What do you do for feedback on a new song you're writing?
2009-02-27
What do you do for feedback on a new song you're writing?
- Do you play it for a few friends, looking for praise?
- Do you play it for a few friends, looking for criticism? (Really asking, “What don't you like about it?”)
- Do you upload it to your site, and email everyone you know, asking what they think?
- Do you send it to a company for paid critique?
- Do you have a songwriting teacher or mentor?
When you get feedback, are you looking to change and improve your song?
Or by the time someone hears it, is it pretty much done?
When I was at Berklee College of Music, then later living in New York City, I loved the songwriting workshops where you'd play unfinished songs for one teacher/mentor and a room full of other songwriters. They'd really tear it apart, analyze every note and word, and suggest improvements.
I learned so much about songwriting from those sessions. Not just for my own songs, but it's really educational to help improve other people's songs, too.
But that was before the internet. Is there something like that online, now?
What do you do for feedback on a new song you're writing? The more info you can give, the better. I'm really trying to understand other people's approaches to this. Thanks!
typically we'll finish the song and play it at a couple shows, either first or last, then ask ppl in the audience what they thought - honestly. we've got some pretty great and on point feedback from doing this, and typically the songs that are most loved at our live shows sell the most on itunes.
(1) I attempt to guauge audience feedback
(2) I solicit feedback by way of co-write meetings
(3) I just flake out, play it and simply don't seek it.
Primarily the 3rd. Foolish on my part.
Good question Derek
I usually play it for close friends. My four and half year old daughter is also the most honest person I know when it comes to that stuff. If she starts dancing right away, that's half the battle. If she stares at the speakers, I'm in trouble. I also submit stuff to Ourstage.com and see how it ranks at the end of the month.
Hope you are well.
Alexis
Though I hate email, I find it is useful for this. I like to send out emails individually to people with one song attached. I'll add in a couple lines about the song and then ask people about what they think. It is a pretty focused way to get someone to think about a song. If you send them a link to a site where you are streaming a bunch of music or send them an album, they tend not to have as much specific feedback about particular songs.
I have tried getting feedback from friends, family, Industry "experts" etc...which will only leave you more ocnfused and frustrated.
The bottom line is music is subjective, one man's garbage is another man's gold...write it and they will come!
hi Derek ..
I think there is no site that provides the same great feedback that a workshop can ...
I currently use friends for this, but it is not easy because one writes a lot and people have limited time ... you know what I am talking about .
I hope there's aplace where we can all share and critique our creations
I ask my cowriters for their input. I also belong to Nashville Songwriters Association International who do every genre of music, and as part of your membership you get 12 free evaluations from a pro writer per year.
Trial by fire was more like what I grew up with - instead of a "mentoring" environment like a classroom, songwriters in my circle of friends would come to this great little bar in Bogota (Colombia) called "San Sebastian", where we would get up on stage with the live crowd, and all the other musicians, and play our new songs.
So instead of "comments" you got a silent attentive room (they liked it), or a noisy chattery room (didn't like it). In any case, the owner being in charge of who could sing or not, would invite you back the following night or week, and that was the approval stamp.
Many songs from my repertoire had their trial-by-fire there, and it was a good thermometer for deciding whether the song was worth investing the time to perfect.
Sadly, I think many songwriters fall in love with too many of their own songs that may not have what it takes to get them noticed.
A "focus group" can really help weed out the good ones.
Luis
I try and play a new song for other musicians. Friends can be surprisingly critical. Musicians tend to understand the song-writing process and have a clearer grasp of what it means to write a song.
Also. Friends, bless them all, have a relationship with you and whether conscious or not, may have an agenda in the dynamics of that friendship. So the feedback can tend to be made through the filter of 'how they know you'...which sullies any attempt at objectivity.
My wife! My producer. My son.
Hey Derek.
When I'm writing, I'll be editing as I go - some songs never make it off the cutting room floor.
The songs that do get recorded in work tape form on my computer. I listen through a few times. If I feel like I want to keep listening after two or three times through, that's a good sign - then I'll try playing it out at a writers' night or two. If I still feel good about the song while playing it for a bunch of friends and fans and strangers, that's a good sign too.
If that feeling remains for more shows, it often makes the next record. It's kind of survival of the fittest, natural selection.
There are some songs that friends or fans seem to respond well to, that I don't feel good about. When that's the case, I try and give the song(s) a second chance. If I still don't get excited about 'em, they get shelved. I want fans to relate to the new stuff, but I need to feel it myself in order to play it out night after night.
Hope that helps.
-Tori
http://www.torisparks.com
http://www.myspace.com/torisparks
New album "The Scorpion in the Story" due in June 2009... stay tuned! CD + Music Video Release Extravaganza on June 4th @ The Rutledge (Nashville, TN).
1./ As idiotic as it might sound, I take a rough mix over for my Mom to hear.
2./ I have a network of pro songwriter pals that I run mixes by.
3./ Often I don't worry or care about feedback on songs. Many times, if I like it, that's good enough
That's it. The music I compose is presented in it's finished form, with no concern as to someone's liking it or not. It works for me... 19 CD's and counting.
I'd sure like to know what Paul McCartney did / does or Lenny Kravitz does for feedback.
Whatever they did, it results in hit songs.
I cowrite wither others, get feedback from the band on 'my' songs AND, my favorite, I'm in an ongoing, grass roots 'song group' with a bunch of Bay Area songwriters who meet every couple weeks, have dinner, then play our latest song. Lyrics are passed, comments made on structure, lyrics, form etc. It's a widely diverse group of writers and anywhere from 3-12 people show up (the email list is much bigger). It not only keeps us writing, it keeps us listening. You aren't asked to like the song, you're asked to serve it. I haven't done much online--tho I did sign up for Indaba & have made some contacts there--mostly because I'm already busy passing lyrics and mp3s back and forth with a couple of cowriters (some whom I first met in 'song group.')
I get it to a point where it's worth hearing by my peers, and then put it up on my buddy corey's project, dubfiler.com . send links to folks, they can stream or download, and then generally get comments in real-time over IM. do it in the middle of the day NYC time and it's pretty time-zone friendly.
Super, super-important to have a set of peers who'll give you real, constructive, honest criticism.
This is gonna get you and me all kinds of hate mail, but I gotta be honest - the two very LAST things I'd ever do is pay someone to critique something or go to a writers' workshop. When your song works, you know it. If you're not sure it does, and you need to solicit the opinion of a room full of people or pay an "expert", your song is not ready. Just keep working on it. You'll know when you get there.
There is a whole thriving cottage industry of such workshops and critiquing services. Spend your money on production and promotion of music that's the best YOU can make it be.
I've done all of the things in your preceeding paragraph as concerns feedback from others. Now, I watch body language and emotional reaction to the folks that are listening to the song. This can be difficult, because a lot of the clubs that we perform in are not conducive to listening. If there is a an emotional response to the song, I feel that I have done my job well. After all, this is what music is really all about--memories and emotion.
I send an acoustic version of all new songs to the members of the band. We then take it in to rehearsal if everyone agrees it is "worthy". After playing it through a few times we either give it a thumbs up or toss it.
Easy, I used to just not write songs.
Now I do write songs but it's a miracel if they lyrics are understood with me screaming them. So the songs are simple.
Other than that my girlfriend makes funny variations of the lyrics to tease me.
I'm been thinking about doing a "collaborative" experiment by posting the same piece weekly (in all its ugliness) as I progress, and elicit feedback from fans directly as I go. Then when the CD comes out, folks can say "Hey I helped with that!"
i work with a co-writer/producer; i'll ususally have 75-80% of the song in a cohesive form before i think about letting anybody hear it.
i don't solicit ideas from friends; they're obligated to give you positive feedback. my wife will be allowed OCCASIONALLY, or if i have a song that's about our relationship.
that's primarily because i generate the germs for songs, whether they begin as a lyrical/conceptual idea, or a groove that "feels" like a certain lyrical/melodical idea suits it. there's really no set pattern for me; it's strictly a feel thing. the lyrics usually come easier IF i have a stong conceptual base. if the idea is sort of amorphous, the song will take longer to complete due to the ambiguity of the the fundamental idea, message or story, which takes longer to flesh out.
Because I have been doing this a long time, my own bullshit detgector is very strong, but I sometimes run songs by my non-musical husband, to see how he reacts...if I see I'm losing him, I know it's not there yet. He has picked winners befoer."Oh, I like THAT one best" and that one went on the be the Western Music Association song of the year for me.
I also have a close songwriter friend to whom I'll send snippets, and he will say "Nope, you don't have the ends tied up on that one"...or "NOW you are writing like I know you can"
A couple of live performances will tell me if a song is working or not. Some that work well on an album, do not work as well as "stand alone" songs in concert.
Internet is really all I have @ this point to get awidespread of feedback on my music besides performing -I always enjoy having new people leave comments-just really after that word of mouf-Im headed to phoenix as we have a booth @ the Lowrider Car Show March 1st- Its like if whereever u @are isnt giving u the props your lookin for then u have to expand ya horizon-So living on the East Coast I have a lot of West Coast connects and I try to utilize that to the best of my ability- I've also learned that ya homies is gonna tell u hopefully what chu wanna hear-u gotta go other places because them same homies can be lying to you then you'll be shocked that when u get out there noone really likes you-
Basically I attempt to establish either the 'hook' or a signature riff, then work a full song around this. At that point I try to get feedback from other musicians who have different styles from each other. Then revisit the song creatively a final time before locking it down and moving on to another tune.
I tend to write for myself and the subject at hand vs appeasing any type of audience. What I find is that the audience fits into 2 categories: People who like music but necessarily don't know how to write music to save their lives, or people who write music but give their 2 cent opinion based off of what THEY'D do vs what's best for YOUR song. I say do your thing and let the chips fall where they lie. Music shouldn't have "test screenings". It defeats the purpose of a song's passion if all you're trying to do is maximize sales. If that's your goal, then go audition for American Idol.
I used to play in-progress works for anyone and everyone nearby but I've found that most people don't tend to give very detailed criticisms. When I did get criticisms, they tended to be about faults that were there because I had played a rough mix.
Now, I tend to work from start to finish without seeking feedback. Criticisms is always welcome, and I seriously consider it when I get it, but I'm not willing to put in the effort to seek it out.
I have a songwriters group-people whose opinions I trust. I also work sometimes with a writing coach. I really depend on feedback, as I am often not right about whether what I'm writing is good or not!
I used to network at East Coast Music on night a month where artists would meet and play one track of a song they may have just put together.
We would all then give that artist our feedback (using positive constructive advice) on where we thought the song might need some improvement. It was a great way to network and share our work.
This is an interesting topic Derek. I usually play my new songs, first and foremost, to fellow musicians/friends. Here, I'm looking for their crtiscisms. If they give the song praise, that's it for me!
However, I now know that it's important to play new songs to the 'lay' listeners as they usually are the music buyers; mainstream that is.
I used to network at East Coast Music one night a month where artists would meet and play one track of a song they may have just put together.
We would all then give that artist our feedback (using positive constructive advice) on where we thought the song might need some improvement. It was a great way to network and share our work.
I truly believe that the creative process is (even in the realm of, say, 'Jazz' composition and performance) a singular one. While I understand why some people might cherish the value of having another person dissect and disseminate their art, I think it is more important for the artist (or artists, if that is the case) to do this on their own. There is nobody who is going to be a greater catalyst at centralizing what you hope to express than you are -- but the key is to be willing to be honest with yourself. While other people may be able to point you into the direction where they feel you should go, I think the duty of a creative artist is to be assertive enough with yourself to figure out why something is/isn't working. Likewise, while it is possible that somebody could offer useful advice, it is just as likely that they could send you down the wrong path, which might cause you to jettison an otherwise fine piece of music.
I've found that I can instinctively tell when something I'm writing just isn't working, and I've certainly made mistakes in denying this obvious aspect when writing something (perhaps because I thought a particular aspect was 'clever'). But part of the process is listening to what you're doing, and ultimately, I feel it is more important for an artist to create something that pleases them over something that pleases someone else. If their art happens to please somebody else, that is great, but I don't feel that people should create simply out of a desire to appease others.
What I usually do is use my own test of time. Put them on a shelf and if after a month or so I can still remember the melody and most of the words (and all of the feeling), it's a keeper.
I don't listen to a lot of stuff nor do I attempt to balance my stuff to other music. If I can hum it as I can hum a 70s song, I have a keeper.
1) Play it. Pay close attention to when something just doesn't feel right. Add an arrangement, subtract an arrangement, or just ditch the section/song altogether.
2) Record it. Go for a walk and listen to the song critically -- suppressing the temptation to only hear your own contribution (unless you *are* the only contribution). Play it for a few friends who will be honest with you.
3) Play it live. See how people react to the song. Did it get more/less applause than the rest of the set? Are people talking to you about it after the show? Are they asking to buy the CD that has that song on it?
I send it to my most trusted musician friends. My guitarist and producer and another friend I have written with before. I look for constructive, unbiased criticism. They are the ones who know me and my capabilities and I trust them to be open to new styles and subject matter that I might be persuing. It's always a great experience and I have made amazing changes in songs and my ability to write because of them. I am not a fan of paid critiques and I would not put a song up on the web until I was sure it was finished. It may be a demo recording but the song itself must be finihsed. Here is a favorite quote from Janis Ian "Nowadays it doesn't matter if I don't write anything for a year. My thinking is, I'm a good songwriter, and occasionally I will be a great songwriter." Janis Ian
It keeps me writing and trying without having the pressure of being perfect all of the time. I am a pefectionist in many areas and it can be to a fault if I don't remember that.
Show it to a few colleagues who’s opinions I trust.
If written & recorded for a requested submission, I'll send it in and hope it sticks to the wall. If it's "close but no cigar" it often will come back with suggested changes for resubmission.
If I'm really high on it, I'll perform it at a live show to see audience reaction.
I use soundcloud.com Not all that many people are on the site yet, but most of them that care to listen will give some sort of constructive criticism or just a pat on the back or whatever.
I think songs are like photographs. If you watch a photographer in action, shooting, he or she moves around like a snake, shooting every angle, not hesitating or laboring over decisions. Then later the best handful are presented as finished product.
Never stop writing, never labor too much, finish the song and move on to the next. Evaluate them later. Get feedback, but also take some time away and listen with new perspective later. You will hear your songs with fresh ears and have a much clearer picture of which are your best.
Like any craft, the more you write, the better you get at it.
I start off with my girlfriend and some friends, but of course they usually just praise it (not that it's not great, but i don't get much negative feedback from them).
Then I put it on Myspace / Acidplanet / other sites and see if I get comments. Unfortunately, I used to get alot more comments and reviews from random people which were very helpful, but lately no one seems to bother posting comments on Myspace, etc.
Generally speaking I keep my songs to myself and work them until they are ready for the light of day. I don't actually solicit feedback very often.
I would however like to offer a thought to those of you with short attention spans (like me): have someone else sing/play your song to you and if you still like hearing someone else sing it, then you might just be onto something good.
I get a lot of help from the Songwriters Guild of America. (www.songwritersguild.com)
They have proven results that can help you write and polish your song before pitching to record companies or film/tv listings.
Its remarkable.
I wait a few days and if I still like a song I solicit feedback from friends who aren't afraid to tell me the honest truth. Then I turn to a "mentors" who can give me more technical advice.
Depnds if your a song catcher or a song crafter.. Some people just honor the inital inspiration of something others bring it to the anvil and craft it.. Both valid approaches..
I'll play 3-4 new songs at a performance or an open-mic nite, then as then as they're leaving, I'll ask people which song(s) they remember well enough to whistle. (The "Old Grey Whistle Test")
1. I play it for my wife, who is very critical of my work, then re-work the song.
2. I play it at my church, gauge audience reaction, and,if necessary, re-work the song.
3. Record it, post it at Taxi, submit it to a few listings, post at Broadjam, submit it for peer review and post it to my fans website http://cliffsongs4you.com where they can rate and comment on the song; gather feedback from all three and, if neccessary, re-work the song and/or the recording.
I attend a once a month gathering at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago where a group of sometimes 20 or more songwriters sit in a circle and critique new songs that are presented.
I'll oftentimes change certain elements of a song if the whole group agrees on a certain criticism, especially if it's some aspect I already had doubts about.
I really do aske people "What DON'T you like about my song?"
Most of my work is audio art, and these days, when I am finishing a piece, I'll put it up at a secret url on my webpage: http://www.hoodturkey.com /something not published, and then I'll e-mail a few friends and ask them for their thoughts.
Derek,
Good to see you old friend. Honestly - I wouldn't dream of soliciting feedback in any way. I create songs as a one way (OUT!) expression in order to create more. The notion of feedback on something so personal strikes me as absurd - however EXCELLENT as conversation.
All the best my friend,
B.
Songwriting is a very personal process. When I was younger I used to play half finished songs to friends for input, and I advise that you do that when you're starting out. I still do it if I get stuck with a song, but if the muse is flowing and you're loving what you're writing and are happy with the result, no criticism will make you want to change what you've written.
That being said, when I went to record my last album I let my musical collaborators suggest changes to the arrangements because they had so much more experience than me, and they were seldom wrong.
Just be sure you know what you're asking for and whether you really want to hear what people honestly think of your writing. I've had friendships damaged in poorly thought-out exchanges like this!
I like what Mr. Pike said....but reality is I never heard of him and his 19 CDs. If you're looking for the broadest possible audience for your music, and who isn't, objective criticism is crucial whether you like it or not. My two cents.
The more help you have with your garden the less it belongs to you.
I play the songs I write live and look for excitement.
The (Beat,Groove,Creates excitement)I then look for genuine intrest in faces or Questions. i the consider marketability etc.
I then determine if the song is better live or on stage.
I then play it for smart people,then dumb people
I then get drunk and swear never to write another song
I then sober up amnd start the whole process all over again
You don't have to be nuts But it sure HELPS
I'm so glad I'm not an approval junkie.
In answer to Derek's question: absolutely nothing.
That's because I have the balls and candour to do whatever the f**k I want without the need for approval, fans, or changing what I wanted to do for some fat-cat exec producer. If I like it, it goes on the album (gets released, whatever).
I upload them, send them to my band mates and a couple friends. Our drummer Steve is very honest. He tells me if he thinks it's too short, if the hook is good, if my lyrics suck ass.
I play it for my band, they make some edits, we record it. Nobody else has ever offered me constructive feedback. I'd be curious to have an intense song critique with some honest strangers.
I find that the best way is to put it in the song list for that nights gig and see what people think.
In the final analysis, the only people that matter are your audience and your fans.
the more people you ask , the more different advices you have !
If you're going to do a workshop, make sure you're with songwriters of equal or greater ability or level of accomplishment as you otherwise, the critiques are not going to hold much water.
Lately, I might play a song idea for my co-writing buddies and if they're into it, we finish the song. If not, it gets shelved.
If I play an idea for a friend, again it's a friend who I consider to be an excellent songwriter and if they like it, then I know I'm heading in the right direction. If he or she offers criticism that improves the song, then I'll implement their ideas. And of course I'll give them co-writing credit if the ideas get used in the final master.
Often, the tune's already finished by the time anyone hears it.
Hope some of this is helpful.
I send links to MP3s of my tunes randomly
to people I don't know. (I find it's very cost effective, and surprisingly honest... I figure a stranger has no need to soften a critique for the sake of my "feelings")
Yes, I try to get to listen my songs to my friends even if song is not ready yet, by playing guitar & sing with. But for years was using Broadjam service where not only people of music but also people of people can listen to uploaded tracks & comment. It was helpful as well. I never try to improve already writen song, but next time i write one I try to perfect off new one from any angle(from my point of view of course).
I am always open to feedback and believe the ultimate goal in songwriting is getting the best song possible. When I write a song I usually take it to my band and see if they like it. Then we work on it and adapt it together. It seems to work well.
I am very wary of just putting a new song out there because, as someone said earlier, it's so subjective. And for every gem of advice you have to wade through a couple dozen bad suggestions. The key really is to find those gems in the morass. Seems like everyone's got an opinion, but finding one that actually applies is no easy task.
And if everyone is offering all these critiques, it's so easy to just get bogged down by negative energy in what is an emotionally fragile process of songwriting.
So I'm open to feedback and have embraced many critiques over the years, but I'm just very wary and guarded about it.
What a great question.. And one that has haunted me of late. There's a few answers in my life:
1. Play it for a friend or my mom if I need an ego boost.
2. Don't play it for anyone until I finish it, or near finish it. By then it's usually congealed into its final form and making changes is harder.
3. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO: upload it to my Web site or another Web site and share it with a small trusted group of people who I know will give me *honest* feedback. People who know the industry and are experienced songwriters themselves.
4. I also submit songs to Taxi, and sometimes give feedback, which is great. But may of their listings give you a simple accept/reject, with no critique.
Damian
I'd never use a paid service to critique my work. That's just throwing away good money.
Being a comedy-based writer, I spend a great deal of time in serious writing and polishing of my tracks before I release them.
Then, once released, I let the chips fall where they may and solicit feedback from friends or people I've met on-line.
Over the years, I've gotten some great feedback on the quality of tracks I mix...I've learned to listen to it using someone else's ear.
I use to just worry about if people "got it". Now I know that if they can hear it..."getting it" is secondary. My vocals need to be mixed correctly and the overall mix has to be sharp.
Of course, it helps to have my own "comedy" review site (www.AllSuckReview.com) where folks can get my review of their work (provided they want to hear me say that it sucks).
Then, they may, in turn, check out my stuff and give me some feedback.
Oh yeah, it helps when they buy my stuff. Getting paid is always a great piece of feedback.
Typically, I know what I am after when I write... Not that I know the finished form - but the journey to that finished form can take an hour, a week, a month, or years. I don't always know right away when I am done. Or I think I am, but discover later that I am not. And that process of gradual completion is what I am after - like digging a fossil out of soft mud and bit by bit separating the bone from the debris. Or chipping away at a block of ice or gnarly piece of wood until hidden forms are able to reveal themselves, as completely as possible.
...So other people's input is not always very helpful to this process. I make what I want to make, I write what I want to write, and then I record or perform it and people respond how they respond. I haven't had many, if any, bad reactions, though some tunes clearly have more of an effect that others. That is fine.
Often I test my "finished" tunes at open mic nights so I can see what they do. Then I have a better idea of how they might fit into a live set or a CD project. Sometimes the order in which a few songs are performed can emphasize or totally kill the response to one or another of them.
Actually, as for bad reactions, they sometimes come when I first start writing, when the idea is raw and naked and maybe a little bit goofy, and I have to weather the doubts (mine and others') in order to pursue what I know has promise.
I don't write or perform for applause or appreciation (although, these things are nice when they happen). I do it because I love it, and because I love to do it well when I can. (This can be practiced). As it happens, people respond well to that.
I burn CDs, create a formal questionnaire and give it to at least 10 friends. I give them a deadline and let them express themselves freely. As an incentive, I have paid them $10 each or some prefer a free CD when it comes out.
Usually, someone says something that results in changes. I find this method to be very helpful.
This month I'm writing & recording 14 songs...and putting them out in public to get feedback. That's a hard process, but is enlightening.
I've got one day left, and only 5 songs published on my site.
But I'd like to hear what you think.
I just did this today. I have been working on my new musical so I am writing the libretto as well as the songs so the lyric ideas have to be contectual. The dialogue tells you if the next emotional step is dance (sometimes) or song, a heightened emotional vehicle. So, I had written a new song for the musical (It's about Moses) and I wrote some music I liked (big emotional ballad)and then spent a few days working on the dialogue and the lyric at the same time. My first draft I ran by my wife (not a songwriter but a very educated person (MD))and she said she felt the emotion in the lyric so I will then do a studio ruff/work disc and perfect the chorus melody so it maximizes the emotion. Typically notally the fifth is a much stronger point than the third or the tonic for a starting note in the chorus. In big ballads sustaining and repeating those lead notes can lead to those much wanted and anticipated goose bumps....I've had quite a lot of success with my songs so I'm fairly confidant the critique process is working. I work to write memorable yet not overly simplistic melodies. I have a small group of people I would also occasionally run an idea/half-finished song by and most of them have been at one time a co-writer. When I lived in Nashville I would go by ASCAP (I am a BMI writer and both BMI and ASCAP publisher)and run some songs by some of the VP's. That helped a lot.
I think the best feedback you can get on a song is in the live milieu; if someone in the audience comes up and wants to buy the album the song is not yet on, or the response is tepid (like people leaving during the song!), that's all the positive or negative feedback an artist needs.
Going to critique sessions is great for someone starting out, but after a few years it's safe to assume that everything one does is a premeditated aesthetic choice that has absolutely nothing to do with what someone else thinks of it. That is to say, the truly objective helpful nuggets of advice taper off the longer one is engaged in one's process and sharing work with other artists.
I try to make each song the epitome of what it's supposed to be, no matter the genre...different people are going to connect with different things, as art is subjective. So when I finish a song, it may appeal to a relatively small fringe demographic, but that has no bearing on a song's overall quality. It's just different strokes.
XOXO
I use "Garageband.com" as a primary source for feedback. I also just ask around and play it for friends, family, and really try to pinpoint what it is the like/dislike and most importantly: WHY. I really to press on the why. I also try to differentiate between lyrics and music. Yes, I may change some aspect of the song, but if I feel very strongly about some element of the song - I might choose to not change a doggone thing about it.
Some years ago, I posted my songs on certain online platforms where you got feedback from other (similar) artists or whoever. It was absolutely unhelpful due to various reasons. 50 comments, 50 opinions.
What I learned then was that music is best when it comes straight from your heart, no compromise! I nowadays make the music only for myself, the way I like it. The way I would wish others to make their music sound like but they don't do it.
I only ask friends with knowledge in this matter for help concerning the technical side: EQing, mastering, etc. But the music... well, frankly, I don't care anymore if others like my music or not. Some do, that's great, but most don't. Their bad. ;)
If my 4 year old is humming or singing the melody/chorus an hour later without realizing it, I know I've got a winner
I usually don't present unfinished tracks. When I have an idea I go for it. When it is finished I decide what to do with it, if I keep it or forget it. But I'm writing so much music. We ( Elizabeth and I )have written and produced 30+ high quality instrumental tracks since January.
The more I do, the more ideas come up. I don't like to breed over a piece of music. If it is strong, it pops up all on it's own.
Hi Derek, At the moment I've been looking for the feedback and asking for it on my Myspace site, also sending it to Publishers dropping the good points Like I'm #4 on www.ubl.com/charts/pop and That I got sing On 2 Velvet Revolver Tunes which I've posted, asking people to leave a comment On Th VR site and mine.You never know who is listening!!
Cheers
Tommy
Dear derek, thanks for all your great articles, as a singer/songwriter, i just put out whatever comes out of me. Music is subjective, what one may dislike, another will praise. So i have learned to share my music wherever i can : with other musicians, with listeners and different audiences of all ages, and in different envirements. I havn,t tried the songwriter circles, maybe cause my experiences with other musicians are always too judgemental, and ego,s in the way. well take care and be blessed derek
I write with a partner, so we both tear each other apart or pour praise; both with no shame which is good.
We recently did a record with a famous producer and he had no mercy on our 'precious' songs. He'd rip entire verses out or say something was crap. Sometimes he was right and other times we stuck to our guns and he came around. In either case, it was a new experience and really opened us up to a fresh way of working with objectivity and unattachment.
We also try out songs for friends and ask for critique, but I've found the BEST way to get feedback is to just throw a new song (even if unfinished) into our live set and see and feel how it goes over. I find you can tell pretty quickly whether it goes over or not.
I listen closely for the applause !
A songwriter is like a decorator. You take cues from what's there around you, but you then look inside for answers. You let your imagination take control, telling it that there are no right or wrong ideas. First, it must feel right to you, then you check with those you respect to see if they agree. Be prepared to be a song re-writer, willing to keep digging for better ideas. It's like pannying for gold, you sift though a lot before you find what you really want.
I've found that constructive criticism should only be solicited (via email from close friends and family) when you are "finished" or nearly finished with a recording. If you want feedback about a song you are writing then I would apply the same general logic... wait until you are done or nearly so and then listen to your friends advice with an open mind. Don't immediately disregard what they are saying until you have had a chance to thoroughly digest the critique and then you can make a decision to act on the advice. I recommend at least one good nights sleep before making changes or disregarding advice.
I am lucky enough to live in an area that is surrounded by great musicians. If I am stuck and absolutely need to hear what other people think, i'll take it to the most honest and best musicians I know. People who are a ton better than I am hahaha.
As long as you know they are being honest...thats the best thing to do.
I wouldn't release anything I wasn't 100% proud of. As long as you are "there" with your music...go ahead and release it, THEN just hope people see what you see.
The other day Gwyneth Paltrow said something like this:
"You don't get it, because if you GOT it, you would LOVE it"
As long as you are doing good work, that you are happy with, people will get it.
Don't listen to or trust critics. Good or Bad review.
I like to play it for my 10 year old daughter; if she says it sucks then she's probably right. Kids are very honest. Other than that I play it for other musical friends who also write songs and eventually play it live at a gig.
To get professional feedback, I use the Songwriters Guild of America.
They have a great team of people with track records who help you polish your songs and get proven results.
I've used many professional services and I've never learned so much about 'real' songwriting.
I learned to not trust my friends or family.
i am my primary audience. if i don't like it, then there's no point showing others.
i've also found that family and certain friends don't "get" music that isn't mainstream, (loud, quirky, electronic, whatever.), so their opinion is of limited value, and often confuses me. especially when comparing to people who do like the genre. take-away-lesson: audition to people who normally like that kind of music...
however, if a song i write does appeal to them, it's usually a good catchy song, so i guess it's more mass market that way. easy to stomach, no burn in period required before you "get it", more accessible... which, has it's purposes, a few real hooks on an album to draw people in, and the rest can be more interesting after that to satisfy the more critical listener.
I think you know when a song is finished...The problem is that there are a lot of unfinished songs that being selfish and not wanting to share credit, have inhibited the potential of the song. Rewrite, rewrite, rewrite or collaborate with a songwriter you admire and trust. When he/she can't suggest anything, done!! Lastly, 50% of a hit song is worth a lot more than 100% of a shitty song.
TO THOSE THAT SAY THEY DON'T SEEK FEEDBACK:
Does that mean your songs can not be improved?
Or that they can be improved, but only you know how to improve it?
Or that others might have great suggestions for improvements, but you just don't want to hear it?
Thanks for asking this question to the community. I recently was looking for a legitimate method of vetting a series of compositions for a new CD we are producing. Most of the 'rating' sites I found either did not look credible or seemed poorly attended. I was also looking for more professional than casual feedback- the reviewers would need to know something about the music industry, music theory and composition and also be very active listeners in order to provide detailed feedback on each song (there were 14 compositions and over an hour of music)
I realized that in order to get the quality of feedback I was looking for I would need to recruit and paid people. Since our budget was small (200.00) I decide to recruit only 8 people from different segments of our intended audience. I got several student from the music industry program to participate and also some faculty in the college of music. Then I got a few friends that I could just count on to be really honest and explicit in there comments on the music. I also focused my questions in the follow format:
Step One: Rank the songs 1 = best to 10= least favorite.
Step Two: for each song comment on the following
- Length
- Listenablity
- Composition
- Images and feelings evoked
- audience this piece might appeal to
- Lyrics
- other feedback...
The feedback from all the comments were compiled and given to the composer who is now making adjustments to the content of the music and format for the CD based on this pre-release feedback. Many of the comments started to provide indicators that certain pieces needed more fine tuning or might be better considered in a different order. There were only a few areas of undeniable consensus but none the less the review process was extremely helpful and eye-opening.
I hope there can someday be an community of peers to provide this type of service.
Thanks again for posing this question Derek- appreciate all you do for the wide world of music.
Hey Derek, thanks for asking about feedback on songwriting. I would like to make a brief comment about this. My main goal when writing a new song is for it to be catchy with a good melody or cool unique riffs that make it musical and exciting. You must be able to critique yourself honestly. Listen closely to your song and be honest if it's boring. If it is, you need to immediately start working on it again and make it more exciting. When I was in the studio recording my new jazz release, my musicians were whistling the melody of my tunes while they were in the control room and off to the bathroom or kitchen. That's when the true satisfaction happens for me. To hear the tune come alive for the first time and people digging it as a catchy exciting tune. That's it man. By the way, you went to Berklee I see. I wonder when you were there? I have a BM from Berklee. Cool man.
I start with people closest to me like my wife and her kids (they can be very opinionated and brutal, but that is good thing). I will post on quite a few music web sites lke numberonemusic.com, reverb etc... I used to post on acidplanet.com and garageband.com though not much any more. Garageband is really set up well for getting opinions tough sometimes that can a bad thing. I am just starting to set up polls on my blog and release sites. We shall see what kind of responses I get with them.
in terms of feedback, there is something that i keep in mind the whole time. if you are going to present a song to the public then it is going into the general song pool with all the other songs that have been written and then sung in public. that pool includes every song by rodgers and hammerstein, the beatles, bob dylan, etc. you get the picture. so pick your favorite songs by other people and put them up against your song. are they that good? if they aren't then you haven't finished writing your song yet. check out the numerous post on this at the free artist resource site, www.datamusicata.com
james lee stanley
I have people I online chat with listen to the songs on CD baby. I get all positive feedback. Some of them have left comments on the CD baby site. I know which songs are strong and which ones are weak. From the statistical data you provide My song Shotgun is the most popular. So on my website that is the song that plays. Also a video was made on utube to further promote it. My songs are what they are. I have had another musician cover a few of my songs with a different approach. Those will be available in the future. I have a backlog of CDs to produce. I will be releasing one a month because a new song on CDbaby gets more hits initialy.
I take a drive with one of my musician friends and play them a rough mix I've recorded, even if its just vocals and guitars. Once to listen through it, then a second time for criticism.
makes sure that it's a friend who can be brutally honest if they need to be.
As far as feedback on a mix, driving in the friends car and listening on THEIR stereo is the best, because they know what a hit is supposed to sound like on their stereo and can tell if something is amiss.
Yes, song developement is cool, provided the songwriter is really interested in the criticism. Like Donald Trump in the boardroom, ask opinions from board, but, to only assist with your final decision. The songwriter needs to make the final call. Barry Gordy from Motown, Hitsville USA, used to run it exactly the same way. And at the end of the session, he would ask the group: "IF YOU WERE DOWN TO YOUR LAST DOLLAR, WOULD YOU BUY A SANDWICH OR THIS RECORD?"
Ken Carmen
The Mondays
I hit up friends on AIM or via email and ask them to give me feedback on a new mix which I've uploaded to my server.
Be sure to ask musicians and non-musicians! They look at music very differently!
I never ever ever play a new song for the public until it is copywritten. I know in my heart that my song is MY song and if anybody rips off my new song which is like gold to me I would be shattered. My music is my soul, nobody can take it away from me.
Once my new tune is copywritten and pressed I perform it in public. Trust NO ONE in this world. Take the GIN BLOSSOMS for example. Doug Hopkins was kicked out of the band for drinking and they made his tunes a hit on Billboard so he shot himself in the mouth.
First I live with it and rely on my own judgment more than anything else.
Then I play it for my wife with no explanation. Just to see what she thinks and if she gets what the song is about.
Then I'll play it for one other friend who's been a publisher for many years.
But after many years in the business I've finally balanced other people's opinions and my own.
Often, if something's not right with the song, people will try to tell you what's wrong and how to fix it. What they're saying usually is not what's wrong.
The only thing you can depend on is that something might be wrong.
Then it's up to you as the creator to find out what it is and how to fix it.
my bandmate never hesitates to mention something in a song that doesn't work and it always ends up being something in the song that i was having doubts about anyway. beyond that playing the songs live has always been the best indicator. if i don't have any desire to play a song live it's usually a good reason to ditch it because if i'm not excited enough about it to tear into it live that means it's most likely not a very good song.
If it passes my own inner editor then it's fine. I'm very demanding of myself.
2 things:
songwriting workshop at hudson valley community college in troy ny- run by me
cat songwriters festival, may 30-31 in hudson ny...have your song critiqued by the pros
end of commercial
I don't look for feedback while I'm writing / when I just wrote one. I guess it depends on WHY you are writing.
If I would be a songwriter for someone else (not me) and / or it would be important that the songs fits in a certain concept, I might ask fellow musicians for their opinion.
I only write songs because I feel I need to write them. So they are completly subjective. Fortunatly some people like them. But I don't think I would write other songs just because somebody thinks I should.
Besides pop/rock, which I've done my whole life, I have been writing musical theatre for about 15 years, and in that community one's material is critiqued and workshopped constantly. We have a sort of "salon" of writers who meet monthly to listen to and critique the work of the others. But I've seldom done anything like that in my pop work.
When I collaborate, which I often do, the collaboration itself is the quality control -- I only collaborate with those who are in it for the purpose of creating the best song possible and who check their egos at the door.
When I write alone, which I do for my own singer-songwriter material, I am my own harshest critic and, really, I try to create something that would hold my own interest if I heard it as someone else's. I do not as a rule play a finished song for others for the purpose of notes; my personal material is just that, personal, and I don't have much of a need for acceptance by every single person who hears it.
On the other hand, if I'm creating a song for someone else or the general market then, yes, I look for notes from my most trusted songwriting buddies.
i like to record a new song and then leave it alone for a few days. when i pick it up again, i have forgotten "where i was" with it. that way, i get to hear it with brand new fresh ears - as if hearing it for the first time.
other people's opinions are worthwhile - but the most important opinion is your own. the songs that i have had the most sales and success with were the ones that blew ME away first and foremost.
i read in an interview where a big time CEO used a little trick each time he had to make a big decision. he used to photocopy the document he was working on and then throw the original away - thereby 'removing' himself from the pressure of the task at hand.
that is why we pay producers (and therapists). they are not attached to the feelings the way we are.
it is hard to be an artist, a producer, a marketing guru, an accountant, and a regular person - all at the same time.
but we love it now don't we?!)
thanks derek for all that you do!
bill
www.itunes.com/billwest
www.billwestmusic.com
When I accidently sent a recording of hangover to a group of friends
instead of the song that I promised them that I was sending, and "THEY LOVED IT", I was convinced that friends are not the 'sounding board' for new songs!
After 40+ years of songwriting, which has included an occasional hit, when my collaboraror and I
get done 'bouncing' it off of each other, we take it in to the studio and demo it...one of the guys in my band who worked with Elvis and
a bunch of big names has a 'sixth sense' about songs and isn't timid about letting you know his feelings!
We call it the "Ron-test"....
That's my story Derek and I'm sticking to it.....for now!
Rich
I've been in songwriter groups, and I really adore the community aspect of it. I think they are a powerful way to network, workout ideas, and stay connected & inspired.
That said, I've found that for me, songwriting is a pretty fragile thing. I've brought songs in, played them, and gotten wonderful feedback, constructive criticism, but something happens, and after I've played a song that is not finished, and opened it up that way - I completely loose energy to finish it. And the bummer is, it's my loss.
I love songwriter gatherings, and wish they worked for me, but I've got to honor the tunes coming through first.
The best feedback is an audiences response - and playing a new tune out helps tweak it.
I'll also play them one on one for artists I trust.
Everyone's process is different.
That's what's so crazy-making and magical about the whole thing.
by the time someone hears it, is it pretty much done
I was always fearful of people stealing the songs if I sent them to somewhere I didn't know.
But no one has knocked on my door about them either.
This is what I do for feedback:
http://www.em411.com
Sometimes they can be brutal, at other times very helpful. I like it.
When I first write a new song , I call up my sister Lisa and sing it for her over the phone. I can gauge by her reaction if it's any good. If she cries then I know it's good.
then I will call up some of my song writing friends and also sing it over the phone, while playing the guitar, a skill that many of us song writers have learned to do. If I get a thumbs up, then I might try it out on stage. If after singing it for my friends ( who are honest) and I hear well.. Rik.. it's OK ..but....
Then it goes into the song bin
Oh, I should have also said that the people I ask for feedback know that I want honest feedback. I tell them to be blatantly honest.
Personally, when I compose a song, I'm really self-thinking.
I don't care about others opinions, exept the opinion of my singer, because she take part of the composition process too.
I won't change anything because peoples don't like it, because then maybe I will not like it anymore, and the peoples who liked it before, won't like it anymore too.
We can't please anyone I think. And the first to be pleased, is yourself.
As a side note and in response to Derek's latest post (#23). I don't like to have any feedback too soon, as I don't want it to effect my voice as a writer.
I have found that feedback during the critical stage of creation doesn't help. I have to trust my own instincts. I'm the one who is going to be playing it, so it has to sit right with me. after the song is finished I don't mind criticism but it seems very subjective, people have their own tastes. one person will seem lukewarm about a song (which means they probably hate it) and then another will say it's their absolute favorite. I don't think I could ever do a songwriting workshop where they tear you apart, except maybe to learn new ways of playing guitar. The lyric writing and singing comes from a place that is too unknown to me, I think interference at that stage would be a disaster.
Good question Derek. When I need feed back for Ronnie's songs I usually go to internet DJ's. (the indie guys) I find most DJ's are pretty honest about whether a song will play well for their audience. Of course there are exceptions but so far my experience has been awesome. They really go in depth about what they think is good or needs to be improved.
I have a few friends who I respect and a spouse, all of whom are gutsy enough to tell me the truth. I play at a twice monthly jam where new material can be introduced and an audience can react. Until I write that million seller, I have more work to do..
I'm my worst critic when it comes to song writing. I don't need the imput of others. I need to feel confident to share it with my audience and stand fully behind what I'm singing about. I'm sharing myself, my feelings and experiences in my songs. Being authentic is my goal and I hope people can connect.
Marianne
I have been writing songs since 1965. My relationship with song is based on the concept that each song is like a child of mine. I write them, they exist. Occasionaly one is created with a specific purpose (I composed a Christmas song specifically for Sinatra--he rejected). I see song composition as expressing a comment on something that deserves comment (Bad love/good love, STDs, money and its importance in a variety of situations, cars, old buildings--There's thirty-five songs right there). I write songs because songs need to be--JH
Don't listen to it for a few days, or better longer, so that you can kinda hear it more like someone else, as opposed to the heat of passion, right after you wrote it. Objectivity?
Same goes for emails! If it's something angry or sensitive, read it a few days later, then decide whether to send it or not!
Now, if I could only follow my own advice like that, I'd be PERFECT!
See my 2/27/09 Twits about that
http://twitter.com/arkadymusic
which is how I found out about this page! - Derek's another ace!
If I simply write a song, and consider it complete right out of the box, that's plain arrogance, as well as a disservice to the song.
Some of my best songs came about *after* the tweaking. I once wrote a first draft of a song in a few hours, but it took months of tightening stuff before it really sounded like a "real song". Song songs simply have their own incubation time.
I've spent valuable hours in songwriting workshops with professional songwriters and others, which is really helpful. I've also met some good co-writers this way.
A few years ago Julia Brown and I used to host a songwriting circle of peers in my kitchen in Brooklyn, which we called "The Kitchen", and those were like sacred songwriting circles in which we listened to and critiqued each other's work.
We had lots of talented singer/songwriters come through "The Kitchen", which was a very supportive and honest atmosphere. I highly recommend setting up songwriting circles with people you respect.
Your girlfriend will always love your songs - that's easy! Instead, get around like-minded songwriters who will force you to bring your A Game to the table. Nothing like a little healthy competition to inspire you.
Having said all of that, I also believe that it's important for a songwriter to be ruthless when it comes to handling creative feedback from others. You can play your song for three different people, and get three different suggestions for change.
While it's important to be open to making a song the best it can be, it's also important to remain true to the song that's coming to life through you.
I get critiques from TAXI and Broadjam when submitting tunes to listings.....other than that, I write, record, and produce a final product that works for me. During the process, I'm always thinking of comments made by other writers and producers about what they think makes a great song....but the bottom line is if it works for me. If I want the truth, I play it for my wife....she's usually spot on with comments regarding the song, the performance, and the mix.
I HAVE A FEW HONEST PEOPLE THAT I LET LISTEN,WHO KNOW MUSIC AND ARE IN MY TARGET AUDIENCE AND A FEW WHO DONT AND AREN'T.SOMETIMES THE BEST WAY,I FIND IS TO GRAB SOMEONE YOU DON'T KNOW,WHO'S IN YOUR TARGET AUDIENCE, BUT DON'T TELL THEM IT'S YOUR MUSIC.YOU WILL USUALLY GET THE MOST UNBIASED OPINION THAT WAY.
If I think it's really good I'll call an old friend who I open for and play it over the phone, if he likes it I add it to my open mic list and play it as soon as possible to see what my other musician friends think of it. By then I know if it's a keeper or a dud.
Here is something off the norm maybe no one has tried or heard of here. Norah Jones had her first album analyzed before she broke out. This software predicted 8 songs would be a hit before anyone had heard of her. Sure all the usual play it out, get the fans response is the tried and true way to go about it, I'm not saying not to do that just that this is interesting.
http://artists.uplaya.com/
I am slowly building a team of people around me that I trust to give constructive feedback on my writing. It is certainly a subjective world, but when you have a team of people that you know will give their honest opinion and only have your growth in mind as a writer, I think it's imperative to get feedback. I have paid for that service also and have found that helpful too, but more and more I work with a team of people to give their thoughts.
If we want to write from our hearts and not do this for a living, forget other's opinions...but if you are seriously pursuing music for a career, you must learn how to craft your songs in way that moves people and many times we need help communicating in a way that people 'get it.'
My 2 cents : )
I play them live at my gigs without telling anyone who wrote the songs them and I gauge the reaction, when I have played them and get a good reaction I eventually announce that it is a self pinned number, and work off that . Keep up the great work derick , peace Martin Kenny .
You know now a days people go with the flow in what they r writing! Even though I've gotten and still get extreme criticism on my songs!!
There are so many ways to write songs. You can just look at something and write a song!!
I ask myself what am I doing here? What am I trying to put across in this song, this section, etc? If I can't answer that question I stop. When I know the answer to that question, I can get the sentiment out. After I get a part out I ask myself is this the best way to get my point across? If not I refine until I decide it's better to stop than continue.
I make game soundtracks for a living and the feedback has, over time, broken my musical ego in a million pieces. You have to be prepared to have something that you just created, be totally rejected. Sometimes it's a tune that you were absolutely sure was beyond incredible. Heck, maybe it was! but it doesn't fit the animation or theme. The bottom line is: Where is your music going to be played and what is it supposed to do? Shake butts? Jerk Tears? Cause Hysteria? In the end, you always have to think of your audience....even if the song is about you and how nobody understands you! You gotta stand back and look at it from different angles and viewpoints. Take nothing personal
for a long time it was mom. then i moved out on my own and haven't been able to find anyone as eager or available as her. . . most recently, ascap songwriter of the year, darrell scott, give me a book by jimmy webb called, "tunesmith". it's really the best book on songwriting i've ever seen, and in it he preaches (quite impressivley) the merits of not playing any new song for anyone before it's done. he warns against the pit-falls of even mentioning that you are in the middle of writing something. i liked it. for me, it had the ring of truth. thanks for asking.
When it's in the beginning stages, I don't want anyone's feedback. The initial inspiration is the most important part.
Once the song takes its form, I'll play it for my small group of musician friends who understand where I'm coming from musically. They'll chime in with arrangement/length ideas, say whether they "get it" or not.
Some songs I'm confident are "right there;" others, I need to be reassured I'm on the right track (e.g. does the "B" section belong in a different song entirely?) Criticism welcome.
And then when everything's pressed and released, I just want people to tell me how great they are!
If someone else gives me an idea I would have to give them credit.
The problem with a helping ear is that everyone has different taste, and very often the advice will not be neutral. Not every song is supposed to have that big chorus, or please everyone.
But what I do from time to time when I get stuck is this. I have a few friends (musicians by the way) who tend to like what I do so I know they won't try to turn my song into something it's not supposed to be. I'll call them and sing a few ideas (capo on the third fret, maybe 5th fret... bridge, no bridge???). When I hear a couple of people say the same thing, I will give it a try and take it from there.
For me personally, it depends on who I'm asking. There are particular friends/musicians whose brutally honest opinion i trust and respect, and I count on them to say, 'dude, I don't think you're even singing in the right range for your voice.'
Unless there's another motive (such as trying to get more listeners/fans) I think going to biased sources such as family & friends is useless, unless one finds it useful to hear, 'great job man, remember me when you're famous...'
I think there are two sources of useful feedback:
1) From people who know where you're coming from musically speaking, who can give constructive, objective feedback
-and-
2) From anonimous/unbiased people who can rate a song in simple terms: (not my style, didn't like, ok, good, love it)...the greater number of people the better. treat it like a case study: if 2 out of 4 people like it, could it just be chance? but it 2,000 out of 4,000 people like it, you just might be onto soemthing!
This is a great topic. Most people write for themselves, which is how it should be foremost. However, if you want mass appeal, you should simply consider how to appeal to as many audiences as possible.
There are some online resources like RedFizz.com and Garageband, but you might be waiting a while for a response and it might not be a very helpful response at that. Plus you have to have it recorded already.
The best way in my experience is to find 2 or 3 musician friends and get together once in a while over a beer, exchange new material, jam, listen. It's fun!
Good feedback is honest feedback, and friends should be comfortable exchanging this if they all have the same desire to appeal to the masses. Also, accept the fact that some songs should just sit on the back-burner, maybe for a while, maybe forever. I've taken songs to my band and they have been rejected, oh well. Good to know they sucked, rather than putting them out there for EVERYONE to know they sucked.
As a writer it's hard to know how songs will come across, because your head is so deep into it. My two cents.
Simple, I put it in the form of a ringtone for the masses to hear, usually free at first, and if it downloads a lot, one can almost judge by the ammount of dls whether it be successful or not. Music can be very subjective and variety of genres is worth the effort. So, experiment with diff sounds.
Thats just me though, Im a newby and as Manuel from FT used to say, I Know Nawthing.
One tip I learned, get to the point with ur song within 12 seconds and dont have long intros.
Cheers !
I upload the songs to MacJams.com and let the community there tell me what they think, taking it all with a grain of salt. Ultimately, if I don't like it, how far's it going to go?
MacJams folks know how to evaluate emotionally as well as technically, so I get a very good read from them. I also base progress on friends and fan feedback.
Again, though, it's gotta resonate within my spirit. And no matter how much someone else may like or dislike a tune - if it's working for me, that's the voice I have to trust.
Aloha -
Bing
Most of the songs I write start out on an online song writing competition, Song Fight!, and the most valuable part of that is the critiquing which goes on in the forum. Most of it is pretty objective, and an even mixture of praise and criticism.
A spinoff, somesongs, is oriented much more towards freeform song commentary, and while that community has been stagnating for a while, the ones who are the most steadfast there are also some of the best music critiquers I've ever seen (although sometimes they can get a little vicious for some peoples' tastes).
I used to have a roommate who was also a writer, he was a total lyric guy and not so strong with chords and melody, me the opposite. So we complimented each other well. I still email him time-to-time.
I'm also planning a songwriters get together, on the Jack Hardy model. Get four writers (preferably who come from very different styles of music) and have them present unfinished work to be constructively criticized by the others. I've done this in other cities and felt it's worked out really well.
But for me, all the work that goes into a song is irrelevant to the way the audience reacts. I vet to decide what of what I'm writing is stage worthy. But until I play it for an audience, I have no sense of whether or not it's good. So I do a lot of open mics to work out newer stuff.
THERE IS SO MENY SONG WRITERS OUT THERE. I RELLY DON'T TRY. I AM A SELF TOUGH MUSICAN AND LOVE PLAYING OTHER PEOPLE MUSIC, OR WITH SOMEONE.I BEEN IN IT SO LONG, I JUST LOVE PLAYING AND SINGING.
I also attended Berklee and have been working as a live musician in Los Angeles. There is a workshop of Berklee Songwriters here once a month which is pretty helpful.
However, the most useful thing I found is to actually play the song live at my regular gigs or an open mic; I usually try the song in a few different venues. Then I get a real idea of what works or doesn't by gauging the audience's reaction. I usually tweak the song at least once or twice before I consider it finished.
I like a mix of feedback--
At open mics and workshops, you get feedback from other songwriters so it can be helpful in technical ways/song form/lyrics/chords, etc. but you don't always get an honest "gut" reaction.
Non-musicians know if they like it or not but can't usually tell you why. The best part is when I play an original at a restaurant mixed in with covers and people ask "who wrote that last song?" Then I know the song is ready...
The songs I've written don't sound alike they r all totally different! Some of my other songs that I have not had arranged yet sound like some of the songs on my cd but not really!! They r all different!!
I write songs that turn on the woman that I love. Those are the songs that come naturally to me. Feedback is a matter of reading body language and then no more than a few simple questions. Starting with something to say can prevent a lot of other revision measures.
Happy writing.
My songs come with lyrics first. That way, I can focus on what I feel needs to be told in order to get the story across as simply as possible. Melodies come later.
I've had my songs (in finished or nearly finished form) critiqued by known (published/recorded) songwriters. One in particular was shot down by several on a panel. This same song was later picked to go on a recording, nationally released, due to it's own uniqueness, both in melody/chord structure and lyrical sense.
It's all subjective. The feedback from that one didn't hurt (anything other than my young songwriter's feelings) and it pleased the artist so much that they didn't even do much in changing the arrangement.
Some folks focus on subject matter (is it clearly understood by everyone who hears it?) and some are caught up in the chord structure and melody (and the lyrics could be about a mashed cat in the road).
I have one on the books to do my first co-write with sometime before too long. I'm looking forward to collaborating with that person, especially since it's my idea, a subject he had wanted to write about and he's already got a killer track record of writing good songs.
We'll feedback each other directly. I think that will be a more productive form of feedback. BTW, this same co-writer/collaborator was on that aforementioned panel (see above).
Limit the number of people one gets feedback from and at the same time make sure it's people one respects. 3 to 4 at the most and optimum 2 to 3. Too many ideas destroys the focus.
One must know what their intent is with the song and through all the feedback stay focused on the intention of the song.
Every great artist, composer, songwriter, singer, sports figure, successful book writer and anyone of great fame and/or impact has or had mentors, teachers and coaches to point out the weak spots. We ALL need feedback of some kind all through our careers, from beginner to advanced.
If the song has a religious or Christian theme, there is a Yahoo group that will take a look at it.
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/CatholicSongwritersForum/
The best art of any kind has to come from the "soul" or basic instincts of the artist. The difference is, some have more talent than others. Either the lyrics, or the melodic hook, really comes through. The melodic hook seems to be the more important thing in producing a "hit"; I never liked to admit that before, because I always start first with an idea about a lyric line. But the song is going NOWHERE without a melodic hook. The only place where lyrics are more important, I think, is in musical theater.
I really believe the more people involved in writing a song or critiquing it, the more contrived it gets, the more confused the songwriter gets, and the magic that sparked the song in the beginning, is greatly at risk of being lost. In fact, for me, if I can't write a song in 1 hour's time, I let the idea go and wait for another. It's all there, very quickly for me, if I've really got something worthy.
I joined a support network in Philadelphia - Philadelphia Area Songwriters Alliance (PASA). Membership consists of songshare events at member homes where new songs are debuted and critiqued. Very supportive non-judgemental crits help members to revise songs.
If I can remember it the next day I feel it's good then playing it out at a festival I watch and listen to feedback from audience
Derek; Great question! All and more is the answer.When I write a song and think it's " done " I play it for close friends, musicians buddies and especially my wife. She is objective and one wrinkled eyebrow is worth a thousand words! Then,if I can get out and incorporate it into my live gigs, I watch people. I watch for their attention, their reactions, bodily movements and the applause. Sometimes I won't say it's my song the first time I play it live. Depends on the situation. With my new CD, although I sell as many as possible, I e-mail out tons of free mp3 versions of select songs and I ask for actual feedback. That works real well!
Bruce
i write songs for a band called ingredients the band. i record a bunch of demos myself and show the band, i gauge how good the song is partly by my original instinct combine with the level on enthusiasm of the band. for me it's about keeping the band's interest in the music, they also help call the songs live. Also the other band members show fans the demos, the fans let me know what they like. after a while i have a better idea of what my guys enjoy and i have increased pressure writing more stuff. I can tell my songs are enjoyable because we play them for years and laugh.
When I have finished composing a song,or piece of music,I will play to a variety of my 'musician friends' who compose/write in many different genres.This way I can gauge a response,or a feeling on the song/piece. However,as one of your bloggers suggested,this can confuse a songwriter even more so.I do feel,all musicians/composers 'Know' when they have written a good song...it's just an initial gut feeling.My favourite reaction is when someone will say to me "your song depressed me a little"I think "Bingo! I got an emotional response".The word 'depressed' does not come across as a negative for me in instances like that. My prime ambition as a composer/songwriter is to make the hairs stand up on the back of the listeners neck.If i can do that...I'm a happy man,and if it makes the hairs stand up on mine...that's even better.
If I am writing a song for a band then i will ask for opinions, thoughts etc from the members but i have never actively asked an audience or member of the public for a song critique. i have learnt not to write songs in stone and to re-assess a song after not hearing it for a few weeks. The two problems as i see it are objectivity on the one hand and finding someone who can see and explain any flaws and improvements on the other.
to what derek said "does that mean your song can't be improved?"
I think they can and do get improved over time, from playing, and also in the recording process. I just think that until they reach a certain point they should be left alone from outside input, to have their own voice.
Did Dylan ask what others thought?
I doubt true songwriters do. If its real for them, and the purpose isnt to appeal to anyone other than there true self..then I dont think other opinions matter, unless the imput relates to what to leave in or out, or a musical decision in relation to dynamics. Writers write.
Since I just write and pitch country and not be the artist now I write the tune put it on songramp.com or songu.com and see what comments are left. Some writers will see something that I've missed.
I've been writing so long now I pretty much can nail the tune pretty close to what will work, Sometimes I use a co writer that can polish what I have. Out of eight I've written last month 4 have been picked up by publishers
in Nashville , there always the upbeat ones. The ballads are a hard sell to the pubs for me
G. F. Mlely, whom I represent, offered this: "For me, the music has to be adventurous. Good lyric writers abound, but true composers are much harder to find in America's songwriting biz. At least surprise me with the chord sequence. How about the lydian instead of the (yawn) ionic scale, for a change. Bring me something that hasn't been done to death - musically speaking."
It may be a lofty idea, but I consider music art.I just slap notes to the canvas in a way that sound's cool to me.I've never done music for anyone else, it's great if someone likes it, but it's not a concern when writing.When it's a collaborative effort it's necessary, but when I'm writing alone I finish it alone with little influence.
Here's my thought, when you do a painting, you stretch canvas, do your work clean off the edges, and then frame and light it.If you have too much outside influence during writing, it's like stretching, framing, and lighting the canvas before you start painting, then you take great care in not getting paint on the frame and light, effectively stifling the art process.Then again many people think I'm crazy.
A singer/songwriter named Rick Barry does a monthly showcase in Asbury Park called Works In Progress, where several musicians play only new or unfinished songs. Great idea. I've been known to bring a song I'm working to an open mic night and get feedback that way, since the crowds at those things are almost always other musicians. There are quite a few songs that I finished but didnt feel were good enough to record or play in public. Some musicians need to learn how to edit themselves; none of us are Mozart and few of us only write great songs.
Well, the few times I've paid for critique I was disappointed. It didn't help me at all. There are certain things you can't or shouldn't change anyways just because one dude in California said so. That's just one point of view. And remember, they are paid to do that. Feedback can be good, but learn to pick out what will really benefit your craft.
too many cooks
and art is not about market research
I work on a piece until I finish...then...I leave it for a week. If, when i come back...I think it's crap...I'll go back in and rework. I repeat the process until I can come back and really like the music and the production.
I never ask my dogs...their advice always sounds like a bunch of barking...and who needs that!
There are so many different genres, and people react so differently to every type. I find it impossible to take criticism seriously. Not only that, a song may work for someone on a particular day at a particular moment, but be borderline offensive another day.
If a song has personality, it will be interesting whatever musical mistakes you've made. But if you're worried about how it will be received, then, the odds are that it's pretty flat and you're hoping someone else sees something worthwhile in it.
Rich #2
Of course, Library of Congress(I really hate them)and BMI registration is paramount!
I forgot, besides the "Ron-test", we put our new songs up on Broadjam where to date we've had almost one thousand reviews....musicians from that site will e-mail each other, back and forth, about a particular song so that's a good thing too!
Derek -
My writing process isn't about anyone's perspective but my own. I don't feel that art should be a democratic process. No one else sees or hears what I see and hear, so no one else is going to come up with what I'm going to come up with. That is what I have to contribute to the culture, not my ability to compile a set of public opinions. I am not a politician, and I object strongly to the creative industry that is largely run in a political manner. We are all individuals, and we should contribute our individualness - not our distillation of what we think someone else wants to hear.
I play in a few other people's groups, and I don't tell them how to write their tunes! Though I'll give positive and constructive feedback if they ask.
I view music and therefore songs as naturally occurring formations, something like crystals. I have written a few in collaboration with poet or musician friends, and some of those are wonderful! But I wouldn't tell my poet friends how to fix their words, unless I was invited to do so - and although there is value to writing workshops, I have never fared well in those either. No one else ever seems to get what it is I'm after...
I don't see "improving" a song as relevant to the capturing of an expression. Would you tell Picasso how to "improve" a painting? Or, not to put myself on a level with Picasso, would you tell the guy drawing with chalk on the street corner how to "improve" his work?
I guess you're free to do that, if you want to, or if he asks. But I would rather hear a creative artist's expression (and we are all creative artists, every living being) of their own movement through the universe than listen to something created by consensus.
That said, everyone should do what feels right to them. I guess I take a little bit of offense at this:
"TO THOSE THAT SAY THEY DON’T SEEK FEEDBACK:
Does that mean your songs can not be improved?
Or that they can be improved, but only you know how to improve it?
Or that others might have great suggestions for improvements, but you just don’t want to hear it?"
...as it implies "we" who don't seek feedback are somehow "wrong" - whereas I could just as well imply that if you DO seek feedback, you are either a sycophantic attention junkie or lack the necessary confidence to create "real" or "meaningful" art on your own ...
But I don't think either of those things has to be true. And it is definitely the case that some of my best work would never have been written if I'd listened to the people around me.
I live and work alone. The only way I can get feedback on a new song is to play it at open-mic nights, which I attend here in Dublin. First I announce that this song is brand new and this is the first time to have it played in public. As I play the song I watch people, foot tapping is a good indication. If I see feet tapping then I feel that the song is working. I also watch faces and can read the attention they are giving or when they look away or begin to talk I know I have lost their attention. I make a mental note at what point they begin to lose interest, this is an indication to me of a weak point in the song. When I finish playing I listen to what people say to me. Comments can range from. "A bit too long". To. "Great song Tarlach." I also use my gut feeling when writing the song. Usually I can tell if it is working or not. Hard to describe this process as it is internal. Easiest way to describe it is to say. "It feels right." Sometimes a song just arrives fully formed, ready to go. All I have to do is play the song a lot and develop my depth of expression, my connection with the emotion in the song. The deeper this connection the better the performance and the better the connection with people listening.
Other songs need a bit more work. To get to the heart of the subject.
Develop a language to express the truth of what I am attempting to say in the song. Live playing is for me the best way to judge the reaction or impact a song has. My goal is to touch the listener and connect with them. If the song does this it is working, if not I usually consider the song in need of more work. Thank you for your interest.
Open Mic nights are good to gauge audience feedback, I perform a combination of shows with my full band and a lot of singer songwriter type solo shows at restaurants and small pubs. I find that the smaller venues are a good gauge for what works. Sprinkle in popular covers with your originals and see how folks related to your songs in the context of you as a presenter/performer of material in general.
I don't buy the Gweneth quote rather I subscribe to the thinking that if you cant present your material in a way that audiences connect with then maybe you need to do more work (allowing of course for understated metaphor that isnt trite, cheezy or obvious or perhaps melodic, harmonic, rhythmic or "hook" considerations).
There is so much to the art of songwriting that there are no magic answers or approaches but it is usually obvious when something works and something doesn't.
My 2 cents for what its worth . . .
This is what I really miss about working in a band context instead of how I'm now working solo. Bandmates can help a lot on honest feedback. Lately I record really rough demos of twice as much material as I'll put on my album & then I said it out to ten friends asking to vote the songs from 1-4 stars.
As with most jazz musicians/composers I write tunes that are mostly very personal and try to tell a story. Sometimes I get too involved in the harmony or an overly complicated melody and the story loses it's clarity. I usually rely on my former teacher and a few close friends to point that out! I also write some tunes with a sale value in mind. These I tend to play on gigs and gauge the audience reaction... deathly silence means something's got to change!
I actually do this for bands. I work as a Musical Director for bands who are writing and creating music. I attend rehearsals, some writing sessions, and other creative sessions. I offer advice on the songs, stage presence... EVERYTHING with a view to either then signing the band myself, or recommending them to other labels and producers.
Foremost it all depends on how strong YOU feel about the tune, but if you want someone's honest, constructive feedback one way is to consider the song as a product to pitch and in doing so know that the mood of the song is better received if it fits the mood of the 'moment' so that it can be better appreciated. i.e don't pitch a laid back song to someone amped up and ready to go out the door for a party or a thrashing high energy song Sunday morning when people are kicked back. Music/art is totally subjective and a mood thing. Might be smart to wait for the right timing to present your ideas...
I live in a built-in critiquing environment since I've played in a trio for over 18 years now with the same two women. Typically, I bring a song in to rehearsal and ask for feedback. Which verse should I keep? Which one should I throw out? Their answer: "keep 'em both." I never thought of that option, so I do. Then I might submit that same song to a contest where the judges give written feedback. Typically, they say, "it needs something to connect verse on with three," so I sit down and write a bridge. When it seems complete to me, we record it.
I've been to the kind of song critiques you described at song writing retreats. Most feedback in those sessions tends to get on the picky side, like, "can't you find an Anglo-Saxon word for that?" And sometimes you just want a Latin-based, multi-syllable word in your song anyway. I don't mind those kinds of critiques, but in the end, the writer is owner and must decide which feedback to use and which to throw away.
Hey Derek,
Love your stimulation.
I'm a member of TAXI so often get a feedback I don't necessarily agree with, but usually find something useful in their critique.
They are well meaning, but are intrinsically tied up with what's happening right now.
I have a good friend who is not afraid to tell me what he sees and hears. We don't always agree, but I have changed lyrics many times with things he has suggested.
Songwriting without a collaborator is an "Ivory Tower" type of experience so it is important to get feedback, but in the end we can't listen to too many voices or it will destroy us. Most often we are our own worse critic...Jack Walker
When it comes to finding out what people thing about a one of my new original songs, I often believe in the trial by fire method. I either record it in my home studio in some semi finished fashion and upload it to a variety of web locations such as the Podsafe Network, or I perform it live at one of my gigs to see what people think. Sometimes I run it by my wife or a friend or two, but usually I like to just put it out there.
This is true of both solo acoustic original songs as well as band type original songs. In the case of the band we work out all the bugs at home the present them live or recorded and basically see what happens. Sometimes if the crowd is a familiar one I will tell them that it is a new original tune so they may pay closer attention. Or if it is a crowd of strangers I will just do it and not say anything to see what the reaction is.
I don’t really want to have people critiquing the songs note by note or line by line because anyone can take any tune no matter how great and rip it apart when they look at it in detail. Most people don’t really pay that close attention to the minutia of a song, they just listen to the whole package. And that is what I offer them. It is a pass/fail kind of thing. They either like it or they don’t. Often I do this with several different audiences to see how each will react. You can also get different reactions from the same type of crowd to the same song depending upon the mood of the audience on a given night. So the more the merrier.
Any songwriting critique-circles, previously successful songwriters who have found a place in the biz, and generally anyone who fosters 'competition' among songwriters are the reason(s) for the TERRIBLE songwriting amongst pop/rock/country today. If it were up to the hacks on Music Row, for example, Visions of Johanna would have never been written.
I use a real-time audio collaboration plug-in called Virtual Glass to do real time writing/music critique with music partners anywhere in the world! The plug-in is free and works with all music software applications that support plug-ins. Mac only as of now, but Win version forthcoming. Download here:
Virtual Glass Plug-in (RTAS, AU, VST):
https://www.esession.com/virtualglassdownload/VirtualGlassInstaller.pkg.zip
I use a number of ways to get feedback on pieces that I am writing. I belong to a couple of forums where we discuss each others music and styles in general. These places do have there "yes" guys who seem to like everything that everyone presents but there are those few (and some with excellent credentials, I might add) that genuinely listen and give much needed response to what one is trying to accomplish.
I also bounce things of close friends and relatives who are also in the music business. Some offer great insights and ideas to help move the creation process along. Some are college professors and others are just good listeners.
I ask my family, and friends who I used to gig with, and try them out with an English publisher I deal with. I write country songs mainly.
The comments have been good mostly.
Any negative remarks and I rewrite the song.
Everybody is a critic, everybody has something to say. What I look for is what each critique offers. Even when approaching "friends" I will NOT say "so what do you think" with a smile on my face. I will say "tell me what you didn't like about it", then see what their reaction is. Art is subjective, but music composition does have some hard and fast rules when you looking to broaden your market.
When I started out I played my songs for everyone and anyone who would listen. I usually got very positive feedback. But sometimes not. Then more and more I found that people would make criticisms based on some personal agenda or misunderstanding or narrow scope. And it was rare that it helped me in any way. How would anyone else know what I'm trying to accomplish?
These days once I consider a song "finished" I take it to the clubs. I still basically play for everyone and anyone who will listen. But the difference these days is that I don't really look for, or even want, anyone's critique. It's not that I'm above criticism or praise. It's more that once I get a song to where I like it, why would I need someone else to validate it for me.
Having said all that, I admit that it sure feels good to get that big applause. And it hurts when someone tears it apart (or worse, ignores it).
But I think we have enough cookie cutter commodities in our faces every day. I'm aiming for something that's me - uniquely imperfect.........
I also went to berklee and I feel fortunate having met so many different musicians there that I have a lot of different ears that I can play new ideas for. I also think about what different teachers have told me. Hal Crook recommends to always record yourself and listen back. I always try to record myself practicing or performing, This I find is especially helpful during rehearsals to hear how new material sounds. I'm also constantly thinking of how I want the music to sound. It always sounds one way when I write it and totally different when I put it in front of a band. Sometimes I have to change the orchestration to see what works best. Lately I've been trying to write a bunch of ideas and then come back to them later with a new perspective on it. I have tons of unfinished songs that I didn't finish yet, because I haven't heard a new way to work with the material. I'm also very critical about what I put out for people to hear, I want to make sure that I like it and if I enjoy than I hope other people will to.
The more songs I write, the less I care about other people's opinions. I'm usually writing and recording at the same time which makes it possible to listen to the song over and over again afterwards. If it gets me hooked then it's a good one, if it won't let me go the next few days then it's a great one and if I want to turn it off, it's just not the right time for it or I have to make some improvements. The songs that are still grabbing my attention months later are usually the ones that make it onto an album or a liveshow.
Personally I don't think much of "professional" feedback. As was said before, it's much too subjective to decide whether or not you like a song. If you want to learn how to write a hit single, then maybe that might help. But even in that case I tend to believe that the REALLY good ones lasting forever aren't written with the help of some formular but rather out of some special magical moment.
It's the "High Fidelity" philosophy
from the movie
someone says "Yeah this is a great song."
then you say "I know."
After writing songs for a long time, (which were more for me than anyone else), I started buying songwriting books; at least 4 from Berkeley College of Music and others. What a mass of confusion.
One book would say don't rhyme your words, blah and more blah. So I went on a quest to start writing songs that were each different. (some rhymed some didn't, and on and on). I would send a song out to be looked at, and it would get trashed apart.
Then I slopped something together in a few minutes and submitted it to makeastar.com (many years ago) and they said it got chosen 16 out of 8000 to be submitted for their competition, that I didn't win. (dahhh?, I even played the song out of time and it at least got picked for the competition!!).
Then I got to meet the author of one of the songwriting books I had in San Diego folk alliance(@4 years ago) John Braheny (same year I met Derrick) and he gave me the best advice ever" "Write from your heart and you can't go wrong".
So I don't really care what others think of my songs. I write them for myself first, and what I have found is that some songs that I don't think are good people purchase more than anything.
I would rather spend my time writing 20 songs than rehashing one song over and over with a person that wants to change everything with it. Its like submitting your dreams to someone for critique. (its MY dream NOT yours!)
My advice would be to write as many songs as you can and don't spend a ton of time on one song; then play them for your audience they will let you know what they like, and they usually don't say anything about what they don't like.
Most of the songwriters that I have seen "make it" (whatever that means) wrote at least 250-500 songs before they found their own way, they didn't submit their songs to anyone, why should we?
I normally play a new song to a musician friend just before the final polishing stage just to get an initial reaction - I find the song often comes out different at this point, and gives me an idea of what I still need to work on. I recently played a showcase to an A&R agency and received detailed feedback on the songs. Getting impartial criticism is invaluable. I didn't like everything they said at first, but once I put aside my ego I realised there were areas of my songwriting that could still be improved. This is the only way to learn!
There's a phenomenon my colleagues and I call Song High, under the influence of which I think every song is brilliant for approximately 2 weeks after I write it. Only after Song High subsides can I hope to get any objectivity about a tune.
In the 80s I was one of the founders of a forum in New York called Song Party. We considered ourselves to be "lifers" as opposed to what we called Sunday Songwriters. It was an incredible support group, and I really recommend starting such groups with like-minded souls. We met every 2 weeks for 4 years. That plus a slew of classes, workshops, industry events, etc. gave me many brutal reality checks. I also had a great mentor, Doc Pomus.
These days I rely on a few trusted friends, colleagues and co-writers... and of course the business folks we submit material to constantly. If I don't hear "OHMYGAWD THIS IS THE GREATEST SONG I'VE EVER HEARD" then I might as well toss it out, because no one wants an album cut. They only want one-listen frying-pan-over-the-head hit singles! And if I'm really lucky have a few more of those in me...
Thoughts about songwriting:
I like to play songs I write for new ears to get feedback. Also,
the advantage to playing in a band includes instant feedback from the other players. I never force a tune into the group's repertoire. I trust the people I play with and if a song agrees with everyone, it usually has a place on stage in front of the audience. The trick hear is knowing when to let a song die, or just knowing the song was not meant for that moment or that specific application.
Peace and Pretzels,
Maury R. (Hypnotic Clambake's Accordionist)
well I studied Music in college and Loved the opprtunity about college that you have The ability to Council with The music instructors and Proffesors...Especially about Musical form and key!
When it comet to writing in Key I Try to Stick to the Rules aware you can Break a Rule for a good Recording!
the lyrics I write first..second i Begin By finding other musical Works and Studing how they have written...
comparing my ideas and finally I both Compose and Re-compose my lyrics to harmonize With The Sounds..do the Very Best I Can with My voice...when it is Well rehersed I perform and seek audience Feedback..as a solo Act it is diffrent then when I perform with a Band...when People Buy CD's it Tells Me I am doing Something right!
People do not all use computers in The Bar..and where they do use computers they don't neccesarilly buy on the Computer...I use the computer for exposure for those whom might seek to Listen To My music more than once
I have written literally hundreds of songs over the years. When I was younger, I would play them for friends and relatives and give out tapes. Sometimes I would get to perform and could gauge audience reaction. I don't seek much feedback anymore. I have my recording partner, who gives good feedback and sometimes co-writes with me. Usually, with my technical experience at crafting structure and lyrics together, a song's impact is more dependent on how strongly I felt about writing it than anything else. I think that was true, even before I had this much behind me. If you feel it, craft it tightly, and people will sense the authenticity.
Hmm. Good question Derek. In regards to "feedback" I have one friend I count on, he won't sugar coat something if it's WACK. Granted ONE person telling you "the work is great" or "That stinks" is not the smartest thing right now I am trying to find younger people (cousins in their teens/early college) for my focus group...when I am looking to aim "that music at that audience"
Derek,
I generally keep it to myself but would love to find other songwriters interested in critique and discussion. I've thought about joining songwriting groups but can't seem to commit. So, my music will generally get road tested at shows and that's it. I guess I'm judge, jury, and progenitor.
I started writing songs for self expression, personal release or for telling a story about something that was important to me or others. I have always been very cautious and particular about how a tell the story. The little things are important. For example, I don't follow any traditional song structure or pattern. This is my story, my song, I am going to create it the way I hear it. I don't normally listen to criticism, I am not writing for others so much or for making hit songs. This is my art and vision I am sharing with you. I do it for the freedom or creation and having something that has not been tampered with.
If you have to ask if it's a good song, than it isn't.
Yo Mr Sivers I give a totally uncontrolled rendishion of the Maddness of the song to any one in range if I ever see them again if they in the few second's they are trying to escape sing a line or two my job is Done.
There's a small group of friends/peers that I may show a song in progress, but for the most part, I do it more for the response that the song gets.
I may use the criticism that I get for future reference, moreso than going back to rewrite or restructure the song in question.
I agree with some of the previous posts that music is very subjective and you're never going to please everyone out there, so pleasing yourself artistically is the priority.
My wife is my biggest "critic". Since she's been with me for 36 years and is the first to hear every song I write. I get her feedback, whether I want it or not, but her initial reaction has historically been a good indicator.
I am a member of a local songwriting group and we meet monthly to share new songs and provide/receive feedback. This is helpful as a peer review, though the critique is very informal and subjective. So I sometimes self-assess my songs with checklists developed by professionals - which provides great guidance.
I use Open Mics to get a broader audience reaction to new songs and also to practice the delivery and perfect the song as I get a better feel for the flow of the lyrics and music by doing it in front of a live audience. I watch people's faces. Is the song interesting? Am I holding their attention? Can they understand the lyrics? I often change melodies and lyrics after performing them a few times to improve the flow (singability and playability).
Recording the song and listenening to it as I drive helps me identify parts that need work. Letting friends listen to the recording and soliciting feedback helps as well.
I've gone the route of paid critiques, but I find that these tend to be focused on objectives that may or may not be mine. If you are looking to write a "hit" song then a professional paid critique is appropriate but can also be a real eye-opener.
Dear Derek,
Thank you for remembering me and asking to visit your website to leave my thoughts.
For all you song writers out there, when you compose or write a song; make sure you circle around 3 to 4 chords. Let your melody be simple (easy to remember) and catchy.
Ask whoever you can for their opinion on your song, and see how
often they sing it or hum it when you're around them. The more they sing it -- the more they love it.
Keep your arrangements simple and
dynamically tight. Ideally, it's best to have musicians in your band
who know what to do and don't have to be told. They should add to your music, unless you want some specific arrangements etc.,
Take the world's most famous songs
and spend time researching it and find out for yourself, what made them what they are today.
DON'T copy other musicians, but use them as an inspiration to better your musical skills.
Your lyrics should be from your heart and write about what you
want to say to the world. Make a statement, whether people think it is bizarre or silly. WRITE IT! AND SING IT! But for heavens sake, avoid bad language and such like
negative emotions.
Take risks, cause if you don't,
you won't get anywhere. I am not a religious person, but this is true:
I get my inspiration from Jesus. He is my Lord and Savior and if
you want to do extraordinary things, JESUS is the way, the truth and the life. Get Jesus into your life, he will do awesome things for you and all who you
pray for.
Just pray this prayer and you will
experience the BEST LIFE EVER:
"Lord Jesus, I invite you into my heart anew today, and I ask forgiveness for all of my sin. I repent for all my sins and I will not sin again. Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins and for forgiving me of them through your shed blood for me on the cross.
Please take away all the sinful "old things" in my heart that defile me, and replace them with the "good things" that you desire to grow in to my life. Please wash away all the sinful crud and tendencies toward evil and replace them with a hunger and thirst for your righteousness.
I need your help, Lord God, in living this new life in Christ.
Please send your Holy Spirit afresh into my life to help me, heal me, deliver me, lead me and transform me.
In Jesus Christ I pray, Amen." Get a bible and read these verses below:
(Mark 7:21-23 & 2 Corinthians 5:17)
NOW WATCH THE CHANGE, YOU WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN.
God Bless You All,
Best Regards,
Sajjid Manuel
When in doubt, wear it out. I've learned after 33 years when a song's not done. Now it's learning when it is and not fooling with it anymore.
I'm also with KG, getting someone else to sing your song is a great idea! However, here's something interesting......if they can't sing it, you've created a singular style, a niche, which is where artists want to be if they're going to promote to an industry that refuses to let us do what we want and run all over the place, try everything. Now it's about how easily it can be packaged, not how innovative or eclectic we can be. If we want to sell bucketsful of CDs anyway.
I was a member of Taxi for a couple of years and picked up some solid friendships, some wickedly good cowriters and a better knowledge of the industry, for better or worse. It's a business, alright. :p That doesn't mean we can't forge ahead and do what we want though and with clever marketing, we can do a lot to get our albums and songs out there.
Hey Derek ... cool meeting you at Folk Alliance. I constantly re-write songs to try to make them better, sometimes even after recording them & putting them out on an album or CD. With a new song, I play it a lot, both to remember it & look for spots it's weak and for ways to make it have more impact, or to spot cool new parts or melodies, & even to make it shorter where I can. I take new songs to open mics to get feedback. I don't trust my friends patting me on the back type opinions - instead I look for the in the moment audience reaction to the song - are they smiling, tapping their toes, laughing, paying attention, connecting. I don't think there is any substitution for playing a new song as many times as you can until you get it the way you want.
I am a CPA by profession. I love writing songs and playing and singing in my studio and hope to get a sonwriting contract at some point. What I do is upload my song to my website and send a link to everyone in my contacts list. That is about 300+ people. So, it is not only family and friends it includes clients many who never knew I was a musician. I ask for feedback either by email or in my guestbook. Broadjam is another avenue but the critiques are not from the most experienced musicians so they aren't much help. They usually say whether they like the song or not and don't very often provide real meaningful feedback.
After I do a rough demo, I generally send a new song to a handful of friends who are always very honest with me. I find there are VERY few people in this world, professional music people included, that can hear an unproduced song and see past the lack of production to critique the actual writing. The friends I send my stuff to are somewhat compromised in that area as well, but have learned how to listen for the value of the song itself. One gets hung up on tone and finds little value in songs that are not in his finite list of styles he likes, another tends to fall in love with the first thing he hears (if it's good) and hates revisions, another is a lyric freak. So the feedback I get is varied. Therefore I take it all in, think about what each says, decide what needs to fixed and what was a personal opinion that few people will share, and proceed to rip apart my song and fix what's fixable. The key things for me are:
1) view all critiques as constructive, even if you don't like them
2) don't take it personally
3) don't be so in love with any aspect of a song that you can't see changing it
4) realize that a song often starts out as one thing and ends as another (e.g. one song I wrote started out as a sort Beatles "Two of Us" groove that begged for a 12-string, but ended up much slower with a percussive 6-str plucking style - the Beatle thing didn't work)
5) be willing to analyze constructive critiques and accept what makes sense, and throw away what doesn't
6) understand that nobody has in their head what you do when you write the song - including imaginary arrangements to be added someday.
Playing a song for a general audience tells me NOTHING, unless the song is finalized and completely produced, since most people can't see past bells and whistles. Am I just being cynical? Well, look at how many people eat McDonald's hamburgers regularly. (No offense to the McDonalds lovers - different strokes for different folks - that's just the e.g. I usually use).
Songwriting is a natural flow of the expression of emotion in the moment. As such it must be a Zen experience. Two scenarios result from this. Either I'll write a song in totality recording it and writing it in the same instant(this is rare but when it happens it is oh so powerful). Or I'll get the first verse and chorus right away and then know that I have the tail end of the song which means all I have to do is reach in and there is the whole thing.
If you second guess a song you've lost your momentum and anything that you come up with will be contrived.
If you rely on others for their opinions then you are asking to be second guessed on a song and in that case too it will be contrived.
You should always strive for a pure expression which means trust yourself. If you can't do this stop writing until you can. There is really no other way around it.
I'm very picky about who hears my unfinished stuff. A lot of people will always tell you you're great - which doesn't help. Even if you are great, you can be better. I have a few friends I can count on to be brutally honest and it's always good to hear that feedback/criticism. There is something to be said about writing for yourself first. However, it's tough to stick to what you know but still grow as an artist. Having someone around to tell you if that song sounds the same as the other, or you tried WAAY to hard to change it up, is priceless.
When I have finished composing a song,or piece of music,I will play to a variety of my 'musician friends' who compose/write in many different genres.This way I can gauge a response,or a feeling on the song/piece.
My partner has to be my best critic,as she has a very wide taste in music and is often brutally honest when I ask her opinions.
However,as one of your bloggers suggested,this can confuse a songwriter even more so.I do feel,all musicians/composers 'Know' when they have written a good song...it's just an initial gut feeling.My favourite reaction is when someone will say to me "your song depressed me a little"I think "Bingo! I got an emotional response".The word 'depressed' does not come across as a negative for me in instances like that. My prime ambition as a composer/songwriter is to make the hairs stand up on the back of the listeners neck.If i can do that...I'm a happy man,and if it makes the hairs stand up on mine...that's even better.
I have almost never had a song co-writer. Generally I bring my songs to the band. If they are into them we start arranging them and then play them live. I count on my bandmates' critique to strenghthen the material i.e. adjust tempo or feel......Have done a few songs at gigs once or twice and then never played them again just cause I thought that they didn't work. Would love to try writing with someone else more often.
By the time anyone hears one of my songs it's done. I make music because it's a form of art and I guess, expression. If someone were to offer me ways to "improve" a song it wouldn't be my true piece of work any longer. Nothing wrong with collaborating it's just not the route I take. As for feedback, when I play my songs for people and they don't leave it means they like them.
I've had a few "experts" critique my stuff and they always nitpick. They never buy an album or support an artist like me so I tend to listen to the folks who actually pay me for my music, which is just regular folks who like what they like without someone telling them to like it.
Thank you...J.C.
Those Berklee songwriting classes were awesome!
I now write most of my songs for young children. I get to test out and fine tune my material in classrooms all over the Boston area-what a luxury! That audience response is essential. My wife and teenage boys are brutally honest as well, and won't hesitate to point out a line that seems forced or lackluster. I record and listen to my songs over and over, try to be honest with myself, and get those songs to the point where I want to hear them again and again.
I also like what Mr. Pike wrote. He's writing to please himself.
Mr. Litwin has a great idea. Let's get a reply from Paul McCartney, please.
Thanks Derek,
for bringing up the subject. I think it is essential, considering how many work alone these days, and how few of us has a producer.
I use garageband.com - You'll never get a more honest feedback than from a musician with "blindfolds", listening to a band or artist of whom he or she know nothing, other than the chosen genre..
But I've often though we should have several changes to prove our song to this community, by improve and remix, try it in another genre and so forth, 'cause I'd like to hear the continuance of the ongoing process from demo to sale. That's entertainment for me!
Basically we never know what is going to hit. The most naive and simple songs might be recognized as genuine and 'true' by the most people, while songs we've spend hours fixing minor details on, people might not even care about.
Generally my friends - the real ones, tell me straight, and most often those are the songs which work best acoustic about the fire. I totally agree!
What about you Sivers.. guess I've only heard your music in a lousy youtube-video.. Where do I go to listen?
from Copenhagen
S i g v e <3
When I first started recording my stuff, I used to show people to hear how good it was. But, honestly people would usually just give me constructive criticism but that used to irritate me so much!!! But now getting more experience I found the importance of getting feedback before finalizing anything. What I usually do is Show people my idea first and ask them what they think of the general idea and ask if they have any suggestions, then after I start recording I will bring in my very close producer friends of mine to give me advice or a simple thumbs up. Last when I think its almost done I will show it to people who know nothing about songwriting techniques or production and ask them to tell me what they think. This usually will get me a great mix, song, sound,,,,,Well all of the above. LOL!!! But feedback is so important professional and non.
my current situation is that im basically recording these songs for myself.
I moved from my hometown in Scotland almost a year ago,to Texas
.Which of course meant that i could no longer play in any of the bands i was in,
or record with them anymore.
So i do my music when i can at home,ultimately with a view to possibly having an albums worth of great songs. If i can afford to have some pressed,
id maybe send some to CDBbay as i did with my old band
Just Another Dream.
when i upload a song to MySpace,
i send out a bulletin that i have.
If i get ONE reply or comment about it, thats a surprise.i dont know if people are too busy with their own things or whatever, but i find it extremely difficult indeed to even get some kind of opinion,good,bad or indifferent.Even getting a reply from friends i email songs to is nigh on impossible it seems,and i have no idea why.
Friends will of course generally just say they like it, and offer no further comment.
so its impossible to take anything from that anyway.
i would LOVE to have people hear,and hopefully enjoy my songs, but i just cant seem to do it. I have music on MySpace/Facebook/Soundclick/Bebo/Soinic Jive etc etc,to no avail.
and to be perfectlly honest,
its really very very disheartening indeed.
not to mention incredibly frustrating,
Hello.
I've had great success from Matt Angel at the Songwriters Guild in Nashville. He hooked me up with a publisher in just a few weeks after evaluating my songs and working closely with me.
I really can't say enough about their services, and I've used NSAI, Tunesmith all of those places.
You won't regret checking it out.
I don't ask for feedback on songs as such as I find the songwriting process so personal, mysterious and instinctive that I don't want to analyse it myself that much let alone get others making me over think it. What I do get feedback on is recordings/mixes of songs as that is to me a much more analytical thing that I welcome feedback on from friends, other musicians, punters that I know well enough to know they will be honest with feedback.
Sometimes I let a few people hear pre-release mixes of songs that are basically finished, but it's more "sharing" than looking for critiques. I pretty much know by know what I like and don't like, and I'm out to please myself first and everyone else second. When you solicit a boatload of opinions, those commenting often contradict one other and get you so confused and caught up in second-guessing yourself that it can be very counterproductive.
I'm not all that interested in putting out stuff that has been groomed for maximum mass appeal by a panel of advisors. I think American Idol is a good example of how generic and "cookie cutter" music can become when you take an overly deliberate and market-driven approach to it.
I almost totally write the songs myself...I do no go to anyone for feedback....the only feedback is unsolicited but accepted. In my career I had other members of the band give me a tip which worked well but at what point do you have to give them credit as writer of the song in mention. Finally feedback is only as good as the feedback which is given.
The most important thing i can share with other writers is to remember the song has to be the star of the moment. Songs that people sing for tryouts are most hit songs.Great songs create great artist.
While work shops can be good, they call also be very disruptive to the creative flow of energy that an artist needs to perform the song soulfully. I think that it is up to the song writer(s) to get the song down like they hear and feel it. Let the other guys write their own songs while they are at the work shop. If they we're playing and working on the road, they wouldn't have time to be at a workshop. I find a lot of people at work shops are wantabes who are looking for a hussle.
Songwriting is art. If you like it then it's you. Alter it and it becomes something else...perhaps more commercial crap chasing a trend.
I will preform it live to see audience reaction to it, I will have people who I value their opinion comment on it and make the necessary changes, the most important after I did all of that I will not listen or do anything with the song for a week to two weeks and than I will listen to it again if I like it still than something is happening
I wait in line at a quicky mart and then write on a napkin. When the clerk gives me my change I then count it and see how many multiples of seven I can think of backwards till the clerk asks me whats wrong or the person behind me to kindly move so that she can check out.
That and songwriter nights with friends, but really I try to write different every time I write something new. Sometimes it comes into my head before I pull out the guitar, but normally the guitar is out and then reflection. I'm quite open about it, but it pisses some songwriters off that my songwriting is never the same twice purposefully. Not certain if its because they want to follow, or what, but it does make for interesting nights.
~Pete
If I'm co writing with someone else or even a band, it's a democratic process and everybody contributes.
But very often I work very quick when I have an idea. Sometimes it is recorded directly and finished in very short time. I love to be in the flow and trust that the music develops the best and strongest way. If I stop at that point and step back I sometimes loose the spark.
From all the comments I read I see that there are many different ways to create a song. I'd never expect anybody to do it my way, and I would never want to have do it like somebody else.
I have lately tried presenting a few new songs at the Uptown Salon: http://uptownsalon.blogspot.com
I play it for friends, then play it on the gig. After that I take it to a song pitch and see what reaction I get, then I address and problems that I've identified and start the process again
Holy posting in here.
Hey, let's everyone buy each others music.
I think we are the only ones who care anyway.
I've done a little of everything.
1. Recently started attending a songwriters workshop/roundtable
2. If I really love it, I just play it at a gig and feel out the room on the go a few times, I can usually tell if it lands or not.
3. I play it for close friends and gauge the level of praise.
I'm not at a point in my songwriting career where I'm looking to craft a radio-worthy/sell-able song, so I just try to make sure that my songs are as true to their message and vibe as they wanted to be when I first started writing them. I do the same with my prose writing. Not a lot of edits in my neck of the woods. The feedback that I get from the song circle that is most helpful is the kind that seems to be supporting my drive to give the song its fullest life and least-cloaked message. That's a little cryptic, perhaps, but for me, songwriting is soul poetry. If that's served, I'm happy.
Thanks for the question and invitation to answer!
Heather Marie Philipp
I really like this interactive format and good thought provoking ideas. Thanks Derek.
My primary feed back comes from family and other writer / musicians. If I like it, and they like it, we play it.
I don't write songs to "suceed". The artistic process stands on it's own. I'd say that 1 in 6 of my songs passes my own critique.
It's an internal evaluation that tells me when a song is good, and one that I want to own.
This is not to say that I don't try to learn from other song writers. For example I'm trying to understand / use the very effective way in which John Prine incorporates long silences in his lyric phrasing.
I usually play a new song for my husband, a pianist... I trust his judgement. He is very critical and usually points out everything he doesn't like about a song...
I believe in rewriting and perfecting songs a lot, so try to work on them. Then, if I like what I wrote I play it for my family and eventually enter it on ourstage.com to see how it would do... But also I sometimes miss the inspiration and constructive criticism that these workshops and the Berklee environment provide.
Right now I am collaborating with a friend. we bounce ideas off one another. In the past I would use collaboration sites. also Taxi forums is a good place to play for feedback.
i mainly trust my own judgement and that of my wife who often co-writes with me. if i'm really excited about a track i'm working on then i have i pretty good idea that it's a good tune. if i find myself humming the melody or it's stuck in my head for days... this is also a good indicator. sometime i may think that this songs sounds really pop to me and i wonder if it's too pop and not indie sounding enough... i may play it for a close friend in our music scene to get their vibe on it. i have found that even in underground and indie circles songs can almost never be too pop!
Over the years I've learned one lesson: "listen to the judge within yourself". My most sold songs were NOT the ones that others commented on, the ones I altered because others said so, no, they were the ones I chose.
Let your heart decide what is really good and what is not. Take full responsibility for your choice and in the end there's only one winner or loser and that's you...
Just to add to my previous post, I do create alternate versions and "modernize" older songs of mine. Sometimes a song is fully born. Sometimes it evolves. Sometimes, it just needs to die. And I am my harshest critic. But I have received a lot of feedback over the years to develop that self critical sense.
generally play new songs for my wife....then, often regardless of the nature of the feedback received, i play it at a show.....i pretty much know fairly quickly how it has been received by the audience.....after that, it's up to me whether i like it or not, and sometimes, even if the feedback from the audience is discouraging, i keep playing it, because i am stubborn, and i know what i like
Balance between practicality and receptivity. If you followed up on everyone's advice you'd never finish a song. Ask for criticism and you'll get it. I've been told many times and directly by the truly accomplished: opinions are like assholes -- everyone's got one! Not to be disrespectful, and a little crass. But you must respect YOURSELF as well -- your GIFT and INSPIRATION -- so as not to eternally expose yourself to overwhelming and meaningless feedback. Just time lost.
People are different. Their hearts, brains and experiences are different. We process thought, imagery and emotions differently -- and use language accordingly. Your song is SURELY not for everybody! Impossible. Your drive will tell you whether you have something to say. Then you must nurture the skills that take you to the core of things. After all, you probably still want to hit "universals" that have a chance at touching many. And maybe earning some food for your table?
I'm good with language and lean verbose. So I've had to practice for years at grabbing that kernel of thought. I like the song form for that reason. It's limited by nature and its focus has spared me from novel-writing. I'm grateful. I can learn to say great things succinctly. Thank God! There is hope . . .
For years I took songwriting classes and willingly "subjected" myself to mass-scrutiny. It was good. I learned much and was well-received. I'm a good writer. I did NOT begrudge the lessons and am better today for it. But I'm not young now, and I'm driven and prolific as ever. This is my life's greatest gift and I intend to make good. I'm at the top of my game just about now. I no longer run around asking for opinions. I'd certainly still reflect on serious comments from a respected mentor. I have "become one" with that Great Editor and am completely amazed at this LIVING PROCESS each time I work in my studio. I write/sing/produce my original material now -- slowly, meticulously -- and the rewrites and finessing come magically with the marriage of the music, etc. I literally never know in advance exactly how my production will evolve! It's exciting. And I certainly don't lack structure or creativity. I ooze it. Yet THE PROCESS is certainly beyond who I am and I am privileged to step beyond myself for this interaction. Years of study improve my natural expression and I am left with awe at this process. It is indeed mystical, and we cooperate. Of course, I speak for myself. And mine is a strong observation.
So be honest. Have you done your homework? Have you embraced your own arrogance just to comfort-zone? We used to call it GETTING YOUR ROCKS OFF in Los Angeles songwriting classes. Just how serious an artist are you? Do you want to hone your skills, or do you just like attention? Know yourself. YOU decide how far you want to go with this. At least in dedication. Then there's exposure. Then THE PUBLIC decides, I guess. I'm still workin' on that . . . ENJOY your GIFT, and GOOD LUCK!!!
I used to be concerned with feedback, playing for my dad, my brothers, my husband.... the things I learned are: 1. It is very difficult for most people, even other musicians, to hear quite what you hear when a song is in its birthing stage and 2. The songs that have less 'obvious' appeal are often times the songs with the most personality and the stronger ability to speak to people. I can't pretend like I'm not affected by feedback because I am. To the point of paralyzing my creative process if I receive it midway through writing. So I continue to write, for nobody but myself, and when I have a "good" song, I know it, and at that point I accept all feedback and usually don't change a thing.
When I finish writing a song it begins with my satisfaction.By then I have perhaps played that songs at minimum of 25-75 times to get it where I am happy with it.(I am my biggest critique).However, I then pass this song on to my family members and then best friends to get their feedback.
Often enough some disagree with me or with each other on it being a hit.But the funny thing is a songwriter in his right mind doesn't think of writing poor material we all strive in writing that next big hit song.
I have had some good songs some have even made alittle money for me.But I'm still working hard in digging deeper within myself to find that next big hit.
Mannyman
President and CEO
RhythmQwest.com
I do not ask for feedback.
I have one creative partner and we work together. We put a lot of work into the song before I share it in public. I listen and listen to it as if someone else wrote it. If any element of the song makes me uncomfortable, it means it is not ready. When I am happy with it, then, it is ready.
The process of feedback can be detrimental, especially to new writers.
If you must have feedback, talk to another creative person whom you love and trust, who loves and respects your work and sees your potential, so that you can have a strong foundation from which to transform your work into something you like. If you ask such person, then you will need to listen and not take it personally.
It's gotta get past me, first. I'm a ruthless editor! Since I'm doing the classical thing, I show it - in virtually finished form - to successful composers and musicians of a similar mind. I next try the material out by letting various area groups perform it, before sending it out to national groups and publishers.
generally,i will wait for an acoustic show,rather than a full band show, and let the listeners know it is new. if i get positive feedback, i will usually work it into a full band show. if i don't get any feedback i either trash it or do some rewriting.
Would a painter ask for "feedback" on a recently finished painting and then add a few colors ? I see the compositions as pretty much finished once they are written . If I perform them with a group , sometimes the members will suggest alterations which can be helpful. My wife hears everything first , but she always says nice things so that isn't much help . If I like something I have written , no-one can tell me otherwise usually ..
The best experience I've had was in the BMI/Lehman Engel Musical Theatre Workshop in NYC. Songs were critiqued by peers and a moderator, many professionals, with a focus on craft.
There's a similar program in Los Angeles, Academy for New Musical Theatre.
Key for such a thing to work is that it be both supportive and critical. Also key is that the quality of the work be at a sufficient level to spur healthy competition, to inspire to impress.
For non-theater songwriting, I haven't found a comparable operation, but I'm still looking.
I realize that not everyone has the luxury of access to all of these, so I'll list as many ways as I have tried. 1) Ask song writer friends who have had chart success to critique. 2) Play the song out live a lot - get crowd reaction. 3) Submit it in contests. 4) Submit it for reviews in press and media (including local radio). 5) Study other well crafted songs and compare (will reveal "settled for a rhyme" lyrics, rushed arrangements, musical ineptitude, etc.) 6) If you feel that it requires more than one competent instrumentalist to perform and move a listener, then the song is what is lacking, not the instrumentation. 7) If you won't allow yourself to be edited for the better by those are better, then the "emperor's new clothes"... 8) Get many opinions (girlfriends/boyfriends, parents, teachers, musicians and non-musicians). 9) Never quit trying to improve the song (and write a lot of songs). 10) Co-write with good writers who can improve the song and you if they offer help.
i usually make a loop and send it thru email to several people. I conglomerate everyone's response as attune to there PC speakers. lol
I've worked for 30+ years as a producer/composer/arranger, arranged many hits and had my songs recorded by Ray Charles, Deniece Williams and others.
I teach my own course,Professional Songwriting, and group feedback is very important. Unfortunately few writers starting out have the opportunity to get the audience reaction of live work. I stress that if a person wants to become a PROFESSIONAL songwriter, personal expression should only be only one element on a long list of other priorities.
First I stress the value of detailed analysis of great songwriters work - "imitate, assimilate, innovate".
I have also developed over the years something I call my ELEVEN POINT PLAN - a specific methodology that will guarantee, if not a HIT song, a EFFECTIVE song that will get a positive listener response. The plan is designed to get over the most detrimental aspect of songwriting: the near impossibility of being OBJECTIVE. The PLAN brings the objectivity of the intellect into the room to have a chat with your emotions. This gets songwriters away from amateurish, purely intuitive processes of songwriting. Writing effective songs is no longer a 'happy accident' or a matter of waiting for a 'muse'. If this sounds unromantic I would add that my results have been very successful!
I follow the KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid) approach. As a kid I would listen to all the hits and I modeled my approach towards that. What is funny is that my producer,Leroy Miller of Smashmouth, has worked with some of those people. I always look for constructive critism and I have a great band with a good group of musicians and when I bring something to the table, we analyze it and work out some dynamics and hooks.
Here is my method:
1. I make sure the song has a good groove, wether its a ballad or rock song
2. I ask my peers what they think of it and what suggestions they have.
3. Dynamics, Dynamics, Dynamics.
I make sure the song has some catchy spots and hooks, can't live without a hook.
4. I am fortunate to have worked with some of the best in the business and I send them demos for feedback. Critism will only make you better, don't send to any YES PEOPLE.
5. Remember, don't try to do too much. Take the Neil Young method and just write the song and it will work itself out. Like my producer Leroy Miller says, "It's what you don't do, that makes it great".
Songwriting is so subjective depending on the taste of the listener. Ultimately, I have to please my own worse critic, myself. Also, from alot of what I hear on pop radio, I often find myself wondering how some of these songs got recorded in the first place, again it is obviously very subjective. Mostly I want it to tell me something I haven't already heard or in a way I've never heard before. When I played selections from my CD for my Mom(none of those songs I wrote were on it), her reply was, "Aren't there any songs on your CD that I know?" So there you have it. I played a song I wrote on the piano for close friend recently and she said it was a good song but "with some tweeking it coud be really good". It was hard to find a place to work tweeking into the lyric...LOL I don't claim any knowledge of the key to success, but surely the key to failure is trying to please everyone. "This above all: To thine own self be true." - William Shakespeare
BTW THANKS Derick for your great work and continued effort to enhance our respective musical journeys!
The composing process is very complex; sometimes when you show work that’s not totally finished you’ll get ideas based on something that’s not quite ready. When I show my work I rather show it to people I think have enough critieria to understand and artist process to make a song or whatever creation he or she is working on, otherwise you can get really anxious of all the extra ideas people may have on your work.
Right now about the only feeback I get is from my girlfriend who is a very good musician. I'm more interested in her overall opinion in terms of the feel of the song as opposed to getting too detailed.
It has been my experience that paid (industry) critiques are helpful only in terms commercial presentation mainly keeping a basic song structure with simple, rather ordinary lyrics.
I have since dispenced seeking such critiques opting to go through a refinement in my songwriting process. I find my work getting better as a result of this.
I record a work tape, and then send it to my best fans asking for feedback. Often I send two versions of the lyrics, and ask which they like better. This is when I'm stumped between the two versions, unsure which is better.
LIFE IS FULL OF HATERS! SO PLAY THE SONG DON'T TELL ANYONE WHO THE ARTIST IS OR PRODUCER,IF THAT YOU ASK THEM AFTER THE SONG WHAT DO THINK OF THE ARRANGEMENT ANYTHING!....ASK DUMB QUESTIONS? I KNOW BECAUSE I MEET WITH THOSE JIVE,DEF JAM,BAD BOY MUSIC GUYS ALOT OF TIMES DON'T LIKE NONAMES-PRODUCERS OUT SHINING MAJOR PRODUCERS. THE SAME IS WITH YOUR PEERS,TEST YOUR MUSIC WITH KIDS THEY TELL THE TRUTH! LIL WANYE,JONAS BROTHERS.........WWW.SOL-VILLA.COM
No one is going to care as much as you do.
I was a big music fan, I bought all I could. When I ran out of things to buy, I started writing.
I think in the end I am only creating music for myself to listen to, now and in the future.
I once went through Sheila Davis' "Successful Lyric Writing." And at the end of the book, she offered a one time consultation for a fee. Best money I ever spent. I submitted two songs for her consideration. On one she told me I was fooling with my audience, and I had better come clean. At first I was a little offended. Then I decided that yes, she was right. So I re-wrote the bridge and the song "Anna On My Mind" was released on a Kansas City Songwriters' Circle anthology in 1999.
Mostly these days I perform new songs at the local songwriters' circle, videos of which are posted at Songpull.com. These may be found here http://www.songpull.com/pull/watch?group_id=29
Comments are welcome.
Jim Krause
When a friend or acquaintance comes to me and asks for an opinion of a song they have written or recorded, 95 percent of the time my response is "its a little too long".
If I really like the song I will let them know that I really liked it, but if I dislike the song for other reasons than song length, I will usually keep my mouth shut.
Why?
Because most of the songs that make a lot of money really really suck in my opinion. So if someone comes to me with a song that I think really sucks, then it has a really good chance of making tons of money and I wouldn't want them to change that song at all.
Now if the song is both too long and it really sucks, then I will tell them to shorten the song, but I won't tell them that the song sucks. Its all relative to the listeners taste whether a song is good or bad.
I like short songs, 50's and 60's pop. "Everyday" by Buddy Holly is one of my all time favorites.
Unfortunately, Don Maclean who was inspired by Buddy Holly, had his biggest hit with "American Pie". "American Pie" is one of my least favortie popular songs of all time. So if Don Maclean had come to me after he wrote "American Pie", I would have simply said "its a little long", even though I really can't stand any part of that song. And Don Maclean would have lived happily ever after with one of the biggest hits of the 70's, and I would have been slightly happier because the song would have been 15 minutes long instead of 20 mintues or whatever. You get my point?
I could use John Mayer as another example (ha ha poor John). I can't stand most of John Mayer's material, but he makes a buttload of money in the music industry. Millions to say the least. His songs are so extremely repetetive, and some people like that. So if John Mayer came to me and asked my opinion of one of his songs, I would simply say "its a little long and slightly repetetive". Than at least when I hear it on the radio its that much shorter. I would never tell John that I can't stand his songs!!!
Hi Derek,
I am a member of a website called songu.com. It is run by industry professionals who write for the current commercial market. They have great songwriting courses and feedback on all areas of your tunes via live web instruction....they have changed my life 180....Hey, if anyone is interested in joining please tell 'em I sent ya!
Thanks Derek!
I'm kind of picky about songs - wanting to live up to the quality of songs that inspire me. So, by the time anyone hears it, I'm done. Someone once said, "Art is not completed. It is abandoned." I subscribe to that. With the tools we have for production these days, the challenge is that we have too many options, and that we defer our abandonment of the song for too long. Also, I really have to separate the writing process from the production process - trying out many production approaches until I'm happy with the combination of song and production.
I generally dont seek much criticism of my work while doing it. I probably could/should but tend more to trust my vision and that of any contributing collaborators. Then i get any objective feedback towards the end of the creative process. Sngwriting circles can be helpful but also biased to others personal taste masquerading as rules. Sometimes I ask any creative person around for their first impressions, and see if what they say enlightens me.
http://www.quickstopentertainment.com/category/masters-of-song-fu/
This is a wonderful songwriting forum disguised as a contest. And it's just goofy fun. It's like the Iron Chef of songwriting. Where defined Masters take on all sorts of challengers for the title of "Master of Song Fu!"
There have been many good songs written for it. But, I think anyone could learn a bit about song writing by checking out the archives and following the current competition.
As President of the Connecticut Songwriters Association (http://www.ctsongs.com), I've been involved in leading hundreds of professional critique sessions all over the U.S. Feedback, which I identify as the role of "Sounding Board" in the creative process, is essential for really fine tuning a song to achieve the result that you, the artist, are aiming for. However, not everyone knows how to effectively solicit, give, and interpret feedback, i.e how to separate the subjective from the objective, expression from communication, creativity from craft, the artistic from the commercial, and where all these things fit in to an individual artist's vision.
This unfortunately causes many artists to shy away from the process and forego the benefits it can yield. My book will devote a great deal of discussion to this issue, but for now, check out these articles dealing with several aspects of the critique process, and the roles of giver/receiver:
http://www.billpere.com/PDF/MBTI%20in%20Critiquing.pdf
http://www.billpere.com/PDF/Three%20Levels%20of%20Criique.pdf
http://www.billpere.com/PDF/Role_Call.pdf
More at http://www.billpere.com/Songwriter_Tools.htm
For me, a song I write is one I like. A song by committee has its downside. Stick to your own innovations and phrasing. You'be got to stay yourself, and influence your own work and changes.
USELESS. I never play new songs for friends, family, the Industry, or musicians.
I perform it in front of a new audience that has never seen me before and immediately see and feel
if I have touched them emotionally.
Music is the language of emotion and therefore in an instant you see it in their faces.
I used to perform with a symphony orchestra behind me but was forced to stop the practice because none of the musicians could see the music through their tears.
Sneaky bro - embedding the second question. For me - the 'can it be improved?' question is built in to the initial process - in order to keep me interested enough to complete and remember a work long enough to record/and/or perform it. The question of 'can it be improved' is past from that point on. As for a recording of a work - completely separate.
But as for 'songs' I'm off to another one. Tunes can be covered and improved (or not) and that's well and good.
If analyzing is its own department - I'll be down the hall behind the dreaming up more door.
B.
I go through several stages of evaluation.
1. I have two trusted musician friends that give really great feedback for a song that is early in the process. I'll either play the song for them or email them a very basic demo. They understand that I am not looking for praise, but for a solid critique, and they aren't shy about telling me if my song doesn't move them or feels like it has missing elements.
2.Once I feel that I have the song to a stage where it is presentable, I will perform it at a local coffee house, telling people that it is a new song and asking for a feedback on this particular song after the set.
3. Next, I'll record the song using drum software, guitar, bass, vocal and have another friend drop in some kyb parts. Then I will do a rough mix and submit the song to Broadjam.com's peer to peer review. You do have to pay to be a Broadjam member, but the peer to peer review is included and I've found the people here to be very serious about songwriting.
4. At the same time, I've meet some great songwriters through Broadjam and I'll email the song separately to a couple of them asking for their critique.
5. Now I incorporate the suggestions (or not) and make a decision on whether or not to record & produce the song.
It is a longer process than I used to do, but that process gives the song time to gel and find its correct tempo, timbre and place in the world. I am starting to feel like I am crafting my songs and that the quality of my songwriting has improved tremendously.
ha ha... if only songwriters could get as many critique replies to their songs as you have to your question! Nice work Derek.
Pick the people whom you appreciate their taste and what they listen to... then ask them. But there's really only one question to ask "will you press play and listen to it again...?"
Having the luxury of being a 5 piece band full of songwriters - we are our own critics. If a song can get past the five of us, there's something worth listening to.
Our workflow goes like this:
1 String together riffs
2 Structure song
3 Play song in practice space
4 Record song
5 Either back to #1 or go to #6
6 Play live
I have band mates listen to it, I play it for a few friends, but mostly I myself listen to it and turn it over in my head over and over. By playing it for other people, though, I find that I end up thinking about it and hearing it in new and different ways. Sections or lyrics that may not have stood out as being problematic often do stand out, and then I have a stronger sense for what I feel about the song and those specific sections - where there needs to be some more tweaking/polishing, etc. And if I have a friend helping to engineer the song, which I occasionally do, then his opinion is also welcomed. However, ultimately it depends on the song's purpose - if it's just a rock song (or what not) done "for the hell of it" - i.e., for my band, just for art's sake & so on - then it just comes down to my feelings about it. And if someone offers feedback then yes I will take it into consideration and decide if I agree with them or not.
However, if I'm doing a song for someone else's project - a theatrical production or short film or what have you - then the person with whom I'm working on that project will offer official feedback, of course. And then we discuss and aim at getting the song to where it needs to be to support that project in the appropriate way, while also not sacrificing its own integrity, and so on.
Hi Derek, one hell of a question. I guess I've tried all the ways you listed and stupidly paid once (which I say avoid like the plague) I now tend to put an acoustic and voice version on my home page and let people who's honest opinions I respect give me feedback. I have a couple of close mates of some 35 years that I grew up with and discovered music with. They don't fuck about and give me straight answers. Family I avoid apart from my two year old daughter who seems to have my music sussed.
By the way nice vibe here, feel free to pop over y'all.
Love and music.
Al.
To some extent I self-edit my songs because I have been writing for a number of years and crank out 20-50 songs a year for a music library. If I'm really unsure about a song I have a small circle of songwriters that will listen and give me feedback. I have tried the songwriter workshop method and have not been happy with the results.
I had more thoughts once I read all the posts from people who say "I don't show my songs to anyone until they're done! I would never do that."
For me, my songs are barfed out in what seems to be X amount of inspiration. It is what it is, and it could be a complete song, or it could be just a hook or lyric fragment.
Next comes the perspiration and vision. You can't force vision, so sometimes it takes perspiration to get to the vision. It's easy for me to get stuck in this stage, and this is where I should share the song with people. This is a step that *can* (no guarantees) be a valuable shortcut.
This is the best place for me to make changes -- I am open to them, and the music is not so set in stone that it seems like too much work to make changes.
Perhaps some people really never need feedback. I am not that way, I write best with other people in the mix.
A song has two aspects, objective (construction, consistency, etc) and subjective (style, subject matter, etc).
I only look for objective criticism and mainly from the lyric. A song is what can be put on paper, so I email the lyric to my "quality control" department which consists of professional writer friends in different states with different writing styles. I know they we give me mostly objective rather tahn subjective opinions. People nowadays don't know the difference between a song and an arrangement and a production. The rule of thumb is that if it can't be put on one or two sheets of paper it's not part of the song.
I'm an A-hole about my music. If I like it, I go with it. If no one else gets it, well...
There are many whose talent wasn't discovered until long after they'd departed the world. During their lifetime, these artists were not really appreciated. To me, that says a great deal about public opinion. Not to mention what's popular these days!
"It's all right now, I learned my lesson well; you can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself" --Rick Nelson (no relation)
Chris Nelson
"what night sounds like"
www.soundclick.com/chrisnelsonus
www.facebook.com/chrisnelsonband
I have always written alone.I really think being honest as an artist and concentrating on writing while remaining true to yourself are the most important things.I really try not to let other people get in the way of it.It is important not to let critics and fans stifle the artistic process.The critics will always be there and so will your real fans.At the end of the day you have to be able to face yourself in the mirror.
I'm on to giving advice... you need to know your major scales and their chords.
obviously ?
the crowd pleasers are obvious right from the start. usually the simplest songs that repeat something they can relate to.
I still play what I love the best, but it's fun to see what gets people's attention.
I run the raw acoustic form by my husband first. He usually suggests a beat and a feel (he's a drummer). Then we play it for our 14-year old daughter who is a big pop music fan and just instinctively knows what's a hit and what isn't, what hooks should be repeated, and what should be added or taken away. My next EP (due out in another week or so) has her full approval
My songs are fairly well finished when I write it. God deffinately gave me a gift for writinng but singing I really have to work at. I some times get a thought and thirty mimutes have a song down with the melody in tact. I know very little about music. My husband has played since he was a teenager, so he helps me work out the tune and rythem. I sing at blue grass every month in Miami, and in churches in S. Fl. but I have never tried to get songs pulished.The thought sounds exciting but I'm not a pusher. That is why I was so excited about the contest.
Thanks so much for your intrest
I'll try harder
Emma Nell Gillilan
Derek,
Very happy and grateful to read you. Honestly, i create songs as a therapy, for the health,in accordance with my mind, dialogues...improvisations.
Respect.
Best regards.
1. Play your songs at open mics, especially the kind in NH where the audience is made up of other performers…. Meet them and ask them for honest constructive feedback.
2. Start a songwriter group in your community, gather weekly or monthly… (great incentive to write songs), have dinner, make it fun, develop trust, help each other!
Well friends, I think we're missing the boat if we forget that the one thing that creates genius is aligning with your heart/muse/energy inside.
Every feedback venture leads the participant away from dogmatic reliance upon their spirit.
What created every innovative paradigm shift was a simple attitude: they didn't care what others thought - the end was inherent in the means. And that can't be faked (which is why kids start trends... they believe and know they are smarter, so... they are.
I have two audiences on which I try out my songs.
First, my family. I write funny songs. That's all. If they don't laugh, it ain't funny and it goes back to the drawing board.
Second, if the family laughs, the song gets the open mic test. I take it to an open mic (or sometimes play it at a gig) and test the audience reaction. I usually have to do this two or three times to get a general idea of whether the audience likes it or not. (Note: Old people do not enjoy songs about body piercing. YOUNGER people, though...absolutely!)
In the end, if it gets laughs, it stays in the repertoire, provided I remember it and don't forget it.
I get together once a month with fellow songwriters. We each play a song. If you want an honest critique, you'll get it. The people who take criticism well get better and better. The people who don't want to hear it seem to go nowhere. Most of my songs have been improved as a result of feedback I've gotten from the group.
Once a final drafts are completed, I wait a couple of a days and then revisit the tunes. I do that a couple of times over a week or so looking at all parts of the tune especially the feel. If it survives after some tweaking, I'm finished.If I like it, it's on the record.
rhyc
I usually play the song (once I deem it "done") for my friends and family. At this point, there's a couple things I tend to cringe about that I notice just by watching their faces (turn the high's down, the low's are muddy, whatever - I can usually gauge it by their face).
Then, after they've heard it, i ask for feedback: "what'd you think? Like it? anything jump out as you? make you cringe? does it make you wanna jump/dance?"
Then, I take these notes back to my studio, and try to work at the song a bit. If i deem it too hard, or too much of a drastic change to the music to accomodate something, I either shelve it (if everyone hated it), or say "Screw it" and just go for it as is.
Also, I tend to stage-test new stuff- play it at a gig, intermingle with other things, covers, etc. If people look like they dig it, it's gold. Ship it!
Well I've been writing songs with my songwriting partner for several years now. We have two albums, and split all of our songwriting 50/50 even if the song was really 70/30. This is important because we discarded of the competitive aspect of writing which has enabled us to be really open to the others criticism.
We always bring each other what we're working on, and are frank and honest in our opinions.Neither of us are bothered because we know that the other has the songs best intentions in mind.
I think that writing with another person is great because it pushes you beyond what you would typically do, and brings another mind of ideas into the mix.
Also, outside feedback from professionals is crucial to improving. We had a TAXI membership when we released our first album, and 50% of our stuff was forwarded on. We never got a deal through it, but we got a lot of great critiques. It was easy for us to identify our problem areas because the majority of the critiques mentioned the same issues. When we wrote our next album we worked off of those critiques and had much stronger songs.
Now most of our feedback comes from fans, or music supervisors, or producers.
I don't think this "asking around" approach can be anywhere near on point. I say this for the simple reason that statistically you are asking people you have access to. Namely, friends, fans and other people who are already at your shows or know you.
I usually just create and put out records that I am happy with and the public makes it painfully clear what worked and what didn't.
An amusing anecdote, we put out a whole record and the song which garnered the most criticism from fans and friends ended up in 2 MTV shows (Real World), and pulls by far the most iTunes downloads.
If I had asked my fan base, I'd have missed the publicity generated by that song completely (maybe even dropped it from the record).
David Gilmour has said "to guess what the public wants is a fool's game".
Just create. Make yourself happy and let them choose what they like from what you create for yourself.
Derek,
this is what I meant by music as subversive activity - a great question gets me to think & evaluate what I do, & more important what I don't do enough.
thanks.
1- I download it to an mp3 and mail it to friends whose main focus is not music but who are very exposed to music in their work: a script writer, a film/tv editor, a videographer/painter; a farmer/barn & wood boat restorer;
a lawyer - to as many different locations as possible around the world.
2- I send it to my band mates in Poland , to my fiddle player who is now a radiology resident; to a radio DJ & sometimes she has time to respond ; to musicians I know in other genres than my folk .. classical quartets, flamenco, jazz, & blue grass.
3- I am in the process of learning how to put new pieces in a beta/ unmixed form onto my website just to have anyone listen to it; get as many new ears to listen as possible ! To hell with copyright - get me beyond those silly possessive feelings!
4-I put it on my iPhone and play it over the radio in my car until either I get tired of it or my passengers do or I find it has something .
5- I produce house concerts on a small stage my house; I have talked with local musicians of having a monthly night with four or so singer/songwriters performing 2 pieces each with or without an invited audience.
6-And finally,I need to push myself to go out and perform new stuff in front of anyone; I like the idea of busking; and small joints where other musicians come in, open mics and pickup nights.
What I usually do is begin with a good melody and try to work a nice chord progression around that than I develop the songs structure verse chorus bridge etc..as I’m doing this im singing gibberish with no lyric yet that usually the last thing that I develop I don’t normally go into it with an idea already in mind about what the songs going to be about I like to be surprised when its done
I record myself and listen to the song in progress a lot. When it's pretty much completed, I perform it for others and listen for remarks on interpretation, not so much form. I find people are more conservative on form than interpretation.
I do think it's also helpful to just record your song and to listen to it, even after a few days, as if it were someone else's song - would you buy it or put it on your playlist - why/why not? Sometimes when you just play it over and over you're too busy playing & remembering it to actually hear the song & how it is working. I think it's helpful to take your song to groups of folks who play (and listen to) the genre of your song who you respect and get their feedback since they have an idea of what is working or selling in that genre, but I don't always trust this type of feedback. Don't let picky folks ever keep you from letting out the song that's in your soul! Everybody has different taste - trust yours! Trust your audience! Develop and trust your instinct - listen to a lot of music!
Thrilled that you asked this question.
Your friends and family will always bullshit you and say, "I don't know why you're not on the radio! Your songs are so great!" You can send to Taxi, pay a lot of money and maybe once in awhile get a useful critique. I would LOVE to have a site/blog/etc that would be a place where you could get honest feedback from peers...BEFORE you submitted it for "real".
After more than forty years of writing songs and playing in bands, duos and as a solo act, I do it strictly for myself these days. If someone else likes it, that's great. It's gravy and I still enjoy that but it's actually quite liberating to not care what other people think about your art. As a very prolific songwriter once wrote: "You can't please everyone so you got to please yourself."
To be very honest we view songwriting as a means to express ourselves honestly and completely from the heart. What we don't do is compromise our expression by asking others to critique it or suggest changes... to us that defeats the object of writing in the first place.
Songwriting isn't a talent contest (maybe it is for some), to us it is an emotional therapy.
So if someone likes our music that is great, if they don't then they obviously didn't relate to it or understand it... no problem, move on.
Simon
GXR
It all starts with the hook. If you dont have a hook, you dont have a song. Then you determine whether it sounds like a verse, a chorus, an intro, then build around it. Sometimes its something as smple as a riff or a something catchy that you're just humming away at. The trick is to transfer it from your head to the instrument, then to a song. Hope this helps Derek!
First of all, let's clarify that there's a difference between trying to write a commercial pop hit and trying to craft a deeply personal song. In one case, there are experts who can tell you all the tips and tricks that will enhance your pursuit. In the other, there are those who can inspire and encourage, but I don't believe anyone can tell you how to actually articulate your passion or rage better than you - you're only limited by your linguistic and technical musical abilities, which is 90% of what people comment on. You wanna write better songs? Improve your skills.
I don't ask other people for feedback on my songs. However, one thing I always do when I write a new song is walk away from it and let it sit. In the heat of the moment, it's easy to convince yourself that you've just written a masterpiece and that every word/note is gold. When you come back to it a couple days later, you will certainly notice structural and lyrical flaws that you glossed over when you were still in that first blush of post-creative love.
I don't ask. As a creative writer, I prefer not to have collaborators or input from wannabe critics. Nobody has my creative vision, and until a song is completed, I don't even know what it's going to be like. On my current song, because it represents an image change for me, I asked a well-known producer/arranger for his opinion of the lyrics (which is all that I had written at the time). He liked them but asked, "Why?" See, that's one of the reasons why I don't play an unfinished song for anyone. In my many decades of life, I've learned that I'm NOT other people’s opinions or their dreams. Once you know who you are, it doesn't matter what other people say or think. When someone asks me “Why?” Pshaw! I don’t need a reason to do what I want to do. I don’t need to explain myself to anyone. Especially if what I want to do has never been done in the way that I am doing it. Incidentally, not looking for validation, I've had to share the lyrics and image change with three other professional friends, who love the idea. Today, I'm 'Pro Toolsing' the song. So There!
Hmmm....
My songs are usualy finished before i let anyone listen.
But i do play bits...parts of the song to friends and i ask if it sounds familiar if its no then i know i'm on to something.... if i'ts yes then i listen to whatever it is that it sounds like and i proceed from there .
After years of composing music for a different medium (live theatre), I started taking private theory lessons. This quickly evolved into a one-on-one songwriting workshop with a mentor (who soon became a good friend). 1-2 songs a week for a year presented at every lesson, no matter how raw or undeveloped. It was the most profoundly helpful step I've ever taken.
Now that I'm recording and performing on a regular basis, time and money have unfortunately precluded the workshop. Presenting songs to my band, I can tell right away if they guys aren't excited (or my own gut feeling says something's not right), so I keep whittling away until we get to the GOOD STUFF. Next comes a few trusted musician friends and a live audience. If it's still not feeling good enough or the audience reaction is tepid, then I'll ditch the song for a while (months? years?) and maybe come back to it with a fresh approach.
Overall, having an experienced, trustworthy mentor from the beginning gave me plenty of confidence and a critical ear towards my own work. I'm not sure there's a substitute for that level of trust unless it's built during personal interaction.
First firing line the songs hit is the band, myself (manager/sound engineer), and 1 or 2 dedicated friends/fans that show up at practice once in awhile.
When a song is roughly ready for the public - the band will play it through, which usually ends up with the friend/fan saying how much they love it. While the singer and I are quietly chatting about it in a corner as the band finishes out the song.
That's when the band notices us, and the discussion starts on what is working and what isn't. Either musically, overall groove of the song, riffs interfering with vocal lines, etc... They all work together to help each other better their part to compliment the overall song and each other.
Once it's where the band is happy, it goes live at a show for a crowd response check. We look at who's getting excited by it, and who decides to go for a beer instead.
If not at least half the crowd is diggin it, it's put under serious evaluation by the band. If at least half the crowd is into it, it's lightly looked over for minor improvements that would help engage the rest of the listeners.
Fans and concert-goers are the most brutal listeners you'll find. While they won't critique the song, they'll show you exactly how they feel by what they do.
And of course, once it's a crowd pleaser and gets to the studio level, it's re-evaluated by the label, the band, and myself for further improvement.
I don't think Dichotic would ever ship out a song to a paid "professional" for evaluation. If crowds love it, they love it. If they don't, well then they don't, and rather than trying to critique every song to be a hit, sometimes you have to push that song off a cliff and never look back.
And yes, once it's out there and heard by crowds, it will likely end up posted online, and we do receive feedback randomly from listeners, which is always welcome.
We just don't like ASKING for feedback as it can sometimes be skewed views since it's solicited feedback.
"I got vision up the butt..."
- School of Rock
Hi Derek,
On my last CD, which started out as all Improv, I first ran it by another solo pianist who has had a lot of experience in the genre I am in. And then I had the very good fortune of hiring a producer, Eric Tingstad (of Tingstad and Rumbel), who ended up editing my Improvs and taking the music to a higher level. I probably could have lived with the Improvs as they were, as I was very happy with the work that I did. But handing my music over to someone whose ear I highly respect, was definitely the right move. The music works so much better after editing. I would never have been able to hear the music objectively enough to edit it myself.
Peace ☮ Love ♥ & Light ☼
Louis
When I'm writing a song, I don't seek feedback until late in the recording stage, if ever.
We all have, within us, unique aesthetic sensibilities. When writing a song, I try to follow my own intuition.
Some loose parameters I use to guide me in the songwriting process are: 1) the lyrics should be able to function alone as a decent poem; 2) the lyrics should be insightful or at least express my point of view on a subject; 3)for music, sometimes I try to imagine how the song would sound if it were performed and arranged by the Beatles or some other band I admire; 4)when I'm coming up with a new musical idea I think - if the Beatles, or some other band I admire, were together today what would they have come up with. This helps me stay emotionally connected to the musical idea as it evolves.
Two years ago I started working with a group of about 50 men who enjoy praise and worship. I now run new songs past them - in part or in near-finfished form - to gauge their response. If they can't sing it or follow the melody, it goes back into the hopper for reworking. When guys choke up or stop to listen, I know I have hit them where it counts. At that point it is a keeper.
Thanks for the follow Derek!
Are you thinking about developing an online site for this?? :D
That will be awesome!
@SRivera
Erm, well...I get a song coming at me from all directions, melodies, lyrics, basslines, drum patterns, guitar lines, strings etc, then I go down to a mill in Manchester where musicians and friends I know hang out and start laying it all down so it isn't driving me mad anymore. I then leave it to whoever to add their imagination/musicianship/production to it. I come back a week later and there is a finished track. I look around at the beaming smiles from my friends, some of whom are musicians, some of whom are not and I think to myself, what a wonderfull world!
After I've written a song I do a cheapie demo and send it to Taxi.com for a critique. After I get a response back I've go over the suggestions with my writing partner and think about it for a while. Then I do a little re-writing. After that I'll sing it at a show and get the audience reaction. That will tell me a lot. It the audience doesn't respond too well I'll rewrite some more and send the revised version for another critique at Taxi.com and to get more feedback. I've never had to send it for more than two critiques because by then I've got it as good as it's going to get. Getting outside criticism is key. You can never trust what your best friends and family say. They always tell me it's wonderful no matter how bad it is and that's just not helpful.
I used to do a lot of play writing and was part of a writing group for five years. There's a technique to knowing what to do with the evaluations you get on your writing and it works the same with songs. But it takes time to be able to figure out what people are actually saying about your work and then figuring out how to make chances that address the comments.
Derek:
Didn't take the time to read all the responses (you have a great following!), so don't know if this has been mentioned.
We have over 50 members in the Minnesota Association of Songwriters, which meets monthly. One or two hours of that meeting is given to critiquing each others' songs. We have members who have been published, recorded and gotten airtime, so the mix of knowledge is pretty high. Sometimes we get to hear the results of a re-write at subsequent meetings!
My two cents...
Derek, another great question!
I agree that to have a open forum with other songwriters analizing and suggesting ways to take a song in a different direction would be very helpful.
For me songwriting comes from a very special palce inside of me, a very deep and private place, so to let stragers hear songs I'm working on could be very scary and emotional, but through the process of opening up to understand it's OK to let people see and feel that place within me. After all that place of limbo, neither human or spirit is where you MUST be able to open your body to when you perform!
By way of growing past the disscomfort of being told "this or that" should be changed about one of your songs and exposing your creative source in a uncomfortable way you can learn to just stay in that place allowing the source of it to become WHO YOU ARE COMPLETELY at all times.
This is the secret of why all of our greatest artists, writers, and thinkers (i.e. Albert E.) for our entire human history have had "MAGNETIC" quality to them. People all over the world connect and are drawn to these figures without ever meeting them.
It is this ability that is within every human, to embrace our divinity within by rejecting fear
and limitation and allowing the "SOURCE" of
creation to envelope all you are. In doing so alllowing yourself to become who you truly were born to be, the light!
- dominick Joseph
I have a few well-placed "reviewers" that are very familiar with the particular genre of music I write (latin jazz/salsa). These include professional DJ's, reviewers, and "just plain folks". I also send stuff to my father, but he's last on my list ;).
When I have a new song I'm working on, I send each of them a rough copy (as an MP3) and solicit feedback. In exchange, every one of my reviewers gets a copy of my latest CD when released. I consider it small payment for the invaluable insight they provide.
Once I've got favorable reviews from everyone, then I proceed to send the song(s) out en-masse. If unfavorable, I go back and tweak and start the process over.
The last CD I completed took two years from start to finish...but I was VERY satisfied with the results, and the resulting "professional" reviews were all very favorable.
Derek,
I use a combination of sources to get feedback on new songs.
1-My wife is ruthless-if I can't keep her attention or if something strikes her as illogical or strange, she'll let me know.
2-Trusted songwriters I know personally. I play it for them without the aid of a lyric sheet, then hand them the lyric sheet afterwards to jog their memory about things they may have misunderstood or that they thought could be strengthened.
3-I pass out audience response cards with each song listed by name at performances where it is appropriate and ask for specific feedback on each song. This of course implies that you know in advance the names and order of songs you are going to perform.
Clive Romney
i thought it was interesting what Bono said in a recent interview with the british magaziine Q. When asked why he would play his new album from his terrace on a french beach (where someone recorded the songs on their mobile and put them on the internet) he said he didn't play his songs to other to hear what they thought. He played them to gauge how HE felt about them once they were in the public domain. The point being i guess that we don't always know if WE'RE happy with our work until we let the light of an audience shine on it!!!
When I think it's done, I play it to my harshest critic - my wife! She can see through things I kid myself about!
Ask your self few questions
1st why you writing a song? If you writing for a reason!
Is it your own fresh original idea?
Is this idea trigger from listening other song/music track?
--------------------------------------------------------------
By talking we can communicate information "MUSIC is for communicating emotions" therefore it can be major or minor very much depends on your feeling and emotion at the time of writing a song so don’t be precondition
I would leave all samples and ready made virtual instruments and start from scratch.
Good luck and best wishes, I am sure unique as you are would be able to contribute new sound to our music world.
Usually I play it for my wife,brother and friends but lets face it they fill in gaps in my life a stranger will not. As a member of taxi that is when I receive the real critique.I am still trying to grow.
Eddie Wells
Hey Derek,
I actually go through several different channels to get feedback. The purpose varies from song to song. Sometimes, there will be parts I'm really not sure about and I need opinions on some of the ideas I may have, other times, I'm pretty much looking for validation of a finished product haha. But there are a few industry people I know that give great feedback, my friends are very honest, but constructive with their thoughts, and things like OurStage.com, Taxi.com and HitSongScience.com are other great tools to see how folks are getting (or not getting) into your music. And of course, fan feedback is probably one of the most important ways to get thoughts on a song. So for me, any or all of these methods are useful. The next question is, now that you have the feedback, what do you do with it?
Derek looks like a really nice guy.
He has that "glow" that only comes from never having to worry about money for the rest of your life. That kind of security releases feel-good drugs into the brain. You feel GREAT.
And everybody must get stoned.
So, we wind up playing games like this one, Derek preaching that everyone can make it like he did when it's totally impossible. There's just not enough room at the top.
Then again, 90% of everything is trash, which goes for most of these songs under discussion. But, we need the trash for the good stuff to float on so it's visible.
So please, everyone keep pushing it out.
AB
Time. I hate writing projects with a deadline. Usually I've got 3 or 4 ready to go, then I wrestle with 3 or 4, then I just fill space. Oddly enough some of the best stuff is the space filler.
But as for feedback, nobody else can tell you what you are trying to say. I've asked some great songwriters (guys with gold records) how many times they change the lyrics before they're ready to record it, and as expected, they all said, right up to the last take.
I think Bowie is the only one I know that never goes into the studio until he's finished writing. He says he never writes in the studio.
Personally, I feel that songs come together in the studio. And I have a high standard writing lyrics. I laugh at people that write lyrics that I can predict. Phone/Stone Trick/stick yukkkkkkk
Try rhyming Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Hey Derek:
SongU.com has a very affordable way to get pro song feedback!
~Julie
www.GetMusicSuccess.com
We have a system in our band - I come up with a framework, usually an arrangement, melody, etc. I flesh it out as much as I can; then, our drummer and I start polishing it up. Once it resembles something that makes "sense", we bring it to the rest of the band, where we tweak the details until we're happy with it. No one outside the band hears it during this process. Once we're feeling good about it, we'll start doing demos, sharing them with various friends/mentors/mgmt types. We'll polish it some more, then start playing it live - that's the litmus test, the reaction and feedback from fans. But it's interesting - we worked with producer Sylvia Massy, and we learned that until you bring a song into the studio, it's nowhere near "finished". Even then, until it's recorded and released in an official way, it's still possible that it will change yet again.
I don't generally run songs by people. If I have an idea I'm working on it's usually just my own taste and gut reaction that concern me, though I do often run into a crossroads where I'm not sure what I want to do (whether it be a chord or lyric etc...). I'll then come up with a few options and run them by my partner, who usually will either prefer one of them or none, then it's back to the drawing board.
I also often do demos of songs well before I get to record them, and generally I've noticed that by the time it goes on an album I've made more changes than I'd realized.
I write songs to write the best song I can write, and that's what thrills me. However, in the presentation (arrangement, production style, mixing etc...), that's when I'll look for feedback from a wider circle of people. I want to get the essence of the song across, not dilute or obscure it.
Finally, I've noticed that I sometimes write a few songs that lead up to a final, more refined song that contains the best elements of the songs that came before it.
I am a Christian songwriter, so the most important thing for me is writing a song that is both current-marketable and on track with Scripture. I usually try to keep new songs pretty close and to the nest. My wife is always the first to hear (and my toughest critic. I'm not seeking praise, but I know if it passes her ears it may be worth playing for others.
I am a member of Taxi - but I have won song contests with songs they didn't like...so I now just go with my own instincts.
writing for me is a very personal endeavor and the only person I really run ideas past is my co-writer jason. we don't really rely on outside input when it comes to the song creation, although we love to hear peoples opinion and response once we have something completed and ready for public consumption. ultimately though, the lyrics and the melody are defined by us as the songwriters/artists.
musical tastes are varied and subjective.....what dif does it make if someone else thinks a song is good so long as you are getting the opportunity to express yourself in a medium you truly love.
I go to open mic's in my area and play the new songs. You get more of a mixed audience of other musicians and general listeners. And since it's not a full gig (you'd likely only be playing a couple of songs), the audience isn't overwhelmed so they can really zero in on the songs.
We're usually our own worst critics.
We'll play the heck out of a song. try it out in every (reasonably) re-arranged form, including different instruments (acoustic instead of electric, organ instead of piano, etc) and usually it'll click at some point and if we all (4 of us) feel good about it, then great. if not, we'll shelf it for a while a try it again later.
Hi, Derek!
There is a great organization in Baltimore that I have been a part of for 10 years called The Baltimore Songwriters Association. http://baltimoresongwriters.org/
They have song critiques and advanced song critiques every month. I have found these sessions to be invaluable and bring many new songs to the group. There are guidelines (you have to say something positive before you say something negative, etc.), so mostly the feedback I get is thoughtful. (Even if it's not it's always good to hear!)
The BSA has been going strong for over 10 years and hosts open mics, juried compilation CDs, as well as showcases featuring local songwriters. I'm on the bill for next month, and the show will be broadcast live on the internet radio station, "Umbrella Radio." http://www.umbrellaradio.org/radio/Welcome.html
Very cool scene we have here in B-more!
thanks for all you do,
much love,
sahffi
If you play an unfinished piece to a group of say a half a dozen people, the chances are you'll get six different opinions and you'll end up more confused than before. I think you need to trust in your own judgement a lot of the time. After all, isn't that why you became a song writer in the first place? However, if you've hit a wall and you're stuck for ideas, by all means put it out there and ask for some honest feedback, which btw isn't that easy to come by.
I see song writing essentially as a subjective process and I can't imagine playing an unfinished song to anyone until I've done as much with it as I possibly can (unless it's a collaboration and I need to send it off to a lyricist / vocalist to work on for example), but that's just me.
Another thing I do is to leave it alone for days or weeks at a time and approach it again later on with fresh ears. It can sound very different and the bits that don't work are usually a lot more obvious.
I will sometimes play it for a friend and see what there initial response is to the song.But more than not when I have written knew material I will test it out at a show and see the audience response and how it felt to perform it and sometimes how it felt with the band. There are a lot of songs that only get played once and some just become a writing exercise for perhaps a song that will make it into a set. I don't know about everyone else, but I write a lot of stuff that never makes it to "prime time" as I like to say. When I do get a note I am pretty open for changing things, especially if a band member makes a suggestion that really works. I have expanded songs because a fan wanted to hear more of the chorus, for example.
I have three or four merciless critics I send lyrics to. They care more about the art than my feelings and so I value them immensely. But mainly it is in singing it for people, whether they say anything or not, that the cringe factor comes into play. What has changed for me over the last few years is that as soon as the initial blast of the song is out, I can turn on my critical brain while I'm still in the zone of creating imagery, and go back over it two or three times until it really is something new.
My home-base town goes through phases with songwriting groups but when we have a good one going, I find the experience invaluable for tweaking material.
I have posted new songs to MySpace to get feedback from fans as well and of course there's nothing like a live audience applauding wildly or staring dumbstruck to determine if a song's working or not
I have had the most success with friends & acquaintances in what we call a "song circle". 5-6 of us will meet at someone's houe for a couple hours once or twice per month. Everbody plays a "baby" song for critique. Of course, you have to have trust. And you have to learn how to receive feedback.
I have learned over the years that I don't have to apply everbody's feedback. In fact, usually nobody expects me to. I've also learned that I can try a suggested new direction for a song, then discard it if it goes off the tracks. I also do not have to hold every comment in equal regard. I consider the source carefully. For instance: The blues writer in my group may poo-poo my folk song. That's OK, it's not his bag, baby!
The feedback process we use is called the "stars & wishes" formula which says: give three things you like *before* diving into assessment of the weak spots of a particular song. That way It's always honest, just more palatable for the songwriter being critiqued.
How does the internet fit into all of this? I'm not sure that with e-mail it would work as well. Song circles I have been part of have been quasi-successful with one group member listening in on skype. A live video feed might be cool.
But overall the "in-person" song circle is the best way for me to get feedback. I think you need that tone of voice and body language before, during, and after the performance to be able to understand feedback comments appropriately.
Just my two cents...
In Music,
Jamie Purnell
Those workshops can be very helpful, especially to songwtiters who do not have access to established, hit songwriters. I was very fortunate to spend countless mornings at the kitchen table with Ed Bruce (Mommas Don;t Let Your Babies..., Texas When I Die, See The Big Man Cry, One, etc). I was a "row rat" in Nashville for 15 years and places like The Blue Bird and Douglas Corner provided opportunities to present new songs to a room full of songwriters. "The Blue Bird Clap" was the polite, yet unenthusiastic applause given to everyone who performed. However, on rare occassions, it was a sure fired sign that you had something when they cheered, or whistled, or yelled, "Yeah, Bud!" In my opinion, there is no better way to fine-tune a song than to play it for a room full of other writers. When the majority says, "Man, I wish I had written that." Stop re-writing. Otherwise, keep sifting the flour. DBLANCO
I've found that most people, outside of the music industry, can't really judge a song in it's raw form, such as a guitar/vocal demo. So I don't play my new songs for anyone until I have a finished, properly recorded product, with full instrumentation.
Knowing every song I write is not going to be great, I still don't rely on outside input, but rather trust my own "gut" instinct. The only opinions I truly value are from the musicians that helped in the recording. When I've finished a batch of songs, I try to throw out the stinkers, and stick with the ones that I feel good about. Bubba D. Liverance
Hi Derek,
This question recently came up in the forum at FAWM. (February Album Writing Month) There is a comment field for participants to give immediate feedback on the lyrics and the demo (if there is one). There's even a little reminder near the comment field to "Be honest but respectful with feedback".
There are two (or more) schools of thought on this. One says to just comment on the songs that you like and don't say anything to those that might not be up to a certain level. The other is to be brutal and tell them exactly whats wrong with it. Most folks fall in the middle and give 'gentle' constructive critique based on the experience level of the songwriter.
There's no right or wrong way to do it. Some of the songwriters participating will specify in the 'liner notes' that they'd welcome complete honesty.
For my own personal writing, I will play it until I'm comfortable with it and then ask my wife and immediate family. Then I'll play it out a few time and get a bead on audience reaction on if it's a keeper.
Usually I'll get together with friends to play a session and try out new tunes with them. Or I'll ask my husband, one of the most brutally honest people I know.
Sometimes I'll write a tune just before going to a gig, and since my band can sightread pretty much anything, we'll tell the audience that we have something brand new and then launch into it. Even if it is a train wreck, the audience has a great time seeing us plow our way through a new tune, and we have a great time working it out on stage.(I guess this probably works better with jazz than with pop, but hey, you never know...)
Carnal rooterbagger?
Actually, I don't solicit anyone's opinions on my music. I just put it out there and if people like it, fine. If they don't, whatever. I'm not doing it for anyone but myself, anyway.
I play it for regular everyday ordinary people who aren't sound engineers. I figure if a regular joe thinks the song is good or great or awsome,that's a good start because they're the people that buy the music. Just a guitar and vocal should be good enough to tell if it's great. Of course you can't sing and play it like your tonedeaf, so if you can niether sing or play guitar or whatever instrument, convey it to someone who can interpret it for you or think about how maybe "this isn't for you" and find what you are good at. Maybe you'd be better at sports? But who's to say who sounds good and who sounds bad, you could just call it a "Style" or "New Genre" of music. Say like a new "disonent and inharmonic screaming at the top of your lungs" style. People might like that!
I'm a full time busker in NYC. I have the luxury of testing songs on an unsuspecting public. Typically we just go for it and if we sell a few cd's or make some tips we know the song is working. If our audience disperses we know we either have to make some changes: dump the fucker or keep practicing till gets tight. After 4 or 5 gigs we know what the songs' fate will be.
RE: What do you do for feedback on a new song you're writing?
I used to play in bands and didn't care if anyone liked the songs or not. We just rocked out and had fun. And if the band has fun, everyone else has fun.
But, once I became a solo acoustic performing/singer/songwriter, I attended music expos, festivals, and conferences. I learned everything I could learn, like a sponge I absorbed it all. At the beginning of my solo adventure I was naive and used companies like Sonicbids, spending money with no results. NEVER again! Couldn't get any action. I marketed to nationwide radio with tiny success. I sought out everyone I could find to review my music, with tiny success. I networked like crazy on Myspace, to the world, and thats when I noticed I had fans all around the world who loved my music. That helped me believe in myself because I struck an international nerve, I had listeners around the world, how cool is that?!
The best thing that has helped me, was going to Master Sessions and listening to the great minds behind the songs I grew up loving. The epiphany was understanding that most of the great artist (performing/singer/songwriters) were rejected by everyone and in that process it made them believe in the music they write and to believe in themselves.
I do remember going to the Durango Songwriters festival for the 2nd time and sitting in a pitch session with Marshall Altman (producer of Matt Nathanson, Marc Brousard, Kate Voegle) and I was the 2nd to last critique. I heard these amazing productions and I was scared. Marshall was pickin-em apart like they were all mediocre and here I recorded a song in my bedroom. When he played my song, he said "this is a GREAT song","there nothing for me to tell you" then he grabbed his guitar and started playing and singing the song as the whole class started singing along. That scared the daylights out of me, I didnt know what was going on. I guess what Im trying to say, sometimes when you get someone in the business that gives you great feedback, it surely can light a fire under your butt. Those moments happen occasionally at pitch sessions. Attending festivals is a good thing early on in your career if you can afford them. But the end result is when someone tells you "thats a Great Song", they are just reaffirming probably what you already know.
So, once you believe in yourself and your music, you wont ever care about a critique anymore. Failure is wanting money for your art. Art is not about money. Success is touching someone's heart, even if its only one. What more would you ever need...
Love and Peace
I have good intuition about my songs and I always know, for example, when they're NOT finished -- tha means when they're no good.
I play them for my father. He's very tough with lyrics and he'll tell me.
I sing them for my mother. If she cries, I've nailed another one.
Then I sing them for the public, if they cry I know I have a hit.
The important thing is to know yourself if the song is any good. And that comes from practice and also from reading Sheila Davis.
When I started writing I just did it and let it flow. I didn't care if anyone "got it". If it had a groove I liked it. Lyrics are difficult for me and if I get hung up on them then no song gets written. I have not been able to find many places to get HONEST feedback. If you aren't cool nobody cares about what you write even if it's good... and if you are cool you can write sh*t and get all kinds of glory. It's how you look baby.
I do not solicit advice on songs. If I cannot figure it out or I'm stuck I just wait. There are some god-awful hit songs written by the "best in the industry". If you are honest, you know what's good and what's not. Remember, because it's selling doesn't mean it's good. I mean, think how many Big Macs are sold every year. Stick to your guns and be real. It's all you've really got.
Barn-owl carpetbagger?
When I review a cd, I like to involve everyone that has supported my music. What I do before I meet with these people is write down questions and notes on possibly how the song could be better. If your peers hear your song and agree with what you think, then go back to the lab and fix it up.
Hi D,
Good question. When I make new music I post it to Facebook, and "Share" it with a select group of my friends. Anyone linked to my profile can listen to the audio if they look for it, but this select group will give me their feedback. I usually choose people who are going to give some constructive criticism, and a few people who I want to keep in touch with career wise, and a few people that I'm just going to get a complement whatever I do, but the intelligent criticisms are golden.
Home-brew sneaker-legger!
i put it on a record and start doing it at shows.
i don't really look for any comment on it one way or the other. i work on it till i like it and there you go. in my way of looking at things if i work on something for a few weeks, it's not going to do me much good to have someone listen for eight bars and start making comments because they don't know what it is i'm building. that's kind of what's dicey about criticism of art. if you just look at the result, how can you judge what it is without talking to the artist about it. maybe he was doing something that the critic isn't catching. why focus group and change it because people love to comment on stuff and change it? i'd say, stick with the art and keep writing. i ignore all that stuff.
Darn old table-begger!
I try to let as few people as possible have influence on me when I am writing a song. I don't mean I don't have influences. Obviously everything I have ever heard, seen, or experienced has influenced me.
But I consider a song to be a little piece of art and I want it to be as much straight from the gut as possible.
When I've finished a song, it is pretty much finished for good. But, I take it to a stage somewhere, just before it's finished - just before it feels like it's been cemented - and I will play it for an audience. I don't look for audience reaction as much as I listen to the song in this new environment and I try to see how it flows. Lots of times in these situations, little nuances will suggest themselves to me. Maybe, I change a word here or there, or the bridge gets a new dynamic. These changes are just based on the difference of a song bouncing around in my living room verses floating out to a crowd.
When I finish writing a song, I usually have the arrangement already worked out as well, but if it's a song for my band then I'm totally open to ideas from the others.
That said, I LOVE LOVE LOVE, making suggestions to other people when they are writing songs. Sometimes, they even listen to me.
Suckers.
Well for myself I usually play it for several people to see how they like it. (friends, family,Co-workers, business partners) Then I email it to specific people who fit the audience of listeners most likely to purchase to get their opinion. I usually want to know how it makes them feel. Next I would play it at a club. I know several Dj's and if its a dance track. If people get up and dance to it. I know its a good song. I sometimes don't tell people who produced first before I play to allow for unbiased feedback. I have noticed if you tell people you did it sometimes feedback is not genuine.
I use a MAC, I turn on a track,
wooo poetry!
Its my reliable work horse that I can count on anytime to record a basic idea of what the spark was.
The words or the melody.
Then I put it to a feel.
Songs are secret for me till I release them.
No one has a say.
And I don't ask!
If they did I'd honestly feel obliged to give them the credit for part of it.
My art, my thoughts, and my melodies.
Some say I need a producer....what I'd likely need is money to pay someone to do what I aught to be able to do myself(as an artist)
Everything doesn't always need to be perfect. Just perfectly true and as pure you as possible.
Then you really are what you are selling, however humble the pkg. Not a room full of paid talent and machines.
Co writing is a different entity obviously.
As is being in a co op (band)
In the early days folks would suggest
"why don't you write one like so and so" who is popular at the time but to me this is copy cat mainstream for the wanna bees.
Or for money?
There's so much of that, in todays music.
Personally I'm happy to be independent from outside forces.
I try to just be me. Even if its unpopular or considered not in demand or what ever. All the better to be left alone to just be true to my art.
I
Hope this helps someone find {their} way.
TONES™
Derek,
If I like my new song,I usually run it by my beautiful wife first, because Im too cheap these days to go to all the neat places of audition, like song writers' groups, barbeque houses, and ladies' clubs.
If my wife likes it (She is a masters in English.), then I run it by my band. If they like it, that's when we play it in public. If the public likes it, then I get to sell CDs. That seems to be the bottom line for this song writer.
Blessings, and soldier on,
Bob Blackshear
We play new songs at shows and make changes based on the audience reactions. It's the ultimate test market. If the energy in the room dies when we play the new song we know we need to keep working at it.
Good, constructive critique is not always easy to get. There are some other writers I may discuss songs and songwriting with, but mostly it's the response from fans and friends that give some indication. I'm an acoustic singer/guitarist often performing solo or with a small band, and what's important to me is to catch an interest and hold the attention, have someone listening to my voice and the words throughout.
Listening to others' songs and reflecting upon if and why they work for you as a listener can be a good way to learn to look at your own work as your own critic. Workshops etc may be good to learn the tools for analysing, how to dissect a set of lyrics, but personally I think you should be aware of the risk of getting too mainstream. What the broad majority seems to like may not be what you're aiming for. Doing everything by the songwriters' schoolbook may put you in danger of becoming redundant. Personality and originality is everything, probably more today than ever. Listen to people who seem to understand what you're doing, who seem to be the natural audience for your material.
I have some songwriting friends that know me well and give good feedback. This can be done in many ways, like over internet forums. I also do FAWM (www.fawm.org) every year.
Hank Williams would ask everybody - even non-musicians. This worked well for him. And I have been to a couple of song circles where I have gotten some good suggestions. But I see music as time travel. It is a CONSTANT push to move from the moment of execution to the instant of perception. I believe MOST of the songwriters I admire and seek to emulate have reached a point where they know that MUCH of their own magic - greatness as artists - lies in the utter conviction of the execution of that moment. The opinion of someone NOT inside the emotional source from which the beauty originated will, in all likelihood NOT add anything - and may actually detract from the result. What if someone told Neil Young he should lower the key of his songs so he wouldn't have to sing in that nasal falsetto? Picture an unknown Tom Waits on American Idol. Feedback is good - up to a point. That point is realizing there is an artist you are meant to be, and you need to give yourself over to TRUSTING the all-encompassing spirit of who that artist is. When we reach that state of self-confidence in our music we won't need the validation of someone w/ a different agenda. The best songs (to my ears) come from someone who has learned to connect their inner spirit w/ the whole of the universe and the songs they make vibrate w/ THAT energy. Am I there yet? Nope. But in seeking to connect what is best and unique about my music w/ the philosophies of great artists who always stayed true to their vision - and who I'm sure don't ask for much feedback anymore - I'm on my way to being the artist I'm meant to be. Hank Williams was amazing as well.
http://www.myspace.com/camphoodstudios
For me what works is to talk about the song topics in conversations aside from letting people hear just the plain music before vocals added... if that helps.
I play my new stuff for the general public and my friends & never really get constructive analyses at all. It seems like my stuff is largely misunderstood and I just force it out there. It did not matter - I was mainly pissed at the majority of voters all during the Bush years! I was out to shock mthrfckers anyway! There was no way my stuff was going to get signed or anything. But these days there are a few rewards for sticking it out back then. It just depends on whether you are going for mass appeal or a more ANTI-POP approach.
I usually post it online and I have a certain website I look at for feedback. They are really mean spirited individuals who listen to my music, and so if I get any love there whatsoever, I see that as positive...haha!
The songs I have written in past ten years have been for recordings by two different singers using mostly the same backing musicians in the studio. I create a scratch track with another musician and get his feedback and more often than not, the song undergoes some change at that point, at least a change in how I had it arranged. Then, when the singer hears it, it is usually accepted or rejected with few, if any other changes. During rehearsal, the other musicians may suggest minor changes, again, usually just in how it is arranged or the rhythm or tempo. Their ideas for lyric changes are almost always bad and I usually ignore those suggestions. Once we get to the studio, the producer, singer and other musicians give their input after hearing a more or less final version and the songs that everyone agrees are best for the project are accepted and the others not used for the album. I often rework the rejections, sometimes using as little as a couple lines of the lyric for another song. The rejections are kept in my notebooks along with other song ideas and unfinished songs.
Lately when I finish a song, I put it on a video also and place it on my You Tube site. The downloads gives me some idea about how well I fared on the song.
It depends what your aim is. Are you trying to please everyone? Anyone? Are you a lone warrior passionately holding fast to your artistic integrity or are you gunning for the middle in a desperate fit of mediocrity?
For myself, when I ask for feedback I've probably pretty much finished and I'm trying to gauge reaction more than glean suggestions. I might act on criticism like "the intro is to long" or the guitar sound is really annoying" but really, I'm not trying to write songs by committee - it's my work and you either like it or you don't.
Having said that, like others I've had really valuable feedback on garageband.com
Even if you don't intend to change a damn thing about your song it's interesting to hear what other people like and dislike about it. You get these interesting demographic quirks, for example you might post a song that Norwegians just love and everyone else hates.
That kind of info is way more meaningful to me than "you should repeat the chorus at the end to make it up to 3 minutes".
I sent an email to CDBaby after someone made the first purchase of some music, I wanted to thank them.
The reply was something to the extent, 'great, we like to know that everything is working'
huh ?
that is like not reassuring at all
(...fabled borscht-baker)
I use a few close friends for feedback and always welcome constructive criticism.
Music being so subjective it's hard to distance yourself as a writer/composer to a listener on your own music in order to have an objective opinion.
What I like to do before I invite others for a listen is to walk away from it for a while and then come back to it. If the song still evokes an emotion with a clear lyrical message, it gives me the confidence that I have captured the essence of the song.
I think that in the end any piece of music is subjective. Also, I've had the experience of having friends of different tastesand expertise including musicians and dancers listen to my rough mixes. I usually filter out the criticism that stems from the roughness of the mix -- i.e. I try not to get irritated by those comments and yet engage the deeper comments.. I think being honest to oneself is key to making good music but also these kinds of trial exercises give us the chance to gauge ourselves in terms being in touch with the society we're living in.. are we reflecting a message that resonates with people or is it about a personal journey?
Check out my "Message" song/video on YouTube ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMWiH_dlAeg
The best feedback is almost always audience response at a show. Sprinkle a new original in between a couple standard covers. If there's no "letdown" in the momentum of the set, that's a good sign. If the original garners some applause, even better. If the surrounding covers DON'T garner applause, better still.
You can often even tell the weak points in a new song by closely watching people's reactions. Is there a point in the song where they seemingly lose interest and/or look away? THERE is your problem spot.
The only other method to get true feedback is to play it for a professional whose judgement you fully trust. But I'll take 5 "auditions" at a gig over 1 professional's opinion any day of the week.
The absolute WORST judge is your family. In most cases they will simply not be able to be objective.
There is no substitute for trotting the song out into the real world. If it resonates with me... meaning I come back to it... remember it... want to play it... Then I'll play it for friends, family, other musicians, and at gigs. I know one mistake I've made is record songs before they've had a chance to live and breath... as in... playing them live... with different arrangements... you tend to find out the lasting power and core of what makes the song... sometimes lyrics fall away as un-necessary and you realize that only a couple of verses were needed and the chorus's really could all be the same. OK, that's enough for now. Derek, thanks for doing this...
i put it on myspace or youtube and see what kind of response it gets...there's way too many songwriters.
After I write a piece of music, I put it away for a few weeks or months. When I come back to the music, I almost always find things that need to be refined, so I make changes in those places. This process is repeated until I can no longer hear the need for change. At this point, I feel the music is ready to be heard by others. Hopefully, it will be appreciated, but if not, I won't make any more changes.
When we perform we solicit feedback as well as friends.
bob
Oh, on the "Arnold Schwarzenegger" rhyme, I like it when people choose another syllable to rhyme than the last - e.g. don't even try to rhyme the "egger", rhyme the "oldschwarz" instead.
Eminem is a master of this trick.
The one thing that never fails is playing a new song at a show. I had a song I was convinced was a hit. Played it live 3 times, and received a lackluster response. That says it all. If hundreds of people in a club don't like it, chances are millions of people around the world won't like it either.
Hi Derek,
I will try to develop the song as far as I can then ask my children what they think... I will take note of childrens opinions more than adults. As for industry specialists - I don't pay much attention to what they write or say because I find they will nearly always be listening out for something or over analysing.
If I am truely happy about how far I can take it then I punt it out and move on to the next one...
Well, this thread is so long my comment probably won't even get read but. I have 2 full length CDs out. I used to pubmit alot of songs to garageband but the feedback was more often stupid and irrelevent than good, so I get my wife's and 27 year old son's opinions and that's it. I ask them to listen to the mix, volume of the parts, clarity, not necessarily the venue. And as said before, if I'm really happy with the song, it's done!!! Thanks for asking Derek...
When I write I am making art. My art is best when unfiltered.
Therefore I play it for anyone who wants to hear it but my motivation is not feedback, I just want to share it with them. Why would I ask anyone's opinion on art I'm making? This isn't a group project for me.
here's a good description of how I write a song. Feedback? I'm my hardest critic! If the song passes the truck test, it's probably a good one:
http://latejoysblog.blogspot.com/2008/08/how-i-wrote-song-bloody-little-numbers.html
Play a new song you have written
to a live audience. Don't mention that you wrote it and find out the re-action. If it attracts no attention, maybe you should rewrite it.That will assure an honest opinion.
I usually turn to pros if I think I have a great song. I ask for suggestions to improve the song. Specific: Does the chorus or hook works for them too? Any words that sounds bad? Suggest synonyms! How does the variations in the energy of the song works? Suggest improvements. How about intrumentation? Will less be more? Has the song an exciting dynamic structure? What do they think will improve that? Do they get any other ideas? New or altered lyric lines? Any ideas about artist or group to perform the song?
If you get a reaction from the audience and they are intrigued - you've got yourself a good song. If you love to perform it - you've got yourself a great song!
Had a nightmare about Arnold Schwarzenegger,
spent the next week on life support in the
endless arms of Marigold Moonraker,
riding in her new gold Porsche
It is a fairly intimate process, and process is perhaps not the most adequate word because it suggests some kind of method.
I like to take things to an almost final stage before showing them to other people. There's some people around to whom I look for feedback but I'd rather not let them know themselves how important that is. It is very often people who do not care much for what I do and who have totally different tastes than those of mine. Very rarely they are musicians.
Also, it is not much about what is told but how it feels to share a listen. To do it with the type of stuff I do can turn out to be quite embarassing. It is not good time music and it is all about to translate a very personnal take on aesthetical issues. Both words and music should convey a "texture", a different type of thickness in the air.
Probably the best way of checking things is to perceive how collaborators react. Nowadays, with the available technology, it is tempting to write songs alone, to play almost all instruments, not allowing external influences. Here, even if arrangements are laid, I'd rather give them to someone else who can make something out of them than to work solely on my own. Same with producing/mixing/mastering stages. At least on the technical level you may only learn from the experience.
Finally, as important as feedback may be, it is fundamental to not allow it to stand on the way. Not if you somehow know what you want. Not when you are somehow lost inside it (it is part of this craft). Especially not if you know that what you're doing is NOT supposed to be ruled by market laws.
I write first of all to please myself. I HAVE COPYRIGHTED more than190 songs, but have recorded only 36. I am self critical to an extreme. For example: I have only recorded one cover , Bob Dylan: Buckets Of Rain. Because it was right. Therefore, I am happy with what I have recorded so far. I have heard many song writers say they never listen to what they have recorded: BS! Listen to every song I record, and I like, sometimes love them all. Love what you do ,or do not record. Derek, thank you for all the opportunities to express what we as songwriters go through to reproduce ourselves.
I
I don't know of anything on the internet. Basically I put it out to friends. I've been a member of Taxi for several years but have some problems with them. Although,I will say that much of my writing improvements have come from Taxi suggestions.I know there are some music organizations that will preview songs but I haven't researched that option.
I don't really worry too much about feedback. I write, record and play the songs that I feel good about and that has always worked out well for me. My girlfriend always gives pretty honest feedback though, even if I sometimes completely disregard it in favor of my own opinion of a song! I'm also a pretty harsh critic of myself.
I don't ask for opinions but I usually get them anyways! There is so much that one person may think is the coolest thing they've ever heard while another person may think is the worst! Write what you like and hope for the best, that's the only way a true reflection of your singular person will shine through. Now I offer classes on songwriting along with my music lessons and I can teach a basic method to arrange your song but in the end the final product is in your hands. Use what's in your heart and go with the feeling over thinking it out every time.
Traditional marketing says, "Get feedback from your test market," but I'm weird because I just let the public decide with their wallets. Basically, I write from the heart, and I write what I want. I don't want to sound like a clone of someone else. Ironically, though, I've been dubbed "The American Enya," so go figure!
I sometimes play a completed song for someone and not tell them it's mine. If they like it they almost always say isn't that a so and so song or didn't that band do that number. I've got some really honest reactions.
I worked for Tree publishing which is now Sony/ATV as a songplugger and writer back in the 80's. The one thing that was lacking for the up and coming writers was a "live" experience where they were requirred to perform their songs in a live setting. Now as a singer/songwriter it's the best way for me to see how the audience reacts to my songs.
That's funny question for me... because I stop writing songs with word around 10 years ago. My English when I compare it with my Russian is not good at all... But I still write songs all the time. Just with no words - music will say everything I wanted to say with words. I really don't care who thinks what about my songs. But I like to play them. I would play new song for my family and friends, I don't want their opinion, but when I do it I can feel music in different way than I'm just with myself. Then if it is appropriate I pay this music at my gigs with the full loud sound and then I have another feeling of music. Sometimes it lead me to some changes, but in general I rely on my feelings, not somebody else. In the past I was a member of different songwriters clubs, and we had a sessions with opinions, discussions etc, - lots of fun! I would love to recreate FUN of it! But not critique... Yeah! If we want to improve something - we should LOVE THE WAY HOW to do it. Process, communications. (not "result oriented" process - usually will lead you nowhere.
Anyway that is what I think and it is good for me and maybe useless for somebody else.
Good luck everybody!
You know, I used to to song workshops and realized that most of the people there were little parrots quoting the irrellevant "amazing truths" of their misguided teacher.
I since then don't give much of a grain of salt's interest in what they have to say or friends. I go by my gut, and it's good enough.
Occasionally, I'll let a producer slip some advice my way, but usually, I find if the song works for me, it works for everyone else.
The feedback route is a dead end circular road of confusion.
Only if the person you're getting feedback from is truly gifted will it get you anywhere, and only then, if they understand your song.
I think if you have studied your craft and done it long enough, you will know enough to not need the blind to lead the blind, as most of the people who claim to be songwriters or even songwriting instructers are really clueless wannabees.
Hi Derek, I've put a few tunes on www.garageband.com. I prefer to play songs live and see if the audience connects. I also like to bring the song into practice with the band; if they begin finding parts and playing along, I'll keep it. If they ignore it, I figure it doesn't grab them so I take it back and rework it until I get a better reaction.
Dear Derek,
Opinions mean nothing unless they are coming from a season songwriter/composer with real credits to his or her name. It is obvious that if you have attended Berklee College of Music you probably have a strong music theory background. Instead of looking for opinions you should concentrate on your own ability to write strong lyrics and compose good music. My teachers always said simplicity and tastefulness is the key to a great record. Good luck in your song-writing and listen to your own soul.
I started to write music, in 2000, to a major label. All my music was rejected, for one year. Since then I have 36 national releases with them. My last song was excepted, it took me 9 months to perfect one song! Now in Feb 2009, its on there new album. Dedication is the secret, never give up!!
When I play a song for anyone else, it is already finished in the sense that it is a playable song that I would perform in front of an audience. If someone has a comment I listen, and I have occasionally followed someone else's advice to alter a lyric or change the order of verses.
I never ask anyone's opinion or seek advice unless there is a specific question that I am unsure of. That happens, but not often.
As far as showing a work in progress to someone goes, remember the old adage: Never show unfinished work to a fool.
Why to ask anybody to comment? My pieces are to be different from any other already made, and people are thirsty to listen new music. The common ones, we can find on radio!
In case a piece has weak technical points, professional musicians will complain anyway.
I live in Chicago and have gone to the Old Town School of Folk Music for formal feedback. I decided to take private songwriting lessons for the specific purpose of having my music critiqued. I worked really hard and feel my songs are better for it. Other Chicago songwriters I know have taken group critique classes at the OTS and have found that to be beneficial.
As the sole songwriter for our band, after I'm finished writing a song I'll sing it for the band with just an acoustic guitar. If they like it, we go from there with bass and drums. We'll start playing it live (as an acoustic three-piece) until it's time to record it. Once we get into the studio to record the song, I'll add more instrumentation. Sometimes I'll know what I want to add before we start, but mostly that's done 'in the moment.' A couple of times that has completely changed the song altogether.
Never stopping, indeed the secret.
I write in my home studio using an old ADAT 8 track and mix to a CD burner. When I have the basic song complete, I do a rough mix and share it with two friends. My wife and the VP of my record label.
They are both very supportive and 9 times out of 10 give me a positive review. I don't recommend workshops or looking for critiques of your songs. I recommend writing, writing and more writing.
Eventually you will start to save more songs than you trash.
Keep On Writing,
Nelsen
Every time I've tried collaboration, the song looked like a camel does (designed by a committie)- If one is honest with himself, you know in your soul if the song is good or not. But just to make sure I run a new tune past my wife. I can tell by her eyes if it is any good. It must work, since I have had over fifty tunes coverd. No brag just fact.
I use Garageband.com and get reviews from around the world. To be able to put song on the site, you have to review anonymous songs. Your review is also review by other members. We are always very surprised to see which songs make it to the top of the ratings. Also, most of the reviews are by other musicians/songwriters. Check out what I mean...
http://www.garageband.com/artist/shift_7
http://www.garageband.com/artist/tlg_project
I generally would NOT showcase a
song I am working on until I am comfortable it is legally protected.
I don't record without first copyrighting.
Therefore , my work is done in isolation but I do play things for
my students some time that I'm working on.
Feedback occurs after publication
for me. The actual creation process for me is bliss and I care little if others like or don't like what I do, what's important is did I create original art I am
happy with or not.
Other people's opinions may not be valid indicators of truth , since they may or may not be listening
subjectively to what you create. Perhaps they may judge you on the inferiority and lack of their own creativity . Truth still shines -
if you are creating art and are a good writer it will prevail.
If your work is really superior , your peers may in fact react negatively to your work out of their own insecurity and lack
of ingenuity.
Your ego can destroy your spiritual connection to the sublime powers that help your create. The act of creation to me is spiritual, I am humble, and realize I am part of a universal flow in time and space. Our lives are grains of sands in this ocean and clinging to your ego is an illusion and lie. Free your self from ego , and creative bliss is yours.
When my song and/or art is to be born, only then will it be ready for popular consumption. You can feel it in your bones....I have never taken my songs outside for someone to critique. They do not know what original source has brought the song to life for me. Everyone has a bias, if it's not theirs, then it's not going to be yours. When songs are in the incubator of development, only God knows where it’s going to end up. Whenever the song is now to get out of its incubator, I will take it to my studio for recording and after it's well crafted, and ready for the public, then I will I allow others to listen to it. By then the baby is born and no one can kill it [i.e., the vision from which came the song idea].
I go straight to the most critical, musically-educated, no BS person I know.
It has taken years for me to find this guy. He's different because he doesn't care if his opinion hurts my feelings or not.
90% of the material I present to him is criticized to one degree or another. The other 10% is judged less harshly, but he will say something like, "I would like to hear some guitar riff in this section." etc.
This guy opens my eyes to a lot of things I invariably overlook in the heat of giving birth to my latest and cutest new "baby".
Do I incorporate ALL of his feedback and immediately go back to the drawing board?
Nope.
Instead, I leave his house feeling a touch deflated, yet energized to know my abilities as a songwriter are proven and I've got it all over him in the overall scheme of things.
Rather, "my critic" is a sounding board that represents the general, cd-buying, downloading public. After all, why write something for an audience of 1?
Bottom line, if my critic doesn't connect with what I'm trying to universally communicate, then he's probably right most of the time.
The best advice ever given to me still holds water. Write what you know, don't write anything that you don't want to really happen and if you can't explain your song in one sentence..re-think what you are trying to say.
Don't be afraid to submit your songs to real publishers. Real publishers are in this for one thing, making money. Most publishers hear hundreds of songs a week and can spot a good one when they hear it. Most publishers will be dead honest and give you a critique that is constructive and will help you write that hit song.
Write, re-write and write again. Don't try writing a masterpiece just write and the masterpiece will come to you.
When I do a new song, my family and good friends are the first to hear it. I put the new song on cd or bring them in my studio for a listen.
Later on in the process when I'm finished with lyrics (if there are some) and the production is well advanced, I like to play it in parties and that..in between other music..without notice and I wait..will there be comments or will it go unnoticed..
Since I write, mix, produce, sing and does the mastering, in order to achieve objectivity, I do listen to my work a lot, in many places with many different people having different musical tastes.
If I like it, that's the sole reason for working on a new song and I consider that's good enough!
The feedback are little bells to keep the production process objective and solidly anchored in
achieving the best quality I can.
Marcomé
http://Marcome.com
I probably shouldn't reply but--since we never work from charts and are completely improvisational jazz/fusion and lyrics, if any, are added when they work with what's happening, we don't have to deal with the song writing process. We do record our sessions though and work over the results till we have listenable "songs" of varying length and complexity. We often play CDs of these pieces for friends and other musicians and use their comments to further work over the music before we issue the CD. Sometimes we record live performances and with just a little remixing, put them on CDs and sell them pretty much as is. It just depends on the music and where and how it was recorded. We never play a song more than once and our recordings are the only proof they ever existed.
Typically I play it for a friend without necessarily heavy music knowledge (on acoustic guitar) just to see if they "like" it.... then if it ultimately passes the ranks of the band and/or other collaborators that is another level... then I play roughs for some other industry friends who'll tell me if its working or not. Then after its mixed and mastered, I play it for others still before being sure I want it released. Its a process....
Most of my songs are genre-specific, or I have another artist in mind when I write the song, and imagine them doing a version of it. Its just a technique I learnt while working for a publisher here many years ago.I will run new songs past the band members, my partner who has a well-educated ear, and a writing buddy who I have been working with for years. No-one is above criticism, nor should they be if they are serious about a 'persuit of excellence' in their songs. I well remember the story of McCartney turning up at Lennons place wth 'yesterday', and asking John "have you heard this before somewhere???" He had the strength of character to ask the question! Cheers, RW.
I send it to some of my friends in the online radio world. They are good about giving me feed back.Like my title track "Auburdeen" from my upcoming CD. I first sent it out to the pirate radio network and it became the most requested song for two weeks in a row on one of the stations.
I do a few things, depending on my mood and feeling for the song itself. I write mainly instrumental too. That may be important to some of my reasoning....
I have a set 3 or 4 folks that I run new stuff by to get a feel of how I'm doing. They've known me long enough not to hold back criticism, so I'm overjoyed when they like it, and moody and depressed when they don't! But writing instrumentals makes me want to be sure I'm conveying certain emotions without words, if that makes sense. So, when they catch on to my idea, I love it, when they get something else or more out of it, I love it even more.
That's usually what happens in the initial stages of a song. After I've revised edits, etc. I open up the critique to about 5-10 more folks. I have a "panel" of about 40 people who follow my work closely, and a large part of my success is due to them. I alternate who gets to listen to what, but my initial listen is always the same folks.
My panel consists of folks from every walk and age of life. I figure if I can touch the panel in some way, then I can touch a larger populous. Rarely do I just "go for it" without someone listening first.
The one thing I've learned though, is that critiques are merely opinions. I do not change anything that takes the meaning of the song away from me. I'd rather it be a hit just to me if someone thinks I should change something that takes what I wrote it for to the wrong place.
This might be way out there, but with "professional" critiques, you have to think of it like this, "Someone's trash is someone else's treasure." I've had many songs looked over because some screener didn't like it, only to be picked up elsewhere perfect as is. So that's why you should be careful with critiques. Don't change a thing if it doesn't feel right to you!
Well after I have writen some basic layout of the song. I will usually take my acoustic and play it live at places like starbucks or books a million. Just where ever people hang out. This gives me a feel of how it will affect others.
Jeff
singletonjeff.com
It is always good to get feedback from other people who won’t try to spare you but to be honest. But when all is said and done the writer will have to make the last call. Whether to change and improve the song according to the critics or to leave it the way it was. A good song will have a catchy hook to the song that you can walk away humming whether you know the words or not but the melody will keep on lingering in your mind. This may be even for the people who hear the song for the first time. Also songs which are written and delivered from the heart tend to be the best songs. Thanks Derek for keeping us going...
My experience in the industry has taught me that the best feedback you'll ever get is from the artists or songwriters who are where you'd like to be. You'll always get better advice from someone who has some real skins on the wall. They don't have to be famous and are more accessable than you might think. Try to put yourself in their path. Work in recording studios, work for a record company - hey go play for your local church especially those that do contemporary services. You can't imagine the talent and experience some of those good church-going folks have. Ask lots of questions and listen to those answers - even if they're painful. The only caution I would give you is to never take any advice that tells you to be vague about what you're trying to say. Some people think they're helping you by trying to get you to be more relatable. The truth is, mean what you say and say what you mean. Of course, look for the best way to convey your message or story. But don't be vague. People want to hear songs they can relate to. When you're too vague - no one will know what you're trying to say.
Len
Hi Derek,
For feedback (1)I take a tape to a Connecticut Songwriters Association Meeting for the monthly critique session (2) I have submitted songs to NSAI for monthly critique and (3) I post the song on Garageband.com for listeners to comment.
If you want to sell the song to an artist or publisher in general, get industry critiques. Keep in mind certain peoples' qualifications could be cookie-cutter and safe in order to appeal to the masses. If you write songs because you need to express yourself and aspire to your musical heroes, then satisfy yourself only.
The best thing I've done is to whip out the new number at a live show WITHOUT announcing that it's new or original. As for intimate revelations of new material, choose your listeners carefully--other songwriters, if possible. But never in workshops. I HATE songwriter workshops. They're exercizes in navel-gazing, poorly moderated for the most part and usually involve exposing your stuff to people who'll never get beyond a workshop as a venue, and they're gonna take their frustrations out on you.
I am setting up my website now. On that site the question of how people like a song or not is given. Hopefully if there are enough opinions presented I will be able judge the worthiness of a song. Unfortunately, I am not a good judge myself.
It is always good to get feedback from other people who won’t try to spare you but to be honest. But when all is said and done the writer will have to make the last call. Whether to change and improve the song according to the critics or to leave it the way it was. A good song will have a catchy hook to the song that you can walk away humming whether you know the words or not but the melody will keep on lingering in your mind. This may be even for the people who hear the song for the first time. Also songs which are written and delivered from the heart tend to be the best songs. Thanks Derek for keeping us going…
I belong to Taxi and Tunesmith. That's usually the first place I go when I think it's pretty close. Of course I expect a brutal critique; I wanna be a better songwriter right? I'll take bits and pieces of advice and re-write til I think it's better and start all over. SOmetimes I'll scrap the song, sometimes I'll just release it on my own CD! Haha. When you're the artist you can write your own ticket. LOL!
I play it at shows and see if it gets a reaction, but usually I know if it's good or "finished" by giving it a few week's rest then revisiting it. If I like it's good and done. If something bugs me I tweak at it, perform it live again, etc. That process continues along with band feedback until the song is done.
I ask my wife, who is very honest and hard on my stuff.
I send out to my website list, and occasionally get nice comments.
And I constantly beat myself over the head with a loaf of bread because I'm not good enough, so I'll get better.
Hi Derek!
I guess I have my own critque team with a 3 step plan. My kids range in age from 9-14. Step 1: I've learned to put my music to the test by playing a new song in private in another room and if the kids start pouring in then I know I've got something that has caught their attention. They are quite honest and my 14 year old has had some great pointers! Step 2: Then I watch and listen for the next hour to see if any of them are humming, or singing a line from my song. If they do, then I know I have a catchy line. Step 3: The real test comes later at night with my husband. If he's laying in bed trying to get to sleep but can't because he's got one of my chorus' running through his head I know I'm finished. LOL
It really depends on why the song was written. If it contains something that you feel needed to get outside of you, and you feel you've done that successfully, then there is no need for feedback.
If it was written specifically for a commercial,then you will get feedback from everyone, whether you want it or not.
The purpose of most songs falls somewhere in between these two extremes. Your approach should reflect that. If what you're writing needs to reach and be understood by others, then you have to take that into account. You need to walk the line between artistic self-absorption ("I wrote this so it must be great") and crass commercialism ("Let's write about depression - kids like that.")
The main - the only - reason songs should exist is to make people feel or realize something. And that can range from "I feel good" to "That changed my life." Any criticism or feedback that helps you achieve those goals is good. Any that squeezes the life out of a song for the sake of an intellectual musical exercise, is bad.
Songs can be like butterflies; living things that move about, constantly changing direction. Good feedback helps you build a butterfly garden. Bad feedback helps you pin them down.
To me, writing songs has always been a private endeavor. I think it depends on what you are going for because what you want out of a song may not be what someone else wants out of it. Someone else might want to hear a "hit" song while you are more interested in writing a jazz song or some other genre that maybe doesn't follow a hit song formula.
I have found it helpful to learn other artist's songs that I like and seeing if I can expand on what they've done or incorporate some of what I've learned into a new song.
It's really difficult to get honest feedback outside of a workshop setting. Sometimes playing live, people will clap out of politeness whether the song is good or not. As far as internet goes, it's very difficult to get any kind of in-depth analysis of your song - usually you just get one or two lines about how it sounded great or they liked it or didn't like it and that's about it.
I pay VERY close attention to the reviews I receive over at Taxi.com. When I'm in the process of writing/recording a song I'll use the custom critique feature for $20. It's very IN DEPTH and helps you identify ways to improve your song. I'd like to start using it 2-3 times per song (twice while in the writing/recording process and once on the final mix/production). It's incredibly helpful AND it gives you a better chance of having your songs FORWARDED. Taxi rules.
I know I'm on to a good lyric or melody / arrangement when it makes me laugh out loud. It just happens, a phrase comes out or I stumble into a melody line or chord progression, and laughter wells up in me all of a sudden. In the final analysis, what's most important to me is that I like the song so much that I want to play and sing it over and over because it makes me feel something. I figure then that if it makes me feel something, it'll probably make someone else somewhere feel something too. Then once I've taken it as far as I can, I'll run it by my band mates who are very good at offering constructive criticism, feedback, suggestions to make it better. Email is great for this with mp3 files. If their suggestion results in a change to the lyrics or melody, or a new arrangement idea that creates a new feel for the song, then it becomes a co-write.
I am a producer I dont write songs, but I do need feed back on my music.
So my aproach is more on uploading songs, on my website and getting feed back.
The true testing ground is the audience and their reaction. The really good songs I write go over well, even in the "cover hungry bar crowds," or may get the cook to stop what he's doing and come out and listen in the quiet, "un-plugged" venues. It starts with your own sense of what is good or right. Then if I'm lucky, and I have an attentive audience, and "I'm in the flow" so to speak with the song; delivering it the way it should be delivered, the audience will let you know.
I've never been to a writing workshop and through that process with writing critics. I'm sure it has tremendous value. But the Beatles were rejected all over England before they were successful. It was the small Liverpool clubs where they connected first. Aloha Derek
Do I like it-Yes?
What could I add to it (Mid 8/bridge/key change/weird noises/backing vox)?
2 WEEKS LATER-do I like it?
JOB DONE!!!!!
(SOMETIMES IF no-one LIKES IT-IT'S A GROWER
I often record new songs-in-the-works on a little recorder and listen back...then I get ideas...it's good to get good feedback...and listen to great songs...things like pre-choruses are good...the recording process is often half-writing/editing too..
At this point in my career, I rarely go to others specifically for feedback or criticism. I've gotten enough royalties AND praise, criticism, analysis and hostility over the last 30 years (paid and unpaid) to know what to look for when I'm developing the song and when I'm playing the song for people and gauging their reactions.
Nowadays I prefer a more organic approach.
If you are submitting your music to anyone, make sure you identify yourself as copyright owner.
Anyone who wants a writer's money to critique their song is simply in business to take money from songwriters; USUALLY because they are not collecting any royalties on their own songs. BE WARY OF EXPERTS.
I once recorded my own versions of some well-charted songs from the 70s and submitted them for "critique" They came back with all kinds of suggestions for changing the bridge, removing lines of lyrics, changing the music, etc.
A critic is NEVER going to tell you it's ready. If it was, you wouldn't need them and they couldn't make any money.
I suppose everyone should try a song-critique once or twice, but then, LEARN songcraft and critique your own work. Learn how to pay attention to your audience (that is, if you're writing for them.)
If you're not writing for your audience, and you're doing it for yourself, then leave your songs the way they are and don't get upset if they grind coffee or people walk out during your tender ballad about breaking up via txt msg.
If everybody in the band is happy with what we got, we roll with it. Never opposed to hearing opinions, but usually go with our gut feeling on each song.
I don't bother asking anyone what they think. Frankly, I don't care.
I would get nowhere if I lingered in the opinions of others. Which, by the way, are so subjective it aint funny. So, I write stuff for me. Songs that I would listen to even if somebody else wrote them.
However, there are times when I write what I consider experimental garbage. The equivalent of musical flatulence. And shockingly there's always one or two cats who lap it up. That satisfies and confuses me at the same time.
I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter. There will always be an audience for what you put out there.
Unless you want to make serious money for a sustainable period of time. Then you need to worry what others think. Sad, but true.
I test my songs out three ways:
(1) I chart them out, take them to the gig, and have my band play them. Then I get the band's feedback and I talk to audience members (fans) about the new song;
(2) I have a 16 year-old son, who is both a very dedicated musician (in a different genre altogether from me) and the most honest person I have ever known. I play it for him, and I get an honest and critical opinion.
(3)I record the tune in a studio. If I can stand to listen to it, after putting hours of work into recording it and getting it ready for listening, then I know the song is good.
But as a general rule, if I feel strongly about the song and take pride in it, then I know at least someone out there will also hear its message.
I am somewhat of a novice at writing songs. The other day I showed my producer/coach a parody I wrote. She critiqued it without me even asking. When I mentioned that I was planning on putting the words up on my web site, she advised me never to post or publish any song on the internet or otherwise before it has been critiqued and polished.
Getting Feedback On A New Song-
These are usually the steps I take if the opportunities are there. And if they aren't there, you need to be creative and work to make them available.
1) Record a quality demo of the song
(recording always gives you a better idea of flow and energy)
2) Play the demo to people and watch their reaction. (if they don't react the way you imagined, you need to ask questions and go back to the drawing board)
3) Perform the song live to as many people as possible while you are still excited about the song.(remember, when go see live music you get goosebumps and react when something moves you. Other people are no different... they will let you know if you've done it.)
4) Start a FREE blog or comment page online, post the song and let people leave anonymous comments about your track.
Hope this helps!
Best,
Edgel G.
www.myspace.com/sundomingo
My songs are finished before I ask for critiques, but I'm still open to changing them. I got live feedback on one song at a workshop, but I felt people were afraid to say anything negative...or maybe they just really liked the song. I put my new songs on two songwriting sites which are set up for sharing critiques. My priority is to know whether the message and mood of the song came across to the listener, whether they liked it, and what stuck out as a problem for them. I try to listen to the music of each critiquer, so I know whether our tastes are similar or how skilled a songwriter the person is. I look for common responses. If 10 people have a problem with one line, I take it more seriously than if only one person mentions it. I never post a reaction to anyone's critique, and I thank every person who listens and responds. Honest feedback is hard to come by, so I sincerely appreciate the responses I get. I have some fans who like everything I write, but I know they would not tell me about the stuff they don't like, so I take it as a little positive feedback and don't give it too much weight. I don't find it helpful when someone critiques my song by completely rewriting it, or offering too many suggestions for how to fix it. I prefer they tell me what they object to, and let me find a solution from my own "voice." I appreciate people who give me a second round of feedback, so I know if the objection they raised got fixed for them or not. Knowing how the song is received is so valuable, and I am so blessed to have people who are willing to give me honest feedback, without being rude.
Ultimately it's how I feel about it that counts. But I do try it out at a local, supportive open mic and watch the audience reaction. Somehow I usually know beforehand though how it will be received.
I play the work for as many people as I can. It isn't usually their comments that advise me, it is what I hear them hearing. I have to be with them to hear the music, and something happens where I hear the music: an entirely new way - through their ears. This helps me get an objective handle, and then i start making the changes. Then i bring it back to these people and see their reactions. I continue to tweak until I hear them hearing it the way I hear it.
For me the feedback comes over time...playing it for bandmates and seeing which ones the love to play. I think when other people like to play it, it means they can feel the music, which an audience will pick up on. Though I love words, and love lyrics, that's really the second thing people pick up on if they ever do...the mood and rhythm have to come first. When other people brings songs to rehearsal, I know I love the song when I start closing my eyes when I play!
When I write a new song naturally I love it and along with the emotional rush I never really know if it stikes a nerve with others.
The only way I figure is how many hits it gets on www.myspace.com/johnphelpsband
I'd love to be in touch with a panel of strangers to critique my songs when they are new and still being tweeked.
I have a few regular gigs for groups that seem to enjoy, recieve and understand my tunes more than any others. So, many times I will present new songs to them before I perform them anywhere else. I can tell by their response and energy if it connects or not. If it does, I have a keeper.
Derek,
A songwriter I have a great deal of respect for once told me that a good songwriter spends most of his time rewriting. So I spend a great deal of time rewriting and editing my songs. I do a little bit of everything you mentioned because all have their advantages and their drawbacks, I have a group of professional songwriters, musicians and fans alike that critique my music. I also let songs "cook" a while before performing it in live shows. I like to see if the song has stood the test of time and I am able to critique my own music a little more objectively. One of the worst things a songwriter can do is put a song out before its finished.
I live in Columbus, Ohio today I am in Columbus, Georgia for a Brian White (SEASAC song of the year-2007 and many more)Pete Salis NSAI regional workshop (actually February 28th tomorrow).
I don't find friends too helpful for critiques, most of them don't want to hurt your feelings.
I see it as continuous improvement.
1. I belong to all three songwriting groups in Central Ohio. They are almost never kind and sometimes they come up with good ideas. (5 meetings a month). I have a song lyric being critiqued tonight even though I am 700 miles away--I had a friend take it in for me.
2. I use a paid advisor often. www.rickberesford.com (Teaches at Belmont College in Nashville and has several cuts). I have also used Pat and Pete Luboff on occasion.
3. I keep informed about who is looking for what (I subscribe to RowFax) so I don't waste too much time with my political angst songs http://taxtheworld.com
4. I put a lot of stuff up for review on SongRamp.com but they are mostly a polite cyber-clatch type thing. I think my stuff is pretty good but I have never had a criticism from anyone at SongRamp. But it is a great place for $33 a year to store stuff have a private listening room you can send a link to a plugger or A&R guy. Not everything I do is on SongRamp.com
5. I travel 402 miles to Nashville almost once a month and build relationships; go to publisher pitches at NSAI, etc. I will probably join TNSAI this year too, they meet at Belmont College.
6. Some stuff I just do for fun like "Bail Out Blues" but for serious stuff like my sooon to be posted rewrite (March 15th) of "Credit Card Junkie" I listen to the market and try to make sure it is relative to the listener. I also play the financial stuff at my speaking engagements (I am author of Good Debt, Bad Debt (Penguin, 2005).Other serious songs "I Like Me Best When I'm Next to You" and "West Virginia Skies" have a decent chance of getting cut. West Virginia Skies was written by me for two orphans. We want to use it as part of a college fund raiser for the kids.
http://myspace.com/hansondemo
7. Read, read, read. Write, write, write. I learned a ton from Steve Seskin at a two day workshop in Nashville (January). Sesking encouraged me to rewrite 50 percent of Credit Card Junkie.
8. Here is Seskin's advice on self-song critique: Every line should be as fun as the last line to sing. The song has to be appealing to the singer too. He looked at Credit Card Junkie and said these are great lines, but these, these, and these are not. Those are the ones I rewrote. He also didn't like something in the chorus and we are changing that too. He was brutally honest and I appreciated that.
9. I use the NSAI critique service too.
10. I am getting some indie airplay on a song now and the feed back from the actual public is valuable.
11. I make sure to have .wav files of the music only tracks so I can go back in the studio and have the vocalist redo something without paying for a new session. Just this week I had to go in and snip the word "yuppie" out of a song--several critiquers? thought the singer was saying "yucky." Saying yuppie wasn't helping the song so we just sniped it and remixed the edited lead vocal with minimal effort.
If you have not planned for rewrites and fixes after you operate the song for a month or two, you probably won't want to fix it and will start to compromise and tell yourself it's OK the way it is. This starts a vicious cycle, of frustration. If you can't take constructive critique and make changes you probably are not a songwriter serious about getting cuts and competing with the big boys (and girls).
Jon Hanson
www.gooddebt.com
www.myspace.com/hansondemo
JonHanson (on songramp.com
I play new songs for my wife and my 17 year old son, who also writes music. I would love a forum where I could get honest feedback about what works and what doesn't. I've gone to Songpull, but each person there is mainly interested in playing and leaving, not really interested in helping hone each other's work. I've entered songwriting contests; the judges have formulaic criteria (must be verse, verse, chorus, verse, chorus; is there a hook?) and don't have a sense of a song's aesthetic. If the song doesn't elicit some emotional response, it's just pap.
At the end of the day you can play your song for a few trusted friends and their opinions but what matters most is if deep down it's a song you want to play again and again and you know in your heart it's good. Very few pass this test.
I just tell people about it- hey listen to this- what did you like best about it? Sometimes the questions we ask can already be set up for a negative response- If someone were having a bad day & listened to your song in passing, or preoccupied as so many of us are today, & you asked "How did you like my song? They might say- it was ok- or fine just to get you to shut up without really having listened to it.
I think it is more valuable to ask those who love music & are connected to other bands to listen & offer feedback because they will really pay attention to the music. I'd rather have 7 people who really KNOW music listening & offering constructive criticism that blast 100 people that may not pay attention. The 7 will usually have a KNOWHOW & influence to saturate the market with the song if it is worthy of their professional time & reputation.
I've been writing for a long time and now when I get something new that I get a strong vibe from, I try to record it quickly (in a studio) and get a good arrangement down. I may add it to my set list at a performance if I really like it...or send it out for local airplay.
What do you do for feedback on a new song you’re writing?
Well the best songs I write and record are the songs that I get very much excited about them from begining.
Do you play it for a few friends, looking for praise?
I have stopped this after few albums in the past. No need for more ego speak.
Do you play it for a few friends, looking for criticism? (Really asking, “What don’t you like about it?”)
Do you upload it to your site, and email everyone you know, asking what they think?
I put my albums online for sale.
The best songs and albums are always those that people buy more
Kind of strange but it's true.
Do you send it to a company for paid critique?
Nope.
Used to send a lot of songs for companies in Israel in the past.
This made me less artistic in many ways.
But got some very good critiques from well established musicians.
Up to the pick level when you can say to yourself - "enough of this shit I can figure it out myself".
Do you have a songwriting teacher or mentor?
Nope.
When you get feedback, are you looking to change and improve your song?
I wrote too many songs so far.
I look for my own good feeling about the song.
And someone to buy it.
I ask music colleagues and my wife. She's a musician that tells the truth. I'll then try to improve or start from scratch.
My Mentors where CSN&Y,Jazz, Latin and old blues. I've learned to trust my own ears and if "I" like it ,thats all that counts. I have to live with it. Dallas W.Taylor
I've wrestled with this question for quite some time (10 years). And the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that critiques and/or feedbacks are, at best, arbitrary; like being the American Idol winner and, yet, it's the runner up that gets the record deal.
And, what about - for example - in the case of The Beatles' song Mr. Walrus, does anyone really believe that Lennon and McCartney should have included "coo, coo, c'choo", and if so, why? And, why not, "ta da, di dah", instead? Had they asked for a critique - from whom?
I would hazard a guess that what songwriters are really trying to do is ask "permission" if their songs ought to be sung! One often forgets that Lennon and McCartney did not write songs the audience liked; they wrote songs they liked. And we just happened to agree that we liked them too.
There's even an organization that purports to "help" artists reach the next level - all they ask is that you to pay them a fee to listen, and to critique, your song. Somebody's making a bloody lot of money from insecure songwriters. All I can tell is that the artist is helping THEM reach their next level - higher salaries, I presume. And had they been good at songwriting, WHY are they sitting behind a desk critiquing others - instead of joining the rest of us blokes who pay to have our songs critiqued, hmmm?
Now, thankfully, most people give free critiques as consumers - if they like it, they buy it. If not, they don't. So, write the song, burn a demo of the song, sing the song, and see if anyone wants to buy the song! Simple enough - or is THAT too complicated?
If i like the song well enough i will play it at my next gig and ask my followers for their attention to the song,and then ask how they like it.I
Not rocket-science, but we are fortunate to have a 15 year old daughter who is on a Music scholarship at her school. She is so GOOD at putting what I would put as criticism and be too heavy with phrases like
" [x] puts counter points on their pointer points, and forgets to keep going back to the melody".
I mean it shows an understanding of the way music is or can be put together, and is constructive as well as descriptive.
If i like the song well enough, i will play it at my next gig and ask my followers to listen attentively and give me their honest oppinion.Most of the time i can tell by their immediate response if its good or not...Carl
Early on, I went to some writing workshops. I found them good for gaining confidence in what I was doing, & sometimes humbling for what other folks were producing. But they're a sterile, 'safe' environment. The best feedback you get is from performing live. Whether people say anything or not you'll get an idea of how a song went over.
My routine with a new piece is to play it to death at home until I like it & I'm familiar with it. Then go present it somewhere. I make a point of announcing it's "the first time out for this one" - that can sometimes induce a comment. Or a frosty silence.
I am on DMusic.com exclusively for feedback. It is just about the oldest music site, since 1998. Everybody is very friendly and supportive and in good spirits. Also, songwriter101.com is a good resource for songwriters.
I'll bring a new song into rehearsal and we usually learn it that way, then we tear it apart and maybe add or subtract intros, solos and endings or add a bar here or there or a rest and then we nail it down and learn it that way . Once we know it and like it, we'll play it without any mention of who wrote it just to see what happens and when there is a great reaction we know it's ready to be recorded and we move on to the next piece or just drink some beer and jam !
What do I do ....?
Nothing. Bottom line- your song is you. All you will get by sending it out there for " feedback " is opinion ranging from " lousy to Ilove it " .
When it comes down to it the only person that must be happy with your song ....is YOU.
It never occurred to me to ask for feedback when I'm writing a song. That is sort of like asking someone if it's ok for me to think what I'm thinking, or if it's ok to say what's on my mind.
I generally keep it within the band. I write the music, so I'll email it to them and get their thoughts. I factor in their personal tastes vs what I was looking for out of the song. I know what they like, so I know how to interpret their opinion. Getting outside criticism is useless to me because that is all personal preference (unless you are talking about the quality of a mix or something). We post finished songs on Garageband.com and get reviews out of curiousity. One review says they love the vocals, the next says they hate them. One says they love the long drawn out intro, the next says the intro is too long. When you know nothing about your reviewer, that provides no value (for mod purposes anyway)
Generally, I trust my own opinion, because at the end of the day, I need to be happy with the song.
i usually just play the tune for other musicians who i work with. my wife is an opera singer and i respect her suggestions but i will always go with my musical instinct. no matter what.
I will usually ask someone in the family for feedback and ideas. Mostly I just slap a few tracks together and listen to it repeatedly. New ideas or changes occur after hearing it a hundred times or so.
At this moment, my mom and daughter are the only ones qualified to hear WIP early roughs since they know my catalogue complete and can weigh in best with that wide grasp of my intent. They also don't make any effort to genre-define my songs - if you know my music, you'll understand that point...
When songs are ready to go into mixdown, I'll get close friends to listen but only a few opinions per track -
- the biggest danger (dilution) is also the biggest potential blessing (influence) - overall, feedback will enhance your songs. But be ready to 'not' use someone's feedback too, and then live with that choice when it's mastered, because you'll hear all those suggestion voices in your head after it's too costly to re-mix and re-press...
I've personally never found a need for help to write or finish a song, ideas come pretty fast to me, too fast for me to catch all of them actually. Still, I look for co-writers in Citadel because I like the shared experience better than the one-person-does-all approach - but either way - writing is not a choice for me, it is what comes out whenever I'm near an instrument...pen pick paint photo pc...
Truth is, I most often let the silence that comes immediately after the part already written tell my ears what should come next - cliff jumping - my best hint toward what sound to make is the absence of sound and imagining what should fill it.
Thanks Derek, made me stop what I was doing and ponder again - when will I learn to spot your sneaky edification trickery in advance?
Love it!
Rejyna
Who could you ask to give a critique? Family? They'd tell you you're great no matter how crappy you are. Just check out the A.I. losers. Friends? Same thing, they wouldn't want to hurt your feelings if they thought your song was lacking. It must be anonymous or you won't get real feedback. Even then, it's simply an opinion. If you want REAL help improving a song, find your fave band on your same success level. A band who's songs you love and collaborate with the writer. Music is all opinion. Now if you want to sell a million records then something has to appeal to a lot of people but even then your song could suck. Think about some hits you've heard that just suck ass. You know what I mean.
Be true to yourself and write honestly and love your own songs and sooner or later "they" will see the light!
When I have finished a tune, I start to doubt if it's really finished or if I need to work more on it. I continue to work on it - only to find out that it was finished... I upload it to soundclick.com where I store all my tunes. I hope enough listeners will discover it and play it enough to make it climb in the charts. I seldom send out news letters, and I don't have enough fans to see any difference. Sometimes the tune will be discovered by listeners later. I hate promotion and don't like to invite others to listen to my music. This is probably why I haven't reached a bigger audience with my tunes. ...Or maybe my tunes SHOULD have been improved in the first place? ;o)
Nice question, Derek. From some of the answers I read I understand, that many are dependent on judgement "from outside". Sometimes songs are 'improved' to an extent where they don't sound nearly as good anymore as they did when the creator (writer, musician) thought it is perfect for him/her. I rather judge by myself, because if I do like it so much that my toes start ot tingle I do not need anybody else to tell me if he/she likes it or not. It is my energy of positive thought that made the song, and it is my positive delighted energy that brings it to those people who like it. If you show/play something to three different people you get - mostly - three different opinions. And that - most of the time - leads you astray.
First, I live with it and do my changes, make sure it says what I want it to. Second, we rehearse it and embellish it and if I can't sell the song to my guys we drop it into the "scavenge it pile". Next we add it to our 1st set every night- if people don't react well,depending on the tone of the song (slow -Fast, do they dance, sit there in amazement, or applaud), after a few tries we can it ! Workshops never work well they are full of politics and petty jealousys and partly the reasons we have so much garbage out there today, just my little ol' opinion. oh by the way the ones that fail I sell to American Idol, After all a pretty face can sell anything, just kidding Folks !!
We do a scratch recording of our music. From there we listen back to it as a group. Attempt to completely seperate ourselves from the song and create a list of our own critisism. Then we go back and adjust the song. From there we usually ask our friends what they think, at least the ones that will give us an honest opinion. Before we professionally record we give the producer all the songs we have on disc, ask him for suggestions on how to make them better and then choose which songs we want to continue with. I've learned it's ok to scratch songs. Not everyone is a hit.
Derek,
I'm always grateful for the questions you periodically make public, but I almost never find myself with much to contribute to the discussion. I just follow with interest.
This question is--these questions are--different, and I'm glad you asked because it is absolutely essential that songwriters learn to find honest, vigorous feedback on their works in progress. At least, it is absolutely essential to any writer hoping to do great work.
Here are my answers, which I hope at least a few other people will find relevant.
-Do you play it for a few friends, looking for praise?
Never. I do like hearing good things about my finished work, but not my works-in-progress. If I consider a work unfinished, it is because I feel there are parts left to improve. Praise alone does not make that feeling go away--it just gives me a reason not to do work that, when I'm being honest, I know needs doing.
-Do you play it for a few friends, looking for criticism? (Really asking, “What don’t you like about it?”)
Yes. But only for two friends in particular. These two friends are also songwriters, and they do better work than any other songwriters I've ever met. Better, in fact, than most of the songwriters on my iPod. Because I know and respect their work so much, these friends have two very important powers.
(1) When their are problems I'm aware of, I trust their solutions for fixing them.
(2) When there are problems I'm NOT aware of--for example, if I think the song is finished--I trust them when they say I'm wrong.
There's one principle at work here: If good enough for me, it's not necessarily good enough for them; if it's good enough for them, it's not necessarily good enough for me.
No song isn't done until all three of us are satisfied, or at least until I'm satisfied, and have considered my friends' points as honestly and openly as I can.
- Do you upload it to your site, and email everyone you know, asking what they think?
I tried this once. I posted a work in progress--just lyrics--to my band's blog, and asked for feedback in the comments. Here's the think to that post:
http://www.newneighbors.info/blog/?p=100
and to the post from a few days later, which contained a recording. (People were not comfortable judging just the lyrics.)
http://www.newneighbors.info/blog/?p=106
Mixed results. Some of the commentary seemed useful, other commentary was not. But the important lesson, I think, is that no one suggested anything my two friends didn't catch privately. And one listener explicitly mentioned that seeing this part of the process made him/her uncomfortable.
Still, this is all useful documentation if you're curious about how much the overall character of a song can change, just by transposing it, changing a verse or two, and approaching the vocal differently.
The final recording is here:
http://www.newneighbors.info/blog/?p=145
Really finishing the song took from November 2008 to February 2009!!
- Do you send it to a company for paid critique?
I do not. And I will not, unless you can show me a company whose employees are themselves making better songs than my two songwriting friends.
- Do you have a songwriting teacher or mentor?
Many! David Byrne, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Shostakovich, The Understudy, Dylan, and Mason Jennings are the writers I listen to most. But I can learn from anyone in any style who knows how to make honest work.
- When you get feedback, are you looking to change and improve your song?
Oh yes! I'm looking not just to change the song, but to change myself as a songwriter. I look at every song as a chance to (a) write the best song I've ever written, and (b) learn more about songwriting, so that I can do even better work next time. Obviously not every song I write ends up better than the songs that came before it, but I think I *do* become a better writer with each effort.
And that's the really fun part; that's why I keep making stuff, why I HAVE to keep making stuff. How much can I grow?
That's all I have time to write just now--I'm off to see David Byrne at Radio City!!!
See you soon,
Chris Frank
We are lovers so we have to be careful
Creating a song together can have its emotional lows and highs. But writing partnerships can be very productive, as is proven by history (Lennon & McCartney, Jagger & Richards, David & Bacharach etc). There seems to be something about the dynamic between two people that works very well when it comes to songwriting. Perhaps it is because there are two main elements in writing a song, namely the melody and the lyrics, unlike, say, a poem. This is why I would go as far as to say that many singer/songwriters are poets first and musicians second. In our writing relationship, I tend to come up with some lyrics and then present them to VIOLETTA and we work from there but it can work the other way round too. Because I write books as well, I tend to have lots of scribbled song lines hanging around. For VIOLETTA they seem to arrive in dreams. I never remember my dreams
A pen and paper by the bed is important. For the last album Unconditional Love, we were very fortunate to have a third partner in the mix, the very talented Catalan Jazz pianist Jaume Vilaseca and he arranged and contributed to the melodies and, when finished, he wrote out all the sheet music. Sometimes this resulted in the finished song being credited partly to him as well. It can be a collaborative art and very productive for that. However, we don't go 'public' with the songs until they have reached an advanced stage, either in performance or in the studio. The reason is, from bitter experience, having a wide range of input at an early stage can lead to so many conflicting views, suggestions, and uninformed comment that it can kill both the song and your enthusiasm dead. Keep it tight in a working relationship and craft it. If your partner is also your lover, I have no advice for you except think long and hard before you write a love song
Hi Derek,
hope you are fine!
My stuff is rather prog, or neo-classical, so not everyone would necessary like it. I have tried the following approach with my solo album: once it was mastered, I have made myself app. 50 copies of it - all inclusive cover, and have distributed them among my friends, students, fellow musos, have sent a couple to the studio engineers I have worked with, and have asked all these guys to give me feedback. Finally, I had about two pages of comments on each song! After it, I have made the improvements and the CD was remastered and only then published. This was a good decision - it is better to hear the critique from the friends, as to read it in reviews later!
Regards,
Andrew
I am pretty much a "solo" act when it comes to new tunes.Ultimately I have to like the song itself before whether I take in consideration the opinion of others.Otherwise there's the inevitable danger of succumbing to public pressure.I think if you write for yourself first that in the end it provide the most effectual way to keep ur music real.
Hi Derek, I play the song for my friend Tracy. If she starts rolling her eyes around, I know she hates the song but if she yells out "Ya Right On", I know it's good.
John Janes
I think too much focus is on getting feedback AFTER a song is written (what to change, take out, etc.), and not enough on what goes INTO the song in the first place (ie. what types of lyric words tend to have more impact, the emotional effects of certain chords, etc.)
While a song is definitely a work of art, unique and a product of someone's inspiration and creativity, there are usually certain fundamental things that a writer needs to know in order to create something that will connect with listeners. We wouldn't try to build an airplane without a certain amount of instruction and guidance, and rely only on feedback to see if it works. A song that "works" is no less impactful. But I suppose the consequences of experiencing a poorly "built" song (say, falling asleep) are less dire than experiencing a poorly built airplane (um, maybe death).
So I say: put more attention into what goes INTO the song in the first place, and then, of course solicit feedback later. There are a number of good books available on both lyric writing & music composition but, unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be as many classes taught in this vein. I was once fortunate enough to attend a class where the teacher did teach this way. (I have also experienced the feedback method as well.)
Well ... actually I present all songs to my wife and she is really a hard critic. She says just "I like it" or "I not like it" or something more specific and then I have to look. Sometimes I play a special part for her and let her decide between two different versions, when I am not shure, what is better. So when she is smiling it's a good work.
Second step will be to present the finished work to close friends to hear more and more feedback. I analyse the given feedbacks looking for equal advices and do last adjustments.
Kind regards, Dirk
Derek, I found the type of songwriting workshop you mention to be the best way to get worthwhile feedback. I used to attend some where both experienced and new writers gave feedback on everyone's songs, and everyone's opinion was considered valid. At a gig, people applaud for all kinds of reasons, and your friends and family will always tell you they like your stuff (except for my brutally honest wife!) There's nothing wrong with playing your songs for people in any setting, but, in general, I think a focused and sincere group of people in a songwriting workshop is a great way to get feedback that will help you grow as a writer. Even if I disagreed with things people said about my songs, I still came away from pumped up and ready to write, and I learned a lot about myself by observing how other people react when their songs are analyzed.
All these comments are true. I could agree and disagree with all of them. Songwriting varies (for better or worse) with experience, and age. I make songs when i have too much to say. The songs i made public i wrote after giving myself too much to teach then simplifying it so that even a child could feel or understand it. The songs i keep private come and go like clouds. I dream them or sing them - then later i might hear someone else do the same or similar thing - or notice a giant hole where nobody is singing it. Freeform is the art, what we capture is only a record of the moment or a shared reconstruction of it. In mainstream - construction and formula is everything - in real life, a song can keep you alive - other times it just gives back to a crowd what they are giving to you.. but in the universe of imagination - it is possible that songs are a universally shared experience at the moment of their creation, which explains why different writers occasionally write the same song. Christy Moore once sang "you lay one to rest - another song is born".. I made my songs public so i could give birth to new ones, private or public. Writing songs is like scetching - recording them is like producing a layered piece of finished art - or like catching a cloud.
I don't really look for feedback, but sometimes it happens spontaneously. Since I do two different things: write songs with lyrics and write instrumental "songs" for my 10-piece band, there are several ways I can get feedback. With the band, the band members themselves are my best source of feedback, and I'm happy to listen to what they have to say -- up to a point. That point is when they stop making suggestions about my piece and start trying to turn it into their piece.
With the songs that have lyrics, I often send them to a singer I've been writing for over the years, to see if she wants to sing/record them or not. If she doesn't like something, I usually just let it go. I'm not into altering my songs, unless it's something minor.
I see song and music writing as an individual matter, and I really never try to "shape" my music to suit what I think an audience would like. I just let it flow through me with the thought that someone out there will enjoy it!
As crazy as this may sound, I don't ask for feedback from anyone. I don't share or discuss WIPs ( works in progress). I consider other people's opinions distracting and counter productive. My muse is very adamant about this. I trust my musicality and the voices in my head. ;-)
I don't bring a tune to my band until I am confident it is ready for "prime time". So far this has worked well for me. I am not saying every tune I've ever written is a masterpiece. I have a few "problem children" but even in their "imperfection" there is something appealing.
I realise creative styles are different. I say don't get hung up on what other people think. Let them write their own music and leave you to writing your own.
Songs come in on their own volition for me, and someone else's energy or situation calls them forward. If they don't have a live connection that gets stimulated by someone wanting to hear, they can stay dormant for years. I know my understanding of songwriting is tiny, compared with how potent I could be if I had feedback ongoing. I'll be writing a songwriting blog for the School for Wonder soon.
I woke up with a song in my head this morning that I wrote in 1993, and never sang again. Someone somewhere was calling it up in me, and that internal singing is just as powerful as moments I've had on stage.
It's a connection that gets juiced by the quiet bow, the stepping aside to let the sacred thing happen.
When I have composed a new instrumental I do the following: Play it for my wife; play it at open mic performances or jam sessions. I never ask for feedback because most people will feel put on the spot. The most important criteria is that I like the composition. If I do I will then record it and continue listening to it for self evaluation. After I have recorded enough for a CD I will put together a new CD issue it on CD baby, sell it at performances, and put it out on electronic download sites. Audience reaction sometimes helps me evaluate.
i dont bounce ideas off of anybody when i write a song...i make the song for me first and foremost...if people like it GREAT...and if people don't like it GREAT as well...i'm making art that is personal to me and not music or songs for commercials or to make money...I doubot Picasso ever bounced a painting idea off of his cohorts..."Do you think that ear is in the right place"?
As a song writer there a number of things I consider as far as feed back to my songs. First of all I don’t let the opinion of critics dictate everything I do, however I do listen. They say opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, but often they stink. My ideas for songs come from lots of different sources. Some songs that I have recorded I am surprised at who responds to them.
Sometimes I wake up with an idea which might have a poetic line or two. Other times I might be tinkering with a few notes or chord combinations which I’ll record just to think on for awhile. I often approach my music like I have painting or sculpting, merely as something fun to do. If someone likes it great, if not, no big deal. I can still hang it on my wall. Often these paintings find a buyer at some unsuspecting time.
Teaching guitar often gives me some clues as to what might work. If I have a new student, I will play something for him. If he begins to tap his foot, maybe I have hit on something. If he comes back the next week and he is playing something memorable that I have shown him, then we work with it. It he hears something on one of my cds that he likes we work on it.
Much of my music has been gospel related though not necessarily church music. Some are offended that I occasionally play at fancy wineries. Well, Jesus turned water into wine. If I would have let church people dictate my songs I would have quit playing years ago. I have never wanted to be like every other clone on the radio. One song I wrote was critical of Islam, and I got a rather nasty review from some folks in UK. The reviewer was obviously threatened by the Muslim masses in his neighborhood. Other people found the song to be rather humorous. It is fun to find lyrics that might have a double meaning, that way it can speak to people in many different ways depending on their journey through life. Life experience tends to broaden ones audience and subject content. I often write tunes that I have used for sound on a video project, therefore it has to present a certain mood that matches the video message. One must appeal to our audience. The question then is, who is my audience. We all work for someone.
Dale Brown
HELLO EVERY ONE ..I'M LUKO ADJAFFI
MY MUSICAL INSPIRATIONS IS THE EVERY DAY EXPERIENCE ...FROM GOD
CREATION POEPLE ANIMALS THE IDEA
OF THE PLANET EARTH ...SPIRITUALITY
NOT CHURCH ..I MEAN I'M FINDING A
SONG MOST OF THE TIME COME FROM A
FAR AWAY PLACE ...WHEN IT TRANFER TO ...IT'S DONE .....SOME TIMES ITS , UNFINISH UNTIL SOME ONE ELSE FEEL IT AND PLAY IT ..THIS IS MY VIEW BROTHER DEREK .S
LUKO ADJAFFI
I play it for an audience as soon as possible. Not to see how *they* like it, but rather to see how *I* feel about playing it for them.
I'm with Mr. Anonymous on this one, Derek. Pandering to other people is a sure fire way to make something that means exactly nothing to nobody (including yourself.)
I participate in this thing called "Songpull" based off the old guitar pulls Johnny Cash used to have, where the Carter family, Dylan, and others would gather to share songs they are working on.
There isn't much critiquing that goes on, because the goal is just to complete song ideas.
I've found that having to perform a song in front of people really makes me realize the weaknesses in it.
I'm embarrassed by a lyric, or a section is too long, or I realize that a chorus just sucks when I get to it. That's one way I judge whether one of my songs is going in the right direction or not.
Here's an example:
http://www.songpull.com/performance/view_video/991
Time is an excellent critic. Good songs continue to sound good as the months roll on.
Patience is also important. Usually, I know when a song has a line or part that needs changing. But I may not know how to do that for a long time. Sometimes I've had to wait 3-5 years, but the wait has always been worth it. And I just seem to know when it's done.
I usually don't collaborate on songs or present drafts for review to anyone. That having been said, I spend quite a bit of time working on the finer details of a song's lyrics and melody line until I believe it is ready for public. I used to be a lecturer in Professional Writing at the University of Canberra, and one of the points I liked to impress upon my students was that all writing, including songwriting, must fully engage the reader/listener (willing suspension of disbelief) and must never give them pause to become disengaged from the writing because they found something wrong, or even just a little "off". Therefore, when I draft a song I try to listen for those "disengaging" moments so that I might eliminate them. That includes lazy use of cliches and corny phrases.
Once I am satisfied with a song I will put it into a few shows to gauge the audience reaction. At the first outing I usually tell the audience that they will be the first people, aside from my dog, to hear the song. I never ask for feedback or their thoughts, although sometimes I receive them anyway. After a few outings I can gauge a pattern of response to the song and determine where it stands on my "audience meter". That doesn't mean I will toss out songs that rate lowly, it just means that I don't include them in shorter "power" shows where I only have time for a few songs before I am off stage.
I could go on about songwriting for hours, especially lyrics. As the songs says, "don't start me to talkin' or I'll tell you everything I know". Hope this helps.
Cheers
Ernie
The easiest way to find out what people think about a new song is by asking people who dont know you. Alway make sure you ask a couple cause we all dont hear the same thing.
I used to pay a song critique person who has gotten me many single song contracts but now I just write from my heart and what feels right for me.
Typically if I am releasing a CD I will get it evaluated by a professional which I did on my debut CD for half of it. I have been critiqued so much over a 16 year period and paying for this service that now it is time to rely on my instinct and my friends who write songs who do it for free. Its high time I make my money back on what I like to sing not what others feel is a hit. It has been a great recipe so far.
Blessings all and don't take yourself too seriously,
Kim Yarson
I've gotten a lot of feedback from NSAI and Minnesota Songwriters.
I always needed convincing that something isn't working. Sometimes that was easy, sometimes not.
Then trying to record everything and give it to different people and ask their opinions.
I have an audience at church that used to be valuable but, now they seem to be more like family that loves everything I do.
You've ALWAYS got to consider the source. If someone tells me, "I like DOPED UP STRIPPER." I say that's great. I know it's not the best song I've written but, it appeals to some. I don't have to re-write it to make it more appealing cause the folks it appeals to love it. Always a consideration.
natural for me to feel it.
yes would mak friends listen,
any one to listen.i'll upload to my
site gave it to DJ i'll jst stood
there see how the people reacted ..honesty if my little son dance to it
that tell me a lots..
nice one
bro..
peace.
Hello Derek,
I use two main methods....
First, I e-mail a demo version of the song to some trusted musical friends around the country and ask for their feedback without giving them *any* preconceived ideas about the song. I want them to be free of any expectations before hearing and commenting on my latest creation.
Second - and this works pretty well for me - I leave song ideas archived in a rough format for months without listening to them. When I hear them for the 'first' time again I have a curiously-detached reaction to them which is very helpful and pretty unbiased. It helps that I'm always filling the pipeline with new ideas so I can pretty easily leave songs alone for a while before returning to them for a fairly impartial review. The songs that keep striking me in a positive way over time are the ones I nurture and grow.
Cheers,
Jason
I generally hold a melody or hook in my mind for a day, then record it into my phone, then if i listen back to it and still like it I figure out other parts of it or options and play them for my wife...if she's into it then I know I cant let it die and generally finish the song. By the time its played in front of people its long since crystalized and finished.
HiDerek: I write for the Lord. Whatever He gives me is what I write down. Others feedback is really of no significance. Of course, I want other folks to like it and enjoy it, but I trust that they will. He gives me the words and the melody straight from the throne room of heaven. 25 songs in four months!! It doesn't get any better than this! He knows what others need, and what they would like to hear. Thanks, joe
The first person that usually hears my new songs or song ideas is my wife. She's also a musician and a songwriter and is not shy about letting me know what she thinks. My songs are usually pretty well finished before I let anyone hear them. Besides my own band I'm part of a group of singer/songwriters that go out and perform under the name of Urban Caravan. That's often the first place I'll debut a new song to hear what the other songwriters say. And I get feedback from the audience. You can tell right away how an audience feels about a song. Finally, if I get a shiver or two while I'm performing a new song than I know it's good. At least I think it's good and that's probably the most important thing in the end.
Hi Derek
I'm a music teacher, musician, producer, publisher, songwriter..so I have lots of avenues for "testing" new songs. As a rule, I write specific songs for licensing agents or projects that I recreate the songs at live shows for. I get feedback from our fans,the band, and others in the industry that I network with. I teach songwriting along with instruments so the workshops are good "feedback" grounds.
John
crystal image
Although I believe musical/songwriting collaborations can be very productive, there is a major problem when too many people are involved. In my experience, songs written "by a committee" are usually cliche-ridden and formulaic because the whole process pushes the participants into compromises to appease each of the participants.
My girlfriend is a harsh critic! The good news is that I do not need to solicit her advice, she gives it freely. She also gages the reaction of the live crowds so she can tell me, "You lost them during that middle part..."
I get most of my feedback from live audiences. The audiences in Northern California are kind but you can still judge by their enthusiasm.
I once asked a crowd why they had stopped dancing and I heard "Too slow!" from the back of the room.
-Chadwick
I think many songwriters are plain scared of feedback (ie. critical, constructive feedback) and won't show anyone their work until it's finished. I certainly used to fit in this category!
I suppose to a degree the songs are 'our children' and we thus treat them a little protectively. I think The Seekers' "Look What They've Done To My Song, Ma" spells out the dilemma pretty clearly.
These days I'm a lot clearer as to what purpose I write a song, and so get my feedback in different ways. For example, if it's a commissioned work or collaboration I feel far less precious about the music and am very open to feedback during the process, often actively chasing it down. I do enjoy this as it's usually a chance to stretch my own musicality.
On the other side, if I'm aware I'm writing the song for personal reasons then no-one hears it until it's complete.
In practice, I'm usually surprised which songs of mine people like, reminding me that sometimes my own favourites aren't the same as my listeners.
I've leanered in my years of song writing to not worry what others think of the songs that I write. If I'm writing a song coming from my heart, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. For as we songs writers know, anything can happen with any kind of song that is written. Who's to say what's good and what's not?!!!! If you like what you write, that's all you need.
I don't ask anyone what they think. I write it,record and give it the "Fogerty" car test..if it's sounds good on a crappy car speaker,it's good. That's what John Fogerty did with much of his stuff.
In my opinion a good songwriter can write to any blank piece of music presented to them. The tone of the music itself sets the inspiration for the topic or theme of the song. For example if someone handed me “Shinny Happy People” without a vocal melody attached to it, assuming I never heard the song before I don’t think I would write a dark song against the musical canvass. I‘ve heard of people writing lyrics first, then the music. Well I’ve never done it like that in my 20 years of composing. Here’s how I compose a song. I was flattered to find out this is exactly the formula Paul McCartney and John Lennon used for many years:
My experience lies in composing hard rock, rock, mainstream pop, and country music.
* Write the basic musical skeleton on a guitar usually 3 or 4 different connecting parts or progressions that mix things up and compliment each other.
* Begin the “la la la” stage of plugging in a melodic line that goes with the music and has a catchy rhythm all it’s own. A great vocal melody lines can stand on it’s own two feet without any music at all.
* Write the chorus first to establish a musical foundation, then build upon it.
* Begin writing versus that lead up to the meaning of the chorus. These parts can be ambiguous in meaning compared to the chorus which must be direct and to the point.
Below are characteristics that make up a really good piece of music.
* Makes a real and genuine connection with a listener emotionally.
* Short and sweet experience.
* Has several parts that mix things up and maintains the focus of the listener.
* Leaves a strong and lasting impression with a listener.
* The emotions heard in the vocal delivery is the most important selling point of the piece of music.
M.S Rhodes a/k/a Cyrus
www.7at.net
I haven't had time to read all comments here there are so many, but we would debut new songs live and see how they went down. How else would you do it? Its not something that you can put down to science OK, you can analysis it to death but inspiration doesn't come out of some kind of recipe. Otherwise we'd all be doing it if it was something you could learn from a some songwriting 'workshop' or whatever.
Something you might like, other people wont, something they like, you wont. You could go on forever trying to please everyone! Just try and target your own crowd, stick to your principles
Hi, some song writers would consider me an ememy. I am a music producer.I tell you how to improve your music and often have practical input into recordings.Sometimes songs don't need improvement but that is usually an exception than the norm. Sometimes clients have a strong emotional attachment to a song and are offended by the interpretation I render the song. However, it is times like these that they forget that it is in my vested interest to ensure their song gets the audience it deserves and is the best that it can be. Do your own research and see how many songs in any given genre in the music charts got there without the input of a music producer.Of course not everyone aims to be in the music charts, but then what are you doing reading this blog?
I play it for two honest friends. Then I play it out and see if it feels like the audience connects with it. If it doesn't, I try to figure out why not. Once I spent a lot of money on a song consultant and she taught me some really good things, but she was also blatantly and so unnecessarily mean. Honest feedback is so helpful, but mean comments just hurt and temporarily disable me. I'd like to have a mentor of some kind, but now I'm gun shy.
My original tunes have only been instrumentals and I don't think I'm enough of a poet to write my own lyrics at this point. However, when I start--I'll go to a songwriting camp or workshop and let the instructors and other students have a go at critique as that seems to be the place to get good feedback.
Since that is Prince's main theme of the entire tune--I thought that was pretty weird advice. If it had been my tune--I would have been crushed--but since it was Prince's tune--I recognized it for the bad advice it was. 
Although--I'm not entirely sure that some of the feedback is not entirely without issues anywhere.
For instance, in a vocal clinic last year--we were readjusting the wording of our songs to make them clear and since I didn't have an original tune, I used Prince's "When Doves Cry." The instructor let her husband give critique and he was unfamiliar with Prince and thought I had written the song and suggested I take out the word "alone".
On my instrumentals--if it sounds right in my heart--I go ahead and record it and let the listeners decide if its for him/her or not. There always seem to be lots of folks who write and say how much they enjoy the tunes and I wouldn't want to change the tunes for the folks that like them for the folks who like something else.
I don't release it until it is done. At which point it is there for the people that will connect to it just as it is.
All my music to this point is instrumental, though. I think if I were writing a song with lyrics this would be different.
I usually take it to the band first and ask them for their honest opinions. I also run it by my wife, who is brutally honest. Once the band has heard it and started making changes that they hear, we run it by some outsider friends for their input. It works pretty good for us, and our songs always evlove with the entire band having input.
I find I am better off relying on my own gut about a song.
It doesn't matter if anyone else says it's good or not because I don't know if they are just being nice or not.
I know I would never dis another persons work even if I wasn't into it because I don't want to discourage anyone putting themselves out there.
And I don't like a lot of major stuff that sells like crazy. Does this mean they aren't good songs?
Ironically, I have one song that gets a lot of play on a web radio site and it's not at all a good seller, but 5 Djs picked it up and now it's also on the regular rotation.
I don't think it's bad or I would haven't put it out there, but wouldn't exactly call it a favorite.
As for peers, I find they can be the worst to ask because some may be envious.
Being a fiction writer as well, I had a writer friend who used to critique my work and she loved it until I got published.
She had not had anything published and after that she began shredding my work so badly I had to end the friendship.
So I just don't trust others feedback all that much.
My bandmates and friends are often the first line of questioning. I can get some really honest opinions from them and they know I won't take stuff personally.
After that, I usually ask the opinions of other songwriters, other musicians and artist managers I respect by emailing a link to a pretty-much complete tune.
The feedback is good and I pay attention to suggestions but more often go with my instincts... otherwise, my music would just sound like everyone else's or a mish-mash of everyone else's.
The best thing for feedback was garageband.com, but they don't run the site well anymore and the rating system is all screwed up. oh how i wish there was another garageband.com but with a better rating system and more competition.
Just an interesting aside. My drummer and I were talking about performing and found that if anyone criticized our instrumentals--it did not hurt our feelings or bother us in anyway and we were unlikely to believe them because we always played tunes we really liked and if someone didn't like it--we didn't take it personally because we felt confident the music was good.
However, if anyone criticized our singing or lyrics--we felt upset and took it personally. For some reason--singing and lyrics felt more personal than instrumentals and we felt more vulnerable to mean spirited comments. ????
However, a nice friend (and good vocalist) recently gave me some great advice. She said-"take the stage with your singing with the same confidence you play--and you will sound wonderful.
As a professional manager, I am often on the giving end of song critique. My first move is to ascertain the motive of the writer. If their motive is "Hit" then I immediately evaluate the song from its suitability for radio. Is it too long? Does it comfortably fit a radio format? Are there strong hooks? Are there any elements such as language or instrumentation that would alienate that format of radio? Does the hook come in soon enough and does it repeat enough?
I also look for glaring mistakes such as poor rhymes; tenses that are mixed up (past, present, future); persons mixed up (he, she, him, you); unclear images or references; dated language or musical riffs etc.
In general, I think it is good to provide some positive feedback first, maybe making sure that the first 4-5 comments are positive. Then note that any feedback has to do with ones personal preferences. Use "I" statements, such as; "At that point where you end the song, I think I would prefer a shorter, almost sudden ending, but I am going to listen to it a few more times before I give you anymore of an opinion." You get the idea.
oh and i'd like to add to my last post - i've never found another good way to get honest feedback besides garageband.com(when it was working right, now it takes a month to get 20 reviews)
BUT, i've tried other things. When i play my music for friends or fans or people that i've just met, they always say good things. sometimes asking them to ge negative and tell me what songs they would skip helps, but even that doesnt work really. My friends and people i meet are all from the same area and have certain tastes. When you get a worldwide perspective, the real hits stand out. no show, or company, or friend or fan or random people are going to give you good perspective on what the world will think. We need a website for this i think.
I think a songwriter should learn to please him or herself and express him or herself. If you are totally sure that the song represents your personality or an aspect of it then it's a no-lose situation. Trying it out live is a good way of forming your own judgement. Don't worry about other people's judgement, it's not their job to decide whether or not your work is worthwhile. I'm not a big Phil Collins fan but I heard him say recently that by the time anyone hears a song of his, he's already decided it's a keeper, and I agree with that approach.
Hey Derek great response,
I've done most of my songs with co-writers, and occasionally I write some solo. Sometimes it flows like sap out of a maple in the spring, then there are other times, hmm, hardly worth the effort of trying. As far as being critiqued, like one of your readers said, some will like one song, and some will hate it. That's why we have different genre's of music. Ever see a heavy metal band play Johnny Cash? Well I did, but not too often, well maybe I should have said country. But always put your songs on the shelf for a little while, because you can usually point out your own mistakes.
Guy
http://www.nrtco.net/~guykelli/
The manner in which i play my new songs for others varies. Sometimes it's just for my sisters, or my closest friends, and sometimes we'll play it as a band at a show.
The main thing i have to say is, that you should always listen to peoples criticisms but not take them too heavily at first. I'm very protective and perhaps over protective of my songs, and it tends to hit deep when people just make rash generalizations about my newers songs.
The thing is, being new, the song is still growing, evolving, developing in it's own individual way and a great song can be stunted or completely dismembered by some know-it-all's criticisms. You can find good feed back and advice but don't let the nay sayers bring about the demise of a new song.There is always at least a little bit of life in every musical idea.
I guess I have confidence in myself, in that I'm interested in playing my songs for other people, and want honest criticism, but I rarely change anything because someone says I should, unless it's a technical thing having to do with mixing, or a recording technique ("don't put the mic so close to the soundhole," etc.). Could be because I know very few Berklee College of Music level musicians; the punkers and grungers I know usually say, "Wow, man, great...," which is OK, but not very helpful. Or they say, "Hmm, I dunno...," but can't articulate just what they don't like. This is a general problem I have--I have to learn and do everything myself because I don't know anyone who's knowledgeable enough to help me!
But, yeah, as far as lyrics go, I trust in me.
Usually a handful of trusted friends. I am always looking for constructive criticism, unless it's the third or fourth go around and I'm ready for the "It's perfect!" comment.
I try to finish the song the way that i hear it and then get some feedback from different people and if i am hearing mostly the same comments whether its good or bad then I'll go back and tweak it or just leave it as is.
In my opinion a good songwriter can write to any blank piece of music presented to them. The tone of the music itself sets the inspiration for the topic or theme of the song. For example if someone handed me “Shinny Happy People” without a vocal melody attached to it, assuming I never heard the song before I don’t think I would write something dark song against the musical canvass. I‘ve heard of people writing lyrics first, then the music. Well I’ve never done it like that in my 20 years of composing. Here’s how I compose a song. I was flattered to find out this is exactly the formula Paul McCartney and John Lennon used for many years:
BTW - My experience lies in composing hard rock, rock, mainstream pop, and country music.
- Write the basic musical skeleton on a guitar using 3 or 4 different connecting parts or progressions that mix things up and compliment each other.
- Begin the “la la la” stage of plugging in a melodic line that goes with the music and has a catchy rhythm all it’s own. A great vocal melody line can stand on it’s own two feet without any music at all.
- Write the chorus first to establish a musical foundation, then build off it.
- Begin writing versus that lead up to the meaning of the chorus. These parts can be ambiguous in meaning compared to the chorus which must be direct and to the point.
Below are characteristics that make up a really good piece of music.
- Makes a real and genuine connection with a listener emotionally.
- Short and sweet experience.
- Has several parts that mix things up and maintain focus of the listener.
- Leaves a strong and lasting impression with a listener.
CRITICAL - The emotions heard in the vocal delivery will always be the most important selling point of the song.
Cyrus Rhodes
Guitarist foe Seven Against Thebes
www.7at.net
I have written what I have written.
OK, so that was Pontiac Pilate.
But if you don't know what you're writing don't write the damn thing.
Wow. That's a ton of feedback and I'm sure my answer is probably already covered. The songs I write are always growing even after I record them. I guess I am my own greatest critic. But, one thing I would suggest is being open-minded. Sometimes I'll find I'm stuck on a storyline or a lyric or chord progression because I've put so much time and effort into it... and sometimes have to just realize it's not the answer and approach the song from a different angle. Just do not get caught up with one approach to the song no matter how much you've put into it. One friend suggested I change a slower song I'd written by increasing tempo and putting it to a reggae beat. Works great!
I play it for a couple friends, and I put it on my web site as soon as I can get a decent demo - some songs are easier to do that with than others. But I know I have the essence if my wife likes it - she doesn't know about music, but she knows about BullShit. If she likes it, a lot of other people will, too.
A few things I do:
Just write the song and arrange and record it 'in one go' as much as you can. In my experience the basic energy that drives you when it comes out is the most precious.
Be very critical in every decision you make. Never go for the easy options. Otherwise you'll sound like everybody else.
Make sure the lyrics fit the feel of the music, make sure it's a 'round' story.
Try to keep the three balls in the air juggling with: rythm, melody and harmony.
Try to get a nice energy curve in the song, keeping the attention of the listeners.
Many songwriters fix the melody to a chord progression they like. Let go of logical chord progressions and try to pick up on where the melody wants to go by itself. Make up your own chords if you have to.
Have a banana, go to sleep or whatever.
Let it rest for a few weeks. Listen again. Work on possible flaws.
Be your own worst critic. Be you! That is the only way to become an original. It's the hardest way, but you get authentic songs.
In my opinion. Dare to be different.
With plug ins and all the media everythings is sounding the same already.
Never rest until you're completely satisfied.
Don't ask anyone. Do what you feel is best and believe in it.
Have fun!
Ruud
My test for the strength of a song is whether or not it sounds really good just playing solo on an acoustic guitar. Any great song sounds good played on a solo guitar. I lay down a track and listen back to it. If it doesn't stand on its own I know it's not a good song. You can take a good song and add instrumentation and vocals and sing harmonies and the
song will sound really good, however, no matter how much you do in the studio, you'll never create a great song out of a poor one. For example, last week I recorded on a cheapo hand held recorder myself singing a new song. Listened and thought I can work with this and it became within a few days this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5izaXb6VgF0
i have two sides to my musical identity so i use two different methods. 1. i play in a country band that performs several of my tunes. i bring them in as 'finished' songs but the other members have often made suggestions for both music and lyrics. every song has gotten better because of their input. the ones we keep are based on audience reaction. 2. i also write jazz instrumentals that i record myself in my home studio. i ask for no feedback on these since they are 'my babies'. you can hear them at www.rickcicconetti.com or at www.myspace/rickcicconetti or better yet, cdbaby/rickcicconetti/underthewaterfall.
I've done so many things... The least effective has been sending songs in progress to a creatively-minded friend who I knew was not really into the style of music I was doing. I thought he might be able to listen more objectively and give me some truly illuminating feedback. Instead I ended up getting so hung up trying to get him to like the music I about threw it all out.
Another fail is listening over and over myself, or physically mapping out the song visually on paper (tracking dynamics, what kinds of arrangements I'm using, etc.) Obsessing makes me end up hating the song because I've listened and thought about it so much I can hear every tiny mistake, even taking in a breath a second too late.
Anything that takes me away from my personal connection to the music is suspect. I like playing a song and watching the non-verbal response the listener gives, but realizing it only means so much. Trying something out live is great, you can read the body language and get a lot from that, and you can always tell the difference between polite applause and actual "hey that was good" applause. The good stuff rises to the top over many sets, and a lot of times I'll put a plus sign by a song on the setlist if I get a good response from it.
I would love to have a collaborative experience working with someone who's able to help me shape the song, but most of the people I interact with are too polite or unable to articulate well what they're thinking. I've gotten better over the years at listening to my gut and admitting as soon as possible if a song is sucking wind.
I usually will shop the song around to some of my friends within the industry. Usually they give me a straight forward answer, and will comment or express issues/concerns they may have with the song. From there, I usually perform it at a few new shows.
What do you do for feedback on a new song you’re writing?
* Do you play it for a few friends, looking for praise?
Only if the song was written for them specially.
* Do you play it for a few friends, looking for criticism? (Really asking, “What don’t you like about it?”)
Occasionally I will request feedback from a friend or relative that has heard a song.
* Do you upload it to your site, and email everyone you know, asking what they think?
No. If I have something I think is worthwhile, I go ahead & copyright it legitimately. Since I record only very basic at home, if it's not worthy - if I don't feel good about it - I wouldn't spend money on a studio for it.
* Do you send it to a company for paid critique?
I don't like to pay for critiques if I can help it. But I suppose if there were someone I really thought highly of in the business that I trusted to give a straight constructive opinion, that would be a possibility
* Do you have a songwriting teacher or mentor?
No, but I would love to have that.
When you get feedback, are you looking to change and improve your song?
Depends on the feedback. I have a peer group I share with (a songwriting organization). Everyone is on a different professional level. Many focus on book rules. My personal focus is on what feels right. Many of my peers aren't listening to contemporary radio. I am an old lady, but I still listen to what's out their now. Some spend hours picking a phrase apart. I take it all with a grain of salt. The test comes in performance. If I feel awkward, embarrassed, or really old-fashioned singing a phrase I know I need to change it. Mainly I want to feel good about it.
Or by the time someone hears it, is it pretty much done?
Sometimes I tweak after performing, but I wouldn't go through a full recording session if I wasn't happy with it.
Someone made a comment above. I know some of my music wouldn't be what some people are looking for. As a soloist, I don't currently have that contemporary edge. I am working more on performance style. Anything can go if you are in the right market for it. So, create the market for your music, or write for the market. Or try something different. (Like I am working on some children's songs as well as contemporary folk-rock-whatever-you-want-to-call-it. Go figure, you hear the worst songs sometimes on the radio, but someone still gets behind it. Some of it is luck & some of it is an angle, marketing, or whatever.
I just enjoy it!
Often I record it, put it away, listen weeks or months (years) later, make changes, then repeat until I don't have anything else to add. I then guess which will be most popular on itunes and am usually wrong. The most popular seem to be things that "just came to me" or were improvised in 1-2 takes. A feedback venue would be great!
Boy oh boy! This can be a slippery slope. When I'm writing a song I don't ask for feedback from anyone. What I do is LISTEN. If it's a line I'm missing it will come out in a conversation, a book you may be reading, a movie, or even another song. The key is to LISTEN to everyting around you. I find that it's right in front of me. Pay attention. I don't ask anybody for feedback because I get confused, lose the point or message of what I'm trying to convey and someone else is trying to insert what they are trying to convey and thinks this or that should be said or sung. As a songwriter, it is I who must like the song. I you collaborate, you both have to like the song or make compromises. I present it to the band and if they like it, we work on it and sometimes it changes but I still like it. Most of the changes that happen to my songs are usually musical more that change of the lyrics. There have been times when I've adjusted the lyrics to what they have come up with musically. There have been times when they have told me that the song is too short or long and I've either remove a line or come up with another verse, etc. I've never had a teacher or consultant help. For me in has to come from inside of me.
I have been writting songs, or composing music for over thirty years and my means of getting feed back have varied. Although I was never interested in praise, I was curious to see what reached people, and also wanted critisism. When I wanted feedback on music I would usualy go to an eclectic handful of people of which I valued their musical perspective. (perhaps), A classical horn player, a folk musician, a close friend or two and an elder...
I've never been interested in "HOW MANY PEOPLE I COULD REACH", Making the best music posible has been my vision, though I do agree that audience response can be a good indication that your song works.
35 years down the road, there is no feedback before performance. I compose a piece, the band helps in arranging and Voilé.
First I play my ideas into a tape recorder and listen to myself repeatedly while developing and editing the song. Then when the song is formed I play it for my husband, who is also my bass player, and get his feedback. I know it works if he picks up his bass right away and wants to play it. If he's lukewarm about it I ask for constructive criticism and take it back to my studio to work out the bugs. When I feel a song is ready I play it at my next performance and see how the audience responds to it.
I'll play it for my wife and daughter, and they'll tell me if they like it, or if it needs work. I'll mess around with based on that feedback.
Then I'll bring it the band and if they like it, play it the next show.
I play it for a few people at various stages in the writing process to see if their views are close to mine...this way I know if I'm on the right track or need to look at the approach I'm taking. The people I play it for are usually people I can trust to give me honest feedback.
OH and a bit furher, sometimes I'll come up with achorus or a line that will actually make my wife angry. Mostly the lyric has nothing to do with her. like I just was trying out this song "Keep on Truckin" and she couldn't get past that line. So I revamped it and I think I have a better song now.
Peers can be cool as well. Somebody outside your bubble can see/hear stuff you can't.
As a Contemporary Gospel Artist I write songs based on my relationship with God. After every recording I listen to it over and over again as if I am not the artist. If I don't feel the warmth or presence of God through the praise and worship in the songs, then others won't either. If I can sleep to a song all night or wake up with the song in my spirit I know that God has had his way through me musically.
Derek... This is a fav subject
I always get critiques from Pat Pattison when he is in town twice a year, Steve seskin also turns up some times, these sessions cost $100 for 3 hrs with 5 -10 writers.
I take my songs ance a month to songsalive for evaluation $60 /year.
I take my Songs to NSAI Australia in Sydney once a month send them to NSAI in Nashville once a month
$150 /year.I
I send others to TAXI and get evaluations, membership and $5 / song.
I mention the price because I find this invaluable. A proffessional critique or one from your peers, is the best way to move your somgs past good to great. Playing the songs infront of an audience small or large i also invaluable.
Derek....I Love what your doing for songwriters. Good on ya!
Wow! I wish I could get as much feedback on my music as you're getting on this e-mail! I get song ideas all the time. A lot of my ideas, I realize on my own they are not worth finishing. On the other hand, some of my music is amazingly God inspired, and I know it was meant to be. Most of my songs have to survive the test of time, how they sound recorded, and how people respond to them. I also seek out and welcome any advise and opinions I can get. Especially if it's someone other than friends and family - who are only going to tell you good things. And I am never beyond editing and changing my work to make it better. I'm always short on time and money. So workshops and classes have not been an option for me. But I would love to do those things if I could. In the end, the final say on a song becoming "a finished song" will come from what my own heart is telling me.
Hey Derek, great post and one that is important to anyone who is trying to become a successful songwriter.
This is a question that is front and center to each song I write. I think that it is most essential to compare your song to what has been successful, whilst not allowing that to change the voice of you as an artist.
I like to think of it as a happy medium of trying to create something that comes from your core and connects to humanity and also has memorability based on the hook and length of segments.
What I have done is submit to songwriting competitions, send my new weekly song out to my fanlist asking for their feedback and try to make sure I am following some kind of underlying structure to the song.
I think that finding communities to give feedback are immensely important and would love to find some that really work online and aren't all about people just posting with 'hey check out my new song'...I did like GarageBand.com's review swapping procedure that they had, but it didn't feel like getting true critiques from other songwriters.
--
John Lennon, Jim Morrison & David Bowie come together to inspire the music of Andrew Hand.
Currently Andrew is working on Songs For Oprah, a 52 week song & music video project, find out more at http://songsforoprah.com. "...I love your idea...The video looks great." - Derek Sivers founder of CD Baby
andrewhand@andrewhand.com
646.623.9363
http://www.andrewhand.com
http://www.songsforoprah.com
--
The hardest person I have to impress is me. Once I feel like I've done well by my standards then I'll ask some friends for some feedback.
I do all of my creating in Logic so I can lay some tracks down and then come back to it later. If it still sounds good then I keep working on it. But you've got to give your ear time away so you can hear it without the emotional charge behind it.
It ultimately has to be able to communicate and connect with people so you want to be sure you are not so lost in your attachment to that particular song that you can't HEAR IT.
The trap for me is that I can get too critical of my own music and then work it to death. A workshop would be great at this juncture.
I belong to a group of songwriters and we get together and play our songs for each other. Some of us don't like criticism, but I ask for it and I get it. Helps a lot.
Sometimes you write a song and you know it's good. It doesn't hurt to bounce it off friends or an audience at a show. What really matters is if you like it.
I go to the piano and write what's in my head..so far so good.
You can hear them at www.gelbardjazz.com
I will show it to the musicians at the arts school I attend. I can ofter get good feedback and I find ways that I can easily improve it. There's no better place for mixing feedback than your parents.
writing a song is making a sandwich..i know what i like,know when its finished,all are different and should one listen to my sandwichs of songs they will taste them.
I take as many friends and family opinions as I can get, but I would actually welcome new and other methods to get feedback and input in a song. I would like to have the chance to have a class or group of other songwriters hash out my song. Perhaps a social networking site, but with smaller groups of other musicians that each could submit a song to the group and each member listens and gives ideas back. The problem with current social sites is that your audience is much to large to care about each new song.
Derek,
I like to test new songs by playing them to perfect strangers.
A good rule of thumb is to play your songs to a variety of age groups not just your target market.
Hope that helps someone!
Last but not least you all can take a listen to my songs at cdbaby.com/paytc
or paythecreator.com
The Greatest hits are coming out 2009!
since ive been produced by people and it left a nasty taste in my moputh and really not liking music for quite awhile ive found teh best way is to NOT "try" and write a song let it write itself and if you like listening to it- you got it..of course unless youve had several hundred experiences it may be difficult toget a good look at it..what id try and do is not repeat things.. or insult an audiences intelligence by bashing them with the chorus ive found teh best music ive written is what comes out of my hands and head unpolluted by others vision, otherwise... you are writing their songs not your own does that make sense..a hit gets to be ahit with money and indie promoters,, and if it works on a guitar or piano in a dark room by itself.. youve got half the makings of a good song..told to me by my best priducer Andy Mckaie who is now the senior VP at universal (he did my first album in 1981
So Derek - is this just some lengthy chat ... or are you actually planning to go through these answers, condense them down to the best advice, and write an article that we can all read? lol Beth
Being my own harshest critic, there is much to be said for write, re-write and re-write again before playing for anyone.
I am fortunate to have found a producer who tells it like it is and will not produce a song he considers underdeveloped.
But truly, performing a new song in front of an audience gives me the most honest feedback. I have learned to trust my instincts, and not get too crushed because there is always another song waiting in the wings.
I was in a songwriters group many years ago and found it to be helpful to a degree. I moved from that area and have had no one but myself and my audiences at live shows for critiques.I don't present a song until I have labored over it and felt that it was ready. I will make a recording of it and listen to it. If I like it there isn't much anyone can say to make me change it. Songs are subjective, what one likes another won't. If someone I trust says to can it, I probably would but that hasn't happened yet.
Well it may sound obvious but I started a group on face book which is made up of friends and "friends" Since they joined the group I would imagine that they would be interested in old songs news songs and stuff we as a band are up too. So I posted songs fro, previous albums, un-released songs and songs that are brand new. Some people leave feedback. Not nearly as much as I would like but hey!!!
How you doing Derek?
I don't actually run my songs by anyone until they are completed (apart from the producer)and I woulnd't change something because a listener thought i should. I don't know that probably sounds really bad but I write what I feel or what I'm thinking so someone else's thoughts aren't really relevant...thats a whole other song
For me when I write I'm expressing myself and only I know what's going on in that respect. And the real buzz or magic is when someone relates to that. So it starts off quite isolated and then it becomes related. I think it's too hard to please all the people all the time and not something that I even try to do or worry about. I know the business side of things says you should give the people what they want, market for a target audience etc etc and that's why I love CDBaby because it's for everyone. no matter what there are highly successful bands out there who have sold millions of records but there are people who hate their music and vice versa. So I create then see who likes it. If people don't like it I can't cater to meet their needs. That's not what it's about for me. I appreciate constructive criticism because it is interesting to see what other people think but it in no way influences me for what I do in the future or go back and change.
It's weird but after years of making up songs, I've some how learned how to be the objective "third person". It should be obvious what works and what doesn't. But I would never put anyone on the spot and ask if they liked it. If people genuinely like something, they'll tell you. I never started making songs for other people - it was more "what would I like to hear that I can't buy at the record store?" and go that direction.
Luckily, I've had positive feedback,so far.
I have friends who are also writers and they are very honest. Also, I submit my song for a critique with one of the professionals at www.songU.com. I have gotten the best suggestions for tweaking and re-writes from my favorite coach there.
I have written hundreds of songs over the years and what I have found most helpful, is not to ask anyone their opinion at all, whatsoever.
I'll usually leave opinion to the mass appeal of the general public. The reason why I do this, is strictly for the fact of knowing that specifically everyone of us has a different opinion and viewpoint about anything and everything. And usually the opinions solicited may not be what you're looking for anyway. Since it's human nature to seek recognition and praise. So, when we don't get it, it's kind of dismantling and humiliating at best. The response received, primarily will be a meaningless one at best, since many people aren't in-tuned to music or much at all for many reasons that I'd rather not go in to at this juncture.
What it all relates to at best in simple terms, is heartfelt emotion. If the song that's written is performed to tug on the heart strings and emotions, and/or if most of the listeners who will hear it, connect in one way shape or form, as it delivers an empathetic heartfelt impact to the music listener, believe me you'll definately get results and legitimate feedback precisely from those who will generally purchase the track/album. So, why waste valuable time on worthless opinions when sales statistics will eventually divulge true honest and accurate results. That's the only opinion that really counts.
Be well and best of luck to all.
Staten Island Johnny
ATRAXmusicCO.COM
Since the melody comes first for me, I'll first ask members of my family if it sounds like a familiar song, as creating new lyrics for an established tune would be a little crazy.
After that it's played for fellow musicians' comments.
As I am pretty well tucked away I play the song to myself.
Working on a song I will hear it over and over again through the speakers attached.
When I think I have what I want I'll listen to the song through a headset. This is where thumbs up or down come in.
I won't play it just once. A few times.
Usually the "headset" says "fix this or that" and this goes on until I finally think I have it
BUT the real test is the following day. I scare the bejuzzes out of myself when I sit down, bring the song file up and click "play". Because I know, now, I am going to hear it in a different head. A different state of mind. If I like it after that it gets posted...
Sorry I am such a Nilsson-type freak but that's how I do it.
Now: Once posted if I get any critiques of what someone hears could be better I check it out. If I think "yeah"..I edit the song. For example one musician like my stuff musically but thought I should put in more 'high" and less "middle" because he thought some tracks sounded slightly muddy. I love that kind of stuff. I can tell when someone has really listened to my stuff because now and then I like a track so much and it just means something to me, personally, even though I know it's off in many areas, I'll post it. Back into my corner..I know..
I'm a bit different I suppose. I'll keep a song to myself until it's right and then let it loose.
Case in point: I play the Chapman Stick. Emmett Chapman had a Eureka moment back in 1969 when he came up with the two-handed tapping technique we all use on his instrument. He told me of that moment and I took what he said and turned it into a storytelling format with a little Stick traveling music underneath. When the song was finished it just felt completely right. I let it loose and he loved it enough to put it on his website permanently at Stick Enterprises. The lyric and the Mp3 are here:
http://www.stick.com/news/stirling.html
Enjoy - Sean Rhys Stirling
At first, I wasn't going to release a second CD because response was so flat for my first. So I decided to try a different compositional approach.
I wrote shorter melodies. I played shorter, less angular solos. I shortened song lengths to make the music more radio friendly. I lived with these songs for days, weeks, sometimes months, listening to them at home, in the car, listening for anything that might make me question something. If I were playing too many notes, being overly complex, if the energy level drops at an unsafe level, if I needed to add a part or take out a part, if I needed to rewrite or remove a song all together! Then after all that, I posted my new songs on my myspace page and waited to hear what people thought. Pretty scary, but when most of the responses were positive, I decided to proceed with the CD project. I know this process is time-consuming but I had time on my hands so why not use it? I have no deadline to meet.
I figured when dealing with instrumental music, especially contemporary jazz, I'd better work on communicating with as many people as I can. That can be difficult when there are no lyrics for a listener to hear. I didn't want to play cliche licks, or water down the music to a point where I didn't enjoy what I was doing, and I definitely didn't want to come off being complex for the sake of complexity! It won't amount to a hill of beans if I write and play music that only musicians "get". Hopefully, I have achieved such balance on my upcoming CD, but only the listeners can tell me that for sure.
And I hope there will be lots of them!
P Wig
I used to criticize my music to much and that held me back from finishing many songs. Now I just trust what ever song is coming out of me is the message that my high self is sending out to the universe and I have faith that it will touch someone when the time is right and the person is in the right frame of mind. So I don't ask for feed back on my songs and I don't worry if people like my songs or not. My songs my not be popular until hundreds of years after I leave this planet, but I don't worry about that I just write what comes to me and I have faith it's the right thing and I keep chanting Nam Myo-ho Ren-ge Kyo for in the inspiration to keep flowing.
I usually write songs from beginning to finish in under 30 minutes, and then never edit them. If I remember the song the next day then I keep it. I heard an interview with Willie Nelson awhile back, and he has the same process. He admitted that he has lost alot of potentially great songs. If it moves me then I am satisfied.
Hello:
The Brymers will be entereing the studio in June to record their fourth album in two years. We have plenty of originals, but are always looking for great 60's flavored rockers to record. To hear The Brymers style of music, visit: www.thebrymers.com.
Many thanks,
Dick Lee
I have belonged to a local songwriters association for over 10 years. We have a gentler way. We encourage, support and mentor each other. We gather twice a month and also cooperate in putting on performances to raise funds for the association as well as for local charities. I favour the Artist's Way method of stimulating and nurturing our creative spirit (The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron). Visit our website at www.prsaonline.com (Peace Region Songwriters Association). Often 'tearing it apart and analyzing every note' is a method that can be devastating to a new songwriter and can be easily abused by a blocked writer as a way of trying to make themselves sound clever at someone else's expense. If feedback isn't positive it isn't helpful. Feedback that doesn't encourage the writer to find the way themselves is just bullying or bulldozing. I cannot stress enough how important gentle encouragement has been in my growth as a songwriter. You can read my lyrics or hear the songs from my first CD at my website (www.lindaconnellstudley.com) Be kind to each other.
Linda Connell Studley
This whole thread is goldmine of supporting examples for all the things I've been writing about in my upcoming book.
The responses show the two major divisions, that is, between writers who write primarily to express (i.e. to please themselves, without regard for the listener's reaction ), and those who write primarily to communicate (i.e convey a specific idea or message to others). Refer to:
http://www.billpere.com/PDF/Express_Communicate.pdf
and for a directly relevant discussion of this whole thread in a new light, see:
http://www.billpere.com/PDF/FourFaders_Article.pdf
Not to say that an inward vs, an outward focus is better/worse/right/wrong, just fundamentally different. The key is that those writing to please only themselves will generally have a smaller audience, so it is important to make expression over communication a conscious choice, rather than one that comes from not knowing your other options, or from fear of critique.
A key question for any songwriter or artist to ask is: Why would you settle for "x" number of fans when you could have "x + 1". The only way to achieve the latter is to make the fans, the audience, an integral part of your crafting process (not creative process, but the post-creative crafting process). Knowing how impartial listeners are reacting gives you the choice to try to expand your fan base by addressing the things they point out, in a way that remains artistically acceptable. This can be done, and is a fundamental skill of great songwriters.
Be aware of simple facts such as the impossibility of the writer or anyone close to them to know if the song is actually communicating the intended meaning (that requires an impartial outsider); And the impossibility of the writer or singer knowing if anyone is hearing the words correctly (oronyms such as 'kiss the sky' and 'kiss this guy' can only be detected by someone who does not already know the words).
Many of these responses also are revealing a blurring of the creative process and the crafting process. Critique/re-writing is a part of crafting and in no way compromises creative and artistic integrity - in fact it only enhances it, and it always remains under the control of the artist to apply objective feedback as he/she sees fit.
Self-critiquing is not effective, as in most cases for Indie artists, they are missing 70% of their potential audience (See: http://www.billpere.com/PDF/MBTI%20S-N%20Bullseye%20in%20Lyrics.pdf
and
http://www.billpere.com/PDF/Concrete-Abstract%20SeeSaw.pdf )
Lots of responses here say they rely on audience reaction in live performance - this makes it difficult to discern the difference between the effect of the performance vs the quality of the actual song itself. Songcraft, stagecraft, and studiocraft are distinctly different.
Finally, a level-one critique (like/don't like) can never give a writer insight as to WHY the song is or is not working, and thus provides no actionable information to apply to improving the effectiveness of future songs.
That takes a level-3 critique by someone who knows how to objectively look at the parameters of the song.
The whole area of critique, which many songwriter associations work hard to hone and perfect, is an invaluable source of insight as to how expand your fan base and the reach and impact of your songs.
Hello Derek and friends of the blog,
I have a small group of friends that I've accumulated over the years. Some are/were business associates (like a studio engineer), other entertainers (a magician), and two people I've done movie soundtracks for.
These are the people that have heard my worst, and me theirs but we have a "no holds barred" policy where we take our egos and feelings out of the equation and we depend on each other for honest feedback. This way we can talk, make fun of each other and correct things before we put it out there for everyone else.
One of the things I don't do is
1. Let my family hear it.
2. Let my girlfriend hear it.
3. let the public hear it.
The reason being that most of these people are not artists and don't get the idea of a work in progress. I've had family make faces and be completely turned off to a song of a scratch vocal and just a guitar/etc but love the finished product, whereas the other artists that I trust can see the diamond in the rough, so to speak. I do the same for them. A magic act with no frills or a movie scene with no sound effects and poor editing can still be great in the proper context. It's a great system and since we are always in other states/countries a quick email is all it takes.
When someone has trouble downloading or in a slow area, I just throw it up on youtube from my webcam real quick and disable comments, send them the link and take it down after they watch.
Hope this helps, Never give up!
I don't try to write to please anyone but myself which I guess is one reason why I don't make a living with my songs.
For myself, I know a song is finished when I feel it resonate in my heart or chest rather then just my mind. I know it may sound flakey but that's the way it is for me.
For feedback I'll often ask my wife or my guitarist for opinions.
Wilton
1. I play it at a gig & my "inner songwriter" can "feel it" in that magic environment & I also get feedback from select audience members.
2. 3 or 4 sets of trusted & brutally honest ears
3. My writing partners if it's a co-write
4. Me, after I've lived with it.
Easy, I play it to my best critic, my wife!
Songs are like pizza. What one person thinks is great another person will think is trash.
A good songwriter knows when a song is good. That doesn't mean it can't be improved on, and songwriting workshops are fine, but any opinion you get is just an opinion. You want people to like it, but you have to like it too. If it's not your style or why bother?
I'm an old fart who has had many songs played on the radio but never really made much money so this is just another opinion.
You have to be careful who you pick for a mentor. There are many sharks in Nashville posing as mentors.
I let jazz guys play it and then I know if it stacks up. I can hear whether it's any good or not once we do it live and they improvise over the chord changes. I also have a partner that is so critical that if he likes it or absolutely hates it I know I'm on to something.
There is a website www.sellaband.com, where music lovers from all around the world search for artists they like to fund their next album. In this web after uploading your song, you will have a lot of people telling you what they think about your songs, and if they like it, they will even help you to fund your next cd
I have been writing songs for almost thirty years now.When I am close to finished,then I will let someone hear my song.I do not do much for colaberation these days,but i am working with other songwriters who know and put the music to my lyrics.I have many songs that I have written that were never heard until after they were recorded by myself.
First I'll play it for fellow musicians and get their opinion about it. Then I'll upload it to my website and invite others to go there and listen and leave me their opinion about it.I also have friends at radio stations I let listen to it.
Typically for me it's a three step process:
1. Try it out on my wife.
2. Try it out for a couple of critique groups I belong to.
3. Play it live and gauge the reaction.
Aside from all this, inherent in the process is still a good bit of trusting my own instincts. In terms of other people's comments, I've learned that a single criticism, even from someone whose views I highly respect, is generally not something I need to take too much to heart. However, if multiple listeners all have the same or a similar criticism, that's a definite sign that there's a problem that needs to be corrected.
1)Play it for the band and see if they get into it and start adding parts.
2)Play it on stage, see if anyone comments after the show.
3)Record rehearsal - share tapes with other musicians who may have something to add.
4)And sometimes if I like the song, just keep playing it until someone else connects to it.
5)Always suprised by what others like.
Some of the song contests out there can be useful if they provide feedback - critiques. The Unisong International Song Contest, the Billboard World Song Contest and the VH1 Song of the Year Contest all do critiques that can prove helpful. Also just let other musicians that you respect hear it and take in there feedback. In the end though it really amounts to each songwriters own inner vision.
I use the Just Plain Folks Website,lyric feedback forum.There are thousands of writers ,musicians etc there. Also use Nashville Songwriters Association but you have to be a member. Also i play the song for anyone who will listen.You do need a tough skin because sometimes people will tear your song apart,but always remeber a song critique is just a persons opinion. Take care, S.Dee
I play it for the band. The people who back me up are incredibly talented and seriously experienced musicians and songwriters -- more so even than I in some cases -- and they are all "tough rooms". If they're willing to play it, I'm good to go. Generally, they will make suggestions -- musically more often than lyrically, but sometimes both -- which will invariably make it a much song for their input. I've been playing with most of these people for 10 years now so I trust them to be honest, but we're also family so I feel safe too. My band are friends, mentors, family and co-creators. They're instincts are always right on. If they like it, I always feel confident putting it in front of an audience.
1. Play your music on the street...
People will give you money for
the songs they like...! (UFOjim)
2. Ask people in the Recording studio... which songs are the
most commercial...! (UFOjim)
At the beginning of my stint as an Arranging and Composition major at Berklee(79)I quickly noticed that my weekly arrangements were going home with the instructor, and taking an awfully long time to be returned to me. (He was actively gigging at the time.)I decided then that my weekly assignments would be as generic as possible, and with not much thought to the structure of the melody, but only to show the particular techniques in which I was instructed to apply.
However, I find that the best way to present your song is to perform it, or record it...and then, "Que Sera, Sera...whatever will be, will be."
My songs usually go through many phases.
1) Recorded on a handheld tape player. Listen back days later.
2) Then presented to the band. They shape the structure & add or subtract parts.
3) Perform in front of small groups of kids in my solo concerts & gauge their interest & responses to energy, feel, humor, etc
4) Record in studio. My engineer gives suggestions on what makes the song work.
5) Send to an guitarist friend for input.
6) Finally, make adjustments in instrumentation, vocal styling, lyrics & put it out for mass consumption.
At any given point in the process I'm ready to make changes or throw out the tune. If a song is to have any success it needs bold & thorough evaluation. Ego checked at the door. Mind open. Mouth closed. Do a lot of listening...to others. But, a stronger development is just listening to your gut. If something is even slightly amiss your gut should tell you. If you love everything in a song you wrote than sleep on it & listen again the next day. Ask yourself: would I play this in front of Bono, or Elton John, or whoever your music hero is? Maybe that's a bit harsh. But maybe that's the true litmus test.
Derek, Man I just have this feeling. If it feels good way down in my soul, I know someone else will feel what I'm feeling. In other words, if it feel good to me I will go for it. I write a lot of songs but if one keep grabbing at me, that is the one I need to record.
We keep all the unfinished stuff on our ftp - then share it among other musicians / friends. It would be nice to extend this mechanism to a larger extent - I think soundcloud is on the right direction. Maybe a "musicians only" last.fm where you get in touch with other musicians with similar tastes/styles and exchange advices. I don't believe in a few universal "tutors" or "expert" who pretend to give you hints on your music - especially now, with so many small niche-fragmented audiences and styles.
My songwriting falls into three categories: What I write-for-hire, what I write with my band, and what I write for myself.
The for-hire stuff is a no-brainer: make the client happy. Once in awhile a client will want something that I don't think suits the project, and if I think they're open enough and the timeline allows for it, I'll ask him/her to "try on" my idea first. If they don't like it after hearing it, I'll give them what they asked for initially (often I've written that already so they don't have to wait for a second round, if possible). Pretty straightforward.
If I'm writing for my band, there's my writing partner to bounce things off of. We also have a couple of people whose judgement we trust, and they'll give us feedback.
Because the group is very niche, it's important for us that we're getting feedback from people who like and listen to music in the genre. I don't think it's constructive to ask someone who generally loves country swing about your new metal song, regardless of what kind of relationship you otherwise have with the person. For me, knowing the likes and dislikes of our evaluators up-front saves time and confusion, and gives you more usable feedback.
It's also a good foundation when the haters come after you - sadly, there are always people who hate some kind of music and feel like they need to unload on you (some of these people are music critics!). So besides getting constructive criticism, having had some validation before our music goes public is good emotional support.
Lastly, when I write for myself, I listen to no one. Time will tell if the piece is great or awful, but in this writing mode it's important for me to hone my own instincts - that's part of my ongoing education. Sometimes I break as many rules as I can, while other times I write in a pre-determined box. I'm not on the clock, and I'm not servicing a client or a writing partner, so anything goes.
I think everyone needs to write in this space at least once in a while, just to see what you're capable of outside your usual writing habits and requirements. If I'm just curious, I might elicit feedback, just to see the response (usually 'what the heck is this noise?'). But in this case, what I learned from the process is the important thing, not the result.
There are very "few" naturally talented enough individuals who can go thru life and acheive great success on their raw talent alone. Most of us need to harness our natural (or un natural for that matter) talents thru patience, practice, experiment, study, experience, and the ability to take criticism good and bad. You might ask why should I take "bad" criticism? Answer: It is always good to see how you are viewed from a completely "different" perspective outside of your own venue. Even from within your venue it is still good to receive bad criticism. One can only stand so much though especially at one sitting! Ha! The object is to keep "growing" with your life experiences. You've heard the old adage: "Keep doing things the way you have been and you can expect to obtain the same results" is indeed true. With songwriting and music creation, you must continually re-invent the wheel to a certain extent otherwise you will get into a rut. Very, very, successful musicians often times find themselves in a rut!! And that's a good thing! It's not knowing your "in" a rut that can be more dangerous. Do not get me wrong here! Muddy Waters was stuck in a "rut" but what a soothing to the ear rut it was indeed. So on and so on. When most of us get into a rut is is not a good thing at all. So, in essence one's ability to accept criticism can only help to improve one's creativity. Quite honestly I do not see how most of us can get to the next level "without" some form of objective criticism from time to time.
derek
i trust my own instincts. i know i am a very good songwriter. i know my taste, and most importantly, i am at the point in my life, where i write what comes. i figure the songs are out there, i just sort of grabbed them. the last thing i want is some bozo's like taxi, evaluating my songs. their criteria is quite wacked. it would be great for american idol, but i'd rather put a needle in my eye. i'm sure this probably isn't helpful, but at least i responded. as woody would say, " take it easy, but take it", james manganello, workhouse poets
there is a site called www.tracktesting.com that do this. they will do one for free I think. We stumbled across it and did it as it was free, then if the track does well they suggest you pay them to distribute your stuff... of course everyone here is quite rightly with ceedee baby, so no sell there
Good idea though Derek, if done without the vested interests. Sorry if someone in the 549 replies above already said this... I only managed to read a couple of hundred and my eyes went blurred :(
I usually start with a scratch track...a couple of instruments so he can feel the vibe and a vocal...give it to my guitar player, and he'll tweak a few chords if needed and start messing with lyrics. he'll send what he changed back to me, and the song will continue to build until we're happy with what we've got, and then the "real" recording begins.
This is a complex subject. Opinions are very subjective to say the least.
1) Most people you play a song for will have a style of music they prefer and everything else is crap to them.
2) Every song I had RECORDED was turned down many times BY PUBLISHERS IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY. Some even went so far to say I was not a songwriter and had no business writing songs. I guess they did not get laid that day.
3) I was at a Taxi event some years ago with a panel of “Music Industry Experts” who were commenting on songs. An extremely well written song popped up that was done in the forties style. They ripped it to shreds, stomped on it, if there was toilet paper available they would of……. Within six months there was a resurgence of this style of music and songwriting several landed in the top ten on Billboard charts.
4) A major music publisher told me about a song she worked for over a year to no avail. It was turned down over and over. Then she got the song recorded and it went top ten. The same people who turned down the song called her and were angry that she did not present the song to them.
5) If anybody had a clue Artists like the Beatles would not have been turned down 30 times before someone got on board.
6) I once took a very highly touted class on songwriting by Pat somebody or other from Berkleey school of music. His course was centered on reading the classics half way through the class I realized he knew nothing about songwriting. What a critiquer he would have made.
7) Usually if a song is very much like a top ten song people will like it. If it is fresh new and original aka “different” people will not like it. Every major artist was different and broke the mold. So who is to say.
I am a songwriter with a bent for electronic devices to color and add ambience to sound. I spent a lifetime analyzing what in a record made self centered me emote. I wanted to understand what it was that stirred my soul and made me find; happiness, sadness, joy, exhilaration etc. I analyze songs that move me until I understand the ambiance of the song. When I write I work to capture that ambiance tone with in the framework of my own song. This approach has also come under fire more times than I can say. Also I find musicians are not a good sounding board, as most are not song writers. Ever listen to a great top forty club band who could play the top ten as good as the artist. Every lick and riff is perfect. Then they will play an original song and you find your self wondering where all those great chord sequences, riffs, licks and dynamics went. Have they learned nothing. Being a musician and being a songwriter are two different things. All this lead me to please myself, please myself, please myself Is that enough echo?
P.S. I play the songs for my cat. I know I have a winner if later in the day, he starts meowing the chorus of my song or leaves me a present in the cat box.
ng or leaves me a present in the cat box.
Here is the music I wrote that my cat liked
Surf
http://www.muzlink.com//artist.do?id=2333
Trans/Electronica
http://www.muzlink.com//artist.do?id=2352
Religious/Spiritual/Jewish
http://www.muzlink.com//artist.do?id=2332
or
Jeffjanning.com
Country (Ronnie Reed), Rock (Johnny Quick), Retro Rock Snocap engine on My Space or Jeffjanning.com
My songs all come from a deep need inside of me to express my life experience through my music. So I don't seek anyone's help or opinion when I write a new song. Oh, I hope people like them don't get me wrong, but it's ok with me if they don't.
I guess the best way to know if people like your stuff is when you find out it's being passed around on some of those trading sites.
You know they're stealing your music but it still feels good to know that they like it enough to steal it.
Derek,
Great subject!
First my wife hears it. She's a good judge because she brutally tells me when I'm on to something and when I'm not. I also get together with a group of other songwriters and we'll let each other hear works in progress to beat up and offer suggestions on lyrics to key choice, etc. The songs that get past those hurdles go into a performed set. I see how they are received by an audience. which is a whole other test. The other songs hang around and get tweaked for a while or trashed to make room for the new ones to go through the process.
when I've recorded a new song i immediately upload it to the myspace profile:
http://www.myspace.com/weareeachotherdotcom
and the imeem profile:
http://imeem.com/amnion
other people's opinions aren't something we usually solicit. i find that can impose boundaries on our creative process, and boundaries aren't what we're trying to define with the music we make.
thanks for getting in touch derek,
aaron
Our main question is: Would you buy it?
We are in the music business to develop artist that can hold an audience, connect with them, & create moments for them to remember.
Another good question Derek!
I used to use four "tools":
1. I rewrite until the song works or gets discarded. But I never throw anything away – going back months later, lines can inspire new songs.
2. When I have about 10 songs that both I and my partner like, I have a "wine tasting" party. I invite a cross section of my friends with diverse musical taste. After the tasting, by which time the guests are feeling pretty "honest", they have to "pay" by rating each song on feel, melody, words and overall rank. They also have a group discussion on what they like or don't like - all comments are captured. I'm only allowed to answer specific questions, otherwise I shut up. The next day I get over my ego and try to understand why the song provoked the comments and I make a selection based on the rating for the songs to take to the next level.
3. I take them to my producer and get his opinion which by now is more focused on edits and arrangements that will put the song in the best light.
4. I submit the song to a contest that will provide some feedback. I always submit one of the songs from the prior year again so that I can gauge how the judging may have changed between years.
Having gone through this process a few times, I've learned to be pretty objective, so step 2 happens less often and step 4 is used more as a benchmark for where my songs stand against other writers and the "taste" of the industry.
I hope this is useful to anyone that reads it – being in Australia I'm often asleep while these pages fill up, so I expect by the time I post this everyone else will have wandered off elsewhere in cyberspace
Gavin.
AND, to make enough money to support our touring.
I do much of what you ask in your topic. Since I am a Christian, and write songs for God, my first objective is to please Him. I figure if He is pleased, probably humans will like it also, but it isn't always the case. I just trust my 'inner Spirit' and go for it. I try to work out of abundance, hopefully bettering my chances of coming up with some good material. Music, like art, is so subjective, and it depends on the listeners likes and dislikes... does everyone hang the same type of art on their wall? Nope. So, half the battle is finding your audience. Those that play live have an advantage, because they have instant focus groups. Those like me who just love to create songs but don't play live, (yet(: it is much tougher. I do email MP3's to a group of my friends, asking for their honest opinion. I also post songs at MySpace, and that has been a great place to get feedback. I've had to be creative, but it's been fun. It can also be discouraging, because of the volume of material, digital instruments, ease creating music, and everyone just seems to be into their own thing. I recently came across this qoute: "I've been through the golden age of … 'till now, and what I always tell artists is keep producing and sharpening your skills," he said. "Always try different sounds and styles and never get caught in the record label talk. Master your sound and business first on your own, and if the labels come you'll be 100% ready. Try to avoid show scammers who make you pay for gigs and run off with your money, and fake label A&Rs who say they're with fake companies just to hear your music and take ideas.” Who said it? Hip hop artist Ques.
Our local songwriters association (SUSWA) meets weekly for what we call "Tune-smithing". If someone has a song they are working on, they bring a dozen or so copies of lyrics to pass around. During the workshop everyone that wants to, shares the new tune they are working on. Listeners make comments either vocally, or on the page, then everyone turns them back into the writer. The writer can either use the feed back to tweak their song, or leave it and call it good. Afterwards we all head down to the open mic, and that's the place that someone can showcase a finished new tune and get some audience feedback.
I usually ask my wife for her feed back and praises, I also like to play the rough copy back a few times on cassette and disc until it sounds right for me.
If I'm writing a song for strictly commercial purposes, I want it to sell itself or sell something else, then feedback can be a very useful tool to reach that goal, and I will seek it out and apply it. Usually playing it for friends who I respect their opinion, or someone from the demographic I'm targeting.
Most of the time I'm not motivated by commerce, I'm strictly in art mode, what materializes is what gets printed, feedback is irrelevant. If it sells, great, but I can't let outside influence dictate or steer my creative process in anyway, or the result will be impure. I will play it for people, sometimes ask what they think, but nothing ever gets changed based on their opinion, I just like to know if it is touching them on a personal level.
Well what I do
First, I play it for a few friends, too see what they think.
Second, I branch out to more
people some well know some not.
But I would ask what they think?
And I get reviews
I would even take it to my local paper or other bands get opinions
Much Love and Light
Richard Spasoff
I belong to a songwriting group here in Nashville that meets every Monday for critiquing each other's songs. I find that helpful. However, one needs to be careful, especially around other songwriters because you will always find someone who thinks his or her idea is better, no matter how good your song is, so I recommend only changing a song if and when you personally think a suggestion is better.
The biggest mistake I observe here in Nashville is songwriters without cuts taking a suggestion if someone has a cut but ignoring suggestions from someone who doesn't. Often, someone with cuts makes a bad suggestion and someone without any cuts makes a good one.
Thus, my only rule of songwriting is, if someone has as many cuts as Bob Dylan or, if someone who has never written a song makes a suggestion, I recommend always using the suggestion if you personally think it makes your song better and never using a suggestion if you don't personally think it makes your song better.
If you don't learn to do this, other writers will shred your songs, because they will always have suggestions, many of which are not the best idea; only you have the total vision and perspective of what you are trying to do with your song and you have to learn to protect your song against often bad suggestions from someone who only casually hears or looks at your lyrics on paper once and really doesn't know very well what you are trying to do.
I too used to participate in organization run songwriter workshops where your material gets analyzed. Sometimes I feel the comments and comparisons are really not appropriate for your intended goal, and the resulting analysis is too technical, and not based on the most important elements of what makes a song work.
In the past few years I have learned to play new material for my teen age (music) students, since they are brutally honest about what is cool or not. Also, it's good to have honest feedback that speaks from genuine reaction to what is heard, not deciphering whether you follow the rules.
try it out at a live gig.....and you will know what is not working....rework it.....then try it again at another gig.....and over the coarse of a few months it starts to grow into what it is going to become....and its time to record it....i guess i should add prior to trying it at a live gig....you work out 4 trac versions and listen to those in your car or where ever...and work those a bit....then teach it to your band mates....and it gets reworked a bit there prior to the insersion into the set list.....
Yeah, this is an interesting topic. Ultimately, we as songwriters have to get up and believe in what we're playing. I think that if the message is real, from the soul/heart, then that's a great start.
Because the arts are so subjective and dependent on factors such as venue, clientele, mood, etc..
For instance - playing acoustic soul stuff at a dive bar craving cover songs that they can sing along to whilst getting plowed is not good. However, being in the artsy districts of some cooler cities will yield more of a welcoming feel.
Garageband.com & acidplanet.com are a couple sites that come to mind immediately for feedback/critiques.
Again the major issue with these is that some kid juiced up on prozac piping ICP isn't going to get that acoustic soul song either and will poo all over it.
A school like Berklee would yield educated, insightful, helpful feedback (for students and workshops). #1, it's a jazz/contemporary school #2, it's in Boston... both with a myriad of experiences and options, etc..
Anyway, music, like a lot of things should be experimented/tested, the limits pushed, and any molds broken. WHY NOT?! We write songs for a reason, let's remember that reason when we hit the stage or studio and do our best to make listeners feel as close to that same vibe as possible, or at least something cool
As long as the mentor, venue, workshop (whatever feedback vehicle) is in the same context (credible and respected and in the same genre/style), then it should be helpful.
This inspired a song feedback group I just created on myspace. Please join and let's get started helping each other.
http://groups.myspace.com/songfeedback
I didn't think I had an approach until I thought about it.
If I am working on a few songs that have a verse, chorus, bridge and possible intro., I then jam with a drummer friend of mine. Out of three to six song ideas, I find out quickly what is working and what feels like work. I then take the recording of this jam, listen to it a day or so later, and fine tune.
After this stage I tend to introduce a bass player, or another neutral instrument to make my final decision. If there is energy in the room, and the dudes are having fun, I then feel I am on the right track. I will then take that recorded jam and start planning for record.
After doing some rough recordings, drum machine-scratch vocals,etc....I attend a few party's and slip them in the sound system. This is where reality sets in. If people seem to like it, or not even notice-this means good. If people start saying things like "what is this &^$*#&*" or who put this ($(^it on!?".....I am usually the first guy to say "I dunno?"
I have used www.garageband.com to provide some very interesting reviews. I have found that this forum is generally musicians, providing some great feedback. I still hold the #1 All-time spot in Experimental Rock for a song titled
"Well Gone Dry"....Yeeee Haaaaa!
Stepping completely outside my safety-zone I decided to enter a few guitar competitions in Buffalo NY,
http://guitarcompetition.org/history.asp
and San Francisco CA.
http://hero.guitarplayer.com/
I used these forums to test may songs. I converted songs into instrumentals "guitar competitions" and watched for the reactions. Well.......I took first place at "The North American Rock Guitar Competition 06" in Buffalo NY.
....And came in second for Guitar Player's "Guitar Hero III competition 07"! Yikes! This was quite extreme, even for me!
Any-who.......
Les is More
Normally I have a pretty good idea what I want to do with a song when i get a worked idea. When it's at a reasonable draft state I normally run it by my girlfriend. She has a great ear and always spots the wavering bits.
I'm of the school that if you make it bland, repetative, and pretty mindless you probably have a top 10 hit on your hands. But who wants to do that I'd rather have some originality, thought, metaphor and layers to a song which probably spells commercial disaster. You have to be true to your ideals. So go listen to some of my stuff at http://www.myspace.com/velvetrazorrocks listen to some songs and tell me if I am spouting nonsense.
Hi Derek,
Thanks for all your emails, interesting and helpful.
I do have a mentor and I trust him, he listens over and over cause he's usually in the same part of the house (my favorite spot for songwriting is at the kitchen table)he is my partner and a fine musician/ piano tech. who is very honest, he knows my music.
i went to one songwriting seminar at chico state in 1975. cant remember a single thing i learned there except to write and re-write. i put my songs into 2 categories. one or the other. if they flow out words and music together...........and i dont struggle with it. its done. i play it at a gig without introduction.
the other category is a melody/music first and partial lyric/music later......or visa versa. some of those songs have spanned 20 years or more. ive written and re-written those based on crowd (big or small) reaction.
i never ask for constructive input.......but when its offered.....i take notes.
what i feel are my best songs...have come from both categories.
I let the song age a little bit and
give it some more listens. Either it has magic or it doesn't. And I am the only one who can judge that. HOWEVER.. I do know that there are individuals who are astute at listening and can either enjoy the song or not on some kind of artistic plateau without their own ego involvement. Listening is 1/2 of music and poetry and lyrics composition. But first the song has to pass my test for magic. If I didn't think my opinion was most important, then there would be no reason to write. acie
I do play a song for close friends, maybe... but...I do songs mainly for myself, and not for making money, so the whole process is different. I do appreciate critique, and when I get it, I sometimes use it, sometimes not. Music for me is a release, a biproduct of who I am and a situation that occurs. Surely the road not to success eh?
I am from that era of the teacher/ Mentor approach. In my songwriting nurturing period I was studying with either Alex deGrassi or Ed Gerhard. I would often perform a composition for them and then get their feedback. Now I feel quite proficient and what I like to do now is let the song evolve on it's own. It seems the more I play a piece some of me gets in there yet some of the songs personallity leads me in that direction. I treat them like children and they do grow and have their own identities..weird but works for me.
I just finished by 7th CD. I start with the usual stuff - get opinions for friends and play the song live.
Then the next step is I make a rough draft CD and a questionnaire. I invite my network of about 40 people consisting of recording artists, fans, producers and a few people not terribly familiar with my music, to listen to the rough draft and complete the questionnaire. About 25 agreed last CD. The questionnaire asks to rate the songs on a scale of 1 - 10, indicate your favorites, suggest was to improve any or all, and as feedback on titles for the songs and CD, etc.
I send them either a physical CD or downloads by YouSendIt and a PDF document. After waiting about 3 - 4 weeks I compile the feedback, use what seems most helpful to refine the songs and decide which will "make" this CD. I started with 15 songs this time and ended up with 11 on my new CD.
Not only did I get some great feedback on the compositions, but I ended up changing the title of the CD and am very happy I did. The new title is Beauty and Fire and will be out April 2009.
I usually play it at an open mike, not just to judge how the audience liked it, but how did it feel playing it live, was it as good as when I wrote it, better or worse?
I'm lucky in that I live with a great musician, my wife Janette Geri,have a couple of other muso writer mates who I can take ideas to, and now, my band The Realistics.
Janette is my executive producer when it comes to my writing, enligtening me to grammar, arrangement and other things that would slip by me. The muso mates are the ones who usually hear my demos and are able to look past a dodgy recording straight to the song. (I believe works in progress, particularly recorded demos, should only be played to your peers and be kept close to the chest.9 times out of 10 Aunty Muriel or Steve @ the Auto Shop will only hear a rough, hurried recording and wont be able to get past this to the song itself. Your peers should be able to differentiate, and if they don't-get some new ones!)My greatest litmus testers at the moment are my band, who I now actually write for, and with our lineup in mind.Ultimately, when debuting a new song live, take a good look around the room at your audience. Watch for feet tapping, rapt attention or conversely a man with a rope.
I PLACE THE SONG ON CD AND THEN I LISTEN TO IT IN MY CAR FOR THREE TO FIVE DAYS. I THEN LET MY COUSIN LISTEN TO IT AND THEN MICHELL LISTEN. AND BY THE END OF THE WEEK IF EVERYBODY AGREES I THEN RECORD IT. BUT I HAVE TO FEEL IT. FEEL IS THE KEY TO A GREAT SONG .
Hello derek,
Wow, what a response to this question.
It is some years since I wrote a song, and a great deal of them have done well.
The latest writing was a guitar instrumental called "Riverbank Ramble", and one of our top guitarists of the 70s and 80s, Peter Posa, asked me while Noelene and I were on tour with him, if he could take my instrumental for himself, it so impressed him.
I wrote it in a couple of days, as I had been looking for a new piece to include on a new album, and even before I'd recorded it, I was receiving positive feedback on it, several even suggesting it would go well as the theme tune for a western movie.
But I have always felt my wife Noelene was, and still is, my best critic, she says how it is, and I accept it. Whether I am writing a song, or doing a guitar piece, or learning someone else's song.
If it does not suit me, she will tell me, and I have possibly had reservations about it myself, anyway.
We just feed off each other, but the ultimate test, is to sing a new song at a concert, and await any comments afterwards.
I soon learn if it is below par, or fantastic, or whatever.
In more recent times, a good guage for us, is the times certain tracks have been downloaded by people from our CD Baby sites, and we get laods of pleasure from that.
Keep up the great work.
Rex Franklin
Our feedback on a new song or music has worked best by just letting the public make a reply via e-mail off the CD. One did you like the lyrics / Two was the beat easy to listen to / Three would you consider buying a single or the whole album / Four would you recommend the album to family and friends. The e-mail link on the CD be it a single or a whole album works best for people love to make comments good or bad. Shelby Out
Since I write children's music I perform it for all different types and groups of children, parents and teachers and look for their reactions, movements, and responses. They are the best critics since they're the ones the music is written for. I can usually tell right away if the music engages them or leaves them feeling disinterested. I also listen to their creative and imaginative input and make changes always keeping it a work in progress.
I've always been too uncomfortable to show a song to anyone before it's finished,recorded and mastered...The reason being is that a lot of people including musicians can have a tendency to compare an unfinished work to finished CDs they own or songs they hear on the radio...The one time I took a chance and showed a demo to a musicain friend, he asked me why it wasn't as loud and punchy like other dance tracks he had heard. I then went to great lengths to explain it wasn't mastered yet but he still didn't get it...You'd be surprised how many pro musicians don't quite understand what professional mastering can do to a song
I don't really ask for opinions. I am my worse critic and I leave it at that. The songs I write are simple. I try not to get to intense on making my songs perfect. My writings depend on how I feel and that is my art. So if Im having difficulty wth a song, I'll just shelf it and get around to it later...
My process is as follows, usually I will write a 24-48 bar melody or riff, either with the daw or the guitar, then reassess the piece over a few listens, if the piece has body and sounds like a viable piece I'll present it to my wife who is a grinder of a critic but has a fabulous ear and if it gets a thumb up I'll return to the studio and keep writing, I'm odd because most of my music is already finished in my head by the time I actually sit down to compose it
I THINK IT DEPENDS ON WHAT TYPE OF SONGWRITER YOU ARE. IF YOU WRITE FOR YOUR AUDIENCE THEN YOU MAY FEEL YOU HAVE TO PLEASE THEM, SO IT WOULD BE SMART TO ASK THEM WHAT THEY THINK IF YOUR ARE NOT YOUR OWN BEST CRITIC. IF YOU ARE A BLEEDER LIKE ME THEN YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO PLEASE YOURSELF IN ORDER TO FILL THAT HOLE YOU HAVE IN YOUR SOUL. IN MY SITUATION IT DEPENDS ON CAPTURING THE MAGIC SOMEWHERE IN EACH SONG I CREATE SO THAT I CAN LISTEN TO IT OVER AND OVER AND NOT GET TIRED OF IT AND THAT THE RECORDING DOES NOT HURT YOUR EARS IN CASE SOMEONE ELSE DOES THE SAME THING. DURING THE PROCESS OF WRITING IF SOMEWHERE DURING THE SONG I DON'T FEEL THE SAME THING I FELT THAT MADE ME WANT TO WRITE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE , I STOP THERE AND GO BACK TO WHERE THE FEELING GOT LOST. IF YOU WRITE IN ORDER TO SELL THEN TARGET YOUR AUDIENCE AND GET ANY KIND OF FEEDBACK YOU NEED TO GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT. IF YOU WRITE BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CHOICE THEN SEEK TO COMFORT YOUR OWN HEART, THIS WILL BE HEARD AN YOU WILL COMFORT THE HEARTS OF OTHERS. AL THE REV.
I no longer ask for help to improve or finish a song except for the arrangement.Sometimes my producer will suggest one less chorus or a different order for the verses. I often write songs that can be performed in different genres so I will take it to a blues jam, then an open mike and then maybe a bluegrass band.Eventually it will find it's own way to be played.
When I write a new song I try to fall in love with it. If I listen it will even tell me its name. After that I enter it in Finale and play it back and listen more. Then off to the gig to try it out with the band. They will go for it, then after the set they make their comments. It can go either way but I believe in them and they are most always right. "That one is hard to play, that one is hard to understand, that one is a great song. Where do you get this stuff?"
As you can see it varies, but mostly I know when I get it right and if necessary I can stick up for it. But I'll have to admit there are a lot of songs sitting in the back files of the computer that just didn't make it but I can't delete them, a parent thing I guess. Don Alberts
I always write down everything that comes to me and start playing until I have what was in my head. Some songs are complete and others I go back to. If I don't capture what's in my head at that moment, It's lost forever. I've never been interested in opions, if those who give them really knew what was best, they'd write their own. I just do my thing and if someone likes it, great. Music's never been a competition for me. There's very few songs I don't like and those are ussually designed by someone to be a hit, They're obviously not from anyones heart.
When I write lyrics I make changes only in an effort to find words that sing better and mean the same thing.
Hey Derek,
Music has always been something very personal to me. Asking someone what they think of my music is like asking them what they think of me... they are inextricably combined. Moreover, if I cared so much about what other people thought, my music would cease to be 'my music' and would then become a tragic attempt at meeting someone else's idea of what is worthy to be called 'good music'... or worse, trying to fit the mold of some executive that hasn't the faintest idea of what artist expression is all about;)
Thanks for askin the great questions!
When I was in Dallas in the '70s, there was a company that rated recordings for record companies using a small audience each connected to electronics similar to a lie detector.
They found that it was useful especially for songs that would normally only win you over after several plays.
That technology could be provided to todays musicians to own at a reasonable price.
If I'm collaborating on a song, for a musical comedy for example, the composer and I will argue, cajole, and harangue each other until we come up with something both of us can live with.
If I'm writing a song by myself, I'm uninterested in feedback until it's finished for me. Then I start playing it for people. If it works, it works. Otherwise, there are more songs to be written.
Writing this now, I'm unable to decide which process I like better.
It may sound arrogant or whatever, but I don't really want feedback for songs anymore... I'm happy to write mostly from intuition and experimentation and create what I like. I honestly don't care if it's perfect, if there even is such a thing, especially in the eyes of anyone else. It is what it is, and I've learned to trust my own perspective and judgment to be very happy with that... When other people do like it as it is, that's terrific, but I believe I would still put out the same albums, regardless. There's a song on my upcoming album that I don't expect to be anyone's favorite... I could probably replace it with something catchier or more straightforward. But it has personal resonance and I think it still fits well on there among the other tracks... so it's an important part of the "album" in the same sense that a photo album depicts different aspects of your life during a particular time. Those are the kinds of albums I like best, that are like "musical photo albums" and have at least some of those kind of tracks, and not just 12 songs that some producer thought would make good singles.
I will always gladly accept and process feedback and criticism from any source, but I never feel an obligation to act upon it. Now, the exception is if I'm writing something with another person, or have a producer involved, then yeah, there may be some very direct feedback and criticism that has to be worked out... In that case I find that whenever there's a clash about something, where one person really likes something but the other wants something different, there's usually a third (or fourth or fifth) option that is better than either of the two previously fought for options.
But the problem with "song feedback" from outside sources is that if one person (no matter who they are or what an "expert" they are) tells you something that they really don't like or that they think could be better about your song, and you change it for the sake of what their particular taste is, you may be changing something that many many other people might have really liked just fine as it was. Even if there's a consensus about something from several people, it still doesn't necessarily mean you should change it. Sometimes the author/artist really does know best about their own work, and maybe only a handful of people will appreciate it, but so what? Some things are meant to be "cult" or have a niche audience.
Here's an anecdote that describes why I'm wary of songwriting workshops and "feedback parties" and such... Polyclitus, it is said, once sculpted two statues at the same time: one in his living room, in public view, and one in his bedroom, which he worked on privately and kept wrapped in a tarpaulin. When visitors came by, they would comment on the public work, saying, "The eyes aren't quite right" or "That thigh is too long," and Polyclitus would incorporate their suggestions. All the while, however, he kept the other statue a secret. Both works were completed at about the same time and were mounted in the city square in Athens. The statue that had been designed by committee was openly mocked and ridiculed. The statue he'd done by himself was immediately proclaimed a transcendental work of art. People asked Polyclitus, "How can one statue be so good and the other so bad?" And Polyclitus answered, "Because I did this one and you did that one."
Derek?
When I write a song, I write what is real mixed with a little imagination. I use keywords to keep me on track of the story line and I always remember THE HOOK OF ANY SONG IS THE KEY TO THE LISTENER. Something catchy, sing song and easy to remember. Not necessarily a cliche' or a slang, something that is clever, that makes sense and makes your listened think and want to be a part of and identify with the story line.
I also write poetry. So I in cooperate a hook line in the poetry to make it a sing song, song and use a clever musical accent, like a bass line or a guitar line.
I use daily news stories, political jargon, sexy innuendo and suggestive phrases to write lyrics that match the musical tracking.
Then its off to the races. To test it all, I find as many teenagers as I can and play it for them. If they like the first three beats, I know I have something worth the world's notice.
As a program director in radio, my only job was to pick hits. If the new song didn't keep my attention for the first three beats, I did not listen any longer so the song was not played.
NeferNefertiti
I have always found that playing my music in front of a group of people tells me a lot. More than anything anyone can say to me, it is what I feel while they listen. If I am embarrassed or unsure about any section I take note. It is a moment of truth. If I am paying attention I will know what I need to change.
I usually sing and play the song for the band and see how they react to the song, completed. If I can see in their faces, that they're already running over their parts on the instruments, or they reach to get their instrument, on the first hearing, I figure, it's a pretty good song for us to perform together, or record. The only other measure, is an audience, for me. If it engages them in an emotional way, it's a good song. If they decide in droves, to get up and go get a hotdog, or make a trip to the restroom, in the middle of a new tune, you need to rework or scrap it.
I don't usually ask anyone directly, what they think about the tune. If they feel the need to tell me, that's fine. My husband seeks advice in the process of writing a song, but I would never do that. That's just not productive for me.
I'm my worst critic. One out of ten ideas of mine get finnished.-I like to leave the idea for a few days before getting serious with it-- most of the time I'll come back to it and say to myself--"what the hell was I thinking??" But every once in a while it'll come together. I love it when a song takes less than hour to write.
I began writing poetry at 9. By the time I was 21, a friend helped me to escape from all the obnoxious arrogant pretentious fame seekers I knew and hade grown up with in New York City. It was then that I wrote my first song...in a Ford Fairlane Convertable heading to California with a friend, now a beloved and famous musician/songwriter. He gave me my first guitar and taught me three songs: Caanan Land, House of the Rizing Sun and one of his originals. I felt so liberated. By and by, I wrote my first song: Love Is the Answer because I was desperate to get away from those family members (drug addicts and thugs), who had so mutilated me that I really wanted to kill them. (An artist must have fuel to create...and transforming my pain and grief became my fuel and lifted me up instead of taking me down.) I thought they didn't deserve to live. But it wasn't up to me. I knew that, but didn't want to fall into the trap and spend the rest of my life in prison. So I turned to the Great Spirit and begged for courage and strength and self control. And whoa!...the Muses arrived and gave me the song.
From then on, the melodies and lyrics followed like rain on a hot summer day in Arizona. I'm 66 years old now and have written more songs than I can keep in my hand. If I don't play them, I forget the progressions. But when I play them, the world falls away and I am whole again. The Spirit within turns on and nourishes me.
For me, songwriting is survival. I don't care if you like it or not. I don't care if it sells or is forgotten. It is already in the ether. I put it there and it is there forever. Those who need it, will find it in themselves. Life is about inspiration. Life without inspiration is not living. And I am still alive. I just finished my 9th album and feel as young as a flower. But I am almost ready to return to the Spirit world and leave this body...and body of work.
If you write songs for the money and waste your precious energy trying to contrive something that is not completely honest and real...you will fall into the ego trap. It's a dead end.
Hopefully others will love you for your music because it a refuge for them and leads them up the Sacred Path of Being. Being is always true, never contrived, never created to seduce falsely. Inspiration is what we're looking for.
Just be honest. The songs you write will out live you. Don't leave a bunch of lies and conceit. The music is the best medicine for all that ails the soul. Respect it. Honor it. Never capitulate to trying to impress. Just be real. Just feel. We can't hide. Even a cat will know if you're a shallow phoney. A caterpiller will flee from you. But when we're true, there is a ringing in the Universe. Harmonics the material ear doesn't hear, but we notice that all of life responds to it and is grateful for it.
Just write your songs when they overflow from your heart. If you sit and contemplate that you must write a song tonight, the sound will be flat and it will offend the inner ear, which is where we hear the Truth.
The music I've been given to write pours spontaneously and it heals my broken wings so I can fly again. Fly with me and don't be afraid. Sometimes a year or two even will go by, and you'll wonder, will I ever write another song?...am I dried up and dead. But do not worry little bird, there are many more songs that you will write. But you are not in control of it. It controls you. The music has written my Life as I walked dumbly, seeking pleasure and full of trickery in my early days. Now the music is such a great comfort to me. Let the Universe write your songs. Then they will pour out miraculously and refresh you in a way that food and drinking and drugs never can.
In the meantime, be a friend, share and reciprocate because friendships bring Peace to World. Learn to be a true friend and you will find the Muses delight in your honesty and simplicity so much that they will gift you again and again with masterpiece after masterpiece.
Of course if you want to make money and go on tour, you may burn out and become disgusted with yourself and with Life. Music is a Sacred Journey. We all have music within. There's no need to force it. When it comes out, give it freely. The world is so starving for the real vibration. Feed the world and be thankful that you are so blessed an individual and so privelged to have something beuatiful that vibrates in the hearts of others. Don't let it go to your head. That to me is the greatest wealth and surpasses any royalties one can earn doing back flips thru hoops of fire to please the Backer. The Almighty twisted Backer.(smile...only kidding) Go forth with your music and be happy that you can still sing and have hands to play the songs of your Life. Aloha,Harmony
(Owl Woman Still Standing)
myself I first get all copywrite in order, before I let anyone here my music, some be finished some do not but I still pass out a few demos just to get the word out and the rest is history thanks to cdbaby i'm doing very check us out @ www.cdbaby.com/mgmusic2
As much as I value feedback from many sources on material that will be placed on an album - for my soon to be released CD I queried loyal fans, other songwriters and friends and family to help narrow down the choices - I choose what songs I sense are meant to go past my living room and out into the world.
Ultimately, this is my creative process, my voice, my connection to the voice of creation and I need to trust it in order to be unique and authentic.
Of course, if I am trying to write hits I will need to follow a formula and objective criteria could determine whether or not I am succeeding. But is this art? I don't think so.
I believe that as we mature as artists, as we move beyond the realm of "Me" to the meeting place of "We", we can accurately gauge the depth and value of the songs we create.
Oona
Ourstage has given me some ideas, as well as the critiques from TAXI. I think the best "critique" comes from a complete stranger. In fact, I've presented songs (not disclosing the fact that I wrote them) and asked for unbridled opinions. Honesty is the best policy. Brutal answers make me sharper, and "kind" responses make me a little suspicious!
Charm can be deceitful.
Good blog here.
Wanda
When I was going at a faster clip and trying to sell some music,Nils Lofgren(don't even know if that spelling is correct) had an open mic in one of the casinos South of town. I played there regularly with some very honest critique. One song out of those times went on a CD benefit to NYC Port Authority Police and NYC Fire Dept. Local talent I think through musicians friend stores. Nationwide with finals of the country. Best response I had ever experienced. The old 4 anything gamer/chat site had live music with concerts by people who would come and play. There were some problems like a lot of bad music to listen to while waiting to play. I have been a pretty lazy musician and bigger dreamer, but I believe I can write. Never once did I catch any sort of projectile in the head. I have some music on my space/rtcane. I am a Christian but and after 30 years of hypocrisy and playing as a seeker of truth I have found the genius; not in religion, but reality.
If the chord progression / arrangement comes first, then it's set in stone before I bring it to people.
I had a new experience where I started at night job that woke me up at 2am and really messed with my internal clock. The alarm jolted me out of bed and I was dreaming with this song playing in the background. It wasn't anyone else's so I felt that also had to be intact how I heard it in the dream. So I brought it complete to the studio, they loved it.
If the melody comes first I love to collaborate and create true art together. I feel most alive when this happens. Something amazing for the melody to float over the top of, the arrangement can change wildly. Input is so great here. The average is 6 out of 10 songs seem to come out this way.
Lyrics rarely come first, but when they do, then everything is open for changing and creating. Maybe 1 out of 10 songs come this way.
So I write 4 different ways, but it's not me who chooses the way, the inspiration does.
I like to test a new song in front of an audience, without any hullabaloo. I prefer not to tell anyone that's its homegrown for awhile. That way people give fairly accurate feedback. If they start requesting the song then its good. If you get more dancers than the covers your playing better yet, and if they tell you that song sucks and ask you why you played it, well it was by request, and you hope they understand. Just don't tell them who requested the song (you),Life is fun if you live it with a twist, Kevin
I just let you hear it where I've posted it as a FREE dl for awhile until it's on the upcoming cd, "The fantom and me"
here:
www.circleblue.net/letsdance.html
any takers?
Dear Derek,
Thanks for your dedication to the nurturing of independent artists. You would be forever remembered for the encouragement, knowledge and exposure you afford through your passion to see others succeed.
What do I do for feed back on my music: When I write my songs I would sing for my family, churches or any form of gathering. I would ask about what they think, like and don't like. That helps me to understand and accept strengths and weaknesses in my writing.
I also ask my music arranger and cautiously remain open to constructive criticism. I say cautious, because it is natural for one to feel offended when his/her song is being critiqued. Nonetheless, with a mature approach, I would continuously grow to that place of perfecting a true openness to being critiqued. As a matter of course, being open to critique is one of the most intelligent ways measure the quality of a song that ultimately brings success.
The songs we sing reverberate off our audiences/listners, hence it is only wise that we listen to the echo and openly accept the truth of its clarity or obscurity.
Being open to critique is like looking into the mirror and accepting that there are blemishes on our faces and doing whatever it takes to bring about change, which is not always easy but worth every measure of energy exerted to see a positive outcome.
Being open to critique is a stepping stone to perfect ones craft and hence a propeller to success.
Hi Dereck,
I have placed mix/mastered songs on a CD for folks to listen to, or buy online. Played them at live shows with my band for response. I have submitted CDs to magazines or newspapers for music review, submitted to record companies, and to radio stations.
My experience has been that many of the "So called music experts" are more about strictly "Their Point of View", or in other words, their own self interest. Although I do want the opinion of the "So called experts", to me the real judge is the Public.
There have been many a band or song that was rejected by some Record AR Expert, to have it finally released to the Public, who judged it a HIT.
So, criticism is good, but just remeber that not everyone will like your music. It's up to you to find your audience.
Art Carter, Orlando, Florida
I don't really let anybody hear anything until I'm in love with it. The song doesn't have to be finished by any means, but basically, if I play a verse for somebody, it's already a good verse.
The band gets to hear it first, but they usually don't say much except, "oh you know what would sound cool? ... *plays guitar*"
I also have a songwriting mentor that I go to when a song is finished. She will usually have additions or a few suggestions, and I go with them about 60% of the time.
Once I have lyrics typed out, I send them through e-mail to all of my friends just to get some feedback... the fewer responses I get, the more I need to work on it.
And, of course, the final song is played live and if the audience is feeding energy back my way the first time they hear a new song, then I know it's a keeper.
- Emma
I'm really surprised by most of the replies here. Do painters 'focus group' their paintings? Do dancers allow the audience to participate in the choreography process? I create music to express MYSELF, and not pander to the vagaries of public opinion. I want my music to be a direct reflection of what I'm feeling at the time I compose the tune; not an compromised amalgam of what others feel my end result should be. It seems like most people here are writing 'product', and not art. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's be really clear what we're talking about here.
Perform Live.
When you perform live, you can see and feel the reaction of the people in the audience.
This will instantly tell you how people are responding to your song and your performance.
The more you have refined your song, and sharpened your song writing skills, the more you will have confidence in the quality of your material, and confidence of the reaction you will get when you perform it live, or represent it on a recording.
AARON WOLFSON
http://www.aaronwolfson.com
I generally work a song till I'm satisfied with it and then let my husband hear it. If it's good, I'll hear him humming it before too long.
About 10 years ago, I worked with an excellent songwriting coach who taught me a lot of basics for creating a great song. He gave me songwriting critique for $15/week for 6 months and would listen to anything and everything I sent every week. I truly noticed that even I liked what I was writing better after I worked with him.
One of the previous posters was correct though. Music is subjective. A couple of my songs that I was told by the pro probably wouldn't get radio play were the first the DJ played when I got a local on-air interview. One of them even won a songwriting contest. (The coach I worked with was excellent at allowing me to keep my creativity while giving me advice as to what "sold" a song - He'd been an A&R rep for a reputable label and was even recommended as a coach by that label after he left that position)
I highly recommend working with a professional for a time when you're honing your skills.
Hi Derek,
I write music not for gain money, just for music records to be more and more in my Repertoire,
I write The Brain for Symphony Orchestra during my wife's brain surgery, inspiration came by it self how difficult is some one have brain surgery and get paralyzed.
This music is online published in www.sibeliusmusic.com
Honestly, I write songs for myself, not for other people. And I have peculiar taste! lol
I'll play a work in progress for friends if I'm pleased with the way it's turning out, but I'm not really seeking approval or suggestions. I'm just going to do whatever I set out to do anyway.
Here is an example of what I am doing now.
I have a instrumental song that I am working on. I recorded a short simple 1 minute version of it (a preliminary sketch if you will)
I gave this out as a free download track to my mailing list. And asked everyone what they think of it.
Next week I am going to post a video of me working on the album (4 minutes long) version, on youtube.
I am thinking as the recording progresses, I will post more vids of the recording process. I will get feedback and hopefully get people into the song before it gets released.
Hi Derek. I usually record tracks at my home studio and then bring it to the band for imbelishment and ideas. Sometimes I produce the entire thing and bring the band a finished product. Currently, I am writing a lot and thinking about a solo cd. Great job with these blogs. I went to Berklee also and live 30 minutes north of Boston. It`s a great place!
D -
Intuitive question man - when I'm in process I'll throw it past other songwriters I know in my circle; pitch lyrical concept then a rough sketch melody; not even necessarily all together; it can give a good feel as to whether the cornerstone pieces are going to get the point across -
My Pop's been a songwriter all his life and he is also a great resource for me; he's creeping 70 now, and can see through the mechanics of genre or production and see the tune cleanly; he's not looking at whether it's "now" or not, because the tune should be at it's core a good song/lyric, and the production/structure can really be used to define the "current" feel -. The downside to his context is that he's my Dad and brutally honest - I may have a turn of phrase that I love, that has propelled the song/lyric in a certain direction; and he can sink it with his objectivity - the thing that kills the most is that 9 out of ten times he's right on (damn it!)
Taxi isn't bad to join nowadays either, when your song is complete (are they really ever?)- even if the opportunities themselves are not of interest, they give some pretty even handed reviews/suggestions - you've just got to be able to digest the info and come back to it if you get offended that someone you don't know (like most listeners will be) don't get your tune -
My two cents anyway . . .
PVG
As a singer/songwriter I need to wrtie the songs that I feel. I write a song when inspiration strikes. I write the whole thing (most often) in one sitting. I play the song until I have it memorized. Let it sit a couple days and then come back and play it again.
If I still like it at that point, it's usually because the music is good and the lyrics mean something. Sometimes it feels finished and perfect, but other times I tweak a chord, the progression, the rhythm, or the lyrics--whatever needs to be nudged to make the whole work jive.
Then I play it at a coffee shop and if people like it I keep it. If not it stays in a notebook until a rainy day when I look back over older songs that didn't make the cut. Then sometimes I'll revive it.
The key to good song writer is to KEEP WRITING! Do it all the time. Don't worry about salvaging eveery song. Some songs are not worth the effort. Feel free to keep them recorded on a tape and in a noptebook, but then move on.
I've written over 600 songs over the past 11 years, but I only play the cream of the crop--which is about 100 of them. Every song will not be a hit. You can't even guarentee that every song will be decent, but if you continue to write the good ones will come. You know when you've got a hit. You can feel it. ANd when you play it on stage, it's electric.
\m/
Ry E)
www.RyEdwards.com
After the song is finished I send a link to my friends including my producer friends and professional musicians. I'm interested in hearing back about any possible "sore thumbs". I want to fix anything bad that sticks out that I'm not aware of. It's an effort to avoid future embarrassment.
When getting critiqued it's very important that I know something about the person giving the critique. I need to get a frame of reference-- which artists they do or don't like-- which genres they do or don't listen to. Otherwise I don't know how much weight to assign to their critique.
Hey Derek, What I usually do is, I write the song, Then don"t listen to it for a few days. I usually go back and change sentences or just words or a word, then after I feel it is right I let my band members hear it. I have a few people that I trust there opinions and if they say it sucks. I put it on the back burner and start with something new. Tommy B
Derek,
It usually takes me a couple of years to write a new albums worth of songs. When I get a great idea, I'll usually demo it, & play it for my friends who are also long time pro musicians & songwriters.
Also, I sometimes play it for my guitar students, & watch their face's to get an honest opinion.
Also, when I still can't get a song out of my head a year or 2 later, that is when I know it will be included on a new release. It has to be memorable, & stand the test of time to make the cut.
My best advise to fellow songwriters- Take your time, & don't release anything that doesn't turn out exactly the way you intended it. Anything you write will have your name on it, & you can't UN-release a song!
Music is always "To the ear of the beholder", so one person might absolutely love the structure and sound of one song, and dislike another song - while the next person could very well be the exact opposite. When reviewing artists songs, I try to be very unbias, mentioning their strong musical points - then offering my opinion on what might need improving.
I never judge a song by it's genre.
derek,stupendous idea,next round how do we create a song??melody rhythm harmony poetry technolgy create the universal symphony.visitmyspace/utube/kopterkojak m email kopterkojak@gmail.com kojak
This will sound weird to many of you, but I play songs for my cats. If they stay in the room and listen, ears forward, I keep it. If they leave or sit with ears folded back, I ditch it or fix it. The cats so far have been the best judges of what works for me. It seems to work for covering other people's tunes as well.
I equate writing a song with painting a picture (and I love painting murals). You keep developing until you know that if you add any more...it will detract. You just develp a feeling for the way in which a song should stand. In many cases it's also connected with what you want to say...and once you've said what you've wanted to say...then you're finished. So I feel these things...and I also know in life that you never please all people all of the time...so now I don't try. I am confident...write my song...feel that its finished...test it vocally myself...and if I am happy that it works and if nothing is niggling at me...then its produced and that is it. The feedback will be...in who will buy it...and many will and that's good....and I just accept that it wouldn't matter what you wrote for some people or how good it was...they still wouldn't accept it. So - I gain satisfaction in knowing I've finished what I aimed to achieve...and if people like it...GREAT...and if they don't....well there are a lot of artists out there...for them to select from so it doesn't bother me. When I was learning to write though....I used to sing a new song to a friend each day...and get feedback from that friend who listens to the radio for most of the day. I found that helpful then...but now it's a case...of accept what I write...because if you don't like it...well go somewhere else to shop and I'll even help you on your way by escourting you to the door. You have to have confidence and conviction when you create, write anything...and I do...I have that...and I know that can stand up with the best and be counted. I want my stuff to have its own stamp on it...my stamp...and so feedback from others is immaterial. Yes of course it will be this...and it will be that...too bad...accept it...like it...or go away and write your own song. That's my attitude. I just try my best to write what I feel. I know when I am finished and no more is needed.
For the most part, I'm not sure if great songwriting can be taught . . either you've got a poet's soul or you don't.
Form and style can be learned, but IF you have the innate artistry necessary,the only way to develop it is to write, write, and write some more. Eventually, your intuition tells you when you're on the right track.
In the early years, I turned out a song almost every day or two for almost a decade . . when I took stock of my output every six months or so, I'd weed out the dross (usually about 50% of everything I wrote). After several years, my quality got better to where it is now: 80% pretty good, 15% self-indulgent crap, and 5% . . that's when it works out terrific and I can't explain why (experience, I guess).
But,like they say,if you can write just one song like a "Yesterday" you've got it made.
If you can find someone to collaborate with, that's great . . I've never found that person (even working with some of the best songwriters I've ever known, I've noticed it usually doesn't work because our styles clash).
One 'tip' that works for me: I rarely revisit a song . . that is, I try to finish it in one go, whilst the inspiration is roaring.
I simply don't leave the table until the song is complete . . and that staying 'in the zone' is how I've written 99% of more than a thousand songs. I discovered early that, upon trying to return to a song days or weeks later, I could never recover the initial intuitive 'chain reaction' that led to my best songs.
Whether a song takes 20 minutes or 5 hours to write,the experience is always the same . . when I'm in the writing frame of mind, there's no strain or labour, it just pours out onto the page.
Once you have your basic theme or hookline, just flow with it . . no pretensions or forcing it . if it's in you, it will simply appear.
I see how the audience reacts. If they like it, great. If they don't, I try it again maybe, in front of a different kind of audience. If it still doesn't get much of a reaction I probably wouldn't keep performing it (or record it). If it does well, I'd keep playing it and probably record it. I don't think professional critics are very accurate; they're notorious for giving horrible comments about songs that (in reality) have already won Grammys, etc. Plus -- how do you "evaluate" a song? Unless you see how it works in front of a live audience -- I don't see what other standard you can judge it by, really. It either moves people or it doesn't. The rest is just, well, posturing. IMHO
First it gets turned into a fruity loops file so that parts can be soloed and compared to each other.
Second the rest of the band has a look-see.
Close friends comment.
We take it live and the friends that have already heard the music judge crowd reaction.
Finally, we ask opinions of the crowd after the gig.
We look for criticism but most people have no idea what they are talking about. You can change something completely unrelated to their critique and they suddenly love the song because the bit they 'hated' is now 'in context'. So you have to be smart about what you take on board or you'll end up with the most generic P.O.S. possible.
I have written more than 100 songs. Only 15 have been published. All 15 are related to my book, "Fine Tunes"
The first tune was "Midnight On Port Melbourne Pier". Inspiration for this song is in my bio. See reference to "Castel Felice". I went ahead with all the songs for the book and released them on CD. I later published the book. I like all the songs myself but consulted nobody more experienced than I. So I guess this is why they are not as successful as I hoped. Perhaps they need reworking or scrapping. Their style is not popular with the music experts of today either.
People who read the book like them and their relevance to my story.
I never went to Berklee, Julliard or any slide rule music school, so I am a musical ignoramus.
However Derek, thank you for your patience with me.
MTMM
I was raised on classical music, and was trained to think like a classical music composer. Even though I do a real hodge-podge of Rock, Classical, and Electronica, I don't really have anyone to bounce my unfinished ideas off of. It's just not been something that was suggested to me in my training. It might help me to find a few folks locally that could get together and do that sort of thing, but I'm not sure if the results would be any different. Of course, if I was too blind to know when one of my ideas totally sucked, then my inability to be self-critical would probably drive me to audition for American Idol, or something as lame. I probably have over 1000 unfinished songs, and only about 50 finished songs or instrumental pieces. Somewhere along the way, the unfinished songs began to bore me during the process. It could be a weakness in my approach to the craft...who knows, eh?
When a song is pretty much finished and has a serviceable arrangement, I might play it for a friend or gathering of fiends at a supper party. Or I might try it on with my bass player, or I might try it with my drummer. I work solo and with a wonderful trio--bass & drums--and if we happen to have a rehearsal I might try out the new song. I can't tell where a song is at until its been performed. I'm happy when someone says its great, but that's not the point. For me "feedback" is between me and the song: I need to perform it to see it, as if the song were a photograph and the performance the print. I have to perform it in front of "others" to see if it works. What anyone thinks is secondary to my process. That being said, when I play a new song for/with my musical peers, as opposed to my non-musician friends, I remain open to technical suggestions such as, hey, what if you add the ninth to that change or repeat that line in the refrain. Sometimes someone has an idea appropriate to the song. The final test drive is when I play the song in front of an audience. Regardless of what they think, in that setting at that stage of composition I can see if the song works energetically. If it has leaks I fix them and if the wheels really fall off it might go to the dump. Some parts might get recyled. Putting a song into production in the studio or working it up with the trio for performance once it's finished is an entirely different matter. At that point it's on its own and has to defend itself or submit to expanded ideas of instumentation and arrangement that are part of a collaborative process.
Hey Derek,
Cool thread!
When I think I am on to something I refine it fairly well over the course of a month or so coming back to it with fresh ears. Then I take it to an NSAI meeting and/or the song circle I run in Nyack, NY for critical feedback. I also do test drives at open mics in between to see how I remember it.
The main thing is I let it bake a bit and then cool on the windowsill before serving..
I'm always "learning as I go" as I write songs. I used to bounce them off as many peole as I could. I learned that every opinion will be different. No matter what you intend or mean to put into a song, the listener will get something else out of it or see something entirely different than what you wanted to convey. If you try to follow what everyone is telling you you'd never finish anything.
I still bounce them all off my girlfriend though. She's so hard to please that if she likes it it has to be good. She doesn't like the style of music I tend to write in but still she's a great source of insight into what's working and what's not. I'll aske her if she can hear the vocals, is the guitar too loud, how are the drums, anything that's basically critical. She'll always get thru those questions and then go on to things like, what does this line mean. She really takes my work apart.
My life has been the source of all my inspiration. My triumphs and tragedies, dreams and nightmares, all coalesce into these tunes that I've ended up injecting hazardous amounts of emotion into.
I think the artist should always do what makes them happy. That way what people are getting is that artists "truth". The mainstream is just a bunch of copycat ********!
I'd sound just like britiney if I sang thru the same pre-amp,mic and compressor she uses. I truly believe that the current wave of DIY artist bring an endless array of new techniques to the songwriting process. We now have thge tools at home to mold our creations in progress into what we truly want them to be. No fat cat sucking on a cigar can ever tell us what to do. If we fail, then at least we fail only ourselves. The guy with the cigar has lost nothing. He can keep financing million dollar projects. We'll keep tweaking our low budget gem-work and be much happier in the long run for our accomplishments. That's just my take on the songwriting process.
Hey Derek,
Can't help on this one because I don't really care what other people think. I just do it for myself.
I tedn to work on my songs a lot before I play them for anyone else. My biggest help is my partner, Jay Elfenbein, who is also a composer. The only feedback he tends to give is where he thinks I'm not challenging myself enough with melody or changes, where some line sounds as if it's been done a thousand times. Then I'll go back to the drawing board and see if I can develop the line further. [I write jazz tunes, mostly.] In terms of words, I was a writer and poet before I wrote songs, so my words are pretty finely tuned, but if a few people think a phrase is awkward or a word could be imnproved, I'm open to listening. By now I listen to my gut about anything like that, and except for with Jay, my songs are fine-tuned before I play them for others.
When it comes to my music, I write it for me! Noone else has to like it. I write my experiences and the way I feel about them. If someone else likes it, good. If not, oh well.
I think you will find that even the superstars write songs that people don't like. Be true to yourself and it won't matter!
john
I really don't place any value on what others think of my songs-I know in my heart when a song works and when it doesn't. Maybe that's a stance that won't benefit me much in my journey towards writing the perfect tune, but I write to express myself, not for technical perfection (though I do know how to structure a song, etc.) I don't ask for anyone's opinion. The best way I can gauge what others think, if I choose to, which is next to never, is that if they're silent, I take that to mean that it doesn't work for them, and if it does, they come forth with good stuff. I have been to a couple of songwriting panels and have had my songs critiqued (some positive and negative feedback), and just found that it's not a necessary thing for me to do-I didn't derive any benefit from it. So I just keep writing and recording and ditching the lame ones and feeling pride in the strong ones. Now, for the big guys to hear them, right?
Keep those songs coming, fellow tunesmiths!
Well excuse the snobby reply, but personally if you need feedback on a song you're writing, you shouldn't be writing songs. If you're confident enough in your song writing ability you don't need other's opinions. That's the way I see it.
I put my songs on different sites like broadjam and ourstage where I can get feedback from other writers and listeners. I have a few people that I use but I found that when I asked people I knew what they thought about a particular song, I get a lot of general feedback. This is not helpful but I've learned how to interpret these reactions.
Thank god I'm at a point in my career where I don't really seek out, or care to know about how my songs sound to other people as long as I like them. I mean you hear so many people telling you how your music is awful and you have to be so great to be successful, then you turn on the radio and hear some of the most asinine garbage ever created in our short time on this planet! Kanye West , Beyonce, indeed! that shit sounds like the poems they give the 3rd graders to read in church on easter sunday! So how can I take the criticism of someone who considers that drivel to be "good music" seriously? My advice to all young artist, who seek out the validation of critics, demo reviews, and feed back, whenever they tell you you suck, turn on a top 40 station, it's the fame they hear, not the music. Keep playing. Keep growing.
For me, feedback is a complex and fragile thing. Once I've shared a piece I'm working on, it's no longer mine-- and there's usually some feeling of sadness when I let it out of the box! The first person I play a song for, is Joe, my husband. If he's not moved in some way, I know I need to work more....poor Joe--- such pressure!
I play it or send it to a few friends who's opinion I really value - which means I really like THEIR music a lot. Like Miten (Deva Premal & Miten) or Kit Walker, and a few others. Then I listen to their comments and change some things, because I know the clarity of the lyrics and flow of the music will improve.
One of the things I do is that I let non-musicians listen to it, and get feedback from a non-musician's stand point.
This is sometimes useful because they will listen to music differently from musicians most of the time.
Musicians tend to give you feedback like "Man, listen to that E7#9 chord over that groovin bass riff! That kicks ass!" for example.
Sometimes, a non-musician will just say, "Dude, your vocal SUCKS!"
You'll get half a dozen of the same comments and next thing you know, you start to realize that they have a point, and start taking vocal lessons.
This approach is not for everybody. But if you are in a position where you've been playing or recording for years and kind of getting there but are not quite making it, I think that asking for feedback from non musicians can help.
Usually, by the time someone hears a new song, it's done, or close to being done. I may email it to a couple of close songwriter friends. I also belong to SongRamp and StudioTrax.net which are good places to solicit comments. A good paid service is TAXI, of which I also belong and have gotten helpful critiques in the past, one of which lead to a music library deal! Of course, you'll get so many varied comments, that you'll have to decide which to take with a grain of salt, and which to take into consideration... Overall, it's your music--do what you want to if your heart says it's "right" and keep growing!
I'll usually bring it up at a band rehearsal and let my bandmates hear it, then I'll let friends hear it. Naturally I'll ask for honest opinions, though there are some folks who are so jaded and burnt, that absolutely nothing will move them...
I find that those songwriter forums are useful, too. Occasionally I'll be daring and actually start playing a new song out in public with the band-- we'll always get inquiries about the song from members of the audience. I think that's the most honest barometer.
Oh, and by the way--I always let my band members do their own original songs on our shows.
Wow! Very interesting.....
. I read most of the responses and I have to say it was an eye opener to read how many people not only don't want their creations critiqued but actually loathe people who offer the service for any financial gain. At the risk of sounding defensive I will say this.... I pride myself on doing critiques that focus on what the song at hand is trying to be, with great respect given to the genre. I don't critique for commerciality and ALWAYS preface the exchange with my notion that what I give people is only my opinion and should be viewed as "food for thought." If what I say doesn't make sense to the writer, I certainly don't want them doing it just because I think it would make the song better. I always say, "It's your song, not mine." That said, I pour my heart and soul into every critique I do being honest and nurturing at the same time. I never try to trash anyone because I don't want to squash anyones creativity. I feel like creating art is one of the most beautiful, precious endeavors there is. I LOVE writing songs.
I feel that one of the most valuable services I can provide for writers who are open to having their material reviewed is my ability to spot things I think they've done really well. Pointing out a brilliant moment in a song can be invaluable to the songwriter who might not even realize how good it is or more importantly might not know exactly what they did. It's alot easier to do it again if you take a moment to analyze things. As a teacher I always stress to writers that the ability to self - critique is an essential part of being a songwriter. I do believe that I can save writers some time in achieving this. I have written over 1200 songs and each one of them has taught me something. Writing is any writers best teacher.
I respect a songwriters right to write songs that are ONLY meant to please themselves but I must say that I come from a different place. When I finish a song the 1st thing I want to do is play it for someone. Given that, I have a responsibility to them to affect them in some way. A great song is one that makes people think, laugh, cry, wanna dance, reflect on their lives etc. The listener must feel something. In a literal story song we as writers owe it to the listener to make it relatively easy to follow the story. In a more abstract piece, I still feel like the listener should FEEL something when they listen to the song.
Personally I value feedback on my songs. My wife is a good editor and I also lean on several friends whose songwriting impresses me to the point that I know they can shed some light on moments in my songs that could be better. I also rely heavily on audiences for their organic reaction. They bring no baggage to the table. I have had much success as a writer in the music business but to this day I don't put much value in their opinions because they come to the table with lots of baggage. They are saddled with their goal of finding commercially viable material within the limited genre they work in.
I do agree that a writer should get a tingling toes/shivers up the spine kinda feeling when the song is done. When I play you a song, I love every word and every note. If I didn't, I'd still be working on it. That doesn't mean that I won't change something if someone has an opinion about a specific part that makes sense to me. Please...... point out something I missed. That's all I'm trying to do when I critique songs.
Thanks for asking Derek
That seems to be a good question to consider. When I write songs for my daily worship, I don't seek feedback. But when I have written songs to send to music companies for demo production or other purpose, I always ask my mother to listen for feedback. Then, after the CD is produced by the companies, I send the CD to a few mentors, i.e. my former college professor and former seminary professors for their musical and spiritual feedback. I also have my father listen to the CD after the companies produce it. Some feedback from the music companies has also been helpful even though it's inductive for me. Since last fall, I have also begun receiving feedback from an A&R company I have joined. The feedback I receive from these sources seem to give me the impressions of my music.
In my experience (I am a professional composer/guitarist/composer and I run my own label), have released over a dozen albums in the last 14 years, had my 1st NO 1 hit on radio when I was 20, lucky~!) I NEVER EVER seek approval of music until it is actually produced and printed. The entire package is important (the album cover, your photos etc etc), not only individual pieces (this applies to all 'genres'). I do not know of writers who send each chapter of a new book off to friends or whoever (except maybe their editor when it's finished) for any 'critique'. Same with painting and film (unless you want to come across as a total amateur, in which case no one in the 'business' will take you seriously anyway). The homogenisation of music is largely due to this 'I want to please everyone' idea. Remain true to yourself and your own ideas, go look back in history and you'll see the the best and most successful artists (probably your heros) of all disciplines have created like this, what the best musician or friend think of your music/art means nothing. Remember, Philip Glass drove a taxi until he was 40 and only started getting any fame until a decade later. Just one of 100s of examples, imagine what he would have done if his friends or radio DJs heard his music and he actually took their criticism to heart...
What I do ask other composers for advice is based on how to create a suitable environment for making good productive music, how to approach music and life in its entirety, I do this often and it has helped me a lot. But 'what do you think of my song?' is never going to get an honest reply. Friends will be kind and critics will come with pre-packaged opinions based around the genre you're in and will compare you to other musics in that field. If that is your goal then that's cool too, just be prepared for it. Good luck!
I never ask for feedback on my own personal songs. If I felt I needed feedback on one, then the answer is clear - its not ready yet and needs more work before I can show it to the world. Then again, if I am writing music in a specific style for a specific purpose, such as an advertisement - I often ask for feedback, as I'm trying to achieve a particular musical goal - I'm not trying to express myself, I am in essence trying to express "someone else". Meaning, the needs of the advertiser in that case. With my own music however, the goal (for me) is specifically my own personal *self-expression*. Therefore, the concept of "feedback" is, well... out of context!
sorry derek i'd have to say.. haha.. i've got 40 years experience in music and awards and degrees to go with it.. so i'd say to anyone what are your qualifications? why should your opinion mean anything to me? don't bother to state how many hits you've written for this or the other cause the commercial industry don't mean nada to me.. long have we been forced to listen to mediocrity as well as quality.. and you're right.. i know what my songs could use to be better.. a better singer than me.. a live drummer.. some guest solists from time to time.. better equpment in my studio.. etc.. but I like keeping it grass roots.. and i'm into trane and musical exploration.. you guys (not you specifically derek) can have the pop music BS scene and become greedy millionaires helping to exploit the planet with your luxurious rock star life styles.. i'll be the one dissing you for it.. check a few of my older songs on soundclick.. back in my angry rapper days.. ANGER is a good song.. lol.. and i agree with the above.. if my song needed more than i want in it then i wouldn't have posted it.. improvement? every song is an improvment.. another step taken on the long and winding road.. every day i hear same ole imitation songs and guitar solos.. I don't want to be another dave gillmore so don't tell me how to do it.. cheers..
I don't always seek out feedback, but it always comes. The thing for me is figuring out how to filter what's "opinion" and "taste", and what is constructive criticism. I have a circle of people (work partners, family, friends) that I trust to tell me what they really think, then I decipher what it all means TO ME, and then adjust if necessary. Sometimes the feedback is trash, sometimes it's treasure - my gut always lets me know.
I guess the bottom line is listen, and always trust yourself.
It is very nice when people hear your music and say I like that,and when you ask why sometimes the reason they like it is not what you expect.Your fantastic hook or riff hasn't registered it's the drum beat at the begining etc, and you think right OK.
At the same time if they don't like it it could be for the same reason's, but that's not the point, if you are writing for the money then that is going to influence how you write, if its because you have something to say or just like the idea that people can hear what you write like it or not,and that gives you buzz fine.Trying to create something different in music we all know is hard, but if we don't then music stagnates, so what I am saying is if nobody likes what you are doing it doesn't always mean that is rubbish it could be they are not just ready for it yet. Just say you could take music back in time and could play it, they would think the world had gone mad.They would not reconise it, so bear that in mind.
I write what I feel and don't worry about what other people think. I use to ask other people, but to many times worrying about other people just undermined my confidence.Its art to me.If your writing just to make money then I suppose getting feed back would make sense. I write for art and then hope it will make some money.
Holy crap and beat me with a spanner until the cows come home that is a lot of comments Derek my man!
What I normally do:
1. My sister at home hears the song first...well no one else around so she might as well ha ha!
2. Then we play the song at a gig and ask everyone what they thought.
3. At our last gig we played a new song and someone said the song had too many movements. So I'll play it live a few more times and ask if others think the same.
Some great posts in here by everyone, I'll try to read most of them man.
hi Derek thank you for inviting me to this forum of yours
on songwriting
what i do with songwriting,is most of the above on your list,only these days i dont send off to have my music critiqued,i just go with the flow of what i am doing,i usually find people generally like what i do,though when working on them i go from one to another very quickly,basically i do what i enjoy,if i enjoy playing it and singing it,it goes on my songs list.
Although a great start for songwriters is www.icompositions.com all songwriters/artists and fans comment regularly on each others work,and you quickly learn who knows what they are talking about,and who to take advice from.
Hope this helps someone.
Hi Derek; I belong to many music forums which is where I get some of My feed back, BUT!! The main place is at (acidplanet.com) I hope thats not a bad thing. my acid page is here.
http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?songs=260316&T=4143
I know that you do not get a totally honest feed back from friends which is why I place the song in multiple spots but normally at the planet I get an Idea of what people think of the way the song is moving. I have a few songs that have completely changed direction due to another artist giving a sample of where he would go with the track. I think that some songs require this collaboration to release the potential. So like you I used others that I felt were qualified to tell me what It needed.
I don't play live so this is a tricky one for me. I used to play it to family/partner first but they have too many preconceived ideas about me and what I should sound like, so I find their opinions too restrictive. It's good to have a co-writer/collaborator to bounce off, that's my main source of critique. I once gave the finished songs to a bunch of people asking for a rating, and used this to determine the track order. That was very helpful.
BTW I have changed songs quite frequently after receiving constructive feedback.
I have long believed that music simply is, and for me no song is ever finished (just like people) but shows itself anew depending on who's presenting it. The act of creating music on any level is a beautiful thing in and of itself. Whether a song is good or bad is purely subjective to the listener. For me, the only purpose for vetting a song through audiences or my peers would be my own self improvement in terms of writing music and performance on stage. My focus is on the violin as a voice in funk and Jazz. The violin is unfortunately an unforgiving instrument. Once a note is played it's out there and cannot be taken back (true for any instrument - I guess). That said, my process usually is to try to achieve the vibe I hear/feel in my head when writing a song. If I am able to recreate the feeling when I listen to it after it's recorded I know it's "there". After that it's refinement of the melody then off to find the 1 in 1000 people who will relate to what I've done.
I have a vocal coach who is also a songwriter, and I can always take a new song with me to her on a singing lesson and get feedback not only on my vocals but also on the song. Also, I take the opportunity to get feedback on songwriting workshops, and when I post something new on my website or MySpace I try to let my friends know.
Although the question is about getting feedback on the song being written and, superficially, should be easy to answer - it isn’t. Whether we write in isolation or with collaboration makes a difference. I write as a solitary process and therefore it’s a pretty much finished article before it’s offered up for display. There is never any feedback within the process of composing the song. It’s a fiercely beautiful process into which I want no feedback or intrusion.
I’ve averaged a couple of songs a year over the last few decades. As I’m limited in musical ability in respect to guitar - which is the instrument with which I write - I seldom start with a guitar riff or a chunky rhythm. It’s often a train of thought which may rattle about my brain for a few weeks before melody and chord structure reveal themselves. Just as easily, it may start with a chord pattern which won’t let go. This is how ‘So happy birthday’ got written - just G and C but in a specific pattern. The words tumbled out in an hour or less a couple of weeks later.
Prior to early 2008 I rarely performed in public and as I don’t have a wide circle of friends, the songs could just sit there for years which is almost as sad as having a party but forgetting to invite anyone.
I work in a Group Home where the clients are brutally honest in respect to my songs. This is wonderful and as they’re considered non verbal their opinion is pithy and restricted to ‘crap’ or enthusiastic nodding and ‘yes - good’. I’m happy with that but don’t despair if I get the ‘crap’ comment. If I get the ‘good’ comment then I know I’m on the right track.
Family are not generally useful to me as musical taste is so personal. They don’t say anything - almost becoming non-verbal in the process, unless there’s a particular song which really moves them. Then it’s almost as if they’re relieved to be able to say ‘Ooh - I liked that one.’
My child - now grown - and her friends are very useful. They’re honest, of another generation and aren’t blinkered by any trace of sibling rivalry. I get the best feedback when I’m asked for the words and chord structure because they want to sing it themselves. This is the highest of accolades as far as I’m concerned.
Now that I play each week, albeit generally three songs at a time within songwriter nights, the feedback is almost instantaneous. I do scratch my head a bit because I don’t really know if it’s my delivery of the song or the song itself. This raises the question - is it the singer or the song? Big issue for me as I’ve never desired the spotlight and have always maintained that ‘the song’s the thing.’ If that’s true then all I need do is get them ‘out there’ in a presentable form and let other artists interpret them as they see fit.
As a last note, I’ve been going through the songs I’ve already recorded but don’t play so much in order to build a few songlists for an hour’s gig and found that what I’m looking for is the songs which still have emotional truth for me. Not necessarily deep and meaningful - excitement and energy will do. In that sense I give myself feedback. If it can move me it passes the test
I've never really been interested in someone else's opinion or suggestion about how they could improve upon my songwriting.
I've listened to so many great songwriters over the years and used them as a measuring stick that it instilled a sense of confidence in me early on.
When the time comes to write it's an internal feeling that speaks very clearly to me to act upon. Sometimes the time it takes to finish a song may vary but when I come to that conclusion it's final and not open to debate.
I also arrange my own material so I tend to keep it close to the source until the actual recording takes place.
The only outside opinion that I might solicit and consider are from those musicians playing on the recording and by the engineers involved. Both bring valuable work experience to the project that I can't bring and that can greatly improve upon the arrangement and production of a song.
I'll post a song for exposure and feedback is interesting to a point but I usually have an attitude of either you get it, like it, or don't.
I very rarely go back and change anything involving the structure of a song and I don't solicit outside opinions about it.
I've always felt comfortable about my song writing weather anyone knew me or heard of me. If a song passes my own personal standard for songwriting then that's good enough for me and I'll be glad to let the chips fall where they may.
This probably all sounds self - absorbed and conceited but it couldn't be further from the truth. I like feeling good about what it is that I'm attempting to accomplish when I write and it's because I'm my own worst critic.
If it doesn't cut the mustard with me then I won't bullshit myself and I'll reject it.
Public opinion about my work has absolutely no bearing on influencing my songwriting.
Of course I like the idea of being accepted and listened to by both the public and my peers but it's LIFE and other artists SONGS that influence my songwriting. Hopefully, that makes it interesting enough for people to listen and enjoy.
I like a song to have a personal, singular vision to it or at least give the impression of that. Some songwriting teams like Lennon & McCartney, Jagger & Richards, Frey & Henley, Goffin & King, Becker & Fagan, Mann & Weil, Leiber & Stoller all were fantastic at conveying that personal vision to a song as if it were the private thoughts of one single person.
I strive for that as well but I prefer to
go it alone.
Good luck out there!
I want to capture a feeling. When it seems to me that I have I'm done. A song has to make me feel something otherwise it's nothing. If it does I assume at least some others will feel something too. That's what I'm after.
We are always our own "first critique".....ain't that the truth. Have not played much outside the studio for the last 11 years. But I find the best critique is from our closest friends and maybe our Indie Record Store online.
If it's something I expect my wife to like, I'll ask her as I write. Then ignore it and carry on! (Kidding!) If she doesn't then I might change something.
Then I demo the song on my PC and send it to my bandmates to see what they think. They'll be looking to mould and morph it within the band, so if they don't like an aspect then it's something we can work on.
I'll also put the demo on my MySpace and invite comments. If it's liked, people will comment. If not, they tend not to, which is a great high-level indicator.
Of course, if no-one likes it, then it means I've gone wrong somewhere and I can see and ask what that is. If everyone loves every note, it means I could finally have that hit I've been looking for! :D
Don't ever write a song! It will follow you for the rest of your life and then some. If you must however, then here's a few tips:
1. A song is never finished. Keep playing around with it until it stops all by itself. If you then like singing, saying,or playing that, it's done (for now).
2. Next, memorise it and play it by heart.
3. Next, record it rough and then listen to it a couple of days later. If it's still good, think of which public might like it and work out your arrangement.
4. Don't play the song in public until you've done No's.1, 2 & 3 above.
5. Never ever ask anyone's opinion of a song unless you're writing and developing the thing together.
6. Next, perform it. Bury it somewhere in the middle of your set, or go out and play it in the streets, or the Metro. See how it feels to deliver and what key is best, etc.
7. Finally, cut back every line, riff, or surplus word that's not essential. Also try cutting out every second line to inject some air and mystery into the lyric.
8. The lyric is the off beat. Now that you have your basic song structure, remember that the phrasing of the words is part of the rythm track. Work it out to fit elegantly.
9. Keep re-working your song until you really enjoy playing it.
10. Keep it current and dynamic for yourself. My oldest song re-work is 28 years.
11. My final test is to take a new CD of recorded material into a few bars (where I gig and I am known)and give it to the boss to play over the house PA. If I don't sweat, I'm satisfied. If they play it next time I come in, I'm happy.
Wow! I never realised I did all that?
Cheers Derek.
As a song writer I write a song with a live audience in mind,so once I put together a song the way I think it will work and submit it to the band,then let them add to or change their parts for the good of the song,we take the final arrangement to the stage to gage the response.During the time we are playing we look to the regular Fans and the people we think are not familiar with our music,we will even go out and ask a regular what the reaction was.If it seems to have gotten the people to move and be excited maybe we know it's a keeper for the cd to come. Average listners not musician/songwriters seem to be the best gage(no offense)and are the opinions I value the most.They consume music for different reasons than the average musician would in my opinion.
Oscar Mancino and I cut a demo and pass it to primary school children. The best and most uncorrupted-by-knowledge responses.
Purely for their reaction.
If it is your song you presumably record it when it is done and dusted as far as you are concerned.
Take a leaf out of the painters' book: never, ever show your work until you consider it finished.
It is your art form. It has your stamp on it. That's what you do. It is inside-out not inside-outside-in-and-out-in-and-out: where would you draw the line?
Personaly i never play new songs for friends beacuse i,m firstly after structural feedback and the listener feedback from muscians and listeners.
I use several sites where i give rewievs and get rewiews,these are mainly from other artists in the genre.Out of that i dissicate the things that gives me a point.i don,t care about comments..it sucks..and after a sufficient volume of rewievs i adjust the song and only to have it so complete as possible before putting it on a cd.I sometimes post half finished songs just to use some early guidelines even if it means that i get very hard criticism.but better that than..yes it,s good,,.and nothing else
beside that i post the songs on chart sites and streaming sites for everyday listeners.and the amount of streams and chart position gives me a hint if it is attractive to the listeners..they do not care about song build and mixes and stuff..here it comes down to the simple fact if the song creates a reaction good or bad...if good it is an angle that it might be of value commercial.
the third thing i use is a track testing..which gives a total overwiev of the song potential in all aspects..and with all this it either goes to the trash or a launch it.
does that means it is sucessfull..no..just that i,m pleased with the work..beyound this it comes down to marketing and promotion which is limited space for an indpendent artist without founds.
cheers
twaang
I play in a progressive rock band and we rarely write the typical 3 or 4 minute radio format songs. Not that we don't like that kind of music, we just write until the song is done. For us that ranges anywhere from 4 minutes to over 30 minutes and everywhere in between. The only feedback I ever get is from other band members. I'm one of the main writers and have been for the last ten years. I just trust the opinions of my fellow band members. If we all like it, great. If other people happen to like it, great. Writing has always been a selfish thing for me. I write music that I like, music that moves me. If it does the same for others, that is just a bonus.
I have always been the main lyricist in the band. I'm fortunate that my wife got her degree in english studies. I have always had her critique my lyrics and she has always given great advice for tweaks here and there. She is really the only one that will critique anything involving a song besides members of the band.
We once played at a big event at the Hard Rock Cafe where several record label reps. were there and your band would play and they would critique your playing and your songs. One of the "experts" said we should maybe get some playing lessons. We laughed our asses off. I have a degree in music and am a guitar teacher. Our drummer is a drum teacher who stuidied drums for years at a performing arts school, our keyboard player taught piano lessons, our singer held a degree in music dance theater, and our bass player was a bass teacher who played 12 different instruments well. Just because we played technical, complex music the "expert" didn't get it. It went right over his head. That will likely be the last time I look for advice.
I think as a songwriter you reach a point where you stop writing songs to please yourself and start getting serious about it and think more of the audience reaction, and that's when the songs start getting good. What feedback you look for depends on what you're trying to do with the songs. I think it's always a good idea to fine tune your songs all the time - sometimes the third or fourth draft is a huge improvement over the first even if the difference is only a chord or a word here and there. As a few people said, if you listen to your friends they might just tell you it's great, but find someone who you trust enough to tell you when something isn't right.
I've relied on family members that I know enjoy a broad spectrum of musical styles and have large record collections. I've sought feedback from industry professionals and managed to get songs on the radio that way. My children are also on the panel of critics. Mostly I continue to develop a song if it feels good to me, my songs all have significant meaning to me. If I feel the meaning does not come across then I will ditch it and move on. I think I'm a better songwriter now than I was say 3 years ago - hopefully anyway. Still striving to write that all time timeless classic though.
Not in any particular order:
1) Husband
2) Daughters
3) Friends
4) "Friends" on MySpace
5) Audiences / fans
6) Co-performers
7) Other musicians & artists
8) Me, myself & I
I'm a word guy first. If they lyrics don't nail it alone, I don't bother with music. So, I always send out new lyrics to my mailing list. The ones that resonate the most get my attention and time. Add some notes,record and perform with a good sense that it will fly
Shanti and I are a duo, a pair of songwriters, so we bounce ideas off of each other, and inspire each one another. Shanti has been writing music for about 5 years and has a fresh approach to making music. I have over two decades of experience so we are able to bring those two very different places to the table. We also listen to many different types of music and keep an open mind about everything,and are very self-critical.
~Buck Curran
I use the traditional route: family, friends, other song writers and musicians. I am overly critical myself and want feedback on whether they like it, and more important, what resonates with them. I take that feedback and try to improve the song which usually finds its way into my live act where I can get more realistic feedback.
I always like to get feedback from 5 sources:
1. Musicians who know and like my stuff (which is usually the people in my band at the time). This is great in terms of "do we really want to play this in front of people?" sorta feedback.
2. Musicians I know who don't know my stuff, and aren't that into my genre. This is good for feedback that's more details driven: words, notes, structure, etc.
3. A fan who loves (just about) everything I write. Now, you might think this is so I will gain acceptance, but that's not really it. I have a few people that just love what I do. They are going to like a song, just about no matter what. But the great feedback I get from them is where they think the new song falls in comparison to other songs I've written. So I'll hear things like, "yeah, I really think this is a better rocker than that other song you guys are playing now", etc. This lets me put in perspective where the song falls within my own catalog.
4. As many people have said: Play it live. If you play it in front of a crowd that doesn't know you, and they respond, it's probably good.
5. Music Business people. In the end, I go to film and tv people I know, and play them the song to see if it's a fit for them to pitch for projects. Usually this is just a "yes or no" feedback.
I only write instrumentals, and really, I do not worry about it, if someone likes it great, if not that is also great, I do not expect that everyone will like it.
That is life, not everyone who hears your stuff will like it, but, I am not sure if that would make it bad, or good.
How many songs have you listened to with other people, and what was the reaction? Did everyone like it?
Probably not.
Wow! 692, Now, 693 responses to the (one) question! What a waste of time?Maybe just taking a break from songwriting and need another computer break?
Songwriter's nights are a joke and are just an outlet to have your ideas ripped off in Nashville.
Derek,
to answer your question, I have a team that I work with as an independent artist. In NYC, quite often, listening parties work. You see, I come at it with a unique perspective. That of composer/songwriter. I write soul/jazz/latin music. However when it comes to my songwriting side, I believe that we need to write songs the FANS can actually identify with. I know my demographic and assemble focus groups with the majority being from my demographic and with a sprinkling from outside(to see if I could in fact pull new audiences!)
As a composer, it is not the same so I will comment on that another time.
Heshima
Souljourn Music
"Inhale Music< Exhale Life"
Hi derek
Creativity happens when we are not thinking.Great songs are written through us not by us.Be positive and god will give you the wisdom of words.
GOD bless you derek, I depend on the holy spirit of GOD to lead me, guide me, and direct me on what he want's me to write. Because I want GOD'S will to be done,not my own will. He has called me to write and sing not to glorify myself but to glorify his holy name. So if anyone has a problem with my writing and music, then speak to the almighty GOD about it. I am being obedient to his commands,and what I write and sing is for blessing and edification, to GOD be the glory now and forever amen!
In the past, I have asked people on songwriting forums for feedback but I soon realised that you get really contradicting feedback and basically, other people try to push their own idea of how a song should be onto you.
So now, I just trust my own feedback.
I leave the song aside for a few weeks, then when I get back to it, I listen out for everything that doesn't work in it. I make a few edits. I then repeat the process until either I feel everything works (and I record it), or I feel that no matter what I do, it doesn't work (in this case, I give up on the song).
I have now been trying this approach for more than a year and my most successful songs are the ones I have critiqued myself.
At the end of the day, a song is my way to communicate with the world and so, I don't want to iron out my personality quirks or to dilute my message. As I evolve as a person, my songwriting changes too but it has to come from me, not from an outside source.
I am just this moment approaching this from a different stand point. Normally we have a few people we trust to use as a sounding board, musicians, engineers, radio people etc... I am going to open it up to my friendster network and see how we get on.
Keep her lit
Marty & Ruairi
Its NOT a Problem
As a music supervisor as well as a producer/composer/songwriter, I have to say that the emphasis on having everyone "like" your song seems to be one of the main causes of the mediocrity so prevalent in the music industry today. In the not so distant past, the market had to run to keep up with innovating and challenging artists. The more we aspire to populist approval the less interesting the music becomes on a creative level. Certainly skills can be honed etc. but without an inspiration of authentic creativity, we will continue to see what we currently have in the music industry, which is more of the same. A large topic to be sure, but one certainly worth more consideration.
Do you play it for a few friends, looking for praise?
Usually I would perform my concepts at open mic events for hip hop.
Do you play it for a few friends, looking for criticism? (Really asking, “What don’t you like about it?”)
Yes
Do you upload it to your site, and email everyone you know, asking what they think?
Yes, to get more customers to my site to buy my music.
Do you send it to a company for paid critique?
No
Do you have a songwriting teacher or mentor?
I had one when I was working on a project that I am recently looking for management and distribution.
When you get feedback, are you looking to change and improve your song?
Yes, to give a feel that can be listened to people that are older than me.
Or by the time someone hears it, is it pretty much done?
Yes, but I could still changed it if I haven't recorded it yet.
Well, to give a to-the-minute example: about a year ago I wrote some lyrics I really liked and a melody I was somewhat less happy with. After playing it for my husband and a fellow songwriter I started including it in my setlist. It got a good reaction and was mentioned favourably in a gig review in a respectable music mag, but I still wasn't entirely happy. Stayed with another fellow songwriter while on tour, played it for him and asked for suggestions. He suggested various changes, none particularly major, but I still wasn't happy and stopped including it on the set. Had a five hour drive to a gig a little over two weeks ago during which I thought of a completely different rhythm and melody for the lyrics, necessitating changes to the lyrics of one section to accommodate the new rhythmic structure. Performed it a cappella that night and got a great reaction but the next day decided it would work better with accompaniment. Worked out an accompaniment, did 8 gigs with that version but felt all the while that it would be even stronger with a contrasting instrumental intro. Finally had a chance to write said intro yesterday afternoon, played it for the promoter and asked her if she thought I should repeat the intro at the end as an outro. She said yes. Did the full version at last night's gig, was very happy, may make further changes to accompaniment but the song itself will probably stay as is ... until July, when I go in to record a new album. It's being produced by the same producer i've worked with on the previous two albums, and thus far he's suggested changes to every song I've written. He's always been right, so I have no doubt that when we go into the studio he'll suggest changes to this song as well, and I'll take his advice as I always do. At which point it will have taken 18 months for the song to reach its final form. I have no idea whether this is information that anyone out there wants or needs --hope it's helpful to someone, anyway!
I am working on a new record with my band and posted my in-progress, remixed album tracks for feedback on our blog. My thought is that we could both engage our fans, provide some value to them in the form of mp3s for our soon-to-be-released tracks, and get some feedback on how to better mix the songs.
The response so far has been underwhelming, as I am not sure that the average Joe understands the re-mixing process enough to provide us valuable feedback.
Here's the link to one of the blog posts asking for feedback: http://www.cryns.com/2009/02/19/help-me-mix-my-new-record-feedback-needed/
D,
I belong to the Nashville
Songwriters Association International (NSAI). They have a great songwriter feedback program. First, you can play the song at a local chapter meeting and get feedback from other unpublished writers, and pro writers - or industry folk who show up to the meeting. Secondly, you can submit one song per month for feedback from a pro writer. The feedback comes honestly, subjectively, and quickly. I have applied some of the suggestions to a song and found a pearl I overlooked in the beginning. It changed my title and my hook line. Basically, it allowed me to become a better critic of my music through the eyes of an industry professional. I must say, it is free to use for active members.
Gerard James
Regarding songwriting feedback, I only trust my family and a few specific friends for that. I definitely tailor my live show to feedback from fans, but fans and critics are generally not part of my vetting process for songwriting.
That said, a songwriting workshop or something of that nature sounds like something I would utilize for songwriting.
Looking back on 30+ years of songwriting...I have to admit that I've done all the things you mentioned. Anymore though I don't really care if anyone likes the songs I write. I do pay more attention to detail and try my best to fix lyrics that don't come off right the first time. I also try to make the lyric easier to identify...so it doesn't come off as some vague stream of consciences blunder. As for writing for the Willys, well it's not much different...we don't spend time critiqueing lyrics but we are spending more time fixing little things.
Since I'm not a paid songwriter (and noone has shown any interest in helping me earn money writing songs...)I will continue as I do...following the muse...If someone likes it and is willing to pay me more than $10.00 a disc...I might start paying more attention. Otherwise, I'm there to be "discovered" of lost to the ages. Besides, I don't write groundbreaking new music...I just like to sing and rewrite in the tradition of rock and rolls first generation.
With me, song writing is a torrent of 'stuff' that flows from somewhere I do not fully understand. I credit it to God and my dead relatives watching over me... long story.
So when I leave the studio on the day I write a song, it is a one day affair for me, it is pretty much finished but for final mix and sweetening. I play it for my wife and son, to get their immediate reaction. Good or bad, I rarely go back to the drawing board. I trust my afore mentioned 'mentors' who sent me my inspiration so I usually look to some element of the mix as to why a reaction is not what I expected or hoped for. The basic song never really changes but for a rhyme tweak maybe.
A radio guy once told me when I asked him how folks liked my songs. He said, "When they DON'T call, thats a good sign." Thats true I find. Folks will throw tomatoes if you suck, but pretty much go about their business quietly humming your song and you might miss that.
My advice, if you find yourself ducking tomatoes, maybe you should tweak things a little until that stops. If your song touches their hearts, watch for that tell tale eye rub, then bask in the knowledge that you have been allowed into their hearts, and remeber, thats a privilege few get in life. Act accordingly.
I usually record a quick 'n' dirty version and send it to a few friends on the Internet as an MP3, then they critique it. Works relatively well, and usually confirmed my own thoughts too.
Hey Derek, from my point of view it depends on what one is trying to do with the music. If it's marketing the music then think like Berry Gordy and subject it to a panel to critique. if you do it because it's art then be smart and let it flow Joe. I take the approach of Miles Davis. I believe he stated that in jazz "There are no WRONG notes".
I finish a song, record at the studio, and do my best to get it heard by others in the World via radio & internet radio in Europe some parts of Asia and in the USA. If the DJ's are playing it in large numbers that is pretty good evidence to me it is well liked! In the meantime I am doing my best to appear on a National TV show and or Clear Channel Radio. Take a listen for yourself at: www.myspace.com/FredLeonardMusic
www.FredLeonard.com
www.cdbaby.com/FredLeonard
www.cdbaby.com/FredLeonard2
Maggie (my wife) and I write songs individually then play them for each other to get an opinion. We are very critical about our own material, so by the time we play it for each other, we have a pretty good idea whether they're good, or not. Then we play them onstage. If our audience likes them, we know, because, after a couple of times of playing them, they begin to sing along and request them. But just because they may not be "crowd pleasers" doesn't mean that they aren't really good songs.
Critique may be valuable for some, but because music is subjective, it can be very destructive to creativity. If your song means something to you and you can convey that to anyone else, you're successful. You know when you've written something good, if you love music.
I know after I've played a song about my daughter and see tears in the eyes of a few listeners in the audience that the song works. The song is "Emma" from the CD, "The Back Twenty". Not the greatest recording, but this song works.
I have a few songwriter friends for whom I'll play a song. Usually though, if I feel confident enough to play the song for them, I'm confident about the song and am content with it.
It is wonderful to be clear about what you want to accomplish with a critique; if it is to write a "hit", then this is great. If it is to be meaningful to oneself, this is fine too-no critique required.
Steve Vasil
Quando scrivo una canzone non chiedo consigli nè se piace ad altri.Per me scrivere una canzone è riuscire a scrivere i silenzi dell'anima,captare i fantasmi che mi circondono,riuscire a tradurre i loro sospiri.In effetti io non scrivo la canzone sono i fantasmi dell'infinito che la scrivono.Io sono solo la loro penna.In effetti per me scrivere una canzone è entrare in trans....farmi rapire da un mondo invisibile e vivo che canta e suona l'armonia dell'infinito.
If it moves me in some way then that's good enough for me. Sometimes it's the melody, sometimes the lyrics. Songwriting/Music is such a deeply personal journey that I really don't care what others think. I do hope that it has some value to listeners but I can't write for listeners. I have to write for me.
I prefer to complete a song and then get feedback.
Solo gli insicuri chiedono se la canzone piace ad altri.Magari all'inizio dell'attività mi interessavano i commenti degli altri oggi non saprei cosa farmene.
Scrivere una canzone è per me un lavoro molto faticoso poichè devo raggiungere il collegamento tra le voci di fuori e le voci di dentro.Non scrivo per esperienze acquisite ma solo per sensazioni che arrivano dall'infinito all'anima.Se questo non accade non nasce la canzone.Una volta stavo scrivendo una canzone ed alla fine del brano è successo una cosa strana,ho iniziato a rompere tutto quello che avevo intorno.Come se una forza sconosciuta e irrazionale si fosse impossessata di me.Questo durò circa 5 minuti e quando ritornai in me e rilessi la canzone mi resi conto che era bellissima...finalmente capii come scrivere una canzone.
If it sounds good to me I then sing it for a select few in our target audience. The bottom line is I am my own critic. If I like it and it makes me feel good, then it ends up that someone else does too which is an added bonus. I look for listeners reaction. The whole point is getting an emotional response from my audience (ie. happiness, reflection, angst, energy, etc)
If you're writing ti get a hit you need lots of feedback. If you're writing to please and express yourself you don't, and that makes you free. My stuff sits around for months or years. Then I copyright it and give it to my playing partner to learn. (He's no help with critiqe). Then if a few audiences like it I'll keep it on the list. If I like it, the musicians playing it like it, and some of the audience likes it then any panel of "experts" who don't can kiss you know where because I'm not writing for them, I,m writing for real people, and myself.
I play it for Randy, composition teacher and friend. And, I play it for a few selected friends whom I know a lot about their tastes.
Well, here's a funny one for ya...I used to run the songs by my producer, he would make helpful suggestions, I would augment his suggestions, and so on...by the end we had some decent songs. And soon I was writing pretty good ones on my own, and he would listen and not want to change anything. Then he embezzled over 30 grand from the record company, and he and the owner of the record company tried to sue me for that same money. They were not successful, thankfully. At one time they were two of my closest friends. I am now very careful about letting new friends in to my life. The scary part is, these people actually have children. Recently the owner tried to get in touch with me to say that he was having the producer arrested. Who the hell knows what is really going on. Needless to say, the whole experience left a pretty rancid taste in my mouth about songwriting and the music industry in general. People can seem like such good souls, such real human beings, but sadly, all too often they fail to plan, or plan to fail, get bitten by a rabid dog in the dog eat dog nature of the business world, and work out of a scarcity mentality, and turn their back on those they once called friends. And try to infect everyone around them with rabies. But I try to get back on the horse and write when I can. Its kind of like the movie "batman begins"...that producer taught me so much, then years later tried to drive a train into my house. Go see it.
By the time I let someone hear a new song I tend to consider that it is finished, and I like it enough to believe it has a good chance of stiking a chord with a certain amount of people.
I'll play it at live shows and if I feel strongly enough about it I will take it into the studio.
Then I'll post it on Taxi and submit it to hopefully appropriate listings.
I might then put it also on www.myspace.com/billwcraig
I'm always intereseted in people's feedback but I'm not sure I've ever gone back and rewritten something based on it. Probably I should be more open to doing that.
I am my own worst critic. I tend to look at the songs as my worst enemy may look at them. Many end up back on the notebook for some retouching or re-writing before they ever see the light of day.
Long ago, I was a Taxi member. I learned a lot of solid advice on song writing and song construction from their reviews. Nowadays, I try a song out for a few of the other musicians in the band, or in the music circle. I Ask them to put themselves in the position of the disinterested, or impartial, customer in a club- not a fan but the "average Joe" listener... If it passes that test, then I play it at a few live gigs to guage the audience responses. I don't ask them what they think, as their "body talk" usually says it all. And, sometimes, when that rare, special, inspired-from-somewhere song is completed, I know it is a winner. The one I have a gut feeling about, and doesn't need an outside opinion.
The first people I run it by are my band mates. It's my job to write stuff that inspires them to want to be part of it. Everyone want's to be part of something good or great. I'm not able to pay them at this point so for them to invest time, work, and energy they have to see something in it, and it starts with the songs. They all have professional ears and wide tastes and they aren't going to be afraid to criticize something I've written, which they have done in the past and it helps.
After it passes the band test I like to try on someone who is big music fan, but knows nothing about music. The average person doesn't analyze lyrics or song structures they simply like a song and want to buy it or they don't.
The third test for me is to try out live at an open mic or a gig either solo or with the band.
In summary..I try it on professionals first, the musically uneducated second, and then at a live venue. If it gets good response from all three, then it will make it to the studio and on to the CD
Sorry to hold the floor for so long everyone, I promise I'll shut up after this. Everyone should go read all of Ariel's stuff. Its really good. And it works. I wish I'd had it a few years ago...
I usually play a new song for my husband, my family & my close friends. I don’t really look for praise – I’m looking to see if there is an emotional connection, a reaction, to see if it kept their attention, those kinds of things.
I don’t look for criticism per se: if I see anything less than an enthusiastic or emotional response, I either re-work the song myself or put it aside in a file. If it’s not a strong enough song idea, I will file it & look at it again in a few months. If it still doesn’t spark a strong song hook, then I abandon it. There are far too many other songs to be written – never a shortage of subjects/angles of life to write about!
I do not upload a song nor e-mail it out. If I think it’s strong enough, I will include it in a show to gauge audience reaction.
I don’t think it’s worth paying to have a song critiqued by people you don’t know or trust/value their opinion. Perhaps it would be helpful from someone you respect & admire but still then, it’s their opinion. I’ve always lived by Dolly Parton’s credo: “don’t give me advice, give me information so I can make up my own mind”
I have had many mentors/teachers – every book I could find on the subject and every album & interview of songwriters that I admire. My aunt Angele Arsenault was the greatest influence in my life.
I don’t look for suggestions but will incorporate any ones that are offered if I happen to agree. Looking back over my previous answers, I guess I’m pretty single-minded when it comes to writing.
However, I have recently started collaborating and interestingly enough, I find myself wide open to suggestions & change. Though I consider a song to be a part of me, it is, at the same time, separate from me – it’s an entity unto its own and whatever works best for the song, is what gets written. I know I am not the only one who compares writing songs to raising children – you birth them then they take on a life of their own and you stand back & marvel at how people react to them.
Derek: thanks for making me think more deeply about what I do. I'm going to write & put a more in-depth version on my website.
I know when it's finished, and when it sounds the way I want it to. The song writes itself, it's up to me to get it down to tape. I don't think that writing songs based on anyone else's opinion, especially if they aren't in my band, is a good idea. If they had great ideas, let them write their own songs. This isn't supposed to be about writing commercial jingles to appeal to everyone, it's supposed to be about being true to your own vision. I guess that's what's wrong with music today.....I believe what Eddie Van Halen said."If it sounds good, it is good."
I much prefer having true fans, people who understand what it is I'm saying, and can feel what I feel, than to be blindly admired by ten thousand people because I'm the flavor of the week. Dropping a song to the lowest common denominator is a valid way to write?..... what is it you're after? Can't be artistic integrity.... Do you think Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Picasso, Rembrandt or any other genius sat around in a think tank and asked what was good, and wrote or painted by committee vote? Stay true to your vision, consequences be damned! If you don't like it, fine.....I don't care, the world is big enough for us to disagree. But it doesn't mean that my music sucks, and it doesn't mean that your opinion is wrong, you just don't like it. If you like it, welcome aboard, but if you don't, I'm not going to change it. This is what I do. I mean, after all, what am I, a jukebox or an artist?
I submit that I am an artist. I do not live or die by committee.
I've come accross several people who write songs and then perform them live (in their shows) to see what people think. I myself joined a songwriting group where people critiqued the songs they heard each month. However, I left the group when people stopped liking people and the song had nothing to do with it. Many times I hear better songs from people whom seem to be doing things just for fun or they got an idea and they just ran with it. For them, it's a now what type of situation. I ran into a guy who freestyled for about 45 minutes no hesitations, no stuttering (no joke either) about a guy we had just dropped off who had real bad body odor. We pulled the van over twice because we were laughing so hard but at the same time straining to hear every word because we didn't want to miss anything and also because we could not believe this guy could do this like this for this long.
I play it for everyone I know - friends, other songwriters, audiences, people who don't know me and I watch how people react. The songwriters typically tear it apart and tell me what they like and don't like. I listen and try to connect how I feel about the song with what they say. I've been known to shelve songs that don't seem to connect. If I cry when I write it, I know I've hit a truth, it's my litmus test.
Be careful!!!!
Most of the time,your first idea is the best one!Showing your work to everybody for advices can be very destructive!They don't understand exactly what you had in mind(heart)at the moment you were inspired and wrote your tune.The feeling,the emotion,the source is all yours and only yours!!!Also some people have a very intellectual approach or even a jealous one,which has nothing to do with art!So,please, show your work to others but keep in mind that you're the boss and that you cannot please everybody.You'll be surprised to discover how friends or family can be sometimes not so proud of your talents and discoveries!
I always run tunes live and pay close attention to crowd reaction.
Do people listen intently? do they dance? do they drift off and talk to their friends? As they have never heard the song before, it's a great test on how the recording will come across to new ears. (ie. too long before chorus hits? is the arrangement confusing? is there a catchy and/or exciting into? is the song cohesive?).
I've been in a workshop or two, but ultimately, I've found that there's no substitute for letting go of how utterly amazing you think you are and being brutally honest with yourself. I usually start by trusting my subconscious and letting it all pour out on the page, whether it seems to make sense or not. Then I eliminate the nonsense, save anything worth saving, and cobble it all into what I hope are compelling lyrics. Then (this is the tough part) I become a ruthless, vicious, critic/editor, closely examining everything, while asking myself, "Is this the best possible word, phrase, line, verse and chorus, or am I just being lazy, self-deluded, or both?" I do that until I honestly can't come up with anything better. Even then, it could be stunningly mediocre. But at least, I've continued to hone my craft. I guess I'd call it a "One Member Workshop".
I've tried all ofthe above at some point.from playing them to a live audience,to playing an idea for a friend..I find what works best for me is to record a demo of it,and then listen to it a bunch of times.
I find somethings I like initially won't stand the test of time..but once it's right it always sounds good to hear again.this can be time consuming,,but by the time someone hears it once.I've played and heard it hundreds of times..and if you feel good about it after all that listening..and you're being honest with yourself.
it's probably good..
Just wanted to add that while I'm talking about lyrics, I'm equally self-critical about melody, structure, etc.
Hey Derek! You have asked, What do you do for feedback on a new song you're writing?
I usually work on a strong map of the original songs many times on the acoustic guitar and until I feel very comfortable with creating a recorded version. Girlfriends, family and friends are the best to play the songs for, they give very honest feedback without hesitation usually, but I usually only let people here the versions after I press it to cd. This way the songs are exactly how I was imagining them to sound recorded, without outside opinion that could possibly lead me down a different path. I try to stay true to each song. Once I release a cd, I know quickly if some songs get great response and others don't, but at the end of the day, I wrote songs that I like personally and I think that is all that really matters. Ofcourse all musicians want other humans to enjoy what they've created, so that is also a goal in songwriting.
I've searched for people to connect with to start collaborating on songs after I noticed that some of the songwriters I respect and relate to often use their "family" of collaborators.
Both David Wilcox and Beth Nielsen Chapman, who are written about often in songwriter magazines and are quoted in Pat Pattison's songwriting book, have many songs that have 2 or more authors. One song "God Is In" that we've seen Billy Jonas perform many times, a friend saw Beth perform 2 weeks ago in DC. My friend was wondering how she knew the song or if her or Billy wrote it and...guess what...there are many authors to that song.
I once asked David how he chooses what goes on a CD. He said I try them out on the audience, if it doesn't fly it needs work or waits or dies. (and he said his audience is very forgiving to come and listen to lots of new songs when they, many times, want to hear the old stuff). AND BTW David and Beth have done a lot of writing together according to copyright on songs.
Similar to an earlier post, be careful. Jealousy, different tastes and views paint how someone see's life and therefore your songs. Find your "family" of musician's who have a similar career path, similar audience/market and help each other out. Chances are if you have the same type of fans you will be on the same wave length with intention.
I am still searching for it, I do really want that collaboration again, get's it all flowing and brings fresh ideas.
BE WELL, thanks Derek for such great topics!
Hi Derek and Hi to all the musicians here.
I have tried getting feedback from friends, family, my audience, my mailing list, Industry's expert etc. It's always good to hear their opinions but what is really matter is what you really think. Listhen to yourself. trust yourself. you know better than anyone what you really want to say. sometimes listhen to too much people it's even frustrated.
I don't ask anyone anything about what they think about a song I write! The first thing I do is come up with a tune and chord changes on the guitar, and then I think of something I want to write about! After that I just write the song and let it be! So I guess you either like it or you don't!
I used to belong to Taxi And Nashville Songwriter's Association. Taxi was very constructive with their critques but nothing happened with my songs. NSA seemed manic about the way I sent the songs in (lyric sheets etc.) and did nothing for me either. "Not suitable for today's market" was the most repeated phrase. By the time you write for "today's market" "today's market" has already changed to "tomorrow's market". As an artist, I write solely to suit myself. Art is the one place where you should be able to do that. The other side of that coin is that you may never get any appreciable sales. I think that my music may be discovered as something worthwhile after my death. If that's the case, screw it, That's what my song "Hello Music Business" is all about. I think a lot of good to great music is kicked to the curb by the music business in favor of shit.
Once I've completed the arrangement, I will play the song for people who don't usually listen to that style of music to see how the listener acts or reacts to the song. From there, I will make changes if needed. If a composer can capture the ears and heart of someone who doesn't usually listen to that genre of music, you've won over another fan.
From inspiration, creative process and feedback, every song I have written or composed has another story. Will be happy to share them with you, one by one in good time soon.
Most of my songs come to me when I'm in meditation, in a meaningful conversation or on the road. Train stations, long hallways and roof tops, for example, are good backdrops for free vocalizing: Walking and singing in Central Park feeds my inner knowing with a backdrop of fresh paint. So far, Mark A Berman arranged most of my songs. Looking forward to learn more about technical aspects of music making at Berklee College of music, in the near future. What a gift! Thanks Derek, your feedbacks are always appreciated.
Hi Derek
my husband and I are currently working on a new CD. We have moved into the World music genre which is new to us and most songs are originals. For feedback (even though we are not done with mixing) I have played the songs to friends and people I don't know very well, to musicians and people that know nothing about music. I also try to play it for younger kids (teenagers) in our neighborhood because their input is important as to how a young audience will respond to this music.
I ask spec. if they can understand the lyrics, if they like a song and what they like about it etc. I try to gather as much feedback as I can as we want to appeal to a large audience.
Gabriele
I banged on doors in Nashville pitching songs during the late 80's early 90's when you could do that. It has changed so much since then.
We had several songs on various charts over the years. There was one particular song I really liked. And I noticed that everywhere we went..it was being requested..by different folks.It was 'the' song that opened many doors for us and made it up on the charts..
I have found that your listening audience is a great 'filter' for a good commercial song. After they have heard your song several times..and they start requesting it by remembering the hook or a certain line...and..you come back to that certain town later and they still want to hear 'that song'..I can always tell by different peoples reactions if it it is going to be 'one of those.'
Since I mostly write instrumental music, this may not apply to all. However, As I create a new tune I'll play it around the house and if my son or my wife burst into the room and say, "That's cool! Is that new?" then I know I have a good thing going. As the song takes shape, I will perform it trying to work out the various sections. I can't always depend on audience reaction because if I am really on to something new, the audience may not be at the same point where I am. None-the-less, if a particular tune elicits no response or a negative response after repeated performances, it goes into dry dock.
I start with a hook that means something personal to me and build around it. It could take many adjustments or a few. Then I work in the melody after several or many tries. If it starts to sound good to me and I can recall the melody easily, I will put some tracks down on my computer. After that I play to some music friends. If it seems to get good feedback all around, I record.
This past year I've been working extremely hard on my second record. Most of the songs were co-written...in that I brought the beginnings - or even what I thought were finished songs - to my producer and we worked, re-worked and even wrote from scratch together. These are the best songs I've ever written. I think having someone you trust to really dig into your work and make changes or suggestions that you know fit with your idea of the music is very important. You can't just let anybody into that intimate space of creativity. Thanks to everyone else for their great feedback here, too!
1. I play the song for my soul, my soul tells me if it's good or not. I learned long ago to be a fountain. I make music to make myself happy first everyone else is secondary.
2. I play the song for my band and if they really don't like it, I set it aside for another project.
forget what others think... if u like the tune then record it... recording is no longer prohibitive... so see what it sounds like in a musical arrangement... complete your idea.. and then as 4 me, if i like what i hear, i will go 2 a big fancy caberet, tip a gorgeous dancer 2 dance to it onstage... then i can hear it over a great p.a., i can also judge reaction from others around me.... and u get 2 see how easy it is or is not 2 dance along with.... u get 2 talk to a lovely gal.... oh and if the song is cool enough no telling what oppurtunities begin 2 blossom !!!
I never seek advise on how to improve my songs. My music is my art and I only compose songs that sound beautiful to me.
It's great if someone else likes my music too (which people usually do) but I mainly compose for myself.
I studied with a very talented teacher for many years. First I learned to play and make lead sheets. That taught me chord progressions.
after that melodies ... Then we concentrated on lyrics and form. I remember my teacher's one comment
most of all. "How did you ever get
that song in such a mess?" My standard answer was, "It wasn't easy".
I also joined a writer's group in
Mucles Shoals, Al. We met once a
month. People came from miles and
miles around. Some smart some dumb.. but when your turn came to have your song played you had better be ready..'cause they tore it apart.. I had pretty good luck with mine because I had studied so
long with such a smart teacher. but
don't think they couldn't find something wrong.. I felt sorry for
some of the people but when you asked
for an opinion you had better be ready.I have heard songs that were
perfectly written and produced but
to me ... they weren't worth the
paper it took to write them on.
Many people ask you what you think of a song they have written but very few want an honest opinion.
TO THOSE THAT SAY THEY DON’T SEEK FEEDBACK:
Does that mean your songs can not be improved?
Or that they can be improved, but only you know how to improve it?
Or that others might have great suggestions for improvements, but you just don’t want to hear it?
??????? so judging by these questions, its obvious you have a negative take on people who say they dont seek feedback...haha...got to give you a tad bit of hard time derek!!!
of course songs can be better...and peoples suggestions can be worth while...but at the end of the day, whose opinions are the most relevant? i've heard amazing advice and ridiculous advice from everybody from record executives to fellow musicians and family members...and have had the pleasure of being part of songs that were extremely successful monetarily and songs that were never noticed...again it all goes back to PERSONAL TASTE....and at the end of the day a musician has to be true to themselves first and foremost. A "SUCCESSFUL" song isnt necessarily a better song...it is just different....and for me the song creating process is a constant bouncing of ideas off of people in the studio or comusicians on a track, etc...
i would say my BIGGEST advice for what its worth is to go with your gut instinct and vibe...and to NOT think too much about it...You could spend 10 years writing and changing a song and at the end of the day it is really just a musical snapshot with many more to come.
1. Join ASCAP as a member.
2. The program of your favorite Singers CD lists the Music Publishers for all of the songs.
3. Call ASCAP index & they will tell you the phone# & address of these Publishers.
4. Now you can submit your music & demo to
the professionals employed by your favorite singer! GOOD LUCK!
...and i have to agree with the other "Mr. Anonymous" comment on painters using focus groups to make their paintings....hahah
i have to say i'm EXTREMELY surprised at all of the responses on here as well!!!
I have one really good friend I ask for feedback all the time - I'll play it for some others when it's mostly finished - sometimes I take their advice and go back and modify it.
There's no specific formula every time - when it's done - it's done - and usually when I feel like it was written by someone else is when it's done!
In my life I've had maybe a half a dozen songs that have really moved me and the delivery was a major factor. That's not a lot considering the 10s of thousands of songs I've been exposed to. I write a song because I have something to say that I haven't heard someone say before. If someone understands the message I'm satisfied.
I failed to tell where I received the best and most honest opinions. I
taught piano lesson to beginners ..
lst & 2nd. year pupils for many years. Those children liked music and wanted to hear my songs.. They
were very honest with their opinions. They either liked the song or didn't like that old song. That simple. You know .. they were always right. Most of the
songs they listened to were children's song but sometimes they would want to hear grown up music.
I played some for them with the same results.
Children are smarter than you think
they are about many things.
Hi Derek, there are lots of good points made above. And what you did in your early years was a good thing indeed.
Songwriting as well as any other aspect of music creation can be improved by feed backs whether critiques or not.
But we shouldn't forget that Music (sounds & lyrics) as an art, is that unhindered flow from within brought before the ear of the listeners.
Some songs come entirely from within the writer and may bless many who hear them while the writer does not seek for public approval or so.
If he believes in himself and knows the source of his songs (it may not be all songs, of course), and passes out his songs to the world, there must be a contagious effect-People would make positive report of it.
The bottom line is "Does the writer love his song?" If he doesn't like it people won't like it as well no matter what.
However, I've noticed that the unhindered piece of art that flows from within does so much to catch the attention & enthusiasm of the soul from whom it emanates.
Derek
compadre
Listen to yourself, trust yourself
If I liked first
when I compose the songs on guitar or piano take me some minutes to finish the original idea ...
after take a couples month to lern how to play the composition ...
is an inpiration of a few minutes ..
I arrange and record the songs in my studio and put on a cd
a feedback : first was my father
my wife and kids
2 musicians that we are playing toguether
3 people and funs
all the very best from Jerusalem
Yehuda Glantz
I actually don't present any thing until, goose bumps. My own. then My production partner, hears em'. He gets the power of veto, over my ego. Case in point he made a choice that I would have passed on. Both tracks have gotten a lot of praise. If not from my gut if forced... I move on to the next one. That is how it is done, at Dog Hair Productions.
Chris...
First I'd like to thank Derek for this awesome forum! When I'm looking for feedback on a new song I'm working on I usually play it on the train (for complete strangers who will be brutally honest) or for a select group of friends who won't say they like it just because they like me. Sometimes I play it at a local open mic at a bar or on a college campus.
Hi Derek,
We're 2 in the bands, I compose most of it, the other member is a dj and very selective, if she does feel as right about it as I do, it's a good song.
Thanks,
Vincent / A-lix
myspace.com/alixland
An addition to my previous comment. (Wherever that was, can't find it among the billion comments made here!) If you're just starting out, I think it's important to build your creative muscles and write a lot. Don't bother that much about quality, but show it or play it to people to see how it communicates. It's a kind of language, and you develop it through responses and reactions. The fine tuning comes later, the refined use of symbols, structural elements, the subtle manipulative techniques etc.
People communicate in different ways on different levels of intimacy. Trying to reach as many as possible may not be as good an idea as finding those people that communicate in a likeminded way. The important thing is not, to me anyway, to adapt my writing to what the broad majority seem to like, but to further develop my personal style and make sure it lands where it's supposed to. For instance, I like playing in front of a focussed, listening audience. There is no point, for someone like me, in taking advice from someone who holds courses for songwriters aiming for the mainstream audience.
www.myspace.com/oldlostjohn
www.oldlostjohn.com
I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO START THIS TOPIC. BECAUSE PRESENTLY, I'VE BEEN IN THAILAND FOR THE LAST 8 MONTHS AND AM GOING BACK TO PARIS AND EVENTUALLY LONDON IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS. AND ALL MY MUSIC I'VE ACCUMULATED THROUGH MY EXPERIENCES IN NEW YORK, PARIS AND LONDON JUST DON'T SAY ANYTHING TO THEM, NADA! MUSIC AND LANGUAGE ARE DIRECTLY CONNECTED. AND YOUR HEARING OF MUSIC IS INFLUENCED BY THE LANGUAGE YOU SPEAK. AMAZING! I'VE WRITTEN AND RECORDED PLENTY OF SONGS, HENCE A NEW ALBUM http://www.digital-tunes.net/releases/henry_soul___l_a__funk_sessionsAND AT PRESENT, THEY'RE WORTH ALMOST NOTHING HERE, BECAUSE IT'S NOT SUNG IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE AND I'M NOT A FAMOUS POP STAR TV BLAH! BLAH!?
HENRY.
My method:
solitary. I record, I play, I mix, I produce.
I release every version of the song for free.
Seriously.
Then I see what sells/downloads most.
Money speaks louder than words, as do free downloads.
I mean, there are lots of good critical feedback for pay ways, but I'm a hobbiest.
Even as it continues to grow into a nice little paying side line, however, paid criticism to get suggestions how to sell my music, vs. just putting it all out for free, and seeing what sells... hmm.
I plan to package the popular stuff up and submit that to Itunes, via Cdbaby, or whatever works best.
However, in the spirit of Creative Commons, and honoring one's fan base, I'm likely to continue to give it away.
I like Mangatunes model, among others...Amiestreet, etc.
The Feedback from these markets helps me decide, and the fans can see what works, doesn't. They are not out any money, and I have feedback.
We aren't working from scarcity here.
However, I also have to limit myself, and that's where having worked 20 years plus writing music helps.
If I was writing for a goal, as opposed to just having fun, I'd need feedback if I was hitting the goal, making the Patron happy, but the joy of releasing the various variations on the internet is just that... it's all VARIATIONS.
I'd ask you, if you aren't having fun, why are you doing it? There are other ways to make money...
Now, we could talk about Cold Play and their playing... just to much like another band... but I'm not doing that, I'm just writing stuff I enjoy to listen to, putting out the work, stepping away, coming back, re-packaging, to keep it as close to free as possible for the fans, and enjoying myself to no end.
I've had more than 1000 fans listen and share my music, in the first month. Thanks to our slow reporting systems, I'll see if it's growing or stable now.
I've played no gigs. Don't tour, or do much active promotion.
I've just made it super easy for people to get the music, and if it's Jazz, I say it's Jazz. If it's Rock, it's tagged as such. New Age, etc. The hardest part for me is tagging 27 albums, EP, and singles. And that's this week. Next week, I hope to put out a dozen more I've been working on.
Trying to get a perfect song... lots of work, versus sharing the creative process, which may engage some... which is what webcomics can do... try filming say, via ustream, etc. a gig or practice session, and let people engage with you as you work...
But my music is mostly (sorry Kylie Strabo
I give it away for free.
Some things move, some don't.
But I'm also realizing the venue attracts certain kinds of people, and so I might be a huge hit one place and not another.
I also know most of my music is very good, and I only release stuff as Itunes ready, when it is ready...
I guess the best way to put it is, making it 150% easy for everyone to give feedback, but remembering that people who buy the music are making one statement, and a teacher & performer you love will also make statements that are useful.
www.clousfamily.com You can listen to all my stuff for free, and get most of it for free -- email me if there is any issue getting it -- my email is on the website, and I'll be glad to get you a copy.
One other thing, I read the guy who said he can write songs that turn on his wife. That is a happy & skilled man. "I write the songs that turn on my wife..." Or his wife supports him in his hobby LOL.
#3
I forgot the various tallies at cd baby....the digital sales tally is very telling....all of the songs sell something, but 3 of them sell pretty well and consistantly!
One of the three has been a finalist in a couple of song contests, and in one, in a peer vote it rated 11 out of several thousand entrants......so, this is yet another good gauge!
My adult kids of three and close friends, are my best critics, with a thumbs up or a thumbs down; They do-not hesitate to let me know the facts and I believe them. I usually have to go back to the drawing board and try to work out all the kinks.
I hope this is helpful.
P.S.> I forgot to add:
your audience is your best critic, they buy what they like. I just also want to thank the Lord for this gift he has given me, for He is the ultimate critic, without Him I can do nothing.
This is going to sound really amateur, but after I have recorded the song on my little 4 track, I run it by my wife first. Having played piano for years (although not in the style of music I do), she kind of knows what I aim for and can give me some feedback, pro and con. She's honest, and if she doesn't like something she will tell me, then it's up to me to decide if I think her criticism is valid or not. (I always tell HER, however, that of course it is!! HA!!) After that, I run the tune past my bass player. Since he's going to have to learn it, he has a vested interest. If he thinks it isn't good, he won't want to be up in front of people performing it. If all goes well and it gets to the point where we play it in a club, I then look for audience response. However, if it isn't overwhelmingly positive the first few times out, I have to ask myself if we are actually performing the song as well as we can. Usually, it takes a few times out at gigs for the tune to gel. If at that point it isn't getting the response I'd like, then it's up to me to decide whether it's worth re-arranging and trying it again or if I should just drop it.
This time I'm trying something different. I usually play for friends and listen to their comments. This time, I'm posting the rough tracks on www.myspace.com/shannonkaren. I blogged asking for feedback (but I cheated and said visitors to say only good things, LOL. The ego's feeling a little fragile). I'd love some professional feedback and a great producer/arranger to come into my life right about now.
I let friends, nieces, disabled bus driver, studio manager and old friends listen and note their opinions. When I get a lot of good feedback for one particular song I then send it to the International Songwriters for assessment then have it re-demod sometimes more than once. When I see my little grand nephew dancing to it and people my age I know it catchy so I try and plug it to whever I feel as the spirit moves me as I am only an amateur and as you say there is a lot of pleasure to be had from creating the final bits. I usally ask if my na's and li's sound better then try it again myself to see if they feel the same and go by the majority I ask the studio manager which sounds best, the guitar or the Doorsy sound of the organ which keeps getting killed off every time I make something but I will have that little sound in my next one do what my spirit says. Trouble is sometimes we dont listen. I am guilty of that. Now in 1970 and 1984 when holidaying in Paris near the Marais area I played it through my headphones whilst we were in a resturaunt and the owner pointed and asked to hear it through his speakers. He said he liked it it and the whole resturaunt heard it and smiled. This is real when strangers tell you yes or no. Dont be afraid to take an opportunity to ask whoever you feel to, go as the spirit moves you as I have let many important ones by-pass me. I have no ambitions anyway just like to see the smile on people's face when they like something of mine and of course everyone else's music too not just mine. This song The Silver Ship is still not how I want it to sound yet! But people like it the way it is
If people dont like it-I usually give them two to hear, then I drop whichever one they like least.
Send it to TV-I did -just for fun and ended up being told I came a close second in their choice so I was told it was not atmospheric enough so I must work on that now.
Others people's opinion matter so ask aaway. Hope this has helped.
Hi Derek, First I burn the song in quite low MP3 resolution and send it to fellow songwriters and one non musical friend who follows my work with interest. The songwriting folk are good, as is one particular producer who does backing tracks. Then I listen to it for about 100 times (no kidding) until I can't hear anymore errors. Sometimes I'll go back in and change a single note, or add one more drum beat. [I listen to it mainly while driving]. I usually act on any feedback. I'm quite willing to change elements. The story and essential chord structure don't usually move a lot, but some words and perhaps phrasing and unecessary "fat" is cut. So that's what I do. Hope it's okay.
Best Wishes, John.
Hi Derek,
When I first started out I thought once I put my pencil down it was finished. I wrote so stream-of-conscience-ish that I thought it compromised if I altered it.
At one point I used to go to my ASCAP rep here in Nashville and get his critique on a few songs. But I never completely trusted his opinion because I always felt I was some sort of burden to him and it took months to schedule a few mins of a meeting.
Ironically enough when I joined TAXI years ago I ended up LOVING their critiques on submissions. They were anonymous and therefore very frank with praise and suggestions. Even if I didn't agree 100% with any given critique, over time I saw a pattern of things multiple reviewers were saying about my writing. I would send in 5 - 10 songs at a time (yes, paying for them) to give me feedback. It really helped me to learn to edit myself.
Of course that was years ago before I ever had released my own albums, put together a band, toured, or signed record deals.
Nowadays my process is this:
I usually finish somewhere around 40+ songs a year. However, I usually fill up notebooks and my hand-held tape recorder with hours and hours of unfinished songs. Once I think I have the song (ie: i have 3 verses, a chorus, a bridge or pre-chorus if needed, etc) I type up the lyrics (typing lyrics is one of the best suggestions someone ever gave me - makes it like grading papers, not as personal as my notebook). And while I mostly write late at night, I always wait to edit myself during the mornings and early afternoons. I usually have a stack of typed songs that have made it from my notebook to my typed files. I found that I love editing myself. I make sure with a very clear mind and strong pot of coffee that every line is as good as I think I can make it and that my rhyme and meter and structure is solid and consistent. This doesn't mean I don't still like to break the rules in my structure, but if I do, I do it on purpose. Not by accident or by being lazy. Once I think it's done, I retype my lyrics and record a guitar/vocal demo. I then like to ride around in my van and listen to them (great way to pass the time touring solo). I always think of better words, lines, etc while driving. Hearing it in my car is usually the best way to know if I like it or not. This is all something I do for myself because I enjoy it. I do have a lot of recorded material that I have to go through when I play shows, but I always try to work in some new songs. And often this is where I find out which ones are connecting more than others. When I have a band backing me, I don't play as much new stuff as when I'm solo. And I guess there are many songs that I'll never play out...
Thanks for the forum to share,
-S
What I have always done, is let everyone I know and don't know lisen, here it,and I want let myself be worried about what they think about it being good or bad, but to just put it out there. For you see it is the fans; who will buy your music and thats what really matters. There is a lot of bad music out there that sales and become big hits every day. So I say to myself, what do I know! it still sold. "But note" if it is a good production, it stand to have a economic value anyway these days. Om Sukriya.
Derek, I believe every song can be improved or done with a different emphasis which perhaps the writer never thought of but I guess not seeking too much feedback means the song has run its course for the writer and there is a will to move on and not dwell on how good something could become if over modified.
What I have found is that there is a very thin line between nurturing a song and killing it. The thing about a great recording is all in the performance. If you try to recreate a performance with "a new improved" aspect I could guess any writer will tell you the essence will be lost.
www.bennytetteh-lartey.co.uk
I write to please myself, and I'm my biggest fan and worst critic. I will let select people have a sneak peek at some of my music while it's in it's writing phase. It's important for an artist to know when they write a riff/song that just simply 'kicks ass!' and not give a crap what anyone else thinks, but knows that there will be many people who don't like or care about your music. Like Zappa would say, "People are going to either get my music, or they're not." The music each person likes or hates is a very personal, subjective, unique preference. To critique the recording quality of a song or how it's mixed/produced is something that you can make positive/negative comparisons to. Another fair critique in my book would be to point out what makes a certain song sound like the genre it is being submitted to; does your Metal song really sound like the style of Metal that the music supervisor is asking for?
Thanks Derek,
I am sure that we can all write a master peice that is the first point as a standard, with a given audience you ten to work out what works and what don't quite do it...
Apart from working out with your fellow band members and who you jam with "I don't wear my heart on a sleeve" as to have someone try shed my songs as that would be like I don't really believe in what is given to us to sing by way of said inspirations and concepts in a song...
A good song will always generate it's feedback if playlisted of course and lets be real there is a lot snobby in way of devisions that say who control...
That why I would rather free my soul going for a next new free will spirited melody that say it as it is by way of realities as each to there owna methods and got to have style and plz keep enjoying those realms got fun not just inspiration...
Nuff Blessings coming our way that why I got to say play daddie play got to listen what the mystic say...
Have a good music working month for spring forth March hope all is good going forward in a music networking plan, Love n Peace in Harmony...
Wadada Selah
Wayne-mwm
I drink more.
I used to get all excited when I would create a new song.
It's like that chick who wrote a bestseller book said, on that last thing Derek sent us -
I would wake up in the morning with a song completed,
not even remembering doing it.
So I would send all the mp3's my ''genius'' completed to a bunch of people by e~mail.
I think my ''genius'' irritated a lot of people.
Now I just put 'em on my-space.
~ L A M M Y aka Mr. True ~
I also liked the songwriter's workshops. I liked better the live performances of the songs done with other songwriter's with a prize at the end of the evening of studio time. I actually won runner-up a couple of times. That really helped me to know whether or not I actually could write. I performed at a folk festival open mike and got the offer to be recorded. I guess some of my songs move people emotionally.
Lately I have been putting them on the internet to see if they sell or not and listening to them myself to see if I would buy my own work.
what did ou expect?
When I'm writing a new song I don't actually write anything down. If I can't remember it, it's probably not good enough. If it passes that test, I'll send a demo to other musicians that I respect. The last test is playing it live. Even after all of that, if I can't get the recording the way I hear it in my head, I'll scrap the song completely. I write a lot, so there is no lack of material, but I am hyper critical of my own work.
I go to the flea market where everyone is looking for a bargain and nobody likes anything.
I whip out my guitar in front of a bunch of strange musicians.
Start singing my song as they try to play along "unrehearsed"...
If we get a lot of applause when we are finished and someone in the audience or "band" orders a CD when it is recorded, the song is ready.
If the audience don't throw anything but $10 billS at us. I start recording on the spot.
We generaly post a few bulletins on MySpace with the rough cut of the song asking our friends and fans for feedback and what the songs evoke in the way of emotions. Alot of the times the lack of response is the only way we know it is not well recv'd
Sometimes we get an overwhelming response of "WOW! that's GREAT! and that's when we know we are on the right track. It would be wonderful to have a true industry pro to submit our songs to but the expense is not something most of us can afford as struggling musicians. Sometimes the quality of recording screws us up too.
It seems we must have a top notch recording to really present the song to the public, yet again it is a question of cost. This band has more than 4 albums worth of material waiting to be pro recorded. Do we need to take a chance and find the money to do it ourselves? ...or can a really good song convince folks "These days" to invest. I hope someday one of the songs we "put out to the world" will convince someone to reach out to us and help us realize our dreams. If not...we will just keep trying and "Keep The Faith" that GOOD songs are what this is ALL about.
Thanks for bringing up a great topic.
~Rebecca aka "HayBeck"
artist rep/Forever's End
www.foreversend.com
www.myspace.com/foreversend
I took songwriting workshops many years ago. The commentary by the other participants was for the most part not useful to me. I should write a song about that songwriting workshop -- there were some real strange birds! However, these were aspirants; a higher bar of professionalism and accomplishment might have resulted in something valuable.
My producer/arranger often suggests rewrites. I get annoyed by these requests but in every case they result in my writing something much stronger.
I have only done limited co-writing but I think it could be very promising.
But when I write, I play the song for my husband and son. If they like it I sometimes post it on YouTube. If it makes it to the recording studio I know it will get polished in melody, lyric and arrangement prior to final production.
Sometimes a melody comes to me like a gift from above -- more beautiful than banal. I always worry in such cases that I've ripped someone off. When that happens I rehearse the song for gigs and ask the musicians if it's reminiscent of anything. So far I've never been told I'd ripped off another tune. So I think those are the occasions where I tapped into the universal songwriting motherlode.
As a children's performer, I started off trying ideas out with my daughters. If they seemed to like something, I'd take it in to the daycare I was bus driving for. If it went over there, I'd play it at other daycares as those gigs became more and more common. All the while, I'd make refinements in the form and lyrics based on kids' responses. I shortened a section on a song once because I noticed the kids consistently getting fidgety about halfway through it. Children's reactions are pretty direct and easy to read that way, so I can usually tell when I'm at least headed in the right direction.
DEREK
YOU NEED TO EDIT THESE COMMENTS OR AT LEAST PUT THEM IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER THERE ARE FAR TO MANY MOST OF WHICH ARE NEITHER HELPFUL CONSTUCTIVE OR INFORMATIVE AND IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN PEOPLES INTEREST MAKE THEM BRIEF OTHERWISE THEY BECOME A SERIES OR USELESS RANDOM THOUGHTS
I play it for my girlfriend because she is the most honest person. Then I send it to the engineer who mixes all my records and my snobby friend (who plays in a band). Lastly I send it to my parents and if they hate it I'm doing a great job as a writer. I have lots of writer friends but I find I get a more clearly constructed critique by people that just love music and don't play an instrument or write.
The first thing I do after writing a new song is I record it onto a cassette tape and play it back. Hearing it, you can determine what needs to be improved. You may decide that the lyric needs some work or maybe the pace of the rhythm should be changed. Once you have got a clear idea of what you want, then record a final version. You might at that point try to play it at an open mic in front of people and get the publics reaction.
To Gordon and those like him
Please DON'T write your entire comment in capitals as this makes it very hard to read.
I am a jazz composer and hiphop lyric writer, so my requirements are a little different. My formula is simple:
Club Tested, Club Approved
peace - f
Well stated, Sam. But in return, I have never heard of you either. I am not at all looking for the broadest possible audience for my music, so none of it is created to a standard that generates approval. It is simply created, and the audience that is hungry for it gradually appears. It's kind of like musical reverse engineering... if the supply is created, a demand will show up. It may not be mass approval demand that will sell millions, but I am just not interested in competing in that market. I am currently selling between 50-100 CD's month to a small niche market, by word of mouth. For now, I'm quite comfortable with that. Thanks for your thoughts.
Listen carefully! When I write a song, I just finish it and it gets put straight out usually if it's not saved for an album. If I had to stop,... doubt myself,.. second guess myself, and then gather everyone's opinion before I released something then I would have never released the over 50 different records I did. I can't speak for other artists but here's a lil theory; Once a song is finished, it's no longer yours. It goes out into the world and becomes (everyone else's song) and they accept it into their lives or they don't. It has never been my objective to satisfy everyone.
That would just be impossible. Instead I focus my songs on being a part of the musical collective consciousness within my genre rather than trying to jump on top of the pile. Make sense???
One thing to add...I always try to share songs with NON-musician friends for feedback. I find that it is MOST times a different type of song that appeals to a non-musician vs. a musician. And I'm not really trying to impress other musicians for the most part as they aren't going to buy my CD anyway.
First, I have never been able to write a song in the parking lot and come on stage and sing it. The creative process is different for everyone. But, once a song finally feels presentable, here is a few things that have really helped hone it.
Friends who are honest enough , and savvy enough, to listen to the initial unveiling are essential. The uncertainty in me is such that a new song likely would never be heard without there perusal. Thumbs up or thumbs down, their heartfelt critique is the beginning.
Then there were the times in Austin and Nashville when I would sing new songs accapella to customers in my cab. You would be surprised how many people really got off on it. I could often gauge the quality of the lyric by there spontaneous response . Sometimes, I would just play my cd’s. When folks where moved to inquire about the singer, I would invite comments. People can get down right insightful .
Songwriters nights are invaluable to me. Clubs that are comfortable enough to climb on stage and debut a song. I’m sure its not like birthin’ a child, but its always a very anxious moment. Then, after I ‘ve finally gotten through the tune for the first time, I can relax and see how it was received. Fellow songwriters rarely have a problem letting you know what they think. You can learn a lot about song crafting.
Listening to other folks material helps keep me sharp and creative.
I arrange the song . A song can always be improved. A word here a triplet there can make an incredible difference. The point is that I stay open to the creative spirit, however it comes and am more than willing to make changes to improve the tunes. Editing, editing, editing.
Finally, I’ll put a new tune in a set. After playing it several times, it becomes fairly evident if the song’s a keeper.
dale
I usually play new tunes out at an open mic and see if it engages the audience and/or receives feedback from the crowd. By the time I do that, I've usually worked it to the point I'm comfortable with it to be presented to the public.
Sometimes I'll notice something I can tweak to make it flow better, and then make those changes, like a lyric adjustment or a melodic fine tuning. I've had people in the audience be inspired by something they heard and make a suggestion for a subject to write about. Mostly I receive positive feedback from other musicians in those places. They're a very supportive community.
I haven't had any severe in-depth critiquing since my days in flute repertoire class in college. I'm usually aware when I need to go back and adjust something. I'm always open to what people have to say, whether I agree or not since it's true for them and I can have greater awareness as a result.
Right now I'm working on two instrumental projects - I can't play all the parts at one time on multiple instruments, so I won't be able to use my traditional live methods for that - I'll bring it over to the studio for my colleagues to take a listen and see what they have to say. Jim Gardiner is a Grammy-nominated engineer with multiple gold and platinums to his credit, so I value his input. We'll be doing some collaborating in the near future either on these or other new tunes.
Usually I listen to my gut. If it feels good, then I move to the next and then revisit it later to see if it still feels good.
Hey Derek THANX, I find that when people listen to music they're hoping that the sounds and lyrics will change the mood, we all want to "feel it" not just hear it.. it's different when your new song is being critiqued by another pro. we listen for things that are really high-tech and structured. Usually when I pick up friends who are not musicians/poets. just to ride out. I will put on a new song and just wait for some kind of reaction. someone is gonna say something evertime. positive or negative about it. if after 4-8 bars no one says anything, to me that's a Hint.I dont inquire I don't push. sometimes though I'll find a different set of ears to play it for. ATO'
Good honest feedback is golden and never to be missed!
I try to maintain deep working relationships with many people who have both great skill and who will be brutally honest. That's a lot quicker than waiting for a workshop to come along.
I work with poets to craft words, composers to help with melody and harmony, producers who can find the weak points in arrangement, engineers for recording weaknesses.
I get as broad a range as possible.
The last thing that I want is someone to simply praise the work. However, shredders need not apply. there is no reason to offer (and this is a real comment) "I like your other work better" So? like and dislike statements about the work are just about useless.
What I need are specific comments that can make the work better: a stronger chord, more variation in the melody, more poetry, what-have-you
I usually try totally new ideas out on close associates to assess the concept.
Then I craft the work into what I think is good example, record it and send it around to my "team" and get reactions and suggestions. I give special attention to anything that more than one person mentions.
Then I might take that work in front of audiences to find weaknesses, not only in the work itself, but in performance, as well.
then I start the polishing on work that's been through these preliminary stages. Here is where sending a decent test recording around to the "team" can really move from 'ok' to 'good'.
Finally, when the material has been through many stages of editing, it has to be brought up to performance level. I use repeated recordings and videos to polish the work - this part is usually done by me alone.
I usually work on a song by myself for an extended period until I feel it's "ready", until it feels good to me.
Then I'll show it to my husband for the first honest feedback (he's the first one to tell me it sucks if it does). Then it gets tweaked (or not).
Then I'll often share it with my musician colleagues. Rarely, I will share it with others (friends and family), though I don't rely upon them for production feedback. I'll keep polishing it by myself until it's feeling really good. Then, it can go out into the world.
What a great blog, Derek!
I actually play my songs to one particular friend. He's one who's opinion matters the most to me. I've gotten both praise and criticism from him, but to be honest it's mostly praise. Maybe that's the reason why I feel I trust him more than others.
Some of my songs got better because of my friends' criticisms. In one song, there was too much of this thing, and in another there was something missing in the middle (like a transition). I made changes based on those opinions and I was very happy with the results.
But I steer clear of pop people. I got this criticism one time: "Her voice doesn't sound professional, like Britney Spears." Well, I guess people are entitled to their opinion. Even if it's wrong.
I write when I have something that needs to be expressed, and this is the most natural path FOR ME. Then I find the melody which the lyrics usually choose for me.
Then I try it on myself first, then closest people to me.
If they give positive feedback I'll go to my arranger and get his imput. The end result is usually somewhat of a collaboration of all the above.
I play a new song for a couple of friends,then I might play it on a show.Someone once told me (We don't write songs for musicians we write for the listening public because either they like it or they don't.Musicians listen as a musician for mistakes or for something they can add to it.
After being convinced with the song myself, I play it to the people i know as being honest and frank , whose reaction i can recognize, and their feedback is constructive. My woman first, then colleagues producers and songwriters that i admire for their skills and experience, then, once i have a good mix,I spread it to the public, to see the general feedback.
Thanks for another great question Derek. I like to take new songs to my voice instructor. Once I flesh out the melodic notes, I can finish the arranging. My husband is my sounding board at home but usually loves everything.
When I want some true criticism, I just show it to my band. If they like it, they'll work with it and we'll change it around for us. If they start staring into space, I just save it for acoustic shows or put it back in the pile for later inspiration.
By the time people hear it, it's done.
Sometimes I do play some of the tracks I've been working on to a few close friends. I never ask for their opinion but I do pay attention to their face expressions as they're listening to the music. When I do that I don't seek for approval, I seek for any kind of reaction. If I see people reacting to my music (in ANY way, really) then my mission is accomplished!
Greetings from Brazil
i play the new song to friends and family although they can sometimes be biased it give some idea if it is any good
I play some songs for my wife, especially those that she directly inspired--She inspires all of them in some way. Also, I like to let songs sit. If I still like them a few months or a year down the line, I'm pretty satisfied that I have a good song (at least according to my aesthetic standards.)
Hello Derek: There is no right or wrong in song writing. We are expressed from within. The way we know and feel the power of a song is when it screams excitement from our internal force as we write it. How good of a receptical we are or our capacity is not determined by us, but by others. Test every way possible, because no one knows what music and lyric formula will work the best for the quickest, and most enduring response. Mostly we must remember that since we are writing for others we should try to judge how feel first by repitious review testing logic, and emotions in every way we can before sharing it. Does it make you feel good, happy, sad. is it fun? Go ahead talk to yourself, but listen for everybody.
I usually hear comments about my sytle more than a specific tune. I get alot of positive feedback about my guitar work, most of my listeners don't realize I do ALL the instruments on my tracks. One fan I just mentioned that to after being asked who else was on my CD, was shocke d to hear, its just me!
I wonder about feedback?! go to www.lighthouserestorations.org and give me feedback about the lighthouse project I'm doing please! Keep on listening! Enjoy!
Craig
I let no one hear any of my material until it is completed and out on the streets for sale. Then they may comment all they want.
I have a couple of routes to feedback and it really depends on what I am writing. I have family in the advertising business, so if what I am working on is a jingle, I usually screen it with him and see what he thinks. Is it catchy, does it mention product and features enough, will people remember it, is it original, etc. If I am writing songs for others, I try to let them decide where things need to go and when I am "done". For my own material or songs I am shopping, I have found that family an friends just cannot be objective with my material. But, their friends and family can. So I have often asked my friends to let their sisters, brothers, mothers, friends, etc., listen to my tracks and give them honest feedback. At that point, the songs are basically set and what I am looking for is similar to what I look for in jingles, do they like it, is it catchy, will they remember it. Sometimes this feedback is the best because your friend can blow it off on someone else and you will get honest opinions. We don't perform in clubs or smaller venues, so our ability to play new material as a screening source is limited. Most our performances are larger venues and may be opening for someone or an event...not the place to try new stuff. But I have seriously considered doing some writers night stuff with just an acoustic to get the live feedback thing! As I am sure most of you songwriters think...the last song you write is always the best...so KEEP WRITING!!
We write instrumental music, and rely on audience applause or comments. We also check out stats and comments on YouTube.
I usually keep the feedback on any new songs I'm writing to a minimum. At Musicians Institute they used to do the same type of thing as they did over at Berklee where they'd put you in a room with a bunch of your peers and tear your song apart note for note. I think that at that stage when you are aspiring to be a great songwriter, this kind of input can be very valuable. As you develop as an artist, the input you get as you climb up the ladder is still just as harsh but it's coming from particular people such as your producer, your band mates and/or your record label. I tend to keep the input to those people alone as anything more than that is too much input at that stage of the game. By surrounding yourself with people who have recorded hundreds of number one hits in the type of music you are writing, the quality of input changes to a much more specific arena. Becoming specific in this way is important if you know what direction your music is going and where you want to go with it. Bottom line, if you are trying to please everyone else with your music but you, you will never write a great song. Listening to everyone else's opinion but yours leads to ignoring your natural instinct. As this instinct becomes lazy and you rely on other peoples opinions, you songs become sterile. It is far more important to follow your heart in what feels good to you then to rely on the opinions of others. At the end of the day, if you have the right outside opinions surrounding you that are tried and tested while staying true to your heart, you are far more likely to have the winning combination towards amazing music.
My songs generally start out like all organic life forms; small, frail, and frightened, like a baby human, and attached sorely to my own vulnerability as with an umbilical chord. I handle them very tenderly at first, and always privately, one on one, nurturing them until I am confident that I have made choices that I feel proud of, and can be responsible for, and that I believe will allow the song (and my self) to stand up to critics (without suffering irreparable damage), before I even think about bringing it into the open for others to hear. This process usually takes about a week of frequent immersion and editing/changing, and "feeling" my way through it until it seems to go the way it wants to. The song is the life form. I do my best to help it be what it wants to be in the best way, and to detach it very carefully from my vulnerability when I sense it is mature. Only when I feel proud of it, and personally safe, do I play it for someone else, usually live, usually a family member like my wife or kids, but it could be anyone within earshot at the time. Some songs never make it out of the nest and into the ears of others, because I feel they cannot survive on their own, or I have not found the key to their strength, or I sense they are "Just for me to play with", or they are simply not finished. If they pass this first test in public - that is, if I get a positive response to the song - then I play it privately again another 50 times to make sure it really as good as I can get it, or acceptable to me, and that the critics were justified in their favor. Recently, I wrote a song and played it live for my whole family, got a widely popular response, and then proceeded to take it back to the nest and change it dramatically in almost every aspect so that it scarcely resembles it's original form. I am far more pleased with it now, and I know it is better than it was, so I don't care much that it was previously liked.
When I write a song and it is finished on paper, to me it is complete. I think if you write to please the people, you have missed the mark. Never discard a song you have been given negative feedback on from others. Just put it on your shelf and keep on creating.
Great questions and responses. I think that web sites can help a lot in that the number of hits shows a degree of interest. Performing live is also huge in learning what folks think of the song and the performance. Family and friends can give you valuable gems, too, so long as you know a gem when you see one. All feedback is valuable though the writer needs to sort out the "taste" issues. Workshops could be fantastic if they gel by way of respect and trust. I would say the writer needs to feel that he or she is in a group of peers.
I write the song, and sing it in my head hundreds of times, - while im driving, jogging, lying in bed.I imagine it live and what part of the set Id include it.. eg is it a good opening song? or would I close with it? what story could I link in with it to tell on stage as I tune my acoustic..I play at local open mic, for random ppl I meet, I rehearse in a old stair well in town that is 7 levels high and often i meet passers by..I can gauge reaction where the song is having a dead spot or confused section..then comes recording to a basic click track, vocal and acoustic and email some honest people who know my audience and ask for critique.. but remembering why I am writing the song, and understanding if someone doesn't like it I'm not a terrible person or musician.. but I am always interested if someone says .. ouch.. it would be arrogant not to.. songs change with age and Im always finding new intro's and polishing parts of them as I get more experience..that's the beauty of this art! hope this helps someone..
I normally introudce the song as someone else's, and offer to let them take the song with them and give me feedback later. I let them take it with them because they'll listen to it more carefully than they would if you force it on them at a particular time when they may have other things going on or on their mind. I tell them it's someonelse because people are much more likely to to be honest when giving an opinion about someone they don't know, and someone who doesn't know them
I develop a theme, which I flesh out lyrically and instrumentally. I do not play it initially for anyone. When I know it is a finished song, I demo the tune and send it out to my business partners, my co-writers and certain friends who have a love of what I do and who I am. How they respond has less meaning than how I feel about the song
Interesting topic Derek. I like to record it on my computer,put it up on my myspace for a few days. Let it run free. Maybe re-record it later.
I do go back and edit myself,lyrics mostly. Tighten things up.
I write to express a feeling I'm having in a musical form. I don't really think about what will happen with it afterward.
It depends - If I am writing for a client and I've written a temp track, then I post a sample online, leave a phone message and wait for client response. I *always* leave a voice message in addition to sending an email, very important! (If possible, I have a real phoine conversation as well). This allows the work to progress as fast as possible without losing the human interaction.
If I am writing for my band, I always ask my drummer Lamar for a first opinion. Mainly I'm checking to see if a new composition sounds too much like something I've already written or published, etc. If so, I try to save just one part of it, maybe a voicing or modality, and then I throw the rest away so that everything stays fresh.
I think we figured out once that only one in three things that pop into my mind ever make it all the way to the stage, but I examine each one early-on and make a quick decision about what I'm going to do with it. I suppose it's kinda like panning for gold.
It is important for me to have a few close friends generally fellow musicians who will be brutally honest about my songs. Immediate first reactions by others are very telling and should be considered. It is good to remember that different people will like different songs, so some times you have to forget criticism and trust yourself.
I play it for my wife. she has really good taste & gives great critiques. I don't usually make very many changes once I finish it to play it for her.
I have read only about 10% of the comments here - popular place. But I've seen no mention of RedFizz.com. They can really slay you there. I got this one: "Just too cold and pointless." No friend is going to say that. Others like my stuff, so I'm not going out back with a razorblade or anything, but it's good to know what some people are going to think. Plus, there's always some truth in there. My sound needed warming up, which I achieved with a different amp and an EQ. RedFizz rules.
I think getting feedback is absolutely INVALUABLE....always wondered where you draw the line with co-writing? I mean...if some "feedback giver" spews out this mint suggestion of a line or title or melody change...(and it gets used) ~ isn't that co-writing?
I play it for my band and if they like it, we do it. Case Closed.
I wonder about people who pay some silly "Expert" to evaluate their songs. Unless that "expert" has written and performed hits in the exact same genre as me, why would I be dumb enough to think they have anything to say? If they were so good, they would be busy recording more hits.
Of course, if McCartney wanted to evaluate my songs, I would happily pay him $29.95. But Joe Shmoe from some online service? How the heck are they qualified?
With Gemini Soul, we work up a new song based on a simplified version recorded by our bassist, then play it live. Since we use a lot of improvisation, the song usually evolves over time before settling into its "shape." Audience feedback plays a big role in shaping our music.
This is a good topic. I think above all the song has to resonate with the songwriter. I'm not suggesting that he or she ignore all other incoming data--audience response, comments of respected peers etc--I'm just saying that if the songwriter doesn't feel it, the listener surely will not either. I think most songwriters have a built in filter; they just know when it is working and when it is not. There is a danger of listening to too many voices. Your song becomes a focus group product rather than an expression from the inside. I respect songwriters who can write more objectively than I can. I've tried writing for others and learned after time that I was better off writing for myself. Of course there are dangers inherent in that approach as well. It is a fine balancing act for sure.
I see my song writing as a work of art in the audio arena. The same as painting a picture or writing a story, I already have the big picture of the final results in my mind; therefore, I will tweek the final product where I feel it is needed and BAM...there it is. Take it or leave it...it's ME. I don't try to please others with my creations. I am not in a competition, nor am I seeking fame and fortune...beside that; I know that my work will not please all of the people even some of the time because we all have different likes and dislikes. My joy comes in completing a project that I can share with others.
Princess THEOPATRA
aka Theola Bright
I sometimes play new songs for friends looking for honest opinions one way or the other. After I have a general idea of how people I know like or dislike something, it may go through a series of revisions and then once I feel satisfied with the song, it goes on to a site where I can get reviews from people I don't know, since these are the people whose interest I'm really trying to gain.
There are plenty of sites that can/will provide honest reviews. Garageband.com has been one of the most helpful for me in that regard.
Never done the paid critique thing and I don't think I would want to use that route. Part of feels it's too easy to get glowing praise about a song when the subject of the critique and the funding of the critique are the same and in a sense monopolized. I mean, look what happens most of when the government is accused of wrong-doing and they do an internal investigation. The headline almost always end up looking like "Government clears government of any wrong-doing". Now, if someone else paid a third party to do a critique of my material, then I might feel better about sincerity of the result. This is what commonly happens when a music mag pays their reviewers to critique new releases. All that having been said, I think the best reviews come from people who don't have any financial interest in the success or failure of the artist.
I don't have a songwiriting teacher or mentor, but I have several books on song and lyric writing.
My own process involves a lot of self-editing. If I don't get that 'raising the hair on the back of my neck' feeling as I'm writing it, I drop the idea. If the melody is not catchy enough that the next time I come to it, I'm taken with it, I forget about it. Sometimes, just a catchy riff is all that remains, and I'll tuck it away and use it later...
Usually, when I feel I'm onto something, I write the whole thing extremely quickly, so that the whole chorus and bridge is done. I might come back and write another section on another day, but the melody is usually nailed down in the first pass.
If all else fails, pets can be very useful! I'm not kidding... my cat has very discerning taste. If he's interested, then I know I'm onto something good!
Good question, Derek.
, however it's not the reason I may go back to the tune I wrote years ago to make some changes in coda, bridge or to redo the arrangement. It's just because how I feel about it. I know that nothing is perfect, you can always make it better.
Usually I give myself the most negative criticism. I used to show my new tunes to my teacher when I was in colledge. I do play my tunes to my family and friends for a feedback. I do appreciate any criticism, especially constructive one
Songwriting is something I am still trying to figure out in a way. While I am driving these thoughts come in my head and I try to put it down on anything that is near by. A few words here and there and I file it and go back to it later. Sometimes they happen fast, sometimes they take years. Maybe it’s like a pandora’s box, because at the heart of it you are trying to tell someone a story and you are trying to get someone to understand what you are saying. Simple in a way yet never the same, like pealing back the skin to get to the heart of the a good story.
So once that is done and I have a basic song I try it out, at a gig or an open mike and see if it is working. If it works I bend and shape it as I go along through the miles. I like what Jack Hardy does at his place in the village. You have to bring a song you wrote that week and bring the words. So when I am in the city I try to stop on by. At his small place there are many folks and with a little bit of food and wine, you go around in a circle and you try your new tune out, it does keep you on your toes. But I do not believe there is a set way to write songs. What works for one does not work for others and on it goes.
I have entered competitions and paid for the critiques, but this gets expensive. I ask friends for feedback, but mostly I depend on my own 'gut' feeling if a song would get it's message out there. I'm not a performer, so it's hard for me to get responses other than through competitions.
I write and record a lot. I post my work on the web and watch how the website reacts. I'm in it for the creative process. If a song sticks to the wall... GREAT. If not... I love it as an offspring just the same.
Great question - I've been moderating a monthly critique session for songwriters in Austin, Tx for 13 years. It's free, always postive, and we encourage works-in-progress. We hear amazing things!
I have a two part process: First, I rehearse the song until I can really play it well, then I record it onto a Zoom H4 play it back and critique it myself; I am my own worse critic.
Second, if the song passes my scrutiny then I will sneak it in at the beginning of one of my sets to see how a live audience likes it, or I will play part or all of it during my sound check depending on the gig and who is present. Sometimes playing it live gives me additional ideas for the tune judging by the audiences responses as I am playing it. If I hold the audience's attention for part of the song and not other parts then I may adjust accordingly. After about the 6th time of playing it live, the song will be either a keeper or I will go back to the "drawing board".
V/R
Jim G.
The only time I let anyone see a song before it is complete is when I send a copy to my brother for his comments. When I play a song for the local NSAI group it is essentially done and tho they usually rip it to shreds, I am generally satisfied with what I wrote. Often songwriters who are not nearly as good as me offer advice that would change everything. It's a lot like editing an article, you want to change only that which needs changing and that which will truly improve it - not just change it for change's sake. Usually the advice offered would completely change the song and its meaning. Some people say there's not enough information in the song. To them I say I intend for each individual to use their imagination so that different people will get different things out of it. The one good advice I did get was a suggestion to make my second verse the first verse. The second verse was more powerful so I did move it to the first verse. I find some of these critics to be people who love to hear themselves talk. Myself, I tend to critique songs with a gentle hand unless it is something outlandishly awful or my pet peeve: full of misspellings. As Barbara Cloyd said "If one person finds fault with something in your song ignore it but if everyone says the same thing they're trying to tell you something." Almost always before I put a song out there for people to hear it is pretty much done even to the point of already being professionally recorded. I have confidence in my songwriting ability and others like my songs but the person I am trying most to please is myself. I played one song at Durango and a guy said my song was among the top 50 best songs he had heard in his entire life. I played this same song at a club in Gulf Shores and a beautiful young woman cried the whole time. This is the type of feedback that validates my songs. I have had other people record a couple of my songs and that is a compliment even though I felt they didn't do such a hot job.
For the second part of your query, yes, I do belive I have some songs that can not be improved on but for my other songs, if someone can offer a suggestion I agree with then I will gladly change them. I think a lot of songs fall in these general catagories: bad, not quite good enough, good enough, good, better than good and great.
Dereck, If you're considering doing a service that does song critiques for pay, (that is essentially what NSAI does) then I would say go for it. A very important factor would be the professionalism of your panel of critics. NEVER insult your client. Do it in a timely factor.You might want to go a step further and offer to pitch songs that meet certain standards. You might also offer to put up a list of mp3s of the picks of the month along with the critics comments so people can hear what a good song should be. Join NSAI and see how they do it and improve on that to set yourself apart.
Feedback? I realize your average solipsistic super-star surrounds himself with sycophants sucking up his stash, but I, a life-long iconoclast, have always worked in a vaccuum. The only exception is my (now 26 year old) son: when he was 10 I got him to play a bass line while I played chords, taped it on a cheap cassette player, put him to bed and then worked with that to write the melody. Also that year I wrote a song for/with him at the piano (the only time! I'm a guitarist)and later changed the words and title and it's on my 2nd record.In general he's been my only sounding board: his name is Jarrett Blake and rightly he's my sole heir!
Hi Derek,
What I've just started to do is post lots of my songs on Youtube at about 2 minutes each and I'm going to see what feedback comes for this..
Thanks,
Len Squires
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=len+squires&aq=f
I take my songs to my peers in two different songwriting associations in my town. Each month we have a friendly songswap and group critique opportunity at the local Borders and at a coffeeshop. We have regulars, newbies, curiosity seekers and other assorted kindred spirits, making a great mix of opinions and feedback. I think it's important to have a regular infusion of this kind of stuff if you want to keep honing your craft. It keeps the creative thing going.
I don't typically solicit feedback; by the time I'm playing a song for people, it's pretty much done.
But.
I am beginning to consider changing this approach, out of a desire grow and deepen as a writer.
I think it's important to be REALLY careful whose opinion you ask for; I'm working on widen my circle with people whose opinion I respect and can learn from.
My comment is actually a question. Where is there a forum for such a critique service online or otherwise?
Jon: There are some mentioned here (find ".com" on this page). Not many, though. I might make one. -- Derek
Hi,
I record rough demos of a few songs, say 4 or 5. I then give copies to a select few friends and family members who's opinions I trust. I ask them to listen and let me know if anything jumps out at them. They are not musicians so they don't get detailed. They just tell me which ones they thought were "good" and which ones did not interest them.
Being a professional performer for 20 years, the best feedback in my opinion is acheived by performing the song to different live audiences on a consistent basis. A live audience is truly the best way get an accurate picture of how strong and potent the song really is.
The song of course has to be finished well rehearsed and polished prior to performing live venues.
Another way is your own personal intuition as you are writing it. If the song strikes that universal chord we all posses,or it makes you cry, or it creates a strong inner emotion then the song is telling you...sing me out!! Sing me!!
In my case as well as in many other songwriters there is another unknown element.
Sometimes a song we write which we don't necessarily like to much, can become one of the public's favorite. This I can't explain but it does happen and it feels surprisingly very cool.
You got please yourself, as the song goes, and not be listening to too many other voices--at the inception. I tend not to preview anything while in it's tender, fragile state of being. When I feel it's strong and healthy and can walk on two feet I'm open to input regarding the arrangement from other musicians I respect. I'll play it for friends and loved ones and then complete strangers
and am often surprised by the reactions. Then seeing how it "feels" played live, how it goes over with an audience will pretty much determine if your affection for the song is shared by anyone else on the planet. Sometimes it is, sometimes it ain't. No, I would never pay for a critique or take it to college!
I have a few trusted professionals that i'll run it by. But i'll also play it for my girlfriend and best friend, as they're not Pros and thus have a more pedestrian view. So I get a variety of types of opinions. Songwriter workshops are great though. However, there are those who like to criticize songs just because they can not because it really needs it. Everyone has a way they'd rather hear a tune. So it's quite subjective to a certain extent.
I completely finish the new song, and promote at shows that I will be debuting a brand new song, then play it, and afterwards ask the crowd what they think about it.
Sometimes friends, other musicians, and family give me feedback about my songs. I try to stay open to criticism but it's difficult. For me my songs are like children and I love them all and try to look at them equally although I realize that they have different strengths and weaknesses. Eventually I put them out into the world and let them roam free. Ultimately, the song I'm working on has to excite me. It's never going to work if I don't believe in the material one hundred percent.
Hello!
What do I do when I already got the critics... Do I then make attempts to improve the song?
1. No, most of the times, I think, well, it is good enough, although I wanted to get peoples opinions, so what... Getting critics is mostly helping me with the NEXT SONG.
2. Yes, sometimes it can give me an important knock. But just, if people really listen and really comment.
Most of all I think it is very difficult to decide, which things in music are coming natural, and which ones should be improved by technique.
Have a nice day!!!
I usually run it by my bandmates. I'll record an idea or entire song on an 8-track, and then upload the MP3 for my bandmates, and sometimes other friends to listen to it. Then I'll email them to get some answers, or I'll give them a call, and get together for some beers to discuss it. This method has always worked for me.
Paying for criticism seems a bit much for me. Free is the way to go.
Music is a universal language no matter what gendre. It is also away to express oneself. The best way I have found to get good feed back is to play it live at the right event that works with in the boundares of that event. Country/Bluegrass/Folk/Pop/Gospel.
If people comment on a new original tune or/and you see there respones in the crowd you know toy got a good song.
I volunteer in prisons and halfway houses and even though they may be a captive audience, they are very sincere in their responses. It is one thing to play a new song to a friend in a controlled environment like your living room; it is another thing to be live in front of people. A good song will elicit a good response and a great song will elicit an even greater response. The people will let you know. There is also a great lesson to be learned in reading 'The Hit Men'. Not an easy read, but a worthwhile pursuit.
I have a spot on Myspace that I use for posting demos. Some are fairly well developed, others just guitar and a scratch vocal.
It lets friends from all over have access. Some offer thoughts and opinions. Many don't! But it seems to be a sensible way to approach a feedback loop.
Do your gigs and the audience will let you know if a)you're playing to the right audience or b)if you are, if the song is a crowd pleaser. If you go to outfits like Taxi and others for evaluations, you'll spend a lot of money and get some wage drone's worthless opinion. Few successful artists used this type of service. It is a ripoff. Focus on your art and rise and fall on its merits. So I say if YOU are obsessed and inspired with your art, whatever it is, you will succeed sooner or later. You will find your audience. I might add that your music is an expression of your current level and capacity, and will change and evolve over time according to a variety of factors. Best to be entirely objective about any praise or blame, or ignore it altogether. Just do what you do.
I think garageband.com is a great way to understand how people react to your music. You get tons of reviews from all kinds of folks. Unfortunately, you give them finished songs, so the feedback informs future compositions more than fixing a song in progress.
I usually share with fellow musicians once I'm at the point where I feel most comfortable with the tune. I have also began a small network of industry professionals that share some insight and constructive criticism when needed.
Playing live is usually the most direct way to get unbiased feedback. You can feel excitement versus antipathy quite clearly at a live music venue. Be especially aware of the *strangers* at your shows. If someone you don't know is completely absorbed in your song, you know you're on to something good.
I frequently write a song with a particular performer in mind. If they like the demo and want to sing it, (or play it) I consider the song worthy.
I generally don't seek feedback. I just work on a song until I'm happy with it.
That being said, I'm sure my writing could be improved by more feedback.
i worl with caple producers and they listen the song and i wait for their opinion about the son or my children alwais have good opinion about the song ,,,thanks
I married a successful songwriter when very young, and he brought me along to all of his workshops, and I co-wrote every day for ten years with him, and without him saying "That's it! That's a single." On the day he passed away, I wrote my first "great song". Oh, poetic justice? No, just becoming deeply invested in what mentor I had lost....
Success can be bittersweet.
Fast forward fifteen years later:
I perform weekly selling my products at large events--and I know a new offering is "commercial" when someone asks "what album is that song on?" and they want to buy it. Frankly, we are all communicators, and if we do it in a way where a customer wants to pay money for it, then that work is successful in its delivery and message. I never put anything out that doesn't pass that simple test that I call the "road test". It has given me the ability to know what my patrons want, and to get my own songs placed on television and on the charts. I have also had and still have the help (and brutal critiques) from some of the greatest writers in the business here in Nashville who keep me honest and humble as a successful indie. My craft is still in its infancy, and I always welcome input. But most importantly I still stay honest when I write. They tell you "write about what you know". The audience knows when it's YOUR story. And that's what sells, in the end. YOU!
I think somewhere in heaven my late husband is smiling
Hi Derek
When I write a new tune, I record it and live with it for a while as I do self criticism.
If I want an honest opinion from my colleagues, I'll upload it to a site like mixposure.com, where fellow musicicans will give an honest critique of it, pointing ot what they like or don't like....but in the end, I decide whether it's a keeper or not and try it at live shows to judge audience reaction.
first of all dont play anything for anyone. as a writer an artist you should satisfy yourself. the object is to please yourself first.the process of writing songs is such a personal thing.to sit in a song writing class and have a bunch of god know who's tearing apart a song i wrote would be death to all.the last thing one needs especialy young writers is to have anyone tell you your songwriting is bad. what would they know to begin with.just imagine anyone having a go at john lennon after he wrote strawberry fields for ever or lucy in the sky. oh john its to spaced out know one will understand!jesus christ. song writing class.who invented that idea? imagine me asking my friend terry reid,"terry did you and steve marriot,take song wrting class to write your classic songs? the answer would be ,"chico f... off mate.so how i do it ,feel it get inspired and write from your heart and soul. play it to everyone when your finished. opinions and letting people put there 2 cents in is the kiss of death.hope that helps all you people who want to write songs. and gives you an insight on the concept of there are no rules,just do it. love chico rey
Derek,
While I'm working with a well-known producer on my new songs today, it's always good to get more feedback from folks you respect and from the target market/audience.
I've sent demo CDs to radio DJs that already play my music with some results, but they are so busy to really give detailed responses.
I've been thinking about holding a blind listening party to get more feedback.
Ciao!
Francesco - The Jazz Whistler
I work with a coach named Eric Rathgeber. I email him mp3's and he gives me feedback over the phone and by email. It's tough but I'm growing very quickly as a writer.
I think this approach is more effective than polling or soliciting multiple opinions. Find one ear you trust and bounce ideas off that ear. If you poll a group, you're bound to seek out the opinions you want to hear instead of the challenging ones that will make you a better writer.
I just try to play my songs in front of different people in appropriate settings. If they are great, people will let you know. They will go out of their way to tell you they like it, and why they like it.
Most of the time, I get no feedback at all. I assume this means these songs are something less than great, but not necessarily bad.
The common thread is that about ten percent of my songs get unsolicited good commentary, and it is always the same songs that totally different people seem to like.
You can work and work to try and make a mediocre song good, but I think its an uphill battle. I think most song writers are better off simply moving to the next song. With this approach, it may take 100 songs to create a great album, but in the process you will have created about 10 great songs and 90 filler songs, all of which may be useful in different contexts.
Another approach is to agonize over something that might just be hopeless.
Some photographers will wait hours sitting in the same place for the perfect shot. Others spend all day shooting hundreds of pictures with the hope of getting that one perfect shot.
To me, its more satisfying and rewarding to use the shotgun approach. Your listeners will let you know if you are on to something, and you do not even have to ask. In the end, however, its all a matter of personal choice.
EADS
I didn't read all 881 comments (what an amazing response!) but I noticed one person said garageband.com. It's great unbiased feedback, although not always thoughtful. You can really tell what songs are good enough to work on, and which ones you could maybe toss. Especially if your own opinion is borderline, it can be a deciding factor as to whether it makes the album.
Wow, there are many comments here, this one might just get lost, but a couple pointers none the less.
- If seeking an opinion, make sure the song is complete or at least the draft is complete and play the whole song to the critic of your choice, there is nothing worse than someone playing a little piece of a song and often the performance can make or break a song.
- I like to trust my gut, sometimes even more than opinions and I believe you know very early in the writing phase whether or not you have a hit.
- Lastly careful to get to many opinions, 2 or 3 trusty ones will do. And of course the best critic is an audience...
The first song i wrote in 1982 i played to my Mother and she liked it, then i started to play some other songs in the groups i was in, much later i sent some to ISA and their response was good too, so i got them to record some of my songs at their studio using their singers, those songs are now on cdbaby and other download sites.
Good question, Derek!
But it's a triky one...
It makes me ask other questions?
What does really mean "improving a song"?
Is it changing it in order to turn it simmilar to a thousand already made hits???
Like someone said here, "Someone’s trash is someone else’s treasure".
In the other hand, at least in my case, it works better asking for feedback for example on MySpace.
People who know you in person, tend to give you unacurate feedback.
Some love everything you do no mather what.
Others will always think you will never be good enough just because you live next door!
Thanks for always making me ask myself questions!!!
All the best,
Nuno
I HAVE BEEN WRITING FOR TWO YEARS. I HAVE FINISHED TO CDS. I KNOW THIS IS ABOUT SONG WRITING ,BUT I AM SUCK. I AM TRYING TO GET BACK ON THE ROAD IN EUROPE AND I HAVE NO CONTACTS BECAUE I HAD BEEN AWAY TO LONG....SO HELP ME OUT.
P.S. ABOUT WRITING I THINK SOME SONG ARE A HIT AND SOME MAY JUST BE A MESSAGE THAT NEEDS TO BEEN EXPRESSED. WHAT IS A GOOD SONG AND WHAT IS A GREAT. THE AUDIENCE MAKES THAT CHOICE.
I've always wondered how others handle this myself, so thanks Derek for bringing this into the spotlight.
I usually send off a rough recording of the song to a small, select group of friends for brutally honest feedback. The song is always 90-95% complete at this stage, and my friends reactions will determine whether I do one of three things;
A.keep and polish for final recording
B.Rearrange/Try different feels, etc.
C.Drop it and start over. (sometimes I will recycle parts of the track for future use.)
I usually don’t offer up songs for anyone to hear while I’m still in the process of composing (unless I’m working in a band) because I feel that it ceases to be my song.
Good question, Derek,
And a lot of great comments.
I'm no different than most.
On to the next question,
"What do you do with the SONG comments you receive?"
You can't really please everyone.
What some like, others find troublesome. So you have to follow your own internal instincts.
Even hits can contain a wart, it's what makes us human.
That's my rant, and I'm stickin' to it.
Cheers
My main source of song evaluation is simply plays on myspace, unpopular tracks just don't get played to the end...thus counting as a play, my selection of myspace friends is nearly all Heavy Metal/Rock & I put an electric folk track I did on there for 3 weeks & it didn't register even one play, on the other hand my recent Metal track..."Vampyra" has been on myspace for about a month & has over 600 plays, you can't argue with that!
http://www.myspace.com/roystonelink
http://www.roystone.com
Honestly I think I myself am the most critical when it comes to my own productions. I honestly don't care what anybody think as long as I'm not satisfied myself.
I do not believe in having someone tearing it apart an analyzing it, that would be too mechanical and the soul of the whole composition is gone.
I also have to say that to me, music is art. It's about necessity to create, but of course, when someone likes your art, it makes you happy. For me, the most important thing is not to force it and strangely enough, I found that inspiration is often stronger when there has been a lack of feedback.
That said, I usually play it to friends who know the music I am into and I also try out stuff when performing or Djing, but it doesn't' change my own feeling about it. At the end, it's personal taste that matters and I am lucky that there are people out there who share the same taste.
Robert.
I would no sooner ask for feedback about a song of mine than I would ask for an opinion about a child of mine ('your child needs cosmetic surgery' - what would be the point of that?).
Songs, like children, are to be embraced, cherished and loved for what they are, not graded, judged and 'improved' (this is why so many American kids are being forcibly drugged).
I trust the infinite intelligence of the universe to write my songs, and the opinions of people, including 'experts' (LOL) is of no interest, it would only dampen my joy (no thanks).
In the last few months, I've played 'songs-in-progress' for 3 musician friends who are accomplished and acclaimed singers. Two of the 3 are also superb songwriters. One of the 3 has given excellent feedback and paid vocal lessons; and, I realize he is coming from an earlier genre/era in song. Accordingly, I have taken what I liked and left the rest. The other 2 singer/songwriters have also given me astute feedback = support + critique. I am taking their suggestions and polishing my songs including lyrics, vocal delivery, and overall structure. I am much happier and skillful with my song-crafting process as a result.
It's been my experience that most writers produce their material following some inner mystic calling, believing that they know what's best for their song. If you remove the essence of the song itself, and only focus on the production I can see that opinions and critiques would be of genuine help, but remember, production varies from targeted media.
I guess what I'm trying to convey is; when we (I) finish a song and play it for anyone we feel that everything that was produced on it was for a real good reason and to the best of our abilities.
I do give my material to a handful of friends, but none of them have any musical backgrounds. They accept it as a gift, from someone who does what they can not; write music.
Since I write and produce as a solo artist, I can complete my songs to my satisfaction. If I can move just one person with my material, then I've done my job.
Everyone that reads the same book, may not agree on what the book was about, but for sure the writer does. The same hold true for music.
Just my opinion.
Chazz deMeyer
I sometimes get 3 or 4 new demos together with guitar and vox and play them for the best music fans/writers I know and see which ones they like best and what aspects they like so that takes the heat off of them rejecting one - just focus on the good stuff and leave the others for later edits/re-writes - it's easier on everyone that way.
First, I write a sond that I like. If I dont like it, how can I expect sopme one elst to? Then, I play it for my band to get their input/feedback. Regardless or their comments though, if I feel like I have a streong song, I start playing it out for the fans to see what their response is. Some times it take a little while for them to warm up to it so need to be patient if you really believe in the song. One song of mine that took a little while for people to warm up with just won song of the year at a radio station in Cleveland.
Songs are all subjective. A reviewer at NSAI might hate a song that I get more request for than any other song I do. The thing is, KEEP WRITING!!!!!!!!!
I usually ask friends to give me an honest fed back on my songs and people i dont know also a good way is to get a local magazine review the trouble for people like me is i write and record but dont play live it seems where i live i cant get anyone interested this will help your carrer more than anything you just cant beat playing live to get known
Hello Derek, I hope you're doing find. I reed all your advices on cdbaby.com and I thank you for all this work you made. You surely gave me strenght when I was so & so... Well...To know if a song is good, I have to remember it on the morning and get invaded. Then I play it and play it until I forget I am the author. The more pleasure I have with, the better is the song. There is like an evidence with good songs, a real flow of inspiration and it sounds direct. Then of course my children...If they unconsciously sing the song I win...and the public during concerts...I Have composed 40 originals Blues and of course I think there are all good.
My best, take care
I play them live and check the audience response through the song for strong parts and where I'm losing them. But it's true that feedback can be simply confusing since one man's trash is another man's treasure.
To be honest, I never ask for feedback and I am not sure if I ever did. I don't think I am too good for feedback and I know everyone doesn't like what I do. I can say that I pay attention to the audience by how they respond or move to a song.
Wenso
I've been writing for a livin' since 1976 so I pretty much know when to rewrite, but I still run a song by the publisher, or another writer with experience. Remember this guys, you have it down in what ever version, tape, cd's digital whatever you sing your song into. You are not going to loose it. Nothing wrong with trying to make it better. Never be adverse to re-writing.
This is the best advice I can give anyone.
Typically my wife hears it first, then my two closet honest friends, then I play it out for crowd reaction, if all is well there, I give it a shot on ourstage.com. I have let producers and song pluggers give their take on it before, but the first part is my typical avenue. I write a lot of songs that no one hears because I know it sucks when I'm done listening to it so only the ones I think have potential are heard by anyone but me.
I tend to be extremely critical with myself through the entire process. I work with a singer whom will throw suggestions into the mix, but most often I firmly grasp the track until it's completion without much feedback. I than turn to criticism in the recording process for arrangement ideas and/or other instrumentation. To me, feedback plays a part only when I am working with someone else and the writing is 50/50. If it is just me, I roll with my own gut instincts; however that sounds.
I've found TAXI to be a great source of critique. Their talented staff consists of people with tons of experience in the music industry (look at the TAXI website to get an idea).
The best part is, they have no idea who you are. They are not your friends or family who love you and your songs no matter what. They are paid for their experience in the music industry, and their honesty, which is sometimes brutal and most times beneficial.
It's a win-win, because when you submit a new song, besides getting an in-depth critique, you also have the potential to get your song forwarded to opportunities for TV/movie/video game placement and much more.
Aside from TAXI, if our band is on set break at a gig, and someone comes up and comments on a specific song they really enjoyed, that is great feedback. How often have you praised a band for "sounding awesome" or "tight" or whatever? Sure it's a nice ego inflator, but if someone recalls a specific song or moment, that is worth far more than any generic praise.
I can't speak for every songwriter out there, but personally I strive to write songs that can affect people in one way or another.
play it for friends who's opinion i respect and also play it live in low pressure situations.
I would try to put as much of my inspiration down by recording what I feel, and, mix the song on a disc with songs by other artists and ask for comments by strangers without divulging that it is my song to get unbiased comments.
Most times I just ask for comments from friends and artists who I work for as a producer.
I used to play stuff for my wife. Now I rarely do. She is tougher than a Nashville publisher. When I do play her something, I make sure I have tweaked it until there's nothing left. I use NSAI's song evaluation service - you get a number of free evaluations with your yearly membership. I play songs for other hit writers (when I can and sparingly), and for the rep at ASCAP.
If I have something new that is not quite done, I might play it for a songwriter friend or two to see if there's anything glaringly obvious that I am missing.
I play songs out to see the reaction, but here in Nashville, everyone is a songwriter and it's hard to even get their attention much less impress them.
Songwriting is easy. Good songwriting is a craft that can be learned. Great songwriting is elusive. It's about re-writing, getting feedback, playing it out, re-writing, re-writing. (I am not saying I am great, I am just trying hard).
Then I play it for a publisher and they usually pass.
you MUST love songwriting to keep doing it. Every time you write one, you are opening yourself up to strangers and their comments and opinions. You have to grow a thick skin. Keep writing.
We record a demo and then play the song for a couple of selected friends.
All the best
Bersalieri
1. I have a group of captive people during the day (day job co-workers), I give them a CDr of new material, several of them at once, get feedback in a day or two. I give them 2 to 9 tracks at once to review. Some keep my CDrs for their kids to listen to or because they like the tracks. Some are not 100% complete anyway.
2. I am a member of many Yahoo groups, most music or instruments used to make the music. I pop up a web link for listens.
3. http://www.gamemusicdepot.com , that site is set up for game developers to listen to, Film/TV etc. Some comments from works are given there. Many others use that site too.
4. MySpace or other social places.
5. Net radio and over the air radio. Some allow comments back live while they listen to the tracks or email is sent back.
6. Local music types who might be interested or have asked to hear.
I know a few who use Taxi, paid reviews really, to get a more pro comment back.
What I find is how and who you give your material too, if they are into that style of music, more a consideration than a massive "here it is, listen and comment back" more something useful than just reviews from those who are not into that style.
dale
Inquisitor Betrayer
I perform the tune and wait for responses....private and public gigs.
When I was a member of GMIA, located in Atlanta GA, I would go to their songwriter meetings. That organization was great for everyone. Now, I write with some musicians who have trusted me enough to write the lyrics without coming back to them. Some may choose, if we are writing the song together, to go back and forth with lyrical changes. Sometimes the music is sent to me. If I feel good about the music I start writing. I learned from GMIA that you should write the whole song first. Afterward, re-write, re-write, and re-write. Personally I need to become a member of GMIA again to attend their meetings. I learned so much from GMIA members.
Open Mic. night. Kalamazoo has several bars that host open mic nights, and these have been the best places for me to try out new songs. There are always a good number of other musicians there, either having finished performing, or waiting. I figure if I can get these folks to say something good about a new song I did, it shouldn't need too much revision. But as a songwriter, I'm pretty much tweaking my songs all the time anyway. When it comes to critiques, we're always hardest on ourselves.
I'd like to answer this comment:
"TO THOSE THAT SAY THEY DON’T SEEK FEEDBACK:
Does that mean your songs can not be improved?
Or that they can be improved, but only you know how to improve it?
Or that others might have great suggestions for improvements, but you just don’t want to hear it?"
First, there's always room for improvement. As to whether or not only I know how to improve it, that depends on who else has the suggestion and the overall value of the suggestion itself. I am currently working with another songwriter via email, collaborating of a few songs. I think its important to work with others since it changes your point of view somewhat and improves your own songwriting abilities.
As far as to if I want to hear suggestions from others, that took depends on the validity of the comment. When someone asks me for advice, I give them my honest opinion (this can be dangerous, but I'll save that story for another discussion). However, I have found that most of the unsolicited comments come from those who don't really know what they're talking about or just don't get the musical gist of what I'm trying to do. For these people, no, I'm not interested in what they have to say.
The music is subjective regardless of who the responding source is. When I was with the majors it was the pencil necks. Mostly legal or yuppies with fresh B.A's doing the demographic thing regardless of the work. Miles told me about music critics but I won't go into that LOL. So I usually send the piece to cats I've known for years so I can get both ends. technical and artistic feedback. Folks usually give feedback based on their own taste. Suits give u feedback on what sells. Magazines if they like u. Promoters is they can get paid. Publishers if it can get advertisers. Yet the soul never lies. DH
Derek,
My partner and I usually ask our studio musicians, our wife's, our friends, our kids, and yes sometimes outside marketing people who have that straight forward business approach.
We usually get some great feedback and usually take most of all the advice into consideration at one time or another.
It is really interesting to get feedback from a vast number of people. Years ago we never wanted to play our music for anyone but in recent years we really draw inspiration from people and their reactions to our music.
Dan
Advice on your creation is hard to hear. It need's to be someone who's had success in your field.
I have a few guys I let hear my stuff.
But mostly I listen to my heart, and TOMMY MAC @ FM STUDIOS, emeryville. He know's me, and how to TALK to me. That way I hear what he's saying, and not the HATING OF MY WORK!! That's the big thing getting out of your own way.
We hear our own songs from creation, over, and over again. That makes it hard to hear things objectively.
My songs are like my KID's. I want to see them all suceed!!
Mike Meezy
We have Works In Progress events where songwriters get together as a peer group to give constructive criticism. If one person has a problem understanding a part of your song it could be just their issue. If you hear the same feedback from everyone then you probably need to rewrite the song to make it more clear.
Ultimately you know when your song is a hit. Or if you don't need it to be a hit, you will know if it's good while you are writing it. After I'm done I have 3 people I play it for: My mom, brother and boyfriend - each of whom have an ear and are the only people I trust to be honest. But again, they are usually just reaffirming what I already know.
I record a demo and then send it to the musicians who will later record the definitive version of the song. They are the best people to evaluate the work they have to collaborate to.
I've been writing for 20 years or so, I write on an accoustic, and don't ask nobody for feedback. After all this time I know what feels right or not. I know when I've got a good song ... if it don't feel right it's trashed. In the past I've tried to make a average songs sound good but there's just something in their make up that can't be fixed... but what you learn doing this can be used later.. it's valuable experience. I write/finish the song and when I give it to the band to play, often we will tweak the arrangement. However lyrics can be very organic and sometimes some songs are never "finished".
Songwriting is very subjective, what you love someone else may hate. Hit songs are "good" because they get airplay and sell lots of records?? sometimes yes... mostly not.
I've never been to a songwriting workshop, I think it may be an interesting experience.... if just that, but I wouldn't be closed to it.
keep independent that's what I say...
cheersbeers
www.simonchainsaw.com
www.myspace.com/simonchainsaw
I do very little. I have a solid music education business, so I don't worry about making a serious living from performing. Therefore, I generally just write what I want to hear. If other people dig it, great. If not, that's okay too.
I'm my worst critic. I don't usually expose anyone to my songs until they're finished. I'll tweak the lyrics many times before I'm happy. I may try it out on my ChoirGirlz when they come to rehearse, and I'll see what their reaction is. Often I'll play a new song at an open mic show, and judge the audience's reaction - whether the new song stops the gabbers from gabbing, or whether it makes them laugh. I've learned a lot about the power (or lack thereof) of my songs from those situations.
I don't look for feedback from anyone really - who cares? I write songs for myself, and if I like them, who cares what anyone else thinks? That's a lot of self-importance to carry around. I personally see songwriting (or any creative process) as being an act of opening to the energy that's out there for all of us, and letting it flow thru me. THerfore all I have done is process it, write it down, etc. Very seldom do I make any major changes, and if I do it's still not a thought process. at least not on the good ones;)
peace.
When you're writing songs
follow your feelings,let it
flow. When it comes time to
sell them all you can do is
raise them up the flagpole
and see who salutes.
You can never tell what the next hit is going to be.Don't change what you did because someone
doesn't like a particular phrase.Write from your honest
feelings put them out there and
you'll find an audience.
Hi Derek,
I generally live with a song for a long time: Over the years, I have realized that “time” is my greatest collaborator, and experience has taught me that editing oneself is a most valuable tool. After changes and re-writes, when I feel reasonably confident that my idea is strong and solid enough to pass my own scrutiny, I will play it to someone whose ears I truly trust and who isn’t afraid to criticize my work – that is my manager of the last 24 years, Diane Poncher.
It is important to build a relationship with someone who is a fan of your creativity and artistry, and who understands your goals, BUT who ultimately puts the “song” first. As songwriters, we become a little temperamental regarding our “muse”, so it is crucial to respect and acknowledge the one you’ve chosen for your feedback. That said, stay true to what your gut feelings tell you, for these instinctive feelings are what uniquely make YOU the songwriter.
-- Martin Page
Interesting posts! Yes I find strangers when you play live will come up to tell you which songs they like. Put out coasters that ask their faves and you will get good comments.
-i think most are right when they say you usually know in your gut if its good- especially when people tell you they're singing it in the shower! Then you know you have your hook. Also good to have fresh ears when listening back!
If your song doesn't hit you, there is little point in asking for feedback. Songwriting is an art, not a science in my opinion. There is something spiritual and inspiring that enters the process. It is something personal and self rewarding. When its done there is a sense of fulfilment;thats your feedback. If you feel good about your songs, chances are everybody else will. You don't have to be famous to write great songs, just as much as you dont have to be a five star chef to make a great dish. Making your song sell is a different story. It depends on who you know in the music biz and if they think your song has that money making sound?
i say: don't try to turn the mysterious/non verbal into words. most people don't have the understanding or skills to help you. sing out from in, don't look in from out.
1) paid professional assesment of samples for a) artistic value and b) commercial appeal - taken with some caution since all evaluators have biases
2) audience feedback
3) producer comment based on the recording studio being a no holds barred place for honesty
4) does it move me
If I really want feedback? I'll play it for people but leave a separate recorder going on then leave the room, and when everyone leaves I can play back what they really thought.
I play it for my kids (9 & 10 )
If they like it ... Dance or sing a part of it, it's good
If they remember it the next, without hearing it agian, it goes on my CD.
Well, not to be a snob, but most people don't get the whole songwriting/production thing at all, so I am usually wasting my time trying to get feedback until the song is done. I don't know how many times I have played a song for someone and usually they have no imagination so giving them a taste of a song when it is in the writing or production phase, since most of my music is written for electric, not acuostic, has been a waste of energy. I like to trust my instincts and go with my idea. Every time someone has a "suggestion", it has been mostly a lousy one. I have tried to co-write with many people but they don't seem to be able to "share" ideas. Most songwriters or wanna-be's are trying to write CMT songs or Drop D radio pop punk and that is just not what I am doing at all.
I play it for my band, who will help me arrange it. They are pretty honest and offer good suggestions. I play it at jam sessions. If a musician I respect likes it, that's good. And the ultimate test is the talking crowd one. If the crowd stops talking, that's also good.
I usually workshop it first with my NSAI chapter. After a rewrite or two, I then send it to NSAI in Nashville for a pro review.
If I can get my band to play and like something that I have written, usually the song has some merit. The drawback is, music that doesn't suit the taste or the ability level of the band gets tossed out.
Finding collaborators is very difficult, especially ones that match your taste and have talent that you respect. Lennon and McCartney had the benefit of having a relatively small range of pop acts to dig on. These days, it's nearly impossible to find folks who are talented and share similar music, because the stars are widely spread in the pop universe.
Yes somethin that generally works for me is playing the track to some
one completely impartial such as
an old person or even a young kid of around 7- 14years old.
And why you might ask?It's simple, if u want the truth without taking the critique too personally then these type of people will most def-
initely help to soften the blow!!
I generally just write the song and if I am happy with it, it's done. I'm not that interested in how other folks would do it. They aren't me and have a different set of emotions,history, experiences etc. So they can't really help much. I know this is probably contrary to this blog but i thought I would just toss that in. Peace.
REAL SONGCONTESTS,HAVE BEEN A LONNNNG TIME COMING. BE GREAT TO HAVE SONGWRITING APPRECIATED FOR WHAT IT IS. YOU GOT MY VOTE AND SUPPORT. WHY SHOULD ARTISTS HAVE TO PAY TO HAVE PEOPLE LISTEN TO THEIR WORK?? IT'S LIKE A TAILOR PAYING A POTENTIAL CUSTOMER TO WEAR THEIR SUIT?? AND TAILORS ONLY DO THAT FOR CELEBRITY TYPES, AND THE AFFLUENT AND INFLUENTIAL TYPES, WHO ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN AFFORD TO PAY IN THE FIRST PLACE ! IT'S ALL A LOAD OF COCK AND BULL REALLY. MODERN MEDIA DAHRLING BEHAVIOUR. POWER TO YOUR ELBOWS ALL WHO HAVE GIVEN OF THEMSELVES AND THEIR TIME TO EXPRESS THEIR SLICE OF MUSICAL SOUL TO OTHERS WHO MAY BE LIFTED OR ENRICHED BY IT. EVEN RUBBISH SONGS ARE BETTER THAN NO SONG AT ALL. I THINK EVERY ADULT SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED TO WRITE AT LEAST ONE ORIGINAL SONG IN THEIR LIFETIME. CRITICAL TYPES WOULD FIND IT'S NOT AS EASY AS IT LOOKS, AND CREATIVE TYPES MIGHT DISCOVER IT'S NOT AS HARD AS IT AT FIRST APPEARS
AS FAR AS SONG MERIT GAUGING IS CONCERNED. THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN GIVE YOU AN ACCEPTABLE CRITIQUE ON YOUR SONG IS YOURSELF REALLY AT THE END OF THE DAY, IF YOU LIKE AND BELIEVE IN YOUR WORK, IT'S MORE LIKELY THAT OTHERS WILL TAKE TO IT
There are different kinds of feedback, and it's crucial to know which I need/want.
1) To get a sense of commercial viability, I play it for my ASCAP rep and my songplugger (who I don't pay, so he doesn't HAVE to like anything). They don't always agree, but both really know the market, as well as my strengths. If one of them is gung-ho, that's good enough. Also, if you play it live and the audience shuts up and listens or dances or cheers or sings along (or NOT), that's powerful feedback re commercial potential.
2) To get a sense of its allover strength, I ask other writers who write as well or better than I do, and have had some success AND I often will ask specific Qs, like "Does XX work? Is it a strong hook? Does it move you?"
3) And sometimes it's ESSENTIAL to get positive feedback, your artist's soul is dying or you're broke or broken-hearted, and you need an "atta-girl" (or boy). I play it for my most supportive friends and ask for "what works". No shame in that.
4) To know if the song is universal/understandable/contemporary, I play it for civilians. Non-songwriters. My kids, friends, husband.
5) Finally, I have paid for pleasure...the pleasure of expert critique, choosing mentors who have first demonstrated that they can improve others' work in specific ways through their observations. They don't have to like the song, as long as I realize they're RIGHT, and especially if they can suggest improvements. Craig Bickhardt, Jason Blume, Steve Seskin, Barbara Cloyd come to mind.
I've had cuts and songs on TV, but if somebody says something that makes my song better, great! And finally, the REAL power of feedback is in the future songs that you write better as a result of the feedback helping you to learn something more about songwriting.
PS If you want feedback, DON'T first tell the person what the song is "about." If they don't get what you're trying to express, THAT's important feedback.
I forgot to add that it's also useful to record and listen to the song without gtr/kbd/tracks, if you are writing a song that has some melody to it. Especially with uptempos, some writers sing the path of least resistance, and let the groove do all the work to animate a boring, limited melody. Listening to a new song naked (without harmony/rhythm underneath it) will let you know if it's a strong/catchy/interesting melody your public will be want to singing bits of...
When I create a song the feedback I depend upon is that from the other players who wish to contribute by offering to record with me. as I don't expect any compensation for our efforts we are satisfied with knowing we created art for the sake of are own enjoyment.
I create music that is for music as medicine, so I try it on groups to see what response I get. If it elicits a response that was the intention of the music, then I know I'm on track.
I don't ask for feedback while I'm writing a song. I do pay attention to how audiences react to my songs when I play them at gigs. That is the most accurate feedback I know of.
if i really want feedback on a song i'm writing i'll crank the volume of my amp, lean my guitar over it and sort of hover around.
that sort of feedback works for me.
I have a friend who is a phenomenal songwriter in her own right, and usually I play them for her before I play them out. Also, audience response is a great barometer for the quality of a song.
I wrote an original for my 1st Vocal CD, due
to the request of my trumpeter son, Brian
Lynch's request that I write one. It is called,
"Except In Memory" He gave it high marks, so
I started writing others. Since I have a strong
background in the Language Arts ( having taught it in Univ. to intern teachers), I do
have vocabulary expression assets.
Many of my original songs reflect the "ups and downs" of my life since 1994. I have
w orked with several different pianists and
bands, and some of the pianists have helped
arrange my originals.- Major in this, is my
pianist for the past 14 years ( some of which
he was gone on tour.) Nevertheless he is
my sounding board, and collaborator, and
arranger for most of my originals. He has
helped me to "do surgery on" some that
were too long, or not enough, in form. W e
do help each other, and I have written lyrics
for several of his originals.
I simply do not have time to read all your
comments here, but I do think it is a good
idea to do this kind of sharing, and reinforc-
ing. You are doing a considerable service to
songwriters who perform, whenever they
do.----Thanks, Marti Lynch, Vocalist /
Songwriter/ Recording Artist
Whenever possible I will take my songs into workshops. But there aren't many of those here in Santa Cruz.I also play my songs to my songwriter friends to get their input, as well as guaging the reception of songs when I play a gig. And, of course, most importantly, I need to get my wife's approval before it leaves the house.
Hi Derek and thanks for the forum.
Feedback............
1. All your friends are going to say that it's great.
2. Some of your enemies are going to say that it's great.
3. Because EVERYBODY'S taste in music is different (thank God) you are obviously going to get a 50/50 split.
Feedback..........
well I write and record a song that I'M HAPPY WITH and really to me....that is all that matters.
Cheers
Arnie
www.arnioe.com
If i think a new song is commercially viable i make a good work tape of it and go out and start pitching the sucker. If i get some good response i demo it. Ironically, i've had more songs cut from just a work tape. Aside from that some of the songs I'm most proud of will likely never get covered by anyone but me.
I don't seek feedback. Everyone has their own idea on what makes a great song. The songs that are the ones winning competitions are the ones that put me to sleep. In the end, my music is about pleasing me and letting me sing what I want to sing. If I was a professional songwriter (making my entire living from songwriting), I might be interested in feedback, and I'd probably take feedback as whether I was hired for the next job. Songwriting like that is formulaic and it's difficult to go wrong. Not my bag though. As far as people buying my music and me buying theirs, it's not about the song. It's about the hype, the feel, the marketing, the performance, the musicianship. A crap song can be turned into something magical. It's all subjective anyway.
I also think people have forgotten how to feel. The music I've been hearing on tv and radio which are apparently "great songs" just leaves me cold. A song that's chosen for such doesn't mean it's a great song. It just means that it's commercially viable. It feeds the lowest common denominator's desire for simple radio fodder. Creativity is only limited by skill or lack thereof.
all Fezz music is created live in one take with no writing, discussion, or even looking to see what the other players are playing. Every time you re-play a song you wrote, you lose probably the most important element--original feeling. Life happens in real time--sitting in a room of song writers is like sitting in a room of other women critiquing your love making performance--it's absurd. To hear some 100% pure unadulterated straight from the heart and muse songs--> TheFezz.com
I play my finished or nearly finished songs for a dear friend and fellow musician. He's been in the game for a while and I know he'll give me a brutally honest and objective opinion. If he says it's good , then I'm happy.
Hello Derek :o) I like it so !
Usually I propose hearing song people near to me as girlfriend, friends and musicians friend. I listen what they tell me about new
song and usually I take the better
to improve my work.
Also I have a mentor .. He's not a musician but is a great listener for
many genres and help me so much.
I think it could be just one direction but we need to understand
what's happened out of our circle.
Internet is a great possibility
to show the tunes to many people we can.
Peace
Max
Here's a blog post about a cool idea - live songwriting via video & chat:
Rise and Shine TV
Sadly this isn't running at the moment but I can say from experience that it's a great thing to be involved in.
Now, a site where something like this could run for multiple users, setting up private "rooms" of collaborators would be fantastic...!
Even a non-live version where mp3s and videos could be easily posted, 12-seconds/Seesmic style, would be great. Audio could be shared, samples could be uploaded...
Hell I think I'll do it myself !
Ian
I believe that stylistic or genre types will dictate, to an extent, how you go about showing others your work. If you're a singer songwiter, then you can play your song to someone face to face. As a DJ / Producer working in the digital realm, I'll export a mix or rough draft as a 16bit 44.1kz wav file, add it to a 'Rough Drafts' playlist, and listen to it constantly. Sometimes I'll just hit random, and see how it compares to some of my favourite songs. Also, sometimes I'll burn a CD to play in the car, checking for things that jump out in the mix.
Where possible, I try NOT to let people hear unfinished songs, as a first impression by someone who hasn't heard you before may not be favourable. They won't know it's in the embryo stage.
Also, I'll drop an almost finished tune in a live mix where it fits, and see if people stay on the floor. If someone also asks about the tune, great! When you're being honest with yourself, you know when something's wrong, just maybe not what you have to do to fix it. I'm not convinced that friends are the right way to get criticism, as often responses can be vague when it comes to specifics about what's good or bad. As well, some musicians base their opinion on their particular genre type, or what they think they'd do. An Indie Rock singer who is a friend of mine keeps offering to sing on my stuff, but he's not remotely compatible to my style, so his opinion of my music isn't valid to me, as he also hasn't heard the music I'm influenced by.
Have faith in yourself, but try to be honest too.
B-Dub
Great question Derek. I find that friends and family are the worst to send your music to - most have an agenda. I agree with everyone who plays new songs at shows as that is what we used to do and it worked out pretty well. As I only record now and don't play out I find the best approach is through internet radio and podcasts. Itunes is the best indicator as it lists in order the most popular songs and this in turn helps with writing.
If you care too much what other people think, you don't have confidence in yourself. As one person posted, music is subjective "one man's garbage is another man's gold".
How do I know a song is done? When I feel confident about it. When there's a point of grab in the playing of it, like when you're driving a stick shift & you feel that point of grab & know when to change gears.
That said, one needs to find a method & a discipline of working that doesn't box you in.
A few things that help me in the writing process are a) don't write your diary. You're "feelings" are there, but writing about "how you feel" is not enough to make it resonate. b) EDIT EDIT EDIT--not every fleeting thought is a pearl, if a line doesn't work in one song, it might work in another on down the road. By editing you will keep things simple & as Woody Guthrie once said, "a song with more than 3 chords is simply showing off"
To close, what is it Dylan once said? "Steal a little & they call you a theif, steal a lot & they call you a genius"? In other words, we all have our musical influences, but don't mimic them, let them pass through your own individuality & something unique will occur.
That is a good question, Derek. Usually, when someone in the band brings a song idea and presents it to the rest of us, they do so with the knowledge that eveyone in the band is going to fold, spindle, and mutilate the thing before it comes out as a finished product! All of us pretty much come up with different ideas to try, and either keep or discard. However, the primary songwriter has veto power, if he feels strongly enough about a part of the song he wants done a certain way, the rest of us respect that. By the time the song is played in front of an audience, it is a finished product. www.myspace.com/ozknozz
Songs are like paintings some finish off quick and some take years...I just keep going back & touching up till i feel they are ready...are they ever ready? I have 2 draw a line when 2 move on..
then I don't care what anyone thinks...I run them by friends and respected music people...i do miss the old school workshops..
I think over-reliance on feedback can be dangerous. Sure, if you're just starting out feedback is great - but the wrong kind of feedback, or 'too-early' feedback, or clueless feedback can kill the creative process.
It's a big 'market' out there - for every person that hates your song because it doesn't sound like (insert their favorite band here), there might be a smaller number of people who freaking LOVE your song. To me it's more important to find your audience - for what you do really well - than to worry about 'feedback' in general and end up stifling your uniqueness.
Playing live (if you do that at all) is pretty critical though - if you're going to step in front of a live audience the WHOLE DEAL changes - you have to capture their attention. You have to entertain without pandering. You probably should be visually interesting. And if you fail, you'll know immediately as the audience ignores you.
So - feedback on recording and feedback on live performance are very different in my mind.
- Karl
-----------------------------------------
karl@instarmusic.com
http://www.instarmusic.com
"Excellent" - NME, UK
-----------------------------------------
First, I would like to point out two problems that I don't think other posters have brought up. I call these syndromes "creator's/performer's syndrome" and "familiarity deafness".
1. Creator's Syndrome. We tend to really love what we create, because it comes out of us. It is a part of ourselves and if we love ourselves (which we should) then we will tend to love what we create. But that does not mean that others will love it. Related to Creator's Syndrome is Performer's Syndrome. If we also perform the piece then we can get into a "grove" in which we will enjoy playing that instrument and singing that song, over and over. The listeners, however, are NOT performing the piece, so they are not getting that tactile/body-kinematic/voicing sensual feedback. If one is going to write music that OTHERS will love as much as the creator, then the creator has to, somehow, acquire the objectivity of a listener (one who did not invent the song, is not performing it and is encountering it for the first time).
2. Familiarity Deafness. I have noticed that this syndrome can be very difficult to overcome, especially during the CD production process. As you perform and re-perform a song (in one's studio), you start hearing only what you EXPECT to hear and you become less and less able to notice timing, vocal and other weaknesses. I have even had cases where, if I haven't listened to a song for several days, when I replay it I will hear a mistake at a certain point on the track but when I listen just a second time, the mistake has mysteriously disappeared -- so strong can be the effect of Familiarity Deafness. There are weaknesses that I discover only months after having released a CD. I quit listening to that CD long enough that I lost my sense of familiarity with it and that gave me a new, more objective set of ears -- only at that point do I notice those weaknesses (but now it's too late).
A good way to overcome Creator's Syndrome and Familiarity Deafness is to have other people listen to your songs and give you feedback.
However, I agree with other posters who state that it's not a good idea to elicit criticism before you consider your song nearly finished. Once you think your song is done then criticism can be very helpful because the reviewer will often give you a new perspective on your song and maybe that new perspective will make you decide that your song still requires some major changes, or just a few tweaks here and there (or no changes at all -- it's always up to you).
I started producing my own songs just a few years ago and, initially, these songs were ones I had written many years ago while in college. I loved my own songs so much that, when I produced them, I lengthened them with longer musical interludes and verses (Creator's Syndrome).
However, I have changed my mind about song length. I believe that, in general, short songs (3:30 or less) are preferable. My reasoning is: if a listener really loves your (short) song then they will play it over and over if they want to hear more of it, which reinforces their idea that your song is great. However, if the song is even just a little too long, then the listener may start to tire of the song before it is done, which will reinforce in their minds the notion that the song is not very good. so write short songs, whenever possible, and let the listeners play them over and over again when they want to hear more of it.
Also, over time, I have changed my mind also about the nature of lyrics. I used to try to make my lyrics be as much like poems as possible. Then my mother-in-law listened to some of my songs one day and said that, with songs, "less is more" and that my songs were "too wordy". I went through all of the songs on my already produced CDs and found lots of words, here and there, that I could actually cut out and that this process of word removal actually improved the songs. So I plan to release, at some future point, these reworked songs on new CDs (with a few reworked ones interspersed among the new ones -- that way an old song never has to be "trapped in stone" just because it has already been released on a CD).
I recently came upon an old book: The Craft of Lyrics Writing by Sheila Davis, 1985. She gives many strong arguments for why song lyrics should NEVER be viewed as poems. Also, I was gratified to discover that I had been, instinctively, following a lot of her advice. But I also learned some new things about how to critique one's own lyrics and thus improve them.
Sometimes, my songs will start out as music and then I will come up with an idea for the lyrics. Other times I will write a poem and then seek music to express that poem, but this process always ends up radically altering the poem as it is turned into lyrics.
While I am writing songs I tend not to listen to the music of others. A year ago I decided to not write any songs for two months and, instead, spend several hours each day listening to the songs of other hopeful artists on Sonicbids (a website where wanna-be artists post electronic press kits, most containing sample songs).
I listened to several thousand songs over those two months and noticed that the majority of the songs have serious weaknesses (they take too long to get going; go on for way too long; have weak vocals; non-tight harmonies; mediocre lyrics, not enough musical variation, etc.). After this listening experience, I went back and listened to my own, already produced CDs and decided that many of my own songs could also use improvement.
WHEN to solicit feedback is another issue. In general you have to be ready (mentally) to hear that negative feedback, otherwise it won't have a useful effect. The easiest road to self-improvement is change your own mind on your own. Having others tell you what you're not ready to hear is harder on the ego.
I'm lucky to be sharing my life with a theatre script editor, who will pull me up if I wander off the theme or get too wordy... But quite often if you're alone and stuck for feedback you can trust, the tried and trusted method works for me - record a demo version of it somewhere (even on your phone), let it sit for two weeks without going near it, and THEN give it a listen. The distance is valuable, and allows for a more cold-eyed look at the material. And don't be too destructive to yourself...
What I do is create the song, record it, and get it out as fast as possible. Once it's right, as an artist, I dont sit on the songs. I give it to everyone I can, even folks in different genres and keep it moving. Just because you don't get feedback does not mean you dont have a hit...
Hey Derek,
Great question. Jon Aldrich, (who mentioned in our classes that you were one of his very favorite students), would be proud! On that note, I myself seek out the opinion of a small number of composers and songwriters whose opinions I honestly respect. These include some Berklee professors, (most especially Pat Pattison), a select few musicians who are my friends, and others who are acquaintances whose opinions I value. I guess that it comes down to me seeking the advice of those whose music and talents I myself respect and admire (too bad Bob Dylan and Paul Simon aren't within reach)! Thanks again for creating this thought-provoking blog...PeAce, Billy Moschella, Jr.
Well, trying not to sound negative on this topic.
I once shaired on of my ideas with a player I was working with.
He was friends of a band I will not mention.
He was so excited about the Riff I wrote he asked me if he could show it to this somewhat famous
band it and if they used it we could get royalties for it.
As it turns out that band used that riff and that song went right to #1 in Canada.
Me I got the #1 Shaft.
I hated that artist who did this to me for years.
One day I woke up to a new light I could no longer hold this hatred inside.I to come to terms with what had happened.
Now althoe I'm not famous for writing it........ I am gratefull to here when it gets played. It's someting I wrote and I'm even more proud to see how far it went.
It has given me the confidance I needed to know that I can write something that big.
Even thoe I'm not credited I feel somewhat accomplished and I would gladley share my ideas again......... but.....you can bet I'll protect myself better in the future.
Alix Azoff
I will play the new song for anyone who's opinion matters to me during it's demo phase and interpret the feedback, keeping in mind the fact that many people are coming from a biased opinion. Meaning some people may be telling you what they want to hear from you based on the bands they like, which may or may not be what you're trying to go for. If you keep this in mind, you can find helpful criticism in what anyone says and still maintain your unique creative ideas.
It's good to do this before I've set the song in stone because I find that just showing it to somone else makes me see it from another perspective and get my own ideas of how to make it better.
I just watched the movie Ghost World for the first time and there is a scene where one of the characters is having her artwork critiqued in class. She had drawn a portrait of Don Knotts(I think that's who it was & it was pretty good). The teacher asked her why and she said basically she thought it was cool and there was no deeper meaning. The teacher was horrified. Another student had stuck a tampon in a teacup and told the teacher that it was a found art piece and a comment on women's issues or some bull crap but the teacher thought it was the best thing she had ever laid eyes on and praised the second student's work while looking scornfully at the first. This is what I think of having work critiqued....I so could relate to the first student since I'm also a visual artist and had something quite similar happen to me in a class critique. I create because I think it's cool and don't feel the need to invite people into my process but hey that's just me. If while I'm working on a song....it stays in my head and "forces" me to finish it and when it's done I deem it cool enough for me. I'll play it for an audience just me and my guitar. If they feel strongly enough about it to come up and tell me they like it after that's icing. I tend to craft songs for a long time (year or so & I'm so very critical of my own work) so if I keep going back to it and finish it it's a keeper.
When I want feedback on new songs I will play them for many different types of people, a wide variety of age groups and all with different tastes in music.
I will look for the one song that gets the most comments and the one consistent comment.
The consistent comments I believe are the most honest and give the best feedback.
There's no such thing as a bad song.My god! Listen to what's selling on the radio, downloads, etc. It wouldn't be wise to be sloppy, lazy,or uncommitted though.Get the damn song on the stage. Believe me, friends & fans won't be bashful about giving you their opinion.Listen to their input and it's up to you what you do with it.I submitted my latest song for a paid critique. It gave me some insights I hadn't thought of.
I play a song for a few friends. I also go to songwriting workshops sometimes. They are very useful, just like you (Derek) said!
It's hard to take, but the criticism is what helps you hone it--editing and re-editing is always the hardest part for me.
I usually record the song with my friends who are great players with open minds, ears and hearts. Then upon some listening I can determine if it needs adjustments or to be trashed. Most of my tunes eventually end up in the book. Some of them are good right away while others need to be re done several times.
Lately I rewrite and then rewrite and then rewrite and then finally after I think it's done I edit myself (even though it's painful). I then perform it a few times (or ten) for an audience, get feedback or just to see if they stop talking listen and clap after the song is done. I'm recording a track this month that I picked specifically because my audience kept mentioning it. One guy said it was his favorite song. Getting into a studio to record and demo something always clarifies the song structure for me too. I always end up cutting and editing things in recording sessions, for some reason my LARGER ears are available then..maybe it's the also very large dollar signs that are passing before my eyes every second (I guess I work best under pressure with a deadline!). My partner also has a good pair of ears I trust, he's a songwriter and guitar player too. I usually know it's pretty good if he comes running into the room and says " Hey, that's a real winner Les!"
We usually upload it when we are happy with it and see what the reaction is,if you really want to know what people think, make the track available free and the downloads you get will show you whether people like it or not.
Hey Derek !!! In response to your question, after I record a song, I usually wait about two to three days before hearing it again. I do this for the purpose of having a fresh ear towards my project. I listen to see if the original tempo of the song is really what I want or was it a tempo that I was just excited about in the creation of the product. I also listen for errors in the lead singers pitch and how acceptable I think that song will be in the ears of the listeners that it will be presented to. In my case I am critical to my Trumpet Playing. After that I get in contact with local Club DJ's (approximately 3 of them) and have them mix it in with their normal selections to see how it fits with the competition. At that point, I'm mainly checking for broadcast quality and audience response. If i feel good about it, then I master it. If not, then I go back to the studio and make the necessary changes. I hope that this helps someone.
Hi Derek ! Mostly, for me, by the time someone hears it, it is pretty much done. For me it is a private process. And when I've said everything I want to say in the song, arranged it in a way that makes me really feel productive and happy, then I share it.
My songs are uniquely my own and therefore I would lose my personal interpretation if I was constantly asking for others opinions on them before I was finished. There have been occasions in the studio when I would ask my co-producer if I needed to come up with a third verse or would it be ok to go back to the first verse again. Or, is this bridge necessary or am I dragging the song on longer than need be. I do not necessarily follow a prescribed format for songwriting which I think helps to make my sound create more of a variety and interest to more people. Working with improvisation was a big help to me. It gave me the courage to develop my own style. I've had many mentors along the way, most of whom are the artists I grew up with. Inspiration is a great teacher. If you listen very closely you can hear you own voice.
One of 2 ways, or both;
Play it for someone, live or the recording. If I feel really good about it as it happens, then I'm close. If I sweat apprehensively in any way, I'm embarrased, and it therefore, of course, sucks
I put it in a jumble with a limited number of other songs (like 10-15) by other people from any cubbyhole in the recording biz I can get my hands on. If it fits in seamlessly, or better yet, blows everything else away, it is most excellent. I especially like to include Metal, Punk, and Classical Music, usually Original Instrument Baroque, and anything on the Harmonia Mundi, or Sony Labels- esp Giancarlo Guliano, who is a freaking genius. I usually include Country and Hip Hop because the production values are usually really sly and really high.
Paul
Hi Derek! To be honest with you, I don't get feedback from people. The biggest thing for me is to come up with the concept. I become my own worst critic. If I decide it is good, I will go forward with getting it published. At this point I want to see how other people feel about it AFTER I publish it.
I learned this when I used to critique music on the radio when I was in college. I always had something negative to say. Case in point: You Are So Beautiful to Me. The singer was HORRIBLE in my world, but the singer laffed all the way to the bank on that one. There are other tunes that I hear and for the life of me I couldn't figure out why would anyone pay for that? Well, I have stopped criticising and I have started producing. What I want to learn is how to get the greatest amount of people listening to what I hear. I want my tunes in front of the world. Let them be the critics. I'm sure the playing field would be even then.
Chuck
I used to write all the parts, then record and mix the whole song myself and would never show it to anyone until I was completely happy with it myself. Then, when I finally showed it to people they would be either blown away or at least impressed at what could be achieved on a 4-track recorder. If they weren't blown away I'd look for weaknesses in the song (length, lyrics, dynamics etc) and make a mental note of it, then carry on writing new stuff.
That was a good mental exercise but I went so deep into it I started going loopy (hearing phasers on people's voices etc). So now I simply write the song on an accoustic guitar, show it to the band and together we come up with a version that gets filtered again when our producer gets his hands on it. Much more sociable and less time/life/mind consuming. The tracks's getting feedback throughout the whole process this way and shapes itself using all our opinions. We play early versions to friends to get more input then go back into the studio and make adjustments if necessary. By the time it's finished it's been through several layers of scrutiny and has reached a point where we're all happy with it.
I know it's finished when my heart tells me so. I have always found other writers to be the hardest to please, taking into account that every one has their own agenda whether they admit it or not, and that art and beauty are subjective. I trust my own creative judgement and trust that some of them will be good, some of them not so, but all of them will have been sincere efforts to do the best I could at that point in time. After the songs are out in the general public I listen to my fans when they speak to me and pay attention to every word they say about what it is they liked and why it spoke to them. Usually what they heard in the song is light years from what I may have been saying from my perspective as the artist, but they, as the listener, gleaned something unique to their personal perspectives. I find the artist-audience relationship to be very cool most of the time.
I think the song is one's own, looking for an audience. Even without their own high standards, there may still be an audience. Just depends.
But it's also a business, even changing as it is. And in that case, you would write for an audience, cater to them, include cliches or gimics they expect, and so on. Pop, but even jazz, can endure with simple 'hooks', for generations. And each takes what they think are the 'key points' of the song, and then perform it as they perform everything else in their style.
If you mean sitting around with 'critics' listening to the latest 'album', like Metallica and its 'brain trust' in the film - I don't think it helped them.
Derek,
One of the things that is wrong with music today...I call them "Song Factory's"....Where people write together in an office at a publishing company....As I see it the songs with substance and lasting ability were, or should I say are? Inspired songs, written by one person, the person that had the inspiration....Lyrics can be, Ain't or what'd, or can't, or many other contractions, and should be.... Such as Ray Charles' "What'd I Say" or Jimmy Reeds' "Ain't That Lovin' You Baby"...Proper Grammer is not what a song needs to move your soul....What about James Brown's lyrics?....Or Neil Youngs? Or The Rolling Stones? Or the Beatles? Or Jimi Hendrix?....A song factory cheapens creativity....In the past twenty years or so how many songs have been written in a song factory that make you remember the lyrics?...However, can you forget the lyrics from an inspired song that was written by one of the best writers in the world such as Bob Dylan?....I am against song factorys as you may be able to tell, in a big way. A couple of good friends may get together and come up with an inspired song but I do not think proper grammer or assembly line songs have anything I want to hear.
Thanks,
David Street
I attend a very loving,yet highly discriminating songwriters group when I'm in town, and I'm always open to everyones opinion, including my own. I also share with peers at casual get togethers, where our instruments come out sooner or later, usually sooner :0)
When I have a smaller gig, or house concert, I often ask my audience if they mind hearing a work in progress
, and I've always been met with great enthusiasm, including naming the tune. Out come my glasses and a lyric sheet, and folks really feel like they're getting on the inside of the creative process. (BTW, I only do this when I already know the tune is killer)
Steve Seskin mentioned this blog in his workshop today...and we talked a bit about it afterward.
I think that a lot of people don't value critique because they haven't had very helpful critique. But it's part of most serious artists' learning process, whether it's painters in a group critique or classical pianists at a master class.
I've been writing by just me since the very beginning. It comes natural when I have a song & melody coming up then I'd remember them, refining them in a couple of days till I think it's been naturally written with the new born joy since each of them is all my babies and I haven't placed preferences among them in first place.
As usual days I haven't really searched for commenting from listeners. Yet as I remember, many of the comments would come from listeners after a gig who would come by themselves to talk to me sharing the feeling they have about my songs and performance. And I like it this way when listeners share their thoughts by their own intuition with all sorts of adjectives which makes the songwriting become so interesting. It's like if the songwriting feels like a main dish that songwriter cook so well, the comments would feel like a chocolate dessert that makes the taste level sweetened in some way. Somehow, the main dish is good enough along the way.
Overally I still tend to write just on my own, and keep it this way till now. If I'd participate in a project of different artist and musician, I would be willing to adapt to their wish and favored style, by revising the first version I come up with, since I hope the members I collaborate with can truly feel the spakle and enjoyment from their intuitive feedback, that's a reason I would try to adapt to them and make the
ulimate presentation of the song baby as sweet as can be to the most connected member in a project, since that means a lot to them.
In my songwriting journey I've been sticking to orignal layout of my most primitive thoughts without having others involved. I store this originality in self-release album. That is a happy decision in the first phase since I love the originality of them very much. And coming for the next , I am ready to change for listening to more ideas of either commenting, reshaping, or re-versioning from collaborators if I am writing songs for an artist and collaborating with musicians.
Thanks Derek & Everyone :=) Rock on - - -
When i play out I can tell very clearly what songs are working and why.
Usually I post a rough draft on myspace and see if there's any response. The best songs usually do get some positive feedback.
But I have also noticed that people respond better to mastered tracks that unmastered ones. So that is half of it too.
Maybe the words' connotation scare people too. In many people's minds, critique=criticism and feedback=unpleasant noise.
If you asked people if they would welcome an opportunity for an astute teacher or pro songwriter to tell them what is GREAT about their song...as well as suggest where and how they might change parts of it so that the song will be better IN TERMS OF THE GOALS OF THE WRITER...
(I don't get why people resist ...it's not as if we're carving marble that can't be uncarved if we have second thoughts. You always have the option to change a song back.)
I too judged songs, for a song contest. As a first-round judge, I listened to a few hundred and all but 3 were ordinary to really bad (cliched, monotone, awkward). Some pointers from a pro and most would have been so much better.
My song is usually finished by the time I bring it to a live audience. I find that the response I get from the audience is usually a pretty good indication of whether it's going to fly or not. Then I bring it to my producer who will give me suggestions. We'll record the song, burn a few CDs, and pass it on to a few close friends for further critique.
Hey Derek,
Whats good?, Normally i would have a few people knowledgeable about the music listen to the song, then give me some constructive criticisms that would help me to find the proper way to deliver that song or make any necessary changes needed.
I will write song after song....no rehearsals no gaps...no written materials.
I rough it I stuff it...and then I puff it....Then I publish it on www.imeem.com/captainprimo www.podomatic.com/captainprimo
You like the type of music or Genre... then you will like my music..if not you can stuff it..or you can puff it...and yeah I would like some followers on that matter and some comments...and Thanx all
I love my fans...see you the concert soon
Captain_Primo Alive Podcast Show Weekly or whenever
Thank You Derek Silvers
Seat expects it... when I compose a song which
Do them by pure imaginacion Show them first
To my parents, Always finish them without retouchings,Composed them on the cours, To the dy of today Do not show none of songs When follwing touching the songs of my disk, desirous to show the new to the publish.
My parents are really my criticize musicals, And first people in listening my new songs.
Say Record my song Whithout retouchings creat that always is more natural and shows the essence of my creation.
Thanks by the atencion, expect to see us prompt.
YAGO BEDIA.
The chorus most likely comes to me first and then the verse stuff. I have more difficulty finishing the verses. Once I'm done we do test recordings and host some on Garageband.com reviews. Once the review process is over, we review the feedback and take note of general things people keep agreeing with. If there is something substantially negative we will consider changing those parts or removing them or... go back to the drawing board. The best advice I can give is to be open minded to the other ideas of people. Your best efforts could be hacked down so fast you'll be in your room crying wondering what happen to your music dream. On the other hand if you don't care what others might think well,.. Don't worry about it. Oh, and keep it simple. Nobody likes to think about music, mot people just want to loose themselves in it and feel it, they don't want to think about it and most times they don't.
It is a personal process to a point that we feel it is ready for other ears. Some make it to that point, some never see the light of day. We do play the songs for those closest to us first. We've done this long enough we know that we all can be brutally honest about a song. There are a few websites we post to for feedback. Garageband is one of them (as an example) but sometimes we find the critique hit or miss in the "useful" category. Playing a song to our musician network is the next step. We don't pay for critique services, and we have used free services or college students looking to use that as part of their class assignments.
In the end though, if we really believe in a song we will record it. After all, a song is a song is a song. It means something different to different folk across the board. Not every song written is meant to be a billboard smash. Sometimes it is just a song that above all means something to the artist. Nuff said.
It depends on how complete of a vision I can have for a song I write on my own. If I get stuck at the "2/3" point (as my cowriter in LaME. < Cameron and I often do) I'll seek his or - John's input on which direction they think it could go. If I feel the song is written completely enough on its own, I merely compare my gratification of it to others in LaME., or on occassion other close musician friends. I shared a brand new demo online with fans a few years back, and with the incredibly long gestation period LaME. material usually has, it was too far ahead in our compositional journey for it to make sense to anyone else at that point. Now, we usually wait until it's been tested and approved repeatedly at rehearsals, and then directly ask the fans what they thought of the "new song" anytime we introduce one live. Thanks for the question Derek.
¶ Taylor
I use a network of friends who are into new music. This gives me a guide as to whether or not the song is working or not.
Then, there's the musician/writer crowd and they can talk about 'possibilities'.
Sometimes, it's just give things time. Time for the producer in me to know what to do next.
I take the new song fold it like an accordian, tape it to a mini-rocket and send it flying...if it comes back to me,then I feel I perhaps have something.......
No really the band gives good feedback, one song Ray said he had a hard time not crying when I played it the first couple of times....then it is always like opening a present to see how others respond. We have had some really great responses lately. and some constructive comments...Thank you!! Derek!!!!
Rachel
The most honest feedback for us has been from total strangers...
A woman on my space told us
"Your singer sounds constipated and you need to teach him more than one note"...
We did not change that particular song but the next few songs we wrote were more melodic
and our singer tried a different approach.
Derek,
Thanks for the opportunity to provide input. This is a great service for songwriters.
I am strictly a lyricist. I've been writing lyrics for years, and have developed a fairly proficient ability to distinguish good lyrics from bad. That doesn't mean that everything I write is good, it's just that I recognize my bad work rather quickly!
When finished, I always run the lyrics by my wife for her response--and I have made changes as a result of her input (but don't tell her, she'll only want a share of the royalties!).
I then give the lyrics to my songwriting partner. For the last 20+ years my primary writing partner has been John Schwab, lead singer of McGuffey Lane. John and I will discuss any lyric changes he might want, then he writes the melody. We then look at the combination of lyrics and music to make sure everything works. Probably 90% of the songs we have written together have ended up on a CD released by John, McGuffey Lane, or other artists. The bottom line is that John and I have both been writing for a long time, and we don't really seek feedback--we just do it and it always seems to work.
My most recently recorded song was cowritten with J.D. Blackfoot, who included the song on his latest CD. The process was the same as I've always used--we provided our own feedback to each other, and the song just came together.
Hey Derek, Sorry to getting back to you with this reply so late. I would like to thank you for the opportunity to participate with my input to your question. What we did for Kayla Bliss was we put about seventeen songs on a couple of CDs and printed out feedback sheets with the title of each song on it with spaces for people to give their comments. We gave the feedback packages to songwriter mentors; producers; studio engineers; friends; family members; DJs and etc. People have commented from the lyrics, the music, the arrangement and also gave ideas on how to make the song better. We complied all the feedback together and was able to make decisions on what songs need more improvement, which song needed the vocal and music adjusement. Some songs needed the lyrics to be re-written and adjusted. Some people was able to let us know what songs should go on the ablum ans what song to leave out. The majority of the people that gave their feedback were women. I like this feedback session.
I fondly recall the day when I finally realized the only opinion I needed to worry about was mine.
Before arriving at this feeling of independence, I found it helpful to be part of a composer's workshop and have my music played in front of my peers and gauge MY feelings about it then, as opposed to how I felt about it alone in my room. If I still felt the same connection to the music in both situations then I knew I was done regardless of what anyone had to say about the piece.
Songs are ultimately very personal, so playing a new one is sort of like leaning over the Grand Canyon for a peek - a real thrill on LOTS of levels.
I usually run things by the band, or friends in the local songwriting community. There is often a give and take and objectivity when working with others that is not possible when working alone. It's amazing how much I might like some lyric or melody that gets a "that was weird" from listeners.
I've posted songs online on my website for comment. It's amazing how gentle the professionals are, and how blunt the online folks can be. I've pulled songs if I get too much $%*& or other symbol-worded feedback online, as this really doesn't help anyone.
For songs I want to shop out, I send them to NSAI for professional feedback. It's gotten me a TV ad, so I'm happy with the service.
As for my alter-ego songwriter, the one who writes earth-science songs to help my students study, all I have to do is sing in class. College students are amazingly direct.
I have toyed around with the idea of bringing some of our long time fans into the process but we haven't really done that yet.
What we *have* done is:
1. Gotten feedback from producers and engineers during pre-production (kind of hard to avoid when you're in that situation).
2. Gotten feedback from close friends (almost always other musicians and people we have worked with in some way in the past)
3. Played new songs live and tried to gauge the audiences reaction. Not an exact science by any means but if somethings *really* not working you'll probably be able to tell.
4. Gotten feedback from managers / A&R people. Again, kind of unavoidable if these people are already involved.
First, it has to pass by me, and I'm my own harshest critic. If I like the framework of what I've done, I'll run it by two trusted people, my wife and my producer.
I think as songwriters, we all know deep inside if something works, or not. We share a tune in progress with others to tweak it and make it complete.
I record a good demo: a "take one" or "two", then play it for friends or associates. I watch their reaction and listen to the tone of their reply (Sincere, being polite, etc.) I ask: "What did you like about the song?" and most important: "What would you change?" (This really tells you how much they liked it or not.) Here's an example: I'll ask you, the reader: What would you change about "Lovin' Feelin'" by the Rightous Brothers? (If you're like me, probably nothing.) Then you know you got a hit.
When a song shows up, I play it live for at least a couple shows to see the reaction from the crowd as well as the reaction from myself, the movements I make or the emotion the song brings to the performance. From there, you just know when it's right and when it's not
As a record producer, and probably for songwriters too, you can always imagine certain people you know as typifying a certain kind of audience and guage their re-action. But as one who plays mostly my own versions of what I call "real songs", here's a real tough test if you are game.
Imagine a good but not absolutely top song in your genre. Say a Beatle song like I Should Have Known Better, a fifties rocker like say Jenny Jenny... a country near classic like say Second Fiddle. Is your new song as good as that? If not, rewrite it or just play something else. I call this the Second Fiddle test. Yeah, it's tough but your audience can always go home and listen to Irving Berlin or Bob Dylan, they've got plenty to choose from.
WE AT THE AIRSONGS DETROIT TEAM JUST GIVE THE TRACK OR SONG TO THE DJ AT THE DETROIT RECORD POOL AND LET IT RIP !! IF IT'S GOOD, YOU KNOW RIGHT AWAY. YOU KNOW RIGHT AWAY IF IT'S BAD TOO !!!
Derek,
My songs are pretty much finished when I let others hear them. I try not to be too influenced by what others say about my songs. It seems that pleasing myself produces better songs rather than listening to random advice. Of course I want people to like my music, but I try not to worry about that too much. I've had some songs critiqued professionally, but it seemed like they really hadn't listened to the songs at all - it seemed like they were just trying to make a buck.
I play piano in a music variety show called THe Carolina Opry several nights per week. I also play a 15 minute solo pre-show so I have to get warmed up early in the evening...usually when everyone else in the cast is coming in to work. These guys are very very talented...singers, composers, arrangers and A list players. The piano is over in the wings before placement on staage for the pre show. To try a new song out...I just play it during my warm up time and see how many people stop and listen
As a writer for a children's animated show, it's easy for me to get feedback on new songs - I just pick up my guitar and sing the songs to my 2 kids age 7 and 2. If they start bouncing around that's a good thing - if the shout Daddy! No Singing!! then I may be in trouble.
And,as others have said, it really comes down to how you yourself feel about the song - sometimes a break from it is a good thing so that you can listen to it with fresh ears and not be caught up in the exhilaration of the creative process.
For ballads etc. I will run these past my wife - also a musician - and get her comments. She is not afraid to give me an honest opinion as we have been married for 8 years
When working on a new song, I'll work on it until I am satisfied that the song is ready. I'll play it live for some people, fellow musicians, friends and at shows. I can tell if adjustments need to be made by peoples reaction and comments. I also welcome input from the engineers I work with before recording my songs. My partner and young son are ultimately my biggest critics, so when they make a comment, I listen.
These things have helped me improve my songwriting:
-songwriters' critique group (people who really listen, are honest and positive about what they like, where they get lost, sidetracked, etc)
-live performance (paying attention to the connection between performer and listener)
-recording it, even roughly, and hearing it back (especially after stepping away for awhile and hearing it with fresh ears)
-playing it with a band, which can bring new textures and colors to the original idea
-keeping at a song, combing and combing and combing through it to find the tangles
-refraining from judgment until it gets to be done.
I lead the music at our church, so when I finish a song and I'm happy with it I will introduce it as a new song to our congregation without letting them know that I'm the writer. You can usually get very honest reactions and opinions when people aren't worried about offending you.
Holy sh*t, this thread can still not be going. You've created a monster Derek!
I've done this so many different ways, and they all have their uses. Writers' workshops are great IF all the members respect each other and keep it constructive. Using a live performance to test out a new song works really well BUT it depends on the type of song. A rousing song with a catchy hook might be instantly popular with a live audience, but some songs need to be listened to more than once, or with more attention, to be appreciated. Sending demos around can be helpful IF you send them only to people who know how to listen through a lousy recording to give feedback on the actual song.
I've learned two important lessons about getting feedback on songs. The first is to make sure a song is finished to my satisfaction before I play it for an audience. Getting feedback too soon can deflate a new song like a fallen souffle, and often internal patience works better than external advice. The second lesson I've learned is never to ask for feedback unless I truly want it and have no expectations whatsoever about what is going to be said. If I'm looking for compliments, I'm just setting myself up for disappointment and might take it out on the poor little song.
Most writers want to have an audience as much as they want to express themselves, so feedback can be very helpful in keeping the writing from becoming too self-indulgent. On the other hand, too much focus on the opinions of others (especially when you are trying to sell records) can stop someone from writing the work that only that person can write. I've had to learn when to make the conscious decision not to get feedback and just trust myself.
Typically by the time people have heard it, it's finished in my mind. That doen't mean it isn't open to suggestions. I may need to change my process after reading this email. Thanks
DruNK
Speaking as the father/personal manager of an Award Winning Hip-Hop Realist. I would have to say that the Comments & Suggestions that Jake has gotten from other Talented Artist and Listeners from sites like GarageBand.com,projectopus.com, and of course CDBaby.com has given him incite that he is doing something that inspires people, and that's what all art strives to do.
I know a lot of people used to try out their new material at an Open Mic.
Your audience there is largely other songwriters, and you can get feedback from them easily enough.
Talk about their song first.
I play it for a few weeks at solo acoustic shows. If it gets a good response there, then i have my band learn it/write their own parts and we give it a shot at a full, plugged in show. Certain songs go over better unplugged as opposed to full band and vice-versa though so it's hit or miss really. But by the time any audience hears it, it's pretty much done.
First I play it for the family - definitely my most difficult audience as they don't ever sugar coat their comments!
Then I polish it up and start performing the song (or instrumental) in public to see what kind of reaction I get. Sometimes it's quite surprising what goes over best - not always what I expect - and it does vary depending on the audience.
I'm probably my own worst critic and tend to re-arrange my music changing styles, instruments, and keys to see what works best and is most comfortable for me. After a while, certain pieces kind of "float to the top" and become part of my regular repertoire, while others never seem quite complete and eventually slip quietly under the radar.
When I am looking for feedback on a song I am writing, I ask for input from industry professionals or someone who can critique the material with an inside edge. Sometimes I might just upload music but only if it is used for nonprofit.
Derek,
I too sat in on many a songwriter's workshop at Berklee. At the time I was shopping for student songs to record for my MP&E projects. Along the way I found that being a fly on the wall was improving my own sense of what makes a good song as well as my own songwriting skills.
Today I work with 3 other musicians. We work in much the same way as the workshops. Someone presents a song and we all suggest ideas on how to improve the lyric, the melody, the harmonic structure, the delivery. Even after we've performed the song for several months, we go back and see how how to deconstruct it to make it better.
I AM 66YRS OF AGE WITH A MUSIC BACKGROUND. AFTER 40YRS OF NOT BEING INVOLVED IN MUSIC I HAVE DECIDED TO START WRITING AGAIN,
I HAVE READ MOST OF THE ABOVE COMMENTERIES BUT ALL IT REALY TAKES IS A GOOD MELODIC LINE, WITH
GOOD LYRICS (IF ANY) AND A GREAT DEAL OF LUCK. AS A FORMER BUSINESSMAN
YOU MUST BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE WRITING AND WHAT THE PUBLIC WILL BE LISTENING TO.
Interesting topic!! Really it is very useful.
While I agree with everyones comments, I just wanted to say that the main thing behind songwriting is speaking either from the heart, or from a personal experience and that's all that really matters.
I have been happy with ACIDplanet since 2004 but I am always interested infinding a fresh group of people with honest reviews of the songs that I have written.
Writing songs, for me, is solitary work. I work alone and I know when a song is finished. And when it's done, it's done.
At that point anyone who hears it can form their own opinion. I'm not interested in anyone's suggested improvement of the lyrics and melody. I'm not into focus groups. But I'm okay if someone wants to interpret or arrange the song differently. That's the singer's prerogative.
on a personal level i know a song is done when i know it, but that does not stop the song from being in evolution
One test is if the song comes back to me when i am not working on it, i know it has something
My mom is a literary genius and i go to her for feedback
I usually do a 4 track at home then bring it to band rehearsal if I think it's appropriate for our show. I either get honest feedback, an enthusiastic response or silence. If it's feedback for improvement, I re-work it and bring it back. Enthusiastic response, I flesh out the arrangement to add to our set lists. Silence, I throw it in my file drawer for future consideration.
I never bother with seeking feedback for a song fresh off the press. People will often tell you what you want to hear or even worse what you don't want to hear. Somehow it's usually overkill in either direction.
One look at the history of #1 songs should make people who write take a close look at public opinion which put such a forgettable song like "My Ding A Ling" on top of the charts back in the early 1970's. There's been far worse since then. Opinions are just that, an opinion.
I write my song - then re-write it if I must! I Treat it like one who shapes clay into an image and then reshapes it into something better while still in the process of creating the final product.
When finished I listen, listen and listen again and again untill I'm either sick of it or ready to fine-tune.
It may not go to number one but it's something I can be very proud to have my name on.
I am a singer/songwriter who has been working on my first original album this year and finally have 4 songs 1.0 version ready to let people starting listening too and giving me feedback on. Everytime I get ready to put one of my new songs up on my site or youtube channel, I get a sick feeling like I'm sedning it out the lions who will eat it up like it's free domain or something (you know how the internet theft of music has gotten out of control)!!
Do, Do any of you here ever worry about your song being stolen? Even if it's copywritten in the USA, doesn't anyone ever worry about international copyright infringement of their new unreleased song/s?
I would love to put up one of my new songs on my site or youtube channel to get some feedback from my friends and subscribers but I find my self a bit concerned that someone may find it good enough to become theirs! And that would suck, like as if someone kidnapped my child!! So how do we get over that worry and just release the song? I am really wondering if anyone but me will really take a liking to my songs!!
Peace and Love to you all!! Great website and comments, keep up the great work!! Long Live Sivers!!
Hello there, i'm a professional dancer. i need to make a showreel regarding my promotions. I also wish to use some animation. Can someone suggest me the best animation studio, but definitely not very expensive? I'm here for 3 months for a tour.
Love
Kim.
hi iam very good song writer iam selling my songs lyrics are u intreasted please tell me thanks
Derek,
I tend to watch the women in the audience first, then the guys, who tend to be more inhibited. If I see the women start singing the chorus, then I know it works. Writer's nights are great. Friend's are okay but if they are blind in their allegiance their comments have to be viewed as such. A production can be great but like Quincy Jones says, " Before the studio and production comes the lyrics. If they do not work then the song just won't either."