for the entertainment director/manager.they won't be there. ask for their name from whoever answers the phone. call the next morning and ask for them
by name and do your thing. they will ask how much you charge and you ask what there budget is and
go from there...make it happen..
I did this with a top 40 band for years...
At some point, we all EARN money by the talent we possess and the gifts we offer others.
Wants and desires aren't goals -- that is simply the flavor of your journey.
peace-
seanrox
I moved to Nashville about two years ago- I have a few friends in town, but they are pretty busy trying to climb their own ladders,so I cannot afford any expectations of help. I am trying to do my work, sort things out, make my plans, and do the footwork.
To me the strange thing is that the universe acknowledges the energy I put in, but very rarely from the direction I think it should be coming from. I am enjoying the whole ride for the most part and making friends and can't wait to see what happens next. The friends I have made are in the same boat as me, kind of the class of '08, and maybe we will make some noise in a while, but only if we continue to do our work.
The bottom line is the music business is one of the worst investments in the world so you cant blame investors for not investing. The best bet is to keep your expectations low and love what you do. If you make a living doing what you love then who cares about getting outside help. I work with some of the biggest names in Hip Hop and I make more than most of them without a Record Deal. I even release projects for them in between their label projects to make extra cash.
For the last few months now, I've been very clear about what I want for a music career--to make, play and record with didgeridoo. I'm not looking for fame and fortune but like anyone else, I am looking for a loyal following who loves what I do because it feeds them and so far I'm finding that. In return, it feeds me.
Like many commentators on this page, I've always been a self-starter but I've also had a lot of help in smaller ways that add up to a LOT of support over the last several months. I truly believe that it's this kind of support that keeps us going.
I am very grateful and I'm aware that these are all signs that I'm headed in the right direction. I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. As a result, my life has been rich in so many ways....and so it continues....
Best of luck and much success to everyone here!!
hi derek,
i think this is a "realistic" way to look @ the situation as an artist....
for me, as an artist my view is that this is my life's passion, work & outlet of my self expression....so i will do this no matter what.... i will keep putting out my "creations"....everywhere....& i am so excited by my spoken word, music, meditation cds and other forms of my creativity that i know others are also, and even more will soon be.
with this attitude i find the "right" people find you...they want to....
so, when you don't "need" it; whatever the "it" is..."it" is always there
peace & light
At 30 something in the '80s writing pop songs and "looking to make it" I would have found this discouraging and in that era - NO INTERNET, no iTunes and no independent affordable CD/music making. But now as a jazz/new age artist post 20 years later, not bothering to "crash" the pop consciousness, I take encouragement from that BUT, personally if I was making $5000 a month (did you say?) from my music I would be satisfied - I might even want to run back to solitude. I WOULD NOT be looking for a bigger career or "to make it" and so would not want the services of the commercial companies.
Which do you prefer more: creating, composing music and recording/playing or dealing with the mega-hassles of stardom?
Every step of the way we'll have to make up our minds or you won't enjoy your road.
Having said that: it still leaves me and some of us not in rock/pop with a problem. How to get enough "fans" or people to just stop long enough on the internet to take a listen let alone a download when we have no "media frenzy" - most people will run to You-Tube
I haven't tried that yet...
Yes, Derek Sivers writes good thought producing articles.
later, Michael Guy, CD AugustOceanOverture
Well, frankly, it used to be discouraging. Now I've grown so used to the discouragement that it's mostly neutral. My old bands were almost picked up by labels repeatedly, and played small shows with national acts for which we received very little money. We did a lot of waiting for the big world to notice us. A small world did, and I'm very grateful for that.
The thing is, we are musicians, not business people. I have no special acumen in marketing. I'm not interested in cultivating it that much, either. So in this climate, I've just shot myself in the foot. Fair enough.
In order to reach a lot of the larger group of people who would likely respond to my music, I need people to help me get in magazines and on influential blogs. I need bookers to get me on appropriate stages. I need radio promotion companies to endorse what I'm doing. And in order for this to happen, somebody's got to sniff and say, "I smell money." They're not going to do it from altruism. Or else I'm going to have to come up with the money myself.
Anway, I don't make Maria Carey-type popular music, so I also need the hip tastemakers to jump on my bandwagon. And I don't think that can be coerced.
I could be wrong about all of this, but the only way to find out otherwise is to devote myself to relentless self-promotion and see what happens. (But I'm happier writing and playing music, and that's going to continue to get the lion's share of my energy.)
Consolations are plenty: If people don't have the expectation that they're going to make a lot of money off you, and you yourself don't try to "position" yourself to make a lot of money, then you really are free to make the art you want to. And if you persevere, and the music you're making is interesting, you're bound to meet some other great musicians along the way, and develop friendships and mutual respect.
And you can concentrate on communicating with the audience that exists for you, and not break your heart over the audience that eludes you. As George Harrison said, "Beware of maya."
So yes it's discouraging, but meanwhile I just put out a CD with one band and am finishing one with another. I'm playing shows of my songs and accompanying songwriters I respect at other shows. I do session work when someone asks, and write when I'm blessed. And yes I've even got a myspace page and a CD baby page. Who has time to be discouraged? On to the next task.
If a person is good enough they will draw investors. You cannot buy talent and if you have to go trying to find investments--Too bad. Not going to happen
Wow so many opinions on this.
I think it's a motivation to inspire me to keep working until someone can't resist helping, I've had many people tell me how they've been moved by my music, when your blessed to get an encouraging word it stokes the creative fire, thats true help.
I say move the world with music and don't stop if you stop you'll never know the potential or the real fulfillment.
Help yourself or no one else will, unless your just lucky or incredible.
Enjoy the moment of making music, working on your career, communicating with other people and noone will be able to discourage you. At least that's what made my life as a musician happy after struggling with setbacks in the business.
I like your frank and honest answer.
It takes a thick skin to be in the music business. Waiting to get discovered? Forget it! Make people find you, but don't hide. The internet andf old fashioned posters/phone calls are still viable. Entertain yourself and the audience will probably be too.
Hey I know help is always good, but don't wait for something to fall out of the sky! Do what you gotta do until the opportunity meets your preparation.
www.myspace.com/txk2002
I just do music. Would be nice to get paid, but maybe other people don't like what I do. That means I have the same amount of fun but just have to make money somewhere else while the global economic climate plummets. I could be a banker (probably unemployed)...where's the fun in that?
"I stick it up for you Jobu. You no help me now...I say f—k you Jobu. I do it myself."
—Pedro Cerrano, from MAJOR LEAGUE
Be creative in art and business.
I am encouraged by the thought no-one else will know how to truly give me a break.
Why? Because its another area to express my creativity. I made a decision early in life to lead a creative lifestyle and I see music AND business as an outlet for that.
If you are looking for management you have to ask the question - If I were a manager would I want to manage a band or a bank? That's why there is a bank sub branch on every second corner and an un-managed band playing on alternative corners.
How would you know a good manager if you fell over them? Only by knowing what skills they require. Fortunately you can get to know that by studying management in the microcosm of yourself.
There are 3 parts to your sound
1. Your technique on your instrument
2. Who you put your sound with - how you gather a band and communicate with them
3. Where you put your sound - getting the music out there. Where you play and how you manage that to enable it to keep happening.
Its all creative and that inspires me.
I sway between both feelings, honestly, Derek! Some times I find the motivation to push, push, push and try and make my own success, and then other days I find myself tired of slogging through it all without any help and wonder "Why can't I have an agent/manager like so-and-so?" Of course, when I have those feelings I try to turn it INTO motivation by looking at what so-and-so is doing and seeing how I can replicate it in a way that works for me... so that maybe I will find myself at that next level and be able to inspire an agent or manager to come on board.
I also do try to utilize the help I DO have--like family and friends who are willing to be put to work if you just ask them. They can't do it all ALL the time, but when you have a big show coming up, or something specific you can put them to work on, they're almost always willing to do whatever they can.
Being a business unto yourself can certainly be a lonely and daunting task at times, but if you reach out and network, and "steal" ideas from the people whose success you want to mirror, it's far LESS lonely and daunting. That's what I would tell anyone who feels the "discouraged" sentiment.
No one cares about your career as much as you do. I've tried to prove this theory wrong many times and always come back to being my own CEO. That is the way to go...
I think this just gets back to the reality that there is no magic "someone else." You have to own your path, be willing to work and stretch yourself, build a support network, etc.
I don't find this discouraging at all; it just eliminates a lot of time-wasting activity!
If your friend was discouraged by your answer, then he's probably not going to stay the race!
In my opinion, you are dead right that no one is going to help you and it gets right back to "there is no such thing as a free lunch" and also that you have to be willing to "help yourself"
You HAVE to want to make it badly enough to get your butt in gear and work long and hard (like you) to promote yourself, create a buzz, sell yourself and your product and just keep on doing that until you succeed.
This is not for the weak of spirit, nor for the lazy.
Agents and managers do not rush to take you on for a client - UNLESS - your have already achieved a measure of success.
Of course not everyone wants the same level of "success".
If you hope to be extremely famous and sell millions of CDs you will have to pursue your dreams in that direction. It will be a long, hard road. No one will help you.
If you just love to write songs, and share your music with others and measure success by how much enjoyment your work gives others, and perhaps sell a few CDs along the way, your aspirations will not be as demanding. However - still No one is going to help you do these things. You are still going to have to work hard, and do everything yourself.
I suppose I had a dream once that it would be fun to be famous and a million seller - but after a number of years of observing the music biz, seeing what happens to people's dreams, and seeing some of the famous chart toppers come tumbling down in ashes, I'm happy to settle for writing the songs that come to me from various sources, recording them, selling a few cds, going into a few song contests and getting honourable mentions, and pleasing people with the songs. ....
Oh yes, another source of satisfaction - being in command of an internet broadcasting station which allows me to -flying in the face of no one helping anyone (LOL) - play indie music where mainstream radio will not.
I tend to agree... the idea that we will get no help focuses us on doing what's doable from were we are right now. Unconditional action... leaving the comfort zone... going the extra mile...
But I wonder where it leaves the aspiring person who has only their ten fingers, their ideas and their belief. What if you're ready for that commitment but don't have the next level of physical resources to invest on the spur of this understanding?
Without support, you can still act alone to satisfy the principle, to satisfy the personal need for music, let's say, or to avoid stasis. But there's nothing like getting in the car with a full tank of gas, knowing that you can go.
My gut feeling is that music is communication, it's like an intelligence that wants to be passed around in groups.
The fulfillment comes when people do get together on something without too much rigid thought about what they're going to get out of it.
best wishes & thanks as always.
I love the fact that i have all control over my 'MUSIC' and not to mention i love CDbaby and that most of the money comes all to me. plus i promote it 'Whenever & Wherever' i see fit all one need really is'RADIO' play and the rest is a piece of cake im out! -TOMMY of 'THE TAKE'
Hey Derek,
I'd want to know the truth so I did not waste energy barking up the wrong tree in a fantasy.
When you know what the reality is you can tackle something solid. Maybe take a list of great plus's that exist these days and add them to the challenges--such as global distribution a snap, costs very low, etc.
Kalib
Derek, you asked me to comment so here I go.
I am going to take address your friend's question - and then I will comment on your response.
The first question is: "How can I find a great/major booking agent?"
First of all, why is an agent required? Just curious. Do artists always require one?
"And how can I find an investor?"
Why does he want only 1 investor? How about 1,000 investors? or 10,000? Do they have to be called investors? What if they were TRUE FANS that ongoingly contribute to an artist's success?
And why does he need $500,000? What is this based on? Does he have a business plan that warrants that kind of funding? Is it going to be profitable? What is his proof (if any)?
Next, as to your response. I am aligned with most of it but personally, I do not think cynicism is required - it's just a simple reality check. Like a weather report.
Also, if he's really serious to hear people's contributions then he will naturally take the next step. If he was so easily discouraged by someone basically saying "Dude, why would I give YOU $500,000???"
And last but not least, I don't think anything has to be done alone - ever. It never has as far as I can tell.
And, I don't think it's true that "no one will help you until you're already successful." I just don't see much evidence for that. Just look at the number of responses on this post.
Nothing happens in a vacuum ;-)
Last, but not least, to answer your question: "Does hearing 'Nobody’s going to help you. It’s all up to you' discourage you or motivate you?" I answer with, NO it does not motivate me. But motivation is not what I am looking for - and neither is your friend. As far as I can tell he/she is looking for attention.
And they definitely got it! LOL
Best of luck to your friend.
There is much to learn.
-Vwodek
Good question this: when you think that nobody’s going to help you, does that encourage you or discourage you?
Maybe, in regards to what you are saying, the word 'cynicla' should be replaced with the word 'realistic'. Whatever the case, it gets a point across.
One thing to realizie is thatveryone has an agenda, even those who claim to be doing charityand, in the music biz, there's really no one doing that. Agents, managers and investors, especially the really good ones, are not going to be motivated to 'shell out' money, time or effort on anything that is not a proven success already. Damn, but it sure would be nice if you could just sit back, do nothing at all, and let others bring you 'to the top', but it ain't gonna happen, and I don't think that's a cynical thing to say at all.
If you aren't willing to do for you, then why should anyone else be interested in the doing? If you aren't up to the challenge, then, the bottom line is this...better go find something else to do. If, however, you love challenges, and don't mind tackling the obstacles that will definitelyu be in the way, and find it 'fin' to do all the stuff that needs to get done, then this is what you really should be doing, but, for the most part, in order to jump start a career, you really do have to do most of the dirty work yourself. Friends, fans and others may join in with you, and help you, and for no cost at all, but even heree, there's got to be something in it for them, and even here, you yourself still have to do whatever it takes to get things going cos, after all.
In short, once you realize that the onus is on yourself, and are willing to accept that and go for it anyway, it's really not too bad, and no reason to get discouraged.Like you said, as soon as you are successful, making that $5000 a month, sure,you are going to get all the help you want / need. Until then, though, better muck about yourself. Otherwise, it ain't gonna happen.
Good article and good point!
Bryan Anthony
www.wickmanmusic.com
Derek,
There was a time when those were very discouraging words...but with the gift of experience and learning as a DIY musician, they are honest and actually come as a relief.
No wonder the big agent hasn't come down from the sky with a great deal for me!
Also reminds me of when I was preparing to manufacture my first CD. I asked a friend who was kind of a venture capitalist to invest a small amount and the questions he asked me, as a venture capitalist made me realize that I didn't have a plan for paying it back. I was just "hoping" I could.
At first I felt stymied, and then I realized that I had credit on my own personal credit cards. I talked it over with my nervous wife and put up as much cash as I could from gigging and teaching and paid the rest on my own credit.
Then I worked my behind off making sure I was going to pay off that bill and not make my family suffer for my indulgence!!
And I did. So far, every recording project has paid for itself, and even made money. (That's 10 recordings!).
It also taught me to get a business credit card so I could charge these kinds of expenses to the business, where they belong, instead of on a personal card with card repairs and household costs.
I still work my tusch to pay them off.
The honest word just feels good...
but the sense of loneliness does creep around trying to convince me that I am alone, and what I do doesn't matter.
If I had an agent, I don't think I'd be less lonely!! That I've got to work on myself.
Rachel Harrington (195) and Peggy Scalzo (209) shine a couple of important lights here.
In everything else in the work/job line, nobody's going to help; that's the way it is, encouragement neutral. So why should it be different with music? And why do we all suffer to some extent from the "if only I can find the magic helper?"
I think the "when you wish upon a star/makes no difference who you are" syndrome is driven into us and driven into us by the entertainment and especially the music industry and its media (the good old "overnight success"). So Prince Charming/Fairy Godmother/Shrek just lurks there in the brain getting in the way and de-motivating.
I was going to say lots more but the other two have said it already, so go read them!
Well they say nothing succeeds like success. What do they mean by that?! I think it means that nobody will help you if you don't help yourself. You'll never find anybody to help you if they're not impressed by your efforts. I've generally found that there are all kind of folks to help you, but you have to know thru your own wisdom & experience if the 'help' makes any sense. When asked what he could attribute his success to, Groucho Marx said (I'm paraphrasing), hard work, talent, but most of all luck and being at the right place, at the right time. So it's a crap shoot at best & at the risk of using too many cliches, you have to be in it for the ride, not the destination.
This is what I do; it’s just that simple to me. I figured out along time ago, you don’t retire from this gig! But I do get help; it comes from other musicians wanting to play my music for no pay on occasion and a caring wife that helps me in so many ways.
But to expect that someone will come along and bankroll my music endeavors, well that’s not going to happen. So I get up everyday and try to write the best damn song I can, that’s all I can do.
Peace!
I'm encouraged. It's a great realization... though I still forget it at times.
I think some people don't get the point. It doesn't mean you're in the cold, all by yourself. But you do have to be in charge of your compass.
Thanks for the reminder.
+++ Joe +**
I'm stuck on the problem of the $500K. With no real experience, the fellow arrived at that figure. No, before he's taken a step, he's convinced himself that he needs everything on that huge shopping list. That bit of idle imagining will always be a roadblock to him.It's such a big one, he'll never get passed it.
Ah well.
It's depressing AND exciting! It sucks to do everything yourself, but that's the only way it works. If becoming a successful musician was easy, everyone would do it. And then it wouldn't be easy anymore.
You are a unique individual. My answer is that it discourages me because we all have to learn to live here in this world together. If it is only the "most determined", "strongest", "luckiest", "most motivated" who survive then the best, most innocent, creative part of our world will be lost. It is helping others (as you are doing) that makes the difference...not singleminded selfishness. In the end, the statement about "gaining heaven" from the movie "The Bucket List" is certainly true..."at the gates of Heaven you are asked two questions...and how you answer determines whether or not you get in.....1. Did you have joy in your life? 2. Did you bring joy to others in your life?
The good news is that if you do make it, you will be indebted to no-one and you will not have to repay the $500k you wanted to borrow.
I for one will not go into debt.
Derek, once again, you are proving that you are one of the great sages of these days. I say that because we've all been there ... I can't tell you how many times I've dreamed about how much I can do with a major agent and a sponsor with deep pockets to take my career to the next level.
I'm a work in progress, still optimistic about getting my songs heard by everyone.
But, when I reflect upon the things I'm most proud of in my life, it's always from times where my "other" self had to show up. When there's no one around to "save me," I step up my game plan and was there to save myself.
Thank you for the good food for thought!
I find these thoughts helpful, because they are realistic and can only help me do thinks right. They also make me think that building up something from the bottom, starting slow and seeing it grow, is nice. Who thinks that a big flower is always more beautiful than a small flower? When I pressed my CD's (6 x 1.000), I was expecting that they would sell well. They didn't, and this fact helps me to focus on my music again. If I want people to remember me for something, it's not for selling a lot of CD's - but for making good music :o)
Hi, Derek and everyone-
What a great question to put to us all! And the answer to it is a deeply personal one.
Each of us has his or her own reasons for pursuing a career in music, and these reasons will have a pivotal impact on whether the "realities" (as we seem them, as they are portrayed to us, etc.) of the music business will be a source of inspiration and encouragement of a source of disappointment and discouragement.
In my case, besides the incredible feeling of fun I get from the intellectual challenges that music provides, it is the deep and intimate connection with my fellow human beings - fellow musicians as well as audiences and others, that gives me the deepest spiritual and emotional fulfillment from making music.
That being the case, conversations around music and the business of music that disparage or minimize this human connection are to me discouraging.
Saying things like "you're on your own", "only you can help you", "you're the only who can do this for yourself" are to me statements which describe a distance between people, a loneliness, a separateness. And I find those ideas and sentiments to be both false (based on my experience and beliefs about human nature and life), and also saddening as they can instill in people a hardness of heart, a cynicism, a negativity which is antithetical to creation and performance of great music.
There is no denying that there are certain things that each human can only do for him or herself (like breathing, practicing ones instrument, taking care of ones health). However, ultimately it is an emphasis on the deep and eternal connection between people and all things that brings about the best in all of us. Emphasizing our separateness and our "alone-ness" is, for me at least, therefore not the way to bring out the best and the most productive and creative side of me.
But again, this is a deeply personal issue, and each one of us is different in how we react to others and what brings out the best in us.
~Arun
Arun Luthra - saxophonist, composer, arranger
www. ArunLuthra. NET/music.html
myspace.com/arunluthra
facebook.com/people/Arun_Luthra/749669061
cdbaby.com/cd/arun
Motivated.
A bank won't lend money without a down payment - not because they need the money, but because they want to see that you have the ability to pony up at lease SOME cash.
Music is like that - you have to get to where you don't need an agent before they'll be of any real use. Derek has some great advice about that, as well; "Don't Suck". Putting the time into your craft is the equivalent of a down payment (by the way, he and I are both talking about ALL aspects of the craft, not just playing well, but showing up on time, being sober, following up with contacts, etc).
It's VITAL to get out of the mindset that other people have more impact on your career than you do.
"Plan the work, then work the plan."
Tony Barker
"He'd wanted me to fly my mind, and act on what I've known for all these years. I'd failed a Test of Faith, or so it seemed..." - From "The Way It Is In Dreams" - Tony Barker CD, "All In" http://cdbaby.com/cd/tonybarker
It's a sobering reality that every musician must embrace. This reality makes you ask the question, "how bad do I want this?" Ultimately, there are some incredible circumstances that have to come together for someone to "make it" but it really comes from hard work and raw determination and love of your art. You have to believe more than anyone else, and you have to be okay when you don't get help from even the people you would've sworn would be beating down your door to help. Ultimately, people will come out of the wood work to embrace you and laud you once you have some Benjamins and get some time on the radio--ie. becoming a name. But do or die, baby, if it is to be it's up to me. Live it. I'm not withholding the reality of those blessed people who do breeze into our lives and are of great help, but you can't count on that as your driving force. Be who you are because who you are is art. And who you are is unique in this world. I get a ton of wind in my sails by networking and being encouraged by other musicians who are in the trenches w/ me. Anyway there's my Thursday rant. Believe it!
DIY if you can...and do it your way! You don't need help! It takes longer and you'll sleep less and you need to be part of a team...the right team...a team that respects you for your talent and for your actions and positive attitude...and a team that you respect in return for the same reasons. At some point you may need to decide: Do I want 100% of what I acheive without help...or do I accept help and have 50% of something "bigger". In normal circumstances help arrives when you've already done something right... That's what I think!
Until I reached my mid-20's, I was still caught up in the idea of "making it". I did all the things you're supposed to do and learned 2 things. First, time spent trying to get someone else to notice me was time AWAY from the thing I loved most - music. And secondly, I noticed the people who were "making it" weren't very good, and hadn't paid they're dues - many had never even performed live (eg spice girls, avril lavign. It's just a crap shoot run by people who don't care for music. So I quit trying and just focused on making music . . PERIOD. I've been very happy and satisfied ever since.
Derek! it's a relief. most think the worst anyone can say is 'no.' lol. my experience is that 'yes' can be far worse, if one needs time or control...
if someone wants to pay, they want to Own; which seems fair...
I think your advice was On. AND. it stands with your other advice in the section on CD Baby. There is a chapter called DIY, I think- your other point was: we can't do it all alone. So while I may not have $500,000., I have my ingenuity, talent, and a growing group of people who can help in small ways....
Kid Rock did it with interns. Joni Mitchell booked her own shows and was her own roadie- while writing her first five albums.
As I understand it, the more I let someone else pay for my learning and development curve- the more they own and can take credit for my work (which is ok in 1 in 100,000 cases but...)
So. I'd rather know. Knowledge is power. Enthusiasm without knowledge can take us back in addition to never getting us forward (in my humble opinion).
Thanks Derek. It's hard telling the truth. We might succeed knowing the truth...cause the only thing harder than being honest, to me, it seems, is making it big as an honest person....
(well. like you. observation, not flattery)
stef
>>> Does that encourage you or discourage you ?
Makes me laugh ! If it were true then life wouldn't be possible...
Help is available. Just look for it...
As an indepedent unknown recording musician / producer I believe that Derek's advice, while it may not be the kind of advice that any enthusiastic recording artist might want to hear, ...is right.
Joni Mitchell once said in an interview " people say I'm being negative, but I say " I'm being realistic ".
NO - there ARE NO recording labels, agents, etc that will do anything for unknown independent recording artists.
And particularly if you are under the misconception that somehow you might be able to " get famous " on line - forget it.
With the advent of digital technology and the affects it's had on the recording industry, it's a whole new ball game.
While music is my passion and in my blood, I have learnt that there
are things in life that are equally, if not more important...
like the love of your family.
Take the time to realise who you really are.
And count yourself very lucky.
An artist's delight can be a lonely road and everyone wants a cut. Rarely will anyone invest upfront for the gamble of a more significant return later. But then there are people like you Derek, who help us by sharing experiences andproviding tips.... AND setting expectations so we all know it takes time and effort.... thanks for all the support you give us.
Andy
Well, so what else is new? I don't feel heroic determination in the face of 'no help' just the same driven need to make music and continue whatever. Was it ever any different? people who aren't friends won't help you unless it makes business sense to them. It is hard but not suprising.
I find it to be a very lonely existance, realizing that nobody, not even band members, will pitch in. I've gone completely solo because of that, despite the facts that my voice isn't naturally good and that I never had aspirations to sing. I'd much rather play guitar in a rock n' roll band. But the decision was the only practical one. We can spend years looking for the right collaborators, or we can get things done and do them at a much faster pace than waiting around for others allows. So take charge, kick ass, do it better than anyone. Get good at the things you suck at. It's a war that is comforting. It never feels good to be a victim of others' laziness or lack of support/ambition. At least we die giving it our best shotwith no one to blame but ourselves if we fail. And all successes are ours to keep. Burning out, never fading away.
Hello Derek,
I am running into a matter right now where someone is illegally selling my music but thank god for
your company CDbaby because if it wasn't for your company the individual would probably be getting
all of my money and I wouldn't be getting any.
With my experience there are 3 types of people in this business,
1. A person who can help you out.
2. A person who will not help you out at all.
3. A person who will help you out
but at the same time trying to
make money off of you , like this evil person in New Jersey.
I disagree about a person making $5000 a week as a musician in order to acquire a booking agent.
I know several people with booking agents who are living from paycheck to paycheck.
It all depends on the individual.
Have a nice Christmas or
Hanukah:
Sincerely,
B.J Snowden
Wow, response number 294!
I'd say it neither discourages OR encourages me. Just reminds me to just focus on the music instead of looking for that "great booking agent" etc. Every hour on the computer is an hour not writing or playing music... now if you'll excuse me
I think you find a way to make it happen for yourself. Maybe he should think about starting with 1% of that budget...That is where I would start. I would set my business up there and move one. Why should anyone invest in you if you don't have anything to show for it. Maybe that's where this person needs to start.
On another note, I have a question about microfinancing for musicians. I am about to release my 1st Full length Cd in about a month and finances may delay my project. I am about 20% away. I work full-time and have invested 80% of the money needed to create the album. I know I could do it but it would delay my project another month in a half. Do you have any thoughts on how I can generate the remaining 3K? My credit is not that great either. Any tips.....
Derek,
I agree to some extend but there is a way to get help if you put yourself in the position to be helped. Network with people in the biz and remember, people do business with people they like!
Nan
I personally and honestly am not offended by your answer. I've been in the biz for quite some time and the only thing that ever happened was the stuff I made happen. Being indie isn't an easy place to be but if business is handled correctly and with unwavering passion it's the best place to be so man make it happen. We (artists & musicians) need to stop looking for handouts and miracles because real live hustle turns into everything we're looking for, I'm proof.
Been doing it myself all these years... Bustin' my ass full time and around the clock. I feel good about the success I've made on my own. Best of luck to everyone in '09'...
Rob Anthony
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rob-Anthony/26803146584
http://www.myspace.com/robanthonymusic
http://www.robanthonymusic.com
Well, I'm with you fellers.. It's not just Music, it's everything! That whole get it done right, do it yourself is one of the things I'm always mindful of. Sometimes even when people do try to help, it doesn't make it any easier. You're grateful, and it doesn't mean you don't appreciate the help, but ultimately YOU are responsible for everything, good or bad, that happens.
I'll just focus on what I can do. That way, one day I can say 'I did that..' and know I did it to the best of my ability. I think that makes it all the more sweet if it comes off.
And if it doesn't? Oh well, I tried, when billions don't.. Like Derek said one other time,'Is your first CD/Album/Song the starter's flag or the chequered flag?'
It's Lap One for me, baby!
peacenlove to you all..
B-Dub
We as individuals are in a position to think positive or negative.No one and I repeat no one can go through life without help.Who is your God, Master Mind or whatever you want to call your supreme bein? We all receive help in a positive or negative way.
Having no-one but me to help has always motivated me. Being the "black sheep of the family" probably got me started. Even when i was signed to a record company, the only "help" i really had was to have someone else make decisions for me, which i disagreed with. Then, to top it off i was "helped" out of all of my royalties when the company went bust.
Being totally in control of my career means that i am in my comfort zone, where i call the shots, and i reap the rewards. Sure, it's somewhat slower than having a team at the helm, but i enjoy the process, and love a good challenge. I love for someone to say "it can't be done"...makes me all the more determined to find a way to do it
Ok, so if you are in the music business today there is nothing and knowone that will help you. The music must speak for itself! and most of all its not about getting somewhere, its about artistic survival, thats all you can hope for. If anyone is looking to gain in music, you are way off the path! None of us has control of what the audience likes or doesnt like. Its not up to you! So being discouraged is equal to basically being a fake.
I fully expect that no one will help me, and I am quite used to it... infact, I prefer it... Most of the times when people do offer to help me with anything, I tend to refuse... I like doing things myself.... but then again I'm a pretty odd individual....
My two cents, take it how ya wanna...
Peace and Blessings,
-Él
for every artist who has quietly worked at their art and been 'successful' there must be a thousand more who weren't 'successful'. This doesn't negate the value of the thousand.
My experience is that you do get some help if your material 'hits the mark' but even so - your continuing daily effort must come from within. The idea that some fairy godmother is going to cover the costs of a tour is a bit naive... if people will pay to hear your songs, they aint going to be more inclined because you now have lighting and a tour bus. Fact is - you've proved nothing except that you're willing to be carried if you're looking for a handout.
The cold and pleasant truth is that the world owes you nothing - particularly not their ears and attention - and the motivation for ones creative effort shouldn't be dependent upon reward. Ah ... well... having said that, it's nice to be appreciated and it's also useful to have a day job just in case the world is too busy to listen
The honest answer is: It depends on which day of the week I find out the bad news. Initially, maybe the first day it's very discouraging. And it may take a few days for me to figure out my way around, over, or under the block. At worst, I may end up having to abandon my plan. In any event, I'll have to change my strategy.
maybe someone will start reading from the bottom of the list...thus our chance of being noticed..(or helped)..when all seems lost...perhaps by chance-(or destiny)..that making the best music actually 'means' something...and one day the 'stars will align'...alas..our 'help' comes..thanks derek..totally inspiring
it's always been a strugle trying to make it just like the economy i grew up poor i used a broom as my horse and a piece of wood as a gun playing outside,i used to put sugar between 2 pieces of bread, you have got to be good at what you do,be ready and someone will come your way so it dosen't matter if i get help or not just keep pushing and keep the faith baby!peace!!
Well I know no one will willing help me if there isn't any thing in it for them. But everytimeI hear no get motivated because I know that there things that I need to do myself and God will deal with what I can't do myself.Every door that close on me I learn something I did not know about this business I didn't know before.So they are helping me not intentional but they are.What I learn so far is they I don't really need much help if any. With this internet one can do just about anything if they really put their mind to it. The God in whom I believe in said I can do all things through Christ Jesus who strenghten me and anything I do shall prosper if I have faith.
It "encourages" me in the sense that it motivates me. It's like I WILL show people that I can do this, that anything is possible if you put your mind (and your effort) to it. Defying people who say it's "impossible" or "difficult" can be a great motivation. I've got my new demo on over 160 radio stations in the past 7 months, sheerly through my own efforts, partially because a publisher here in Tokyo told me it didn't sound good enough to get airplay. I showed her. ;) However, now an A&R person has told me that labels aren't as impressed by radio airplay as they are by sales figures and TV exposure, so that's my next challenge. It does get discouraging sometimes when you take your eye off the task in front of you and start worrying about the "big picture", but I've really noticed solid proof of the "new age" theory that people will help you if you help yourself. I've really noticed that the harder I work, more and more strangers and opportunities appear "out of the blue" offering to help me. So it's not true that no one will help you, but as the old adage goes, you have to help yourself fist.
Here is the second installment of a home made documentary that I'm making about my quest to get to the top -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugdOJ_RXsLU&feature=channel_page
Best,
Laurier
Derek, once again you show more wisdom than just about anyone I know or have met in regards to this thing we call the music business. It all boils down to that (it's up to us and no-one else), and the sooner we realize and recognize it, the better off all of us musical types will be. I love the story of Les Paul (the electric guitar genius.) He didn't sit around waiting to be discovered, but went to New York and set up in the entrance foyer of the large building where top musical types would hear him, and sure enough, was hired on the spot. Not that all of us are that talented (: but it shows the type of daring that needs to happen if we are going to go anywhere. Or as one of my Christian friends put it, "How can God guide your steps if your feet ain't movin'?" Appreciate you, man.
Tom N Tierney
www.myspace.com/tomntierney
I just read an article on Warren Buffets' grand daughter. Warren is apparently a sower of self reliance, and only "gave" money to his grand kids for college, and schooling expenses. After that they're on their own. She's an artist in California and seems to be happy with what the article called a meager $40,000 a year. I do know that if you're doing what you love in any capacity, other people around you will witness whatever joy you reap from it. I would think that just as in most cases in life, a positive and healthy personna concerning my music, will always get people listening. Knowing that it is completely up to me, with no one else helping, is a call to use the same strength from within that created the music in the first place, so it's very encouraging. Knowing that my greatest gift is the "enjoyment" of music, I can always be happy working and growing in the trade of music.
I love the words, "God Bless The Child that has His Own,"and I love being self sufficient.I made my cd to please my self and if others like it and buy it that's an added blessing. Most people are too busy being selfish to help others without a great reward. I do not expect it.
We live in the age of the independent artist, we have to do it ourselves, but we don't have to do it alone.
So that article makes me very Happy!
This relates to the old KRS-One, Hip-Hop philosophy of self reliance. Where you don't reach out for help to no one, you find all your help from yourself. This is important because that way you don't get disappointed when no one helps you and you realize that all the power you need comes from yourself.
I actually am one of those who panic slightly at the idea of handing over responsibility, mostly because in the past if I didn't do it myself it didn't get done - I'd love to be proven wrong though! Truth is, no-one is going to care as much about your passion as you are.
But it seems like your friend had a particularly naive attitude - looking for $500,000 investors? Wow. Most labels wouldn't give even their most promising acts that much.
It's good to be forced to do everything yourself up to a point, but after a certain level of success is reached you do need others. But yeah, I like knowing exactly what's going on & feeling like it's up to me. It's much scarier to have a label or a manager who don't return calls!
then you're really stuck...
I remember a few years ago that fact really dawned on me- nobody is going to help me- nothing is going to be handed to me on a platter- I think its just a process of growing up understanding a little more of the reality of how this world and of course this industry works- the question then becomes- So if nobody is going to help me what am I going to do about it? I think that the kindest gift a person can give sometimes is a reality check- as tough as it may seem- it can create an objectivity that is vital to decision making and growth- art is so subjective- artists are often also incredibly subjective (as well as self absorbed and ego bound!)However the voice of reason doesn't quench hope it helps create realistic achievable goals that can continue expanding step by step... Hope in turn is the great motivator essential in any journey of discovery. In short that opening statement Nobody is going to help you- for me rings true- having said that- one of the things that I am continually observing about the Derek Silvers ethos is that it swims against the tide and is an extremely helpful and supportive one- so huge thanks!
Truth is ,No one here probably wanted hear that. I came outta the sixity's big deal era till few year back record companys froze , but awesome new's is realitys strength as the book The Art Of War sun tuz loved knowing his ways to loose thus he was very strong victorioues warrior .Fought less too. he knew when food was plentyful i.e. his soldiers fed.."Season" vehical's not caught in rut's traveling . "straight dedication". (Iniciate/ completion).Satisfaction win ,or loose.It's the next level of accomplishment !!(know yourself, your objective, how to get thier)
Aleee
I've never expected anyone to help so occasionally if someone does in some small way it's a nice surprise. I don't find it encouraging or discouraging to know that it's up to me, it's just the way it is. But what *really* encourages me is when someone is just plain nasty/discouraging/dismissive. That really fires up the "I'll show you!" attitude.
The less help I have, the more it motivates me, all things considered. I LOVE a challenge. If something is going to take years of blood, sweat, and tears to make work, BRING IT ON. It makes success that much sweeter.
I'll take this one step further: what if your OWN CLIENT won't help you accomplish the things that will make him successful? Does that discourage you from giving your normal 110% or do you say "forget it...I'm not the artist here" and walk away. For me, there is some initial frustration (not necessarily disappointment), but then I become encouraged again. Why? Because I have pride in the work I do. And because there will always be another artist who wants to work hard and who values my own hard work.
What I do in music is for self gratification. It is not the main focus in my life. If I am successful great, wheather I get help or not will not deter me from doing it because it pleases me. That's what motivates me.
Robert
I know that! It's all up to you, and if you want it enough, you will find a way. It's all about you anyway, and when the dollar sign is flashing, believe me, they will smell it and come to you.
Nobody is gonna help me?Of course i'm discouraged!!!i see a lot of brave people here,everybody likes to be on his own...i tell you what,i did everything on my own,but i would have given an eye sometimes to have some help or just a kind word...truth is that,when it's about surviving throught a storm,you give your best not to die,when it's about making it big in the showbiz,you can crap out a hit a day,if "they" don't want you in,you wont get into it...that's simple math...and God knows what they're fucking looking for...well...ok here it's late nite,hope not too sound too confused! everybody have a nice day!
No one has ever really helped me before, so why should they now? I have learned to self-motivate, get creative, plan, take action, pick myself up from the dumps & pat myself on the back. It's a lonely world! However, I have found ways to target new markets that suit what I am able to do, still maintain a job but I am performing 2-3 nights a week. It would be great to get someone to do the legwork, but I am not waiting on anyone! I feel empowered!
I am always encouraged by the thought of helping myself, first of all, it limits communication errors, downtime, and money paid to someone who is distracted.
I'm a huge believer in the individual.
and success has come from hard work and the right information.
Happy holidays Derek ! !
People fall in and out of my life at different times and different locations and are all a help to me one way or another. I've been releasing music for over 30 years with over 300 songs published/recorded.Some people actually want to help me but don't know what to do any more than I do..As long as I can continue to do music....Thats good enough for me..
it encourages me... motivates me to kick ass, and the rewards are that much better when you succeed this way!
In my whole music carreer I can't say that I have ever expected anyone to just invest in me so I am neither encouraged or discouraged. If I want gigs I know that I have to go out there and get them. If I have what I consider to be a good song I know that I am the one that has to somehow find someone who might wish to record it. Any big star always has had to prove themselves first. In other words the guy with the money has to see dollar signs when he sees or hears you perform your material.
Gary
Damn (and avoid) the torpedoes -- full speed ahead!
Hey Derek!
Good post. The thought doesn't occur to me often. Many years ago, the question to myself would have been "Who can I/we find to help this thing along?" I posed that question to myself because there was something already in place and working toward my benefit and to the benefit of folks I was working with, usually in bands. I simply found that people will step up to help when I already have something to offer.
Fast forward many years later to these days and times. With the advent of the Internet and all that it offers, I feel a statement more than the question that you pose. That statement is "I am free to do things as I see fit." Which means that I can do a lot or a little towards my career, anytime that I choose. And I find that comforting for some reason. When I do a lot, many things happen. When I do a little, just a few things happen. But the point here is that I keep things happening and going forward no matter what.
The older folks in the music industry gave me some advice many years ago when I was a youngster. They told me to learn how to do as many things as possible within my chosen field(s). Good advice. It turns out that the knowledge that I've gained over time has proven to be invaluable. A great help not only to myself, but of great help to so many that I have met and worked with.
As for your friend looking for an investor, I suggest that this blog post by Bob Lefsetz be read for some further insight -
http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2008/12/14/corey-smith/
I don't always agree with what Bob has to say, but there seems to be some good food for thought in many of his blogs.
I am willing to bet that many of the men and women who have posted responses to this blog know very much how to do more than just one thing in the music industry. Today's world of music demands this. And along the way, I am sure that they have not only helped themselves, but many other people along the way. Whether they realize it or not. And that's a very good thing indeed.
I will leave you all with a great poem. I copied it in large letters and put it up on my wall where I can see it every day. It goes like this -
"If you have a talent, use it in every which way possible.
Don't hoard it.
Don't dole it out like a miser.
Spend it lavishly like a millionare intent on going broke."
Brendan Behan-Irish playwright
Happy Holidays to all.
JL
Well now days the artsit has to do 90% of the work to get signed and the record label will do only 10%.
So you are the one who got to do most of the work before get signed. Do your own musc, plus do your promotion to get your fans, etc....
duh???? Other people are CONSTANTLY helping and ready to help! The question is whether or not I'm noticing and acting. The opportunities I desire are all around ALL me ALL of the time. But...am I ACTING on those crazy impulses? or....am I sitting around, spending my time making excuses concerning why it's not working and watching.....Oprah????
Derek - I don't play music to earn money. If money comes, that's fine. But . . . it's not the reason for the music. Sure, it might be nice to do music and survive on it. Maybe not. Every time someone adds money to the picture, the picture changes. The music/entertainment business is the business of making money and therefore replicates products maximizes profit. That's not my business. Can this change? Maybe.
real talk derick
Good answer that. Honest and to the point. I've always held that if you can't do it where you are, you can't do it. The music business never paid me much, monetarily. Teaching did. Now I do a lot of volunteer work because I absolutely hate having to fit into someone else's mold. The rewards for doing my music my way have been an enormous satisfaction.
Someone is waiting for help until now? It´s impressive.
These days we need to be jack of all trades. No way out.
That's what I believe: Work hard. This is what impulse me.
Hey Man,
This is not "News" to me. I've been in the business for over 30 years. So I'm not discouraged by this at all. I grew up in the 70s where bands got signed, got major advances and were stars over night. But then many times the artist was "Helped" in a bad way. ( Like the record label helped themselves rather than the musician )
The good part about being independent in todays market is that you can stay true to your own goals in music and you make all the calls.
Have a great holiday!
Keep up the good work.
Love Nelsen
No one has ever helped me but I had
a very rewarding and wonderful career. I sat and drank coffee with
Elvis Presley, Frank Sanatra, Dean
Martin, Robert Goulet and many acts
you would recognize immediately. Dean Martin once ask me what I ever did for Frank. I replied
"nothing why"? He replied, "well he
likes you and that's not Frank". If
you have a good entertaining act
don't worry about being a big star.
I can show you acts in Vegas that
make $250,000.00 every year and you
never heard of them. Your act better consist of more than a lot of loud music banging for 4 hours.
That sort of act has little if any
substance to it. Personally,I would
not have lived Elvis's life for all
the money he made in that life. We
were even ask to leave the restaurant at the Hilton because he
was drawing so many people they could not serve the food. I'm 76
years old this month and NO,I don't
care if no one helps me. Yes,I have
a cd on cdbaby.I have another cd
coming soon. (A comedy cd.)If you
are fortunate enough to make a good
living in a business you love, then
you have nothing to complain about.
One other thing. "Happiness is not a station you arrive at one day.It is the manner in which you travel.
That's the reason they put windows
in trains, cars and air planes. The
secret to making life's journey is
to take just enough baggage to get
there. You're not coming back.
NOW, GO DO YOUR THING AND HAVE A
WONDERFUL LIFE.....GENTLEBEN
I once received a card that stated, "Do the thing and you will have the power".
This is more true in the music profession than anywhere else. Go for it!
There's a hell of a gap between "No one will help you," and "No savvy investor's gonna invest $500,000.00 in your musical project." Same token, a top agent's not gonna waste his very valuable time on your goofy ass until you've shown you can deliver. But, people will help you. Small venue owners will go out of their way to help a good touring band find a slot. Local bands will often help you set up shows, and sometimes put you up for the night. Hell, if we do a show together I'll doubtless buy you a beer. If I'm having a good month, dinner's on me, too. What you can't expect is people, especially TOP people, Experienced, cynical, competent people, to take enormous risk on your unproven behalf. 500,000 dollars, or a major agency campaign, qualify as Enormous Risk.
And, by the way, Jesus Christ. What kind of fledgling project needs a budget of half a mil? "Payola?" How many people are on your payroll?
1. i help myself startng from nothing, then 5 cents to 10 dollars basking, then invest on my cds and dvd, then someone invited u and booking, then u organize ur conerts, travel...
2. poor people help u, they understand what ur music saying. they be ur audeinces first, they give u a hiden pray which is powerful.
3. God help u, He knows what ur need.
4. be a singing bird, sing everyday, improve everyday.
I love all the feed back from this
question. We all have one thing in common. We love music.
Ideally, artists should just have to create and business people should take care of the management.
Doing the business zaps all my
artistic energy. I have made a choice recently to just do the music
and let the good times roll. Audiences have been good to me and
that is worth more than big money.
I will never agree with the
artist having to do both jobs...it's burning the candle on both ends...
I have also had a lot of help
in my music life...usually when least expected. Of course, there
are many recipes. Mine is be true to yourself,work hard, stay in tune with your instinct and your path will be there for you. Pushing,shoving and imposing is not something I have ever wanted to do or will do..yet I have had a career in theatre, some tv and then music. How come ? It may sound trite,,,,what's meant to be is meant to be and on a couple of occasions when my little ol' ego
was insistant , nothing happened.
HELP might be standing under a tree in the rain and you write the most beautiful song of your life. HELP might be a big time agent who grabs you up and spins you on a tour non stop till you almost burn out and you suddenly remember that you are not a jute box...that your artistic output is a reflection of you,your complete life and everyone in it.Your life contains many aspects...colors and textures....We all need help in life and we humbly, gladly accept it. Do what works best for you but don't forget to take good care of yourself and your art.
Too bad there aren't more Derek Sivers in the world. We all have to do our part with the talents we have in the way we can.
Music for Peace...Peace in Music................
wichampi.
Which ever way, I've decided I have to keep singing, it's like I have to breath. It was said once, "if only the best birds sang, the forest would be silent", If it's in you, you have to keep letting it pour out.
A couple years ago I was sitting in a major producer's office with the blessing of him listening to my (then) latest CD, "Tribal Nation". He loved it! Then he told me that since I was over the age of 27, the record company would never sign me. Lets see. . .I can improve the music, put on phenomenal shows, and have hundreds if not thousands of people coming to the concerts, and make over $5,000 monthly doing shows, but I could not become younger than 27. Actually, I am eternal, thus ageless, but it takes a strong mind to go there with me.
Anyway, I look at it as simply a door that is not for me to go through. There are other paths, but trust God, yes.
I think it has to do with passion and love. What is it for you? If it is music, keep going and it doesn't matter. The smiles, the tapping of the audience's feet, etc. Those are the priceless rewards and benefits.
But I still would like to have a manager, agent, record contract, whatever. . .I will work to that end, always believe, never give up. . .but enjoy the journey in the meantime.
Damn right your not going to get any help until you already have something to offer them. And these days what you have to offer is going to have be very attractive.
Sure - the thought of other people (Even family members and friends)not going to help you might be a bit discouraging at first. As soon as you get done sobbing about all that - grab yourself by the ears and pull your head out of you buttocks and motivate.
A good question! I was inspired to answer thus:
Life is a paradox. This question is also.
One size, one answer, will not fit us all.
To become a tree, be a seed with need
to grow very slow, not a wish to be suddenly tall.
It’s OK to dream and the self-imposed barriers
that keep dreams alive, will drive others on.
Dreams are of ego and therefore receiving.
Art is expression; of self-satisfaction.
If others enjoy what I make, then I’m giving.
Surely giving cannot be achieved on my own?
As I watch the fledglings outside in my garden
and hear them cry out to their parents for more,
it appears like a torment; the parent ignores them.
I guess that they know that the hunger will harden
their will to survive and to find their own store.
Well as the old song goes, "So the bible says and it still is news. Your mama may have. Your papa may have. But God bless the child that's got his own, that's got his own."
You have to make your own rain in anything you do. And in the ridiculously competitive business of music, you have to work exceptionally hard at making your own rain.
The chances are that in the music business - like all independent businesses - you will fail. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try. It only means that the odds are against you. If you find that daunting, you really shouldn't be working independently in anything. Just find a 9-5 job and you'll be fine.
I happen to find the long odds in any independent endeavor a challenge. OK, most people fail, but I'm not most people. I'm damn good at what I do. I'm smart, capable, creative and organized. I feel that way every day. If I didn't, I'd be working for someone else.
I wonder if Derek is an Atheist?...perhaps when he is approaching 60 and his body is not able to function as before he will ask God for help? Is it wrong to pray for others...that they may get help?...or are we only concerned with our own motivations toward "business"?...perhaps one more look at "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens is worth the time.
It's honest. I know I like honesty. The questions you responded with were both discouraging and motivating. I guess it would depend on your tone of voice.
I have always known that nobody was going to help me. Always endured the pain of people not understanding where I was coming from. Realized early on that the dream of some mystery person / patron was not going to plop 500,000.00 or the going rate of 1 million into my lap just because they like the way I played my harp.
And I learned, learned, learned, that everybody wants you to do it for free... because you looooooove what you do!
You can't eat free, you can't drive free, you can't play free(instruments are expensive, You can't live free. House payments family etc. etc.
So get a day job Already! One that you can tolerate. One that limits take home work, and extra curricular meetings. One that you can predict the kind of time off you need so you can really make your living doing what you love to do.
Then you can go out on a limb, try the things you have always wanted to try. Play gigs on street corners, nursing homes, by the lake, in a tree. Say yes to everything (paid / unpaid)because you don't know who's listening, who's got money jingling around in their pocket for a birthday bash, company banquet, Anniversary....
Get yourself known, Use the internet and learn, learn, learn how to pull yourself up and out of the talented but unnoticed, unknown category!
It would seem that the discouragement comes from a focus on one's self. There's a feeling that no one is paying attention. But the real trick is to be more interested in others than you are in yourself.
When you start networking with people, opportunities will come. Just don't let your expectations ($500,000) get in the way.
Keep your eyes open to others around you. You might be surprised at what happens.
What is success? Making a million dollars a year or making that sad sack at the back table start laughing? Playing a sad song in a noisy bar and suddenly hearing the place go terrifyingly quiet? Are those people actually listening to me? You only need so much money; you can never have too many friends. Anyway, I'm not a performer--what I want to know is how do I get other people to sing my songs? (It'd probably help if I sang them myself instead of other people's songs--but their songs take me to places I've never been; my songs just take me to where I've already been.) Have fun. Enjoy. To hell with the agents.
Thanks D but i have to say we need eachother to make the world go around all races to help eachother to ahchieve the best position possible,but people are not the same anymore they close you out as thow your not a human being and are not worth the time of day but ive allways been the fire starter because in my hood you have to get yours and dont beg no one for nothin,but only genuine people help others with any qustions asked.Thanks Shaka Banton
I've thought that this was a time when we have to do it. There has been a paradigm shift. Maybe musicians can make a living like regular folks instead of bouncing on the past bipolar up and down , you're either a king or a pauper. Maybe this new shift will bring about a middle class to music and musicians.
The moral of the story is become a physician, Lawyer, Therapist, Engineer. Then do the music you choose rather than corporate sponsored toodlings
I can say for about 95% you are right, but you know there are some will help us, with out expecting anything, thats what we got, Fans, I normally call them as Friends...they WILL help, thats what happening to me... from this year onwards...so there is a hope...in every thing. So don't worry be happy....
Mike
Derek, you are teaching them how to fish while others (like Peggy, #209) give them fish to eat. Different approach, both valid, but with different outcomes.
you ARE 100% CORRECT THATS WHY IM HAPPY WITH MY DIGITAL SALES BECAUSE RECORD COMPANYS HAD ME RUNNING AROUND AND GOING KNOW WHERE. THATS WHY IM DOING JAZZ WIHT PIANO BY MY SELF. IM NOT MAKING A LOT BUT IM OUT THERE AND IM MAKING SOME MONEY and im pushing my self on you tube. and i just put out my new single this anit livin d.mills jazz
If somebody or nobody wanted to help me then there's nothing i can do about it.This would not stop me from helping them in a way that i could.So the answer is neither discouraging nor encouraging in a part of life one choses to live.
Okay, Derek, let me ask YOU a question.
I'm a talented, experienced author and songwriter. I've been doing my thing for twenty years. Even so, I've learned over that time, from you and other sources, what it really takes to succeed.
I have five children to support, and I know what kind of life I want to live. I want to be around my family and offer them a stable, safe existence and a father who's there. I made a purposeful decision to live this kind of life. It wasn't something I found myself in.
That being said, I still have my art. I still work, and I do what I can. I've got a website, www.adamcole.net, where I post my music, my self-published books.
I know for a fact that I can't really be successful, find my audience, do what needs to be done to bring in money with my work, as long as I'm living the kind of life I want and my family needs.
So if I know that it's all up to me, and also that I can never do what needs to be done, where does that leave me?
I'm not looking for sympathy. It's just a confusing place to be.
Yours truly,
Adam Cole
Give free cds to everyone at your shows and who knows: maybe they'll listen and it will get under their skin like it has yours. Don't think about money, success and recognition. Think about how to right a great song and then share it freely...if it's meant to fly, it will.
Jared Brown www.allegash.com or jadcanoe@hotmail.com ...check out allegash music on cdbaby! Good luck-be happy.
As Christian: Never give up on yourself,cause God never gives up on us.
Hi Derek no way can this be agreeable to me. There's an assumption that everyone measures success by money. However in the case cited the answer is appropriate based on that assumption and the description of his needs.
Was'nt it you who said that your aim was simply to have record shop and be of service to friends selling cds? Which my view is THAT was the success, everything else was a well earnt bonus[more success]. Again be reminded of the Biology "Proffessor" who broke down in tears mumbling " all he wanted to do was play the violin"
For me this is how my approach to this question is answered. I am "SOMEBODY", so SOMEBODY is going to HELP, STARTING with ME, which will attract its like, another SOMEBODY. [This is not being "punny" with words, but for real]. Though some would call this +ve thinking myself does'nt, none the less that woud be a useful direction.
These days most peoples only measurement for success they use is money and as a result ANY business is motivated by this at present commodity, MR Madoff tried to makeoff with money, did he get far? obviously to most people he's a success or was? not my view necessarilly, If he deliberately duped others HE SUCCEEDED, if he did not intend to get caught then he was'nt AS successful there.[for me Failure is a Fantasy, a song soon to be released].
So only success exists [tell your friend from me] Small ones OR large ones, nothing else. NOBODY DOES NOT EXIST AT NO TIME AT NO PLACE NOWHERE..
Yes language can be a beast but we have to learn to ride it like just LIKE SUCCESS however small it may be and if you dont see the small ones be lucky not to see the large because it may blind you, is this not what the "Papperatzi" feed on? on the the "successful"?
Could go on Derek "nuff" for now, The boat reminds me of one built by me, having no previous experience, how's that for a success, if you'd like a pic. let me know.
OZ
Nobody's gonna stop me from making music.If they help,they help!If not it's o.k.Music is my food and I believe in it.It's like breathing for me so I wo'nt wait for anybody to make some muse...The most important thing is to work seriously to make something valuable and interesting for me and then others!
P.S.Derek
"Merry Christmas" and best wishes for the coming "New Year"
Jerry Herrera
It is encouraging to be reminded that I must do what I must do. In many walks of life, I've discovered that more are willing to help after help is no longer needed. I'm grateful for the agents who have booked me around the world for 37 years - a payday to payday salary. Who can put me in touch with a million selling artist who will record my song entitled "I GOT MY EARS PIERCED IN HOUSTON" ?
I feel that that answer is definately encouraging. It means that my destiny is in my own hands. I personally don't want too many peoples hands on my baby anyway. The answer also keeps me grounded. I don't know about anyone else but sometimes I really do wish I would win the lotto, or I find a bunch of money, but at the end of the day I'm not going to be stagnet, waiting on that situation to fall in my lap.
I am a Christian...and the Bible says 'as a man thinketh, so is he...and 'according to your belief be it unto you.'
To say 'you won't' to an artist puts a bad perception in their mind..and it sometimes takes a while to get back to the 'I can do it' mindset.
Better words would be to say 'I found it challenging to get agents to...' But when you say 'You won't..or you can't, you destroy hope.
Me, I would not receive 'can't' or 'won't' because if it doesn't sounds like hope, it's not coming from God. ...and I can do ALL things thru Christ. I HAVE reached agents that have booked and still book me....and I wasn't making 5000 a month. God bless-TinGle
To me music comes as naturally as breathing. I would write music whether anyone else listened to it or not. Marketing is the hardest part of writing music. Hard work, persistence and luck still may not result in any financial measurement of success but I've been writing music for years because of internal motivations, not external. Gary A. Edwards www.edwardsmusicpublishing.com
Hi, I didn't read all the comments but I read Adam Cole's one, and that's where I am at too. If I want to write and record my music, and have work and be there for family, there is simply no time left at the end of the day to promote my music or be my own booking agent. So I am excited and frustrated all at the same time. Excited because of everything I learn by doing it myself and the opportunities that exist. Frustrated because a promotion and publicity campaign is a full time job, and I don't even enjoy doing it much. So I will write my music, record it best I can and put it up for the world to see. If they only knew where to look ...
That answer don`t discourages me.I learn that early in my Career .The Music business have changed a lot .It is more risky now a days .So people will not be running to invest in you and your Music ,untill you are sucessfull.
I'm undoubtedly the oldest person making a comment here (81.)
By anybody's standards, I've had a varied and successful musical career - as a player, entertainer, recording artist (8 albums on cdbaby,) educator and songwriter. I haven't gotten rich, but I feel that my biggest pleasure has been awareness and a constant need to challenge my imagination, which has in turn led to many fascinating musical experiences. My principal advice would be to try to be as imaginative and aware as possible. This leads to great experiences with other people, particularly musicians. Go for it! Phil Klein
It depends on the day. Sometimes I wake up and when I realize there isn't anyone listening, or anyone following my songs, or anyone purchasing cd's, or anyone helping me get a review, or anyone helping me book a gig, it can get discouraging to the point where you want to give up. But then you realize that if you do give up, all hope is lost. And that is folksinger suicide. So you keep on keepin' on. Sending more songs to Taxi. Getting more demos done. Writing new stuff. That is the only way things will happen. And then I realize that I am my own boss with my music and I realize I am lucky. So, in the end, I guess it depends on the day.
Derek,
You've clearly hit a truth. I'm really happy to be at a point in my life to say that I don't feel discouraged. I feel: 1) it's true that "no one is coming to save you" but that it's also true that 2) if you go looking for a real next step for help, that others will show up for you when you need them. That's if you've done everything you can first and that you're looking for something concrete that you yourself can't do.
The help and others showing up is a function of what you do and what you believe. No one is going to read your mind and come and take care of you. That's just the unfulfilled longings of a young child that didn't get that. Those longings are real for so many. Healing them is a different conversation.
Something few people have mentioned here (even with so many comments) is looking for ways to help others.
That's clearly been the key to your success Derek and I've seen it be the key to Tara Hunts (a social marketer pal who writes about this stuff a lot horsepigcow.com --see I just even linked to her to help her without her asking) and many others too.
We are all connected. As some friend I cannot recall once said to me "add value to the network and the network will add value to you."
"We are the ones we've been waiting for" is powerful but only when you believe that you have the power to do something. Of course, it's doing something that shows you you have power. Trying when you're not sure? That's faith for many.
Today Obama named Rick Warren to give the benediction at his inauguration. Among other things, it's a clear sign to queer Americans "No one is coming to save you."
You always have to go first. But then, eventually, everyone will come.
I'm a former law student who's a professional comic, solo performer and speaker. I've made it work. How can I help you?
-heather
It's funny that I should read this now. I just posted a somewhat similar bit on this on my own blog (click my name to read it if want).
...But I digress.
It was a number of years ago when I started to awaken to the fact that the music industry was changing.
That the big record label in the sky wasn't going to swoop me up and make me a recording artist.
At first this discouraged me horribly. It depressed me.
How was I going to become the big famous recording artist that I always dreamed of being?
Then I realized "Why without them of course".
What you don't know can surely hurt you. It is our weak spot, our guarded hiding fear that causes us to underestimate our true self worth. The moment we rely upon another for our successes we become highly vunerable to continued falure through the misinterpretation of the facts and false facts before us. Success is a state of mind not a bank balance. True art is a personal achievement with a purpose of enobelment. Anything less is a short lived contrivence manipulated for the unsuspecting masses. Musicians do not need managers, they need us!
For life on Earth without any music would be a sad place indeed.
Mykl Lozin a.mus.a vca & ayo alumni
Australian United Recording Artists
AURArecords
Discovering Lost Dreams
A friend of mine told me today that a top act in another country only sold 1400 CDs last year , with a top producer , and top management.
I feel it's unfair of the music business to blame it on illegal downloads.
If they put some interest into making more innovative music that
people would buy I feel they could be more successful.
There seems to be a formula that they don't like to deviate from
very much with new artists, song writing, etc.
In Will Ackerman style , we should produce ourselves .
I've decided to release all my previously recorded music before I make new music for a few months.
Of course I'm still creating new
works for later recording.
What exists now that didn't exist
in the 1980s when I first recorded
some of my music is a "chance."
Opportunity today to be heard on line and sell your music on Cd Baby
and on line vendors had not been invented.
Thanks for chance Derek, and that's more than I ever had before.
Finding a partner to help you with your career is not an unworthy goal. People who think they succeed all on their own with no help from anyone ever are fooling themselves. Some people have one fat cat daddy (Brian Epstein for the Beatles) and some have many, dozens, hundreds or thousands who like the ants removing one grain of sand at a time build a huge nest. If the CEO of GM had to be on the factory floor from 7am to 4pm making the vehicles, he wouldn't have much time or energy doing the things the CEO needs to do. So the premise that the singer/songwriter/roadie/booker/creater can do everthing all the time and become "successful" what ever that means, is pretty slim. Somewhere along the way, help will come in some form, even if it is the realization that you're playing for the love of it and all the rest is irrelevant.
Hi Derek!
I know that nobody will help me. I need somebody to help, otherwise I have to stop my work as piano teacher and as composer. So what I do? I'm creating my next CD.
Dmitri Kubyshkin.
to be honest? yes it is very discouraging.However I just have to keep refering to a scripture in proverbs:whatever a man thinketh,so is he.And I KNOW I'm a great musician/artist.so that motivates me.
You have to make it happen for yourself. The only place you will find success before work is in the dictionary. No one will believe in your dream more that you. There are two kinds of people those who wait for something to happen or those that make something happen. I believe in DIY. When you have worked hard to achieve a great level of success you will not just turn it over to anyone because you know what it took to reach that level. I stay in touch with my fans. I talk to them after each concert. I am doing a magazine and I include all of my fans responses in the magazine they wrote about my music. The fans love this. I am doing a concert this weekend with my group singing to about 800 people and they purchase tickets for this concert. Derek thank you so much
But that said, Derek's response is appropriate in so many ways. However, the manager that waited for LeAnn Rimes to be pulling in $5k a gig missed an opportunity. Manager's that can see the potential in an artist early on is the one that will have the greatest impact and most meaning to an artist. So, keep the fire, nurture your craft, believe in yourself and don't get bogged down in hypotheticals and issues you can't control. Write good songs, play and sing them well, be your best and plug determinedly along. Success in music as in life, to paraphrase Steve Fromholtz is "mostly attitude and timing." And remember, what goes around comes back around. Does the "cynical response" "light a fire" or "get me down?" Neither. It's irrelevant. But it's fun to comment on. Back to work.
When I excepted the fact that no one was going to help me is when I started to see progress. I stop wasting time trying to get help or trying to convince investors to believe in me. This decision made me focus more on what I am capable of doing and what I know should be done.
Encouraged or discouraged depends on the day, sometimes I feel like a nuclear reactor, other days I feel like an observer. 30+ years at this have taught me that ultimately all the responsibility is mine. But that responsibility includes creating something that other people find attractive and wish to be a part of...It might do us all good to remember; DIY does not necessarily mean Do it BY yourself.
Encouraging.
If you want to get things done right, you gotta do it yourself.
...however, I agree that you cannot do it ALONE per se. You do need peers and other artists that got your back, or a collective group of other artists to support you...
Bottom line. You can DO IT RIGHT NOW. Spend all the time you want on your music and perfect it, but when you are ready, you can set it free RIGHT NOW. Powerful.
Derek, as a hip hop artist that's an understatement.
I had to rely on myself so much I don't even think about it anymore it's just automatic. I use to be scared to hearing the word "NO" but now I understand how much I've learn from hearing NO!
Hearing NO taught me how to record and master music. Hearing NO is how I was able to start my own indie label. Hearing NO got my music placed in a couple
independent films. So hearing NO has actually been a blessing.
No matter what business you're in this will always hold true. People rather join in instead of start something up.
I am very sad because there is a total lack of beautiful music being produced.
Music was my special friend and, now I just find myself trying to rescue songs that are dooomed into forgoteness.
The only purpose of music was to uplift one's spirits, and saddly good music has become a thing of the past.
Right now all that matters is that bottom line $$, and the music is just a path to reach that bottom line, that only spells greed.
Computers are only adding to the problem, because we are money dependat, and if there is no monetary compensation to our inspiration,there is no incentive to seek inspiration.
Bottom Line:
We are victims of our own inventions
Encouraging because it frees you from expectations. It frees you to unleash your music in its purest most refined form if you wish. You have no one and NOTHING to answer to except...music!
You can sit around and make the greatest art in the world and then grump and groan how you're not gonna "work for free" or "give it away" via downloads etc.
Well, guess what? No one cares. So, why not give it away? You have a better chance to touch someone's life by setting it free.
...because, that's the real reason you got into making music to begin with...for pure, spiritual reasons...remember?
How about this: Give some away, have some for pay. You can have it BOTH ways. Yes, you can. So, be ENCOURAGED.
well being in a bluegrass band our backs are already against the wall working with a smaller fan base to start with,but hell i've moved walls before,ain't gonna even slow down much less Stop now; see ya at the TOP
So... what's new!?
That's the way it has always been.
It's an encouragement.
If I was making $5,000 a month I wouldnt want an agent.
But, that's just me. I don't want all the money... just enough to live on comfortably. How do you define success?
I think it's really really important to learn how to do as many of the jobs as possible by yourself before you start delegating... if you haven't tried being an agent, a publicist, a data-base manager, a webpage designer, an engineer, a promoter, presenter, producer or tour manager how could you assess the strengths and weaknesses of people you delegate these essential tasks to?
Presenting concerts taught me so much about publicity - also how difficult and arbitrary booking decisions can be. It made me appreciate the details, and notice them. It made it easy to sincerely compliment presenters who do it right. Made it much easier for me to understand and accept rejection when I was the person seeking the booking. There are a LOT of great people out there. NO isn't always NO - quite often it's "not now."
How can you assess whether or not your presenter or publicist is doing a good job if you have never done it yourself? You don't even know what questions to ask. Familiarity with the process allows you to gauge whether or not a gig flopped because the word didn't get out or because there was an ice storm and the home team was playing in the superbowl that night.
Until you've tried managing a tour, you don't fully appreciate all that's involved. If you do it yourself, you'll be appropriately grateful when someone competent agrees to help you with that task.
If you haven't tried booking yourself, you'll never appreciate everything an agent does. You also won't have that list of contacts that any agent needs to do his/her job. You also won't have a way of figuring out whether or not your press kit is useful and effective. You'll learn that an agent REALLY EARNS every cent.
Once you've tried these jobs... delegate out as many as you can afford to delegate. Get competent, educated sound engineers who have recorded music that you really like. Get website designers who have created pages that you really like. Hire people who really like what you do and understand what you do and pay them fairly.
If you've already mastered a lot of these skills, it's easy to train someone else to do them.
If you can't afford to hire someone all by yourself, join forces with some other musicians and share the expenses of, say, data entry. The more of this nuts-and-bolts stuff that you can contract out, the more time you have to practice, write and rehearse - things that tend to fall by the wayside when you have to do everything else, too.
That's my two cents. Good luck.
This is not news. Except that there ARE people who have helped me quite a lot all along the way - people who have supported me emotionally, who have bought my CD's, who have been loyal friends, who have loved me even when I'm unlovable, and because I have moved around a lot, it has been a wonderful blessing to find people willing to be part of a support network wherever I have gone. I'm not making scads of money selling my CD's. In fact I make very little at that, and what does come in goes right back into the account for the next production. But I'm making my living as a church worker and musician, and I'm doing what I love to do, and that is worth so much more!
Francyl
I don't think it's 100% accurate to say "Nobody is going to help you." If I took those words at face value I would feel discouraged and alone.
We don't create or manifest anything in a vacuum. We are supported and assisted in a myriad of ways by friends, family, strangers - the quick shuttle bus driver who finds us a gig, the local harp maker who lends us a gorgeous instrument we cannot afford to buy ... We can all add to this list and I believe the more we reciprocate the support we receive, the more it flows towards us.
Perhaps it is more accurate to say nobody is going to orchestrate my success for me. Because this is my life and this is my dream I wouldn't want it any other way..
Oona McOuat
I solely believe that for every vision there's prevision, I believe that my mindset determines what i shall have! i have done two previous cd's without people coming to invest, or having an agent put me on tour with anyone, It's all been a Faith walk for me, and it has worked and continues to do so. I love when my back is pressed up against the wall and all i have is my God givin talents and Boat-load of Faith! Something powerful always happens, I'll go some where for free and pickup five new jobs just for helping someone else out! Bottom line is I'm more successful now than the industry could ever make me! I do what i Love to do for a living, I answer to no one, but God and Myself and i sing when i want to and i sit down and rest with my family when i want to. There's always Prevision for the Vision, and it's not always money!! Sometimes it's a help that comes unexpected from angels on earth like Derek Sivers who always comes right on time with a encouraging word or networking just when i need it the MOST!!!
Love what you do, because that's what keeps you going first. If it's music so be it, but know that if you're making music to make money you're setting yourself up for disappointment. I've always fed off the feedback of my peers, like.....do they get it, their criticisms, their responses to our live performances, etc. because if they're feeling what I do and if I truly value their opinion then its a big motivating factor. So my focus isn't solely on money because that's no source of inspiration now is it?
ISHH
www.myspace.com/biggishh
It is all on you and try to find people like you to be band mates and delegate tasks to them. It helps the band grow closer and keeps communications clean and clear. Remember, what you sow you will eventually reap and sometimes it takes a while but it's all part of the game and you GOT to LOVE the GAME! Now go on and Rock your LIFE and Sing out your joy!
looks good but like all oversimplifications misses the point: the music business is chaotic and unpredictable and needs a lot of sensitivity in your approach (rather than just following oversimplified slogans). for sure in marketing, nobody's going to help u is fine, but for recording, i recommend "get a producer", "pay sessions to people who will do justice to your recording" etc - too many home-recordings with one-man-playing-all-the-instruments in this world already! know when DIY does it and when it doesn't. know when favours work and when they lower the quality of your work.
I've been on my own for 18 + years and things have really started going well in the past 5 finance wise. I NEVER wait for that big producer because he doesn't exist and if he did there would bwe alot of red tape involved to mak it worth it for him...The 2nd thing thing is that it's MUCH more valuable and sweet when you acheive
victories on your own terms...Maybe that's just me ?
Mike
http://www.myspace.com/mikegoudreauband
It's encouraging. With all the technology out there on the internet, it has never...NEVER been easier to market yourself and find your NICHE. Years ago bands had to tour for years to build up a fan base...playing for 3 people and then 10, and then 100 and then 7 years later, if they got better and kept at it, 1000 people and so on. Now, all you have to do is learn how to find your niche and utilize all the amazing technology that is out there and you can build a fan base by sitting at your computer. People can know your songs before they have ever bought your record or seen you live, sign up for your newsletter and blog, your fan club all with the click of a button. It's powerful to take your career into your own hands. And anybody who doesn't is just being lazy.
I pray to God and amazing things happen. He is the One who helps me with my music. I pray and whole songs come to me. Then I prayed and met a professional musician who arranged my music, recorded it, and made my first cd. By Your Blood available through cdbaby,com.
Currently I am waiting on God to show me the next step I am to take.
I am very enlightened by what ALL have posted here... We all want the help, we all NEED the help... but at the end of the day, we can only be accountable for ourselves...
Sad...maybe. True? More than likely...yes. And what do you do when life hands you a bunch of lemons?........(whisper...Make lemonade!)
anne feeney: you're so on the money - if you know what's involved in everything you are better equipped to delegate and know who's likely to do the best job - and you appreciate all the time and effort put in by others more, too.
I think people do help each other out a lot, so it's not really a question of 'no-one is going to help you' - it's just 'no-one is going to do it for you'
people are very generous in lots of small ways - and it's important to appreciate them, even if it's as simple as someone giving you a ride to a gig when your car breaks down! personally, I don't want somebody to ask me sign on the bottom line & leave it all to them... I'd much rather find people who want to work WITH me.
You hit the spot again. And this is not only true for musicians, but everybody and every enterprise.
Merry Christmas Derek;
Peter
If you wait around for someone to help without helping yourself, you'll be waiting forever.
Get out and do it, then when you're successful, you are in a much better negotiating position....but will you need 'em then anyway?!
Dang I'm reply #463?
I think most artists want the "dream" - that the music business is not a busy but a place where million dollar record deals and publishing deals are given out to artists solely based on their talent - not hard work.
I'm sure most artists would find that reply discouraging but being a savvy businesswoman, I find it encouraging.
Anyone smart knows they create their own destiny.
If only life was so simple that you always get what you want.
There will always be for some that every thing just happens, in the right place at the right time, and most umportant of all knowing the right people.
So yes it is always down to you,and wouldn't it be nice if all was because of actual talent and abilty.
Derek you hit the nail on the head. Nobody is going to help you. And why should they? It is up to you as a musician to make your own way. You have to carve your own nitch in this business. My band, Darron Moore and The 14th Floor had to do that. I make a living booking my own shows, producing my own albums, and paying my own band. I am totally self employed and make my living performing from the gigs I book. It's tough. It's hard. It's diffulcut. But it's FUN!!! I have to come up with inovative ways to get noticed and of course, my show has to be top notch.
We have a dynamic stage show and have managed to book an average of 130-150 gigs a year. And we sell our CDs, T-Shirts, and other merchandise at our shows. We perform any place Las Vegas Style R&B is appreciated...and sometimes NOT! But I make it happen. I have to. My band has to. We continue to stay on top...On the 14th Floor!
Peace.
Come up to the 14th Floor.
Darron Moore and The 14th Floor
Detroit's Hottest Las Vegas R&B Band.
Also performing the Luther Vandross Tribute Show.
The flip side of expecting no one to help you is knowing you won't be blaming anyone for anything that goes wrong. Because one of the worse feelings is thinking someone did you wrong, or someone owes you something. No? It's a beautiful existence, not feeling deprived by someone else.
The best part of not expecting any help is being able to achieve something anyway. Doesn't happen every time, but when it does, it's nice.
Nah, not discouraged. Thanks for today's shot of reality.
i have really enjoyed reading these posts as they've continued to come in all day. my sincere thanks to you all for contributing and adding your thoughts and experience!
True, no Santa is coming with dollars in a wheelbarrow willing to spend it on you, unless they have a certainty it will produce at least two other wheelbarrows in return. In the music business as well as in life in general, waiting for someone to solve all your problems magically is the highway to failure.
But it's not true no one can help you, and to a certain extent, you contradict yourself Derek, as you repeatedly said musicians should not hesitate to bank on the good will, the enthusiasm and the efficiency of their fans, street teams, and other people willing to help you, just because they think you're a good musician and you deserve better.
OK, if your target is to make it BIG, I mean BIG, it's probably not enough. But each journey starts with a first step, doesn't it?
Alec Guinness said "Failure has a thousand explanations. Success doesn't need one."
The answer could be encouraging, but we're getting used to want everything now.
Anyway it's true that it's nice to believe that it's all up to you, but you have to believe extremely strongly in yourself and not everyone can (and personally I really don't know if I can...).
I always admired the (I call) "American determination": you can if you really want (and Derek, you're a man who made it out!), but in Southern Europe maybe we're not so strong, or just we are culturally different, so we tend to say "I know I can, but SOMEONE doesn't want it..." and we complaint...
I'm trying to follow your suggestions, but it's often hard and there are many very frustrating days...
One more thing: when you ask a suggestion you have to be ready to receive something you don't want... but those are the rules of the game: world is not perfect and it's not what we want it to be!
It's always good to get a helping hand in life but there's about facing trials alone that inspire me and bring the best out of me.
So nobody's gonna help me? Great! That just makes me more excited about the journey as well as the destination!
Respect Your Legacy!
All my life, I have been doing things by myself. Nobody has ever really helped me with anything and I am not bitter about that because I never expected it.
My mother spent most of her life until the recent handful of years as a single parent on the dole (for US readers that's slang for unemployment benefits).
Having said that, she recently "loaned" me a ton of money to fund my Sound on Sound ads for my new mastering business. Which I guess is help to some extent. But it's the only help I can ever remember.
In school, when it was time to team up with a bunch of people to do a task, I did it by myself... in half the time it took anybody else, infact. When asked why, I just said "it's quicker". Besides which I was always a freak of a loner, so nobody would pick me anyway.
My point is I learnt that doing things by myself is actually more efficient, more controlled, easier and quicker than expecting help. (No masturbation jokes, please!) 8-)
Funny. Now I reach a point in my life where there are no doors, never mind open ones, the help isn't there anyway.
In answer to your question, Derek, if I had asked you about investors, agents, etc and you told me there was little chance of that, it would be exactly what I expected to hear. If you said different, I'd think you were BSing me, so...
It's a sign of your honesty and candour. And that's encoraging, because at least ONE person out there is NOT a BS-talking Simon Cowell.
If nobody's gonna help me, I couldn't be happier. It means that when (if) I get when I'm going, I can receive my award with mild pride. My award speech will be "I'd like to thank... uh, there's nobody to thank, because I did this all by myself". 8-)
AJT
i think i know both sides of the story.
i've been trough phases, in which being alone encouraged me, and i also know how it feels when that puts me down.
but i think i'm closer to myself when being on my own gives me power, instead of taking it from myself...
cheers,
schmittke
Great post Derek.
Wow! $500 000 worth of debt stress on your back before you see profit or a large part of your entire business, gone for life.
Seems like a good way to ruin your career before you even start!
You will be helped when you first help yourself.
Big Daddy ain't gonna hold your hand and mama ain't gonna come fix it all... ;-)
The Internet has radically changed the entire game. You can use it to create your own success.
Anyway, if someone helped you they would only do it if they could help themselves, to a bit of your dough.
When you reach a level of success you can then either negotiate better deals or avoid deals altogether.
Artists should start small and build value in their markets for the long run.
Forget the old "Industry" way of doing things and build your own music business structures.
Think of building income from the start, however small it may be at first, build automated income, then expand as your income grows.
Don't be a hare, think tortoise.
if that would discourage me, i must have finished playing in a band for a long time. especially in switzerland there is nobody helping musicians but if you really like to make music and have a lot of fun with it there is no reason not to do so.
Not discouraging at all, but not a good post, void of ideas. If you negate, you have to offer encouraging words as well, options. If you're a musician you know that nearly everything is on your own. But your success comes through other people too, networking, working with other musicians, sharing.
Music is a business, you, and the people around have to make money from it, otherwise your music is just a hobby. Even if is the best song ever.
There will be people who will help, but probably expecting something in return.
I find that very encouraging. Thanks Derek!
))
Cheers
Mark
Well, Derek,
although it's a little sad, too, nearly nobody earns the big money anymore by music sales, so nobody will be ready to help you in your career as an artist! I always think it helpful when we are honest in front of others: so they will know they have to make it all alone to the top! (although some friends really might be of some help and I think those friends who are ready to help in this or just another way always will exist if you are no real bad guy at heart yourself!)
Mark
I will settle for 5 grand a YEAR from gigging. Once individuals or corporations start owning my dream, then it would all be pointless. I will be quite pleased to be a much better known local artist than I am at present, and touring nationally/internationally might be a nice once or twice in a lifetime thing. I realized the DIY necessity a few years back and now that I am in good health, this reality encourages me. Those who want it done for them are probably making lame music.
It is really helpful for young musicians to take the time to achieve trade training (carpenter, culinary arts, electrician, etc...) or go to university with a profession in mind. This is very stabilizing. During lean times, they will be able to pay their bills and look after their families. A gifted musician with the ability to obtain secure, well paid employment outside of the very challenging music industry is effective, empowering and wise.
Great post, Derek! I'm amazed at the quality of the responses to it; obviously you've tapped into a major need--a place where the independent musician can ask questions and at least hope to get useful replies. What I'm seeing from the responses is that everyone is having to fumble their way along.
One part of the original question referred to "payola." I'd like to see more information about advertising; what works to actually get air time for your music. "Payola" is illegal, but as I've been trying to learn the protocols for getting airtime on our local medias, I can certainly understand the forces that stimulate someone to try this. We can pay for "regular" ad spots (or "underwriting" on public radio), but with music, the best "ad" is the actual product, yet we're not allowed to pay for the time to play our song. Go figure. When I've asked the question directly to a radio announcer, I've gotten a big fat shrug.
I know how to put together a media kit, but as ours is a holiday cd and the few reviews we've had didn't come out until just right before this holiday season, I've been going nuts trying to figure out how to get at least some local air time in enough time to generate some sales.
This is totally what motivates me. My philosophy is if you are not willing to invest in yourself, then why should anybody else?!
Unfortunately, music schools and teachers (especially in the classical music world where I live) fill students heads with the idea that they can be soloists and land record deals (which don't exist).
This is especially prevalent in the world of string players and pianists who overwhelmingly teach their students to be soloists.
That's why the most Symphony Orchestra string players rank among the lowest job satisfaction of any job in the USA. They were taught all along that they could be soloists when the reality is: (1) most of them cannot, (2) none of them can be unless they make it happen for themselves.
My songs do not sell as well as I wanted but sell and grow from year to year.
My pages on the net does not still have so many visits in the net as I wanted but still have visits
and grow from year to year.
Imagine if I had agents and investors but pay to sell what is mine. My Work.
Where I spent mountains of time and money.
So: No agent. No investor. No one’s going to help me until im already successful.
So: When I achieve success excuse me agents and investors but, after do not contact me.
My success is not based in agents and investors but in my work.
So Musicians remain sober,do not give your work for nothing,
make the agents and investors work if they want to make money.
A great 2009 for all Musicians a for you too Derek Sivers
I realised this a few years ago. It was one of the most empowering points of my life.
The cold hard fact is that nothing gets sold without marketing and promotion. If you have the time and the money and you're under 30 years of age YOU CAN DO IT!
Any questions?
I don't even know where ot find an agent. I have a CD but no band, no original songs and no agent.
I truly need help!
"Real" life change came for me ONLY after I realized nobody was going to help me. That I had to "be" the change I wanted to see. It was a long process but totally worth it.
For me personally, knowing nobody was or could help me motivated me.
Hi, realiized the answer to "whether encouraging" or not was not mentioned in my previous comment.
Yes it was, because starting or not with oneself is the causer to subsequent or consequent results. The responsibility is yours first and last.
Are you kidding me? On top of not helping me, the powers that be have been keeping me off of local radio for years; I've done nothing but filter money UP to performing rights societies; ASCAP and BMI are hitting up clubs in my area to pay them for live music which puts live music at their clubs in jeopardy; I think it's healthy and realistic to assume no one is going to help you, and on top of that, why would you want to even get involved in a music business that gives us what passes for music these days? Cynical, you bet. Do it yourself.
It's both! I agree that we wait around too much hoping that something big and magical comes along for us. I also like to take my own road on things and know that it's all up to me because there's very few people you can depend on....but at the same time after years of clawing your way through it sure would be nice for an extra push from someone with big money or connections!
With the advent of online social networking & the like, I think it is very much up to the individual to "get themselves out there". I think having a proactive approach is much healthier than sitting back & waiting for that big deal or whatever else..... Besides which, if you're motivated, I think it's possible to achieve a lot more yourself than handing over your power to a label (particularly smaller labels) to promote you & your music... Have a good Xmas all & onwards & upwards for 2009!
Michael.
PS Derek, you rock
The prospect of no help can be a damper or a catalyst. We are all both our own worst enemy and greatest ally. Admittedly fear, insecurity and depression can at times become these seemingly insurmountable obstacles, when it seems as though you will never have what you want. However at some point we have to shake ourselves gently by the shoulders and put into action the old adage "when the going gets tough, the tough get going."
No, we are not all self-starters by nature; some of us only act when we're backed into a corner. But even then, you can have a game plan ready if you're willing to dream a little. Hope, enthusiasm and passion can be such powerful motivators -- they are actually magnets toward success!
It's true that reaching beyond your current grasp and circumstances will not guarantee you shining results or huge returns. Conversely, failing to act or visualize anything more than what you are and have now absolutely does condemn you to stagnation and ultimately failure.
Whenever you find yourself feeling boxed in without a way out, cut yourself a mental skylight, gaze upward and outward, and let the creative juices start flowing...
I'm astonished at the insights and wisdom left here! Not to mention the support... somebody writing about God and prayers and it's all so tied to spirituality. Also, the amazingly different backgrounds. I even discovered America's Most Popular Black Yodeler by clicking on one of these replies!!
I'm chiming in a second time to let people know something about myself. I'm in my early fifties and playing out now. It took many years for me to develop the confidence to become a solo performer (I sometimes play five string banjo in a bluegrass band). I have a CD out now and I'm gigging with some regularity. I have doubts on occasion but something always comes along to refocus my vision. It's things like this thread that continually reinforce the idea that I made the right decision to follow the musical path. I'm preparing to retire from my day job (Captain of Detectives in a Rhode Island police department) and live out the rest of my life playing, writing and singing my music. I read somewhere that we performers don't get paid for performing. We get paid for traveling to the gig, setting up and breaking down. We play for free. With that mind set, how can we fail? And of course, if God is for us who can be against us?
Success to me as a musician is to write and record the music that moves me. I'm happy with that. I'll never sell a zillion cds... but, that's not what it's about for me. I just like to be an artist.
e
It comes at just the right time - OK! I'll take the challenge!
If you like what you do that's 1/2 the battle. If you can create something from nothing and you are proud of that, you don't need help. Yes support is great but never push always pull.
Well, hearing someone actually say, "Nobody's going to help you..." can be discouraging, but frankly I don't think it's true. It's just that it's probably not in the form of an agent or an investor. However, help is available from friends and family and fans who already dig your stuff. It's amazing how enthusiastically someone will be if you just ask them to tell 10 people they know about your music. I sent an email to my next door neighbor, a professor at a local university, asking for that kind of help, and within minutes he ordered one of my CDs and emailed the entire campus to check out my music. The thing is, nobody's going to help you take initiative to help yourself - and sometimes the initiative is asking for help from your friends, family and fans.
To be completely on your own sounds good. Just imagine, no more discussions with A&Rs, Marketing Managers, Lawyers, Controlers... It's definitely worth trying. Merry Christmas to you all.
Aside from being a musician I'm a graphic designer. We always learned in school about how because of the economy and because of the talent in the world it is incredibly hard to get ahead and stand out. All this means is that you have to work as hard as you can to be great. The same applies to music.
Though no one may help, that can be a great thing. For decades in music the only way to get ahead was to know someone, or to fit what was marketable at the time. Today it is much more possible for a person to do exactly what they want without having to conform to standards of what is already out. For example, there are a lot more artists around now than ever that are hard to put into a genre. The boundaries are not nearly as strong as they used to be. It's a great time for music when someone who just writes songs in their bedroom can become just as appreciated as someone who plays stadiums.
Derek Great Read! Makes you think. For me personally, it is very encouraging to create my own fame, but it is also very scary. I mean very scary, knowing that your success comes from you. It's tough but i guess you have to just keep trying to get yourself out there until people start knowing who you are...
Absolutely, it would encourage me to send out another email, comment on someones myspace page or even play that little to no money gig just for the exposure. Most importantly, music is fun! If it isn't workin' for ya, pick up a banjo or buy an album. If that is no solution, your best bet is to go to the beach.
I appreciate any help I receive, but try not to count on it. I'm happy if I can be of any help, though. Everyone needs help in life now and then, but to rely on it doesn't seem professional to me. If you're a pro, you work it out.
I've always gone it on my own. I probably could've taken a deal, here and there, but I always wanted total artistic freedom plus control of where my promotional dollars are spent. It's left me dirt poor, but I've built a legacy that I believe will last after I'm gone.
Thanks to a grave error by one of the world's leading retailers - I've come into some money for once, and in light of the economic crisis I've sunk every penny into pressings and advertising.
When the going gets tough...
I have to add something to my previous posting:
Yes, it can be hard to make a living as an artist. But the real trap is to feel inferior when success is not really happening.
Today I came across a writing of Wayne Dyer in his Book "Change you thoughts, change your life" about Lao Tzu.
I will quote a little passage:
"Let go of evaluating yourself on the basis of how much you've accumulated and what is in your financial portfolio. Stop putting a dollar value on all that you can have and do. Let go of your need to get a "good deal" and choose instead to be of sharing. You'll be happily surprised by how nice it feels to simply change your belief that you're only successful if you're making money.
The less you focus on making a profit - instead shifting your energy to living your purpose in harmony with everyone else-the more money will flow to you and the more opportunities for generosity will be available to you.
The world of institutional pressures is built on an endless list of human do's and don'ts. Lao Tzu advocates that you discover your heart's true desire, all while remembering that no one else can tell you what it is.
Post the followingaffirmation for your constant attention:
I am moral, profitable, and a genius extraordinaire, regardless of what any institutional transcript or bank statement says.
Repeat this mantra until it becomes your way of being."
-----
I hope this is encouraging and helpful;
Peter
As someone who's been on a major label, I've seen both sides. Business people are not interested in artist development. Truth is, they don't know your audience better than you anyway. Our band was more successful before we signed. The label didn't know how to market us and didn't ship promotional materials in time to actually promote. We lost our following, got dropped and went bankrupt. If your band is successful enough to get courted by the majors, you probably don't need them. Let them buy you dinner at the finest restaurants but be wary of the dream they're selling.
If no one will help ME, then they probably won't help anybody else... so that's great. The field is level, well, except for everyone out there that has $$ already. Mom & Dad will often invest in Kids...
I don't think I ever realistically expected to be "discovered" or for any outside help. I also think there have been periods where I purposely ignored all the seeming impossibilities and discouraging odds against making a living doing the music that I love. This brand of forced optimism/ignorance had developed in time into outstanding tenacity and commitment.
Derek posed a thoughtful question but I think my answer is a little zen: I am totally on my own totally dependant on others. My role is to be an artist - a leader, a communicator of a vision, a transporter. All these attributes require constant calibration and flexibility to stay in touch with the world around me. All the support I receive (5600 cd sales this year at live shows) is thanks to communicating something attractive. I'm certain that if a booking agent, manager or lawyer truly becomes neccesary the same communication will garner the right support.
I've been gigging over 30 years locally. People help you if there's money in it. Since there's no money in my music, I'm content to be a medium fish in small pond and be grateful I get to play at all. Success is how you define it. Also, making money for others means less musical freedom.
yup Derek you are so right,
I could get jealous of the poeple in my own field and other musuical fields who ahve made a sucess for themselves and i could mumble that "I am a better musician than him/her." That way only leads to misery and unfulfilled potential and dreams.
I like living on my wits and over the past few years I have become bold as brass and will promote myself at any opportunity.
I make sure that when I talk top promoters they understand me and they can pick up my passion. That I sound like I know what I am on about and I know my music has value.
I think if you get to that stage and you actually are good poeople will take notice of you eventually.
Here's to initiative
Lorcán
i am 50 & i still perform in clubs & dive bars,i love to play,i love music.i have worked with the best in the game & the worst & i have lerned from them both,dont get in for the doe get in for the love.i just finished my 4th c.d. i do my own promo with the help of c.d.baby.all i do is music,i have no money....do i want $$$$$$ yes!the music bizz says im over the hill,i do not agree.i have a song on my new c.d.(swamp man) called bar-star,its about cats that only want to play in bars & we need those cats too but thats not me,im part of a c.d. that was just nomanated for a grammy for best blues album 2008 to me thats BIG! & i do my own cd's,it would be kool to make $ but love what you do.check out my muzik on cd baby (tebo) thank you*
It does not bother me. I would rather do more myself and get an 1/8 from someone else if possible. I've always had to work hard for what I wanted. With help I successfully paid for my first cd. I had help in that the cost to get the cd done was less because people wanted to work with me. My part of the bargin came first then if they wanted to give that was wonderfull!!!! Years earlier in my life I tried out for the marching band I worked the whole summer on turns, spins, and throws. None of my friends saw me from June - September of that year. I am proud to say that my attitude made me understand so much in this business of life. I just love the feeling after the goal has been meet.
I know Derek hit the bulls eye with his statement. Anyone communicating reality to the music industry/artist/bands should find it very encouraging. The first reality is there are thousands of artist/bands in the world that are very good at what they do, but, as good as they are, do they really know/have what it takes to become a SUCCESSFUL? I am constantly amazed at how many artist cannot tell me how many fans they have & more importantly how many "true blue fans" they have. (NOTE: Having 5,000 friends on My Space does not mean you have 5,000 TBF) TBF being those that will attend their shows regularly & spend their hard earned money on an artist's merchandise & spread the word amongst their family/friends about you & your music. TBF are those that connect with your music in which you create moments for them to remember forever.
Before we take on a new client, we make sure they know we expect them & the band to all make a consistent 100 + % contribution to their own success. If any member of the group will not do this, then they need to be replaced regardless of how great a musician they are, for, being independent means this is a team effort & the rewards are shared by the team. TBF will spend on average $100 / year on your merchandise, etc. To reach the $500,000 in gross revenues means you need at least 5,000 TBF. The more TBF you have the more bookings you will get....most club owners would like for a artist to show up with at min. of 75-100 fans. Imagine how many venues/booking agents would be calling you if you show up with 200-500 fans at each gig? You want to entertain your fans; make new fans, create moments for them; sell lots of drinks for the club. Bottom line everyone is in the business to "MAKE MONEY".
That information encourages me because you're not telling me "what I want to hear", you're telling me the truth as you see it.
For a start, that's refreshing. It's too easy to tell people what they want to hear and walk off leaving them deluded and waiting for that special break.
I think it is encouraging from a reality perspective and discouraging to a degree when you realize you not only need to become a skilled songwriter and performer but you have to devote probably more time toward becoming your own manager/booking agent/publicist in the early stages
For me, I never expected help and when it has materialized I'm always grateful in a deer-in-the-headlights kind of way.
The tough part (for me) is balancing the "art" with the "business". You need a lot of both if you want to be taken seriously. It's tough because they are both full time jobs and the trick is not to get so sucked into the business that you forget to innovate in your art. The art is the one thing only you can do.
So, to answer the question it neither encourages or discourages me - it's just the way things go.
That encourages me to strive to do better and to take more time in preparation of my goals. We all have choices in life and I wouldn’t put my passion for music or my personal destiny in any ones hands but my own. If you work hard networking and promoting then things will fall into place, but to put your fate in someone else to make you to successful then you’re in the wrong business.
“Excellence means asking more of yourself than others”
http://www.myspace.com/jbirdproductionz
“Nobody's going to help you. Does that encourage you or discourage you?”
To be honest, I'm very encouraged yet have been discouraged. It seems to me most musicians I've worked with in this business were living in a dream world and thought a record contract would appear in front of them without them working to obtain it.
I've been writing songs (lyrics) and creating my own music for over 30 years. I've had 16 bands within that time line, most lasted only a few months, but a few lasted several years, STILL we didn't get where we wanted to be. So I went solo and still didn't get the satisfaction I was seeking.That DIDN'T stop me.
Nowadays, I've temporarily switched gears and I'm trying to manage a very talented female singer/songwriter who is also unsigned.
Being discouraged time and time again has made me work harder to find the solution in making my dreams come true by helping others have their own dreams come true.
Even though one band I founded in the mid 1990s were lucky enough to tour with (as the opening band) for major known bands and solo artists time and time again, that band being unsigned hurt us when the excitement ended, but at the same time gave ME the willpower to forge onward as an unsigned solo artist.
If you don't believe in yourself or in your music, and aren't willing to work hard, then this is NOT the business for you.
I will give you the most honest answer of all. Yes, I love help.. I will take help wherever I can get it... But I also need self reliance. A healthy balance between asking for the right amount of help from the right people, and doing things yourself will get you very far.
Hi Derek--I love these articles. To me, when I hear that, it discourages me. But that's why I read your articles--because you think in a way that is different from me and I need to change my mindset. I need to internalize this kind of viewpoint. Loved the villain article too. It cracked me up because I'm always worried that people don't "like" me. But just accepting that is very liberating.
I've seen both sides of the business, unfortunately I was spoiled from the beginning.. I was signed to a major recording deal in- get this- 1979. I was just a kid song writer who got lucky through my associations with a top notch producer and a great demo! We had one top 20 hit out of a 3 album deal, and that was it! It was a great ride although a short one, Then I spent the next ten years chasing record deals like some kind of addict. With no success! Talk about a big let down! But I was waiting for some one to give me another deal.. Didn't happen, and all I could do was feel sorry for my self until a couple of friends kept bugging me to just do it my self.. I've learned a lot since then and am constantly learning more. It's a lot of work, but it's MY JOB and I love what I do. There is no short cut! There are very few majors going to hand out $$ to even fewer bands, so forget about it and start making music! Once you're successful of course everybody wants you, but at least then you'll know what you're capable of on your own, and you won't easily settle for any old crappy record deal!
I'd say there's a difference between finding help and finding a savior. NO ONE is going to save you or do the work for you. But you can find good help: a voice coach, a songwriting teacher, a good conference, a consultant, fans as investors and cheerleaders, a great band to back you up, a supportive spouse who believes in you and a good shoulder to cry on when you get overwhelmed or discouraged--so you can hop back on the bus of being you OWN savior.
To that end, where have you written about how to get more attention online? I'd like to read your thoughts/advice. See? Good help is around us : )
Another prod from Derek to make us all stop and take stock of what we're doing, how we're doing it and why. The statement "Nobody’s going to help you. It’s all up to you." doesn't discourage me. But then again, I don't believe it. Go back over all of Dereks advice (it's all still here) and then just change the statement to, "Nobody's going to do it for you. It's all up to you"
Great advice Derek. I am over my self-pity of "nobody helping me, and have taken measures to create my own path. With so many resources available on the internet, doing it all is possible. I've also noticed that the more people you have working for you, more time is spend managing those people OR fixing what they should have done. So, believe in yourself and go for it! You will respect yourself and your work in the long-run.
www.mantramom.com
I already know that no one is going to help me, unless I pay them to, and even then it's hit-or-miss :D
I'm glad to help myself, but what I want to know is this: will anyone be willing to teach me so I can help myself? I think the answer is mostly no, due partly to unwillingness and partly to inability. If you had $500,000 to spend, would you even know what best to do with it? I suppose if you're a master marketer, savvy businessperson, PR giant, HTML/flash wizard, etc., etc., on top of being a talented musician, you might be OK.
But I must be very lucky, because I've already met quite a few people along my path in music who have really helped me. The help has come mostly in the form of introductions, connections, opportunities and education - all very valuable things, and all because those who helped believed in me. From there is was up to me to make the most of it. So keep in mind that, while help might not come in the form of showers of money, or bigtime clout, there may be opportunities.
Apart from a literal handful of sources, most of the information I've seen for musicians is useless. Most of the people making money in music online are people peddling products or advice to aspiring musicians! Things are changing so fast at major labels/publishing, that there are no experts, only people clinging to their jobs, scared to make a mistake. On top of that, many people have decided that the product of music is not worth paying for.
Another way to put it is: this is going to be really hard, and most who attempt will fail. Yes, including you.
I still think it is most accurate to say that nobody is going to help you UNTIL you help yourself. Once you've shown that you're viable, there will be many people lining up to "help" you. If you're lucky, one or more of them might actually do so. Nobody can do everything on their own. Even the Beatles had Brian Epstein and Sir George Martin to help them. If you're good, if you work hard, and if you inspire others, help will come.
To be very honest, it sucks to know that people will not help you and some will also try to screw you up!
So, you don't have helpers and watch out for the obstacle makers!
But here's the deal: Network! The more people you meet and know, the bigger the chance you have to find someone that at least supports your "mission". 70% of what an independent musician needs is support the other 30% is MONEY!!!
Find people who can support your dreams, that would make a phone call for you, for free. Find people who know the big dogs, and make sure the big dogs know you exist. Make sure you fight for your career too!
This way the big dogs will think twice before denying your projects.
Make sure you put all your projects on paper (actually go green, put it on pen-drive). Call everybody that matters, and ask to send it to them. Increase your chances!
Doing this, in 2008, I was able to increase my network up to a point that I hired with investor's money people that work only for the big ones. Unfortunately, I failed 50% of my business. But guess what, it worked! My network gave me investors, it gave me lawyers, it gave me agents and it gave me confidence mixed with experience and knowledge.
So if you get discouraged, find another career.
If you get mad, learn from it, and promise yourself to make it happen, because if someone like me does it. Anybody can!
Well, Derek, I hope I answered. And I also hope I helped.
Thanks for the opportunity.
I'm encouraged and inspired by the fact that no one is going to help me, sometimes, however, I feel that I need a bulldozer to push those folks out of the way so I can get the job done! ; )
I don't know. Frankly, I'm pretty tired of hearing the "it's up to you, only you can help you, no one else cares, blah blah blah" mantra. At some point I think we need to help each other, and this mania for individualism and self-promotion, everyone running around yelling "look at me!!!!!" got old a long time ago. I'm a musician, not a salesman (I'm literally not good at it), and if that means I don't sell as much of my music, so be it.
So yeah--another "do it yourself, there's no help for or interest in you" post is pretty discouraging, frankly. Reading these comments it sounds like I'm alone in that feeling, but I hope (and suspect) not.
Here's my coolest find....in not caring what people think or "needing" help. I have found more help, amazing experiences, prosperity and ideas to achieve more. So these words don't really discourage or encourage me. I think it's important to be open to help but not think you need it. There isn't really anything you can't achieve. When things start lining up, the help is essential to maintaining and becomes the next logical step.
Focused it makes me and raises the need for precise details, realistic goals and hours, who does what, how much is each task costing and taking. Delegating, R&D, pricing, getting quotes, asking for help and pkg deals. Forshadowing and stepping out the box to perspectasize!! ChAnGeR Productions is my hiphop/urban music company handling two artists online and off endeavors and I'm busy trying to regulate and prioritize the goal foodchain!
I think it's only PRAGMATIC to assume that "no one will help" because people only want to help self-starters - people who seem to be on a winning path. Why should anyone believe in you more - and invest more in your career - than you are willing to do?
Also, why sit around and wait for some magic genie to come along and transform your career? Why put your fate in the hands of others - when you could be putting your time, energy and TALENT into your career and gaining some control over your own destiny?
I feel discouraged. My group is so non-traditional, not to mention large, that if someone doesn't eventually help us at least a little, the world will be forever deprived of a totally cool musical experience. What's particularly difficult is that the guy who writes all our music and I guess is the leader, seems so not motivated to do his homework in the department of marketing himself, that we haven't played a gig in months, and we haven't ever been paid decently.....and I'm talking about a group of all professional musicians. I have tried to encourage him to take steps to help the world know about us, but you can lead a horse to water and not make him drink....
hereing that honesty of knowing no one is goingto help me is as real as it gets.But it don't discourage me I exspect it to be so.So Imust try harder todo all I can do for myself.I am very gracious for the insight that I get from you Mr.Sivers.And,hope for the best,but keep trying and getting better.$500.000 whoooo thats alot, maybe I hopefuly will sale one of my songs toa big artist or lable kick in gear.I,m working on putting band together as we speak.
Not only will no-one help you; people will discourage you by making you sell tickets to play their venues even though you are providing the people to earn them business. Some people will dislike your music and tell you about it (probably hurt your feelings). Band-members will quit the band as soon as you are ready to take band pictures, get into the recording studio, or order your first printing of cd's. You will play at venues in front of 3 people that may or may not appreciate the music you have to offer. Your boss will tell you "No, you can't have Friday off to drive to San Francisco to play with your band."
The obstacles in the business of music are some of the toughest in the world. However, if you love writing, playing, and/or performing and you don't mind dealing with a lot of rejection and failure...you can do it! Wiki some of your favorite artists. Most of them took YEARS to break into mainstream radio and venue gigs where they actually got to play for a living (much less a comfortable living). If you can't handle working a full time job, writing, promoting, performing, and sleeping very little so you can get it all done...you may want to get a college degree (or another one) because that will be an easier path to success than the path of a professional musician.
It's both encouraging and discouraging to hear "it's all up to you." On the one hand, it means anything's possible. On the other hand, it means you have to do all the work to make it happen. There are certain things you just have to do to get booked or get press or get radio play or whatever it is. You can do those things in an interesting and creative way, but they still have to get done. And when ALL of that work is on one person, or even four or five people, it is very daunting. That's where the discouragement comes in.
It's very exciting to start a music career, and it's also fun for people to discover a new artist, so you get an encouragement loop going at the beginning that makes it all worth it. It's when you've been working really hard for a long time already that it gets discouraging and frustrating to keep hearing that it's all up to you.
Yeah man,
Interesting subject.
When I decided to make my first record,
I not only thought people would listen,
but I really thought ''someone'' would pay me for my ''talents'' . . . ha, ha, what a fantasy that was!
I payed my ''friend'' who played with a famous band $10,000 total to get ''in''!
I had a publicist write a review,
and he supposedly had an in at Groove addicts.
After 2 albums and 20 t.v. commercial cues, I realize how on my own I really am.
Making music actually drove most of my friends away, my girlfriend left me,
no one wanted to listen, and I ended up all alone and miserable!
Bon Scott said it best: ''It's a long way to the top if you wanna rock n' roll''
L A M M Y
I think it is a perfect example of how pathetic and clueless the music industry is, and part of the reason why every major label is crashing and burning. it used to be that the people who worked in music loved music and wanted to discover the great stuff and bring it to the masses. But, as a fellow musician wrote above, the good old days are over.
As for encouraging vs discouraging, I think that question is irrelevant to a real musician. If it is discouraging, you are not a musician. Being a musician is kind of like being gay, it is who you are no matter where you live, what your job is, who you vote for or what clothes you wear. The fact that no one is going to help you and that the people who work in the music biz and who's job it is to find great new music don't know the difference between Regina Spektor and Ashley Simpson, (and secretly, they would prefer to find twenty more Ashley Simpsons than find anyone with true genius) is not going to discourage anyone who loves loves loves writing and performing music and always has since early childhood. It only makes the music world that much more disappointing. However, I have to say, I have had a lot of help from a lot of people who believe in me, and as that might help me make money and further my career along, it sure hasn't altered the fact that I am a musician and always will be.
Correct 99% of bands will never get the help they need. Honestly its what I use to motivate my band.
Derek,
I also find this encouraging, but I don't actually think "no one will help us" is the right way to say it. I think we have to take control of our careers in our own hands, and by networking with sincerity, we meet fans of music who will help us.
Examples: John Mayer sold out the Blind Pig in Ann Arbor in 2001 without radio play then. Matt Nathanson sold more CDs of Some Mad Hope last year on his own than his major label debut in 2003. The fact is when we connect with fans and offer sincerity and music, people will spread the word.
We, as the musicians, need to think of new ways to get our music out there without being pushy. My main goal is to attend one band's concert a week if possible, and pass out free sampler CDs of my music and buttons (www.cheapbuttons.com) to people leaving.
I went to see the Office play at the Blind Pig here in Michigan, and even volunteered to help the opening band film their set since they didn't have anyone to hold the camera. By helping others, I hope to be making lasting musical contacts.
Then, I passed out 50 CDs to everyone leaving, and I hope they will check me out in the future.
It's simple, but it's fun. It's work, but it's movement, not only hoping and dreaming, waiting for someone to "discover" you.
Greetings: From my experience help
seems to always come when you do
not need it.People feel compelled
at times to offer help when they
feel that the help will be a boost
and not just wasted effort on their
part. So I keep on keepin on and
if someone who can help does help
it will not go in vain or with out
them getting something in return.
because, life is about give and take. I think that A healthy business relationship is one where
there is give and take on both sides.
I had many fantasies about being "discovered" when I first started playing music. I think many people are looking for validation and attention. But it's been SO VALUABLE to realize I need to work hard and be in reality to accomplish things.
The truth is the music business is sleazy and corrupt and it always has been. Make music because that's what you love to do, and let go of the results. If you're looking for anything else find a therapist
I saw Patti Smith speak - this lady asked her "how do I find funding for my new record?" and Patti Smith said "go find a job". She worked many odd jobs at the beginning of her career. There's no way around growing up and taking responsibility folks.
Right on Derek!
BE OPEN TO THE YES!!!
Someone wrote this to me in an email... after meeting me randomly and I shared a vision a dream I had for a music project for kids
"You are so right... just be open to the yes. put your vision out there, make yourself available to be useful, and let the universe take care of the details."
maybe sometimes there is help.
;)
As an artist who happens to have an MBA, I can tell you with a certanty the DIY is the way to go in these times. The best way not to fall in the industry's trap is to know first-hand what works for you and what doesn't. It can be done. You just have to determine what "success" means to you. The truth of the matter is you need all of the elements of a business in order to be "successful" i.e. accounting, legal, marketing, sales, distribution, etc. If you can provide for these things yourself, more power to you. As an artist, you must have these elements in place to reach your full potential. Nothing wrong with not having lofty goals, but if your intentions are to make it past selling to your family and friends, you need to have a plan and a team that can help you execute. Read, educate yourself, study and network with others. The biggest mistake I ever made in business was not aquiring the help that I needed to (1) establish (2) maintain and (3) take it to the next level. I will not make that mistake again. It takes an investment; yours first, then others. I believe we are living in exciting times for artists because the industry has changed, much to our benefit. Take hold and don't be discouraged in making the right investments that will serve your artistry well. Good luck to you all.
That's alright with me. I prefer to do things myself anyhow. Then when what I'm doing with my music is successful, I can reap the rewards. I'll also have the joy of knowing I succeeded. Makes you feel real good about yourself when you do. However, if the good Lord wants me to have something He will supply it.
Any success I've had, I chased it down, pursued it and saw it through to completion. I already knew no one was going to help me until I came up on my own.
I'm thankful for those experiences that test my resolve because the benefits I have gotten from them are on going even though those obstacles of that moment have pasted.
If you don’t believe in you, you can’t possible persuade anyone else too.
To hear that no one will help me but me is VERY encouraging! To be reminded that I am responsible for my own successes and failures is very empowering. To give that personal power away to anyone else is to diminish myself.
Granted, we all benefit from 'help' or 'assistance', financial, emotional, or otherwise. Tho to expect it to come from anywhere but within is to take away from our greatest assets; ourselves. : )
It appears my original message didn't pass for some reason. Anyway,God has been my help. I have prayed and gotten whole songs and open doors that ended in a cd.
Promotion comes from the Lord.
I believe that it's best to not get too much help / funding in the beginning.
The individual or group needs the space and time to commit to a specific, simple direction, and on a shoestring budget.
If one gets moving on the right path, then generous people, timely circumstances and opportunities begin to present themselves.
If none of this happens, or it is not possible to see the opening doors, then to me that would mean that you have not properly understood your direction, and you need to go back to the drawing board and listen, experiment, adjust, and maintain an open mind.
Once I am keyed into my purpose-at-that-time and making moves, I find that I do very little alone.
Obviously the answer lies somewhere in between the extremes of original question and Derek's response.
It would be silly to expect someone to suddenly invest $500,000 in you unless you were already successful. But it would also be silly to expect to do absolutely everything yourself and still be a success.
The answer is that you need to have a few committed people who are prepared to invest TIME and ENERGY in your musical vision.
I've been thinking about this lately because I have worked entirely on my own for a few years now and built up a faithful fan base online, but I have come to realise that it's going to be very difficult to make the next step up without some help.
I am a typical musician - slightly insecure and more focused on music than commerce - and my gut instinct is to just keep doing what I've been doing all by myself and not ask for help.
But I think history shows us that most artists who have been successful musically AND commercially have had a brilliant and committed manager behind them, and that was often someone who grew WITH the artist and developed their managerial skills concurrently.
And where do you find such a person? I've really no idea!
- DC
It’s not true that no one will help you. If your craft is any good you will make a lot of friends and get a lot of support. You’ll have to walk to your first gig just like everybody else, but you’ll find your legs and get a lift. When people come to a show, like what they see, and spread the word – that’s someone helping. When they turn you on to an insider at a festival – that’s someone helping. When they come to your defense, that’s someone helping.
I don’t need to go on. The point is that the Man With The Cigar won’t be there. But you don’t want him anyway. I’m old enough to remember the days when everybody wanted a record contract. In fact you practically died without one. Now, who needs it?
I was friends with a Bay Area band who signed a two year deal with a company who used them for a tax write off. The recording they made was shelved and never released. They were under contract so they couldn’t make a move for two years.
What I’m saying is – and my experience bears this out – there are a lot of people who will help you. This is very much a hands-on, in the trenches, networking kind of thing. If you don’t like people you better quit now, because they will save you life. But it’s reciprocal – you need to put them in your art and do it for real. Then we all rise.
Nobody helping motivates me. I know when it's all said and done I can only depend on me.Independant is the best way to be!Here is some key words I will leave for you"I make music that bangs and I roll with a crew".Paytc
Wow, do you actually read all of these replies?
I feel the way you described, Derek. Besides, if someone does it FOR me, when I achieve my goal it wouldn't be ME doing it, would it? Thanks for posing the question. Cheers!
Compose, perform to 'please youself', to quote Ricky Nelson's 'Garden Party' lyrics.
I would see it as an opportunity and it would surely motivate me.
On the other hand, there's always help around when you really need it (at least that's what I've learned of the past few years...)
Cheers.
Early on I always expected someone to come out of the sky and make everything work. (delusional) Now I understand what you are saying is an absolute fact. Sometimes you just have to be patient and keep working many different angles. Music is mostly like the universe, 5 units of energy in for 2 units back up until the exponential machinery is working. Your answer would have depressed me in the old days, it really is energizing today knowing exactly what needs to be done and how to do it. Maybe it is an arrogant attitude but I am going to kick ass in this arrangement!! Be on the lookout for the Centrifugal Satz Clock!!
I would expect answers like that from people that are already successful, BUT IT WOULDN'T dicourage me. If anything, it makes me more eager to make it happen for myself. Once my mission and demands are met, then I could help others unlike others helped me! Open the doors for the new talant!
40 years ago no musician had the tools we have now.
Now - more than ever before - success in within the reach of anyone with the passion, drive and talent to get music heard, bought and sold.
It's amazing! If I want to, I can record a song today and have worldwide distribution tonight.
Create it and make it happen!
Great post, Derek.
I'm not even sure what SUCCESS in the music biz means anymore. Is it being on "cribs" playing tennis with Kanye West? Is it playing music for your lively hood, and not having a day job? I do know it has NOTHING to do with writing a good song, and putting on a good show. I look at the top 40 now, and I don't know whether to laugh or cry. If an investor comes along sure, walk through an open door, but sit back and wait for a philanthropist? a real musician couldn't do that anyway.
Not to sound pretentious, but I wouldn't have asked you those questions in the first place, preferring to find the answers for myself. But that's just me...
Thanks for everything Derek.
My mother says that "necessity is the mother of invention" I believe that whole heartedly because any door that shuts in my face seems to open an even better one for me. Life is like a paper bag that you have to beat your way out of. Yes it's difficult and no the answers are not written on the walls, but it's not impossible. Trying to get someone to carry you is harder than carrying yourself! You might as well focus on ways to effectively move yourself forward and then many will come along and want to help. No one wants to invest in anyone who doesn't look as if he or she hasn't invested in themselves.
Radiant Amar
www.radiantamar.com
I partially agree with you, as this depends on several factors such social, financial, effort and luck. These circumstances are integrated, influence and interact one with another. For exmples, if he has the right contacts in the music business and meet the right people in that field, then the social and luck elements play a major part againts the unfortunate elemet of financial difficulty where as, if he works hard to achieve his goals then he will be able to achieve all of them I believe because, he will search and try to interact with the right people in the field, befriend the right guys and most importantly, he will need to be in the right place where he will find many of them. After he does this, they will be able to help him to promote his aim and gradually, convince of his potantial by touring and gigging every where. It's more advisable to do it as team work, as this will increase such possibilities. In short, you will never learn if you don't do it by yourself; and you will never appreciate success or enjoy it if someone else did it for you. I refer to Madonna as a perfect example for the issue.
I don't think it's ever occurred to me that anyone would help me. My main motivation is passion, and if I have passion and persistence both, I get things done. Passion is how I met you, Derek! I was simply thrilled to hear about CD Baby being in Portland, and felt passionately enough about it to put myself out there and write you and introduce myself. I didn't wait for a job posting. I tromped on over and tossed my enthusiasm in your lap. It also helps to consistently question and redefine success for yourself. If success, to me, means security, then I'm less likely to take risk. But if success is joy, then joy can be found in much more unlikely places.
I've always been one that wanted to prove that I could do it even when the odds were against me and no one thought I could. If your a musician that truly wants to take it to the next level and do what you love full time, a long bumpy road ahead is expected and in a weird way welcomed. What Derek said is just reality, but that reality is what fuels my journey to being successful and doing what I'm destined to do!
The only thing you can rely on to be there for you in the music business is your audience. If you connect with one and nurture that relationship, it will be with you for life. As far as everything else, you're on your own.....
One more thing....I have to say from a business stand point CD Baby is one thing that has been there for me...the instant networking is something that no one in any time period could have happen so quickly. It is the distribution mechanism that careers of any generation could only dream of...and now that it is set up I can spend my time creating new music! All kinds of possibilities exist!!!
Good things happen to those who make them happen. the trick is getting to know the people along they way who have the resources to get your toe inside the door."The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, with a long plastic hallway where theives and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson
Highly discouraging to musicians who are not business minded, who prefer to focus on their art. Not all artists are good businessmen, and not all businessmen are artists.
Plus, self promotion can be very difficult if you suffer from low self esteem - which many artists may do in relation to their own art.
So, not all artists have strong ego's and not all strong egos make good art.
Thus, it's understandable that the comments make one wonder what to do at all, if there are no businessmen left to partner with an artist who wants to focus on creating.
I mean, would a chef get discouraged if there were no waiters and managers to partner a restaurant with?
Would a teacher get discouraged if they not only had to teach, but had to find their students and market their school?
Would a doctor get discouraged if they had to take time off practicing medicine, to running their hospital?
Etc.
The music industry used to have specialists. One would produce, another would engineer, another would play and another would write the song. And that's just the song creation.
You had publicists, and marketers and a whole industry geared towards making music reach people.
To ask single people to do a multi-man job is pretty discouraging, yes.
I have had alot of interest from major "people" but no "help"....yet.Alot of big talk.
The secret is how to get people to know you exist on the web. This is the secret I need to find out.This way I don't need them.
I see alot of articles about it but they never really give the answer. Alot of the time it's buy my book that tells you, but they really don't.Alot of sparkling
babble. Maybe there are articles that help.
Anyway if you ever decide to get to Hi. I still have the contacts. ha
Ted Snyder
To answer your question....
I have had the attitude that I need to do it myself for awhile. If someone comes along great.
Ted
This is a thought-provoking and helpful topic. For me, realizing and facing the fact that I have to do something myself can be both discouraging and energizing. Ideally, after the initial shock--which can be deflating--a little spark gets ignited, and it's up to me to protect and fan that. The tricky part for me is not usually getting that spark of motivation--it's figuring out how to apply it. It's one thing to say, "Yeah! I'm going to get to that level myself, so I don't need the [agent, investor, etc.]," but it's a very different thing to figure out how to do that. Often the reason we want those people to take an interest in us is because we don't know how to get to the desired level, not because we don't have the energy to do so. I think the key, then, is guidance on the path.
"You can or you can't, you shall or you shant. You will or you won't, so do it or don't. But one thing you know for sure, nobody gonna do it for you." (From "You Can or You Can't" from the Six Pack Willy cd.
I thought I was lucky when a popular agent/manager offered to help me, and when someone with money want to invest I'm me. But the truth is, there is always a price... The agent booked me a heap of gigs, but mostly on venues that didn't want my style of music (he honestly thought I was so good that it didn't matter-no-one is that good). The investor mostly loved my songs and performing, but wanted to change me into something I wasn't. Lesson learned... I am now focussed ok doing what I have to do to get where I want to go. Zoom, zoom!
Honestly, it shouldn't matter what people think or how popular you are. People should be happy to make the art they can make. The artist should be the artist, and not focus on being a pimp.
Definitely does not discourage......
but in Australia there are not many
venues left just big major ones,
and basically only for big artists
and mostly from overseas, thats the
one thing that disencorages....and
there isnt any more Brian Epsteins
left, who can really see but no
I personally lost the desire to feel
disencoragement, it only makes me
want to really gat out there and
do something about it.
Yes Derek, you are absolutely correct about the fact that theres no one to help me at this point in life unless I earn $5000 a month. This is quite discouraging for me but I guess thats how the world operates....I will only make me work harder I guess!!!!
Derek, your style is great and your advice very helpful and your openness to be a part of independant music is what drew me to you. I agree with doing everything ourselves also. Being a mom of little children and creating music and promoting my music on my own has been a little intimidating as both are my passion, and reading what you say is motivating. It can all be accomplished!!! Your words are incouraging. Thanks for your sharing and rebelliousness!!!
fuck all the psychobabble.
just do your thing. perfect it. nothing is to far out there to garner an audience.
you aren't be someone else.
m..
intodown
Good post, Derek
An artist/songwriter/composer who expects someone else to do the work so they can "make it" has the wrong end of the stick. The way it works is, you dedicate the time, learn/grow your craft, play out, sell your indie CD, have a good 'product', build a solid reputation... and "they" will come to you when they see that you can make them money. That being said, I wouldn't be where I am now without the wonderful mentors who have helped me by sharing their knowledge & skill with me over the past few years.
I spent too many years thinking I wasn't good enough for anything to waste time waiting for someone to come along and "make me" successful. I'm successful because I get up every day and do music, and make my living at it. I'm very grateful to be able to do that, it's a dream come true... and it proves that - like other commentors have said - persistence pays off, if one is willing to listen & learn.
-Vikki
The statement "Nobody is going to help you" sounds a little incomplete. Generally speaking, I believe in the idea that no one may help anyone unless the person who wants help does his or her part first. I also believe that anyone who sincerely needs help must be assisted by another who would be willing. In order to accomplish this, I believe that the person needs to "ask,seek and knock" and may indeed receive the right answer according to the sovereign will of God, provided that God will indeed give His best for his children. This notion entails that if what's being asked is in the will of God for the benefit of the child, it will be granted; however, if God has another plan, one needs to be patient to receive the right answer. I believe that if we truly search our hearts, we will be able to discern what we should seek and be directed to the right path.
I don't expect help from the outside world. I feel guilty, though, as my day job and other responsibilities have been taking up all my time, and I've devoted very little lately to promoting our band. If we never reach an audience it will be my fault.
It is not the agent, manager or any other person not even mom. It has to be you... (me)
Not even that loyal band mate... it is and always will be "what is in it for me..."
That is why we call it "my music..."
My guess is... I then would have to say "this is the agent, managers or mom's music..."
If I want loyalty then I need a dog...
My love of music is not only the performance as wonderful and necessary as performance is. It still is the music that is why I do what I do.
Even when the music is not mine. Porter, Gershwin, Hefty and Stein and countless others, I strive to convey my own understanding... interpretation of what the writer was saying, feeling, meaning...
Which makes me a good musician, performer and a lossy business man...
Maybe that is why there are so many wonderful "side-men" out here... it's all in...
what do you want...
Remember the Alamo.
Part of me sorely wishes for someone to swoop in with ataboys and credit cards (that work!). When that is shown to be unlikely to impossible, that part of me goes into something like a pout; "Oh yea! I'll show you. I'll take my genius and talent to the corner and suck my thumb!"
But there's another part of me that has known this all along; "So what's new, buckaroo? You had nothing when you started and you have nothing now, except the same potential you had at the start, which you got for free. When you are at your limit and spent every ounce of yourself and there's nothing left of you to give ... then, and only then, are you ready for help. And, that will come, without doubt, but only when you're ready for it."
I'm tired but there's still some left, so I guess I'm on my own for a spell. Time to go put another pass on the new song ...
That's just a fact of life. No good businessman, (and by now everybody knows music IS a business) gives anything away for nothing. And that's if you are making $5000 a month or $50 a month!
It is never true that no one will help you...someone will always help you..true, no one will wave a magic wand and make the hard work go away..the key is to recognize help in the form it is given..love, support, encouragement are available to any open heart..and the teacher will appear when you need teaching...then the world becomes a playground of resources..live long enough and you'll see
Hi Derek,
I definitely disagree when you say 'nobody’s going to help you'. Am I not there for myself? ;-)
Ok, seriously, always being a self-starter and self-taught in everything, this would just be another chance for me to rise to the challenge. Life's all about challenges and the way one handles them and I find it more efficient and rewarding being in control of one's life and achievements.
However, some external help time to time don't hurt, do it? Ad what you do here is just an example of such useful help. Thanks.
I find it encouraging. It's Reality..and the older i get (58), the more i find comfort in reality. In 100 years, nobody will remember you or your music in all liklihood. If you are making music for any other reason than because you love doing it, you might want to consider spending your time elsewhere. "Success" is a very subjective term. What does it mean to you? When you die, will you look on your musical life as time well spent? Destinations are all well and good but in the end, it's enjoying the trip that counts.
I do not worry about the one's who do not want to help, I worry more about the one's that say they will help.
Who is it that they really want to help?
Seems like obvious advice but we don't often want to hear it. However, I must agree that it reminds us of an absolute reality: No one cares about your project(s) more than you do. Therefore, keep on keepin' on! Only you can make it happen.
I have been "doing it on my own" for about fifteen years, have always lost more money than I make, and have had to drastically scale back my musical activity since my daughter was born due to financial and time constraints. I recently booked myself a week-long tour in UK by contacting similar bands on myspace, asking them what clubs they play in their town and then contacting those clubs. People are very helpful on a grass roots level (well, musicians are; club promoters mostly don't get back to you unless you are a booking agent). A week-long tour took me a couple months to organize and promote (online & local press) and I still lost money. That is a couple months I could have spent recording! I suppose I could write songs with less chords, or less heart — might save me some time so I can get on with banging my head against the industry...
I have also spent a year or so setting up pages on facebook, ourstage, mtv, cbc, etc etc and my CDs are certainly NOT flying out of the CD Baby warehouse! (Or off the merch table...) Perseverance does not necessarily bear fruit.
To be honest, I'd prefer to just stay at home and make records, but unfortunately you don't get better unless you perform. Practice does not make perfect; there is a "trial-by-fire" element to performance and recorded music often forgets to include the fire.
So I think you have to choose: do you want to make more money, or make great music? Seriously, you need a budget to do anything — so get a day job that doesn't interfere with your performance / production schedule. Trying to be your own "team" takes more time than a day job and doesn't bring in any money or get you better gigs — that is time you could be using to make music.
JBall
Well, this is definitely true and good to learn. But on the other hand, I have several friends who have "made it," that is, are making a living playing; and in a couple of cases are actually famous (you would know their names). In every single case, that person, whether male or female, had a spouse, significant other, or other "backer" who "managed" them (i.e., did a tremendous amount to advance that person's career which he/she was incapable of doing him- or herself); OR (and often also) paid a significant amount toward that person's personal and/or career expenses. In a couple of cases the person is now so successful that they are "making a living" -- but would never have gotten there if this other person had not done what they did, for a long time until that person broke through. And most of those significant others are still doing it, working a tiring "day job" so their spouse can go "on the road" and live their dream -- often cheating on them in the bargain. True, nobody is going to drive up in a limousine and hand you a piece of paper, your ticket to fame and fortune; or even (good advice, D.S.) a booking agency contract so you can even BUILD a following. But on the other hand I know literally hundreds of musicians at all levels of being known, and the ones who are "making a living" playing music, without exception, got there because someone who loved them, went above and beyond to help them get there. Sure, you also have to have talent but many people who are even more talented haven't made it because they didn't have enough (or any) support, mainly financial. I'm just sayin'.
Lots of great ideas here; though "Do-it-yourself-so-it-gets-done-right" is a perfectionist mantra I am trying to dissolve!
Sure, no one is going to care about my music--and every tiny detail about the creative and business aspects of managing it--as much as I am. But I run myself weary trying to do it all myself.
Like many people have said in these posts, it can be a good creative and refueling move to balance self reliance with asking for help.
Even if the help isn't as "perfect" as you'd work for yourself, a modest financial hand, a motivated but likewise overextended agent, a fan who goes crazy with postering for you, or your family who helps fill CD orders... sometimes it's wise to ask for small things, since they can provide a real boost!
As a musical director, I've never had an agent. I just had to work hard and get to know people in my industry. Just to get my foot in the door, I was very inexpensive! But, back in the 50's, I must admit that my well-rounded talent got me jobs playing piano, on to arranging and conducting, orchestrating and composing. I have to thank my Mother for making me take piano and read music in choirs, until I was old enough to realize what it took to compete in the musical world of Hollywood. Derek, you are right on in your evaluation of the difficulty in breaking in to the professional music world. Good luck to all!
Johnny Mann
Music is like having children, if you make too many calculations, you never write songs and share them. I found out that friends that are real friends will help if they're impressed by your commitment. Not only $$ helps!
Someone IS going to help you. You need to find people you help with the little things, those little details that you're stuck on. When I had difficulty naming my upcoming album, I asked the advise of a writer/poet friend who came up with a beautiful and purposeful name in fifteen minutes.
Someone's not going to do ALL of it for you. But friends will lend there talents to specific tasks, and be happy to be a part of the process.
Hi Derek,
I know this is absolutely your point , and the concept of CDbaby - an artist should be two-on-one, so to say - a musician and his own agent. Right, there is nobody out to help - these times are definitely over. Whether it does encourage or discourage me personally? I would say both of it.
First, as an indie artist I know that everything in my life depends on my efforts only, so each and every newly won fan, each new positive review etc. counts, and this is a great feeling. On the other hand, I know how extremely much time this self-promotion takes, and as a musician I could make far better use of this time ( composing, exercising...you know ). I would be happy if I had someone who could help me with those promo issues!
I think ( well , you are right here again ) that one has to really love the music biz and have fun making the self-promotion - to the same degree as one has fun making music. Then it works.
Best Xmas wishes to you,
Andrew
The thought that "I am totally responsible for my success" and "no one can help me now" really motivated me to get through difficult college courses. It kept me focused and boosted my morale while also inspiring me to stay up long hours burning the midnight oil. When you finally do achieve or succeed it feels so much better because you know you did it all by yourself.
I have never made a dime selling a song I wrote. I have never won a songwriting contest. I will never stop writing songs.
Hallo,Derek
"Nobody’s going to help you. It’s all up to you".
For me it is rather motivating.Because help other person realy depends on you,wether you want it or not.If you have a wish to have help you certainly will get it.
Marry Christmass and a Happy New Year,Derek.
All the best,
Roman
Ok, its true, and its discouraging, and then liberating as you all have said. But I have found that many people have helped, all along the way, in all the ways that they could.... and why should we expect more. Do you help struggling artists in any way you can? And is that not a special and wonderful thing?
At the end of the day we are making music because we would rather be happy than rich, right? So be happy.
Hi Derek,
How funny and ironic this is for me. I have been writing, playing
and recording music for years. Recently I had one small success with a song I wrote. It has since been released as part of a movie soundtrack. That exact recording was turned down by countless publishers, record companies, agents, managers and musician advocacy companies; I'm sure you have heard of some of these companies Derek. In fact, several of the above companies went as far as to critique this song with extreme predjudice. I have been working toward getting a deal for many years without much success. I have a few friends that got their brass ring very quickly. Now, I have a young daughter that wants to break into the biz, "kazam" her first demo I produced has been picked up and could possibly yield her a major recording contract. I have come to beleive there is nothing set in stone, there are no brass rings waiting, nobody is going to help(except Derek Sivers), I must figure this business out on my own. Once I learned and accepted this, everything became much easier. Thanks for all of your help Derek you are truly AWESOME!
Peace,
Jimmy/J.T.TRED
I will Help someone help themselves to help me!
See: www.taxi.com/747networkz
www.cdbaby.com/kidokompany
Kido from a UFO!
I have to say it is very interesting reading all the responses...I've learnt a lot! Ahhh another thought:DIY...have fun doing it...and when you've done it right...help will come to you!
When you think that nobody's going to help you, does that encourage you or discourage you?
The fact that nobody is going to help me achieve my musical goals & success (or even care, unless $$ are being made) may be what keeps me up at night - relentlessly working to succeed on my own efforts!
It is a harsh reality, & I think it applies to many aspects in life. If YOU have the desire and ambition to succeed, it will happen - if YOU don't, nothing will happen. AND NOBODY WILL CARE.
As a 19 year old guitar player, obsessed with achieving success with music, I am thankful it is this way. NOBODY IS GOING TO HAND IT TO YOU ON A SILVER PLATE. Good. It separates the wheat chaff. I wouldn't want that. I enjoy figuring everything out and watching myself (& projects) grow. It's like a game, there's a lot more involved than composing music.
Good Luck musicians, we're on our own
-Luke O'Farrell
The truth will set you free. When you get it on your own, you will appreciate it more.
Well, It made me IMMEDIATELY open a new door in my mind..there are more then one 'traditional' methods in securing an agent. But if we don't allow creativity..and take others 'no's'...won't be long until you give up your dream....
Always more then one door to go through and if you can't find a door..ck. the windows..can't find a window..build one..
Agree ya gotta do it yourself..find a way to 'creatively find an agent' that is!
Joy
I need to read more of these comments I find them very helpful.
Thanks Derek.
Nonno Lee
Dereck, you have already helped me in many ways. I have recorded 3 CD projects that I paid for myself and put on Cd Baby for sale.I work a fulltime day job as a banker.I am in sales and know that you have to promote yourself.It takes time and hard work.You need to network, mail to radio stations, try to get airplay, There is no magic secret formula. There is no big time agent or investor that will come along and make you a star. That only happens in the movies. Reality is you make your own destiny and success. As an artist if you dont have a business head also and know how to promote yourself and sell yourself along with your god given talent no one will walk up and say I want to make you a star and put you on tour and make your first album.You have to make it happen yourself. In reading these replys some of the people have written, some of them get it others do not.There is a whole lot of musical talent in this world only a handfull will have huge careers with tours and recordings and tv appearances, because they have the drive ,passion, talent, know how and guts to go after it. Also the most important part, their talent is something special ,unique and crowd pleasing that will make a promoter and decent agent some $$ as well as the artist. If you love music and believe in your self and your talent be happy with the success you derive from it yourself and sing or play because you love to do it and love to make people happy . Merry Christmas to all of you and keep the music in your hearts.
Barbara Ann Van
"You don't create what you want, you create what you give your attention to, whether you want it or not"
It's true... no one will help you, if you believe it. There are many people who would love to be a contribution to your talents. The key is to 1st, get clear what it is you want and 2nd, start sharing what you are up to and 3rd, request what it is you need.
Some of the greatest successes have come out of financial hard times. It makes us much more creative.
www.petegeorge.tv
Gezus, inspiration up the yang!
I'm not discouraged by the fact that nobody wants to help me. What discourages me is the fact that there are so many people out there helping themselves. Those people probably have more experience in the music scene and a hotter flame under their asses.
I'm more of a lone wolf, the modest samurai, the gentle giant, the clark kent, the dude that doesn't feel comfortable selling his music not only because it's not the best he's ever heard but because he was always shy and underestimates his potential.
I feel that a great song is a great song, and I like to think that as long as I focus on my music I'll hopefully at least pull a Van Gogh on everyone. Haha!
Good luck to everyone else! I'll see you in the next life!
Adam N.
Been there done that and who gives a damn! Just put one foot in front of the other and forget about the "Bigtime." You don't want to be owned by anything or anybody. Stay in control and do the best you can. There was a time, but it is no more. Stop dreaming and get to livin'. Good luck, and I'll see you all on the road, I hope!! Don't call me Mr. or Gramps. Just call me Brad and let the music do the talkin'. Help each other where you can and remember it all comes around. Oh! Only play for nothing when you are helping a good cause. Don't let people take advantage of you.
God bless you all!
Bradley Winfield Parker
there's a fine balance between taking responsibility and believing in your self. at some point you do need outside help. I think your answer came off a little cynical. I procured representation with a booking agent before I was making $5000 a month on my own and am currently in the midst of choosing an investor (3 possible takers). I think a huge part of it comes down to having great music that people can get behind.
Well, yes we are born alone and go through life alone and no one will "help" you unless there is something in it for them ie money. Even those that do "help" you along say a friend,lover, spouse, whatever are only doing it for their own reasons. To show their love, support, get laid, give themselves a lil' feel good for helping you. etc. I for one have always found this to be a motivator. I'd much rather learn how to help myself than to be ignorant of the ways of the business. I can fail or succeed but remain at peace and happy because I did it my way & "owe" nothing to anyone or anything else except to that little voice inside that's always telling me what I need to do next and which way to go. We should all just learn to listen to ourselves a little better. We all know the answers or how to find them after all.
I have to disagree. If your human, you'll naturally be discouraged by such a negative statement. Even if it is just a little bit.
I think a better way to put it is "No one is going to help you until you help yourself"
I think once you show initiative and you have something great to offer people are willing to help you along.
I know from experience! It's just a matter of trading your talents for theirs. Make sure the person who could potentially help you gets something in return. I got a photo shoot for next to nothing. I needed pictures, but they needed to build their portfolio more. It was the same with the hair stylist, the make-up artist and the clothing stylist. All were willing to help because they needed something too.
Find out what people need and run with it. Don't expect anything for free. Once you understand this, the faster things will start falling into place for you.
i'd like to put a positive spin on everything negative that happens, but what the fuck?! sometimes there's only so much you can take. i've worked years and years on my music and little has come of it. am i a shitty songwriter? i don't think so, but who does, right? i get discouraged watching shitty bands get all the hype and sometimes i just want to say fuck all and quit this stupid shit... i even have a few times... but my love of music always brings me back... now in my thirties i'm beginning to create different music for different reasons, trying to have fun within the process, not the result and trying not to give a shit about whether anyone hears it or not. there's only so much i can do or control and my life is too fucking short to give a fuck either way... sorry if this all sounds negative, it's not. maybe my band name says it all... THE WAY IT IS!!!!!!!!!
Having worked for two major record labels after finishing university...where we were all 'mates', I, as a naive young singer/songwriter thought "GREAT!! These guys will help make my dreams come true!" WRONG..
Then the industry started shrinking and majors started signing fewer and fewer artists..and I thought...do I fight for my dream and make it happen alone or do I sit back and feel sorry for myself because it's all just too hard?!
I took the first option. Started to meet people who were like minded. Self starters, motivated, hungry talented musicians, writers and producers who could help me achieve my dreams and I could also help them achieve theirs either simultaneously or down the track.
A very important thing I found encouraged me was finding the right team to work with me, where each person complimented the others' qualities and expertise and we helped to uplift one another if one person was having a difficult day struggling with the feelings of insecurity or feeling less optimistic.
So my reaction to 'noone is going to help me'? I've been living that for 5 years and built my strong team where we believe in eachother and uplift one another pushing to the next level...and step by little step it is all coming together. I am encouraged by it all because I know I was brought here with a purpose and I can't allow a few NOs and YOU CAN'Ts discourage me and stop the joy I receive and give to others.
Very well said and a rule I live by. I couldn't have picked a bigger challenge than to manage and produce an edgy visual act that might offend the sensibilities of corporate folk especially in light of the Janet Jackson debacle et al.
Having said that, it's been a long, lonely struggle but for each plateau the band managed to achieve, there's was something or someone there to pull us through the gate - but only after proving ones mettle in the face of adversity.
Through it all, we have managed to find an investor in the six figures, the support to guide us through uncharted waters, a major label distribution deal (Fontana North/Universal), and unique opportunities that gave the band high visibility not to mention credibility by appearing in and licensing to major TV productions aired on networks with a wide broadcasting/cable audience.
There is no magic formula as it all boils down to hard work and a diligent focus on the ultimate goal. But one must bear in mind that the accomplishment is only achieved by incremental steps that might not look very progressive from the inside looking out.
It all comes down to building trust and credibility, especially in a market downturn such as what we're experiencing at the present moment.
It's funny seeing peoples responses of, yes it's encouraging, but it's also discouraging. It's funny because if it's discouraging why do it. Life is too short to waste your time on things you get discouraged about.
Hi Derek:
The Truth no longer discourages me. I'm happy just being able to make my music videos and put them on YouTube. They go around the world and people do watch and listen to them. My music videos touch people's heart around the world, and I hope it infuses them all with good feelings and a renewed commitment to be and share Love.
I appreciate being able to put my albums up on CD Baby but am not too concerned about sales. If I were motivated by money=sucess I'd miss out on the bliss of performing and producing. Not having funds is a drag, but it does cultivate one's engenuity. Music after all is a celebration of life and living. If I do something that people like, that's pretty good, but the real reward is living a long life and still being able to play one's original songs and sing them too. The Music is it's own Reward. I'm blissed because the music lives inside. It's not a business. It's a way of living and loving and finding liberation from the monotony of habitual existance. Don't ever deny the World your music because they don't want to pay for it. Music is a blessing and it is our gift to Humanity and logged into the "annals" of CiviliZation for all Time to come. So Play and Play and Play and see if you can get the World to play along with you.
Love and Aloha... Harmony
Guess it's all in your priorities, and where you're at, musically, professionally, and family-wise. As we're all in our early 50's, and having been in band situations for 30+ years, our priorities shifted away from aspiring to be rock stars to just being happy about being able to write, perform, and produce original power-trio rock. I would consider us "realists", in that we do what we do within the constraints of our situations. Our day jobs not only support our families, but also support our music habits. To be making $5K a month, we'd have to be gigging so much as to disrupt our "supply chain" to our music habit. Not sure it's worth being a starving musician, if that's what "making it" is all about...but that doesn't mean that the passion for creating and performing is not there, and in fact, is regularly stoked with new tunes, multiple CDs, and semi-regular gigs.
It's all a matter of priorities, I'd say...
I have a few rules about music. Do as much as you can with music without killing yourself, it is much easier to make a living doing something else to make money and just enjoy music and share it with others, and keep reading Derek's pages for inspiration. Thanks to Derek, I have just created my first Youtube video because he mentioned that can be an avantage to promoting one's music. Thank you Derek!
Brother Sievers,
I have always been motivated by those who would and have said no and or get a day job. It motivated me to 1st perform with a national recording act, get great experience and learn from everyone I met, then second record my own CD completely by myself, place it on this great internet site called CD Baby, and now work on my next CD. Self motivation is Self preservation. Beige is my least favorite color. You are either passionate about your music and career or not. There is no grey area just success or opportunities disquised as failures. Love where your heart is man.
Johnny
It is encouraging and discouraging. I think at first it is a little heartbreaking and scary to know that everything is reliant on your own motivation and determination, but after that feeling subsides I think it can be very freeing and encouraging. It just takes me a moment to get over the fact of life and get inspired to make myself succeed.
You are so right, yet so wrong. Help from others comes as you so vividly pointed out after you decide to help yourself. Don't expect a hand-out('cause these aren't "free"). Expect to to receive 2-5% assistance to the 95% you put in. Derek is the 5% giving us the knowledge but we have use it!
The Choice to succeed dwells within....You make that choice!
Not only is no one going to help you... No one will remember you. I started playing music because as a young kid I idolized certain musicians. I'm almost 30 now and still make music but a few years ago started playing covers for money (you know, until the BIG RECORD DEAL came through). For these years I've felt torn because I split my focus on the covers that make me money and my music that's not being heard by millions. My mind was eased when I came to the realization that when dead I will not be revered as a pioneer, I was not a Kurt Cobain or Zappa or Hendrix. A few people will keep my recordings but it will be the same few that I've met now. I realized that I play music for a living (I make really good money in a cover act) and my friends hate their jobs. In some instances it's great to shoot for the moon, but in others it's better to keep your expectations realistic. The business is in shambles... There will not be another Rolling Stones or U2 in our lifetimes. Don't hold yourself accountable for not getting to that point with your music.
Great question! I enjoyed reading a lot of the 600+ answers.
As a DIY guy at heart, I'm used to "nobody" covering my back. But, it is nice to get a friendly hand up from time to time. I think the key is not to expect help, or to feel entitled just because you are the next Jimi Hendrix...that nobody has heard of.
One positive thought for DIY musicians: I hear folks bitch about popular music every day. Be happy, not bummed, when you hear (insert talentless big name here)on the radio, or MTV. If those types can make it, so can you. (Just imagine if every song you heard was way better than anything you could ever do, how un-motivating that would be.)
The life of an artist is seemingly full of struggle,
Some times though some one comes along that has so much faith in what you do, they won't leave your art to die, and that is a very rare and special gift to be given in this life. Having faith is a powerful thing. There are people that do make a difference, that do help. Like you Derek!
Rachel
Rachel
Hello, That ship laying in the water some people would regard as stranded, not me. The power of the moon bringing the tide in wil lift this ship afloat it can the be steered to any destination. Positivity is always my view of life. God Bless you Derek.
I think getting help with the non-music related aspects of our business always seems to be a wonderful oasis all indie-artists have embedded in there brain - but, keeping that thought in your sub-conscious is key - if it slips into your conscious thoughts you will become dependent upon getting help - consequently, you will squander your valuable time searching for help rather than sticking to your original plan of creating, recording, performing and promoting your art as best you can.
I think back to a band I was in around the early 70's. We managed to secure an audition with a guy who was managing Big Brother & the Holding Company after Janis Joplin. He listened to us at rehearsal and said he didn't think we were ready. He said don't go shopping for a manager to make you. Work on your music, learn about the business, play alot. Good managers will come to you, you don't need to look for them. I think the idea is,don't wait around for some magic person to show up and change your life. Just get out and do it.
You guys are hilarious. "Why would you do something which discourages you"?
Are you for real?
You do it because you love the music, and you try to share your music because you love to communicate. You're not going to stop because there are "so many things out there to do instead." There aren't or you wouldn't be here. So yes, people will keep plugging on...but don't tell them not to get discouraged. When they're dealing with a whole load of crap, don't pretend it's actually a load of flowers. That's just as delusional as waiting around for some talent scout to kick down your door and sign you to a big contract.
I believe we have now entered a season(that is just beginning) where the models of the business of music and all other forms of entertainment/media are going to be radically changing. They will follow our society and economy.
Most musicians do not understand the laws of business and how money is cultivated and grown. I agree no one will offer help, because music in itself has no real value. You cannot eat it or wear it or live in it or drive it. That is what artist's dont see.
I believe that for the last 40 years, the music business has been riding and consuming the creative burst of energy released by a large group of musicians/artists that really only performed and recorded because of an overriding PASSION for music alone...They were not seeking investors,money,fame,fortune,etc...per se. Those followed in the music's wake as a matter of course.
The reality for us today is finding a way to produce and pay for your music yourself. Keep your job and find ways to make money to put into the music and grow it...
If that means limitations on what you can do, so be it.
Money is far to valuable in our present and future state to use on art so the art of music will find a way out into the streets by some new means(or old means).
This reality is not what musicians want to hear,but you can see it happening every day. I accept it and deal with it.
Music will always find its way for those who seek it and have an overriding passion to perform and write music so others may enjoy and receive positive energy from our gift.
It's not big news that nobody will help me, but that motivates me to do it all by myself instead of waiting and hoping somebody will do it for me.
Thanks Derek for your great work with us.
Jean-Michel
www.jeanmichelmenard.com
I am a true believer that the cream will rise to the top.
You just have to take it day by day and follow your gut and have faith in your work and promote, promote, promote.
You are the only one who can do that.
I can't remember accomplishing any of my achievements with someone else's help.
If anything, some resent you for even trying and do their best to drag you down instead.
If no one will help me it means I'm free to do it the way I want it.
No one to help me? OK, not with sums like those you mention, but I've had good musicians help me record many of my songs throughout the years, and while I haven't got many grants, my group "The Runaway Kantele" as a group got a grant to pay for the expenses of recording a demo.
Maybe I've been lucky or maybe it's a good idea to be stubborn? I haven't been able to make a living out of y music, but I don't worry. I also enjoy driving school kids to/from school, or driving a mail van etc.
And some people who really helped me this autumn were the Nordic Institute of Aland who sent me and a guitarist on a tour of the Faeroe islands + arranged with a local flute/keyboard player for the tour.
Being able to show people I've had this response from an institution like that could be helpful for the next step: More tours, CD (recording paid by the abovementioned grant) etc. Who knows?
I once had a bassist from NYC who said people are this laid back only on the west coast and in Scandinavia. He may be right. I don't worry.
I also don't want anyone to dicktate (sic!) what music I should be doing. That's why I keep doing day jobs.
Sadly there isn't some magic bean that will blast your career into hyper mega success. Its always about grassroots and growing one step at a time.
We have had people thinking that being on the air is enough to get them famous overnight. It just doesn't work that way.
Being open and honest about this being work and a rough business is the nicest thing you can tell a hopeful musician or group.
Its not about being encouraged its about motivation.
Motivation is internal, encouragement is external, when you are depending on someone or some thing other that your own internal guide posts, you will have a tough time in your endeavors.
If “Nobody’s going to help you. It’s all up to you” is a fact, another is SOME incredible music is never going to be heard: SOME incredibly gifted musicians couldn’t promote themselves out of a wet paper bag. And they never will be able to. No matter how much pep talk they receive, no matter how many Anthony Robbins type seminars they attend, their incredible music will never be heard by more than a handful. SOME, not even that. Not all will be happy with that. Some will be discouraged. Some will be right proper pissed. Some will give up, give in or get lost. Some will jump off a bridge. Some will never give up their day job and come to the end of their life feeling no less discouraged that they “did not make it in music” than they did when they were 21. That’s the way it goes and everybody knows. But this is about making your music “famous”. Earning a “living” from your music. Not about “making music.”
How can you make $5000 a month from gigging, so that an agent will be interested enough to take it to the next level? Jesus wept! How long is a piece of string....Some music makers couldn’t answer that question if they were being dangled by their ankle from a hovering helicopter 10000 feet over the Grand Canyon. The moon, the stars, the planets, the satellites and the space men will never line up for these people. Because some people are not self-promoters and they never will be. It doesn’t mean anything about how good or bad their music is. It has nothing to do with music.
Whether that’s a shame, I don’t know. Quite frankly, I don’t care. It makes no difference to music. If you want to be famous, good luck. If you want to be famous making music, good-luck. Just don’t bullshit yourself. Give the whole self-promotion, ambassador, emissary trip a try. A damn good try! But if you think you’re flogging a dead horse you probably are. That may be the day the penny may drop and drop hard. Wow, no one is going to help me. It is up to me. And SOME will realise it ain’t gonna happen because I can’t do it.
That may be the day to ask: Why am I making music? Who am I making music for? And, quite possibly, the most important one: Do I love making music s-o-o-o much that I would (continue) to do it for F-R-E-E?
I have never known oneone out there to help me ring my own bell. Besides if someone else had control, it would take away your own ideas and the personal touch. But to have someone to help in finding gigs could be very nice.
It is the truth.
taking 100% responsibility for EVERYTHING in your life.
This is freeing...why?
Your own best self gets to step it up for you.
It clears up your lane. If somethings not working...your not where you want to be...you dont have to wait for an outside call or call back etc.
Its you...so rise up!
I do think people will help but you can't give without getting and can't get without giving..so the question of waiting for someone to help you looking through the wrong framework anyways! peace!
Well, I have gotten excited in the past about powerful people who started to manage or sign us or whatever.. but I found that waiting for them to phone back or followthrough on certain promises was frustrating.. If it took too long,
I'd finally start acting as if I'd never met them
and booking myself.. and then they'd be truly surprised at what I'd done on my own. Also, some things I got for free because folks knew I didn't have the backing of big corporate labels. One very nice man who was East Coast mgr. of Tower Records actually said to me that not only would he sell my cds but he would put me in the listening stations in his stores because he enjoyed helping out musicians that he liked as opposed to promoting the records he was "supposed" to promote. I later found out that record companies pay alot of money for those listening stations. I only hope that I will keep your words in mind and keep helping myself as much as I can. It has happened in fits and starts through the years, but on reflection after reading this post by you, Derek, I realize that the best times have been when I have done something for myself. We bought our own camera because a "director" took too long to finish our video. THE HIPPY NUTS have been staying busy and rehearsing as much as we want to, not only when somebody else has time to rehearse with us. We no longer limit ourselves by others' conflicts of interest or time. We are grateful for the time people give us but we also try to give ourselves time too. Happy Holidays, Kathena www.thehippynuts.com
Derek - it's the same as when you entertain the idea that there is no god. Once you realize you are all alone here you start to enjoy on a deep level; you also begin to kick ass every breath you take.
Before I read the other comments let me say that I am not confident in my marketing skills plus I don't have any contacts although I am beginning to play out more and attend 5 songwriter conferences every year. On the plus side I write great songs. Derek spoke the truth and that is what I want to hear, I want reality in my life, I only want dreams in my songs. I'm not a kid anymore and can recognize when someone is BSing me as some will always try to do. Thanks Derek for your honesty
If the situation of lacking help is to be compared to the obvious encouragement of help, then it is irrefutable that it is discouraging to lack help.
The tasks are not even always evident. And some tasks are not possible without help. Most of the optimists here are involved in popular music, where with effort and ingenuity it is possible to coordinate a half dozen or fewer musicians. But if you want to write an opera and get it produced, it is simply not possible to perform your task without help. This is one of the many reasons music is tending away from classical and artful to popular and businesslike. Patronage is basically dead. The help that composers got in the past is not there now. Being a classical composer in America is like being a European born in exile in a foreign cemetery, that is located right next door to a skating rink. You hear all kinds of enthusiasm going on by and for others, doing something other than you are doing trying to get out of the cemetery. All the people at the skating rink can do is invite you to join them. But if you are not interested in skating, your situation is discouraging. Maybe this is why I put a picture of myself at Schoenberg's grave at my Facebook page.
you are so right my friend and i sing as a duo and we call ourself KS and we have found that doing as much as u can urself makes u better. we learned to mix,produced,write,sing,arrange and even record an engineer our music. we did this because for one, noone really gives a care about ur music if that don't benefit more then u. 2nd ,people only want to be down with something that's already hot they don't want to put in the hard work and go through the ups an downs with u.so don,t get discourage u can make it happan. doing it ourselves we got many gigs we did the star spanglebanner for the bulls, bears ,marlins ,cubs whitesox dolphins .we also open for durhill next joe jaggededge omarion mario tlc islybrothers robinthick many more. we had a sit down with universal but we didn't sign that ok cause aleast they are talking about us we also wrote and produced two song for group oversea through sony, don't think they made the album but it let us know that we giong in the right direction with anyones help. It's KS Baby,"TELL A FRIEND" www.myspace.com/ksthenucomers
Hey ... I've never been helped, yet I made my law firm pretty successful.
When I decided to produce music too, I didn't expect no help but from the musicians believing in it and recording with me.
Now the music industry has changed massively and let's put it this way: if you weren't helped in the 70s it was a different thing. Now artists got internet and can put their music out there.
No wonder investors don't bet on new artists ... they don't know exactly where the future of the music is going.
I wouldn't invest ... would you ?
Important is to be part of this new phenomenon where music is created DESPITE investors.
In one world not being helped is very exciting .... we are part of a BIG historical phase .... let's enjoy it and make it the best we can.
my music need no help although i do miss playing with live drummers and fellow musicians.. it only needs exposure.. I'm on all these OMDs but the game is i gotta comment on your music first to get one back.. even amateurs act like that.. so it is tough.. I gotta listen to wannabes and then they are jealous of my advanced, high quality music.. I get played on internet radios but how many does that reach? each site is it's own little click and if you're in there you think you're the best.. you're goin somewhere.. all illusion.. just work on the best music you can and don't worry about making it.. most music i hear still has a long way to go.. it's repeating what's been done before.. it's easy listening afraid to upset anybody.. it's sold it's soul to the devil so to speak and still not getting anywhere.. so help yourself or not.. upset or not.. who cares?
just keep trying to make the best music you can.. anything less is a waste of time..
Personally, I like being in control of my business and my affairs.
Even though it would be easier to get agents and labels to gamble on you, I'm not sure that would be my choice.
I believe I'm more than qualified to manage and contribute my own music myself for the next years. So, your statement is (if anything) only encouraging.
Gleðileg jól
To be a working musician you have to be a business person. This is a business, the ultimate aim is profit. If you just want to make music for the joy of it, go for it that's a beautiful thing, just don't expect someone to bankroll you while you're doing it! Booking agents who don't book you are making a business decision, not saying they don't love your music, just that it won't fill their venue and cover their overheads and make them a profit. This is reality, enjoy
hi derek the simple answer is no it does,nt discourage me it,s up to you sitt at home and think of what coulda be or work your trade it,s the guy&dolls that comin to see you that,s important not some jerk in a office decideing if your music is any good as musicians we know how good or shitte our stuff is the only think that get my back up is the flower smelliers the dujdes that tell ya how great u,r and promise to play your music and dont ...i dont need some flower smellier blowin smoke ... you eoinly get outta this music biz what yeah put in so fight the good \fight and to does who read dis your time will come.keep the faith remember one man,s junk is another man,s treasure so treasure what you got the believe
When you want somthing bad enough you will find all different ways to get what you are after.We have all played a few notes and thought the world was going to fall at our feet,and we created this push all by ourselves.What it all boils down to is, DON'T set your goals higher then your little hearts can handle. If somthing big is going to happen ..it will.
For me it can go both ways. Sometimes it does get me a bit down. But I'd say 99% of the time, it gets me moving. When I'm tired at night and know I have to get up early, the thought that no one else is going to get the shit done is what keeps me at it. No one outside of our little circle cares or not if we make it, not really. And I want to know that when we get there, it was because we wanted it and we worked at it. It will be something we can be really proud of.
I'm cool with doing the work myself (I like the personal contact). My frustration is the lack of follow up (usually when trying to book gigs). It's frustrating when club reps. don't call back to say yes or no after they have asked for your press info.
Yes, it is discouraging, but I prefer to look at it as a challenge. If I can then make it, the end result will be that much more sweeter: the fruits of MY labors.
Incidentally, this is the case in virtually EVERY endeavor today: noone is going to help, you're on your own. Stop looking for handouts, roll up your sleeves and get to work!
I learnt this lesson nearly 20 years ago. It is almost impossible to get someone else to believe and invest in YOUR dream. For the start, you gotta carry the cross so to speak, and believe that when it's off the ground, folks could come flooding in with support.
There really are 2 sides to this story:
I spent the largest part of my musical life waiting for the magic thunderbolt. Now I wait only for magic brook!
It's very freeing and I'm the happiest I've ever been musically (and the most successful)
AND
It is also true that finding the time to book myself along with managing all the other aspects of music and finding the time to actually be creative when I'm not really happy nor good at talking to venues IS REALLY HARD!
The economics of music have changed dramatically. 50 years ago, $50/night, 3 nights a week was an middle class LIVING! There's been no pay rise in all those years for the local players. Now $50 hardly buys dinner where I live.
And, that is a very hard economic reality that cannot be ignored. Basically, I book 1/4 of the gigs I ought to simply for lack of time and lack of skill (I have very little trouble actually getting gigs)
And that hard reality means that there is NO middle ground. the modestly successful musician can get no help - can't afford it, there's no economics to it.
And that makes the whole biz really hard (in a way that for my parents it was not)
cheers
Pictures.
Illusions.
The Past.
Truth.
What is the truth? We all have so many pictures and illusions that we like to call the "RULES" of how this works or that works. So many people are making a living offering some "secret" that will get your career going, your body slim, your health in check or the easiest way to succeed in the music business.
In this time of knowledge we have, you have to know that all of these are people's personal pictures. Not one person succeeded in their dreams the same as the next. Whatever you tell yourself everyday, in your mind, in your deepest places inside, is what you will create in your life.
I think more of what I see in this conversation is about self-esteem. Do you love yourself enough to keep telling yourself everyday the deeper truth or do you tell yourself negativity everyday of why you can't, shouldn't or wont because of this reason and that reason?
Someone may or may not help each of us in our personal quests, but what does help look like to you? A savior, a paycheck, a family member, a new student, a great gig. Help comes in many ways, but if you don't hold in your heart and mind what it is you want, it won't matter if someone helps you or if you know no one will, you'll never get what you want if you don't "see" it happening first and block out all the rest of the "pictures" people want to plaster on you.
The truth is it's been that way for years. Unless you're moving a lot of units (by yourself) record companies won't even take a glance at you. Far as management, that has always been a close friend or a family member or some nobody wanting to be somebody, claiming they know people that know people in the business (yet some how they got time for you). My advice, sell as many CDs as you can to who ever you can in your own city, for a dollar if you have to. Give singles away, go to clubs and talk to DJs, be hard headed, don't take no for an answer. Unless you like being lied to, there is no easy way only HARD WORK!
This is most definitely encouraging for me. That's been my philosophy since I started. I once got distracted because one of my groups gained some nice popularity. But quickly learned that it doesn't matter even if you get signed by say...Universal/Republic, you still have to do it yourself!!
i have triplets and i do kids stuff so my success is that 6 little eyes 3 mouths and 6 ears are singing dancing glistening as they say lets play dad's rockin roll.
i am getting my kids stuff to any one who will listen and then hoping that kids like it like mine do.
i wish it were easy but i have a dream for my kids and i am looking to the future when they are playing and doing their thing. i never thought anything was easy in life and it is not.
Derek,
I personally loved this post, but I think it is a little oversimplified. Everyone is a little different, and artists are even more so prone to insecurity which plagues us all.
Essentially, there is something which divides artists into two groups. And quality is it. We can be wildly insecure but also grandiose at the same time, and not perceive if we are... really.. any good.
Art is self expression. To be paid big bucks for your self expression is a luxury by definition. To be paid for your skill is a whole different area. Some people will never get there, regardless of how much they 'build'. And maybe there is not a 'there', either.
That said, I do get help from so many people, and it is because of my talent, more than anything, and my persistence, which I have to acknowledge. But, I love to read your posts and the one above, especially, because I can always do more and take more responsibility and be more organized and utilize my time better. And then the help I get will be that much more 'helpful'...
The only person under the sun to help me first is me. No one will go out of his/her way to invest in an act that has not proven successful unless the act is willing to take the first step forward. It is encouraging to me that someone has turned me down, which means that I must turn me up and rise above the zero-line of others....
When I put out my first album I thought "everyone will realize how brillant I am and want to help me" Then the reality of "so how many thousands of records have you sold, how many thousands of fans do you have and how many shows do you sell out slapped me back to earth!!!. I've got stories--I'm sure you do as well. The bottom line (for me) has been not what someone will do for you but what are you willing to do for yourself. If you don't believe in you why should anyone else?
One of my earliest learnings was that no one was going to help me beyond an encouraging word now and then; and that anything which happened would only do so if I made it happen. It was daunting but I'd been faced with the impossible a few other times in my then 52 years. I took it one step at a time. Once I understood I was on my own, I got serious about setting goals and getting clear about what I really wanted, tempered with a practical assessment of my resources. A combination of networking and right-place/right-time resulted in a relationship with Ryles Jazz Club in Cambridge, MA that has continued since 1999 to now. Most of what was for sale to 'help' musicians didn't work for me or involved skills I had to some degree. I began to get there weren't really any experts out here. I targeted a handful of people I wanted to meet and engage as supporters and colleagues. I composed a different strategy for meeting each person and step-by-step, one at a time, my relationships and goals began to fall into place.
Here's where other musicians and industry professionals will help: if you reach out to them first. Operating on the theory 'you've got to give to get', I learned my marketing and business skills were a fascination and valued currency. Mostly, I just stepped in where I saw opportunity. There was a vocal showcase where no one wanted to sing first. I saw it as an opportunity to learn how to open a show. Tuesday and Wednesday nights are off nights generally among most venues. I tell a venue to give me their worst night and let me show them what I can do to fill the house with new business. I've put the under-pinnings in place - - the mailing lists and regular promotions and websites. The internet is my place of business. I sell my music world-wide from my home-office thanks to you and CDBaby. It's the under-pinnings that take the time - - the business cards, the graphics, the text itself, the press kits, the demo's and we know it goes on ad nauseum. In a way, Derrick, it doesn't matter what we think. We all understand the reality. This forum is helpful for understanding we are all in this together. best, Patricia Adams
I would have to say yes it does motivate me. When I'm faced with the reality of doing it on my own. It opens up my creativity. I then realize that; either I want to be successful or not. I'm going to help myself or allow myself to fail. Because I'm so competitive I can't allow myself to fail without trying. It's believing there is going to be someone to help the cause of failing. Depend on your self. Only you can cheat you.
I keep going no matter what, I do get discouraged, some people seem to get help, press , money and don't do anything yet it falls in their lap. I always hope but I never give up.
I used to be depressive. Maybe I'm still a little, but the very first day I realised that no one could help me, nor friends, nor fmaily, nor doctor, nor medication, it was the day when I started to feel better.
I use that metaphor to recall that thought :
Imagine you're in water, don't know how to swim...
People usually stand on the brim and shout "yeeey you can make it, yeeeah dont drown ! yeaaaah!"
But no one went into the water, to support my weight, no one would have gone into the water, to make me live.
Music is the same.
It is only when you're a well talented swimmer that people get interested in your race.
So, when I'm told (by myself) that no one is gonna help me, courage fills me.
Why?
Because life is a game, a roleplaying game, where I chosed honesty creation and courage as skills.
kisses derek!
Wow there are a lot of responses to this already, so I have no idea if anyone will ever read mine! Unfortunately there are too many for me to read to check if I'm repeating what someone else said, because I hate doing that. Luckily I try pretty hard not to state the obvious (now if only everyone did the same, someone would actually end up reading this!)
I can't imagine anyone having a frame of mind which causes them to think that anyone would 'invest' $500,000 for them to squander on 'payola' and other expenses. Seriously, I think this story might be on the apocryphal side on Derek's part. But regardless, the topic is worth considering, inspite of the hyperbolic manner in which it is presented here.
But my problem is that I think my output suffers greatly from nobody giving a damn about it. I mean, if someone were actually putting their own money into releasing my stuff, I'd be working MUCH harder on my stuff than I do now. I'd feel obligated. Another thing I don't get is constructive criticism. If I were signed to a label, they'd be giving me some idea of how to improve. Obviously I don't want anyone forcing me to 'compromise my vision' or whatever, but I simply don't have the time or energy to keep track of every little trend in the industry, which is what industry-people used to be paid to do. Then I'd be in the studio and the label guy would come in and say "Hey put some hand-claps in this mix, hand-claps are the latest trend. We'll sell twice as many copies if you add some hand-claps". Now that'd be good advice, and what do I care if some hand-claps in my track? Oh don't get me wrong, the label guy could just as easily not be doing his job very well, not keeping up on the latest trends, and hand-claps was actually last summer's trend and adding them to my mix will result in fewer sales.
By the way, those who think that if only they could make people aware of their webpage, they'd have sales - if that were true, why are bands like AC/DC and Guns N Roses striking up deals with retailers rather than just selling their albums from their website? The only band that got a lot of people to download their album from their website is Radiohead, and they had to give it away for free for that to happen (and remember they had 15 years of major-label investment creating brand awareness before that was even possible for them).
Places like CDbaby, like the old mp3.com, and now Myspace, are sadly vast wastelands. The only hope even the highest quality music from these sites have is some exec from Apple deciding to use their track in an Ipod commercial to pull them out of obscurity. The reality of the internet is an aggregate pyramid. Sure you can get everyone on Myspace, Facebook, and then you can claim your Twitters are going to make things even better for everyone! But the reality is that MySpace, Facebook and Twitter get all the power, it doesn't get 'democratized' among the 'Web 2.0 community' or whatever. It doesn't, it never has, and it never will. When the gleam wears off Twitter there will be another one and everyone will migrate there looking for the next greatest website to help them get ahead in life.
Unfortunately I don't have any answers, but at least I won't contradict myself nearly every day like Lefsetz.
One thing is for sure, there wouldn't be a constant stream of Sivers blogs about getting 'somewhere' in the music biz if nearly everyone in the music biz didn't want to get somewhere other than where they already are, in it. So that means there are a lot of disappointed people on CDBaby, all the time. In fact, I'll bet a significant portion have good paying, and psychologically rewarding non-industry jobs, and aren't per say, making music to make money. These people have stars in their eyes, and thanks to the internet, you don't even have to go to Hollywood to see the throngs of discarded hopefulls. Maybe the problem isn't the pathetic state of the music industry, but rather the pathetic state of western culture, where the cult of celebrity is the only measure of success in life anymore. Being a reliable provider for a family? That's for saps! Dire Straits' Money for Nothing video hit number one on MTV and Friday Night Videos back in 1988 (or 86, whenver it was), and rap videos have been repeating the mantra ever since, albeit without the irony.
I like CDBaby because it demonstrates that even a guy with good intentions can't save the world (or at least the part of the world that we want saved!).
Now, a lot of people make a lot of fuss over the amount of 'competition' they realize they have when they sell a CD on CDBaby. I doubt the competition is much greater, per capita, than it ever has been, but sites like Myspace and CDBaby just make it clearly visible. Perhaps some of this competition could be thinned out if the people who comprise it were to ask themselves if they'd be satisfied with a meager living, long gruelling road trips, and non-existence in the mainstream (ie no celebrity status). If you'd still like to be in the music industry under those conditions, congrats, you belong in the music industry, because that's exactly what you can expect- if you're talented, of course.
No one's going to help you? or everyone's going to help you? I prefer the second one...and i have foudn it to be so-as long as you REALLY want help, perhpas the truth for some of us is we're only looking for someone to do our dirty work- for free! do you acually know what you do? do you love what you do? really? if so, then just keep doing it...
I actually feel motivated by the idea of having to do things myself. It's reassuring in a way. You know you don't have to wait for somebody to come and make you happy. And that's true for everything...
I believe there's is a way of doing all these things. Your own way.
It's about being creative somehow. Like, if you only have a few notes and 2 chords (or less), you can still make an amazing composition...
Anyways, I wish everybody the best of luck and the inner peace, trust, focus, courage,... to do to what you do best.
Happy holidays.
erwin
I began my musical education at eighteen, with a year's worth of guitar lessons.
Several years later started jamming with a co worker who was far more accomplished than myself.
A few years later we formed a acoustic guitar duo Performing at a local resturaunt, along the way adding band members till we were a full five piece rock band.
Everyone more experienced than myself and because of that, eventually getting pushed out of the very band I started.
we remained friends, and they pitched in while I recorded my first solo CD "Time Frozen" in 1998.
Thier band sans me, quickly disolved while I contined to perform as a solo act.
A few years later some of my former bandmates helped me record "Swat's Candy Kitchen".
I formed the Kirby Swatosh Band(let try to kick me out of that one!)with many of the orignal band members and in 2004 opened for southern california rock group dada(my hereos).
with the Kirby Swatosh Band we released "About Time" in 2007, and I just finished my latest solo effort "Toys in the Static".
My lessons?
Many of my successes were because of stubborness and not knowing that I shouldn't be able to do what I did.
Surrounding my self with people more talented than me was key, and not holding a grudge for past discouragements.
Two years ago a friend of mine signed a one CD record deal. The record company invested 10,000 Euros to buy the masters off another label, and a year later my friend got to number 1 in Spain and grossed over 1 million Euros in sales and copyrights... Prior to that, he was not earning 5000 Pounds a month gigging... Help IS possible, like winning the jackpot on the lottery! Do not count on it too much, but be sure to be ready to receive it, if it should ever come your way... Merry Christmas Derek
PS When will you find time to listen to my new CD?..
Nobody has help me since 1990 that I started as a single musician, I have been working hard because of love for what I do and for the creative process, Hard times all times, Today I am working with a huge guy in the buisness, he is not helping me, he is making buisness with me, so am I with him, in the middle there is Respect, Professionalism and Joy.
dhruva Lance. (México).
We musicians live by illusion.
The illusion of fame,
The illusion of being worshiped,
The illusion that our music has the power to change the world.
The illusion that our music is as important to others as it is to ourselves - "THE most important thing in the world".
So... yes, it can be really discouraging to disclosure the reality of music business.
But the attraction to illusion is stronger than any reality so, the musicians will find a way to delude themselves again, turning the discourage into encourage.
Keep it coming, Derek, very nice and useful thinking.
Not having someone help us used to discourage me, now, I see it as a challenge. Our latest CD is self-recorded and self- produced, but when we needed to mix it down and master it, we paid for the right engineers with the skills to do it. That was a fairly large investment, but one that we'll be able to recover with CD sales. With the help of the Internet(which wasn't available 20 years ago), we have been able to get our current project out to people all over the world, and we are now being approached by people who are in a position to help us further. I've learned more about the Music Business in the last six months than I did the previous thirty years! It has been a very interesting ride!
hey, derek. your words come at an amazingly perfect time, as usual. i'd like to state for the record that i TOTALLY disagree with you. MANY people are more than willing to help you. perhaps it may not be what you think you want or expect, but there's always help if you ask for it. it's up to the individual to decide how to apply and use the help that's available. so, nope. it doesn't discourage me to hear that at all!
I understand what you are saying, at the same time it's not the whole truth from my perspective. While I've had to wear many, many hats and continue to do so, I've also recieved some incredibly valuable help along the way.
I thing that ultimately one does have to take responsibility for ones own success and keep at it doing whatever it takes until you manifest your desired outcome. At the same time asking for and being open to recieving help is reasonable. You may not always get it, but sometimes you do, and it makes all the difference in the world.
I don't believe anything should stand in your way of getting what you want...and I don't believe we should expect things to be done for us or people to pay our way. If you really want to get somewhere with your music...focus on what it is you have to do to get there. Hard work will pay off.
I've had doors shut in my face. I think in the early years I was discouraged...not anymore. I've come to expect that I will get to where I want to be, on my own.
Great post. I agree completely with what you're saying.
It's not more isolation that the independent musician has these days.. it's more freedom.
Fires me up just thinking about it.
I like to help people but I need help too sometimes. I found that most people surround me they are not really care about. It encourage me more self-supportive but discourage me to help others.:(
That's great news! Not that I haven't heard you, Ariel, David, and others say it before. It's incredibly liberating knowing that I don't have to worry about charming some third party into helping me. I can concentrate on what matters and makes sense for developing myself as an artist.
For me, it is about your own passion. If you're passionate about your music, then this is encouraging and motivating; if you're not passionate about and faithful in your music's potential, then this is discouraging. For me, it's mostly encouraging for the time being.
oh, the harsh truth. this is where 'how much do you want it' comes into play for me personally...
Derek, While I percieve that your report is a general truth based on the prevailing condition of the industry and society, personally, I would still find it very disappointing that no one is going to help me, because I still believe someone will. Sometimes, there are a few exceptions to the general condition. Nevertheless, if no one comes forward to help, because I see what I do as not only a career but a calling, I feel that I must continue forward with no courage being sapped away.
Derek,
Excellent question...and honestly saying "it's a wake-up call!" I will answer this question with a different approach according to the experiences I've gone thru then,here and now. Like Shakespare wrote "The whole world's a stage and no one else can play your part". I follow this and a saying:"Everytime you act,you add strength behind the motivating force to what you have done" I have tried a time to "reach-out" to very successful and prominent people to help me with no response...Derek what I relized is I've been getting help all along!! check this out,It's what YOU know that would help YOU, your education pertaining to your career,(teachers helping to guide you on the right path)and if your love for music is strong,then so will be your talent that determines your degree of professionalism and when you expose your talents you may get some responses to collab and/or work/play with some fine local and/or industry talent,(these are the Artist,musicians,producers,etc.that are helping(like a test) you) then add to your bio.that builds your status quo of independents/industry hands getting you ready bit by bit at a time. But it still takes me my belief in myself to continue what I want in this Music game and this in turn makes me a wild card because now I have the ability to work in and out of two forms of entities: 1-independent, 2-industry and belive me Derek this kind of energy gives me an edge...This is why I wrote a song called: "Living On The Edge of a Dream"...It's a feeling of knowing without knowing. So Derek believe me "They" are helping those who want to help themselves,it just looks like their not because it's such a slow-ass process(years, 20 and/or more)and appear to look like a break will never happen, but when I look back on my career,I found to have played with some of the Best,some of the greatest people in the music field living today.Derek the catch is there are "many levels and degrees" of success in music. some get paid for it, some don't and some get stuck in between the two extremes i've just mentioned.
When doing it for yourself. It's more rewarding and you don't have to point the finger at anyone if the "chips" don't fall your way.
It is the truth. No one will help so it would make me work harder (if I wasn't already). It seems that in the entertainment industry (which is extremely cutthroat) people in the industry only seem to "help" when you already have your ball rolling halfway down the hill but never want to help get it to the top. I have noticed that the ones who DO help are the fans and supporters. Those are the ones you should go to for help.
The more work you do the more you will get paid.
I'd rather sell 10,000 CD's at an $8 profit per CD-That's $80,000 for me.
To do it through a company and getting $1 per CD then you have to sell 80,000 CD's to make the same amount of money.
We love to play music and write and all that but at the end of the day if you call this your career then you should get paid and think about the financial aspect every step of the way too.
Five years ago I took a chance and had some of my songs mastered. I definitely had to invest in this process and definitely had no idea what to expect from other people I would show my "finished" music to.
Well, I took another chance and gave the cd to the local radio station, and next thing I know, Im getting a lot of airplay. This led to me releasing an album, getting named Electronica Artist of the Year by the New Tiimes, and eventually starting a legit record label, Circuitree Records.
I had always hoped that the many talented people around me would get excited about the label and want to help. Instead I found that although friends helped occasionally, mostly no one does anything for free, especially if you aren't already willing to do that task yourself.
So here I am, 20 grand spent later, as well as countless hours I will never get back, and I have come to this conclusion: I could have done it all in a simpler, wiser way, without borrowing money or paying other artists to be on my compilations (I wanted to be there next to the hot artist in order to get noticed), or hiring people to get involved. Sure I most likely would not have gotten to the same place on my own, but atleast I would have the feeling that I would have the sense that I dont owe another person a thing. Plus maybe all that time I spent on the label could have been spent, you know, making better music.
So the question to ask is what is really important to you? To make great music? Or be the cool new band in Pitchfork?
FOCUS ON YOUR ULTIMATE GOAL. LET THAT BE YOUR COMPASS. FOLLOW YOUR BLISS.
I had to learn the hard way.
Hi Derek - It's not just you. Although brutal honesty may be difficult to digest, honesty is important. We all get discouraged when we get tired - tired of doing it all and facing the reality of what it costs to support a musical career. It's best to be realisitc but it shouldn't discourage if what you are doing is for the right reasons. And then - I have met some of the greatest people on the planet since I took over the mission to continue a friend's musical legacy and as challenging as it all is MOST of the time, I wouldn't trade the friendships formed with these wonderful musicians and artists, who while struggling with their own survival and the survival of their craft have contributed in countless ways to help continue a fellow musician's legacy. We all just need to remember why we do what we do and to "find small ways to move towards the big picture."
Derek,
Point well taken, and I have some experiences that show you are right; you can't depend on some outside investor coming along to make things happen for you.
However, as Elly said, it's not that simple. I made a cd with horns, extra singers, and many musicians played for me out of friendship and the understanding that I would help them out if they needed me some day.
Studio owners charged me very kindly, and one engineer gave me a significant discount because he believed in what I was doing.
The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron? Musicians should read it. Synchronicity? It is real. Remember "God helps those who help themselves."
We should not be so impressed by our DIYness that we forget to be open to help from others. CDBaby helps! Thank you for being here!
Hi Derek,
Another possible answer would have been to ask that artist if they would be willing to check out the "Destiny Bridge" program put together by Dio guitarist Craig Goldy. For not a lot of $, Craig gives you a real shot at getting what your after by giving your music to the people you want to connect with. Managers, promoters, lables, etc. Derek, you did know this, right? I hope after all those emails you finally did talk with Craig & check out his program. You did, right? Artist need to know that although there's no guarantee , there is a way to make the connections they need.
I had that answer a couple of times when I was in the 20s (I am now in my 50s) and it never discouraged me and gave me the strength to go on and on. I know is difficult but that is the ONLY way we have.
Thanks Derek to focus everytime on something so important.
rob
It's encouraging, definitely--how could one possibly feel encouraged by the prospect of depending on others? DIY isn't simply an ethic--it's the ONLY option for most of us. But that doesn't mean we've got NO help.
The fact is, most of us who get anywhere at this have had a lot of help from others, starting with our own musician friends and colleagues, who share tips, contacts, gigs, and countless valuable minutiae (where to get a decent meal, etc).
Help comes most readily to those who help themselves. No one wants to take responsibility for your career--and you shouldn't want to give up that responsibility to anyone!
BUT, there are lots of folks--musicians, music business people, and fans--who are willing to help in particular and limited ways, if they see that their effort and kindness will actually result in something. If you want help, make it obvious that you're DOING something--then people will be much more interested in helping.
Hey now, Derek. You've received some excellent responses to your question. And as usual, you bring up very thought-provoking stuff. Once again, the circumstances appear to be in the "glass is half-full or half-empty" scenario. Nevertheless, I think many artists out there usually hang onto their platinum dreams. It keeps them moving forward in their pursuit of happiness and, hopefully, greater prosperity.
Performers need remember that none of the great ones actually started at the top. Even the "King" (Elvis Presley) had to carve his path with low-level agents until he "proved himself" to be the great artist and entertainer that he was. But again, there is always a price one must pay for greatness. It's an out-of-pocket and/or an out-of-freedom circumstance. Elvis attained a level where his literal freedom was dimished significantly. To me, that's a very heavy price to pay for fame and fortune. And I actually saw his experience with that, first-hand, backstage at the Hilton Hotel in Las Vegas.
My outlook is to garner the most comfortable living you can from the work you do. Build upon all of that for your future. And once you've attained a level that truly meets your needs, you can then take a little time to reflect on how you got there. During the interim, however, just stay confident and stay focused on the reality of your artistic pursuits. Learn and grow, and choose your steps wisely.
~DF
I guess this means you won't be calling me about the coaching job.
Okay, I understand!
Devin Theme
www.devintheme.com
The performance side of the music business is one which fosters immediate gratification between the Artist and audience.As such, competition, jealousy, and a general negativity pervade the culture within the artist community. I say, help as many of your fellow artists as possible. That help is no less invaluable both the giving of it and receiving, than if you were a scientist of sorts, assisting and/or mentoring emerging professionals where gratification may or in some cases, may not be immediately measurable.
Realizing this, I found a pretty simple answer to help myself:
I get out of bed and hit the phones for 3 hours at least 3 mornings a week. I keep detailed notes who I reached, who I left a message for, when to call back (when they have their new budget, when they usually do the scheduling, whether they adopted a new pet or had an anniversary). This way I've established a rapport. I make notes of my BOOKINGS! Afterwards, I write down how many attended, what got people dancing, what needs work. Repeat bookings have gotten MUCH easier this way.
I do see some folks with a real support network around them. I don't know what they're paying their publicist/ handler. But I found (booking one venue myself), that having a positive and mutually supportive attitude really helps. A long-time friend, spouse, family member can really help, even if they only take over one specific task, but do it consistently. So, with no money to throw at "professionals", I do cherish a little help from my friends.
Hi Derek,i hope you had a joyful holiday, didn't mean to take such a long time responding.Life isn't easy in my world, i am motivated by the Spirit of God, no human can discourage me, pleasing God is my only hope at this point, He has shown me the mind of man, i can't get caught up in it, just keep on creating and singing. I'll know how successful i am by how much money they make from my creative ideas. Love the information you give, i just don't know the computer, and no one want to help a Godly person. God bless you, i can call you a friend. A.T.B, keep the peace and love flowing.
Derek:
Great post... this is why I am not as active as I'd like to be. I was paying musicians to practice, and they'd come late, I had to pay for practice locations. After the gig I'd pay the musicians again, and I'd have about $15-$20 for myself, which didn't cover the outfit or the gas that I spent for that nite. I love music and singing, but could somebody make it easier to make a living off of it???? LOL This is why whenever I see the phrase... I LOL, "What would you do in life for no pay?" Because I'm already not getting paid.
Derek,
I find the question as you've phrased it to be ironic: "Nobody's going to help you". Yet you're in the business of helping musicians! Just reading this blog post and associated comments has actually been helpful. Thanks!
Making a good living from your musical endeavors is akin to winning the lottery. Best to have another motivation for playing music besides making a good living.
Terrill: Congrats! You're right. (Thank you!)
I really did mean for this to be just a thought-exercise, like “Assume nobody will help you. Now what?”
That way, if someone shows up to help - (which they often do!) - it will be a nice surprise but not something you're counting on.
Derek,
Generally people like helping other people. If they pick up the vibe that the person they are helping really is dedicated to their musical passion they usually go overboard to help. Business wise you can only do what you can do. Time is usually a factor because being in charge of creating the songs, playin the songs, recording the songs, promoting the songs, and trying to get ready to do it all over again, well those are a lot of jobs. Each is a full time job that deserves more time than we have available. This is my humble observation. Do your best each day and don't beat yourself up over things you can't control. If you are a writer write or if you are a player play and those things alone will sustain you. No matter what other people think success involves, it really involves you being happy doing what you do. Each song that I finish brings me a feeling of accomplishment that is priceless. Money, fame, or anything else won't bring that same feeling of accomplishment. If we do a deep internal search, then that feeling should be all we need. Sometimes we work hard and get some more stuff but it's never as good as that feeling of accomplishment.
Thanks,
Allen
Never slowed me down in fact it helped me get up earlier and work later.
Mark Daniel Chmiel:
owner/member of THE LIMIT,LLC
THE LIMIT rock trio, touring, press in the USA, Europe, Asia & S. America, music on sale internationally, supported: Steve Vai, Everclear, Disturbed, Buckcherry, members of Pearl Jam and more on tour....
contact me anytime people, I love to talk and listen.
mcpromotion@gmail.com
p.s. Derek, you're the man!
This is discouraging for me. I thrive on working in groups or collaborating with another person.
When I am on my own, I find myself not using my time wisely. As soon as someone else's time is at stake, I am the most productive person on the planet!
That is something I've known for a long time. Frankly speaking, no one has ever really helped the way I would have liked them to. I never get discouraged to the point where I stop trying. If you want someone else to believe in you, you must first believe in yourself. True success does not come easy,but those that are deligent shall succeed.
It is a very true and very frustrating fact that it's all up to one little tiny you. Or me, in this case. But it is truth and if you really want it, you've got to do it yourself.
Sometimes I get lost in the "one day someone will take all of this work off my hands and I can focus on writing and performing," which is a lovely thought, but that can never happen if I'm not doing it all right now. No one will come save you from the difficulty of it. You've got to do it yourself, because you love it, and for no other reason.
So yes, being reminded that no one is going to help is centering and keeps me focused. As well as scary and frustrating. Sounds like life, right?
PS...Thanks for your blogs Derek!
i would be encourage greatly....
Oggi la mia musica compie un anno di vita.Ho fatto tutto da solo ed i risultati sono che tra my space-you tube-news e comunicati stampa la mia musica è stata ascoltata circa 20.000 volte,non male per un artista sconosciuto che non ha avuto nessuna promozione.Non so ancora se ho venduto una sola canzone,ma una cosa la so,non bisogna aspettare gli altri che ti fanno diventare famosi,dobbiamo essere noi famosi,volere è potere.
Credo che questa sia la soluzione.
Tutto dipende da noi.
Way to go Derek,that is sound advice. I think the difference between those who would be encouraged or discouraged is just a matter of learning. In this biz eventually you realize that there is no one that can push a magic button and make you an overnight success. We have to let the doubts of others become the fuel that drives us to our dreams.
If nobody helps me I'm not helping
anibody. But when I feel me alone working for other musicians I'm sure they will help me ...
And this encourage me.
Paolo Sinigaglia
Italy
NO, NO, NO. To believe in yourself is the basic point for all, so this is not the problem. Dear Derek, Self consciousness it is not enough. I know I am a very good composer, singer, player, engineer. But I cannot do EVERYTHING professionally. I need some partner to help me doing something at the high level. So the Tao way is not enough. I will go on trying to find people not to have money, but to have cooperation. I need Internet experts who like my music and run all over the world with my songs etc.- The team make the strong winning.
seems to me we are all in this -- by this, I mean life -- together. an attitude of cooperation and respect for one's self and others is more useful than thinking no one will help. which is basically the same thing you intend by that, perhaps.
I suppose that honestly it is discouraging, but then again, we are musicians...so what else are we going to do? Whether we make money or not...we are lucky to be the ones that live our art.
With love and gratitude,
Joel Laviolette
and Rattletree Marimba
Here's one that sums it upp pretty good:
“If you don't design your own life plan, chances are you'll fall into someone else's plan! And guess what they have planned for you? Nothing much.”
Jim Rohn
Cheers,
Martin Lorentzson
I agree with most people on here, and wish I had enough time to read all 700 posts. I do not, however, so I would like to offer my assistance to anyone that needs it.
I believe strongly that I can help anyone with any problem, and that applies directly to artists/bands who want to spread the word about their music.
Feel free to contact me - Mondayma@gmail.com
Thanks and good luck!
-Matt
It's not that no one's going to help you. It's about finding those who will. Your friends and family are obvious choices (unless they hate you). Also, don't ask for help and expect them to do it for free even if they're willing to do so. I have a friend of a friend who's helping me re-designing my MySpace page. He said he'll do it for free, but I took him out to dinner anyway as a thank you. I just didn't want him to think that I'm taking advantage of him.
I didn't even read this blog for weeks because of the title, so I guess that means I'm discouraged by the thought that nobody will help me.
The most cherished part of making music is, for me, the collaboration with other musicians. This requires the involvement of other people and the feeling that "I'm in it by myself" - which is a feeling I experience discouragingly frequently - tends to contradict motivation. And happiness, and spiritual progress.
But I know these negative feelings will pass. Being in it by myself is still better than not being in it.
Great encouragement, Derek! Just posted a link to this on my Twitter page. "When you think that nobody’s going to help you, does that encourage you or discourage you?" At first, I get discouraged BUT am usually later fueled by the thot that 99% people will get discouraged and then quit AND THIS gives ME a better chance! Besides, I HATE when people tell me I can't do something!!!
Our first responsibility is to ourselves and then to help others in their responsibility to themselves. Encouragement and welfare comes from friends or relatives that love you or highly evolved souls on a spiritual level. The nature of business is for economic developement. So, no one is going to help you unless you help them make a profit. There is always room for magic or a simple twist of fate. Having faith in yourself is the most essential key. When times are rough the tough get going. Just love what you do and you are already successful. Peace
For me, it would be both. it would be discouraging at first because its hard doing things on your own exspecialy when it seems like you are swimming against the current. However, I'd realize the strength within myself to defeat the challenge and the feeling of accomplishment at the end is all worth it.
First, any artist that thinks anyone, other than a rich uncle, etc., would remotely invest that kind of money in an unproven career, needs to 'get over themselves'. Why do investors invest their money? Duh....to make more money.
Having said that, artist can make a living in music if they have talent, know how to connect with fans, create moments for those fans with their music and build a large fan base. Yes, you do need a decent voice, great music, and know how to entertain.
For an indie artist & their band to be successful, everyone must contribute to that success. Any musician that wants to be paid to practice should not be used....recognize there are many musicians in the world their sole objective is to make money for themselves....they could care less about making you successful...they could care less about touring as well. (Note: I am not condemning musicians...I have ran into musicians that want to be paid to practice & even paid to learn your music while they are at home working on it) One thing I know about the music business is there is nothing that surprises me.
But, if you want to become successful it comes down to how much time you want to comment out of your life to becoming successful? How many great songs you can write or find to record? How many true blue fans you can add to your fan base. WE work with artist to build a minimum fan base of 5,000 - 10,000. Trust me, if you can get to that level you will be able to support yourself, your band, and your tour. If you can only draw 25-100 people at each get, depending on the venue, you are not going to make much money....you will need another job.
Your success comes down to: How much do you "really" want music to be your sole source of income? Their are so many talented artist in the music business that don't understand why they have not become successful, etc.? They are under an illusion of all the support they got from family & close friends when they were performing in the 'rookie world'. Then, the day came when they ventured into the real world of music...a world that can be supportive and a world than can be non supportive depending on how you connect with them. Venue's don't care how great you can sing, instead, care about how many folks your act will bring out to their venue and more importantly how much money they spend while they are there. If you fans come out and sit there all night & drink pop or sweet tea, chances are you will not be invited back & getting that return invitation is what helps grow you career & build your booking base. Plus, if you and your band really suck, don't think for one minute all the venue owners won't spread the word about how bad you are.
There are two guys, in NYC that plays mostly on the street & at different subway stations. They play approximately 20 gigs / month & sell about 800 CD's / month at $10 each. Plus, they have other merch. & they make decent tips. Most band or artist think they are above this type work but, these guys are but one out of many that wanted a career in music & they found a non-glamorous way of making a living.
GOOD NEWS: Most bands can make a living, but, the entire band must be willing to make a 'fair share' contribution. Any band member that won't work on all phases of your career should be replaced as soon as possible....you need a team that works their butts off so everyone can enjoy the resulting benefits.
If you need help...let us know.
--End
Hey Derek, I think it is a good and a hard thing to remember for me. The idea of doing everything seems so overwhelming, but I am reminded of the suggestion you made to 'stop doing the things you don't like and find someone else to do them so you can focus on what you're good at.' That is the biggest thing I need to remember and implement.
I have to be willing to trust another person enough to let them do something small if they want to and already be doing it myself so that I can explain what needs to be done.
This was really good to read and a very good reminder to keep doing more and growing in the areas that make you afraid.
Thanks,
Andrew Hand
http://andrewhand.com
http://songsforoprah.com
As musicians, we don't want to let our own convictions consume us. Don't use your strength to take advantage of the weak. Work with your hands so you can give to others in need not seeing your own profit but the profit of the many. Ask yourself who examines your heart and always be thankful as you persue the things that make peace and the building up of one another.
Be an example to the flock. Pray, listen and learn and answer positively. Like a band or choir, we must have a central unity for a harmonious end result.
Right on. I wish I had come to realize the wisdom reflected in Derek's post many years ago.
I've taken it a step further by totally giving up on any kind of financial success. It's taken many years of mistakes compounded by squandered opportunities compounded by age compounded by having a family compounded by simply becoming sick and tired of it. The funny thing is that now -- after 25 years of professional music making -- I'm free of my own baggage and I'm making by far the best music of my life. I finally have a product that in my heart I know is worth recognition, but I'm completely happy in the knowledge that I won't get any. I'm peaking in the worst economy of my lifetime, have a kid ready for college, and a good day job. I don't have time for anything but recording. No time to market anything, no $$ to spend on it, and no time to gig regularly. I'm done. But at the same time, I'm more into the core of what music means to me than ever before. That's really what it's about for me, I'm discovering. I've learned so much the hard way, that if my youngest (a budding guitar virtuoso) wants to give it a professional whirl, I'm definitely equipped to be her guidance counselor. Anyway, I'm rambling with no real point other than to say focus on your music, never let your ambitions overtake your actual work and be smart. Don't jump, think. Always make sure you're putting your best foot forward. Take your music directly to the people and stop dreaming that some suit will come in, bankroll you, and put you in Madison Square Garden. In the end, even if you don't "make it," you'll have created some art that you can live with.
Derek,
Thanks for the column. I think the "hard" road of not expecting anything and working 24 hours a day to move 1 inch in this business is the only thing you can count on. But those inches add up to feet, and over years miles. And these travels I believe shape us and best of all is shows up in the music-- people can tell you've earned your distance. The phone calls, shedding, small gigs on snowy nights, flat tires, emails, fighting societal pressures, staying true to your hearts wish...this true hard work earns you an ability to write and perform a certain "intangible" way. Best of all, momentum built on hard work is the ultimate advertisement for an agent and investor.
I wish everybody prosperity, success in their journeys.
MM
It can be discouraging, if you allow it to be. I think you have to decide why you're in the music business. If you're in it for the money, get out now. If you're in it because you HAVE TO BE, because you have to write songs and express yourself, then all the negativity in the world won't stop you. You'll do it anyway, because you have to.
If you believe in what you're doing, there's an audience for it. If you build it, they will come. Don't expect an immediate payoff. You won't get rich overnight. Plan to keep the day job to finance your music. Be your own investor. Keep everything in house as much as you can and focus on making the songs, and your live show, as good as they can possibly be.
I'm kind of a control freak anyway, so once you've got other people footing the bill or expecting to make money off of you, it gets a lot less enjoyable for me, because I have to answer to those people. I can't write whatever I want to without thinking about the commercial aspects. It becomes a job at that point.
Totally dig. It doesn't discourage me at all -- makes me feel good about where I sit right now in the business. And it encourages me to work harder.
It's true that no one is there to help independent musicians without trying to get something in exchange. That has been a motivating factor for me to do something about that. I have been around musicians all my life, played in bands for 15 years myself and I wanted to try to give back to indie musicians(I like underdogs) so I started a musicians advocate company that lists thousands of resources to help independent musicians produce, sell and support their music. It's free and my way I trying to give back. So hopefully somebody is going to help you, MusicNomad.com. Check it out and drop us a line if you found it helpful or want us to expand areas. We are only 6 months old so still working on it. Also, we sponsor non-profits that bring music instructors and instruments to underserved children in an effort to give the gift of music as everyone deserves music.
Thank you Derek for the honest and realistic advices!
For myself I experienced the work as an independent musician/songwriter as very time consuming and not rewarding enough. Maybe I make something wrong until these days!
In the past I tried to think economicaly and get the money back I had to spent for every gig/studio-session. But for the future I think I will change my attitude about money-music. Music is rewarding myself already (without money) when I like to play it! So the value of the music I like to play is also something that can/could/should motivate me for future experiences!
But what I feel and experienced and somehow dislike is that the "job" or profession as a musician is not paid enough! Maybe this is because we do art and are no profit centers ?!
Nobody is going to help you, should be all the motivation that you need. Also until you are all out of back up plans...then and only then will you focus on your gifts and talents. As long as you have something else to fall back on...you will never give it 100%..just ask anyone that has made it...they had nothing else except music and when it gets like that..you have no choice but to succeed or die!
The Gandhi quote applies:
"Be the change you wish to see in the world"
I am sitting here after years of trying to convince myself that, surely someone--some day-- will recognize the quality of my songs and give me my "break," but I know deep down it isn't going to work that way.
Part of me thinks it's the artist's lot to have to struggle, but part of me gets indignant that we are expected to be everything: manager, booking agent, PR rep, tech wiz, web designer, lawyer, oh yeah, and musician. Not many professions require all of this expertise. It's because people aren't willing to pay for music any more, I think.
So, yes, by all means play and create because you love it. I know that's why I do it. Whatever fuels the fire to make good music is fine by me. The money you make is a bonus.
I have been a songwriter and poet since age 8 and had my 1st performance at age 12. I hold the record for being the youngest artist with an album on itunes (2007, I was 17). The Local music scene in Boston and New England is growing stronger than ever, but in ALL reality, in ALL truth, nobody will ever give you anything. Every single person you come across in this music industry will attempt to gain revenue or exposure from you. Its an equal trade money in exchange for goods, resource for resource, favor for favor.
Reverbnation.com/kthao
-over 3.5 million hits
-Over 3,500 documented fans
Myspace.com/kashthaovadose
-Over 25,000 profile views
OVER 30,000 TOTAL INTERNET PLAYS!
There are some who will never agree with you or support your music but if you really have something worthwhile to say with your art then just do what is in your heart and the people will come and gather 'round you.
Until musicians stop looking at music as their cash cows, things wont change. Create music because you LOVE to create it. Do it well, do it with passion, and invest in yourself.
You can get saved from Indie Hell. Its all up to YOU!
ITS CUTTHROAT I NEED MORE PLAYS 4 WEEKS STRAT ON REVRBNATION 4 MY CITY THA DMI PLEASE HELP ME GET PLAYED MOO IF POSSIBLO ALSO CHECKOUT ILIKE,MYSPACE,GARAGEBAND,OURSTAGE,TWITTER,IMEEM,ECHOBOOST,INDIECHARTS THANKU .
Music depends on the power of the artist and musicians..
Just when I make and play music I cant feel encouraged about this.
And then... the success become real
someone has to make this happen... for real.
Well, sometimes everybody needs some help to get forward indeed. But it's better not to expect anyone to help you on. Anyway - if it comes to this, you can appreciate help most by knowing you did EVERTHING you could before to help yourself. Then you'll both feel OK - the helper and you.
Wow!!
THIS many comments!!
But this an awesome topic...
For myself, I AM encouraged by the thought that 'nobody is coming' - it's all UP TO YOU...
Take your power BACK.
As it happens, I am in this situation RIGHT NOW...
I am well-educated, about to finish my first novel, and looking for work at the moment.
I am in Australia (Sydney) - and the situation with presenting yourself to job agencies (who have a lot of the access to jobs)
- is that they promise you 'the world' - and give you NOTHING.
This is apalling.
And yet, I'm finding my FIRE - and my truth is THIS: I WILL have my book published next year, and it WILL be a freaking HUGE success - and that will be MY ACHIEVEMENT (and it also belongs to those who DID help me and stood by me...)
I WILL find EXACTLY the work I am looking for - and, eventually, those who promised and did NOT deliver - they will be the SORRY ones.
Get out there and DO IT ON YOUR OWN!!!
Make it happen FOR YOURSELF...
Good Luck!!!!
Hey!
I find it actually discouraging! I really wish and want for that positive attitude but after really giving my all, in recording, preforming, advertising... I would just like something or someone to say hey your doing good! Keep up that good work!
both. u may become more determine. but noone could do anything by them selves
I never start a project with the expectationI will get help with it, (even when it seems I might need some). I start the project.
It has happened most often that I could do/figure/manage all that I thought I might need help with, less often someone shows up.
If I cry for help and none replies, I redouble by effort and continue to survive!
cMh
"Help others and you might be surprised what comes your way."
Everyone has a want. If by helping you they can fulfill their want, they will do so.
Although no one wants to help you, if you want to help them first, they will in return help you.
If no body will help you that may be discourage you. But if you can do every thing by yourself and made good results then you will always encourage by yourself and also by others
I agree totally with your POV...just so you know...I was the guy who introduced the In Ear monitor to the music world...I molded STEVIE WONDER'S Ears ...and many more...NO One thought it would work...LOL...I knew it was the future...and now it is History...so my Intention to help the inventor HELP Millions of musicians came true...I have been apart of many moments that help change history...my company is also changing history for Actors...
Just visit my sites...THE LINKS are the real story...one site leads to another ...and LINKAGE is the future...
Soon a Book will be out like no other...and yes...you have to do THE WORK....
You are a wonderful soul ...and I would enjoy making a Documentary about you ...short film so it could be on your site...
I think it's great to hear no one is going to help you. That way it's all you on you to "make it" or "break it". Your success does not depend or rely on anyone but yourself. I think its empowering.
The idea that nobody can help me and that I have to do it myself encourages me. I am totaly aware that I have to do it myself and that I'm the only one to take action. And I have also learned that asking help is a good thing. I really had to learn this. What I think is good about it, that when you ask help, you get thoughts, comments and ideas that you haven't figured out yourself. It can help to make the right decision or to take a different route. When nobody would ask help anymore, life wouldn't be as meaningful and exciting as it is now.
Some great points here, and plenty more in the comments.
Managers, agents, labels and the like are business partners – you need to create a mutually beneficial relationship to make it work with them.
Remember that every aspect of your business that you farm out or sign away to someone else is one more thing that you don't control. So make sure you do it for the right reasons, with the right people.
Don't get too hung up on money or fame. Neither last.
You probably won't be able to do it all yourself forever, and you must constantly be building a team of people you trust and ensure that they are being compensated fairly for their work.
...Just be sure to enjoy the freedom and crazy fun that comes with doing everything yourself while you still can!
iain McLaughlin,
Sunshine And Decay.
Most of the lessons I learned from my parents came by was of observation (as do most valuable lessons) rather than a more, oh, Socratic approach. But one very concise and pithy bit of wisdom she made sure I understood as soon as I could walk was this:
"To rely on others is to be disappointed."
My life's experiences have proven that, with the sole exception of my wife, she was correct.
It's not cynical when it's true.
music too your ears check it out!
sivers, dude ... you are quite right that nobodys' gonna help anybody, its really up to the motivation of the individual at first... but later down the line people with the same interest do help each other out.. but it all begins, starts with 'YOU'.
stick with it.. u have to really wanna make it to succeed in this business! some advice- id check out this company named registermymusic.com their artist are on billboard every week and they do all ur airplay tracking-
Chris
KISS FM
I wanted to be the lucky 761st responder. See, 7 is 6 plus 1 . oh, wow !! Have you ever been the 761st responder? I doubt it !
What's really amazing is that this simple post has gotten so many responses, and it's not even sent out to the world, but to just the world of musicians trying to get a gig. YOu hit a nerve. And I like your answer, because its so much about working on what you CAN control.
I think your answer was incredibly helpful.
It was honest.
It was true.
People rarely take the time to share that kind of knowledge, the kind that is a kick in the backside, that says if you really, really want this you have to work hard but here are some tips to get you started.
Well, I have to admit this is showing itself to be true...but even more head scratching is that many who "might" help (in my case a major label with the money and contacts) often don't know what to do...so what's the difference?
Initially, having nobody to help used to make me feel 'stuck'.
But I realize when I start *doing* the best I can in those circumstances, it takes away focus from the 'being stuck' feeling, and before I know it I am well on my way to being where I want to be.
And I like to keep reminding myself that I always do the best I can, and my best changes each time. It's different when I am healthy, it different when I am ill, it is different when I am tired, it is different when I am happy.
The bank won't loan money unless you don't need it. It's the same in life. Nobody wants to be around a loser. Your attitude is your altitude. Keep the spirits up and keep chipping away. Someday that big tree will fall.
I found out, when I was still a teenager, that no ones does anything for you. So I did everything myself and have been my own counselor all my life. And I have won.
If you lve your life so that you do not need "help" then when you recieve good honest help to make this better. You can accepted it, use it and reward the help. It will make things better for you.
So many times when you are doing well "help" will turn out to be evil. Caution is advised.
i am going to release 5 songs next year, and knowing that nobody will help me encourages me a little because i have nothing to lose.
but it's discouraging also because the possibility of not making it is huge in music.
I don't think about whether someone is gonna help me or not, i just do what i want.
Personally, I think your answer is most discouraging - although that seems to be the current attitude in the Music Business (and just about everything else in this Country) You're so right - though, it's cynical and it's 'Every Man/Woman for him/herself - so, why even BOTHER to write a book that for the most part, except to make you a few bucks, will NOT help most people.
Reason this Country has gone downhill, is the amount of Greed by the Business People who oversee the Creative one (who do all the dirty work) and then make all the 'Business' types super-rich.
So, People, save your Money, and make it anyway you can - preferably on your own, if you have the strength, fortitude & PRESERVERANCE - BELIEVE IN YOURSELF, and let these 'Business' types go to HELL! The BEST feeling in the World - is that you made it on your own, and have NO ONE you owe ANYTHING TO, so do lots or research - pay your way for expertise AS YOU GO, and then take the plunge and do what you love Best - Music. Best of Luck!
The truth is simply the truth. And it's always best to hear it. Encouragement or discouragement is ultimately found inside. I'm not sure whether I'm en or dis-couraged. I do know that I am NOT surprised. Even if the musicScape had not changed, your direction, your decisions and your destination are all up to you. Or in this case...moi!
I must say its discouraging...we are out here working our ass off because we want to get discovered and ding a light switch just went off in my head and Derek Sivers you might be genius because we havent been out working for someone we've been out here working for ourselves...
"SELF ESTABLISHMENT" that's the quote for the newyear so happy
"SELF ESTABLISHMENT"
Thanks Derek. Some of the greatest gifts I've received have been *not* getting what I thought I wanted.
Traveling is at least as good as arriving (e.g., half of acting is reacting, music is as much what you don't play as what you do), and the path is actually what it is all about.
Deming said, "Without a theory, there is no learning." The theory need not be right. You just need to have it, act upon it, reflect upon it, and act upon that reflection.
You are all delusional. I guarantee that everyone has received help from someone along the way. So what you have here is a list of 773 people who have neglected to thank at least one someone, who without their (apparently unnoticed, unrecognized & surely unacknowledged) help, would not be where they are today.
Well, I would say it's all circumstantial. Some are quick to ask for help, so it can be a rather immediate motivational reaction for them not to get it. But if one is exhausted, tried their hardest and still can't find resolve, then being declined help of any sort can be a solid coin toss between devastation and inspiration to try even harder.
Personally, it takes a while for me to reach out for a helping hand. I can see myself being discouraged by the lack of support before picking myself up to try again, try harder, try a new approach.
I am a singer/songwriter with this very question on my mind lately. I am on the verge of releasing my first album with my partner, and we are asking, "How can we build our virtual presence enough to catch the attention of real people?"
If your friend needs $500,000 to begin something, he's thinking in the wrong direction. And this is the lesson I reinforce to myself every day:
Question: "What can I do today, right now, with what I have to work with?"
Answer: "A hell of a lot more than most people think."
I think I get so much help from so many people that it's unbelievable.....its really about being able to recognise it as such. All these articles and responses have been help to my knowledge, links, networks, what to try, contacts and so forth. Your response to that guy was helpful - whether it was the answer he wanted or not, that was how you helped him.
As for being encouraged or discouraged - that can be different on different days! I wouldnt worry about it at all, just keep in the game and keep going!
Mr.Will
It is the difference from being dependent or independent.
I thought the boat picture was interesting.
It made me think if I was lost at sea - what would help me survive? To get discouraged and hope someone would come along and save me, or to get motivated to insure that I did.
I think before we worry about the big investment, we need to reassess why we are doing music? If we're doing it for social value, we'll invest our whole selves and every moment will be sheer bliss. If we're doing music to stroke our egos, Yuk. Take a number.
Thank you, I find it encouraging.
Hmm. I think then that only I can sabotage myself. Not needing to go around the world to find that out, it has worked that way for me. I am the most important person in the world. AND. . . people help me all the time because I have put myself in front of them. Telling them that I can do something or simply doing what I love in the openess oth view.
I have enjoyed catching up on your TED videos, Thanks !!
Unless you are a highly dependant kind of person, you shouldn't be expecting anyone's help to start with, so I fail to understand how it can be encouraging (or not)
Turn what you're asking around - would it be reasonable if someone you didn't know asked you for the same help?
Your friend asking for $500,000 and a good agent is asking for the sorts of things he'd probably refuse to give a stranger. Now, maybe there are good reasons for such a refusal ("I don't have $500,000; I don't know how to be a good agent!"), but nonetheless, he's asking for something he wouldn't give.
If, on the other hand, he asks for advice like "where's the best place in town for an up-and-coming band to gig?", or "can you help me record a first album to sell at my gigs", he's more likely to get help. These are things he'd give if asked for, even if the answers are going to be a bit vague ("well, I can help, but I'm not really a sound engineer, so it'll sound bad. The Zodiac's been nice to me, but I'm not sure it's an ideal place for an up-and-coming band - the audience doesn't buy CDs, and there's a distinct lack of talent scouts.").
Basically, keep what you're asking for reasonable, and people are likely to help. Ask for the big bucks, and they're not.
Thank you, Derek. Nothing's more encouraging than a reality check
I do not do music but other creative work. I am not necessarily encouraged by the reality that no one will help-- I am not discouraged either. However, to understand why pleas for "help" are so common, keep in mind that much of the help needed is about things I do *not* want to learn and do-- internet marketing, promotion, and distribution skills have little to do with what I think of as my own core competencies, and even less to do with how I want to spend my precious remaining time on earth.
But of course one does what one must because, encouraging or otherwise, the fact is that no one will help until you are already successful and generating significant cash. You do your fellow artists a service by reminding us of this simple fact.
My take on this is that, if you really and honestly think about the successes you've had from working on it "by yourself", in most of those cases there would be another person involved that caused the success. That's not a cynical point of view at all, it's just my take on the reality of these situations.
The thing you have to remember is that your's and my "success" comes from the fact that our positive "directed energy" will rub off on that person in a positive way, and as such they have, at some point, allowed themselves to remain, or become more, open minded towards your project, and like a string tied to another string, things from there fell into place for your working relationship with that person.
That's something I've always felt, even before I turned into a musician at age 17.
-Ian S.
/minusian@gmail.com
Cynicism breeds cynicism! I can say that if a person, who eventually succeeded, received no help from anyone along the way, and was even shown a cold shoulder from several people on simple things like advice, which I have been; What do you think the chances are they will help anyone when they are successful? I would say less than zero. This kind of senseless do it all on your own mentality people have only breeds more cynicism in the world!
when they are successful? I would say less than zero. This kind of senseless do it all on your own mentality people have only breeds more cynicism in the world!
Came from a site that talked about this (nobody is going to help you). And it doesn't discourage me. You have to expect little from people. It's at the center of who we are (egocentric); the always expected thought of "what's in it for me".
So with that said, I do what I can. Most people will come to you because they have an interest in you if you are any good. You have to make that happen, by yourself.
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