Fish don't know they're in water
2011-06-19
Fish don't know they're in water.
If you tried to explain it, they'd say, “Water? What's water?”
They're so surrounded by it, that it's impossible to see.
They can't see it until they get outside of it.
This is how I feel about culture.
We're so surrounded by people who think like us, that it's impossible to see that what we think are universal truths are just our local culture.
We can't see it until we get outside of it.
I was born in California and grew up with what I felt was a normal upbringing with normal values.
I was speaking to a business school class here in Singapore. I asked, “How many people would like to start their own company some day?” In a room of 50 people, only one hand (reluctantly) went up.
If I would have asked this question to a room of 50 business school students in California, 51 hands would have gone up. (Someone would have run in from the hallway just to raise their hand.)
Thinking maybe they were just shy, I asked, “Really!? Why not?” - and asked individuals. Their answers:
- “Why take the risk? I just want security.”
- “I spent all this money on school, and need to make it back.”
- “If I fail, it would be a huge embarassment to my family.”
Then I realized my local American culture. The land of entrepreneurs and over-confidence. I had heard this before, but I hadn't really felt it until I could see it from a distance.
All of my Singaporean friends live with their parents. Even pretty successful ones, even married ones, even up to age 35, live with their parents at their parents' home.
When I told one that I left home at 17, she was horrified. She said, “Isn't that horribly insulting to your parents? Weren't they devastated?”
Then I realized my local American culture again. The emphasis on individualism, rebellion, following your dreams. I had heard this before, but I hadn't really felt it until I could see it from a distance.
My culture isn't in the center. It's off on the edge, like one petal in a flower, like they all are. Not right or wrong - just one of many options.
Yes, the rest of the world can enjoy a good laugh at the stereotypical American - just now realizing he's not the center of the universe.
I'm just a fish who didn't know he was in water.
UPDATE: A few people have linked me to this David Foster Wallace speech. Wow. I don't remember ever reading this, but I must have, long ago. Wild what our subconscious remembers.
Great article! Simple, and what some of us feel about Singapore, but really well articulated. I'm forwarding this to friends right away!
Have you ever read David Foster Wallace's This is Water? Awesome.
Whoa. Wow. I didn't remember this. Weird. Thank you. -- Derek
Now imagine how difficult is to have a different idea or thinking living in your own country culture
Well stated, friend. "Context is everything"... and we learn it over and over again. -MD
Great perspective!
Living in Cambridge, another town where everyone lives and breathes startups, startups, STARTUPS!, I found this a valuable reminder that not everyone, everywhere thinks this way. And it doesn't make us right or them right or us wrong or them wrong.
Also, your title reminded me of David Foster Wallace's brilliant essay "This Is Water".
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178211966454607.html
Thanks for finding the link! Updating the post with this. -- Derek
I feel unsuccessful if I don't create my own startup today.
It's not where you went to school, it's what you started and shipped.
refreshing article, I love it.
I am from mainland China, a country boy actually.
but I love a bit of uncertainty out of my life. anyway, we are mortal, no one going to secure you out of death. So what can you lose?
Hey Derek,
Great article! Water in different countries is so different. Of course a lot of actual water is now owned by CocaCola and then bottled and put in plastic and sold to us because...? Here in Australia our cultural water has been diluted by American cultural water (which is a bit yellow'ish) and denial that water can in fact heat up (the oceans)because of human activity. The water if denial tastes sweet at first but can kill you. On ya
A good reminder...easy to think that "our way" is the only way.
Great! This is how I feel about the air.
Derek,
I mentor kids in the Junior Achievement organization and you'd see about half the hands go up when asked about owning your own business.
Don't just see culture as American versus others, see it in a region, state, town, company, school, church, organization, industry, law, gender, age, etc. Until I wrote my first book, I never would have taken an interest in typography and book design, now I these issues all over the place, and even my wife gets in the act.
But here's an interesting thought: how about American kids living at home and helping their parents, sort of combing both cultures. Think of success is not "having ones own stuff" but letting your parents have an easier time after raising you.
Having lived in Europe, it's not unusual to see multiple generations living together by necessity.
Just a thought or two.
Thanks Derek I needed this message tonight, it makes a good status.
Awww, reminds me of the book 'the little prince', then again, we should all reflect once in a while and realize that life's time frame is usually 1 step forward and then 2 steps backwards.
Derek,
America these days is very much like Singapore. The entrepreneurial spirit which was once the hallmark of the American dream has been crushed by an educational system which emphasizes the Status Que that rewards winning as opposed to learning. So yes Derek, your culture is YOUR CULTURE however it is not reflective of the prevalent culture of American Youth today!
Reminds me of some of our first trips to Spain. It was so great to get to bring friends like Storm and Nikki to Europe for the first time with our music and watch them experience it through new eyes. My favorite quote from those tours was "Distance lends perspective". Take care Derek. -AM
Profound simplicity...of which we need more within and between cultures. Thank you, Derek. Happy swimming!
A person doesn't really understand their own country and culture until they've lived in a foreign country and have something to contrast it against. Every ex-pat American understand the quest for pizza.
It is generally said of Singaporeans that when taking decisions, they tend to think of what happens if everything goes wrong, hence the low risk taking, while american culture seems to instill (extreme?) optimism, thinking of the returns if everything goes right. The government and the VC culture have prolly reenforced that thinking in each country.
What is interesting to me here is that I have heard plenty of people saying that the next generation of Sporeans are more open and ready to take risks; obviously not in line with your experience there.
Brilliant DS! Great perspective changer. I lived with parents in law for 9 months after a 3 month trip (we'd rented out our own home) I imagined we'd find it tough. The truth was, it was a brilliant, relaxed, economical 9 months. We still miss it! #accepted #cultural #norms?
yeah-ive lived my whole [except two years in the army]out of the box-on the edge. so at 76yrs paying dues-and and having had many laughs and tears and ups and downs etc my concept of happiness is what ever grooves ya. as long as you do not fuck over anyone else. some people are down with white bread-some dig wheat.point being-happiness is a abstract frame of refrence when the queen of england stubs her toe it hurts her--and even with all her materal toys -shes not happy.keep on spreadin the good word my man--best, MORT WEISS
I feel that this is even a locality difference. I am originally from Indianapolis and moved to Anderson, where there is alot of talent but low drive to record or go beyond being in a bar band.
Always worth reading, Derek. Reminds me of Einstein's line that "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Most of our knowledge is socially-mediated so even in our learning we are insulated (that's why getting outside our circle is important). If we can transcend ego, the self-referential part of us which tends toward over-reaction, (ego mania or introversion) we can honestly listen, learn, overcome fear, and grow. Thanks.
Yes. I realized this when I was trying to explain it to someone, and had a book thrown at me, back when I was in college, majoring in anthropology.
Made me pretty careful who I talked with about it thereafter...
thw only good thing human being living in the us will grab any opprtunity ..not thinking the end of it ..a good way of making it..in the unversal world of business
Derek - great writing, as always!
I grew up in Russia, and from what you wrote, I see many similarities betw. Russia and Singapore in terms of entrepreneurial spirit(or lack thereof) in people.
I came to America when I was 15 and pretty much immediately felt that American go-getter attitide was something I've always had in me, yet it never quite bloomed fully until I came to America. So.... I am a happy fish in my California waters now
Hi,Derek,
Confucius once said：“父母在，不远游，游必有方。” which approximately
means if your parents are old you'd better not travel far away from them for a long time. If you have to you should tell them where you're going and when will you be back. And be sure you have arranged all the things for them when you're away.
There are many Chinese in Singapore maybe they're doing what Confucius said.
Interesting! I had heard that it's influenced by Confuciucian culture, but I didn't realize it was this specific. Thank you. -- Derek
Hi, Derek.
Coincidentally, I just wrote the following poem along a similar vein for Elephant Journal, as an attempt to explain the Bhagavad Gita:
Gita for a Fish.
Bob Weisenberg
Yoga Editor
Elephant Journal
Looking outside in is one possible stepping stone. Living in SG one has the opportunity to see many different ideas about culture in action (recommended reading: Culture Shock Singapore --- and for another reflection on your upbringing: Culture Shock USA - not sure if there's a California version in that book series), that makes it such a nice place to be.
But the rift exists not only between countries, but also life situations, the most drastic one having offspring While it doesn't need to curb spontaneity, it alters perspective and sense of duty (along the lines of that Indian proverb "Once I thought live is duty, but then I learned the duty was joy"). Despite all the cultural differences I found what is driving us reassuringly similar: longing for autonomy, aspiration of mastery and quest for purpose. Luckily these can be expressed in so many ways.
If you don't remember reading that David Foster Wallace essay, you probably didn't. I hadn't read it, but I'd heard the "fish doesn't know it's in water" thing before 2005.
Nice thoughts, either way.
"Yes, the rest of the world can enjoy a good laugh at the stereotypical American - just now realizing he's not the center of the universe."
I think what you actually experienced here is a culture of motivation vs. one of demotivation. ie: "Follow your dream" vs. "Screw your dream, do what's safe, you're too stupid to achieve anything higher." Imagine if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs was one of these students you were speaking to.
Not such a revelation when you grow up with migrant parents.
Well I'd say the difference here is that some fish think they are in a fish tank, but other know they are in the ocean.
Hi Derek...
Loved this post! I can totally relate. I worked as an international travel guide for 9 years, living in 13 different countries during that time. It's such an amazing and enlightening thing when you start realizing that "our" way is just "a" way not "the" way. I have to say though, it's VERY frustrating when you return back to the water and try to express the perspective you've learned to the fish back in the water. They look at you like a fish with your head cut off.
Thanks for your thoughts!
I think about things like this a lot. There are a lot of subcultures in the USA, and even they can have these kind of differences and misunderstandings between each other.
Yes! Every country has its own subcultures. Even a little dot like Singapore has classism and quite different cultures inside of it. -- Derek
Hi Derek, I thought about this a while back and wrote a fun little song called "Another Fish Story", about not being able to see what's right in front of you, and did a funny little treatment of my voice and animation of a fish swimming through stars .... http://www.theawayteam.com/sound/pages/fishy.html
It took a couple of years away...living in Europe before I could see America as just a nation among a world filled with other equally important and self-sufficient nations.
I think creative thoughts flow in a stream as well...the best ones happen when physical tools become available and creative minds naturally begin to think of new ways to use them...I think this is evolution of thought and deeds.
My thoughts are so new...like a revelation...I don't know if I've expressed them properly in the heat of the moment...I'll have a mull because this is very important on many levels.
yes, you realize our culture isn't the center of the universe but then you must admit the land of entrepreneurs and over-confidence has drivin America to be the best and most advanced country in the world in many areas. Even our current administration as left thinking as they are still emphasize rebellion,follow your dreams and individualism,even though the individualism is promoted more as a group individualism as in the old commune style rebelling as a group together hippie days- ah, remember those hippie days? -but the truth to the matter is we can't force or convince other cultures that ours is the best way- we just have to prove it.(there's that cocky over-confident attitude again-what can I say-it's in our culturel)
The cultural difference you are describing here is the reason why so many people want to emigrate to the US. Having spent 3 years in the States (the first year as a foreign exchange student), I fell in love with that attitude, realizing that this was what I've always been striving for myself.
Nowadays, there's a lot of bad news about the US. But then I always try to remember that great spirit that I've found over there. I hope you guys never let that die.
Nice and true post! One hint though: They live with their parents for so long because under the HDB housing scheme they can only apply for a house with the age of 35 or when they marry. Renting a condo would be stupid because it is much more expensive. Singaporeans actually hate this and many young ones dream of leaving the country (!) only to get away from their parents faster. It is also the reason why so many couples here marry at such young ages.
Thanks, Derek.
For those who have parents from different cultures or are growing up in a culture different from their parents, there is a phrase called "TCK"s or Third Culture Kids. If you are one, consider doing some internet searches on the topic. It could help find your niche in the world of cross-culture experiences.
I live in a very multi-cultural area. (I am Canadian born from British decent.) Many many different ethnicities. The Asian families are very oriented to tests, grades, something that is very succinct, definable. Incredibly hard working with a huge respect for family's and honor.(Which makes sense that as a culture risk taking would be very uncomfortable and foreign to them.) It has its burdens, we have seen many children burn out and become very sick. However, we have also seen much honor. It makes me look at how I raise my own children and how I behave and see where I can learn from other cultures. I could be working harder! We are blessed with many Iranians, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, East Indians, but to name a few, many who were born here or have immigrated. Its amazing to drive across town to "Little India" and have amazing curry, visits the stores and people, and on the way home, stop in China town for coconut buns, and we could drive down our own main street in our area and stop in the Iranian stores for all the dried fruits and nuts, fresh fruit and veggies. This is but a few of the blessings of learning, living and viewing through others eyes.
A great reminder Derek, thanks.
I still would very much tend to encourage people to be entrepreneurs regardless of global cultural memes any where on the face of this planet.
Simply we need wealth to be better distributed.
this will hopefully be more easily accomplished in the hands of droves of entrepreneurial activity toward micro subsistence entrepreneurialism on the global scale.
quit your jobs, sell your houses, get rid of your cars and be nomadic entrepreneurs.. don't feed the old system build a new one, that is human friendly, one that you take responsibility for your life instead of handing it over to the mega corps and government..
you digity?
I mean why not? you only have one glorious kick at the can.
ENBD..//
Lovely discovery.
It's all culturally relative. -- Derek
Americans are moving farther away from the nucleus of family and I find that to be sad, even wasteful. How much better the dinner table with lots of people laughing and sharing their joys, sometimes their sorrows, walking down the street instead of passively listening to a TV, going to the grocery store to find that perfect combination for a shared meal, always looking out for one another...always together...sometimes in body, sometimes in spirit and kinship.
I used to think moving away, becoming fiercly independent was the ideal. I have come to realize as I watch my own children grow up to have their own children, it isn't independence we need so much as family, unity, to become a piece to the bigger puzzle.
To become...
Ah, but even that is your cultural projection. Someone else could make a convincing argument that people clustering into family units, instead of associating with all people equally, is harmful to becoming a piece of the bigger puzzle.
"Normal"...? "Normal" upbringing? In California...!?! ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha
American confidence is many times mistaken for arrogance.
Amazing what our sub-concious does, isn't it? I am quite bad at direct quotes, but I realize so much of my past reading and absorbed teaching springs up as original thought to me.
BTW, the link on your post was hard to find - but Mr. Bennet's (?)Link worked directly.
Having been a fish out of water most of my life, Iseem to find it easy to flow in and out of cultures.
Asian culture in general is built around family, whereas our culture doesn't put a lot of emphasis on this anymore. Asian families are very cohesive as support system. I often find is something to be jealouS of: the split living between husband and wife in order to maximize income; the unconditional support of the childres through everything no matter how old the children are (although the expectations can often be harsh). Then how completely devoted the children are to their elderly parents (they find nursery or convalescent homes unimagineable in most cases I know).
Not to mention, divorce is still extremely rare regardless of the happiness od the marriage.
There are still only a few that I have met that even think of starting their own business despite their extensive education.
The past century of history in most, if not all, Asian countries, has been chaotic with dominant leadership and a lot of followers.
Things are changing, but tradition and the past loom large.
As AmericanS there is much we can contribute to their emergence, at the same time there is grace, emotional security and unconditional family support system that we can take noted from.
Thanks Derek,
Annie
PS-written on my blackberry, please escuse typos, etc.
Bad analogy, we know we are in air, don't we?
a friend used to say, "you know what Chinese call Chinese food? they just call it food" his name is Sunil Sundar if you want to quote him
~
the question of individualism in a culture of collective conformity hits me in a new way everyday
i spent my whole life in India feeling a bit like a misfit - and i lived largely inside my own head, it all cam bursting out at at 30 when i realized i needed to live my dreams - dono if this made sense, thought i'd share it anyway
Is it all culturally relative? Would you say that to someone who thinks female circumcision is a bad thing? Spending the last ten years out of my own culture has, of course, made me think about the points you make here almost constantly. But even after a decade I find it to be the most difficult question. In the case of some cultural practices, I think value judgements can be made. Sometimes though, it's just "to each his own." Figuring out which is which is easily the most difficult thing I have encountered - maybe in life!
Glad you brought that up. See this TED talk by Sam Harris about the science of morality. Brilliant. -- Derek
amazing revelation at the age of ???. Sorry to sound so sarcastic, but it never ceases to amaze me how Americans seem to think the world circles around them. If you cant travel and meet other cultures, try reading books. I guess the old saying is true though... "better late than never"
p.s. Don't forget to breath.
(Your site says you are also an American who recently moved to Israel.) No need to be like an ex-smoker. Just because you changed before someone else doesn't mean you need to be vicious to those who haven't. -- Derek
My 17 yr. old who just commenced last night sat down beside me and glanced and saw the task bar button and saw "fish don't know" and was able to recite exactly the story. She hadn't seen your blog, only that. Hmmmm . . . she had just re-listened to the whole speech the other day. Living a life of compassion she said, imagining people complexly and understanding that every person is a person. Then the fellow committed suicide. So sad. We have much to learn from our youth, or at least I do!
a bunch of gutless students. if i were in that class, i'd be the other dude who would raise his hand wanting to start a company, unreluctantly. maybe i have that american entrepreneurship spirit in me? by the way i'm singaporean.
Fantastic article! This is exactly what's happening in Singapore today. And if you are the only one showing your hand, you will be stared by the many eyes around you as though you are an alien from some planet outside...
Over in Singapore, it is a standard that there is almost no questions when you ask them in a class... But when the class is over, you will start to see them crowding you to ask you questions...
I think you can try this: When the speech is over, you can just have a conclusion and "close" the speech. Automatically, people will start asking you questions... Only then you will go ahead and open up this "Any questions" section... (Better coordinate with the event organiser about this first.)
I think the government is trying to fight the culture hard - as an entrepreneur, I'm always amazed by the number of tax breaks, bonuses etc that new businesses get. For that, Singapore is a great place for entrepreneurs to be based.
But on the other hand, I also feel the pain of this culture you've noticed - since so few people want to start businesses, nobody wants startup experience. Which means, startups have an impossibly hard time retaining talent. Singaporeans would almost always choose a bank over an exciting startup. No Singaporeans want to work on startup salaries, foreigners don't get their visas approved and new companies can't grow.
that's why most of the successful entrepreneurs are from US, that's not with Singapore, you know the whole of Asia is like that, it is their nature, they are reluctant in doing any investment, they would rather like to serve someone then having their own work..
I've seen that video before. But I have to say that I wish Harris would spend more time reading moral philosophy, because his premise is so obviously shaky (ie: Human flourishing is a given? Why? That's a strong human feeling, but it doesn't have a rational foundation).
In fact, Harris's over-confident and under-informed stab at it (sad that many get so famous without doing their homework) reinforces for me how difficult the question is.
Just think about how we will all feel when Full Disclosure occures and the world must admit that we were never alone in the universe? Youtube... "FallingAwake1000"
Here's the article that, I think, deals with the subject with the most honesty. There are still heaps of problems, but at least it's honest:
http://www.philosophynow.org/issue80/An_Amoral_Manifesto_Part_I
When the timing is right, I think it all happens naturally.
A lot of people start their own business when they are in 30s or 40s.
Having a security and a lot of cash, working in a corporate environment is never a bad thing.
Despite the wealth of information at our disposal through the internet, I think it is fair to say the vast majority of "fish" will never get that opportunity to look in from the other side of the fishbowl. As a Brit, it never ceases to amaze me, even now, the number of Americans who still do not own a passport.
Also a lot depends on the field someone is working in. Coming from a family/network of predominantly bankers/stockbrokers, a supposedly highly regulated sector, despite them all being very high earners very few seem to even contemplate striking out on their own. For those in retail, it is more of a natural progression.
Agreed. But you can get out of the water even inside your own country. Someone from New York City could move to rural Alabama. Someone who grew up on a farm could get a job at a bank. Almost as much diversity of culture inside any country. -- Derek
I like your thoughts, Derek. My perspective was altered from my surroundings, too. I came from Elglish royalty, but grew up in lower Appalachia in a very religious tight grip of teachings.
I discovered another world in broadcasting school and beyond.
Thanks for the insight, Derek.
Anna
Now lets take a look upward at heaven. Where is it, outside our individual fish ponds?
If heaven exists, then who really runs it and why?
Can we get to heaven from here?
Anna Prince, author
ANNA FROM PRINCE MOUNTAIN
The idea and analogy that fish don't know they're in water DID NOT originate with this David Foster Wallace speech in 2005. It's a lot older than that. David Foster Wallace is not likely to have invented it. He probably got it from the same 'publicly known analogies that have taken up residence in people's heads since many years ago.' type of place where you (unconsciously) got it.
Sorry.
Oh! That's good to hear. It was so strange to be reading his speech, wondering if I had accidently copied it. -- Derek
Thanks for sharing your keen observation and reflection.
I share your view that there are many things culturally specific that are neither right or wong, just a way of doing/seeing the world. (and is fine as long as they don't get too extreme :D)
"The most pervasive falsehoods are the hardest to see."
In other words, the things that harm us most are those counterproductive beliefs that are most fundamental to our identities--i.e. the water we swim in. Thus, to paraphrase Socrates, examining one's beliefs is what liberates.
On cultures, I think you should take a look at this TED talk "East vs west -- the myths that mystify" by Devdutt Pattanaik. gives a very interesting perspective.
fantastic, I think some people see as far as their environment allows them to see, for others it comes down to chance and also who they are as a person. I didn't grow up in a most privileged background, yet I am a successful businesswoman. My family are proud as are my friends, some of them are still in awe. Some of them are also still living with heir parents...and its not always down to cultural divide either. But I always respond and say there is NOTHING you can not achieve if you believe. However as you say here, some are just unaware and fundamentally caught up in their own fish bowl! when there is also a wider sea to explore and get about it! I think you just know how to navigate or you don't, while some merely need the right tools.
Good post, Thanks for sharing.
L
I lived in Japan for 2 years (American) and had a similar experience finding out just how much culture I was swimming in. One of your old posts/TED talks, "The Opposite is also True", helped me not only accept the differences, but also appreciate them.
Derek you nailed it with this short but directly to the point article. I was raised in LA and now living in Europe running a business, consistently challenged with what I believe are no-brainer decisions that people here are shocked we would even consider such a direction, much also apply's to our daily lives.
!
By no means are we always right, just very very different, we like to make it happen
Best
Thanks very much Derek for opening a door to perception and to an important realisation.
Derek, this is a really nice overall analogy of us humans dwelling in a state of not realizing the higher scheme of things. A bit same than being in sleep while dreaming, versus lucid dreaming... and if you go mainstream, Neo inside the Matrix. Check out Franklin Merrell-Wolff's book "Pathways Through To Space" if you get an urge to get more metaphysical. Bes regards from Finland.
So, I have started wearing my hair curly. This is my natural hair...and I have hated it all my life...and spent countless hours fighting it. Ironing it, straightening it, blow drying it, torturing my head and my heart that somehow, this mop I was born with was inadequate. My mother, (who was my best friend and advocate..and often the one helping me try to tame my locks) used to say to me about my curls, "well, ok, let's do it (whatever the new and improved way I had come up with to smooth my hair)...but this (the curly head) is the way God thinks you look best. I hated when she would say that...because (in my immature and still forming opinion of the world) it is not what "the boys" liked. I can remember being as young as 3 years old...sitting in the hairdressers big chair say I wanted "flip" (the straight poof that Marlo Thomas used to wear in "That Girl").... My curls would not accommodate a "flip".... and so they would just get chopped off for ease of maintenance and management, until I was old enough to do my own hair care...which is when all of the straightening began...at about age 14. So here I am at 49...and now just too damned busy for hair care...so about three weeks ago, I took a whole cup of fixating gel one day and poured it onto my head one day out of frustration when I was running late for a meeting (and my hair was looking very "bozo the clown").... Wallah.... Wash and go hair (with gel). Who knew? It looks a lot better than it did being straightened. All those hours of wasted time.... All of those feelings of inadequacy. All of that pain of over heating my head! This is how God thinks I look best. It is sad...and ironic that Mr. Wallace committed suicide when he was conscious of the need to grow outside of our day to day tribulations. The need to get out of our own head…and discover our place in the world. If I had died at age 46 (David Foster Wallace and I were only 5 days apart in age)...I would have never come to love my natural curly hair. I would never have come to the point where I am now...losing my home to foreclosure...while simultaneously trying to find meaning for my life...my life's mission...by starting these women uniting efforts such as Pink Link Pages. Life is exhilarating and scary at the same time. Choosing our thoughts is determined greatly not only by our culture, but by our circumstance. Am I afraid of being eaten, or if I will have food to eat? Am I afraid of not being attractive to others...and being lonely? Am I afraid I will not be remembered...or have mattered? What are the driving forces of my existence beyond my breath? Being married 27 years helped quell my fears of lonliness..so I could grow to try the curly hair at some point.... What will losing my home and life's savings do to me this fall? I am not sure.... but I will live through it. I refuse to live in fear of my destiny..whatever that is..any longer. My life's mission, I now know, is to unite and empower women. If you are so lucky as to discover your mission in life...all of those fears go away. You rise to your potential and your grace by being the way God thinks you look best.
Excellent point. This is exactly why I so love cultures that inherently differ from my own — this Americanised western capitalist culture... and why I grow so weary of my own culture.
Slowly, I am learning Japanese. For reasons perhaps best explained by your article, Derek, I'm besotted with Japanese culture, society and even its films. I fell in love with the great works of Studio Ghibli and the rest is a predictable descent into cultural romanticising.
In a way, I am the reverse of the gist of your article. I have had a lifelong sensation of being a fish outside the water, an observant "outsider" — even through my childhood — and I am more comforted as a result within a milieu that is so different to plain old water.
Maybe it's just a general fascination with the "exotic", but that's just me...
Great article, There is a huge gap between American and Asian culture. Who knows which one is better?
When I was teaching Stage Lighting at SUNY New Paltz we used to have a two-week trip over the Christmas holidays called London Theatre Experience. Each year we'd take about twenty students over to see tons of plays and learn about English theatre. We teamed with a couple of professors at London University and give a few classes during the days. The first one was always, "Just Because They Speak English Does Not Mean You Are NOT In A Foreign Country." Always a great culture shock for them.
20 years ago there was a book, "The Nine Nations of North America"Joel Garreau. In it, Garreau suggests that North America can be divided into nine regions, or "nations", which have distinctive economic and cultural features. Some of the cultural divides he described are as profound as the California /Singapore differences. These cultural "nations" shift and change over time so the idea has been revisited by Colin Woodard with a book coming out this October - "American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival
Regional Cultures of North America"
One of the passages in the older book describes the difference in attitude about work in northern New England vs the mid-Atlantic region. In Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire the cultural "truth" is that striving to own your own business is a commendable thing. In Maryland, Delaware it's "You work for yourself? Can't you find a REAL job?"
It will be interesting to see what Woodard's take on the cultural regions is. His book on Maine lobster fishermen's culture as a direct descendant of Northern Irish culture (and therefore a cousin to Appalachian mountain culture) is fascinating
What an awesome story. This is how life is generally, you have a lot of nice friends around you that you don't even realize they are there but once they are no more, you'll appreciate them the better.
" Fish don't know they're in water " is the same as wet birds don't fly at night......were all fish or wet birds, either or, its inesacpable & conclusive.
Great post!
It's amazing how different people around the world think.
I just feel the same whenever I move from a country to another, even in different parts from the same country.
Wow! Thank you for sharing this one. I will aim to sneak this one in to some kind of conversation or discussion today! Worth to think about. Have a great day!
Derek, Greetings as always from the UK! YOU have many gifts and talents AND one of them is get people talking about your chosen subject
Everyone contributes to their community in some way or other whether they have travelled or not. However I think that we should all try and travel beyond our comfort zone - whether that is in actual miles or simply in experience. Despite being in an internet age so may people have closed their minds to the infinite possibilities of a full life on this planet
Thanks for your challenges to us
I never read such inspiring article in my life. Can you allow me to write a South African Version based on this one. You are so brilliant. Thank you for sharing this. as Blogger I got something for the day. How can we change culture to match the current living situations.
Thanks! Of course. Anything on my site here is free for you to copy, reprint, change, embellish, etc. Go for it. -- Derek
Probably the most remarkable case of subconscious plagiarism (not that I'm accusing anyone of plagiarism ;-) is George Harrison vs Ronald Mack with the songs "My Sweet Lord" / "He's So Fine".
http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/mysweet.htm
Hi and a big smile !
From one fish to another...
Implied: there are no universal truths. But there are! The trick is to recognize local culture from universal truth.
Think of how different the world would look without risk-takers and people acting "over confident." Thank God we have bright, creative, risk takers in the World! I like electricity, running water, and flying to other countries.
This article needs to be shared with a hell of a lot of American people. I know in my heart that we are not the only ones in the world who forget that our culture is not the center of the universe, but it seems that we have a lot of folks who believe that our culture SHOULD be the center of the universe, not just for us, but for everyone else as well. We're not alone in this attitude either, but it is one of the main things that will continue to create problems in the world. "Live and let live," and "Mind your own business," are two things that many people in the world today just seem to have problems with.
Excellent piece, Derek.
Your story illustrated beautifully how culturally myopic we can be if we do not open our eyes to the merits and intracacies of each other's experience
Beautifully illuminating
Sad to see, however, just how many comments on the article totally miss the point ... especially those of the "our country/ culture is best" variety
There is no "best" ... it's all relative ... which, surely, was the very point of the story
Stu
Yes, thank you for catching that. But whenever the point is missed, I take full responsibility. The #1 challenge in writing is not being understood. It's to not be misunderstood. So I must have failed a bit, here. -- Derek
Thank you, Derek. I read your message and got to thinking about how the US has such a short history and how we were all into "startups" from the beginning. Not many other countries have recent records of "starting up" towns and cities, even states. Other than the novelty of it, I have mostly not been as surprised by cultural differences, country to country, as I have been by how are laughter, our facial expressions and actions are so much the same all over the world. I still am surprised to see someone from around the world and recognize an expression that I know so well on American's faces. It's heartening to me and makes me feel that on a human level we have much in common.
This article is insightful on its own, but it's also a wonderful illustration of the way two minds will develop distinct ideas from the same starting place.
Go read the DFW piece, if you haven't already. It is heartbreaking and beautiful.
Then read Derek's piece again, and think about how different they are. They start with the same story about fish, sure, but they diverge quickly. Not completely, but enough that they're both worth thinking about for longer than a Tweet.
Neat!
I feel like an idiot for being afraid, as a songwriter, of accidentally stealing someone's phrase. Isn't this exactly what we're supposed to do? Start with a phrase most people are familiar with and develop it into something unique and interesting?
Thanks for keeping the wheels spinning, Derek.
Perhaps one then can't see that most business in USA fail, I mean small or medium size business, and that the rugged individualism and premature family separations does not provide real sense of confidence and security. Unfortunately to the outsiders Americans do not really seem confident about what they know.
Interesting read. With two kids chomping at the bit to get out of the house and their parents wanting them to get out of the house and enjoy life on their own...hmmm I wonder what it would be like to keep them at home and 'enjoy' their lives while trying to accommodate the different lifestyles that come into play. They're just revving up and we're just simmering down!
Cheers.
Always amazing when we recognize the obvious. Thanks.
Hi Derek...to me, music and musical exploration is a good way of getting "out of the water" and seeing/looking behond one's own fishbowl!!...cultural values and musical heritage beeing the water and where we live or our mindset beeing the bowl!!...listening to and learning music from other countries helps to expand one's vision of the world!!...you know, "World Without Frontiers" type of thing!!...Music is also a good way to communicate with others because it is a universal language and "blues" is certainly one of the best examples of that!!...as you may know, blues was born in Africa (has was mandkind for that matter!!)...it's no wonder afro-americans played the blues and blues is such a universal language!!...also, music has always been at the forfront of cultural evolution...nowadays "World Music" expresses that need for humanity to unite(probably a reflex for survival!!) and teaching to or learning from others is what makes humans different from the rest of the animal kingdom!...that beeing said, let's all go out for a good swim!!...Richard
Reminds me of a story a friend told about the culture he experienced while in the Peace Corps. When the people needed to blow their nose, they put a finger on one side and skillfully projected the contents of the other nostril out onto the ground, then repeated with the other nostril. He tried that once, but ended up with it all over his face, so he went back to his handkerchief.
He said that the locals would always be very surprised when he blew his nose that way. It finally occurred to him that the reason the locals thought that was so odd was they could not imagine why anyone would want to save it.
I guess what you know dictates how you blow ...
Amazingly simple explanation of a bigger issue, I get pissed of by my colleague when he asks often...do you know Mr.Suresh ...he is from India! ...my good friend cannot comprehend the fact that there is a billion people in India and it is not possible to know all of them....
... hence international travel should be made part of high school or college curriculum. This way we may have fewer expensive wars when generals fight to force "eagles" to swim in the water and are mightily surprised when they refuse.
I didn't read all the comments, so someone may have already mentioned this - your "little" article (great points, BTW - and FABulous illustration of EXACTLY what DFW [below] was stating about centricity [avoiding use of "ego" in front of that, ha-ha]) catapulted me into a short hunt for info on David Foster Wallace, after I followed your link to the WSJ reprint of his 2005 commencement speech. Long story short (too late now, I guess), since he majored in philosophy, my guess is he happened upon the "what is water?" parable there. One more example of universal illustrations (Bill Cosby's "Why Is There Air?" comes to mind) that will continue to resurface, translated into generational terms. Greek or Roman myth, Biblical story, Grimm's Fairy Tale, Kindle E-book, Derek or David's WSJ column retrievable on the internet. Now, I hear we have a new-fangled "Cloud"???
Derek, thoughtful as always. E. M. Cioran carried these issues a little further: " For a mind matters only to the degree that it deceives itself as to what it wants, what it loves, or what it hates; being several, it cannot choose itself. A pessimism without raptures, an agitator of hopes without bitterness, deserves only scorn. Only the man who has no regard for his past, or propriety, logic or consideration is worthy of our attachment: how can we love a conqueror if he fails to plunge into events with a suspicion of failure, or a thinker if he has not conquered his instinct for self-preservation? Man fallen back on his futility is no longer concerned with the desire to have a life".
"If someone ever discovered water, it was certainly not a fish."
Charles Darwin, defending the distance to investigate his subjects. Way before Mr Foster. I think it is in everyones subconscience. Great you are sensible enought to bring that up.
A verse by Ogden Nash:
Some fish are long,
And some are round,
They don't get wet,
They don't get drowned,
But every fish wife fears for her fish,
What we call Mermaids,
But she calls Merfish.
Used in my NBC-TV special "A Carnival of the Animals." Music by Camille Saint-Saens. Words by Ogden Nash. Narrated by Noel Coward. Percy Faith Orchestra.
Documentary Series "Portrait" Produced and Directed by yours truly. Any book by Ogden Nash is most highly recommended. "A Carnival of the Animals" is sheer delight! Larry A. Russell, CEO Eroica Classical Recordings
Love your thoughts.. it is really so true and it does make us wonder that earth is such a beautiful place with so many differences and still we're all one!
Very good food for thought. Thanks
Good discussion, Derek!
Philosophy is as important as science. When I studied psych in college many eons ago, it fascinated me that standing in a forest observing something was comically different than someone's observation standing just inches away, by virtue of trees. As for science, we are like ants trying to understand a combustion engine. At worst arrogant, at best unaware.
I remember something that I read a long time ago in a book. It says "The West always wanted to be opposite to the East. They drive on the left, they leave their parents and don't take of them, and this one is funny, they have comic hero's like batman/superman/spiderman whatever who wears the pant first and then the underwear! why do they want to be just opposite instead they learned everything from the east!"
I forgot what book it is but the comic hero part made me laugh.
but coming back to where we are, After learning the cultural differences, did you just have a thought or are you trying to stop being an entrepreneur and work in a corporate environment and make your family happy ?
Yes our context is almost always unconscious - until we decide to make it conscious. Many people come to me and tell me how to change their minds, how to change their behavior, how to change their habits.
All of these things are determined by our unconscious, invisible context - which are made up of all the beliefs/expectations/assumptions we've taken on from our culture, our parents, our history, our peers. You can look at culture and of course that's a big part of it. But Ghandi said, "Be the change you want to see in the world." So, I work on the individual level.
The first step is to get conscious and to be intentional with your context. Every morning I set my conscious intentional context for the day. I often tweet it (@artistsedge).
This morning my context is "I value my word to myself as to others" - I'm working on creating new habits and re-instituting old ones that worked in the past but got dropped because of my significant change in circumstances.
What's your context for today?
Thank you for such a beautiful and insightful article.
It's always been about water, and our relationship to it. We could/can/and will likely do without oil/petroleum based products. Can't do without water. Always good to know what kind you're swimming in.
This is really true. We carry our local culture with us constantly assuming that, the world thinks the same way as us. Even in different parts of this country, the differences can be vast. Its good to get a reality check from time to time though, keeps you from getting too complacent.
They strive for security. We strive for Freedom. There lies the difference. (Read Ben Franklin to discover the difference)
As someone who has traveled quite a lot on business, this really resonated with me. Thanks for the awesome representation of this truth. Americans, especially struggle with this. Europeans for instance have far more exposure to various languages and cultures than Americans do. We are somewhat sheltered and naive.
I love how reading your posts are like "eating chips, not an elephant," as you put it on your "how to hire" post.
-- Derek
I just listened to your interview with Ramit for the seventh-or-so time, and it occurred to me that it'd be much easier to -listen_ to your blog archive than to read it. Is there any audio version of these or other thoughts of yours?
There will be, soon.
Great that you notice about your stereotypical views. It's time Americans know more about the culture before shooting off anyhow.
i love this. this sort of thing happened to me when i moved to NYC from a really small town in Texas.
I mean, imagine coming from a small town in Texas, that's a dry county, having never said a curse word or taking a sip of alcohol ever...lol, let's just say i could go on for days with this one!
awesome post!
Thanks, Derek. Great points here about culture, context and objectivity. Two recent things coincided for me about this post:
1. For some reason I was recently thinking about how animals most likely don't have any thoughts/worries about how long they'll live or where they are in their life span, yet they are constantly naturally doing what it takes to survive in the moment. (Hmmm, I wonder if they perceive themselves as 'fighting' for survival or not...)
2. A guy at a bus stop recently approached me, my daughter and some other people asking us to guess what he was (he gave examples like, 'do you think I'm Russian, American, ...?' etc..) and then he would could conclude with; I'm 'Native Earthling' and put out his hand to shake our hands.
Steven
Yes, very interesting article and it makes you think. Even in our churches we are in the water; look around to other cultures and see how they praise GOD. This could be the same GOD you believe in but, they have more of a relationship with GOD than a religion. We must learn from this and sometimes look outside the box, inwhich we live.
For quite some time I've been examining the culture and overall society in which I've been raised, and have been more understanding of "the big picture".
I have been questioning the relationships between people, the food we eat, the education we receive, the economy, the law, religion, etc. More importantly, I've been examining how these things effect me (and how I would like to change certain things in my life).
Being able to examine yourself within -and without- your surrounds is a skill that is not taught very much in the mainstream, but it should because it can be a very useful skill.
Interesting the thought proccess of our culture in regards to starting up our own business. Americans are caught in their own merchant circle of metaphorical tables in which everyone present at the market can only sell to the tables surrounding them. There are no consumers in the market, only merchants selling to other merchants. , our American Society. We have all be controlled and diminished to the sad pop culture that it is, where mediocrity is what the public now wants. Artists are forced to live off of charitable means like Kickstarter, the latest example of this exhibition of the new lower class.
So very, very true, Derek. Thanks for sharing your mind with us again.
Reminds me of when I first started voice chatting to random American women online from my home in England, 13-14 years ago, anyone else remember Freetel?
Most American women would typically say "I love your accent" and I would say "You have a cool accent too" and most would reply "I don't have an accent, I'm American!"
It's likely and unfortunate that "most" people's beliefs about other cultures are largely defined by what they see on television.
Televsion is bad, throw it away.
Fortunately I got to travel a lot, live and work in many countries and get some "real perspective" an I think that's the lesson here.
Get some perspective, not only on different cultures but on what is going on around you right now.
Practice seeing the world through the eyes of the people around you, how do they see you? How do they see themselves? How do they feel?
Get out of your own head, get over yourself and appreciate the beauty of our differences, enjoy them.
Great insights Derek, thank you.
Thanks for encouraging us all to think outsides our own reality by posting this perspective.
I have always believed that we are the ONLY ones who live in "our world." Everyone has a unique vision of "reality," and they are the ONLY ONES who see that exact vision.
Don't believe me? Try winning a fight with your partner in a he said/she said battle! You are both equally passionate about your points because you both equally believe you are "right." This is because you both have a DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT IS "REALITY." My reality is...you are BOTH RIGHT!
Strength Through Unity,
Lynn
PopSuperhero.com
GULP.
This is one of the fundamental tenets of Anthropology. My training in Anthropology has given me the ability to question the meaning or reason behind human behaviors... especially my own!
In life coaching we call this concept "transparency" because people are not conscious of, or see right through what they grow used to. So, if you want to change your behavior you can (hire a coach to help you) look at the assumptions underlying your behavior. When you're aware of those assumptions and how they shape your actions then you can test them, create new world views and adjust your behavior accordingly.
Derek,
It isn't just Singapore. If you asked the same question to business students in Michigan not many hands would go up. We're year 11 into our recession and its made people very risk adverse here.
Fish know they're in water. They just don't talk about it.
Hi---I minded being a fish out of water when I was younger; sadly, it was a waste of worrying (quoting my own song) bec. no one else knew or cared. I think, having read the miles of posts, I'm off topic by now, but I wish I knew then what a gift it is to be that fish out of H2O. I wasn't alone...
Peace+love, April
Sugar Bayou Band
So true. The thing I appreciate most from moving around is all those different perspectives I gain. When common sense is no longer common, then I really start to ponder why. For me I actually started de-confucianising myself after I moved out of China. I was like a new-born opened up to so many new possibilities. Ancient philosophy does sometimes have ancient wisdom. But certain aspects of it are limited to the environment back then. The best is to find the Golden Mean. Nurture from different cultures and derive one's own best philosophy.
I feel like no one in the comments dare ask the obvious question: Why is America like this? I am originally from Israel and lived many years in France (my parents are french) and the main reason why these countries are not like the US is because there you actually feel the government looming over you, you can't start a company in 5 minutes like in the US, many regulations, sometimes the government will even try to shut you down (it happened to my father)for retarded reasons and the list goes on. America is the freest nation in the world which enables people to pursue what ever dreams they have. I don't understand why people in the comments are scared to say that YES this system of "free markets" actually works and is better then other systems. I realized only immigrants really appreciate the US and how wonderful it is to live in a really free nation. You should all appreciate those freedoms and not mind saying it is better
there is a reason why so many smart people move here.
Good article, Derek! Fish in the water - nice allegory (I'm more used to it in a spiritual sense, but it definitely works here). Myself, born in Russia and now living in the States, I call it "staying sharp". Continuous living in the same environment inevitably makes us dull, and changing environments every once in a while helps to sharpen yourself up and start perceiving the world around you as it is, without preconceived notions... Thank you!
The problem with the Anology is we are not fish, not even close. Someone once said to me that we could learn a lot from dolphins. I doubt it.
Our own culture (American culture) is really not a culture but a shadow of one.
I do think that Americans are way to insular and self preoccupied on the whole and could benifit from a bit more exposure to other cultures. The problem with this is our educational system which does a horrible job even teaching kids about their own culture. There are other aspects of this. take for instance The American students VS the Singapore students. Take one of Those students from Singapore and drop him inthe United states and he will probably end up owning a chain of retail stores. Drop The American student in Singapore and he will probably end up dead in two weeks. There are other aspects to be considered like longevity and sustainability of a culture and how well people on the whole do in that culture. I dont just mean in the material sense either. Also I would like to point out that culture is not a choice. At least not for an Indevidual. You can learn another language and immerse your self in another culture but you will not be one of them at best you will just be a very good faker. Cultures represent the combined experinces and wisdom and of national groups. They are a valueable refference point and an anchor for indeviduals and nations. It is right that we should learn from one another and question our own assumptions but we should essentially we remain who we are in the process. There was this Hippy Philosopher named Mckenna who used to go on about casting off ones culture. Go ahead and try it. Not a good idea for reasons which I wont get into here and now. Good thoughts to ponder though.
I once heard, and have quoted many times since: "We don't know who discovered the water, but it wasn't the fish."
Very interesting article, and I do agree with you. I always wonder why US government always wants to interfere with other countries with their own believes only. Every countries have their own cultures and believes and what you think will make people happy, does not always make those people happy. People need to respect other people's culture and stop measuring with your own ruler.
Derek,
having been raised in Italy and spent 45 years in the USA, I understand completely. Italians are close cousins to the Singaporeans when it comes to becoming entrepreneurs. I was a fish out of water and left, like you, very early. For me it was 16. I was just discussing the same topic with my wife last week. Yes, you are right: fish don't know they are in water! Am I glad to be an American!
Hi Derek!
I would love to go to Singapore sometime. I visted several countries in Europe quite a few years ago and it was an eye-opener for sure. I think all countries have a large amount of tunnel vision. Also all countries have some people who are aware of most other cultures and try to extend a hand to the world at large.
Brilliant~
Thanks Derek for your emails--they always poke me into thinking about the global instead of the local. Many USA ers just don't get that there are many kinds of riches--not just money. For example--many of my neighbors stay inside and go in their cars back and forth to work--never realizing that the whole neighborhood is like a giant botanical garden filled with flowering and fruiting trees, flowers, and shrubs and a huge array of wildlife and birds.
One day when I was walking my basset hounds around the neighborhood, smelling the gardenias, watching three owls in the oaks, and noticing the purple and yellow wildflowers in the right of way--and hearing the songbirds, insects, and frogs blast their symphony--that my own neighborhood was very much like the "perfect place" I imagined during meditation.
Please take even a few minutes a day to just look and experience what is all around you in your everyday life--many people around the world would think you live in heaven--we sometimes don't see it because it is all around us.
Best wishes,
Mary Z. Cox
maryzcox.com
I've been in Singapore last year, for four months and I got the impression that singaporeans are taught to follow.
I met many foreigners working in manager positions because of that.
Are you planing on playing music there?
The music scene is quite small...
Anyway; thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Keep writing.
I feel blessed to have been brought up by parents who traveled internationally with us kids and exposed us to multi-culturalism. It has benefitted me in many ways. Sometimes living in America I feel very isolated because of the xenophobic, narrow-mindedness of a lot of people and the commercialism of American culture in general. I wish more people could experience what it is like to be a fish out of water. People might be more compassionate and understanding of people who are not like them.
One of my favorite comments here. So well-put. Thank you. -- Derek
Thanks Derek.
You can even experience this at a micro-level by living (not just visiting) in various parts of America. I grew up in the south, lived out West for six year and a couple years ago moved to the New England region. As you get involved with each culture you find how different we all our, and how great it is to experience each one.
You're a good man, Derek. Glad you're having this eye-opening experience. It will make you an even better person. I was fortunate to go through it at a much younger age, and it was the reverse of what you're going through. Coming from a smaller country in Europe, it was like:" You really can do that? You can go and open your own company, just because you want it, or because you believe in something you're doing. How cool. Let me try." Still going strong and loving it... It's good to travel. Far away, and relatively often (if possible) . Keeps one's feet on the ground and eyes wide open.
Cheers!
Hey Derek,
Thank you! I always treasure your comments.
When I came to the US in 1988 I realize how I took for granted the genuine secular goverment, the genuine social freedom, and the genuine social goverment programs of Uruguay. I thought that my country was extremely right wing and retrograde at the time coming out of a 13 years dictatorship in 1985.
My point is that we still have to try to make our beautiful USA be that ideal country we think it is.
I came thinking that my music was an easy match but I'm still searching for the right path after so many years.
Thanks again!
Great post! Globalization and the rise of emerging markets with very different cultures from the West will help more people become "aware" that they are in water. Now of course some will still choose to think their water is best, but that's a different article
Great post! Just the kind of thought provoking stuff that I like.
BTW In the first chapter of Hyperspace by Michio Kaku, pub. in 1995, he says, "One of my happiest childhood memories is of crouching next to the pond, mesmerized by the brilliantly colored carp swimming slowly beneath the water lilies. In these quiet moments, I felt free to let my imagination wander; I would ask myself silly questions that only a child might ask, such as how the carp in that pond would view the world around them. I thought, what a strange world theirs must be!
Living their entire lives in the shallow pond, the carp would believe that their "universe" consisted of the murky water and the lilies. Spending most of their time foraging on the bottom of the pond, they would only be dimly aware that an alien world could exist above the surface"
I wonder if David Foster Wallace was a Kaku fan? Maybe all three of you guys were just on the same 'wave length' or tapping into a "morphic field" - (Rupert Sheldrake). -He theorizes that organized fields – with or without inherent memory – would explain phenomena ranging from coordinated behavior among social insects, flocks of birds and schools of fish. Our consciousness could also be related to as a field, and thus a possible explanation for action at a distance.
I have a passport and would dearly love to use it more often, because I too, love to see the world from lots of different angles.
Just getting from point A to B in cognition is the beginning of all our journeys - whether to Singapore or to our own backyard.
Great! Thanks For Sharing man!
I'm from Ohio and I live in Rochester, MN. The culture of Minnesotans are different, especially in Rochester. I can't believe how much these people whine about everything, especially Athletes that make a lot of money. In Ohio we never Cared how much money Pro athletes made and with me growing up in a neighborhood where I witness two great athletes make it into Pro football I was delighted to see them achieve success and make a lot of money, but here they complain and envy these High profile Athletes and they don't want the Vikings to get a new Stadium even if its only 2-4 cents a week out of their paychecks. So, what I thought was the norm to wish people success is not the norm in Rochester, MN. What I thought was the norm to go get what you want out of life by using your ideas and talents is not the norm here. In fact the attitude here is so negative that you don't want to share your dreams with these people and according to them you're a fool to pursue them. Rochester, is home of the world famous Mayo clinic, and the only people who are suppose to prosper here are Doctors and IBM employees which is also IBM headquarters. So, my entrepreneurial Spirit is looked down upon, which goes to show, where you're from and what you've been surrounded by growing up does have a lot of influence on your willingness to go get it and takes chances to make your dream happen. Where I come from in Ohio it is what life is all about, taking chances and if you fail, Keep trying until you get it right.
Hi Derek! Fun to read this blog today when I just highlighted a sentence that I related to in a book I started reading earlier this morning. I think it's on your recommended reading list, but I don't remember!
The quote is: "Culture is the sea we swim in - so pervasive, so all-consuming, that we fail to notice its existence until we step out of it." (That is from The Geography of Bliss) So true, so true!
Good find. Great book! Thanks for finding and posting that quote here. -- Derek
It's probably since there was plenty of "free" land for everyone in the USA while in southeast Asia it was already divided between families or governments or companies or what ever entities they had formed to manage it in a controlled way. Many generations of Americans could just go and start their own farm or sawmill or whatever thing in some neighboring area with little regard for others.
You have to realize that there are often reasons why the culture is what it is.
Soul always goes through it's period of immaturity. The challenge is to live in balance between the 2 opposite extremes of risk-taking and security-seeking.
I used to think of myself as being very open minded, but I like you, Derek, have recently realized that I make assumptions about the world based on my own upbringing--and that my assumptions are not universally accepted (nor are they necessarily correct.) Keep up the good work!
So TRUE A great article and just makes you step back for a second
Certainly true, Derek, but Americans aren't the only ones who have this issue. It is universal. You do make this point (petals on the flower), but it seems to me that Americans get disproportionately beaten up for this. It is not a one-way street -- it is a multi-way street.
I apologise, but I feel like quibbling about the English language. Language evolves, but one would like to see it improve rather than degenerate. My example from Derek's text: 'If I would have asked this question, 21 hands would have gone up.' I noticed my son using this form back in the early '70s, and found it irritating. Let it be known that it's easier to say 'If I'd known', or 'if I had known' rather than 'If I would have known', and is correct, because 'if I would have known' simply does not make sense. Also it degenerates in conversation into 'wudda wudda', as in 'if I wudda thought about it, I wudda (or wudna) done it.' Perhaps one day English teachers will be teaching the form, and requiring our youth to put it into sentence diagrams. Please excuse my impertinence.
Singapore sounds like a great place with family values first. I don't think that fish are unaware (they can leap, feel air, communicate with each other, some crawl on land, etc.), but *fish* know where they are supposed to be.
I think everyone should find themselves and their place.
Still growing....
Yes it's important to get "Outside" to appreciate what you have, for one thing,
and to widen one's perspective, since it's SO easy(and necessary) to block out everything and everyone when in your own zone that must be maintained to create at your highest level.
Oh forgot, there are ponds, lakes, seas, oceans, different depths, fresh water, salt water, etc., around the world...So, it isn't limited as it sounds.
Also, I have never stayed in one place longer than 3 years on average. Many fish migrate for different reasons, smile.
Initially I wanted to comment on the beauty of the truths here, but meh, you already know that.
Thank you. -- Derek
I think the best part of this whole page may be your charming retort to the American who moved to Israel.
'No need to be an ex-smoker'
Brilliant Derek, brilliant.
I love this quote by David Foster Wallace--"The really important kind of freedom involves attention, and awareness, and discipline, and effort, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them, over and over, in myriad petty little unsexy ways, every day."
He has truly captured *one* the most central cores for our existence and joy.
Well-put, sir.
Great super out of the water angle
Yet another interesting post, for which I thank you ... again.
What occurred to me, as I read all the responses, is that it appears that you read ALL of them ... or else you're very good at skimming and finding things worth a response from you. That left me curious: how much time do you spend reading the replies, and how does that amount compare with the time it took you to write the original commentary?
Just a thought ... because I would probably be VERY picky about what I decided to post if I knew that I would get the landslide of responses that you invoke - and apparently take the time to read.
Thanks again,
Bob
Heheh... Yes I have about 500 unposted blog posts, unpolished because it takes so much work to not be misunderstood! Even this one: I feel I made a mistake because too many people think this is about America or Singapore, whereas I just meant it to be about questioning anything you hold as truths. But yeah, I wince whenever I post, bracing for hundreds of misunderstandings. I feel a huge success when there are only a few. -- Derek
Derek
I know the topic is beliefs and questioning truths, but I want to get to how they develop, so I’ll begin with my own myopic experience and proceed from there.
In the US, the statistics for business startups indicate that almost 3 of 4 businesses fail within the first ten years, and it is typical for the average successful business man to have made about 3 failed attempts at business. The truth is that businesses operate on jungle laws and the infirm perish. The beauty of American constitution is that bankruptcy laws are in place to foster an entrepreneurial business climate, which in turn develops a unique culture but it also builds a generally productive economy.
If we look at the foundational and cultural laws of regions we can see, at least in part, how the people’s beliefs have developed.
Great article Derek…. I would be very interested to read up on how we as individuals develop our belief structures relative to environments verses truths, sometimes I wonder how much of what I believe is all just cause and effect and whether or not my own opinions actually approach any level of reality, gotta go I see a worm and I’m hungry. kw
Indeed! Great blog. I shall try to share on my Fb wall or other social sites...
"Almost as much diversity of culture inside any country." -- Derek
So interesting and common that we have to leave home to begin to understand it, and ourselves.
Good post.
jon
I'm pretty sure the article was clear and self-explanatory. It looks more like a case of people wanting to argue for the sake of arguing, or perhaps, merely to incite a little extra discussion.
You could read a 'for dummies' manual on how to use a spoon and find 'fault' in it if you wanted, although that's not really the point.
The only thing worth adding (imo) to this post is that, to me, more powerful than cultural barriers are personal mind barriers, like the ones we can see here.
As an Australian living and building a tech startup in Singapore, I disagree strongly that Singaporeans are not entrepreneurial.
Everytime you visit a mall, a hawker centre, you will see the thousands of SME entrepreneurs that toil and take the risk. Singapore has by far the highest % of real estate /insurance agents, again each one of them an entrepreneur in their own right.
Witness the explosion of groupon clones within about a 3 month period starting july 2010 in Singapore.
I suspect that all of the people you know are formally educated, they went to the "brand" schools, JCs, universities, companies. The majority of "entrepreneurism" going on in singapore are amongst the people who are educated in the school of hard knocks, those who didn't make it through the "exam" systems.
The entrepreneurial spirit is alive and well in Singapore, but it's not the "sexy" startups that the government wants to showcase, that is what all this lamenting about the lack of entrepreneurs is in Singapore.
HEY DEREK!!
I just got back from a trip out of town....so don't know it you will even read this..but just wanted to say , Thank you for this good blog and ideas from all people here,
Culture, I agree, is relative,to a point.. I grew up with the Carrier Indians, on a reserve...no running water, no insolation in a northern ,cold climate.. outhouse,.....very humble..
This was on purpose, by my parents choice, so that we could relate to the native people that my dad wanted to help...I learned from this upbringing and I am most grateful for the cross-culture experience gained.. so much more I could say, but mostly, I think humility is a great seeing eye...
Have a wonderful evening Derek!
Rachel
Thanks for the new article.
Best regards.
Jan
Derek: I dont beleive you were misunderstood as much as you might think. I think most people got it. You did provide a specific example and thats what most people used in Their retorts. After all you were not talking about just any kind of beleifs or prejudices but cultural ones. Of course there will be a certain number which for various reasons misunderstand, But sometimes these can be amusing and sometimes they can actually be quite useful. There will always be misunderstandings. Even where there seemingly is no possibility for misinterpretation you can count on it. If for no other reason then to be contrary
Dont worry about being misunderstood....because you will be! Just through your ideas out there and wait for the feedback and revise, retort etc as needed or just sit back and have a good laugh.
Great story, and I particularly liked the article afterwards.. made you think a bit more about different cultures and differing views. It also reminds you what a great privilege it is to live in the US. Now I'm not trying to be all patriotic, and the US has too many problems to name (especially with its society), but the very idea that in this country you could achieve your dreams and financial goals without trickery or violence is a very special privilege. Look at the middle east, africa, eastern europe, and most of south america. Such things are unheard of their.
For example I had a friend from bulgaria who was simply estatic with being a pizza driver. I asked him if he didn't want more from life, and he told me that he was really living his dream. He was making good money for him, doing a decent job, and enjoying freedom. He said back in bulgaria you had pretty much two choices, be poor or join a gang... and thats bulgaria we're talking about, an eu memeber. Imagine living in a place like congo, or peru, or even singapore where society just frowns upon following your dreams.
Or maybe I'm just a fish in water and am not realizing that the world is going flat :P. Either way, great insight Mr.Sivers.
Dare to be different! What ever that is....
Nice Article at all...Derek Sivers we have same culture in India also...
the fish call water god.
rats are on the menu in china
my lover has a sweet vagina
& bright on heart.
i will piss on your feet & you will thank me.
Good brief article Derek.
My first and most profound experience in recognizing a radical difference between our American Culture was being activated from the Air Natinal Guard and into the U.S. Air Force during the second Berlin Crisis in 1961-1962. I remember reading the French Newspapers which had the Berlin Crisis on page 12 while the American Newspapers had blaring headlines. I was struck by living in the "fog" of the American Media which shapes our lives. I have learned to question and ponder what is written and spoken. Sometimes what apparently is ...is but sometimes it ain't necessarily so.
Derek, here is something similar to your point that one's culture is not the center of the universe, merely one of many ways of living:
"Ours is not a better way, ours is merely another way."
~ Neale Donald Walsch, author of the "Conversation with God" series of books.
sorry if my previous comment sounded too sarcastic. Yes, I was born in america and moved to Israel 20 years ago, but I remember when I was 12 years old and wrote a short story about how we on earth were really some alien kids science project (like ants in an ant farm), This view I got from reading a lot at an early age. I like what you wrote, don't get me wrong - I always enjoy your writings.
Hi Derek a work colleague told me about your blog. I'm Singaporean but I left Singapore when I was in my 20s to live in Australia and I'm in Norway now. I'm like the black sheep of the family. ;) Just wanted to add that it is true about living at home with parents, usually you do that if you're single or you're a newlywed and waiting to get a flat. No one ever moves out at 18, unless they were homeless.
I am feeling like a fish out of water at this new company that I joined 4 months ago.
What people never knew was that I tendered my resignation second month into the job. After having earned enough keeps and saved what I think was a comfortable amount, I told my hubby that I would like a break and to try online retailing and be my own boss. I guess everyone reaches a crossroad every now and then.
He said ok. But what follows was a silent treatment to me, (not on purpose but its a result that he is really strssed) and a tossing and turning of sleepless night by him. He then asked out loud how he should tell his parents. I repeat: HIS parents. Not MY parents.
Reason being? He can't give them money every month, anymore. This is the stress of "filial piety" ; the stress of "face value" and the stress of the rat race in Asian "waters".
I knew then that my move would get him into depression (trust me) or get our marriage into trouble, or both.
Sad... so did I retract my letter in the end? No prizes for getting it right.
Shedding some lights on asian waters.
I give private German lessons, though I'm not a native speaker. I've often have made the analogy that native speakers don't necessarily make the best teachers, because it's like asking a fish how to swim.
They do it at a very high skill level, but they can't really tell you the process you should take to learn to do what they can do (since, as far as their conscious minds are concerned, they have "always done it.") It's similar to your point: things we've always known/done/experienced are hard to parse!
(As an aside, language doesn't degenerate, it just evolves, and it's not going to stop, so no need to get too worked up!)
I hate to be the damper, but a fish out of water wants nothing more than to be back in the water, and then dies without it. We need our cultural roots, whether we want to admit it or not, but once informed of what is true around the world, we can change it, piece by piece. That is all.
我觉得这个方法不错啊。
I used to laugh at the obvious state rhetoric of Chinese or Soviet news broadcasts. These days I can hardly watch British News without expecting a popoganda report about our glorious success in tractor production! Also Hollywood is at least as stylistic and more patronising than any far eastern cinema!
Derek,
I really enjoy your posts. Thank you very much!
Hi Derek! Your post just reminded me of a frase on a postcard I saw in Brazil, that goes
"Viajo para ver de perto o que está longe e para ver de longe o que está perto."
("I travel to see close what's far, and to see what's near from a distance.")
It gave me an unique perspective on traveling and made me realize the importance of getting out of your routine once in a while...
This was a good one Derek. I always try and think ourside the box...or water. ;)
This same cultural blindness occurs everywhere. I just started a new job, and I instantly started questioning everything.
It's fun both to learn why some things are the way they are, and to watch others start to notice the water, and question if there's another way.
GOOOD TOPIC..Peripheral realities. 1st point is that fish don't need to know their in water. 2nd point is, how do we know that fish don't know where or what their swimming in?? Anthropomorphous tendencies are a somewhat misleading quality in human perception; where a dangerous presumption can,in time, become a widely accepted assumption. I'd also add this Derek, the bigger picture is, that whenever this sort of faux scientific/philosophical illustration becomes accepted thinking it opens the door to the more technologically manipulative and control orientated members of civilisation (as we know it), to practise in dark areas of the psychological social hinterland. ie Never mind individual perceptions originating from the interests of said individual! What will be shortly offered in the near cyber future will be control of information centres offering hidden corporate services tailored exactly to an individual profile. Unknown of course to the individual themselves! This over time will control and hook the individual into a whole array of positions they did not know they had chosen or wanted to be in. Like corporate fascism this cyber- totalitarianism will take place covertly. This is potentially a human-race game changer. Like the fish and all animal life we do not really know what we are swimming in either I would opine. Will computers develop a form of cyber- computo-anthropomorphism towards humanity?? ..I blame American/German early "Time & Motion" studies myself. Start of a slippery slope, humans studying other humans without their consent, or even knowledge sometimes, under the name of PROGRESS////***
relevant lyrics (one of my songs):
Boxes
"Most of my life I was in boxes, boxes of other peoples dreams
It never even occurred to me I could think for myself
Oh most of my days I was caught in the haze, of looking good
Too ready to save everyone but me, like I was told I should
In most of the way I was taught as a child to be quiet be still
be a good little girl and now every time I look at you
I know I should, i really should, I know I should
Oh these boxes they don't melt away
and the they don't give in easy and they just want to stay
On these boxes they keep haunting me, no matter how I try
I still can barely see, like fishes swimming in the deep blue
they don't know they're in water And I don't know too..."
Hi Derek,
I'm American, lived in Peru for 3-1/2 years. Those people cheat, lie, knockoff, insist, pirate, and take every shortcut known to man, and then some. They are also full of aggression and hostility - they display this by their gross disrespect for others, and for the environment. They know that what they are doing is wrong, but they do it anyway. They don't have the "Go Getter" attitude in the way of doing something honest (there are exceptions, but very few). I've always wondered what happened to those people - why they behave in such devious and passive/aggressive ways, knowing full well that they are being devious. Many will gleam with pride when they "overcome" another person with their deceitfulness. Some claim ignorance, but most are proud of their horribly dishonest ways.
Here in America, at least some of us would be embarrassed, ashamed, or appalled by such behavior. Those Peruvian fish know full well that they are swimming in water - I believe this is the exception to the rule, and just wanted to put it out there for folks to think about.
In spite of my digression in my previous post, I do get your point. After reading Tao a few times, and reading about some other eastern philosophies, I've begun to see the polluted water that I've been trapped in since the day I was born. We Americans are taught that we are the kings of the world, that we should dominate, overcome, conquer, and other such happy horse stuff. Capitalism is a disease, and quickly morphs into Monopolism - an even worse disease - yet most Americans think that this is the way the whole world should be. Yes, most Americans are swimming in polluted water and don't even know it - or do they?
Great post, Derek. Every country, culture, and individual contributes to the beauty of the world. Nothing and no one is perfect but we can draw upon the positive in societies and reject the negatives, always trying to improve upon ourselves and our surroundings. Thank God for the music - everything is better with a song!
This is also true of companies. The culture in the company is hard to see unless you step out and compare culture's in other companies. Great post!
Never been, but a close friend tells me that Singapore makes the US look like a third world country. Maybe if just a few more Americans would adopt the style of thinking things all the way through, might just prevent many more bankruptcies here. Very insightful as usual Derek. So what is water and why am I made of so much of it?
I'm glad SkimThat.com found this wonderful little article for me. This really makes you appreciate what Stephen Covey refers to as paradigm shifts. I so happen to be blogging about the same thing over on one of my newer blogs too.. I think this message is a powerful one and there are many lessons to be learned:
* Don't assume your truths are universally true.
* Be open and accepting of contrasting ideas.
* Remember that the average person likes their comfort zone so the entrepreneurial mind may seem like mere "crazy" to them.
* Sometimes, you have to be a bit of a crazy misfit to be truly free in life.
* Then again, there is no right or wrong in life, so long as you follow what your heart tells you and you feel truly fulfilled.
It all comes down to whether we are driven by fear, principles, or purpose. We all have a bit of all of these things at work but, certainly, some are more prevalent than others.. Any thoughts? 8)
--Yomar (a.k.a. Yogizilla - Feel free to Google me and connect to keep the conversations going!)
Dear Derek
I just read your post and let me tell you are absolutely amazing how you describe the culture differences. I am from Mexico and even in inside my country the subculture differences are unbeliever.
Thank you very much for share in simple worlds how we can see the cultures differences and this perception of reality
Best regards
Manuel
"We don't know who discovered water, but we know it wasn't the fish."
Marshall McLuhan (War and Peace In the Global Village) 1966
"One thing about which fish know exactly nothing is water, since they have no anti-environment which would enable them to perceive the element they live in."
— Marshall McLuhan (1966)
Oh, just our local culture? "A day-and-a-half search for the Hasidic boy ended with the discovery of his severed feet inside a bloody freezer."
Nothing out of the ordinary here; it's only that some people don't understand how funny this is.
"Mr. Wallace, 46, died last Friday, after apparently committing suicide."
Sounds like if we follow this line of reasoning, then the "default mode" for humans is committing suicide.
Interesting. The existentialists would be baffled.
Camels don't know they are in air. Fish think they are idiots.
In the book "How Students Learn," John Branford invokes text from the children's book Fish is Fish by Leo Lionni to help frame learning along the lines of preconceptions, competence in areas of inquiry and "metacognitive" approach to instruction:
In the story, a young fish is very curious about the world outside the water. His good friend the frog, on returning from the
land, tells the fish about it excitedly:
“I have been about the world—hopping here and there,”
said the frog, “and I have seen extraordinary things.”
“Like what?” asked the fish.
“Birds,” said the frog mysteriously. “Birds!” And he told the fish about the birds, who had wings, and two legs, and
many, many colors. As the frog talked, his friend saw the
birds fly through his mind like large feathered fish.
The illustrations are amazing!
http://books.google.com/books/about/Fish_is_fish.html?id=Tl-Ahb5tANMC
WOW!!!! that's great dude, thanks for sharing. Man it's great you managed to realise that.
God, I don't know why I didn't see that people are different. Maybe because I couldn't think of a clever title for it.
PS. In case you Americans don't know us Brits are sarcastic. It's funny.
Thanks Bob for your great comment/question #163. I've often wondered the same thing myself.
Derek, good reminder the challenge of keeping posts simple and clear.
Yap!
Everyone of us is a little bit like that.
But you don't have to go that far...
Most of us Europeans think Americans live inside a bubble.
They don't have the same information we have and they don't really care about what happens in "the outside".
I was amazed when my American cousins were asking me with pride what we (Europeans) thought about the invasion of Iraq!
yes Derek, as a Singaporean, I agree with you on the diversified viewpoints between a Singaporean and an American.
Your story has set me thinking about my current situation - An aspiring entrepreneur whom feel pressurized by friends and families to stay grounded to job security. Hmm, I guess it's time for me to start living my dreams.
Personally, I think Singapore needs more inspiring individuals like yourself whom can help inject creativity and vibrancy to the society. So I am very grateful that you are here with us, and I certainly hope you can inspire more Singaporeans to live their dreams.
By any chance I can find out which local business school classes that you are involved in?
Thank you! I'm not involved in specific classes. Just speaking at INSEAD, NUS, and SMU occasionally. Feel free to email me anytime. -- Derek
One of the best articles around over-confidence still is
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/opinion/27brooks.html
Favourite quote: "Humans are overconfident creatures. [...] Since the masters of finance have been exposed as idiots, the masters of government have concluded (somewhat illogically) that they must be really smart."
yeah there are a lot of things we do that are stupid to outsiders...but it's the same for all cultures. In asia they eat bugs...and in U.S. noone would be caught with a bug in their mouth
Thanks for this post, perspective really does matter and you don't miss water til the well runs dry.
I have really never traveled out of the country but I've lived in different cultures of the US. Growing up on a Midwestern farm, I was very sheltered. Moving to some places where I was the minority really began to change my perspective on life. Living in Miami taught me that an entirely different side of the world existed which I never knew until that point. Maybe we should play musical chairs and just switch homes or something.
Ancestor worship, or filial piety so characteristic of Asian cultures does not really resonate with Americans who favor children, not parents
Reading and watching you always brings me to a new way at looking at something, thanks for that. I guess we assume everyone acts and thinks like us Americans, people must think we are crazy!
The dead fish swim with the flow - they do not know that. It is good to think about.
I love your articles and videos on TED.com (this I must also thank the people who form the Czech translation - otherwise I would not understand). You write a short article on a topic - and we can think about the topic hours. You are amazing, thanks.
...I love *you* articles... - of course
.
This is an awesome post. I feel the same way about religion. People try to force their beliefs on someone, but they only believe things for the same reason the other does: They grew up believing it.
Cultural psychology differs from other areas not only organizationally, but also philosophically. In contrast to psychologists who tend to assume that their findings and theories are universal until proven otherwise, cultural psychologists tend to assume that their findings and theories are culturally variable
Being from Asia, I completely agree.
I always wondered why people from the west leave their families at the age of 18.
There was one time, I went to NZ, and I was surprised that American strangers talked to me without any hesitation. It was a culture shock because Asians normally ignore strangers.
I completely agree that cultural psychology differes from one country to the next. During the time I was getting my Marketing degree, this was one area that we spent some time on becuase they are so different and in marketing you need to be aware of all the differences. Awesome way to point this out..
You a gave a good talk about interpretation, Japan and US addresses. If we apply that here I see there is something in every culture to learn and leave. Swami Vivekananda gave a beautiful talk about this.
"When I told one that I left home at 17, she was horrified. She said, “Isn't that horribly insulting to your parents? Weren't they devastated?”"
Aww thats the sweetest thing ever!! You hit the nail on the head when you said that "rebellion" was one of the things that causes teens to move out.
The Harris video doesn't make sense to me. So he is trying to prove morality with science by assuming what morality is? That's just circular reasoning.