Venue for audience to mix their own audio
2009-09-22
Imagine if each audience member could make their own real-time live mix of a show they were attending.
It would start with a typical music venue. Elevated stage and big space for the audience.
But the entire stage is behind a thick glass window, like a recording studio. On stage the musicians are in isolation booths, though still visible to the audience.
The individual channels of audio are fed back into the audience, one for each microphone or input.
Each audience member is wearing headphones and holding a little controller device (like an iPod Touch), because underneath each seat is a little computer to do mixing, processing, and recording.
The device has the instruments labeled, with little volume, EQ, and effects sliders for each.
An audience member could mute the guitarist, put a lopass filter on the drums, an envelope filter on the bass, and some crazy echo on the vocals. It doesn't matter what they do, because they're the only ones who can hear it like that in their headphones.
There is no PA system. There is no definitive mix. The venue is silent. Each audience member is hearing a different mix of their own creation.
Everything they do is recorded to the computer underneath their seat, so when they're done, they can get a USB stick with a good stereo copy of the mix they made.
The band also gets to collect all of these mixes after each show, in case they get any new ideas from hearing their music reimagined by strangers each night. The band can release any mix as long as they credit the audience member who did it. (The artist can choose to release the tracks under a Creative Commons license for either personal or commercial use.)
It'd be a niche afficianado music fan who would come to a concert like this, since they wouldn't do the usual shouting over the music to their friends. (Maybe it'd be more like going to a movie, where you experience something with your friends, even though you're not talking through it.)
Some people would love to come for the education: they've never heard instruments in isolation before. By watching the musician on stage while mixing them, they can better understand each instrument in a way they can't when mixed in with everything else.
Some aspiring engineers and remixers would come to show off their creative mixing skills, in hopes of impressing other music fans or even the artist.
Some big-name artists would enjoy playing this venue for the unique experience of it, and knowing they're playing exclusively for serious music-geek fans who will be appreciating their performance with an intensity that a typical audience does not.
A city like New York, LA, or London has enough tourists and musicians that an odd venue like this could stay in business.
Anyone want to do it? Talk with the brilliant Peter Gregson if you do, since this idea came from our conversation yesterday.
Really cool idea - some similar concerts have been run in Cape Town, but without the individual mix-ability - just 'silent' gigs with the whole audience on headphones.
The one thing that I think needs thinking about is the band in isolation boxes. Perhaps silent drums, guitars through pods etc. would be a better idea so that the physical intimacy could still be present?
No, thank you! I cannot begin to tell you how repulsive I find this idea!! There are artists like David Amram who have always invited interaction with the audience, but I'm not like that - I have too much invested of myself, my time, effort, attention and money to want my audience "editing" my music before it's even been fully presented.
This is an awesome idea! All the more so applied to "classical" settings like a quartet or small orchestra. Thks for mentioning Peter Gregson - it's great to hear of people who take the "classical" out of classical music!
crazy, yet very interesting idea! and people would stop running to the FOH-engineer to leave their comments bout what they think should be louder... haha.
who will do the lights? ;-)
You must be a democrat
This sounds both cool and interesting. And I have a variation on the theme that I've been most eager to develop. I would like to give members of the "audience" various ways to provide input - probably translated into midi - that finds its way to the artists/producers, who in turn would work with the input and shape it, repurpose it and build it into the piece (and the mix). Multiple "producers" could work together and play off each other, listening to the same input material but operating on those inputs in very different ways. The feedback loop between "audience" and "artists/producers" would be quite interesting. It seems that a starting point for this experiment might be brought to fruition using Ableton Live and iPhones as midi input devices.
Brilliant idea, no doubt! But how does one pull it off? I'd love to be in that audience to do some mixing. However, the mixing device should be slightly bigger than an iPod.
Maybe something with a 8 inch screen?
Cheers
Man .... it'd be like stepping in a restaurant and demanding the basic ingredients of your dish. Telling the waiter "forget the chef ... I'll do my salad my own way today".
That is an interesting point of view.
As a non musician I have serious hesitation in asking for opinions of people (like myself) who enjoy music but LIKE the fact that there are talented people out there creating music for my enjoyment.
The cream always rises.
It sounds like a great idea in principle but what turns me off it is the fact that music events are one of the few times that communities interact now. Too often people are plugged into their ipods, phones or bluetooth to the detriment of interaction with fellow beings. This would just be like an extension of that and I find that somewhat disconcerting. Having a mass of people in the same place, for the same reason and totally ignoring each other? Hmmm..........
I like the headphone thing ...
Mabe beams of light coming down on each person ...
I still think you need hired people for a general mix ...
mabe up on each side of the stage ... somewhere different ... and people come just for a good time ... to enjoy ,,, not everyone is as concerned with the little details...headphones and seats that move with the beat of the bass and drums .
Wind and fog ... for visual
that would be so cool ... lots of money for a show like that .. iwant to be in one of them ... pick me.
Hmmmm. Mixed feelings on that. I can't help but feel it takes out the 'artist' in YOU because it leaves a lot of creative ideas to the fan. As an artist I want to share MY vision. But from a business point of view, very clever.
One step farther could be to set up a live feed on the internet but with the same options for the fan (that might be a few years down the road), and anyone sitting in front of a computer with a few tools could do the same thing.
Thanks for sharing as always. Your creative mind inspires.
Derek, this is truly science fiction, but I bet within a year or two..
Been thinking about what you wrote yesterday, about bands selling their CD during and after concerts.. Well, what if the concert what recorded and a CD was included in the tickets, or even better, the income would be strictly based on peoples wish to keep a memory of a good concert experience.
Now, with these new ideas of you and Peter Gregson, every single track or instrument could go into a kind of Industry Remixing Standard, and then back home people could do their own remixes, and finally submit to the band's home-page - like I remember you already reported about in a video.
Exciting ideas,
thanks for sharing
S i g v e
Frighteningly 21st century idea.
Doesn't sound like much fun for the band...
Time waits for noone i guess.
All Macs come with 'garageband' software. It's SUPER easy for anyone to do just this (even change instruments on the fly). Not sure there would be any real type of paying, sustainable audience for something like this.
Also, don't forget about bass shakers attached to the chairs!
It would be about the audience member - not the composer or the composition. The very ideal of the piece would be lost on many pieces where the counter lines would fail to be heard and sensitive tonalities and movements too - but I would also be curious to attend such an event (although I can mix my own stuff any time I like!). Good to study individual instrumental performances. Interesting - but not an evergreen!
Aviom systems are used a lot by musicians on stage to create their own mixes for their headphone monitors. I guess this is fun. I don't really like using Aviom systems much.
I feel disconnected from what's happening unless I just accept I'm in my private Idaho playing bass.
I don't know but staring at screen mixing at a concert isn't my idea of a good time. It is a cool idea though and I am sure many people would have a good time with it. Boutique concerts. It takes the control of the sound away from the sound people to a large degree. As a musician I always feel at the mercy or the sound people for better or worse. I miss just having some amps and playing without all the sound B.S.
Times change and it's all one big mash up I suppose.
But I am livin in Germany!!!!!!
Appreciation for quality music to the skilled ear of the musician.
As for fans, the thrill of the crowd, any sound can arouse a multitude of moods.
A natural extension of the processes that began with mix tapes and mash-ups way back when. Since the band is still producing the music to be mixed in real-time, this arrangement is just adding a layer of interactivity to the experience that didn't exist before. Very cool idea!
The concept is good. But you would have to decide on the music of what people want to hear. If they don't really care for the music, they may not really care to do this. Perhaps it would have to be cover-band music. But I think this would work really well in a science center setting, rather than just an ordinary venue.
Love the out-of-the-box thinking though!
Solitoode
While that is a possibility in technical terms, it would make sense only in educational environments.
Let's face it: Most people who listen to music don't know what to listen for, neither on recordings nor live. They are coming there for "the experience" and that experience is delivered to a few of their senses in a cooked format, not frozen to be thawed, spiced, then cooked, etc.
If your idea were to be realized, we could eliminate the stage, too, and have four cameras, and the audience would make their own video mixes. This in turn would make it unnecessary to even show up. Why not just stream it to people's homes where they can do this on the fly, or edit a recording later (back to square one).
The idea of concerts and recording finalization by an audience coming closer is an interesting idea. As long as this type of event would not be labeled "concert" but something else, sure – this would be a new type of event.
Who would attend if not done inside Berklee or MIT?
Writing a song is hard, I think mixing a song is extremely hard, if not harder. I would hate to hear some of the final individual mixes, lol
Ah maybe it's my ears, I'm not 20 anymore...
But It would be interesting...
sorry, don't like this idea at all. if i was performing, i'd like the audience to be concentrating on me and not the mix. if i was the audience, i would rather the mix engineer took responsibility for the sound, so that i could ignorantly enjoy the show.
but i am probably not the sort of person to be attracted by this idea. i'm the sort that uses presets on my software rather than try and get my own sounds...too many choices...
on a different tangent, why doesn't subway have a computer touchscreen at it's entrance, so that you can quickly tick off all your choices, and by the time you get to the front of the queue, you don't have to answer 20 questions about what sort of filling etc you want...????
when i first saw just the title, i was simultaneously repulsed and intrigued by the idea. having read the whole thing... i am still similarly torn. it would be an interesting experiment, but i don't think i'd want this to be the way audiences experience music in general. the mix is just as much a part of the music as any instrument, and as such should be controlled by the artists.
hmmm? Imagine if famous artists such as Salvador Dali, or Vincent Van Gogh allowed people to step in with a paint brush.
I think the idea is interesting -and to each his own.
BUT - it sure takes the individual out of it.
So much of that seems to be happening on a global scale with everything. Not just entertainment but everything.
Too many cooks spoil the stew.
Who needs musicians anyways? Nobody dances to music anymore, unless it's electronic. They just sit there and watch and critique. They could do without us altogether and stroke themselves with Garageband.
Our culture doesn't want artists anyhow, they want "a brand experience."
Here at the Future Shape Of Sound we applaud this idea as an interactive human sound sculpture or art exhibit. Or even more so as an experimental way to record/mix an album. It is the nature of experiments that you don't know what the result will be. Most of the time results may be unusable but some of the time the results are genius. Once you have all the results the genius producer can then edit all the genius moments together and come up with something that noone could have thought of individually.
However, for your average sweaty Rock'n'Roll gig we recommend the possibly outdated method of keeping the punters well away from the mixing desk area.
The tech implications are considerable but once installed the interactive sound mixing sculpture can be used again and again. Something for the Tate Modern in London maybe? Mr Sivers is an ideas man but has too many ideas to put them all into practice. So if a gentleman by the name of Brian Eno reads this would you please call Mr Sivers and get on with it! I'll help.
Yours truly
Capt Future
Sounds like a pricey investment in equipment.
How about this?
Do it online through streaming software and have local software to do the mixing. Stream each instrument separately and put it all together with the local software on the listener's computer.
The listeners pay a fee to join the streamed concert and end up with a CD of the show on their computers.
The software takes care of any copyright/licensing issues out of the fees.
The show is not limited to a geographical area but will reach a world wide audience.
The investment is a one-time programming cost for the software, a custom studio setup, and accounting procedures.
The return is payment to the band, the programmers, and the songwriters.
Maybe the software could allow a later remix - e.g. take out the guitar so that the listened could play along to the mix? (Like Music minus one (R) only more flexible).
Are we in the 21st century or what?
That was a great description! What's more, I don't think it's all that far away for us to be able to do something like this. It's one of those mutually beneficial things, where the band can charge a higher price because the audience gets to keep a copy of their music.
I must say, that's extremely visionary of you.
It's clearly a concept that sprung from a very creative mind. It's good to brainstorm like that and express your ideas, no matter how crazy or far-fetched they may seem at first. My initial thought was that, yeah, the average fan can't mix sound, or wouldn't want to -- it would detract from the experience of just being there. But my next thought was that this would be an excellent teaching tool for sound engineers at schools like Berklee, for example. Then each student's work could be entered for a prize or award, judged by the band, and the teacher of course. Or how 'bout for a reality show called "So, you want to be a sound engineer?" ;) (or a video series just for students of MP&E). The component of your idea of making a concert experience unique to each individual hearer is so space age... it's trippy. It's a different concept from the connectedness of the collective audience. How many times have you gone into a bar or a small to medium sized venue and wanted to tell the band "too much bass" or "too much highs" or whatever? It's a cool idea to put that in the fans' hands. People like to adjust the EQ on their own car stereo, right? And sometimes they make changes to the mix depending on what CD they are listening to... So, I can see where you'd extrapolate that into a concert venue. Yet another unique idea from a forward thinker... Have a great day
definitely would fill a niche, sounds like a big investment in dollars to find out if it will work, I would suggest some smaller steps to test the waters. Perhaps an option on a concert with one or two systems available for purchase. Put those paying customers in their own quiet room for their own mixing pleasure while the rest of the normal crowd gets to hear the regular house mix and the band plays like normal.... so, the people in the quiet room who paid the bucks for the private mix will get to do their own mix and save it, etc....
With this, you could start by providing ONE extra mixer seat for sale... you would then have to just pull the direct out of every channel off the house board into a separate firewire device and laptop setup with the mixer controls provided by the firewire device... let them record it right on the laptop and turn it in at the end of the night.... low expense and you get to see what kind of person responds.
cheers
Scott
Too much distraction. Too costly. Everyone that attends my show, does not own Ipods neither do I. I think it will take away from the show. I believe that attention put on mixing will break the muscians concentration to produce quality music. It could work for some but not many.
I wish I had been that successful in my life like you Derek! I envy you ;)
I think that there ARE some people who want a 'brand experience' but there are also a lot of other people who would love to experiment with things like this, both audience and bands - not all the time, but once in a while. It would be fun if you could also listen, during the show, to other people's mixes to see what others are doing, to get inspired, to emulate and improve their own listening skills, to hear what others hear and share that experience. I admit I would not want to be a fan of a band who then ONLY does this sort of performance, but I would love to go to something like that. It would also give the band an impression of how THEIR FANS might like to hear the music. This is NOT to say the band should then find the common denominator and use it, but they could certainly hear their music in a new way and maybe be inspired by it - or horrified!!!!
It is very avant garde and very exciting, but I do like community sharing. We have become very insular over the last decade or two and this does smack of that, but heck, what fun to try it out!
Its an interesting concept.I'd like to try the beta version.Thanks Derek!
This solves the ever-growing problem of 'how to get butts in the seats' that every band, no matter how big...seems to have. This is an experience that gives a totally "unique" reason for attending a live show. You won't experience this any other way. One of the biggest complaints after a live show - is EVERYONE would like...the vocals louder, the guitar softer, more drums, the bass was too muffled, etc. You cannot please everyone, or...can you? This idea actually does serve the entire audience on their individual level. Having a main engineer to give the person who doesn't want to be a technie during the show and just wants a live mix, then allowing the techno-junkies to "play" is just SO much fun. The band gets interaction with the fan and as Todd Rundgren says "Music becomes a service again." Great ideas as always, Derek.
I have my doubts derek,,,,I would have to check it out first,of course. Like holding hands walking with your babe to the malt shop,,,,call it old-fashion,,,,certain things I like left alone,when the bands on stage,,,,its their show,,,Im just the critic,,,,,,,k.sokol
This would be great as a video game or as some other entertainment format but I think the thrill (if there is any to start off with) would wear off pretty quickly. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to offer live music. When a group of musicians play together it is the interaction that makes or breaks the magic ( admittedly a bad mix can greatly hinder the creation of the magic but that is a problem with the sound engineers ears). The bottom line is the audience should be there for the musical experience that the musicians offer.
Ah, the imaginings of strangers.
I'm so glad it's provoked a bit of opinion!
For me, it isn't about saying this is going to last, or that it is more valid than a traditional concert, but I firmly believe that we as performers/producers of music must be asking questions and never settling.
I have been planning on doing the first of these events (early stages!) at FOWA, London in a few weeks and then looking to go back to NYC to launch it in February. If anyone's interested in doing this with me, please drop me a line - pg @ petergregson.co.uk
Cheers!
totally not digging this from the musician standpoint ... first, there's the tremendous cost of setting it up for a live show ... but second, and more importantly, an artist should be able to present their art however they like ... this completely rids the artist of most of the control over the manner & method of presentation of their art ...
It's like saying to a painter - ok, present your portrait, but give the audience paint & paintbrushes & let them re-paint it for you. Or to the poet, hey let the audience change the words around. It's ART. Not a toy.
Beth
oh very nice
I've been mixing my own sound via ProTools, and now Samplitude for about 3 years now. I would kill to experience something like this. The problem of course, is being able to do it in real time as opposed to the snails pace I do it in my studio. Still, I'd attend for sure!
This would attract engineers and audiophiles, but lose energy in the performance and turn off most concert goers. Great for technophiles... horrible for people like my wife that can't even pull the bass line out of a track.
Why apply the idea only to concerts. It would be easier to produce copies of the master tapes of all the tracks from famous albums. It has long been a fantasy of mine to get that for like the Beatles, Zeppelin or Queen, where you can go in and listen to each track separately and finally find out the components that make the soundscape or what exactly is played in by an instrument mixed low in the background.
I think that is totally awesome, especially since the music is really dominated by the engineering side and technology on the whole. great stuff you guys...
i could see this happening today. it'd be expensive, but technically feasible. i'd take it another step though and monitor all the mixes in real time, enabling folks to switch to the 'average mix' (or a house engineers mix) and then tweak from there if they wanted to. you could also link it up with the lighting so whichever artist averaged "up" the highest would be the brightest, or the bluest, or have a disco ball turn on in their cube... kinda destroys the intimacy of the stage environment but for just one venue it sounds like fun.
My thoughts as far as letting individuals mix amateur sound for a professional band would be fine for their own use,education and fun but not allow them to release it - at least without the artists approval. I wouldn't want someone releasing something that involved my art in a way that I felt unbecoming. And most of the general public doesn't know a thing about a sound mix. I also question the cost of that many computers and how long this fad would last to justify the cost. On the other hand- at EVERY show I am at- no matter the venue size - I at least have 1 person that lurks around the board and is itching to turn the knobs. I have owned night clubs and am thinking it would be a cool twist to have something like that as a regular one day a week deal - maybe Thursday nights or something. Man something has to replace and upgrade Karaoke in the Utah clubs.
Honestly, I can't think of anything GOOD about this idea. First of all, music is ultimately a conversation between the musicians themselves and between the musicians and the audience. Isolating the musicians removes a large part of the musicians' ability to communicate withe reach other. And if the audience, rather than reacting and responding to the musicians and their music, is concentrating on 'mixing', that's ultimately as distracting as trying to talk to someone who is busy texting...
Second, a good mix is very seldom done in real time - unless it's simply a 'push up the faders and go' mix (in which case, the novelty of an 'audience mix' is over by the second song). There's a reason why engineers will often spend between 2 and 8 hours mixing a three minute song and it's not just because that's billable time. If the audience CAN just push up the levels and 'create' the mix, the real reason is that the musicians' are effectively mixing themselves (like musicians who listen to each other are SUPPOSED to do).
Third, the idea that "The band can release any mix as long as they credit the audience member who did it" is just plain silly. Even if you only have 20 people in the audience (a sure money-losing night for the band), a 90 minute show means that SOMEONE would need to listen to 30 hours of the punters' mixes if they were looking for something to release; if the band does only 3 shows a week, digging through those audience supplied mixes would be more than a full time job for TWO people.
To sum it up, this idea would interfere with band's creation of their music, with the audience's interaction with the band and the end result is likely to be pretty average - and useless to the band anyway, since no one in the band would have time to listen to what the audience mixes sound like.
As a musician, I wouldn't care to play this sort of venue (unless there's a lot of money involved). As a music fan, I wouldn't care to attend a show in this sort of venue.
O.K. I am now thinking that not only would the public find it fun and educational, but you could get garage bands to use the event as a practice session at your club - meaning you don't pay them much to be there and in some cases not at all since they are just getting into music. They get a mixed album out of it- of their choice of the mixes. The "Winner Mixer" or Master ( whatever you want to title the sound person) gets credits on a website. hmmmm? You could also get novice photographers involved for the album covers. Then the wanna be and upcoming bands who can't afford a studio will welcome the event and bring the loyal fans as well as outside public to compete for the credits of mix. The end of the season could promote a finals contest for the best album as well.
This would be a Mall thing. There would be a bunch of $10-an-hour guys on the "stage" and a bunch of mall rats at the Behringer mixers. Or a video of stars, if you need stars.
It reminds me of the NASCAR mall shop where a bunch of guys climb into a bunch of what looks like actual NASCAR cars. Each car has a screen in front of it, where the driver sees his perspective of his car and all the other cars in the room, in real time. Way too cool.
I like what #31 Bass4Uphill said. There might be enough nuts out there to support that.
Or better yet maybe we can issue everyone a device that will deliver a cyber ice-pick in the eyes** of the "sound men" at concerts when the sound sucks because all you can hear is bass and kick - no snare - no vocal - no guitar - no keys - etc. All of this from well paid "professionals" with high dollar equipment no less.
**might as well be blind too because they are obviously deaf.
A nice idea for the sake of experimentation, but we're not really talking about "big-name artists" doing much of anything artistic. It's like directing your own play or painting your own portrait. The attendees might have a little fun at trying this, kind of like a game, but the product of art coming forth from the artist(s) is not there. This is the sort of activity that belongs at a children's museum; as a musician, this is not something I'd be interested in seeing happen in a real stage setting. It's not worth turning on all that electricity.
I think it's a weird idea and I'm very curious to try it.
For me, it is taking the music into the direction of interactive performance art which I like as an idea...a little less 'muso' and a little more open to chance.
I think actually it's a very cool idea. I'd do it.
As a musician in it though, having said that, I might want visual contact with the others and I can't remember if you said we'd be able to hear the other musicians in real time?
Clare
Going to google the Cape Town concerts that mentioned in the first comment.
Different experience entirely, and it would be interesting to see who would show up. It was interesting watching people practice in sound proof rooms at school though, so maybe it would not be only musicians or people like me who like to crank the bass on everything.
I haven't asked but I don't think my son would want to see Lamb of God that way because he likes it when people try to throw him on stage and the headphones might get trampled under foot.
.
I do believe that you have discovered the next great video game... "remix"....you know in the same genre of "Guitar Hero"... yeah I know you weren't headed in that direction....lol
Well I'm sure that I would have a better mix than I have heard at some concerts (#31 and 53)and I wouldn't be deaf from the volume. But without intimately knowing the bands arrangements the nuances could be lost. Some of my best parts have been lost at concerts because the sound guy had me potted down :-(
C'est la vie.
I didn't even finish reading this one...it sounds like a college course in music...no way could I go for this one...one could hardly call this a performance...
There have been many brilliant ideas coming from this page,but I don't believe this to be one of them. We are already so isolated by our recent technology, everyone with their faces lit up blue from a screen glow and buried under headphones, and that's at shows. Even the names of all our gadgets and networks are exercises in self absorption. "Ipod, Iphone,My space". One of the most important things we have that pulls us out of this is the shared experience of a live show or the shared viewing of a film in a theater. I can think of nothing more sterile and Orwellian than what you have just described. That type of sonic dissection and observation is a nice idea as an informative experience one might have as one would at an aquarium or museum of science. But a concert is also about a physical and an emotional exhange. That may mean it is a contemplative and moving experience or just fun,butt shaking exhilaration. But either way it seems that by allowing individuals to cut and paste what they here at a show would cut out the very spirit of what is taking place on stage and in the room. Can you imagine dialing out John Doe's vocals at an X concert just to hear Excene's? Those vocals working together define the very sound of that band.
I recently performed a concert in the attic of a 100 year old house during a rain storm. There were 25 or so people sitting around. You could hear their breathing, feel the warmth of the candles that were burning. Reactions to reactions were experienced. Even if it had been a concert hall with full orchestra and 1000 people in the seats, I can't imagine the performers would feel the same energy coming back to them if each individual was having a seperate experience under headphones.
Hi Derek,
I could never see the band wanting to spend hours and hours after a show listening to audience mixes. Nor could I see some upstart mixologist getting noticed from being an audience member mixing a live show. Too low signal to noise ratio.
From the band's perspective I think this could be a great positive, if their audience digs it - it could certainly set them apart and get them a lot of press.
As an audience member, I would not be interested in taking home my own mix. However, I would get a kick out of being able to play with the mix while listening.
The feature I'd want to see in addition would be a choice of mixes to listen to. I could dial in the "official" house mix. I could dial in each musician's personal monitor mix. I could dial in my own mix, or maybe even my friend's mix - we could jab one another and say "listen to it this way..."
But all that messing around wouldn't lead to a mix I created that I'd want to keep. I'd rather take home the house mix, plus the individual tracks, so I could mix it myself later on garage band, and really spend some time on it.
Hey, then you could have a website where fans could post their mixes later. People might do that if there was a competition to re-mix a particular song from the show. Someone might hope to get "discovered" as a great mixer that way.
I do that all the time. It.s called recording studio session. I go away and learn about what I sound like and get ideas. I wonder if I could get some competent producers to pay to mix me simultaneously....?hmmmm,
maybe if it were an internet stream.
I think the idea is intriguing and thought-provoking. Naturally, those of us who play live enjoy the interaction with the audience, the sound and feel of our instruments reverberating throughout the room, and we can do that at every other venue we play. This is just one performance where those things would be lacking in the traditional sense, but would be made up for in the novelty of the experience and the hands-on fun for the audience. It's just something new and different to try once, and if people dig it, you can try it again. Maybe get some new mix ideas in the process!
)
As far as getting recordings of mixes, the only problem I see there is that, like with most live mixing (with the house sound engineer), it usually takes a verse or so to settle into a good mix. So the first bit of the song might be taken up with experimenting with levels and effects, then I guess the rest of the song would level out. But most people would probably want to continue playing with the mix. I can see how it might be time consuming to listen to all the song mixes from all the attendees and try to sort out ideas that interest you or would be releasable. But it's a neat way to draw the fans – and audio geeks – in! It goes along with that feeling of connectedness we were disagreeing about yesterday. I can honestly see our fans being into this! (Audio geeks that most of them are…!
Ooo, I like Monty's idea of taking home house tracks and mixing them! That's neat!
It would be the most BORING show on earth.
wow..maybe each audience member could come up with a better lyric for each phrase, and maybe be able to substitute different chord structures and melodic phrases...for that matter, why even have a band?
What group want to risk potential crappy mixes of their stuff floating around?? Posted online!! I mean, there are raw tracks of famous songs available online for the novice to mix and remix, but these are songs that are long established in their original form. Any independent band trying to get established always wants to be represented in top form. Right?
This is the anti-brilliant idea in a brainstorming session.
Beautiful!
Derek, you have stimulated as much thought with this one as any of the inspiring stories!
Bravo!
Sounds like a fun thing to visit like the Experience Music Project in Seattle but I wouldn't want to live there.
umm.... pass.
Creepy! May I use this scene in my sci fi novel?
Might as well throw the band out of the scene. Just provide a prerecorded multitrac and put dancers and a light jockey on the stage. Is it "ART" or entertainment? Who is willing to pay, and how much?
Brilliant. An actual viable music business. Derek, have you considered a career in the independent music industry? Oh, wait . . .
Create a tiny niche on both sides, vendor and client (band and fan)—narrow niches are easier to own.
Sure it's a scary idea. The bands who get past the fear will have a core of hysterical rabid fans.
"My mix is the only mix" is old-school scarcity thinking. The winners in both the business and artistic arenas will be those who can allow someone to disagree with them entirely—and still be right.
I would do this in a heartbeat. Yes, with my own music. I can't imagine a greater artistic buzz than hearing how my fans (wow! I could have fans!) hear my music.
Why go to a live show? Why don't the band do one show sent it to everybody on the planet and have people mix in there house or on the road on on the moon for that matter. Why have a band at all. Just throw some crap together and have million of would be mixers mix-up any s#$% they want.
Question for you. I would like your professional opinion of this: When a band is performing and says they are feeding off the crowd when they jump around picking songs on the fly from the song list. I believe that practise is "rank amateur"..... I say stick to the song list in the presentation so everyone knows what comes next. Pulling a song "from the hat" is a RX for disaster. What do you think and Thanks. John
Hi Derek, It's a great idea but certainly couldn't happen especially in New York. We are losing our music venues daily, rent is putting these places out of business. I've played The Cutting Room a few times in the last two years and now thats gone. Open mics are few and far between. The future of live music is similar to selling cd's--less and less. Hopefully you will come up with the answer!
Ha ha Derek, now you are in my world. As a scientist I love doing things piece by piece. I do all my music like that. I compose my own music instrument by instrument adjusting the tuning,toneing which is resonance, echoes, octaves and on and on. building in the rest of the instruments including the rhythm instruments in fact I start the composing with a rhythm going around in my head. Thanks to the latest technology provided by Korgs Pa2x the studio is the Pa2x with a high tech headset. My friends love to visit when I'm doing this composing and arranging and plug in their own headset. I can just picture an entire audience going through the composeing/arranging session with me.This can be at least a part of the future in music.
Island Frank
GREAT IDEA...AND AS AN EXTENSION OF THE IDEA, WHAT ABOUT HAVING DUPLICATE MUSICIANS; SAY TWO BASS PLAYERS (OBVIOUSLY ONLY ONE WOULD BE HEARD BY THE BAND)OR TWO DRUMMERS. THE AUDIENCE COULD SWITCH BETWEEN THEM.
It seems to me that these "concerts" are more performance art than standard concert; yet it appears that both the performers and the audience at these particular events have collectively decided that it is no longer the song itself that matters.
It's definitely an interesting idea. However, the one problem I can see in its implementation is that fact that one has to be familiar with the material in order to (re)mix it. Perhaps some sort of limitation could be placed on what audience members can do with the mix, as not to destroy the core idea of the musicians? This way, the musicians would be less frightened to let go of the reigns and audience members who are not intimately familiar with the material could still have some fund moving faders.
Sorry, that should say FUN, not FUND.
Well....interesting, but not practical at all.....physical issues with the venue, cost, musicians can't interact, etc........
I had a similar idea in which one would basically route/mix everything through the pa with relatively small output....then each table would have its' own satellite speaker with adjustable volume......well there's a problem here too....needs to be wireless, but speakers would be powered....only option for that is batteries.......again not pratical...ONE DAY!!!!....I hate wires........!!!!
I'm thinking this would be excellent for a science museum exhibit... for adults or kids... everyone could get a chance at running lights, sound... and they'd be working with and watching real musicians... after the musicians get tired or finished their set, a new act would come in. You could get 10 or more different acts a day. It would be a great way for the musicians to get exposure, and provide a public service that would endear the public to them even more.
I'd be very skeptical that this would have much appeal except to a select few. I personally would not be interested in doing that. Then again I do enough mixing at home.
Another way to make this idea happen:
Link several well known mixing personalities with a cool performer or band - so that while the performer(s) are playing live, the engineers are tweaking and mixing in real time. The audience can choose from a variety of channels - channel one might be a groove/dance mix interpretation, channel two might be a jazz interpretation, channel 3 dancehall reggae flavor, channel 4 acoustic with nature noises, etc.
The rules could be that basically the mixer can use (or not use) any and all instruments being played, plus they can add any sample or tweak any instrument with any device they like. Mixers can practice beforehand, but the goal is to do the thing live, so they are truly part of the performance.
The band could either sell various mixes at the end of the show, and/or they could make a best of compilation (becuase some songs will work better in one format than another) and sell it on their website ex post facto.
Credits would go to both the mixer (because s/he is adding something unique to the performance) and the artist.
It could be really interesting to pair various artists with engineers. I would go to a show like that... & I would love to be a performer and see what cool mixers could come up with!
Another option could be to do this sort of experiment in a school, where there are mixers who need practice and performers who need to figure out their style. Both groups could really win in that case.
If it were to happen in a small club, it might develop a cult following. Some nights could be awful, but there would also be some really inspired moments worth catching....
You could do the same type of thing at a drive-in movie theater setting. Before the movie, have a couple of acts do their songs... the music would come through everyone's car radios or the speakers on the stands and they can eq it there. Not sure how the recording of it part would work though.
Interesting, I like the concept.
You know, Derek, there’s a old adage familiar to Latin culture which tries to describe someone who is trying to expand on a subject that is already working very well; this is described as, “Looking for more than one tail on the cat.” And this idea of yours today, reminds me of this aphorism….
As a musician who has always prided himself with the responsibility of giving the audience a live performance far beyond what they expected to enjoy for the price of their concert ticket, I find this notion repulsive. From years of touring, I can affirm that almost everyone at a concert obtains more satisfaction when they see the artist sweat during their performance and when they feel the air in the venue moved by the sound waves created by the music. During a real “live” performance, the contained atmosphere in the venue is actually changed and this is the experience that brings so many people together – it’s a fundamental component of the feeling that they seek to experience from a live performance!
This novel concept of yours would deprive the audience of this entertaining / healing / consciousness-raising experience while, at the same time, the isolation of the musicians would negate the artistic communion that we, basically, live for. For that matter, you could take this a step further and set up a rig whereupon the artists don’t even have to show up at the venue, but could be performing anywhere else (at home, at a studio, out in a cow pasture, etc.) and have their holographic image representing them at the concert. But, bringing it technologically down a notch, why not project a video on a screen and charge the same admission as if the band were actually there, performing for the audience? Sure….why not simply project the band’s YouTube clips on an iMax screen and charge concert prices, distributing free headphones, as JetBlue airlines does when one boards one of their flights?
As a member of The Manhattan Transfer band for 13 years, I can tell you about an experiment that the band conducted during one of the hundred of shows that I participated in. During the band sound-check on a European tour, us musicians recorded the intro song of the concert (the song, “Birdland”, by Joe Zawinul and popularized by the group, Weather Report…whose vocal version became a trademark for the Manhattan Transfer!)…a song that was consistently performed and timed to the second. On this fateful day, as the TMT singers strode out onto the stage, with the tape rolling, each musician had changed instrument, acting as if they were actually performing on a different ax! The four singers did not realize this until the last couple of choruses, when they turned around to look at the sax solo being “performed” by the drummer. Momentary panic showed on their faces, but they kept it together and the song came to a successful completion, whereupon all musicians, visible to the audience, switched places, assuming their legitimate designations and instruments. The audience took it as a novelty act / gag and, since a train wreck did not actually happen, a good laugh was shared by all. (The band pulled this prank only ONCE!!!) Had the whole concert been previously taped, I doubt that the crowd reaction would have been the same.
What you are suggesting is conceptually about offering the concert-goer his means of individual and personal quality control – he/she gets to hear the show like they want to hear it. But, if it’s the other way around – if the artist lip-synchs his own show in order to ensure that their voice or their instrument is sounding just as good as the CD…. Then the audience always has an issue with this! (re.: Milli Vanilli & Ashlee Sympson) When I toured on Talia’s HighVoltage world tour, the press was constantly attempting to determine whether she was guilty of this…..
To me, a major part of the necessity of expressing myself as a musician has always been the FUN of producing sound and rhythms that touched people’s hearts, producing a physical reaction in their bodies, as well as in my own. I fail to see where the fun of this idea would be for the audience or for the artist…..?
The most striking part of this idea is the device that is small enough to fit in and under one seat and powerful enough to mix the entire band with real-time effects.
Not only would a lot of production people be interested in such a device, production schools, like Full Sail and CRAS, might use it as a way to give many students hands-on experience at a single session. The saved mixes could then be graded and discussed.
Another facet of this idea is already in action. Acts have released tracks online for re-mix contests. Radiohead's "Nude" single is one that I remember. I think Todd Rundgren was the first to offer interactive projects. (Check out "No World Order.")
I'll be the first to admit the Pro Tools is my favorite video game. I would love to have the tracks for an album to remix as I wished. That would be a fantastic format for a very small market. Engineers spend more money on music than anyone, just not on records. I have heard of some things circulating in the audio underworld, like the tracks from Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On" available as wav files. If Radiohead released an entire project as a 32-voice DAW session, I would damn sure want it. If I went to a Radiohead concert, however, I would not want to mix it.
Most audiences have no idea what the word "fader" means. As a mass-market idea, this is unwieldy and unappealing. No one is going to listen to all of those mixes, either. However, I never would have thought to put a camera on a phone. I might not be the one to ask.
A consumer-oriented gaming idea could be developed similar to Rock Star. Of course, you don't see girls lining up to get their boobs signed by the soundman. So, again, a niche market. Which is still a market.
Theres no doubt that this can be done and it is in the nature of technology that what can be done will be done.But it is really just photoshop with sound instead of pictures, and we've all seen the range of clever/entertaining to horrific/disgusting that has been produced with that.
It is just as probable that software will be developed that can identify and isolate tracks from music product that has already been mixed so people would then be able to goof around with remixing their favorite artists at home.Sampling gone wild! God help us all.
An interesting idea, that I think would be more applicable to "officianados" than to people who want to hear music and experience it.
My reason, and I write "my" is because there are certain nuances that an artist experiences and conveys to an audience that occur "on-line", namely on-the-instant that the note is played, or sung. Any controls, beyond the basic sound mixing, should be up to the "inventor". Otherwise, it seems to me that the result ends up to be like "decision by committee", at its worst.
Of course, this is my own view. I take an overall position toward any project, whether it be music, or other media, that there is "nothing extra", or correspondingly, "nothing less" in the product than there should be. And the person who is deciding is the artist. Interpretation is a different matter: the audience takes away as many ideas of what they experienced as there are people in the room.
In some respects, the "extended idea" of this technique reminds me of a controversy I saw the other day involving a new music "guitar-heroes-like" game. Kurt Cobain is apparently performing songs in the game that he never performed when he was alive, unlike the other musicians used. Maybe it doesn't matter, but then again, in a larger sense, do people go to hear a musician play, or do they go to hear what they imagine to be THEIR idea of what a musician plays?
From my way of thinking, authenticity requires limits in order for the audience to truly experience the performance. This is why (again, in my opinion), some performances suffer in their delivery because they are too "Technique-Driven".
I really wonder if The Black Crowes would be interested in such a thing. After recording their latest album at Levon Helm's Studios in front of an audience it would not surprise me!
Was it the Beatnik player about a decade ago? Thomas Dolby had a hand in that.
Plus, all those newer Rockband/Guitar Hero games do this too.
Then there's the MADD player...scary in a way 'cuz it actually "creates" music based on mathematical algorithms in a genre context.
It's been around for a while, In fact I'm old enough to remember mixing the sound on my QUAD TAPES, (London Symphony & Quadrophenia were cool that way) but it seems more people prefer having someone else tell 'em what's good, like getting a Caesar salad instead of hittin' the salad bar.
Ugh! Terrible idea. I can't see enough people buying into it to make it even a break-even proposition with the investment in equipment needed.
Anyway, as a musician - I feel the onus of presentation of the music is upon me and not the audience. They are there for the experience. And, unless your audience is filled with talented mix engineers their experience is likely to be very disappointing as they miss key parts of the performance because they had no idea what was coming or how to work the equipment properly.
Look, I don't pay restaurant prices to cook my own meal. Why would I pay to mix a live show.
It's the equivalent of an artist saying "come to my art show" and then handing each attendee a canvas, some brushes and paints and saying "I call this one 'Blinding Moonlight' go ahead and paint it".
It's too gimmicky. No substance. Why bother spending half a lifetime practicing and then months defining and tweaking a sound if it's never heard as you intended. Who's the artist?? The musicians or the audience??
The million dollar idea here is to offer all the rough tracks to anyone who signs up on the mail-list after the show. They get the link to the tracks in email (via a sign-in/account page so access can be controlled) and they can then submit their final mix to the band for consideration as alternate mixes or out-takes on their next CD (with full credit). Maybe even an online repository for those that signed up were all the mixes reside, with a forum for discussing them and keeping the fans engaged.
Dude,
That is not a show, it is a mixing class. It is a great idea for Berklee and and UC Denver but as you named them "the typical audience" enjoys their pot, beer and volume as much as the band ... not a great environment for the little mixing station.
I can see them now, crushed on the floor with the plastic cups and concert trash.
But as a music school concert idea .. a gas. Keep swinging brother!
I'd like to think of it in a wholly experimental way- a sound sculpture that reveals itself to the audience in different ways depending on how they mix it. lets try it in downtown NYC
Cool idea as an option for attendees. However, after seeing U2 Sunday night, I can honestly say, when I go to a show like that, I just want to sing, dance and get lost in the music. You can keep the technical ability-- that would make me feel like I'm at work. LOL! The point of live shows for me is to just escape and be in the music with the artist as they present it--I have no desire to alter the experience with my input or preferences.
Great idea, Derek.
But, wow, I am astounded at the level of resistance from musicians to go for this. Of course, as musicians, we want to present our vision. But we can do this at every other venue out there.
What this offers is the ability is the option for fans that have already seen your shown several times to PARTICIPATE in the creative process. And an experience like that would get many of them to come out and pay good money for it. Sure, it would be a select group of your fans -- not every fan would care. Imagine going to a Bela Fleck concert and being able to solo Victor Wooten's bass line ... or to check out Nels Cline's live guitar tone ... or to have been able to solo John Bonham's kick drum mic! All in realtime, while watching them up close and personal. I know a lot of fans that would pay great money to do this.
An ideal venue for this would be the Experience Music Project here in Seattle.
I think it's a brilliant idea -- sure there all sorts of logistical and practical considerations, and it may not prove to be a viable business model... but the same could have been said (and probably was) for selling CD's of no-name artists on the internet 11 years ago. You never know...
Eric
absolutley NOT!!!!
really bad idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
what about the magic between the artist and
audience? those moments of spontaneity?
glass between the artist and the audience?
who was the idiot that came up with this whole idea anyways? YOU SHOULD BE SHOT!!!!!!!!!!!
did I make myself clear about my opinion on this matter ;-) LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That sounds really cool (although really expensive) for education purposes.
Todd Rundgren did something like this a few years ago,with the "live" recordings but with an audience for the 2nd Wind album. He also offered ,I think on "No World Order" album the capability for interactive mixes.
My own take: Let artists just do their thing.Why does everyone these days have to be "minority" or "majority" of 1, and feels they need to have "input" on something. If someone wants to "remix" a live show on the fly,so each of them gets their own "personal" concert.then they really are missing out on the joyous feeling that IS a great concert.In stead of everyone sharing a great experience,everyone is just off doing their own thing, probably to the detriment of the normal emotional feedback between the band and audience.
Let the would be mixers stay home and play Rock Band. That's fun too.
man ,you tweekheads really got me POd on this one!
sit back ,just enjoy the music,GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It won't be a "concert" anymore. It would be an "experiment". Please don't do it!
I LOVE IT!!!!
It's performance art, people love to be involved, it would be great for the listener, and would add a new kind of performance to a tour.
Up the price? another 20 bucks lets you do the mix at your seat?
The magic is still there in the music, it's not for every tour.
I agree with the writer who discussed the educational value of this tool for musicians, music appreciation students and those studying to become recording engineers.
I can't see it working in my club. People would focus too much on the device and what it could rather than the music, and they would miss out on the experience of listening to live music. Another discussion should be on what is happening to live music? What is its future in our technological age, and is there value in providing venues where people can come to enjoy an evening of live music and experience the talent and creativity of so many great musicians. It seems that we have to work very hard to get people to come out to hear live music. Is the tradition of the small club disappearing?
Derek, you are getting weirder by the day!!!
Gary
I think a lot of people don't realize that this would be a "different" type of performance. Of course it would not be a typical "here's my latest single" type of show. It would be to provide the elements of music and allow others to be a part of the creation.
I think one would have to lose the ego as far as "this is MY music" and instead think of it as "I am a musician providing you with some material to play with tonight."
Obviously, it cannot be compared to "regular" shows... that's the point.
Would I do it? Why the hell not? If the opportunity arose, I would rise!!!
BTW - per your previous post, I am going to see how many CDs I can give away at my next gig and see what happens!
Rhan
I had a similar idea of starting a rehearsal space called "The Fishbowl." Basically, you'd have an octagonal bar; each wall would be glass that looked into a different rehearsal space. In each booth, you'd have a set of speakers and would be able to choose which band you wanted to listen to. No mixing audio or anything. It would just be fun to switch between bands and check out new music without having to be out until 1am.
Hmmmm....not a great idea. Have you ever used an Aviom system before on stage as a musician....truly painful. A headphone mix will never substitute for a live mix, no matter how bad the mix. Try playing guitar onstage using a headphone mix vs monitors, and you will see how bad the comparison, no contest....and then to subject an audience to this....wow, not me!!
I'm sure John Cage, perhaps Karlheinz Stockhausen, would have found this interesting as I do. But this would have to fall into the category of experimental performance because each audience member would be creating a "personal" mix --- the way they think the mix should sound or in some cases just experimenting.
Nothing wrong with that if the performing band agrees but isn't the idea of a band that is performing for an audience to communicate? And with music, communication does not only mean lyric content (message), rhythm, melody, harmony, form and texture, but also dynamics, articulation, blend, balance, tone. Much work and thought goes into the group "sound" of a band not only from the performers but some pretty sharp people in charge of the mix.
What one would find is you would have some serious members of the audience creating a mix that could possibly have airplay potential and you would have a bunch of "goofballs" seeing just how strange, warped, morphed, twisted --- just playing with the mix --- arriving at nothing. Actually there is nothing wrong with this ---" it's all good". (Bob Dylan)
I could see this working as an option for a few members of the audience. For instance, you have several "mixing stations" alongside the stage done as either first-come-first-serve or at a premium above cover. Then, if people want to hear these mixes they can either rent WiFi headphones from the house, or tune in on their own mp3 player, over an FM broadcast - label each mixing station with the frequency they are going out on.
I don't have the sense that the bulk of people attending clubs would be interested in playing on-the-spot mixer, but this idea does have something of a Karaoke feel to it, so maybe it would be best for music not going out live. As other's have said, it seems more like a botique listening experience. Either that, or it becomes an adjunct performance by DJ's / remix artists, in which case, you should also have on-the-spot video artists along the other side of the stage mixing video to the music, also on the fly.
This is an interesting idea that pushes the envelope of what to expect and what can be done in a performance setting. My initial response was, "no - this is not a good idea" until I took it as an opportunity to push expectations till it's very far out and then slowly pull back and figure out what element or elements it has that seem more feasable and palatable.
My main initial negative reactions had to do with the practicalities of this - all the implied hardware involved and who takes responsibility for loss, breakage, etc., and then the thought of having to wrangle hundreds of mixes of a single concert. Woo! Talk about herding kittens! Also, the idea of the band stuck playing in a fishbowl seems to add a degree of unnecessary distance between players and the audience.
However, having said all that, it's only by the pursuit of outrageous ideas that things move forward though, so, thanks for this little thought exercise, Derek!
I don't know about this. Cool but separates the audience from one another in a way that might kill some of the joy of a live concert. I'd try it because I record and would be curious, but I hope it doesn't catch on. Having said that, the trend in music seems to be toward interaction between musician and audience, which is breaking down another wall...
Sarah
I think it is great to re-visit your articles...after the second round of comments roll in...too funny how the tide changes.
One thing that the "haters"...and I love the passion... don't realize here..is HEY GUYS... sometimes stretch your mind....
GREAT ideas can come from CRAZY..and seemingly GREAT ideas...are well....just CRAZY...
lol... something to think on?
Derek ... your idea sounds very much like what happened in the late sixties to me. The studios were quite different then. It was the first time Jacilyn recorded in Nashville and It was wonderful to see
and hear the musicians either single or all together...All the pickers and the singer were on a different mike ..
We could book 3 hours and then your session was over ... We were
lucky (and well prepared). We managed to get 4 songs. Most people were only able to get 3 songs. The trouble they had was most always with the singer. My
partner Milton Wooldridge was the singer and well prepared.. but very
nervous. At one time he had 3 cigarettes lit and was lighting
another one.
The musicians tuned up for at least an hour. Boy.. were we nervous. I though we wouldn't get
one song... But let me tell you those pickers can pick. they can play the song perfect after they hear the song once. It is amazing.
We had the Jordonaires on one song.
We paid extra for them. It cost us
a small fortune but we really had
some great recordings and an awful
lot of expensive experience.
There'd have to be a lot of big money inolved in doing something like this, if there were a attendence price plus the price for the USB stick for all who attended it would make more sense.
But I'm not to keen about this due to the mixes would be no more different then the beat banks that are already included with "like say" the Yamaha 2100 keyboard.
It may work for some bands, but this isn't the artist / audience connection most bands are thriving for "in my opinion."
~Mark Johnson~
There would have to be a way to access someone else's mix or use a splitter if there's someone in the audience who wants to experience this but can't or doesn't want to mix themselves. Or if an engineer decides this would make a great date.
TOO EACH HIZ OWN!!!! LIVE MUSIC ENJOY IT THAT ARTIST MAY NEVER DO ANOTHER SHOW THE SAME WAY. I'D BE NICE TO BUMP INTO SOMEONE AND SAY" HEY DIDN'T I SEE YOU AT..."WHAT A GREAT ICE BREAKER!!!
Why not. There are streets full of women in glass boxes displaying their wares. Why not the same with musicians. You can look but it will costs you to touch. If you have enough bread you can get a private showing. Plus, it is a lot safer for the girls behind the glass.
I blame Radiohead for starting this "mix it yourself" idea. Sure, it would be cool to get a different perspective on your music from someone else, but isn't that what a producer is supposed to do?
Like everything else, this is another example of making things disposable. The band worked very hard to put this together, they practiced and refined each part until it comes together as a strong presence all its own. They take this sound into the studio, where its refined further and enhanced to sound the best it possibly can. Later, they take this sound out on the road to perform in front of people. The band is a whole concept, not a bunch of puzzle pieces to be taken apart and screwed around with!
That being said, if a band wants to have a new perspective on their music and/or mixes, why not get someone who doesn't produce things the way the band normally does (think of REM working with that hip-hop producer for "Accellerator" for example"). You'll gain a new perspective if you use someone outside of your own genre and perhaps create something different.
This idea of moving knobs around only cheapens what musicians and artists are trying to do, in my opinion, anyway.
totally random... comment.
I'm having my first baby...
and it looks like today.
we are just in the early phases of
contractions and all that good stuff.
and I took a break to read email.
check out this blog...
and Derick, cool ideas.
I would love to be a part of that
project.
Probably I won't be jumping to email Peter right away, but maybe after I settle into a routine with the new baby.
Those interactive show ideas are great.
it's what is needed to help evolve the art form.
yes the artists vision is important
(as I've read in some people's comments)
but there could be a mix from the band.
AND the option for remixing.
gotta run.
Mono
I would have given quite a lot to sit in on that conversation with you and Peter! I cannot imagine what other interesting ideas must have come up...
What I am finding most fascinating about many comments is how many musicians believe their live mix is an integral part of their music and their live presentation. Again, I wonder if this is a genre distinction. As a touring rock band, we are at the mercy of the house PA and sound engineer. Our sound almost never comes out the way we'd really like it to -- we have a very unusual and daunting setup -- so we just hope for the best and have fun. I guess many people here have their own FOH guy and PA to ensure everything sounds just right, so maybe relinquishing that would be unappealing. If I could achieve the perfect live mix every night, I might not want to give it up, either! But how many times have you heard people complain, "I couldn't hear the vocals?!" geez, one night of playing behind glass would be worth it to know everyone heard the mix they wanted!
Derek, I have nothing to add on the subject, as others have so eloquently done, but what a fantastic exchange of ideas! Thanks for setting up these "forums". I'm anxious to see the comments of folks who try the "give away your cds" thing. I'm gonna try it. Thanks again.
Having read through a handful of the comments, I think that whilst it does take away the 'craft' of the sound engineer, it would be an interesting experiment but only that, an experiment.
Too many people (some sound engineers included) think they can do it when in fact they really can't and would probably hate their own mix in time.
However, giving limited control of a simplified version of a mix, rather like stems that remixers are given by artists certainly would have some merit.
In fact it's something we've been working on doing online for a while. One day it may see the light of day.
Call me a caveman but I miss the good old days where it was enough to go to a club and listen to an act. No half a dozen big ass telelvisions, no pool tables, dart boards and poker machines and now these stupid ass bean bag toss games that go clunk clunk clunk as you sing. And now people are so ADD we have to offer them the job of mixing the show? Gonna have to think about this one.
Reminds me of a Jethro Tull concert I went to where they told the audience to shut up and sit down during the entire performance or they would walk off stage.
Wow.....mixing studio karaoke
I would love to be a part of that. Whether it was on the playing end or the mixing end I think it would be a very beneficial and priceless learning experience. Great idea.
I find the idea totally horrible, can't say it in any gentler way.
I can do a pretty good mix myself, but I would never ever dream of daring to touch someone elses mix unless I was hired to do so. When going to a concert one of the things I'm always curious about is how the sound will be. It's a big part of the performance and will greatly affect my experience. To think that I'd be given a gizmo and headphones to toy with, and stand there along with all the others paying more attention to the buttons than to the band itself seems like a nightmare to me. Last but not least: does the general public need/want this? I personally don't know any concert goers who ever uttered the wish to handle the mix themselves, nor would they be able to. Leave that to the specialists, and let the audience do what they do best (and what we musicians can only envy): enjoy the music free of worries!
This reminds me a little bit of a film I watched yesterday called Us Now (about using the internet as a vehicle for making democratic decisions). It's a little bit different because in your example each person is in control of their own mix, but there are similar themes in this idea and the film:
http://watch.usnowfilm.com/
No offense, but you might as well hand your audience members a knife and tell them to split atoms.
That sounds like a terrible idea. By and large, sound engineers at even moderately respectable venues know what they're doing far better than some jackass with an iPod. Why not also let the audience pick what music they're listening to while the performers are in iso booths, too?
heehee, that's a funny idea. seems like only a folkie would actually enjoy letting un-processed vox tracks get thru to a listener so they could process...but a folkie may not really appreciate the effected nature - or maybe it's brilliant - maybe you could give the artist the right to have a tiny touch of verb and eq on the vox just to have a safety barrier?
A very clever and innovative idea! Hope to hear more about it!
Steve Bruce... the BruceMeister
Yeah..this idea doesn't grip me. I agree with the folks saying that's all we need, another opportunity for people to be together in a social environment and completely ignoring each other. And the band. So you'd lose that electric energy that builds between band and audience, likely making the performance lackluster. Also as an audience member I would prefer to lose myself in the music - I am an audio person by day it'd make me feel like I was at work! More power to those who want to do it, but there are just too many other cool ideas to try for me to invest any time in this one.
One of the worst Ideas ever. As for "Some aspiring engineers and remixers would come to show off their creative mixing skills, in hopes of impressing other music fans or even the artist." Why would they? An idea like this removes the need for an engineer. I am an engineer.
How about we deliver a load of pre cut lumber, some plumbing, and some electrical gear to your empty lot - and let you build your own house? Good luck with that.
Brilliant! (in British accent)
I gotta say something about the comments, though. All these remarks about what the idea doesn't do! Geez, like there isn't enough music in the world being performed in the usual way. Like this would become a fad, and take the music world by storm and ruin it! Geez!
This would be so cool. The experimentation part. I wouldn't want the job of sifting through all the mixes, but someone would. The number of alternative mixes would excite, not overwhelm the right people.
If it were a band I was really into, I'd totally go and do it. People would need practice mixing, though. You wouldn't want to get too experimental on the fly if you were looking to keep the result for listening. But as a learning experience, for fun, as a contribution to your own mixing experience, and the band's, ...pretty cool.
I don't think a venue could support itself doing only this kind of show, though. Maybe attach it it to a recording studio or regular venue.
Not a good idea. The reason people go to see bands is to feel the music in its original state. The crowd surfing, beach balls being hit around, water being sprayed, the stage dive not mixing. Takes away from the essence of performing.
Why not take it another level Derek? In my estimation based upon what you've explained about your concept it wouldn't be necessary for the entire audience to be in a single concert hall at all. You could virtually "attend" this concert performance by streaming the audio channels. You'd just need an application on your pc that processes them. It could also run plug-ins and such.
Pretty forward thinking.
Derek I think you have way to much time on your hands
Great idea ! I ve tried some gigs in 2005 with (less complex & less $ idea ) an idea of multidiffusion principle. Sounds from the stage go to usual 2 speakers on each side of the stage + 6 more speakers all around a theatre.
2 sound mixers ,one for normal stereo mix & the other with Lemur feeding the 6 speakers. Music ( I call it Earth Music ) was mainly rythmical in front & other stuff all around ( like violin, music from Zuni flute player & healing songs from Verdell Primeaux & Johnny Mike, guitar, effects ...)
Each person of the audience ( no chairs ) was walking in the theatre choosin his own mix ( more or less rythm, space effects ... ).
...That's some crazy modern imagination you guys have. I wonder if it's even do-able considering all the equipment that needs to be bought, not to mention, your audience needs to know what the heck they're doing- mixing, editing- wise.
I'm all for the idea, although I think it'll be a struggle executing it.
Why do you need a venue for this?
The band being behind glass - that's like watching a TV. Plus you don't get to feel the music move the air around you.
Everyone with headphones on - that's like being in a room by yourself with the added ambience of other people paying attention to their mix.
There's already a device that could theoretically do this. A smartphone. Namely an iPhone, or and iPod Touch, or a Palm Pre, or a Google Android phone. Some already have mixing software you can get.
There's already a place people can do this: Their living room. Why leave the house? Some band can go sit in a studio and stream such a thing to the world. Paying a venue to do this, while possible, doesn't seem logical since a majority of the interaction between people is removed in this situation.
I go out to interact with people and experience the vibe, not isolate myself.
Is there a way to put the interaction between people back in?
Don't get me wrong I love playing with in-ear monitors, but I can still interact with the audience and feel the air without blowing my ears out. That doesn't require isolating the band from the audience with a glass cage.
Cool idea, but if I could go to a 'large' show and just make people shutup that would be nice enough. You'd think we were at a frat party sometimes....milling about, talking on cell phones, everyting but watching the damn concert!!. Its irritating!
Since you're missing the ambiance of vocal interaction with the audience, why not just do it online? You'd have to provide a downloadable multitrack mixer but, that has to be more affordable than a computer for each audience member.
Sounds like....the DMB underground tape culture meets Epcot Center....and the technology exists to pull it off. Good news is that both of those things apart from each other were wildly successful.
I could see three different scenarios:
1. the band has a device that splits the channels from the board and then sends those multiple signals to a multi-docking station (ipod or iphone seems like it'd be the right size/type device), or a website, or both. Interested fans could pay (or I recommend NOT pay like dmb) to get access to the raw tracks, and the band could have a site dedicated to fans posting their "mixtapes" of the show. Not exactly real-time (maybe the web feed could be), but brilliant in fanbase development. I have 2 bands that currently provide stereo mixes off the FOH board and have a "docking station" for up to 48 people to plug up their 1/8" audio-input device and record. Some of their fans are addicted to it! I would imagine the ability to mix individual channels would be even more attractive, but probably to a smaller niche of the current stereo-feed junkies.
2. the venue dedicates a few "box seats" that are essentially soundproof control rooms (you could even offer different levels of rooms depending on how they were outfitted). These rooms have channel splits from the live board, and brings them into recording DAW's. It would be important that a view of a stage and the rest of the audience was possible.
Some of the nicer venues these days offer live recordings in this manner....but they don't usually let fans in those recording rooms, and probably for good reason.
3. a melding of the 2...a supper-club type of venue that has the handheld mixing devices and noise-cancelling headphones tethered to the table. the added element of cool here would be the ability for everyone at a table to be able to work on a mix together. i adapt that idea from this guy at NACA last year who had an 8-sided midi workstation where students could each work on a different part of a song (bass line, drum line, etc).
Some key things to think about no matter which method was chosen.
a. this will appeal to fans, but probably only a smaller percentage of fans. decide if your music draws a enough fans from the niche of people that would be in to such a concept. I bet you it would be HUGE in the electronica realm, and a FLOP with country music.
b. The stage would need to be large enough to get separation, WITHOUT putting each player in an Isobox. As any player can attest, part of the magic that happens on a stage is that it HAPPENS ON A STAGE, with band member simultaneously interacting and collaborating. This is why the LIVE SHOW won't go away...it's magic!
c. your FOH engineer better be dang good. Mic placement will be critical (leaning more towards studio than traditional live).
d. finding ways to achieve this as economically as possible would be critical. Each purchase would have to be weighed for it's true value added.
meager thoughts from a meager mind...
When Todd R. did this ........ and heres the dealibob....the tracks were already recorded... the magic between musicians had happened. THEN the mix was invited.
Go Derek go!!!!
while this idea sounds cool in a futuristic techie way, it ignores the fact that most people WANT to experience the unexplainable chemistry and magic that can occur in a live concert. After spending 8-12 hours a day attached to computers in one form or another, people see a concert as a refuge, a way to release, a chance to be primal and connect with their inner child. In the end, this scenario takes eliminates most of the raw and visceral facets of live music.
WHEN TODD R DID THIS THE TRACKS WERE ALREADY RECORDED...
THEN THE MIX WAS INVITED.....THATs THE DEALIE-BOB. YOU GO DEREK!!!
This idea sounds more like a candidate to go along with some of those computer games, but not live IMHO. Music is an art form meant to convey a message or story by the writer to the listener. I'm not and never will be an advacate for demanteling the work that goes into creating or performing real music. What benifit is this to the writer and many musicians that work very hard at their craft. Most musicians, those that take their music seriously, know it is not a game, it's fun and rewarding, but not a game like this idea.
I'm kind of one of those artists who doesn't necessarily believe in an "original" idea. This one somehow reminds me t of Borges' story, "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote," where Borges predicts how reader interpretation in a post-modern world will be central to the creative process. (It's a funny story, in which the main character really entrenches himself into Cervantes' work and eventually re- writes it word for word in the original Spanish.) My point is, we ALL contribute something to the creative process of one another, even if you're living under a rock. I think the more you can put a spin on an idea, the better. That's how cameras ended up on phones. We need as much art and expression in this world as we can get. Creativity and compassion are what can save us and make us grow. As a world. I wouldn't shun this idea at all. I think it would be an interesting experiment, at the least. I'd still hold my lighter up during my own fabulous moments if I could shell out enough to go to something like this. I don't see this taking over the way people experience all performances in the future.
As a musician, I would love to see what happened if my band was the one behind the plate glass. My ideas are not as important as the way the audience is affected by them. When we look at visual art, we are, in essence, re-mixing the paint and strokes as we view it. I have been amazed by what people tell me they see in my paintings that I didn't mean to put there. I don't see this as such as stretch.
And wouldn't it be neat, if like Pierre Menard, someone in the audience mixed it exactly as it was written?
Possible.
The average concert-goer would turn all the faders to max on every channel, assuming they were not too lazy to do anything with it at all.
I will not suck up to you. I think this is the stupidest idea I've ever heard.
Sounds like a nightmare to me. These people are not engineers and I would not want to hear my music mixed by some knuckle head. I guess some people in the audience would enjoy it but after you spend hours and hours rehearsing the band, why would you leave the most important part to just anyone. On the other hand I've heard worse ideas so who am I to say. Just my opinion.
Actually, I would like this idea better modified somewhat as a TV game show.
nahhhh,
part of what i put out is the mix. if they want their own mix, they can buy their own gear, from strings to mics, to drumsticks to mixing console. then they will be called musicians instead of audience.
There was a concert/studio venue here in Brunswick, Maine, that did a deal where your ticket got you a seat at the concert (cabaret style), a wine and cheese reception to meet the artist after the concert, and a CD of the performance (duplicated during the wine and cheese bit).
It didn't have the total audience input of individual mixes but it DID have maximum social aspects of a performance - audience interaction, live performance vibe, etc, and they only made CDs for that audience, so it was limited edition.
It ran for a few years here. In a bigger market I think it could do well.
Mixing something in real-time is not exactly something you just pick up from the get-go, or at least I don't think so after doing it for 10 years.
Perhaps an interesting variation would be the bands putting out their live raw tracks for post-concert mixing by fans.
Some venues now can do live multi-track recording and provide the raw files.
So enjoy the default mix in real-time and go do a mash-up later
PS If the engineer doesn't have decent enough mic placement/separation for reasonable raw tracks, they probably don't have good placement/separation for a good live mix either... Think about it. If bringing up the bass guitar also always brings up the lead guitar, you're in trouble behind the board.
Not that I haven't heard some pretty bad live mixes, mind you.
too much technology!!! killing technology!!! too much technology!!! too much technology!!!! killing technology!!!
An interesting idea for students looking to hear what to play or not to play in different situations BUT for a concert? I don't think so. Too much of the public has no idea what to listen for in a performance, that's why those that seriously study this, mix the sound for the listener.This idea is more suitable for video gamers.
This isn't a new idea, nor are isolation booths required.
Hand out Shure wireless IEM (in ear monitor systems) to the audience, send them "stems" which are submixes, let them mix to taste using the belt pack. Isolation problem non-existent due to use of the in ear buds.
Good luck getting all your belt packs back. ;)
Terry
It seems like by the time an average concert goer figures out what button to press and what knob to turn, a live performance would be over. I think in order to even come close to mixing a live band, you need to know what you're doing... Mixing... Not for the light hearted...
Dennis
I love the majority of your posts --- but I think this is a clunker
Hi there. Dreadful idea but I could see it's use at say a science center or museum. Taking away the actual interaction between artist and fan as artist and fan and changing it to artist in a box and fan wanna be mixer is sad even think about. A silent concert. Barf.
Why not save yourself a million dollars and just sell the stems for remixing at the end of the show.
It's so much less creepy.
I've been pissed off enough over the years by paying top dollar for a live show, then having to sit through an idiot soundman who seems more interested in getting the babe's attention standing outside the sound booth than the performer's on stange being heard well... So, I am enrolled in the idea
I don't think it's a good idea. It has the ambience of "too many cooks spoiling the soup". The artist, or band should be more than capable of deciding what sound they want from their own study and experience. If not, he/she needs to do more listening of their own. I sort of see the development of an artist as a scared, private thing, which when developed, can be a "gift" to the listeners.
Derek, cool idea as a theoretical construct. I still believe the further you remove the individual creative ethos the less inspired the music becomes. Creation is a loaner. Production is a team effort. Good post.
It's a pregnant idea for SOME types of music, but not for the genres I compose in (a fusion of singer-songwriter pop/jazz/folk /country romance and symphonic and cinematic techiques). But for trance, electronica, and such, it sounds interesting, and adding a communal spirit to some of these musics might not subtract from their substance. I can hear various treatments of, say, Eno's ambient series, especially Vols 1, 2 and 4 treated in this manner, maybe. I don't know if Eno would like it, though.
This reminds me of an idea I had (which will never see the light of day...)
The venue is surrounded with Iso booths around the 3 walls, each with space for a musician and a mic or miced amp. At the front of the room, iso booths for a drummer and a bass player (house musicians who can be counted on to not stink the place up.) Musicians sign up for the jam, get a turn in a booth, where they can hear the drum and bass and other instruments, and can create a headphone mix to suit themselves.
An engineer is monitoring it all and mixing the jam into the room for the audience. The engineer(s) can bring in only what they want--if someone is not hitting it, they can exclude that booth. When they hear something that's happening they can bring it in on top. Perhaps when they want to give a solo to someone, they can light up that booth and then the player knows they are in the spotlight--time to shine!
Meanwhile, the audience are at candle-lit tables, enjoying drinks and the competent mix. Perhaps a few celebrity engineers or musicians to make it special.
Like Derrick's idea, too expensive to ever do--but if someone out there sees this and decides to try it, please invite me to play!
Sounds like a good idea if you were doing some kind of promotional contest to raise money for a good cause; other than that I don't see any point in it.
I have an even better idea. Venues where when people stare at their cell phones, totally ignore you as you perform your ass off for them, and scream and shout at the ballgame on one of the bars gazillion tvs sets in the bar, then the floor opens up and they are all fed to hungry sharks.
There are about 170 comments above that mostly say its not a good idea. I think a variation of this is a great idea. The issue is that most people who like to mix music are already doing that. The rest of people really haveno desire to do so.
So I think the perfect solution is to combine this with your idea from yesterday. Provide DVDs of the individual tracks to people after the show (as quickly as you can burn them, or at next show, or as download). Then the engineer types would have their fun and the rest of people can enjoy a normal show. I have recorded a lot of my band's (HOTEL45) live shows and can attest that individual tracks from a live stage are fine for mixing and you don't really need glass booths around everyone.
I wouldn't want to be the artist playing, nor would I be interested in attending as an audience member. I want my music to sound like I want it to, and I want to hear the artist as they intend. You want a few dozen (Hundred? Thousand?) crappy or 'out there' mixes of your band floating around? Only way I'd do it is if I got all the mixes, and got to choose which to give back to the mixers--if any.
Great concept, Derek.
Nice concept, but it's not for me.
It might be a nice idea for someone to do, but not for me. I like playing to an audience.
However, whilst I do enjoy the silent discotheques where every dancer has their own personal stereos, ipods or whatever, I think that giving an audience the chance to mix means that they will spend the entire gig fiddling with their ipods and not looking at the band. So why would they pay to go and see the band? They can stay at home and fiddle with the eq on their stereo or itunes...with music that has been 'properly' mixed...and I'm not sure, but I think that being on stage playing to an audience of people not watching...might be a bit offputting - all that stage craft and working the audience will be a little odd if they're all looking down...and if we go down that route, we could end up going to a cinema where every seat has a computer linked to multiple angles of the film, and the audience edit it...um. No, thanks. Aren't these things the job of the engineer, the editor? I know that NIN gave a garageband release of one of their tunes for their audience to remix, and THAT is a great idea...but, for live stuff, I want to pay for entertainment, not work. And I want to see it live.
Great concept, Derek, but to put together, it shall have taken many years. However, the idea's still interesting.
bless you
i notice with interest that unlike his other posts derek has yet to respond to a single comment. i would certainly like to know dereks personal views concerning this idea. in particular as to how it would relate to a musician as opposed to a performance artist.
Well if u really really want the audience to be involved, here is their opportunity!!!
I would like to do this. Who would I contact?
This sounds like the death of the real music industry its death to cd baby cause no more real indi artist will sell their music
wow.
so complete amatuers could mix my songs and then take their copy of my music and play it for their friends and put it on the internet and represent it as my music?
yeah. sign me up.
[rant] I find this idea to be really selfish, actually. First, you completely disregard the artistry of the sound mixer. Now, yes, many sound mixers are just Jim-Bob from down the street, but there are also many fine sound engineers who are true artists in their own right. A sound mix can make or break a show.
Now, of course, you're only talking about one venue, right? But what if something like this caught on? We already have dumbed down the artistry of video. Every guy and their mom now shoots and edits video and puts it out there like they're the next big thing. And unfortunately, sometimes they ARE the next big thing. Since garageband was introduced, I've noticed more and more amateur "sound mixers," who couldn't do a mix to save their life, but act like they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. Something like this would only encourage that mentality. It's really one of the reasons why I'm glad that the best recording/sound equipment is still well out of the price-range of the average guy. It does, unfortunately, keep out people who don't have enough financial backing, but really ARE talented, but it has to be that way to keep out the masses.
Again, I know that we're talking about a single venue, but I don't like the idea of encouraging the masses. The experience should be artists (musicians, sound people) and the audience. You don't go to see someone to create your own vision, you go to see someone else's vision.
Now, on the other hand, if you wanted to do something like this as a conceptual art exhibit at a place like MIT, I'd be all for that. I'm not entirely turned off to this idea in general, just the idea of making this a regular venue. [/rant]
Possible other place-ideas this could work in addition to the NY, London, LA ideas: Berklee in Boston, EMP in Seattle or Shanghai World Expo. Sounds like fun. I know lots of people who would buy tickets for it just for the experience if it was not out of the ballpark expensive-wise.
As a musician I am OK with that. As a spectator I am really not interested in going to a venue and listen with headphone to a band I won't feel plus having to do the mix. For that I can stay at home and play with the sound system equaliser. Actually, as a spectator I always hated the participative events.
This is not a bad idea, just no interest for me.
Thanks always for that great blog.
Jimmy
I love that "out-the-box" feel!
no thanks! i can see it now! the Who is performing..and some old fart comes in and sits down ..
d'guitar is too loud.. let me tweak that down to next to nothing
oh.. the drums are wy too loud let me tweak that down too . oh the bass is to boomy. let me EQ that too next to nothing.. oh that lead singer needs a nose job... let's sand his beak down next to nothing !! now that there is a good blend .. just like Lawrence Welk bye diggity now thats nice and soft . don't want to hurt my hemmies maybe they'll put my mis on the mains?? i'll show em all
now the who sounds like a hik cup in a wet flour bag .. great idea kiddies .. no thanks folks no control over the artists performing from the audience
leave that to the band ..
al though it might have worked as an over all volume in seedy clubs
when band played too loud for the entire room .. they should be behing thick glass..with one giant volume control for the mafia club owner to tweak ! actually i thought of that back in 1972
really .. so there is some good in this idea . but only for over all volume .. not the sepreate instument mix
thanks
Upper Management
the DbD, music Scientist
It'll be tough keeping the clear panels clean. The light design would need to be careful not to create glares, blinding reflections for the audience and try to make sure the design allows you to be able to see through the glass (when you intend for that to happen.)
Of course you wouldn't need to isolate digital musicians with in-ears.
Good luck persuading the musicians who usually have the benefit of the mix and room acoustics to flatter their sound and hide mistakes. You can't play perfectly at a live show with a million distractions and things that can go wrong.
If you don't have a PA you at least need a low pass filter for subs, so you can still 'feel' the music, otherwise it might be empty feeling. Something like a bass shaker effect.
How would the musicians interact with each other and the audience? I don't really see myself wanting to be in the audience or on the stage. How many bored girlfriends can you fit in one venue?
I *want* to have a mixer focus the sound. Highlight the right musician at key moments. I really don't think you can do a mix live if you're not familiar with the material. It takes practice. The audience's personal mixes aren't likely to be something worth listening to, except for the novelty of it for the first 5 minutes.
Musicians and engineers spend years and lots of money to get the sound that works... in the mix. Anyone who has heard an isolated snare mic or kick, or overheads knows that they don't sound so great by themselves. They are treated to sound right 'in the mix'.
Tons of artists already make their tracks available online for remix contests.
It takes many years and skill sets to become a good mixer. Mix engineers do ear-training that musicians never even do.
The people in the audience would have to tune out the the people around them to listen closely to what they're doing. Sounds more like a museum exhibit than a good time with friends. If you want to get close and personal to the musicians bring binoculars and listen to the mix that they intended for you.
I don't think there's any kind of music that would make a venue like this sustainable. Would you want to go to the movies and miss important dialog or a funny sound effect because you were busy soloing a track that doesn't have any information for another 20 minutes?
This idea would work best with music that is well-known by the mixer/audience member since much more than the mix is intended in any composition, though the mix tends to be the conduit connecting the audience to the artist's intentions. In the real world, musicians don't often have complete control over the mix in a live setting, but rather trust in the skills of the hired 'other member' of the band...the mixing engineer. Entrusting that position to someone the musician/composer doesn't know turns that aspect of the whole presentation into something of a sideshow act and the overall performance into nothing shy of a crap shoot. I think that this idea would work best in a video arcade where you not only get to mix your favorite pieces, but get to score points against other mixers. Imagine all the bells and buzzers! Woo Hoo!
In James backyard was 2003 in Montreal of all places and sold out with the audience wearing headphones. The concert in Cape town was "dreamy" according to the critic and he says it's perfect when the music is very detailed and...I forget the rest but the group also performs in unusual places like forests and farms. Sounds like it sells.
I love your posts Derek, always worth a read, but to this idea, I have to say, NO, NO, NO!!!
It reminds me of Roger Waters describing Pink Floyd concerts before he wrote The Wall - he felt completely isolated from the audience.
The thing is, the best concerts are all about communication, shared experiences, a bond established between the performer and the audience.
This idea just seems to get in the way of all that, so I'm sorry but I beg to differ on this one.
Thanks all the same Derek, as I say, I am continuously inspired by your work.
The word experiment keeps coming up again and again in alot of the comments. Its not going to replace what you get from a live show. I guess someone somewhere will actually try this. And than what? It'll be an interesting experiment. Meanwhile, I'll be at the bar jumping up and down to a rockin' band, and howling!!! AHwhoo! Whoo! Whoo!
I read Vince's comment way up top and how it said that people wouldn't interact... It's possible. But it's also possible that people can interact more as they'd be sharing and comparing mixes.
I think this is great. Examples are always given with "small" bands of 3-4 instruments... But imagine this with a 9 piece band, horns, and all!
I love the idea... I want to know when it opens up and when I can book a show there. This would be so fun to do once in a while. Especially when you want to experiment with new music!
~Marco
who mixes for the band?
Hi Derek,
Thanks bro you're on one as they say tho nice the way you do it...
This one is simple I would want to dance if I was so into the music I was suppose to be listening mixing so unless there was enough room in the box to jumpabout (like Lee Perry the Upsetter)also young Scientist late 70's King Tubbys prodigy) I would'nt really enjoy this type of state of the arts affair sessions as some people get hypo-phobic in lifts and places of such solitary confinements...
A friend from East Coast UK told me that he once went to a headphone dubwise session in Glastenbury of all places as he came near to the big tent/marquee that housed this strange dub party he heard a kinda electro buzzing that sounded like something outta space I think (neva being)...
He said drawnbacks for that experience was people shouting at each other all night trying to lip read what was been said tho they were all hearing the same tunes from wired buzz box doing the zombie jump...
And a next point is your ears give you musical orgasms as total fidelity of exhightations when we're in the hall all soaking up this wonderful atmosphere with the human chemistry sweating grooving giving us so much pleasure as I swing and dance I am getting really high intense mixes believe bro that excells the sound labs experimental hook ups "all by myself don't want to be"...
So bro from seeing you as our wondering USA/global Radio star (i'm into radio) you have now change my perception into a spaceman pursuit as beam me up a remixer, carry oakie is bad enough don't you think to have us musicians in these pressure chambers is a bit near artistic suppression or something...
Hey bro keep the creative balance free range and real life like slow into the verb or something this is too near that may-tricks or was it soundbite hits I am not feeling this myself a pro-tools wired-pod set up and no relationship amongs the music creative sources and receptors at large...
Derek what is the weather like in New York bro it was a very nice September Tuesday late summer day over here UK wise kinda hope the state is warmish if not bro turn up the burners man and put some heat on the Platters many have work very hard and done well lighting the fuses that cuts the grooves from original deep south blues masters and the Duke of Ellington Fats Domino to Motowns Jackson Five with Stevie Wonder the man with the music plan to Def Jam...
To seperate the audiences from each other would be a big mistake where would the youths mesh-pit argy-bargy skanking out mash-up stylee fists and feets flying let off steam it would be a complete missing of the point or heat of the moments...
Our ears to heart are the biggest valves generaters vibraters you have got via bio-preamps while our lungs keep them cool max for circlation so we have all the bio pro-tools in our bodily systems...
We can even make up for the poor PA mixes by trying to sit or stand at points in venues where the sound isn't too bad(as how the hall sound) we're forgeting every venue has a different acoustics a next wonderful part of the atmospherics that takes great calibration to ground the overall sound to the suited levels for each genres that is in the house on any particular event...
So bro Derek can you see what you would be missing hey man get some precussion going shake something about even when the headphone lead hits the microphone stand there is a sensitive friction so we got to feel it in getting some vibes happening...
Really love your twist n turn you know why you're doing it so bless up for your ever flowing brain storms that's like big up the music Live and Direct...
Words of Jah Message
Echo's in the Valley
Now the people are hearing his name
Words of Jah Message
Echo's in the city
Israel come rally right now...
(Track off Dread Music Affairs-Innalovejah my 3rd vocal album-MWMUSCD002)...
And so many people would be letting off copies of cds they mixed in these type sessions no one would buy the bands original cds cause it's not the bootleg copies where does us artist coin a wage bro it's hard enough isn't it? really I know you're thinking this way because of all the amazing things pro-tools can do tho if you really like a full up gig/show nothing compares one-a-way...
Peace love meditations 4 more creative vibrations positive all for one one for all Rastafari...
Wayne@Turbosonics-2009
THIS ALREADY HAPPENS at every live performance! The technology used is human perception. Do you all really think that everyone focuses their eyes and ears on the same the thing? As individuals we all come away with a different interpretation of the sights and sounds that surround us. We attend these events with our own unique set of preferences, expectations and perceptual limitations. We each have specific emotional triggers that cause us to instensify aspects of our internal mix as well as ignore other aspects of our experience.
As a member of an audience, I like to feel the soundwaves, unless they're so intense that my clothes and hair are blowing in a breeze. But it would be nice to have some headphones in addition to the PA sound. Many times the bloody bass has been too loud at a show, or the drums, or I couldn't hear the guitarist. Bad mixes, too much noise in big halls. I'd love the idea of having a receiver/mixer with access to raw data from the board. But don't see that happening soon. Would need capital and new equipment for that to happen. And most people don't know much about mixing. I don't think you'd need the isolation booth if you were only worried about damping stage sound, since people would be doing their own mixes through headphones. Sounds like my idea for the riding lawnmower hovercraft with the laser blade--neat idea, maybe not practical.
might be cool for some people, but, for me, ugh!
Wow, you come up with some amazing ideas and always get great feedback.
It would take a brave band to allow an audience to mix individual recordings of a set of music. Imagine the funky versions of each song that would be in circulation. Even if the band was very good, the personalized amateur mixes could make them sound extremely bad.
Do bands really want to take that kind of risk? I'm actually posing this question to the residents of Siverspace. Anyone?
Rock on... -sp
An interesting idea...and would work great as a performance art piece, actually...
but I do get bored of this...it seems like ALL new media ideas are interactive. Doesn't anybody just enjoy appreciating art/music/films anymore, or is that just old school and 20th century?
When I go to see Michelangelo's David, I don't particularly want to draw on it.
When I go to see Jeff Beck play guitar, I don't want to boost the bass to "see what happens".
Even when I go to a local art gallery to see what new artists are doing, I don't need to scribble on their paintings.
Yet I am besieged with requests from the audience to sing - in fact, one old woman wanted to get up and play her kazoo LOL that was weird enough that I almost let her...but I had a good crowd into what I was doing and didn't want to kill the vibe...and sometimes when I have let people up there the crowd clears out and I am left playing to an empty room because listening to other people do karaoke who are not your friends and are not singers is EXCRUCIATING (my opinion and others' opinions as well)...
When I was in school, we took Art Appreciation and Music Appreciation. This involved listening and seeing, and yes sometimes drawing and making music. But also appreciating things AS IS without having to put one's grubby little mitts on them.
I'm sorry, but the Beatles aren't better because you can play them like a videogame. I might have enjoyed that when I was 10, I might even enjoy that now for an afternoon...but there is something to be said for just sitting there and digging the intricacies of the art. If the Rock Band game brings the Beatles onto a kid's iPod, then that's a good thing. If all artists then can develop their own Rock Band games, well then it's just another vehicle to lead people to the music...
it's not the medium of transmission...it's the arrogance that gets me...
I think more schools need Art and Music Appreciation. We need to relearn to respect people who take their crafts seriously. We need to study the people who did it before us, even if we throw it all out and start over. I think we lose a lot as humans when we have the arrogance to think that we can always do it better or should always be able to control the world with a LEFT-LEFT-RIGHT-UP-UP-B-A-START.
That's fantastic. It's a form of dynamic entertainment; few artists have made live concerts with unforgettable dazzling special effects.
I can only think of Pink Floyd or Jean-Michel Jarre, and again they made efficient use of the latest technology available for arts, and the audience was passive. I'm sure Rock bands such as U2 can cater to sober tech savvy crowds.
I remember mentioning to someone how a global concert could be live when the first xserve came out, and have it set up as banks of modules (there were no iphone/ipod-touch then.)
For the little I know about professional venue set up, those are few ideas I thought to consider for such a project. Concert-goers already know how to show their presence by holding their cell-phones up, as it was done with lighters.
With all the software programs out there, it should not be that daunting anymore. It even looks like a future mobile version of Logic's MainStage would do the trick...
Today's technology breakthrough in personal device is really the touchscreen interface, allowing fingers to draw patterns and control output any computer can translate into sound wirelessly.
There's no need to be precise, or focus on a specific knob since software will fit the data into gain or tempo-manageable (midi) streams. A venue master protocol should prevent any one to shut it down by mistake.
Smart-phones can help add voice effects via their mics and play wind instruments as well, while multiple dj's and sound engineers, scattered in the crowd monitor the over all sound.
All what's left is a stadium grade video camera to capture and broadcast images of the audience in fair share rotations as mosaics of individual shots.
Now the tool list is complete, or is it?
Ready-Point-Stream!
How much is thinking?
How much is noise?
How much is fun?
How much is poise?
Is there anything else out there?
Other than Destiny?
wow Sabastian
that's heavy....now put the pipe down .... well actually it does make sense !! i like it !!
thinking is the only way to travel
this doesn't really interest me.
Yea like all things there is the positive and negative. Just imagine how many crap versions would leave that night if the listeners were able to take home their mix... Maybe not let it be taken home and it would be cool. However like you say the band could listen to the mixes and select some good ideas... Then you would find the listener mixer would not be recognized if just small exerts were used by the band... Great idea and yea great possibilities...
Hi Derek! nice idea
! The same idea I have for a long time ago for audio CDs. you can buy the music, and you can on a little mixer self created your own sound.
My english is to bad to say all my ideas. One of this is a dream for cinema. the atmosphäre looks inside like a spaceship and you are one of the passengers. the spaceship must make an emergency and landing on a strange planet. And here beginns the real story in a wondering world of new sounds. a special sound system with six channels that you can control left right up and down
one of the sounds "standing" in the room and you must go to this place to hear that. Or up is a different music/noise like down ......
Honestly, I sometimes think that the vast amount of technological options available are playing havoc with people's thinking.
Yes, this could probably be done. The question is: whatever for?
Possibly, it could improve the general audibility of the show (eliminating the problems inherent in venue acoustics) and it just might offer a different perspective to the audience member who was actually slick enough to be able to create a different personalised mix. However, this would come at the price of everything that, to me, constitutes the live music experience.
Most of my complaints were already lodged by others, so let me just restrict myself to one: music isn't about technology, it is about people. It is about what differentiates one artist from another, it is about human interaction between artist and audience, in the case of the live performance it is about the experience of seeing an artist perform. It is not about fiddling with the latest gadget.
One other thing, purely personal (but I see my sentiment is shared by some): I refuse, on principle, to have my audience dictate my art to me. Certainly, I don't feel obliged to use whatever clout I may have acquired through my art to promote my audience members' half-assed attempts at self-expression. They can go start their own bands and fiddle around with those.
who will do the headphone mix for the band? Hopefully someone with a little experience! I hosey!
Who needs the band! for gods sakes if the audience is doing the mixing!
We already have DJ doing that very thing with our music after its recorded!!!
that is bad enough,we will soon have no need for live music any more.
I think it's a cool idea, kinda of a lab experiment. That way if you are familiar with the band an know the soundboard operator never gives the mandolin enough signal or never gives vocalist enough treble you can adjust just the way you gripe at shows when you realize something is off in the room. I think it's a cool idea and I'd like to be a lab rat in this experiment.
Sorry I guess I'm gettin too old, but I love playing live to real people who we can interact with; why not just pipe it straight to their homes and they wouldnt even need to get their ass out of the chair! We sit in too much isolation already!
I can't read every single comment right this minute, so I may be repeating someone else's sentiments. I think this is basically a hell of an idea, but that there is no reason for every member of the audience to be involved in this part of it. Once the concert has been played, with each musician recording a separate track, a master copy (digital) can be provided to anyone who wants it. Said consumers can then use their own copy of cooledit, or Audacity, or Pro Tools, or what-have-you, to edit their copy as they see fit. During the performance, they're free to enjoy the show and buy drinks and hit on attractive people they want to go home with.
One more idea -- what about an optional composite master that comes out at the end as a kind of averaging of what the whole audience did? Perhaps this could tie into an initial pre-set option for each mixing patron.
Sorry...don't like this idea at all. If it's about experimentation, as one other put it, then it is not about performance where the artist has something to express of himself that came about as a result of a clear vision of his own that really shouldn't be censored by anyone. In theory, it all sounds okay and I am sure the camp will be divided,well, actually is, in regards to who'd go for it, and who wouldn't. As for me, there'd be no point in going to a concert. I wouldn't call it a concert. A concert is where I listen and enjoy what the artist is putting out. I, in fact, wouldn't be there, if I didn't like the artist in the first place, figuring he/she must have done something right to garner my interest in the first place.
Technology is wonderful. I love what it allows me to do in the studio, making video as well as audio presentations. I'd love to see more advances in technology, but not at the expense of our being able to interact with each other as human beings, which means, when attending a concert, it is the experience of that concert that is all important and that, quite frankly, is what I'd prefer focussing on, not staring at a screen mixing, applying eq, fx, compression, etcetera. If that is what others want to do, fine. Then do like we, who are musicmkaers do, go out, buy a PC, adecent soundcard, a mixing console of some sort, decent software, plugins, and, of course, a musical instrument, and express yourself, mix, remix, to your heart's content, as an inidividual.
Too many paint brushes will take away the individuality of the artist and he might just as well toss his brush aside and say "fuck it", cos this ain't what I was trying to say, damn it.
There is a time and a place for community experience...a time and a place for experimentation, but, dare I say it...nah, this is not it Derek. But, given the way things are going these days, we will soon be inteacting with each other through glass booths and pods, and more. That is not utopia. It is a nightmare and, in the end, gone is indviduality. Isn't the music scene bad enough as it is? Sorry...Wall Street ideas don't blend either. The business men don't have a clue as to what the whole thing is, or was, about in the first place.
Sory, the idea really sucks Derek!
Third Eye Blind’s latest album was supposedly made with input from other musicians, engineers, and producers.
It may have been just a promotional thing, but if it was sincere, what does that say about the band?
Are they stuck in the 90’s?
Have they lost that creative spark?
Music is a matter of opinion… not fact.
Do too many chefs really spoil the broth!
Commit… believe in your self!
Derek,
Great idea. Its awesome. I'd be very much interested in doing it.
ET
Very interesting idea - I, for one, would go to such a show! My guess is that such a venue would have to be not too big - 300-500 people capacity max), and the tickets would probably have to be expensive...
I find this interesting when I imagine myself in the audience but as a performer I really love when I speak to the crowd and they roar something back........ I don't believe I would like to be cut off from the audience in a booth. I like to delve into the crowd during a show and there is some kind of magic that happens there. Still I find this an idea with tremendous merit and would serve well depending on the type of show and artist.
Let's have an open mic instead...
I love your blogs but this is a TERRIBLE idea! How horrendously distracting. A gig is a whole big magical vibe where you are supposed to MOVE people. I can't think of anything more awful ... live is live. How are people supposed to be moved to tears, or laugh at your jokes, or ANYTHING, when you are in a booth, and they are piddling around with sound gear under their chairs. No!
In fact, even the illustrative photograph is HORRIBLE!
An Irish friend of mine had that idea 30 years ago. At the time it seemed kind of cool but now I don’t like it. Two reasons:
1. The only way to make it work is for everybody to have their own head phones and their own mixing board. That would do away with the sound field that we all live in when we go to a gig. It would no longer be a social event but rather a private thing – in effect alienated.
2. People would be fumbling around with the knobs instead of listening to the performance. As a player I would find this very irritating. I can see them getting more and more exasperated as they ruin the mix for them selves, with too much bass, too much reverb, etc. I can even imagine people asking me to start the song over again because now that they finally got it right they would like to hear it as “it was meant to be heard.”
My 2 cents.
Definitely NOT. First off, it goes totally against what a live performance is all about. And that's interacting with your audience. Their excitement, applause, screams, etc is what makes it all worthwhile.
And why in the world would any true artist allow just anyone to tamper with their art?
The only way this is cool, is to have it in a university for students that are taking an audio engineering course. This would give collage bands "studio" experience, and those on the outside "mixing" engineering experience.
True musicians aren't lab rats, and that's what this concept evokes images of. Can't we just keep it all simple... technology has damaged, if not just short of killed it, already.
Sounds like an interesting idea.
The idea sounds more like a candidate for a video game. To those of us who take our craft seriously know it is not a game. This sort of audience tinkering with someones hard work at trying to please them with their effort is insulting to say the least. If we had a room full of musical engineers or producers, then maybe we're getting somewhere.
Nah! I love to dance to the music and mixing isn't my thing. This wouldn't attract me or my dancing friends at all.
That'd be a pretty cool offering for hardcore music fans. Getting your own studio-ish quality mix of your favourite band...very cool.
Let me know when it launches!
not for me
Scary at first, but then opening the mind... why not?
Another venue, another output type for us musicians...
After reflecting a little, it sounds awesome. Not too attractive, but definitely interesting.
SOUNDS WILD, BEING DOING SIMILAR THINGS SINCE 2000. WORK IN STUDIO IN DENVER YEARS AGO. WITH SOUND TECH, HE WAS AHEAD OF HIS TIME.
Great! I never have to hear Joe Shmoe say "I can't hear the bass" anymore!
I re-read the article and had to LOL at the idea that someone might completely "mute the guitarist." It'd be a sobering moment for the guitarist when the band listened to the audience mixes and found out 37.8 % of the crowd had thought the guitar needed to be completely silenced - ha ha
This is probably not original, and I don't have the stamina to read all these posts, but this sounds like something that could be done online, and then the physical venue is irrelevant. It sure would be cheaper to let people mix their live feed from home.
Anyone who has used a sophisticated modern mixing system will know how far off the mark it is possible to be & how eq spacific instruments realy are....think that it would generate a respect for the guys who do get it right though, from someone who has been wrong !!
An interactive music concert; I could see something like this at Disney Land similar to the 3-D experiences..this would be a musical 3-D experience. Or it would be awesome with a Wilco or Pink Floyd type of band.
I just finished an interactive music video; you can't fully make your own mix but you can solo instruments within the mix. It's up at www.manda-onetruelove.com if anyone is interested in checking out the interactive concept.
Cheers!
Manda
Interesting as an exercise or as an extra option when buying a CD (as some artists have done) but I think this takes the DIY thing a little too far. Can't anyone just enjoy someone else's performance without having to put themselves in the middle of it?
didn't todd rundgren do something very similar to this years ago? i hate the idea myself.
can't see the value of this! getting a musical message across is hard enough without unnecessary variables like untrained people who are there to sit back and receive music, perhaps even fall in love, now fiddling with knobs and menus and trying lo pass filters and gadgtes that they don't even know what they're for. why bother to have a band - just get canned music on separate tracks and invite wannabe sound engineers to play around with a mix (which they should be doing on their PCs at home for 8hrs a day anyway if they REALLY wannabe sound engineers) ... but this would be less lonely, they could share their mixes and discuss it, i guess (which they should be doing anyway if they REALLY wannabe sound engineers)
An interesting perspective for sure...someone mentioned to me a long time ago that no one has a monopoly on all the good ideas, which it true. The hard part would be listening to ALL the mixes, but it's almost certain the artist would get some ideas they wouldn't have thought of themselves.
As a producer and engineer, it is normal to run a song 10s os times to set up the mix. My worry with this system is that by the time you have the mix where you want it, the song is over.
This is very much like the individual mixers we had for every musician in our studio in the early 80s. Each one could adjust their own monitor mix and they loved it! I think we were the first to do that. We have virtual sound system software now that would make this very easy to do....
Nice!
I love this idea. I want to do some gigs where I make available some shakers to the audience and allow them to shake along with me. It gives them a chance to interact with me right on stage, and the shakers have my website on them, which make great business cards. Then, you allow people to buy a CD of the performance so that they have a recording of their show that they played on. I'm researching ways to make this happenn.
FUN idea! There are many parts of it, some of which might be hard to get to work, some could be varied, some might be great all by themselves. This could probably be adapted in different ways (dance, studio design, education, crazy groups of semi-coordinated musicians, using speakers instead of phones, one mix panel per 10 audients, etc.) You need to build it so parts and ideas are interchangeable, & start with the cheapest conceivable version of each.
I think the live aspect is key, the way you use plexiglas, etc, to keep performers and audience in the loop with each other as much as possible...combined with the isolation and headphones! It's so WEIRD I think there is a segment of both musicians and hackers/ amateurs/ enthusiasts/ music lovers who wouldn't be able to get enough of it.
So, some technical ideas:
The box under the seat sounds too expensive. Think lite. Maybe just a usb-controlled mixer, and the audience member must bring their own laptop and download the software.
NO CHAIRS, just sturdy stands for the laptops.
Or, just a board with a bunch of cheap slide-pots (maybe with step-down transformers?). Or a usb-controlled mixer with physical sliders inputting to the laptop.
Jimmy Rogers gives classes where people learn to solder and build their own gadgets (usually sound- oriented) from kits, all in one night. Seeing beginners and kids finish his projects is inspiring. Build your own CROWDMIXER in the afternoon, practice some mixing, get pizza, and then MIXJAM with the band for the evening!
Mixing just live mics is useful but it isn't the kind of crazyfun you get with a sound editor after the fact, so some spice is needed... Putting effects boxes in the audience seats sounds expensive, but maybe have a whole lot of strange and modified trax to mix: effects, yes, but also loops and time-delays, synced to the beats and measures by an expert who's there.
Maybe what each musician is doing is building up a library of loops of his instrument.
Maybe the house & monitor speakers fade between random audience members' mixes...skipping ahead if enough people hit their NO-O-O-O-O! button.
Or maybe give a different effect control to each audience member?
Somehow polarized light to minimize reflection. Clear plexi monitor speakers at floor level. Each musician can either control his own monitor mix, or have it controlled by the sound guy if there is one.
Signal paths from the audience back to the band seem important but tricky. Mics in the audience for hoots and hollers of course, but something more, hmm.
Derek, this idea must be great for reasons I don't understand. You have struck an incredibly sensitive vein in this comments section. Being understood, the cost of replying to confused customers, I get that. But to have triggered THIS MUCH misunderstanding, horror and dismissal... something MAGIC is going on!
I am way late to this post, but oh well...
I think the best way to do this is to have several sound people, each mixing to a different area of the audience... Have audience members vote for the best mix just by watching where they stand.
This could also be used by a band trying to pick a traveling engineer... The guy with the most crowd overall gets the gig...
It would then be a LOT of fun, I would then love to be an audience to the same show if that is the case.
This sounds like a really interesting idea. I understand why some people are saying it takes away the individuality of the artist, but i wouldnt expect every gig they did to be in this format.
It could work if you were the only venue to use this format. Once you have the exclusivity the world is your oyster.