What do you do for feedback on a new song you're writing?
2009-02-27
What do you do for feedback on a new song you're writing?
- Do you play it for a few friends, looking for praise?
- Do you play it for a few friends, looking for criticism? (Really asking, “What don't you like about it?”)
- Do you upload it to your site, and email everyone you know, asking what they think?
- Do you send it to a company for paid critique?
- Do you have a songwriting teacher or mentor?
When you get feedback, are you looking to change and improve your song?
Or by the time someone hears it, is it pretty much done?
When I was at Berklee College of Music, then later living in New York City, I loved the songwriting workshops where you'd play unfinished songs for one teacher/mentor and a room full of other songwriters. They'd really tear it apart, analyze every note and word, and suggest improvements.
I learned so much about songwriting from those sessions. Not just for my own songs, but it's really educational to help improve other people's songs, too.
But that was before the internet. Is there something like that online, now?
What do you do for feedback on a new song you're writing? The more info you can give, the better. I'm really trying to understand other people's approaches to this. Thanks!
typically we'll finish the song and play it at a couple shows, either first or last, then ask ppl in the audience what they thought - honestly. we've got some pretty great and on point feedback from doing this, and typically the songs that are most loved at our live shows sell the most on itunes.
(1) I attempt to guauge audience feedback
(2) I solicit feedback by way of co-write meetings
(3) I just flake out, play it and simply don't seek it.
Primarily the 3rd. Foolish on my part.
Good question Derek
I usually play it for close friends. My four and half year old daughter is also the most honest person I know when it comes to that stuff. If she starts dancing right away, that's half the battle. If she stares at the speakers, I'm in trouble. I also submit stuff to Ourstage.com and see how it ranks at the end of the month.
Hope you are well.
Alexis
Though I hate email, I find it is useful for this. I like to send out emails individually to people with one song attached. I'll add in a couple lines about the song and then ask people about what they think. It is a pretty focused way to get someone to think about a song. If you send them a link to a site where you are streaming a bunch of music or send them an album, they tend not to have as much specific feedback about particular songs.
I have tried getting feedback from friends, family, Industry "experts" etc...which will only leave you more ocnfused and frustrated.
The bottom line is music is subjective, one man's garbage is another man's gold...write it and they will come!
hi Derek ..
I think there is no site that provides the same great feedback that a workshop can ...
I currently use friends for this, but it is not easy because one writes a lot and people have limited time ... you know what I am talking about .
I hope there's aplace where we can all share and critique our creations
I ask my cowriters for their input. I also belong to Nashville Songwriters Association International who do every genre of music, and as part of your membership you get 12 free evaluations from a pro writer per year.
Trial by fire was more like what I grew up with - instead of a "mentoring" environment like a classroom, songwriters in my circle of friends would come to this great little bar in Bogota (Colombia) called "San Sebastian", where we would get up on stage with the live crowd, and all the other musicians, and play our new songs.
So instead of "comments" you got a silent attentive room (they liked it), or a noisy chattery room (didn't like it). In any case, the owner being in charge of who could sing or not, would invite you back the following night or week, and that was the approval stamp.
Many songs from my repertoire had their trial-by-fire there, and it was a good thermometer for deciding whether the song was worth investing the time to perfect.
Sadly, I think many songwriters fall in love with too many of their own songs that may not have what it takes to get them noticed.
A "focus group" can really help weed out the good ones.
Luis
I try and play a new song for other musicians. Friends can be surprisingly critical. Musicians tend to understand the song-writing process and have a clearer grasp of what it means to write a song.
Also. Friends, bless them all, have a relationship with you and whether conscious or not, may have an agenda in the dynamics of that friendship. So the feedback can tend to be made through the filter of 'how they know you'...which sullies any attempt at objectivity.
My wife! My producer. My son.
Hey Derek.
When I'm writing, I'll be editing as I go - some songs never make it off the cutting room floor.
The songs that do get recorded in work tape form on my computer. I listen through a few times. If I feel like I want to keep listening after two or three times through, that's a good sign - then I'll try playing it out at a writers' night or two. If I still feel good about the song while playing it for a bunch of friends and fans and strangers, that's a good sign too.
If that feeling remains for more shows, it often makes the next record. It's kind of survival of the fittest, natural selection.
There are some songs that friends or fans seem to respond well to, that I don't feel good about. When that's the case, I try and give the song(s) a second chance. If I still don't get excited about 'em, they get shelved. I want fans to relate to the new stuff, but I need to feel it myself in order to play it out night after night.
Hope that helps.
-Tori
http://www.torisparks.com
http://www.myspace.com/torisparks
New album "The Scorpion in the Story" due in June 2009... stay tuned! CD + Music Video Release Extravaganza on June 4th @ The Rutledge (Nashville, TN).
1./ As idiotic as it might sound, I take a rough mix over for my Mom to hear.
2./ I have a network of pro songwriter pals that I run mixes by.
3./ Often I don't worry or care about feedback on songs. Many times, if I like it, that's good enough
That's it. The music I compose is presented in it's finished form, with no concern as to someone's liking it or not. It works for me... 19 CD's and counting.
I'd sure like to know what Paul McCartney did / does or Lenny Kravitz does for feedback.
Whatever they did, it results in hit songs.
I cowrite wither others, get feedback from the band on 'my' songs AND, my favorite, I'm in an ongoing, grass roots 'song group' with a bunch of Bay Area songwriters who meet every couple weeks, have dinner, then play our latest song. Lyrics are passed, comments made on structure, lyrics, form etc. It's a widely diverse group of writers and anywhere from 3-12 people show up (the email list is much bigger). It not only keeps us writing, it keeps us listening. You aren't asked to like the song, you're asked to serve it. I haven't done much online--tho I did sign up for Indaba & have made some contacts there--mostly because I'm already busy passing lyrics and mp3s back and forth with a couple of cowriters (some whom I first met in 'song group.')
I get it to a point where it's worth hearing by my peers, and then put it up on my buddy corey's project, dubfiler.com . send links to folks, they can stream or download, and then generally get comments in real-time over IM. do it in the middle of the day NYC time and it's pretty time-zone friendly.
Super, super-important to have a set of peers who'll give you real, constructive, honest criticism.
This is gonna get you and me all kinds of hate mail, but I gotta be honest - the two very LAST things I'd ever do is pay someone to critique something or go to a writers' workshop. When your song works, you know it. If you're not sure it does, and you need to solicit the opinion of a room full of people or pay an "expert", your song is not ready. Just keep working on it. You'll know when you get there.
There is a whole thriving cottage industry of such workshops and critiquing services. Spend your money on production and promotion of music that's the best YOU can make it be.
I've done all of the things in your preceeding paragraph as concerns feedback from others. Now, I watch body language and emotional reaction to the folks that are listening to the song. This can be difficult, because a lot of the clubs that we perform in are not conducive to listening. If there is a an emotional response to the song, I feel that I have done my job well. After all, this is what music is really all about--memories and emotion.
I send an acoustic version of all new songs to the members of the band. We then take it in to rehearsal if everyone agrees it is "worthy". After playing it through a few times we either give it a thumbs up or toss it.
Easy, I used to just not write songs.
Now I do write songs but it's a miracel if they lyrics are understood with me screaming them. So the songs are simple.
Other than that my girlfriend makes funny variations of the lyrics to tease me.
I'm been thinking about doing a "collaborative" experiment by posting the same piece weekly (in all its ugliness) as I progress, and elicit feedback from fans directly as I go. Then when the CD comes out, folks can say "Hey I helped with that!"
i work with a co-writer/producer; i'll ususally have 75-80% of the song in a cohesive form before i think about letting anybody hear it.
i don't solicit ideas from friends; they're obligated to give you positive feedback. my wife will be allowed OCCASIONALLY, or if i have a song that's about our relationship.
that's primarily because i generate the germs for songs, whether they begin as a lyrical/conceptual idea, or a groove that "feels" like a certain lyrical/melodical idea suits it. there's really no set pattern for me; it's strictly a feel thing. the lyrics usually come easier IF i have a stong conceptual base. if the idea is sort of amorphous, the song will take longer to complete due to the ambiguity of the the fundamental idea, message or story, which takes longer to flesh out.
Because I have been doing this a long time, my own bullshit detgector is very strong, but I sometimes run songs by my non-musical husband, to see how he reacts...if I see I'm losing him, I know it's not there yet. He has picked winners befoer."Oh, I like THAT one best" and that one went on the be the Western Music Association song of the year for me.
I also have a close songwriter friend to whom I'll send snippets, and he will say "Nope, you don't have the ends tied up on that one"...or "NOW you are writing like I know you can"
A couple of live performances will tell me if a song is working or not. Some that work well on an album, do not work as well as "stand alone" songs in concert.
Internet is really all I have @ this point to get awidespread of feedback on my music besides performing -I always enjoy having new people leave comments-just really after that word of mouf-Im headed to phoenix as we have a booth @ the Lowrider Car Show March 1st- Its like if whereever u @are isnt giving u the props your lookin for then u have to expand ya horizon-So living on the East Coast I have a lot of West Coast connects and I try to utilize that to the best of my ability- I've also learned that ya homies is gonna tell u hopefully what chu wanna hear-u gotta go other places because them same homies can be lying to you then you'll be shocked that when u get out there noone really likes you-
Basically I attempt to establish either the 'hook' or a signature riff, then work a full song around this. At that point I try to get feedback from other musicians who have different styles from each other. Then revisit the song creatively a final time before locking it down and moving on to another tune.
I tend to write for myself and the subject at hand vs appeasing any type of audience. What I find is that the audience fits into 2 categories: People who like music but necessarily don't know how to write music to save their lives, or people who write music but give their 2 cent opinion based off of what THEY'D do vs what's best for YOUR song. I say do your thing and let the chips fall where they lie. Music shouldn't have "test screenings". It defeats the purpose of a song's passion if all you're trying to do is maximize sales. If that's your goal, then go audition for American Idol.
I used to play in-progress works for anyone and everyone nearby but I've found that most people don't tend to give very detailed criticisms. When I did get criticisms, they tended to be about faults that were there because I had played a rough mix.
Now, I tend to work from start to finish without seeking feedback. Criticisms is always welcome, and I seriously consider it when I get it, but I'm not willing to put in the effort to seek it out.
I have a songwriters group-people whose opinions I trust. I also work sometimes with a writing coach. I really depend on feedback, as I am often not right about whether what I'm writing is good or not!
I used to network at East Coast Music on night a month where artists would meet and play one track of a song they may have just put together.
We would all then give that artist our feedback (using positive constructive advice) on where we thought the song might need some improvement. It was a great way to network and share our work.
This is an interesting topic Derek. I usually play my new songs, first and foremost, to fellow musicians/friends. Here, I'm looking for their crtiscisms. If they give the song praise, that's it for me!
However, I now know that it's important to play new songs to the 'lay' listeners as they usually are the music buyers; mainstream that is.
I used to network at East Coast Music one night a month where artists would meet and play one track of a song they may have just put together.
We would all then give that artist our feedback (using positive constructive advice) on where we thought the song might need some improvement. It was a great way to network and share our work.
I truly believe that the creative process is (even in the realm of, say, 'Jazz' composition and performance) a singular one. While I understand why some people might cherish the value of having another person dissect and disseminate their art, I think it is more important for the artist (or artists, if that is the case) to do this on their own. There is nobody who is going to be a greater catalyst at centralizing what you hope to express than you are -- but the key is to be willing to be honest with yourself. While other people may be able to point you into the direction where they feel you should go, I think the duty of a creative artist is to be assertive enough with yourself to figure out why something is/isn't working. Likewise, while it is possible that somebody could offer useful advice, it is just as likely that they could send you down the wrong path, which might cause you to jettison an otherwise fine piece of music.
I've found that I can instinctively tell when something I'm writing just isn't working, and I've certainly made mistakes in denying this obvious aspect when writing something (perhaps because I thought a particular aspect was 'clever'). But part of the process is listening to what you're doing, and ultimately, I feel it is more important for an artist to create something that pleases them over something that pleases someone else. If their art happens to please somebody else, that is great, but I don't feel that people should create simply out of a desire to appease others.
What I usually do is use my own test of time. Put them on a shelf and if after a month or so I can still remember the melody and most of the words (and all of the feeling), it's a keeper.
I don't listen to a lot of stuff nor do I attempt to balance my stuff to other music. If I can hum it as I can hum a 70s song, I have a keeper.
1) Play it. Pay close attention to when something just doesn't feel right. Add an arrangement, subtract an arrangement, or just ditch the section/song altogether.
2) Record it. Go for a walk and listen to the song critically -- suppressing the temptation to only hear your own contribution (unless you *are* the only contribution). Play it for a few friends who will be honest with you.
3) Play it live. See how people react to the song. Did it get more/less applause than the rest of the set? Are people talking to you about it after the show? Are they asking to buy the CD that has that song on it?
I send it to my most trusted musician friends. My guitarist and producer and another friend I have written with before. I look for constructive, unbiased criticism. They are the ones who know me and my capabilities and I trust them to be open to new styles and subject matter that I might be persuing. It's always a great experience and I have made amazing changes in songs and my ability to write because of them. I am not a fan of paid critiques and I would not put a song up on the web until I was sure it was finished. It may be a demo recording but the song itself must be finihsed. Here is a favorite quote from Janis Ian "Nowadays it doesn't matter if I don't write anything for a year. My thinking is, I'm a good songwriter, and occasionally I will be a great songwriter." Janis Ian
It keeps me writing and trying without having the pressure of being perfect all of the time. I am a pefectionist in many areas and it can be to a fault if I don't remember that.
Show it to a few colleagues who’s opinions I trust.
If written & recorded for a requested submission, I'll send it in and hope it sticks to the wall. If it's "close but no cigar" it often will come back with suggested changes for resubmission.
If I'm really high on it, I'll perform it at a live show to see audience reaction.
I use soundcloud.com Not all that many people are on the site yet, but most of them that care to listen will give some sort of constructive criticism or just a pat on the back or whatever.
I think songs are like photographs. If you watch a photographer in action, shooting, he or she moves around like a snake, shooting every angle, not hesitating or laboring over decisions. Then later the best handful are presented as finished product.
Never stop writing, never labor too much, finish the song and move on to the next. Evaluate them later. Get feedback, but also take some time away and listen with new perspective later. You will hear your songs with fresh ears and have a much clearer picture of which are your best.
Like any craft, the more you write, the better you get at it.
I start off with my girlfriend and some friends, but of course they usually just praise it (not that it's not great, but i don't get much negative feedback from them).
Then I put it on Myspace / Acidplanet / other sites and see if I get comments. Unfortunately, I used to get alot more comments and reviews from random people which were very helpful, but lately no one seems to bother posting comments on Myspace, etc.
Generally speaking I keep my songs to myself and work them until they are ready for the light of day. I don't actually solicit feedback very often.
I would however like to offer a thought to those of you with short attention spans (like me): have someone else sing/play your song to you and if you still like hearing someone else sing it, then you might just be onto something good.
I get a lot of help from the Songwriters Guild of America. (www.songwritersguild.com)
They have proven results that can help you write and polish your song before pitching to record companies or film/tv listings.
Its remarkable.
I wait a few days and if I still like a song I solicit feedback from friends who aren't afraid to tell me the honest truth. Then I turn to a "mentors" who can give me more technical advice.
Depnds if your a song catcher or a song crafter.. Some people just honor the inital inspiration of something others bring it to the anvil and craft it.. Both valid approaches..
I'll play 3-4 new songs at a performance or an open-mic nite, then as then as they're leaving, I'll ask people which song(s) they remember well enough to whistle. (The "Old Grey Whistle Test")
1. I play it for my wife, who is very critical of my work, then re-work the song.
2. I play it at my church, gauge audience reaction, and,if necessary, re-work the song.
3. Record it, post it at Taxi, submit it to a few listings, post at Broadjam, submit it for peer review and post it to my fans website http://cliffsongs4you.com where they can rate and comment on the song; gather feedback from all three and, if neccessary, re-work the song and/or the recording.
I attend a once a month gathering at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago where a group of sometimes 20 or more songwriters sit in a circle and critique new songs that are presented.
I'll oftentimes change certain elements of a song if the whole group agrees on a certain criticism, especially if it's some aspect I already had doubts about.
I really do aske people "What DON'T you like about my song?"
Most of my work is audio art, and these days, when I am finishing a piece, I'll put it up at a secret url on my webpage: http://www.hoodturkey.com /something not published, and then I'll e-mail a few friends and ask them for their thoughts.
Derek,
Good to see you old friend. Honestly - I wouldn't dream of soliciting feedback in any way. I create songs as a one way (OUT!) expression in order to create more. The notion of feedback on something so personal strikes me as absurd - however EXCELLENT as conversation.
All the best my friend,
B.
Songwriting is a very personal process. When I was younger I used to play half finished songs to friends for input, and I advise that you do that when you're starting out. I still do it if I get stuck with a song, but if the muse is flowing and you're loving what you're writing and are happy with the result, no criticism will make you want to change what you've written.
That being said, when I went to record my last album I let my musical collaborators suggest changes to the arrangements because they had so much more experience than me, and they were seldom wrong.
Just be sure you know what you're asking for and whether you really want to hear what people honestly think of your writing. I've had friendships damaged in poorly thought-out exchanges like this!
I like what Mr. Pike said....but reality is I never heard of him and his 19 CDs. If you're looking for the broadest possible audience for your music, and who isn't, objective criticism is crucial whether you like it or not. My two cents.
The more help you have with your garden the less it belongs to you.
I play the songs I write live and look for excitement.
The (Beat,Groove,Creates excitement)I then look for genuine intrest in faces or Questions. i the consider marketability etc.
I then determine if the song is better live or on stage.
I then play it for smart people,then dumb people
I then get drunk and swear never to write another song
I then sober up amnd start the whole process all over again
You don't have to be nuts But it sure HELPS
I'm so glad I'm not an approval junkie.
In answer to Derek's question: absolutely nothing.
That's because I have the balls and candour to do whatever the f**k I want without the need for approval, fans, or changing what I wanted to do for some fat-cat exec producer. If I like it, it goes on the album (gets released, whatever).
I upload them, send them to my band mates and a couple friends. Our drummer Steve is very honest. He tells me if he thinks it's too short, if the hook is good, if my lyrics suck ass.
I play it for my band, they make some edits, we record it. Nobody else has ever offered me constructive feedback. I'd be curious to have an intense song critique with some honest strangers.
I find that the best way is to put it in the song list for that nights gig and see what people think.
In the final analysis, the only people that matter are your audience and your fans.
the more people you ask , the more different advices you have !
If you're going to do a workshop, make sure you're with songwriters of equal or greater ability or level of accomplishment as you otherwise, the critiques are not going to hold much water.
Lately, I might play a song idea for my co-writing buddies and if they're into it, we finish the song. If not, it gets shelved.
If I play an idea for a friend, again it's a friend who I consider to be an excellent songwriter and if they like it, then I know I'm heading in the right direction. If he or she offers criticism that improves the song, then I'll implement their ideas. And of course I'll give them co-writing credit if the ideas get used in the final master.
Often, the tune's already finished by the time anyone hears it.
Hope some of this is helpful.
I send links to MP3s of my tunes randomly
to people I don't know. (I find it's very cost effective, and surprisingly honest... I figure a stranger has no need to soften a critique for the sake of my "feelings")
Yes, I try to get to listen my songs to my friends even if song is not ready yet, by playing guitar & sing with. But for years was using Broadjam service where not only people of music but also people of people can listen to uploaded tracks & comment. It was helpful as well. I never try to improve already writen song, but next time i write one I try to perfect off new one from any angle(from my point of view of course).
I am always open to feedback and believe the ultimate goal in songwriting is getting the best song possible. When I write a song I usually take it to my band and see if they like it. Then we work on it and adapt it together. It seems to work well.
I am very wary of just putting a new song out there because, as someone said earlier, it's so subjective. And for every gem of advice you have to wade through a couple dozen bad suggestions. The key really is to find those gems in the morass. Seems like everyone's got an opinion, but finding one that actually applies is no easy task.
And if everyone is offering all these critiques, it's so easy to just get bogged down by negative energy in what is an emotionally fragile process of songwriting.
So I'm open to feedback and have embraced many critiques over the years, but I'm just very wary and guarded about it.
What a great question.. And one that has haunted me of late. There's a few answers in my life:
1. Play it for a friend or my mom if I need an ego boost.
2. Don't play it for anyone until I finish it, or near finish it. By then it's usually congealed into its final form and making changes is harder.
3. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO: upload it to my Web site or another Web site and share it with a small trusted group of people who I know will give me *honest* feedback. People who know the industry and are experienced songwriters themselves.
4. I also submit songs to Taxi, and sometimes give feedback, which is great. But may of their listings give you a simple accept/reject, with no critique.
Damian
I'd never use a paid service to critique my work. That's just throwing away good money.
Being a comedy-based writer, I spend a great deal of time in serious writing and polishing of my tracks before I release them.
Then, once released, I let the chips fall where they may and solicit feedback from friends or people I've met on-line.
Over the years, I've gotten some great feedback on the quality of tracks I mix...I've learned to listen to it using someone else's ear.
I use to just worry about if people "got it". Now I know that if they can hear it..."getting it" is secondary. My vocals need to be mixed correctly and the overall mix has to be sharp.
Of course, it helps to have my own "comedy" review site (www.AllSuckReview.com) where folks can get my review of their work (provided they want to hear me say that it sucks).
Then, they may, in turn, check out my stuff and give me some feedback.
Oh yeah, it helps when they buy my stuff. Getting paid is always a great piece of feedback.
Typically, I know what I am after when I write... Not that I know the finished form - but the journey to that finished form can take an hour, a week, a month, or years. I don't always know right away when I am done. Or I think I am, but discover later that I am not. And that process of gradual completion is what I am after - like digging a fossil out of soft mud and bit by bit separating the bone from the debris. Or chipping away at a block of ice or gnarly piece of wood until hidden forms are able to reveal themselves, as completely as possible.
...So other people's input is not always very helpful to this process. I make what I want to make, I write what I want to write, and then I record or perform it and people respond how they respond. I haven't had many, if any, bad reactions, though some tunes clearly have more of an effect that others. That is fine.
Often I test my "finished" tunes at open mic nights so I can see what they do. Then I have a better idea of how they might fit into a live set or a CD project. Sometimes the order in which a few songs are performed can emphasize or totally kill the response to one or another of them.
Actually, as for bad reactions, they sometimes come when I first start writing, when the idea is raw and naked and maybe a little bit goofy, and I have to weather the doubts (mine and others') in order to pursue what I know has promise.
I don't write or perform for applause or appreciation (although, these things are nice when they happen). I do it because I love it, and because I love to do it well when I can. (This can be practiced). As it happens, people respond well to that.
I burn CDs, create a formal questionnaire and give it to at least 10 friends. I give them a deadline and let them express themselves freely. As an incentive, I have paid them $10 each or some prefer a free CD when it comes out.
Usually, someone says something that results in changes. I find this method to be very helpful.
This month I'm writing & recording 14 songs...and putting them out in public to get feedback. That's a hard process, but is enlightening.
I've got one day left, and only 5 songs published on my site.
But I'd like to hear what you think.
I just did this today. I have been working on my new musical so I am writing the libretto as well as the songs so the lyric ideas have to be contectual. The dialogue tells you if the next emotional step is dance (sometimes) or song, a heightened emotional vehicle. So, I had written a new song for the musical (It's about Moses) and I wrote some music I liked (big emotional ballad)and then spent a few days working on the dialogue and the lyric at the same time. My first draft I ran by my wife (not a songwriter but a very educated person (MD))and she said she felt the emotion in the lyric so I will then do a studio ruff/work disc and perfect the chorus melody so it maximizes the emotion. Typically notally the fifth is a much stronger point than the third or the tonic for a starting note in the chorus. In big ballads sustaining and repeating those lead notes can lead to those much wanted and anticipated goose bumps....I've had quite a lot of success with my songs so I'm fairly confidant the critique process is working. I work to write memorable yet not overly simplistic melodies. I have a small group of people I would also occasionally run an idea/half-finished song by and most of them have been at one time a co-writer. When I lived in Nashville I would go by ASCAP (I am a BMI writer and both BMI and ASCAP publisher)and run some songs by some of the VP's. That helped a lot.
I think the best feedback you can get on a song is in the live milieu; if someone in the audience comes up and wants to buy the album the song is not yet on, or the response is tepid (like people leaving during the song!), that's all the positive or negative feedback an artist needs.
Going to critique sessions is great for someone starting out, but after a few years it's safe to assume that everything one does is a premeditated aesthetic choice that has absolutely nothing to do with what someone else thinks of it. That is to say, the truly objective helpful nuggets of advice taper off the longer one is engaged in one's process and sharing work with other artists.
I try to make each song the epitome of what it's supposed to be, no matter the genre...different people are going to connect with different things, as art is subjective. So when I finish a song, it may appeal to a relatively small fringe demographic, but that has no bearing on a song's overall quality. It's just different strokes.
XOXO
I use "Garageband.com" as a primary source for feedback. I also just ask around and play it for friends, family, and really try to pinpoint what it is the like/dislike and most importantly: WHY. I really to press on the why. I also try to differentiate between lyrics and music. Yes, I may change some aspect of the song, but if I feel very strongly about some element of the song - I might choose to not change a doggone thing about it.
Some years ago, I posted my songs on certain online platforms where you got feedback from other (similar) artists or whoever. It was absolutely unhelpful due to various reasons. 50 comments, 50 opinions.
What I learned then was that music is best when it comes straight from your heart, no compromise! I nowadays make the music only for myself, the way I like it. The way I would wish others to make their music sound like but they don't do it.
I only ask friends with knowledge in this matter for help concerning the technical side: EQing, mastering, etc. But the music... well, frankly, I don't care anymore if others like my music or not. Some do, that's great, but most don't. Their bad. ;)
If my 4 year old is humming or singing the melody/chorus an hour later without realizing it, I know I've got a winner
I usually don't present unfinished tracks. When I have an idea I go for it. When it is finished I decide what to do with it, if I keep it or forget it. But I'm writing so much music. We ( Elizabeth and I )have written and produced 30+ high quality instrumental tracks since January.
The more I do, the more ideas come up. I don't like to breed over a piece of music. If it is strong, it pops up all on it's own.
Hi Derek, At the moment I've been looking for the feedback and asking for it on my Myspace site, also sending it to Publishers dropping the good points Like I'm #4 on www.ubl.com/charts/pop and That I got sing On 2 Velvet Revolver Tunes which I've posted, asking people to leave a comment On Th VR site and mine.You never know who is listening!!
Cheers
Tommy
Dear derek, thanks for all your great articles, as a singer/songwriter, i just put out whatever comes out of me. Music is subjective, what one may dislike, another will praise. So i have learned to share my music wherever i can : with other musicians, with listeners and different audiences of all ages, and in different envirements. I havn,t tried the songwriter circles, maybe cause my experiences with other musicians are always too judgemental, and ego,s in the way. well take care and be blessed derek
I write with a partner, so we both tear each other apart or pour praise; both with no shame which is good.
We recently did a record with a famous producer and he had no mercy on our 'precious' songs. He'd rip entire verses out or say something was crap. Sometimes he was right and other times we stuck to our guns and he came around. In either case, it was a new experience and really opened us up to a fresh way of working with objectivity and unattachment.
We also try out songs for friends and ask for critique, but I've found the BEST way to get feedback is to just throw a new song (even if unfinished) into our live set and see and feel how it goes over. I find you can tell pretty quickly whether it goes over or not.
I listen closely for the applause !
A songwriter is like a decorator. You take cues from what's there around you, but you then look inside for answers. You let your imagination take control, telling it that there are no right or wrong ideas. First, it must feel right to you, then you check with those you respect to see if they agree. Be prepared to be a song re-writer, willing to keep digging for better ideas. It's like pannying for gold, you sift though a lot before you find what you really want.
I've found that constructive criticism should only be solicited (via email from close friends and family) when you are "finished" or nearly finished with a recording. If you want feedback about a song you are writing then I would apply the same general logic... wait until you are done or nearly so and then listen to your friends advice with an open mind. Don't immediately disregard what they are saying until you have had a chance to thoroughly digest the critique and then you can make a decision to act on the advice. I recommend at least one good nights sleep before making changes or disregarding advice.
I am lucky enough to live in an area that is surrounded by great musicians. If I am stuck and absolutely need to hear what other people think, i'll take it to the most honest and best musicians I know. People who are a ton better than I am hahaha.
As long as you know they are being honest...thats the best thing to do.
I wouldn't release anything I wasn't 100% proud of. As long as you are "there" with your music...go ahead and release it, THEN just hope people see what you see.
The other day Gwyneth Paltrow said something like this:
"You don't get it, because if you GOT it, you would LOVE it"
As long as you are doing good work, that you are happy with, people will get it.
Don't listen to or trust critics. Good or Bad review.
I like to play it for my 10 year old daughter; if she says it sucks then she's probably right. Kids are very honest. Other than that I play it for other musical friends who also write songs and eventually play it live at a gig.
To get professional feedback, I use the Songwriters Guild of America.
They have a great team of people with track records who help you polish your songs and get proven results.
I've used many professional services and I've never learned so much about 'real' songwriting.
I learned to not trust my friends or family.
i am my primary audience. if i don't like it, then there's no point showing others.
i've also found that family and certain friends don't "get" music that isn't mainstream, (loud, quirky, electronic, whatever.), so their opinion is of limited value, and often confuses me. especially when comparing to people who do like the genre. take-away-lesson: audition to people who normally like that kind of music...
however, if a song i write does appeal to them, it's usually a good catchy song, so i guess it's more mass market that way. easy to stomach, no burn in period required before you "get it", more accessible... which, has it's purposes, a few real hooks on an album to draw people in, and the rest can be more interesting after that to satisfy the more critical listener.
I think you know when a song is finished...The problem is that there are a lot of unfinished songs that being selfish and not wanting to share credit, have inhibited the potential of the song. Rewrite, rewrite, rewrite or collaborate with a songwriter you admire and trust. When he/she can't suggest anything, done!! Lastly, 50% of a hit song is worth a lot more than 100% of a shitty song.
TO THOSE THAT SAY THEY DON'T SEEK FEEDBACK:
Does that mean your songs can not be improved?
Or that they can be improved, but only you know how to improve it?
Or that others might have great suggestions for improvements, but you just don't want to hear it?
Thanks for asking this question to the community. I recently was looking for a legitimate method of vetting a series of compositions for a new CD we are producing. Most of the 'rating' sites I found either did not look credible or seemed poorly attended. I was also looking for more professional than casual feedback- the reviewers would need to know something about the music industry, music theory and composition and also be very active listeners in order to provide detailed feedback on each song (there were 14 compositions and over an hour of music)
I realized that in order to get the quality of feedback I was looking for I would need to recruit and paid people. Since our budget was small (200.00) I decide to recruit only 8 people from different segments of our intended audience. I got several student from the music industry program to participate and also some faculty in the college of music. Then I got a few friends that I could just count on to be really honest and explicit in there comments on the music. I also focused my questions in the follow format:
Step One: Rank the songs 1 = best to 10= least favorite.
Step Two: for each song comment on the following
- Length
- Listenablity
- Composition
- Images and feelings evoked
- audience this piece might appeal to
- Lyrics
- other feedback...
The feedback from all the comments were compiled and given to the composer who is now making adjustments to the content of the music and format for the CD based on this pre-release feedback. Many of the comments started to provide indicators that certain pieces needed more fine tuning or might be better considered in a different order. There were only a few areas of undeniable consensus but none the less the review process was extremely helpful and eye-opening.
I hope there can someday be an community of peers to provide this type of service.
Thanks again for posing this question Derek- appreciate all you do for the wide world of music.
Hey Derek, thanks for asking about feedback on songwriting. I would like to make a brief comment about this. My main goal when writing a new song is for it to be catchy with a good melody or cool unique riffs that make it musical and exciting. You must be able to critique yourself honestly. Listen closely to your song and be honest if it's boring. If it is, you need to immediately start working on it again and make it more exciting. When I was in the studio recording my new jazz release, my musicians were whistling the melody of my tunes while they were in the control room and off to the bathroom or kitchen. That's when the true satisfaction happens for me. To hear the tune come alive for the first time and people digging it as a catchy exciting tune. That's it man. By the way, you went to Berklee I see. I wonder when you were there? I have a BM from Berklee. Cool man.
I start with people closest to me like my wife and her kids (they can be very opinionated and brutal, but that is good thing). I will post on quite a few music web sites lke numberonemusic.com, reverb etc... I used to post on acidplanet.com and garageband.com though not much any more. Garageband is really set up well for getting opinions tough sometimes that can a bad thing. I am just starting to set up polls on my blog and release sites. We shall see what kind of responses I get with them.
in terms of feedback, there is something that i keep in mind the whole time. if you are going to present a song to the public then it is going into the general song pool with all the other songs that have been written and then sung in public. that pool includes every song by rodgers and hammerstein, the beatles, bob dylan, etc. you get the picture. so pick your favorite songs by other people and put them up against your song. are they that good? if they aren't then you haven't finished writing your song yet. check out the numerous post on this at the free artist resource site, www.datamusicata.com
james lee stanley
I have people I online chat with listen to the songs on CD baby. I get all positive feedback. Some of them have left comments on the CD baby site. I know which songs are strong and which ones are weak. From the statistical data you provide My song Shotgun is the most popular. So on my website that is the song that plays. Also a video was made on utube to further promote it. My songs are what they are. I have had another musician cover a few of my songs with a different approach. Those will be available in the future. I have a backlog of CDs to produce. I will be releasing one a month because a new song on CDbaby gets more hits initialy.
I take a drive with one of my musician friends and play them a rough mix I've recorded, even if its just vocals and guitars. Once to listen through it, then a second time for criticism.
makes sure that it's a friend who can be brutally honest if they need to be.
As far as feedback on a mix, driving in the friends car and listening on THEIR stereo is the best, because they know what a hit is supposed to sound like on their stereo and can tell if something is amiss.
Yes, song developement is cool, provided the songwriter is really interested in the criticism. Like Donald Trump in the boardroom, ask opinions from board, but, to only assist with your final decision. The songwriter needs to make the final call. Barry Gordy from Motown, Hitsville USA, used to run it exactly the same way. And at the end of the session, he would ask the group: "IF YOU WERE DOWN TO YOUR LAST DOLLAR, WOULD YOU BUY A SANDWICH OR THIS RECORD?"
Ken Carmen
The Mondays
I hit up friends on AIM or via email and ask them to give me feedback on a new mix which I've uploaded to my server.
Be sure to ask musicians and non-musicians! They look at music very differently!
I never ever ever play a new song for the public until it is copywritten. I know in my heart that my song is MY song and if anybody rips off my new song which is like gold to me I would be shattered. My music is my soul, nobody can take it away from me.
Once my new tune is copywritten and pressed I perform it in public. Trust NO ONE in this world. Take the GIN BLOSSOMS for example. Doug Hopkins was kicked out of the band for drinking and they made his tunes a hit on Billboard so he shot himself in the mouth.
First I live with it and rely on my own judgment more than anything else.
Then I play it for my wife with no explanation. Just to see what she thinks and if she gets what the song is about.
Then I'll play it for one other friend who's been a publisher for many years.
But after many years in the business I've finally balanced other people's opinions and my own.
Often, if something's not right with the song, people will try to tell you what's wrong and how to fix it. What they're saying usually is not what's wrong.
The only thing you can depend on is that something might be wrong.
Then it's up to you as the creator to find out what it is and how to fix it.
my bandmate never hesitates to mention something in a song that doesn't work and it always ends up being something in the song that i was having doubts about anyway. beyond that playing the songs live has always been the best indicator. if i don't have any desire to play a song live it's usually a good reason to ditch it because if i'm not excited enough about it to tear into it live that means it's most likely not a very good song.
If it passes my own inner editor then it's fine. I'm very demanding of myself.
2 things:
songwriting workshop at hudson valley community college in troy ny- run by me
cat songwriters festival, may 30-31 in hudson ny...have your song critiqued by the pros
end of commercial
I don't look for feedback while I'm writing / when I just wrote one. I guess it depends on WHY you are writing.
If I would be a songwriter for someone else (not me) and / or it would be important that the songs fits in a certain concept, I might ask fellow musicians for their opinion.
I only write songs because I feel I need to write them. So they are completly subjective. Fortunatly some people like them. But I don't think I would write other songs just because somebody thinks I should.
Besides pop/rock, which I've done my whole life, I have been writing musical theatre for about 15 years, and in that community one's material is critiqued and workshopped constantly. We have a sort of "salon" of writers who meet monthly to listen to and critique the work of the others. But I've seldom done anything like that in my pop work.
When I collaborate, which I often do, the collaboration itself is the quality control -- I only collaborate with those who are in it for the purpose of creating the best song possible and who check their egos at the door.
When I write alone, which I do for my own singer-songwriter material, I am my own harshest critic and, really, I try to create something that would hold my own interest if I heard it as someone else's. I do not as a rule play a finished song for others for the purpose of notes; my personal material is just that, personal, and I don't have much of a need for acceptance by every single person who hears it.
On the other hand, if I'm creating a song for someone else or the general market then, yes, I look for notes from my most trusted songwriting buddies.
i like to record a new song and then leave it alone for a few days. when i pick it up again, i have forgotten "where i was" with it. that way, i get to hear it with brand new fresh ears - as if hearing it for the first time.
other people's opinions are worthwhile - but the most important opinion is your own. the songs that i have had the most sales and success with were the ones that blew ME away first and foremost.
i read in an interview where a big time CEO used a little trick each time he had to make a big decision. he used to photocopy the document he was working on and then throw the original away - thereby 'removing' himself from the pressure of the task at hand.
that is why we pay producers (and therapists). they are not attached to the feelings the way we are.
it is hard to be an artist, a producer, a marketing guru, an accountant, and a regular person - all at the same time.
but we love it now don't we?!)
thanks derek for all that you do!
bill
www.itunes.com/billwest
www.billwestmusic.com
When I accidently sent a recording of hangover to a group of friends
instead of the song that I promised them that I was sending, and "THEY LOVED IT", I was convinced that friends are not the 'sounding board' for new songs!
After 40+ years of songwriting, which has included an occasional hit, when my collaboraror and I
get done 'bouncing' it off of each other, we take it in to the studio and demo it...one of the guys in my band who worked with Elvis and
a bunch of big names has a 'sixth sense' about songs and isn't timid about letting you know his feelings!
We call it the "Ron-test"....
That's my story Derek and I'm sticking to it.....for now!
Rich
I've been in songwriter groups, and I really adore the community aspect of it. I think they are a powerful way to network, workout ideas, and stay connected & inspired.
That said, I've found that for me, songwriting is a pretty fragile thing. I've brought songs in, played them, and gotten wonderful feedback, constructive criticism, but something happens, and after I've played a song that is not finished, and opened it up that way - I completely loose energy to finish it. And the bummer is, it's my loss.
I love songwriter gatherings, and wish they worked for me, but I've got to honor the tunes coming through first.
The best feedback is an audiences response - and playing a new tune out helps tweak it.
I'll also play them one on one for artists I trust.
Everyone's process is different.
That's what's so crazy-making and magical about the whole thing.
by the time someone hears it, is it pretty much done
I was always fearful of people stealing the songs if I sent them to somewhere I didn't know.
But no one has knocked on my door about them either.
This is what I do for feedback:
http://www.em411.com
Sometimes they can be brutal, at other times very helpful. I like it.
When I first write a new song , I call up my sister Lisa and sing it for her over the phone. I can gauge by her reaction if it's any good. If she cries then I know it's good.
then I will call up some of my song writing friends and also sing it over the phone, while playing the guitar, a skill that many of us song writers have learned to do. If I get a thumbs up, then I might try it out on stage. If after singing it for my friends ( who are honest) and I hear well.. Rik.. it's OK ..but....
Then it goes into the song bin
Oh, I should have also said that the people I ask for feedback know that I want honest feedback. I tell them to be blatantly honest.
Personally, when I compose a song, I'm really self-thinking.
I don't care about others opinions, exept the opinion of my singer, because she take part of the composition process too.
I won't change anything because peoples don't like it, because then maybe I will not like it anymore, and the peoples who liked it before, won't like it anymore too.
We can't please anyone I think. And the first to be pleased, is yourself.
As a side note and in response to Derek's latest post (#23). I don't like to have any feedback too soon, as I don't want it to effect my voice as a writer.
I have found that feedback during the critical stage of creation doesn't help. I have to trust my own instincts. I'm the one who is going to be playing it, so it has to sit right with me. after the song is finished I don't mind criticism but it seems very subjective, people have their own tastes. one person will seem lukewarm about a song (which means they probably hate it) and then another will say it's their absolute favorite. I don't think I could ever do a songwriting workshop where they tear you apart, except maybe to learn new ways of playing guitar. The lyric writing and singing comes from a place that is too unknown to me, I think interference at that stage would be a disaster.
Good question Derek. When I need feed back for Ronnie's songs I usually go to internet DJ's. (the indie guys) I find most DJ's are pretty honest about whether a song will play well for their audience. Of course there are exceptions but so far my experience has been awesome. They really go in depth about what they think is good or needs to be improved.
I have a few friends who I respect and a spouse, all of whom are gutsy enough to tell me the truth. I play at a twice monthly jam where new material can be introduced and an audience can react. Until I write that million seller, I have more work to do..
I'm my worst critic when it comes to song writing. I don't need the imput of others. I need to feel confident to share it with my audience and stand fully behind what I'm singing about. I'm sharing myself, my feelings and experiences in my songs. Being authentic is my goal and I hope people can connect.
Marianne
I have been writing songs since 1965. My relationship with song is based on the concept that each song is like a child of mine. I write them, they exist. Occasionaly one is created with a specific purpose (I composed a Christmas song specifically for Sinatra--he rejected). I see song composition as expressing a comment on something that deserves comment (Bad love/good love, STDs, money and its importance in a variety of situations, cars, old buildings--There's thirty-five songs right there). I write songs because songs need to be--JH
Don't listen to it for a few days, or better longer, so that you can kinda hear it more like someone else, as opposed to the heat of passion, right after you wrote it. Objectivity?
Same goes for emails! If it's something angry or sensitive, read it a few days later, then decide whether to send it or not!
Now, if I could only follow my own advice like that, I'd be PERFECT!
See my 2/27/09 Twits about that
http://twitter.com/arkadymusic
which is how I found out about this page! - Derek's another ace!
If I simply write a song, and consider it complete right out of the box, that's plain arrogance, as well as a disservice to the song.
Some of my best songs came about *after* the tweaking. I once wrote a first draft of a song in a few hours, but it took months of tightening stuff before it really sounded like a "real song". Song songs simply have their own incubation time.
I've spent valuable hours in songwriting workshops with professional songwriters and others, which is really helpful. I've also met some good co-writers this way.
A few years ago Julia Brown and I used to host a songwriting circle of peers in my kitchen in Brooklyn, which we called "The Kitchen", and those were like sacred songwriting circles in which we listened to and critiqued each other's work.
We had lots of talented singer/songwriters come through "The Kitchen", which was a very supportive and honest atmosphere. I highly recommend setting up songwriting circles with people you respect.
Your girlfriend will always love your songs - that's easy! Instead, get around like-minded songwriters who will force you to bring your A Game to the table. Nothing like a little healthy competition to inspire you.
Having said all of that, I also believe that it's important for a songwriter to be ruthless when it comes to handling creative feedback from others. You can play your song for three different people, and get three different suggestions for change.
While it's important to be open to making a song the best it can be, it's also important to remain true to the song that's coming to life through you.
I get critiques from TAXI and Broadjam when submitting tunes to listings.....other than that, I write, record, and produce a final product that works for me. During the process, I'm always thinking of comments made by other writers and producers about what they think makes a great song....but the bottom line is if it works for me. If I want the truth, I play it for my wife....she's usually spot on with comments regarding the song, the performance, and the mix.
I HAVE A FEW HONEST PEOPLE THAT I LET LISTEN,WHO KNOW MUSIC AND ARE IN MY TARGET AUDIENCE AND A FEW WHO DONT AND AREN'T.SOMETIMES THE BEST WAY,I FIND IS TO GRAB SOMEONE YOU DON'T KNOW,WHO'S IN YOUR TARGET AUDIENCE, BUT DON'T TELL THEM IT'S YOUR MUSIC.YOU WILL USUALLY GET THE MOST UNBIASED OPINION THAT WAY.
If I think it's really good I'll call an old friend who I open for and play it over the phone, if he likes it I add it to my open mic list and play it as soon as possible to see what my other musician friends think of it. By then I know if it's a keeper or a dud.
Here is something off the norm maybe no one has tried or heard of here. Norah Jones had her first album analyzed before she broke out. This software predicted 8 songs would be a hit before anyone had heard of her. Sure all the usual play it out, get the fans response is the tried and true way to go about it, I'm not saying not to do that just that this is interesting.
http://artists.uplaya.com/
I am slowly building a team of people around me that I trust to give constructive feedback on my writing. It is certainly a subjective world, but when you have a team of people that you know will give their honest opinion and only have your growth in mind as a writer, I think it's imperative to get feedback. I have paid for that service also and have found that helpful too, but more and more I work with a team of people to give their thoughts.
If we want to write from our hearts and not do this for a living, forget other's opinions...but if you are seriously pursuing music for a career, you must learn how to craft your songs in way that moves people and many times we need help communicating in a way that people 'get it.'
My 2 cents : )
I play them live at my gigs without telling anyone who wrote the songs them and I gauge the reaction, when I have played them and get a good reaction I eventually announce that it is a self pinned number, and work off that . Keep up the great work derick , peace Martin Kenny .
You know now a days people go with the flow in what they r writing! Even though I've gotten and still get extreme criticism on my songs!!
There are so many ways to write songs. You can just look at something and write a song!!
I ask myself what am I doing here? What am I trying to put across in this song, this section, etc? If I can't answer that question I stop. When I know the answer to that question, I can get the sentiment out. After I get a part out I ask myself is this the best way to get my point across? If not I refine until I decide it's better to stop than continue.
I make game soundtracks for a living and the feedback has, over time, broken my musical ego in a million pieces. You have to be prepared to have something that you just created, be totally rejected. Sometimes it's a tune that you were absolutely sure was beyond incredible. Heck, maybe it was! but it doesn't fit the animation or theme. The bottom line is: Where is your music going to be played and what is it supposed to do? Shake butts? Jerk Tears? Cause Hysteria? In the end, you always have to think of your audience....even if the song is about you and how nobody understands you! You gotta stand back and look at it from different angles and viewpoints. Take nothing personal
for a long time it was mom. then i moved out on my own and haven't been able to find anyone as eager or available as her. . . most recently, ascap songwriter of the year, darrell scott, give me a book by jimmy webb called, "tunesmith". it's really the best book on songwriting i've ever seen, and in it he preaches (quite impressivley) the merits of not playing any new song for anyone before it's done. he warns against the pit-falls of even mentioning that you are in the middle of writing something. i liked it. for me, it had the ring of truth. thanks for asking.
When it's in the beginning stages, I don't want anyone's feedback. The initial inspiration is the most important part.
Once the song takes its form, I'll play it for my small group of musician friends who understand where I'm coming from musically. They'll chime in with arrangement/length ideas, say whether they "get it" or not.
Some songs I'm confident are "right there;" others, I need to be reassured I'm on the right track (e.g. does the "B" section belong in a different song entirely?) Criticism welcome.
And then when everything's pressed and released, I just want people to tell me how great they are!
If someone else gives me an idea I would have to give them credit.
The problem with a helping ear is that everyone has different taste, and very often the advice will not be neutral. Not every song is supposed to have that big chorus, or please everyone.
But what I do from time to time when I get stuck is this. I have a few friends (musicians by the way) who tend to like what I do so I know they won't try to turn my song into something it's not supposed to be. I'll call them and sing a few ideas (capo on the third fret, maybe 5th fret... bridge, no bridge???). When I hear a couple of people say the same thing, I will give it a try and take it from there.
For me personally, it depends on who I'm asking. There are particular friends/musicians whose brutally honest opinion i trust and respect, and I count on them to say, 'dude, I don't think you're even singing in the right range for your voice.'
Unless there's another motive (such as trying to get more listeners/fans) I think going to biased sources such as family & friends is useless, unless one finds it useful to hear, 'great job man, remember me when you're famous...'
I think there are two sources of useful feedback:
1) From people who know where you're coming from musically speaking, who can give constructive, objective feedback
-and-
2) From anonimous/unbiased people who can rate a song in simple terms: (not my style, didn't like, ok, good, love it)...the greater number of people the better. treat it like a case study: if 2 out of 4 people like it, could it just be chance? but it 2,000 out of 4,000 people like it, you just might be onto soemthing!
This is a great topic. Most people write for themselves, which is how it should be foremost. However, if you want mass appeal, you should simply consider how to appeal to as many audiences as possible.
There are some online resources like RedFizz.com and Garageband, but you might be waiting a while for a response and it might not be a very helpful response at that. Plus you have to have it recorded already.
The best way in my experience is to find 2 or 3 musician friends and get together once in a while over a beer, exchange new material, jam, listen. It's fun!
Good feedback is honest feedback, and friends should be comfortable exchanging this if they all have the same desire to appeal to the masses. Also, accept the fact that some songs should just sit on the back-burner, maybe for a while, maybe forever. I've taken songs to my band and they have been rejected, oh well. Good to know they sucked, rather than putting them out there for EVERYONE to know they sucked.
As a writer it's hard to know how songs will come across, because your head is so deep into it. My two cents.
Simple, I put it in the form of a ringtone for the masses to hear, usually free at first, and if it downloads a lot, one can almost judge by the ammount of dls whether it be successful or not. Music can be very subjective and variety of genres is worth the effort. So, experiment with diff sounds.
Thats just me though, Im a newby and as Manuel from FT used to say, I Know Nawthing.
One tip I learned, get to the point with ur song within 12 seconds and dont have long intros.
Cheers !
I upload the songs to MacJams.com and let the community there tell me what they think, taking it all with a grain of salt. Ultimately, if I don't like it, how far's it going to go?
MacJams folks know how to evaluate emotionally as well as technically, so I get a very good read from them. I also base progress on friends and fan feedback.
Again, though, it's gotta resonate within my spirit. And no matter how much someone else may like or dislike a tune - if it's working for me, that's the voice I have to trust.
Aloha -
Bing
Most of the songs I write start out on an online song writing competition, Song Fight!, and the most valuable part of that is the critiquing which goes on in the forum. Most of it is pretty objective, and an even mixture of praise and criticism.
A spinoff, somesongs, is oriented much more towards freeform song commentary, and while that community has been stagnating for a while, the ones who are the most steadfast there are also some of the best music critiquers I've ever seen (although sometimes they can get a little vicious for some peoples' tastes).
I used to have a roommate who was also a writer, he was a total lyric guy and not so strong with chords and melody, me the opposite. So we complimented each other well. I still email him time-to-time.
I'm also planning a songwriters get together, on the Jack Hardy model. Get four writers (preferably who come from very different styles of music) and have them present unfinished work to be constructively criticized by the others. I've done this in other cities and felt it's worked out really well.
But for me, all the work that goes into a song is irrelevant to the way the audience reacts. I vet to decide what of what I'm writing is stage worthy. But until I play it for an audience, I have no sense of whether or not it's good. So I do a lot of open mics to work out newer stuff.
THERE IS SO MENY SONG WRITERS OUT THERE. I RELLY DON'T TRY. I AM A SELF TOUGH MUSICAN AND LOVE PLAYING OTHER PEOPLE MUSIC, OR WITH SOMEONE.I BEEN IN IT SO LONG, I JUST LOVE PLAYING AND SINGING.
I also attended Berklee and have been working as a live musician in Los Angeles. There is a workshop of Berklee Songwriters here once a month which is pretty helpful.
However, the most useful thing I found is to actually play the song live at my regular gigs or an open mic; I usually try the song in a few different venues. Then I get a real idea of what works or doesn't by gauging the audience's reaction. I usually tweak the song at least once or twice before I consider it finished.
I like a mix of feedback--
At open mics and workshops, you get feedback from other songwriters so it can be helpful in technical ways/song form/lyrics/chords, etc. but you don't always get an honest "gut" reaction.
Non-musicians know if they like it or not but can't usually tell you why. The best part is when I play an original at a restaurant mixed in with covers and people ask "who wrote that last song?" Then I know the song is ready...
The songs I've written don't sound alike they r all totally different! Some of my other songs that I have not had arranged yet sound like some of the songs on my cd but not really!! They r all different!!
I write songs that turn on the woman that I love. Those are the songs that come naturally to me. Feedback is a matter of reading body language and then no more than a few simple questions. Starting with something to say can prevent a lot of other revision measures.
Happy writing.
My songs come with lyrics first. That way, I can focus on what I feel needs to be told in order to get the story across as simply as possible. Melodies come later.
I've had my songs (in finished or nearly finished form) critiqued by known (published/recorded) songwriters. One in particular was shot down by several on a panel. This same song was later picked to go on a recording, nationally released, due to it's own uniqueness, both in melody/chord structure and lyrical sense.
It's all subjective. The feedback from that one didn't hurt (anything other than my young songwriter's feelings) and it pleased the artist so much that they didn't even do much in changing the arrangement.
Some folks focus on subject matter (is it clearly understood by everyone who hears it?) and some are caught up in the chord structure and melody (and the lyrics could be about a mashed cat in the road).
I have one on the books to do my first co-write with sometime before too long. I'm looking forward to collaborating with that person, especially since it's my idea, a subject he had wanted to write about and he's already got a killer track record of writing good songs.
We'll feedback each other directly. I think that will be a more productive form of feedback. BTW, this same co-writer/collaborator was on that aforementioned panel (see above).
Limit the number of people one gets feedback from and at the same time make sure it's people one respects. 3 to 4 at the most and optimum 2 to 3. Too many ideas destroys the focus.
One must know what their intent is with the song and through all the feedback stay focused on the intention of the song.
Every great artist, composer, songwriter, singer, sports figure, successful book writer and anyone of great fame and/or impact has or had mentors, teachers and coaches to point out the weak spots. We ALL need feedback of some kind all through our careers, from beginner to advanced.
If the song has a religious or Christian theme, there is a Yahoo group that will take a look at it.
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/CatholicSongwritersForum/
The best art of any kind has to come from the "soul" or basic instincts of the artist. The difference is, some have more talent than others. Either the lyrics, or the melodic hook, really comes through. The melodic hook seems to be the more important thing in producing a "hit"; I never liked to admit that before, because I always start first with an idea about a lyric line. But the song is going NOWHERE without a melodic hook. The only place where lyrics are more important, I think, is in musical theater.
I really believe the more people involved in writing a song or critiquing it, the more contrived it gets, the more confused the songwriter gets, and the magic that sparked the song in the beginning, is greatly at risk of being lost. In fact, for me, if I can't write a song in 1 hour's time, I let the idea go and wait for another. It's all there, very quickly for me, if I've really got something worthy.
I joined a support network in Philadelphia - Philadelphia Area Songwriters Alliance (PASA). Membership consists of songshare events at member homes where new songs are debuted and critiqued. Very supportive non-judgemental crits help members to revise songs.
If I can remember it the next day I feel it's good then playing it out at a festival I watch and listen to feedback from audience
Derek; Great question! All and more is the answer.When I write a song and think it's " done " I play it for close friends, musicians buddies and especially my wife. She is objective and one wrinkled eyebrow is worth a thousand words! Then,if I can get out and incorporate it into my live gigs, I watch people. I watch for their attention, their reactions, bodily movements and the applause. Sometimes I won't say it's my song the first time I play it live. Depends on the situation. With my new CD, although I sell as many as possible, I e-mail out tons of free mp3 versions of select songs and I ask for actual feedback. That works real well!
Bruce
i write songs for a band called ingredients the band. i record a bunch of demos myself and show the band, i gauge how good the song is partly by my original instinct combine with the level on enthusiasm of the band. for me it's about keeping the band's interest in the music, they also help call the songs live. Also the other band members show fans the demos, the fans let me know what they like. after a while i have a better idea of what my guys enjoy and i have increased pressure writing more stuff. I can tell my songs are enjoyable because we play them for years and laugh.
When I have finished composing a song,or piece of music,I will play to a variety of my 'musician friends' who compose/write in many different genres.This way I can gauge a response,or a feeling on the song/piece. However,as one of your bloggers suggested,this can confuse a songwriter even more so.I do feel,all musicians/composers 'Know' when they have written a good song...it's just an initial gut feeling.My favourite reaction is when someone will say to me "your song depressed me a little"I think "Bingo! I got an emotional response".The word 'depressed' does not come across as a negative for me in instances like that. My prime ambition as a composer/songwriter is to make the hairs stand up on the back of the listeners neck.If i can do that...I'm a happy man,and if it makes the hairs stand up on mine...that's even better.
If I am writing a song for a band then i will ask for opinions, thoughts etc from the members but i have never actively asked an audience or member of the public for a song critique. i have learnt not to write songs in stone and to re-assess a song after not hearing it for a few weeks. The two problems as i see it are objectivity on the one hand and finding someone who can see and explain any flaws and improvements on the other.
to what derek said "does that mean your song can't be improved?"
I think they can and do get improved over time, from playing, and also in the recording process. I just think that until they reach a certain point they should be left alone from outside input, to have their own voice.
Did Dylan ask what others thought?
I doubt true songwriters do. If its real for them, and the purpose isnt to appeal to anyone other than there true self..then I dont think other opinions matter, unless the imput relates to what to leave in or out, or a musical decision in relation to dynamics. Writers write.
Since I just write and pitch country and not be the artist now I write the tune put it on songramp.com or songu.com and see what comments are left. Some writers will see something that I've missed.
I've been writing so long now I pretty much can nail the tune pretty close to what will work, Sometimes I use a co writer that can polish what I have. Out of eight I've written last month 4 have been picked up by publishers
in Nashville , there always the upbeat ones. The ballads are a hard sell to the pubs for me
G. F. Mlely, whom I represent, offered this: "For me, the music has to be adventurous. Good lyric writers abound, but true composers are much harder to find in America's songwriting biz. At least surprise me with the chord sequence. How about the lydian instead of the (yawn) ionic scale, for a change. Bring me something that hasn't been done to death - musically speaking."
It may be a lofty idea, but I consider music art.I just slap notes to the canvas in a way that sound's cool to me.I've never done music for anyone else, it's great if someone likes it, but it's not a concern when writing.When it's a collaborative effort it's necessary, but when I'm writing alone I finish it alone with little influence.
Here's my thought, when you do a painting, you stretch canvas, do your work clean off the edges, and then frame and light it.If you have too much outside influence during writing, it's like stretching, framing, and lighting the canvas before you start painting, then you take great care in not getting paint on the frame and light, effectively stifling the art process.Then again many people think I'm crazy.
A singer/songwriter named Rick Barry does a monthly showcase in Asbury Park called Works In Progress, where several musicians play only new or unfinished songs. Great idea. I've been known to bring a song I'm working to an open mic night and get feedback that way, since the crowds at those things are almost always other musicians. There are quite a few songs that I finished but didnt feel were good enough to record or play in public. Some musicians need to learn how to edit themselves; none of us are Mozart and few of us only write great songs.
Well, the few times I've paid for critique I was disappointed. It didn't help me at all. There are certain things you can't or shouldn't change anyways just because one dude in California said so. That's just one point of view. And remember, they are paid to do that. Feedback can be good, but learn to pick out what will really benefit your craft.
too many cooks
and art is not about market research
I work on a piece until I finish...then...I leave it for a week. If, when i come back...I think it's crap...I'll go back in and rework. I repeat the process until I can come back and really like the music and the production.
I never ask my dogs...their advice always sounds like a bunch of barking...and who needs that!
There are so many different genres, and people react so differently to every type. I find it impossible to take criticism seriously. Not only that, a song may work for someone on a particular day at a particular moment, but be borderline offensive another day.
If a song has personality, it will be interesting whatever musical mistakes you've made. But if you're worried about how it will be received, then, the odds are that it's pretty flat and you're hoping someone else sees something worthwhile in it.
Rich #2
Of course, Library of Congress(I really hate them)and BMI registration is paramount!
I forgot, besides the "Ron-test", we put our new songs up on Broadjam where to date we've had almost one thousand reviews....musicians from that site will e-mail each other, back and forth, about a particular song so that's a good thing too!
Derek -
My writing process isn't about anyone's perspective but my own. I don't feel that art should be a democratic process. No one else sees or hears what I see and hear, so no one else is going to come up with what I'm going to come up with. That is what I have to contribute to the culture, not my ability to compile a set of public opinions. I am not a politician, and I object strongly to the creative industry that is largely run in a political manner. We are all individuals, and we should contribute our individualness - not our distillation of what we think someone else wants to hear.
I play in a few other people's groups, and I don't tell them how to write their tunes! Though I'll give positive and constructive feedback if they ask.
I view music and therefore songs as naturally occurring formations, something like crystals. I have written a few in collaboration with poet or musician friends, and some of those are wonderful! But I wouldn't tell my poet friends how to fix their words, unless I was invited to do so - and although there is value to writing workshops, I have never fared well in those either. No one else ever seems to get what it is I'm after...
I don't see "improving" a song as relevant to the capturing of an expression. Would you tell Picasso how to "improve" a painting? Or, not to put myself on a level with Picasso, would you tell the guy drawing with chalk on the street corner how to "improve" his work?
I guess you're free to do that, if you want to, or if he asks. But I would rather hear a creative artist's expression (and we are all creative artists, every living being) of their own movement through the universe than listen to something created by consensus.
That said, everyone should do what feels right to them. I guess I take a little bit of offense at this:
"TO THOSE THAT SAY THEY DON’T SEEK FEEDBACK:
Does that mean your songs can not be improved?
Or that they can be improved, but only you know how to improve it?
Or that others might have great suggestions for improvements, but you just don’t want to hear it?"
...as it implies "we" who don't seek feedback are somehow "wrong" - whereas I could just as well imply that if you DO seek feedback, you are either a sycophantic attention junkie or lack the necessary confidence to create "real" or "meaningful" art on your own ...
But I don't think either of those things has to be true. And it is definitely the case that some of my best work would never have been written if I'd listened to the people around me.
I live and work alone. The only way I can get feedback on a new song is to play it at open-mic nights, which I attend here in Dublin. First I announce that this song is brand new and this is the first time to have it played in public. As I play the song I watch people, foot tapping is a good indication. If I see feet tapping then I feel that the song is working. I also watch faces and can read the attention they are giving or when they look away or begin to talk I know I have lost their attention. I make a mental note at what point they begin to lose interest, this is an indication to me of a weak point in the song. When I finish playing I listen to what people say to me. Comments can range from. "A bit too long". To. "Great song Tarlach." I also use my gut feeling when writing the song. Usually I can tell if it is working or not. Hard to describe this process as it is internal. Easiest way to describe it is to say. "It feels right." Sometimes a song just arrives fully formed, ready to go. All I have to do is play the song a lot and develop my depth of expression, my connection with the emotion in the song. The deeper this connection the better the performance and the better the connection with people listening.
Other songs need a bit more work. To get to the heart of the subject.
Develop a language to express the truth of what I am attempting to say in the song. Live playing is for me the best way to judge the reaction or impact a song has. My goal is to touch the listener and connect with them. If the song does this it is working, if not I usually consider the song in need of more work. Thank you for your interest.
Open Mic nights are good to gauge audience feedback, I perform a combination of shows with my full band and a lot of singer songwriter type solo shows at restaurants and small pubs. I find that the smaller venues are a good gauge for what works. Sprinkle in popular covers with your originals and see how folks related to your songs in the context of you as a presenter/performer of material in general.
I don't buy the Gweneth quote rather I subscribe to the thinking that if you cant present your material in a way that audiences connect with then maybe you need to do more work (allowing of course for understated metaphor that isnt trite, cheezy or obvious or perhaps melodic, harmonic, rhythmic or "hook" considerations).
There is so much to the art of songwriting that there are no magic answers or approaches but it is usually obvious when something works and something doesn't.
My 2 cents for what its worth . . .
This is what I really miss about working in a band context instead of how I'm now working solo. Bandmates can help a lot on honest feedback. Lately I record really rough demos of twice as much material as I'll put on my album & then I said it out to ten friends asking to vote the songs from 1-4 stars.
As with most jazz musicians/composers I write tunes that are mostly very personal and try to tell a story. Sometimes I get too involved in the harmony or an overly complicated melody and the story loses it's clarity. I usually rely on my former teacher and a few close friends to point that out! I also write some tunes with a sale value in mind. These I tend to play on gigs and gauge the audience reaction... deathly silence means something's got to change!
I actually do this for bands. I work as a Musical Director for bands who are writing and creating music. I attend rehearsals, some writing sessions, and other creative sessions. I offer advice on the songs, stage presence... EVERYTHING with a view to either then signing the band myself, or recommending them to other labels and producers.
Foremost it all depends on how strong YOU feel about the tune, but if you want someone's honest, constructive feedback one way is to consider the song as a product to pitch and in doing so know that the mood of the song is better received if it fits the mood of the 'moment' so that it can be better appreciated. i.e don't pitch a laid back song to someone amped up and ready to go out the door for a party or a thrashing high energy song Sunday morning when people are kicked back. Music/art is totally subjective and a mood thing. Might be smart to wait for the right timing to present your ideas...
I live in a built-in critiquing environment since I've played in a trio for over 18 years now with the same two women. Typically, I bring a song in to rehearsal and ask for feedback. Which verse should I keep? Which one should I throw out? Their answer: "keep 'em both." I never thought of that option, so I do. Then I might submit that same song to a contest where the judges give written feedback. Typically, they say, "it needs something to connect verse on with three," so I sit down and write a bridge. When it seems complete to me, we record it.
I've been to the kind of song critiques you described at song writing retreats. Most feedback in those sessions tends to get on the picky side, like, "can't you find an Anglo-Saxon word for that?" And sometimes you just want a Latin-based, multi-syllable word in your song anyway. I don't mind those kinds of critiques, but in the end, the writer is owner and must decide which feedback to use and which to throw away.
Hey Derek,
Love your stimulation.
I'm a member of TAXI so often get a feedback I don't necessarily agree with, but usually find something useful in their critique.
They are well meaning, but are intrinsically tied up with what's happening right now.
I have a good friend who is not afraid to tell me what he sees and hears. We don't always agree, but I have changed lyrics many times with things he has suggested.
Songwriting without a collaborator is an "Ivory Tower" type of experience so it is important to get feedback, but in the end we can't listen to too many voices or it will destroy us. Most often we are our own worse critic...Jack Walker
When it comes to finding out what people thing about a one of my new original songs, I often believe in the trial by fire method. I either record it in my home studio in some semi finished fashion and upload it to a variety of web locations such as the Podsafe Network, or I perform it live at one of my gigs to see what people think. Sometimes I run it by my wife or a friend or two, but usually I like to just put it out there.
This is true of both solo acoustic original songs as well as band type original songs. In the case of the band we work out all the bugs at home the present them live or recorded and basically see what happens. Sometimes if the crowd is a familiar one I will tell them that it is a new original tune so they may pay closer attention. Or if it is a crowd of strangers I will just do it and not say anything to see what the reaction is.
I don’t really want to have people critiquing the songs note by note or line by line because anyone can take any tune no matter how great and rip it apart when they look at it in detail. Most people don’t really pay that close attention to the minutia of a song, they just listen to the whole package. And that is what I offer them. It is a pass/fail kind of thing. They either like it or they don’t. Often I do this with several different audiences to see how each will react. You can also get different reactions from the same type of crowd to the same song depending upon the mood of the audience on a given night. So the more the merrier.
Any songwriting critique-circles, previously successful songwriters who have found a place in the biz, and generally anyone who fosters 'competition' among songwriters are the reason(s) for the TERRIBLE songwriting amongst pop/rock/country today. If it were up to the hacks on Music Row, for example, Visions of Johanna would have never been written.
I use a real-time audio collaboration plug-in called Virtual Glass to do real time writing/music critique with music partners anywhere in the world! The plug-in is free and works with all music software applications that support plug-ins. Mac only as of now, but Win version forthcoming. Download here:
Virtual Glass Plug-in (RTAS, AU, VST):
https://www.esession.com/virtualglassdownload/VirtualGlassInstaller.pkg.zip
I use a number of ways to get feedback on pieces that I am writing. I belong to a couple of forums where we discuss each others music and styles in general. These places do have there "yes" guys who seem to like everything that everyone presents but there are those few (and some with excellent credentials, I might add) that genuinely listen and give much needed response to what one is trying to accomplish.
I also bounce things of close friends and relatives who are also in the music business. Some offer great insights and ideas to help move the creation process along. Some are college professors and others are just good listeners.
I ask my family, and friends who I used to gig with, and try them out with an English publisher I deal with. I write country songs mainly.
The comments have been good mostly.
Any negative remarks and I rewrite the song.
Everybody is a critic, everybody has something to say. What I look for is what each critique offers. Even when approaching "friends" I will NOT say "so what do you think" with a smile on my face. I will say "tell me what you didn't like about it", then see what their reaction is. Art is subjective, but music composition does have some hard and fast rules when you looking to broaden your market.
When I started out I played my songs for everyone and anyone who would listen. I usually got very positive feedback. But sometimes not. Then more and more I found that people would make criticisms based on some personal agenda or misunderstanding or narrow scope. And it was rare that it helped me in any way. How would anyone else know what I'm trying to accomplish?
These days once I consider a song "finished" I take it to the clubs. I still basically play for everyone and anyone who will listen. But the difference these days is that I don't really look for, or even want, anyone's critique. It's not that I'm above criticism or praise. It's more that once I get a song to where I like it, why would I need someone else to validate it for me.
Having said all that, I admit that it sure feels good to get that big applause. And it hurts when someone tears it apart (or worse, ignores it).
But I think we have enough cookie cutter commodities in our faces every day. I'm aiming for something that's me - uniquely imperfect.........
I also went to berklee and I feel fortunate having met so many different musicians there that I have a lot of different ears that I can play new ideas for. I also think about what different teachers have told me. Hal Crook recommends to always record yourself and listen back. I always try to record myself practicing or performing, This I find is especially helpful during rehearsals to hear how new material sounds. I'm also constantly thinking of how I want the music to sound. It always sounds one way when I write it and totally different when I put it in front of a band. Sometimes I have to change the orchestration to see what works best. Lately I've been trying to write a bunch of ideas and then come back to them later with a new perspective on it. I have tons of unfinished songs that I didn't finish yet, because I haven't heard a new way to work with the material. I'm also very critical about what I put out for people to hear, I want to make sure that I like it and if I enjoy than I hope other people will to.
The more songs I write, the less I care about other people's opinions. I'm usually writing and recording at the same time which makes it possible to listen to the song over and over again afterwards. If it gets me hooked then it's a good one, if it won't let me go the next few days then it's a great one and if I want to turn it off, it's just not the right time for it or I have to make some improvements. The songs that are still grabbing my attention months later are usually the ones that make it onto an album or a liveshow.
Personally I don't think much of "professional" feedback. As was said before, it's much too subjective to decide whether or not you like a song. If you want to learn how to write a hit single, then maybe that might help. But even in that case I tend to believe that the REALLY good ones lasting forever aren't written with the help of some formular but rather out of some special magical moment.
It's the "High Fidelity" philosophy
from the movie
someone says "Yeah this is a great song."
then you say "I know."
After writing songs for a long time, (which were more for me than anyone else), I started buying songwriting books; at least 4 from Berkeley College of Music and others. What a mass of confusion.
One book would say don't rhyme your words, blah and more blah. So I went on a quest to start writing songs that were each different. (some rhymed some didn't, and on and on). I would send a song out to be looked at, and it would get trashed apart.
Then I slopped something together in a few minutes and submitted it to makeastar.com (many years ago) and they said it got chosen 16 out of 8000 to be submitted for their competition, that I didn't win. (dahhh?, I even played the song out of time and it at least got picked for the competition!!).
Then I got to meet the author of one of the songwriting books I had in San Diego folk alliance(@4 years ago) John Braheny (same year I met Derrick) and he gave me the best advice ever" "Write from your heart and you can't go wrong".
So I don't really care what others think of my songs. I write them for myself first, and what I have found is that some songs that I don't think are good people purchase more than anything.
I would rather spend my time writing 20 songs than rehashing one song over and over with a person that wants to change everything with it. Its like submitting your dreams to someone for critique. (its MY dream NOT yours!)
My advice would be to write as many songs as you can and don't spend a ton of time on one song; then play them for your audience they will let you know what they like, and they usually don't say anything about what they don't like.
Most of the songwriters that I have seen "make it" (whatever that means) wrote at least 250-500 songs before they found their own way, they didn't submit their songs to anyone, why should we?
I normally play a new song to a musician friend just before the final polishing stage just to get an initial reaction - I find the song often comes out different at this point, and gives me an idea of what I still need to work on. I recently played a showcase to an A&R agency and received detailed feedback on the songs. Getting impartial criticism is invaluable. I didn't like everything they said at first, but once I put aside my ego I realised there were areas of my songwriting that could still be improved. This is the only way to learn!
There's a phenomenon my colleagues and I call Song High, under the influence of which I think every song is brilliant for approximately 2 weeks after I write it. Only after Song High subsides can I hope to get any objectivity about a tune.
In the 80s I was one of the founders of a forum in New York called Song Party. We considered ourselves to be "lifers" as opposed to what we called Sunday Songwriters. It was an incredible support group, and I really recommend starting such groups with like-minded souls. We met every 2 weeks for 4 years. That plus a slew of classes, workshops, industry events, etc. gave me many brutal reality checks. I also had a great mentor, Doc Pomus.
These days I rely on a few trusted friends, colleagues and co-writers... and of course the business folks we submit material to constantly. If I don't hear "OHMYGAWD THIS IS THE GREATEST SONG I'VE EVER HEARD" then I might as well toss it out, because no one wants an album cut. They only want one-listen frying-pan-over-the-head hit singles! And if I'm really lucky have a few more of those in me...
Thoughts about songwriting:
I like to play songs I write for new ears to get feedback. Also,
the advantage to playing in a band includes instant feedback from the other players. I never force a tune into the group's repertoire. I trust the people I play with and if a song agrees with everyone, it usually has a place on stage in front of the audience. The trick hear is knowing when to let a song die, or just knowing the song was not meant for that moment or that specific application.
Peace and Pretzels,
Maury R. (Hypnotic Clambake's Accordionist)
well I studied Music in college and Loved the opprtunity about college that you have The ability to Council with The music instructors and Proffesors...Especially about Musical form and key!
When it comet to writing in Key I Try to Stick to the Rules aware you can Break a Rule for a good Recording!
the lyrics I write first..second i Begin By finding other musical Works and Studing how they have written...
comparing my ideas and finally I both Compose and Re-compose my lyrics to harmonize With The Sounds..do the Very Best I Can with My voice...when it is Well rehersed I perform and seek audience Feedback..as a solo Act it is diffrent then when I perform with a Band...when People Buy CD's it Tells Me I am doing Something right!
People do not all use computers in The Bar..and where they do use computers they don't neccesarilly buy on the Computer...I use the computer for exposure for those whom might seek to Listen To My music more than once
I have written literally hundreds of songs over the years. When I was younger, I would play them for friends and relatives and give out tapes. Sometimes I would get to perform and could gauge audience reaction. I don't seek much feedback anymore. I have my recording partner, who gives good feedback and sometimes co-writes with me. Usually, with my technical experience at crafting structure and lyrics together, a song's impact is more dependent on how strongly I felt about writing it than anything else. I think that was true, even before I had this much behind me. If you feel it, craft it tightly, and people will sense the authenticity.
Hmm. Good question Derek. In regards to "feedback" I have one friend I count on, he won't sugar coat something if it's WACK. Granted ONE person telling you "the work is great" or "That stinks" is not the smartest thing right now I am trying to find younger people (cousins in their teens/early college) for my focus group...when I am looking to aim "that music at that audience"
Derek,
I generally keep it to myself but would love to find other songwriters interested in critique and discussion. I've thought about joining songwriting groups but can't seem to commit. So, my music will generally get road tested at shows and that's it. I guess I'm judge, jury, and progenitor.
I started writing songs for self expression, personal release or for telling a story about something that was important to me or others. I have always been very cautious and particular about how a tell the story. The little things are important. For example, I don't follow any traditional song structure or pattern. This is my story, my song, I am going to create it the way I hear it. I don't normally listen to criticism, I am not writing for others so much or for making hit songs. This is my art and vision I am sharing with you. I do it for the freedom or creation and having something that has not been tampered with.
If you have to ask if it's a good song, than it isn't.
Yo Mr Sivers I give a totally uncontrolled rendishion of the Maddness of the song to any one in range if I ever see them again if they in the few second's they are trying to escape sing a line or two my job is Done.
There's a small group of friends/peers that I may show a song in progress, but for the most part, I do it more for the response that the song gets.
I may use the criticism that I get for future reference, moreso than going back to rewrite or restructure the song in question.
I agree with some of the previous posts that music is very subjective and you're never going to please everyone out there, so pleasing yourself artistically is the priority.
My wife is my biggest "critic". Since she's been with me for 36 years and is the first to hear every song I write. I get her feedback, whether I want it or not, but her initial reaction has historically been a good indicator.
I am a member of a local songwriting group and we meet monthly to share new songs and provide/receive feedback. This is helpful as a peer review, though the critique is very informal and subjective. So I sometimes self-assess my songs with checklists developed by professionals - which provides great guidance.
I use Open Mics to get a broader audience reaction to new songs and also to practice the delivery and perfect the song as I get a better feel for the flow of the lyrics and music by doing it in front of a live audience. I watch people's faces. Is the song interesting? Am I holding their attention? Can they understand the lyrics? I often change melodies and lyrics after performing them a few times to improve the flow (singability and playability).
Recording the song and listenening to it as I drive helps me identify parts that need work. Letting friends listen to the recording and soliciting feedback helps as well.
I've gone the route of paid critiques, but I find that these tend to be focused on objectives that may or may not be mine. If you are looking to write a "hit" song then a professional paid critique is appropriate but can also be a real eye-opener.
Dear Derek,
Thank you for remembering me and asking to visit your website to leave my thoughts.
For all you song writers out there, when you compose or write a song; make sure you circle around 3 to 4 chords. Let your melody be simple (easy to remember) and catchy.
Ask whoever you can for their opinion on your song, and see how
often they sing it or hum it when you're around them. The more they sing it -- the more they love it.
Keep your arrangements simple and
dynamically tight. Ideally, it's best to have musicians in your band
who know what to do and don't have to be told. They should add to your music, unless you want some specific arrangements etc.,
Take the world's most famous songs
and spend time researching it and find out for yourself, what made them what they are today.
DON'T copy other musicians, but use them as an inspiration to better your musical skills.
Your lyrics should be from your heart and write about what you
want to say to the world. Make a statement, whether people think it is bizarre or silly. WRITE IT! AND SING IT! But for heavens sake, avoid bad language and such like
negative emotions.
Take risks, cause if you don't,
you won't get anywhere. I am not a religious person, but this is true:
I get my inspiration from Jesus. He is my Lord and Savior and if
you want to do extraordinary things, JESUS is the way, the truth and the life. Get Jesus into your life, he will do awesome things for you and all who you
pray for.
Just pray this prayer and you will
experience the BEST LIFE EVER:
"Lord Jesus, I invite you into my heart anew today, and I ask forgiveness for all of my sin. I repent for all my sins and I will not sin again. Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins and for forgiving me of them through your shed blood for me on the cross.
Please take away all the sinful "old things" in my heart that defile me, and replace them with the "good things" that you desire to grow in to my life. Please wash away all the sinful crud and tendencies toward evil and replace them with a hunger and thirst for your righteousness.
I need your help, Lord God, in living this new life in Christ.
Please send your Holy Spirit afresh into my life to help me, heal me, deliver me, lead me and transform me.
In Jesus Christ I pray, Amen." Get a bible and read these verses below:
(Mark 7:21-23 & 2 Corinthians 5:17)
NOW WATCH THE CHANGE, YOU WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN.
God Bless You All,
Best Regards,
Sajjid Manuel
When in doubt, wear it out. I've learned after 33 years when a song's not done. Now it's learning when it is and not fooling with it anymore.
I'm also with KG, getting someone else to sing your song is a great idea! However, here's something interesting......if they can't sing it, you've created a singular style, a niche, which is where artists want to be if they're going to promote to an industry that refuses to let us do what we want and run all over the place, try everything. Now it's about how easily it can be packaged, not how innovative or eclectic we can be. If we want to sell bucketsful of CDs anyway.
I was a member of Taxi for a couple of years and picked up some solid friendships, some wickedly good cowriters and a better knowledge of the industry, for better or worse. It's a business, alright. :p That doesn't mean we can't forge ahead and do what we want though and with clever marketing, we can do a lot to get our albums and songs out there.
Hey Derek ... cool meeting you at Folk Alliance. I constantly re-write songs to try to make them better, sometimes even after recording them & putting them out on an album or CD. With a new song, I play it a lot, both to remember it & look for spots it's weak and for ways to make it have more impact, or to spot cool new parts or melodies, & even to make it shorter where I can. I take new songs to open mics to get feedback. I don't trust my friends patting me on the back type opinions - instead I look for the in the moment audience reaction to the song - are they smiling, tapping their toes, laughing, paying attention, connecting. I don't think there is any substitution for playing a new song as many times as you can until you get it the way you want.
I am a CPA by profession. I love writing songs and playing and singing in my studio and hope to get a sonwriting contract at some point. What I do is upload my song to my website and send a link to everyone in my contacts list. That is about 300+ people. So, it is not only family and friends it includes clients many who never knew I was a musician. I ask for feedback either by email or in my guestbook. Broadjam is another avenue but the critiques are not from the most experienced musicians so they aren't much help. They usually say whether they like the song or not and don't very often provide real meaningful feedback.
After I do a rough demo, I generally send a new song to a handful of friends who are always very honest with me. I find there are VERY few people in this world, professional music people included, that can hear an unproduced song and see past the lack of production to critique the actual writing. The friends I send my stuff to are somewhat compromised in that area as well, but have learned how to listen for the value of the song itself. One gets hung up on tone and finds little value in songs that are not in his finite list of styles he likes, another tends to fall in love with the first thing he hears (if it's good) and hates revisions, another is a lyric freak. So the feedback I get is varied. Therefore I take it all in, think about what each says, decide what needs to fixed and what was a personal opinion that few people will share, and proceed to rip apart my song and fix what's fixable. The key things for me are:
1) view all critiques as constructive, even if you don't like them
2) don't take it personally
3) don't be so in love with any aspect of a song that you can't see changing it
4) realize that a song often starts out as one thing and ends as another (e.g. one song I wrote started out as a sort Beatles "Two of Us" groove that begged for a 12-string, but ended up much slower with a percussive 6-str plucking style - the Beatle thing didn't work)
5) be willing to analyze constructive critiques and accept what makes sense, and throw away what doesn't
6) understand that nobody has in their head what you do when you write the song - including imaginary arrangements to be added someday.
Playing a song for a general audience tells me NOTHING, unless the song is finalized and completely produced, since most people can't see past bells and whistles. Am I just being cynical? Well, look at how many people eat McDonald's hamburgers regularly. (No offense to the McDonalds lovers - different strokes for different folks - that's just the e.g. I usually use).
Songwriting is a natural flow of the expression of emotion in the moment. As such it must be a Zen experience. Two scenarios result from this. Either I'll write a song in totality recording it and writing it in the same instant(this is rare but when it happens it is oh so powerful). Or I'll get the first verse and chorus right away and then know that I have the tail end of the song which means all I have to do is reach in and there is the whole thing.
If you second guess a song you've lost your momentum and anything that you come up with will be contrived.
If you rely on others for their opinions then you are asking to be second guessed on a song and in that case too it will be contrived.
You should always strive for a pure expression which means trust yourself. If you can't do this stop writing until you can. There is really no other way around it.
I'm very picky about who hears my unfinished stuff. A lot of people will always tell you you're great - which doesn't help. Even if you are great, you can be better. I have a few friends I can count on to be brutally honest and it's always good to hear that feedback/criticism. There is something to be said about writing for yourself first. However, it's tough to stick to what you know but still grow as an artist. Having someone around to tell you if that song sounds the same as the other, or you tried WAAY to hard to change it up, is priceless.
When I have finished composing a song,or piece of music,I will play to a variety of my 'musician friends' who compose/write in many different genres.This way I can gauge a response,or a feeling on the song/piece.
My partner has to be my best critic,as she has a very wide taste in music and is often brutally honest when I ask her opinions.
However,as one of your bloggers suggested,this can confuse a songwriter even more so.I do feel,all musicians/composers 'Know' when they have written a good song...it's just an initial gut feeling.My favourite reaction is when someone will say to me "your song depressed me a little"I think "Bingo! I got an emotional response".The word 'depressed' does not come across as a negative for me in instances like that. My prime ambition as a composer/songwriter is to make the hairs stand up on the back of the listeners neck.If i can do that...I'm a happy man,and if it makes the hairs stand up on mine...that's even better.
I have almost never had a song co-writer. Generally I bring my songs to the band. If they are into them we start arranging them and then play them live. I count on my bandmates' critique to strenghthen the material i.e. adjust tempo or feel......Have done a few songs at gigs once or twice and then never played them again just cause I thought that they didn't work. Would love to try writing with someone else more often.
By the time anyone hears one of my songs it's done. I make music because it's a form of art and I guess, expression. If someone were to offer me ways to "improve" a song it wouldn't be my true piece of work any longer. Nothing wrong with collaborating it's just not the route I take. As for feedback, when I play my songs for people and they don't leave it means they like them.
I've had a few "experts" critique my stuff and they always nitpick. They never buy an album or support an artist like me so I tend to listen to the folks who actually pay me for my music, which is just regular folks who like what they like without someone telling them to like it.
Thank you...J.C.
Those Berklee songwriting classes were awesome!
I now write most of my songs for young children. I get to test out and fine tune my material in classrooms all over the Boston area-what a luxury! That audience response is essential. My wife and teenage boys are brutally honest as well, and won't hesitate to point out a line that seems forced or lackluster. I record and listen to my songs over and over, try to be honest with myself, and get those songs to the point where I want to hear them again and again.
I also like what Mr. Pike wrote. He's writing to please himself.
Mr. Litwin has a great idea. Let's get a reply from Paul McCartney, please.
Thanks Derek,
for bringing up the subject. I think it is essential, considering how many work alone these days, and how few of us has a producer.
I use garageband.com - You'll never get a more honest feedback than from a musician with "blindfolds", listening to a band or artist of whom he or she know nothing, other than the chosen genre..
But I've often though we should have several changes to prove our song to this community, by improve and remix, try it in another genre and so forth, 'cause I'd like to hear the continuance of the ongoing process from demo to sale. That's entertainment for me!
Basically we never know what is going to hit. The most naive and simple songs might be recognized as genuine and 'true' by the most people, while songs we've spend hours fixing minor details on, people might not even care about.
Generally my friends - the real ones, tell me straight, and most often those are the songs which work best acoustic about the fire. I totally agree!
What about you Sivers.. guess I've only heard your music in a lousy youtube-video.. Where do I go to listen?
from Copenhagen
S i g v e <3
When I first started recording my stuff, I used to show people to hear how good it was. But, honestly people would usually just give me constructive criticism but that used to irritate me so much!!! But now getting more experience I found the importance of getting feedback before finalizing anything. What I usually do is Show people my idea first and ask them what they think of the general idea and ask if they have any suggestions, then after I start recording I will bring in my very close producer friends of mine to give me advice or a simple thumbs up. Last when I think its almost done I will show it to people who know nothing about songwriting techniques or production and ask them to tell me what they think. This usually will get me a great mix, song, sound,,,,,Well all of the above. LOL!!! But feedback is so important professional and non.
my current situation is that im basically recording these songs for myself.
I moved from my hometown in Scotland almost a year ago,to Texas
.Which of course meant that i could no longer play in any of the bands i was in,
or record with them anymore.
So i do my music when i can at home,ultimately with a view to possibly having an albums worth of great songs. If i can afford to have some pressed,
id maybe send some to CDBbay as i did with my old band
Just Another Dream.
when i upload a song to MySpace,
i send out a bulletin that i have.
If i get ONE reply or comment about it, thats a surprise.i dont know if people are too busy with their own things or whatever, but i find it extremely difficult indeed to even get some kind of opinion,good,bad or indifferent.Even getting a reply from friends i email songs to is nigh on impossible it seems,and i have no idea why.
Friends will of course generally just say they like it, and offer no further comment.
so its impossible to take anything from that anyway.
i would LOVE to have people hear,and hopefully enjoy my songs, but i just cant seem to do it. I have music on MySpace/Facebook/Soundclick/Bebo/Soinic Jive etc etc,to no avail.
and to be perfectlly honest,
its really very very disheartening indeed.
not to mention incredibly frustrating,
Hello.
I've had great success from Matt Angel at the Songwriters Guild in Nashville. He hooked me up with a publisher in just a few weeks after evaluating my songs and working closely with me.
I really can't say enough about their services, and I've used NSAI, Tunesmith all of those places.
You won't regret checking it out.
I don't ask for feedback on songs as such as I find the songwriting process so personal, mysterious and instinctive that I don't want to analyse it myself that much let alone get others making me over think it. What I do get feedback on is recordings/mixes of songs as that is to me a much more analytical thing that I welcome feedback on from friends, other musicians, punters that I know well enough to know they will be honest with feedback.
Sometimes I let a few people hear pre-release mixes of songs that are basically finished, but it's more "sharing" than looking for critiques. I pretty much know by know what I like and don't like, and I'm out to please myself first and everyone else second. When you solicit a boatload of opinions, those commenting often contradict one other and get you so confused and caught up in second-guessing yourself that it can be very counterproductive.
I'm not all that interested in putting out stuff that has been groomed for maximum mass appeal by a panel of advisors. I think American Idol is a good example of how generic and "cookie cutter" music can become when you take an overly deliberate and market-driven approach to it.
I almost totally write the songs myself...I do no go to anyone for feedback....the only feedback is unsolicited but accepted. In my career I had other members of the band give me a tip which worked well but at what point do you have to give them credit as writer of the song in mention. Finally feedback is only as good as the feedback which is given.
The most important thing i can share with other writers is to remember the song has to be the star of the moment. Songs that people sing for tryouts are most hit songs.Great songs create great artist.
While work shops can be good, they call also be very disruptive to the creative flow of energy that an artist needs to perform the song soulfully. I think that it is up to the song writer(s) to get the song down like they hear and feel it. Let the other guys write their own songs while they are at the work shop. If they we're playing and working on the road, they wouldn't have time to be at a workshop. I find a lot of people at work shops are wantabes who are looking for a hussle.
Songwriting is art. If you like it then it's you. Alter it and it becomes something else...perhaps more commercial crap chasing a trend.
I will preform it live to see audience reaction to it, I will have people who I value their opinion comment on it and make the necessary changes, the most important after I did all of that I will not listen or do anything with the song for a week to two weeks and than I will listen to it again if I like it still than something is happening
I wait in line at a quicky mart and then write on a napkin. When the clerk gives me my change I then count it and see how many multiples of seven I can think of backwards till the clerk asks me whats wrong or the person behind me to kindly move so that she can check out.
That and songwriter nights with friends, but really I try to write different every time I write something new. Sometimes it comes into my head before I pull out the guitar, but normally the guitar is out and then reflection. I'm quite open about it, but it pisses some songwriters off that my songwriting is never the same twice purposefully. Not certain if its because they want to follow, or what, but it does make for interesting nights.
~Pete
If I'm co writing with someone else or even a band, it's a democratic process and everybody contributes.
But very often I work very quick when I have an idea. Sometimes it is recorded directly and finished in very short time. I love to be in the flow and trust that the music develops the best and strongest way. If I stop at that point and step back I sometimes loose the spark.
From all the comments I read I see that there are many different ways to create a song. I'd never expect anybody to do it my way, and I would never want to have do it like somebody else.
I have lately tried presenting a few new songs at the Uptown Salon: http://uptownsalon.blogspot.com
I play it for friends, then play it on the gig. After that I take it to a song pitch and see what reaction I get, then I address and problems that I've identified and start the process again
Holy posting in here.
Hey, let's everyone buy each others music.
I think we are the only ones who care anyway.
I've done a little of everything.
1. Recently started attending a songwriters workshop/roundtable
2. If I really love it, I just play it at a gig and feel out the room on the go a few times, I can usually tell if it lands or not.
3. I play it for close friends and gauge the level of praise.
I'm not at a point in my songwriting career where I'm looking to craft a radio-worthy/sell-able song, so I just try to make sure that my songs are as true to their message and vibe as they wanted to be when I first started writing them. I do the same with my prose writing. Not a lot of edits in my neck of the woods. The feedback that I get from the song circle that is most helpful is the kind that seems to be supporting my drive to give the song its fullest life and least-cloaked message. That's a little cryptic, perhaps, but for me, songwriting is soul poetry. If that's served, I'm happy.
Thanks for the question and invitation to answer!
Heather Marie Philipp
I really like this interactive format and good thought provoking ideas. Thanks Derek.
My primary feed back comes from family and other writer / musicians. If I like it, and they like it, we play it.
I don't write songs to "suceed". The artistic process stands on it's own. I'd say that 1 in 6 of my songs passes my own critique.
It's an internal evaluation that tells me when a song is good, and one that I want to own.
This is not to say that I don't try to learn from other song writers. For example I'm trying to understand / use the very effective way in which John Prine incorporates long silences in his lyric phrasing.
I usually play a new song for my husband, a pianist... I trust his judgement. He is very critical and usually points out everything he doesn't like about a song...
I believe in rewriting and perfecting songs a lot, so try to work on them. Then, if I like what I wrote I play it for my family and eventually enter it on ourstage.com to see how it would do... But also I sometimes miss the inspiration and constructive criticism that these workshops and the Berklee environment provide.
Right now I am collaborating with a friend. we bounce ideas off one another. In the past I would use collaboration sites. also Taxi forums is a good place to play for feedback.
i mainly trust my own judgement and that of my wife who often co-writes with me. if i'm really excited about a track i'm working on then i have i pretty good idea that it's a good tune. if i find myself humming the melody or it's stuck in my head for days... this is also a good indicator. sometime i may think that this songs sounds really pop to me and i wonder if it's too pop and not indie sounding enough... i may play it for a close friend in our music scene to get their vibe on it. i have found that even in underground and indie circles songs can almost never be too pop!
Over the years I've learned one lesson: "listen to the judge within yourself". My most sold songs were NOT the ones that others commented on, the ones I altered because others said so, no, they were the ones I chose.
Let your heart decide what is really good and what is not. Take full responsibility for your choice and in the end there's only one winner or loser and that's you...
Just to add to my previous post, I do create alternate versions and "modernize" older songs of mine. Sometimes a song is fully born. Sometimes it evolves. Sometimes, it just needs to die. And I am my harshest critic. But I have received a lot of feedback over the years to develop that self critical sense.
generally play new songs for my wife....then, often regardless of the nature of the feedback received, i play it at a show.....i pretty much know fairly quickly how it has been received by the audience.....after that, it's up to me whether i like it or not, and sometimes, even if the feedback from the audience is discouraging, i keep playing it, because i am stubborn, and i know what i like
Balance between practicality and receptivity. If you followed up on everyone's advice you'd never finish a song. Ask for criticism and you'll get it. I've been told many times and directly by the truly accomplished: opinions are like assholes -- everyone's got one! Not to be disrespectful, and a little crass. But you must respect YOURSELF as well -- your GIFT and INSPIRATION -- so as not to eternally expose yourself to overwhelming and meaningless feedback. Just time lost.
People are different. Their hearts, brains and experiences are different. We process thought, imagery and emotions differently -- and use language accordingly. Your song is SURELY not for everybody! Impossible. Your drive will tell you whether you have something to say. Then you must nurture the skills that take you to the core of things. After all, you probably still want to hit "universals" that have a chance at touching many. And maybe earning some food for your table?
I'm good with language and lean verbose. So I've had to practice for years at grabbing that kernel of thought. I like the song form for that reason. It's limited by nature and its focus has spared me from novel-writing. I'm grateful. I can learn to say great things succinctly. Thank God! There is hope . . .
For years I took songwriting classes and willingly "subjected" myself to mass-scrutiny. It was good. I learned much and was well-received. I'm a good writer. I did NOT begrudge the lessons and am better today for it. But I'm not young now, and I'm driven and prolific as ever. This is my life's greatest gift and I intend to make good. I'm at the top of my game just about now. I no longer run around asking for opinions. I'd certainly still reflect on serious comments from a respected mentor. I have "become one" with that Great Editor and am completely amazed at this LIVING PROCESS each time I work in my studio. I write/sing/produce my original material now -- slowly, meticulously -- and the rewrites and finessing come magically with the marriage of the music, etc. I literally never know in advance exactly how my production will evolve! It's exciting. And I certainly don't lack structure or creativity. I ooze it. Yet THE PROCESS is certainly beyond who I am and I am privileged to step beyond myself for this interaction. Years of study improve my natural expression and I am left with awe at this process. It is indeed mystical, and we cooperate. Of course, I speak for myself. And mine is a strong observation.
So be honest. Have you done your homework? Have you embraced your own arrogance just to comfort-zone? We used to call it GETTING YOUR ROCKS OFF in Los Angeles songwriting classes. Just how serious an artist are you? Do you want to hone your skills, or do you just like attention? Know yourself. YOU decide how far you want to go with this. At least in dedication. Then there's exposure. Then THE PUBLIC decides, I guess. I'm still workin' on that . . . ENJOY your GIFT, and GOOD LUCK!!!
I used to be concerned with feedback, playing for my dad, my brothers, my husband.... the things I learned are: 1. It is very difficult for most people, even other musicians, to hear quite what you hear when a song is in its birthing stage and 2. The songs that have less 'obvious' appeal are often times the songs with the most personality and the stronger ability to speak to people. I can't pretend like I'm not affected by feedback because I am. To the point of paralyzing my creative process if I receive it midway through writing. So I continue to write, for nobody but myself, and when I have a "good" song, I know it, and at that point I accept all feedback and usually don't change a thing.
When I finish writing a song it begins with my satisfaction.By then I have perhaps played that songs at minimum of 25-75 times to get it where I am happy with it.(I am my biggest critique).However, I then pass this song on to my family members and then best friends to get their feedback.
Often enough some disagree with me or with each other on it being a hit.But the funny thing is a songwriter in his right mind doesn't think of writing poor material we all strive in writing that next big hit song.
I have had some good songs some have even made alittle money for me.But I'm still working hard in digging deeper within myself to find that next big hit.
Mannyman
President and CEO
RhythmQwest.com
I do not ask for feedback.
I have one creative partner and we work together. We put a lot of work into the song before I share it in public. I listen and listen to it as if someone else wrote it. If any element of the song makes me uncomfortable, it means it is not ready. When I am happy with it, then, it is ready.
The process of feedback can be detrimental, especially to new writers.
If you must have feedback, talk to another creative person whom you love and trust, who loves and respects your work and sees your potential, so that you can have a strong foundation from which to transform your work into something you like. If you ask such person, then you will need to listen and not take it personally.
It's gotta get past me, first. I'm a ruthless editor! Since I'm doing the classical thing, I show it - in virtually finished form - to successful composers and musicians of a similar mind. I next try the material out by letting various area groups perform it, before sending it out to national groups and publishers.
generally,i will wait for an acoustic show,rather than a full band show, and let the listeners know it is new. if i get positive feedback, i will usually work it into a full band show. if i don't get any feedback i either trash it or do some rewriting.
Would a painter ask for "feedback" on a recently finished painting and then add a few colors ? I see the compositions as pretty much finished once they are written . If I perform them with a group , sometimes the members will suggest alterations which can be helpful. My wife hears everything first , but she always says nice things so that isn't much help . If I like something I have written , no-one can tell me otherwise usually ..
The best experience I've had was in the BMI/Lehman Engel Musical Theatre Workshop in NYC. Songs were critiqued by peers and a moderator, many professionals, with a focus on craft.
There's a similar program in Los Angeles, Academy for New Musical Theatre.
Key for such a thing to work is that it be both supportive and critical. Also key is that the quality of the work be at a sufficient level to spur healthy competition, to inspire to impress.
For non-theater songwriting, I haven't found a comparable operation, but I'm still looking.
I realize that not everyone has the luxury of access to all of these, so I'll list as many ways as I have tried. 1) Ask song writer friends who have had chart success to critique. 2) Play the song out live a lot - get crowd reaction. 3) Submit it in contests. 4) Submit it for reviews in press and media (including local radio). 5) Study other well crafted songs and compare (will reveal "settled for a rhyme" lyrics, rushed arrangements, musical ineptitude, etc.) 6) If you feel that it requires more than one competent instrumentalist to perform and move a listener, then the song is what is lacking, not the instrumentation. 7) If you won't allow yourself to be edited for the better by those are better, then the "emperor's new clothes"... 8) Get many opinions (girlfriends/boyfriends, parents, teachers, musicians and non-musicians). 9) Never quit trying to improve the song (and write a lot of songs). 10) Co-write with good writers who can improve the song and you if they offer help.
i usually make a loop and send it thru email to several people. I conglomerate everyone's response as attune to there PC speakers. lol
I've worked for 30+ years as a producer/composer/arranger, arranged many hits and had my songs recorded by Ray Charles, Deniece Williams and others.
I teach my own course,Professional Songwriting, and group feedback is very important. Unfortunately few writers starting out have the opportunity to get the audience reaction of live work. I stress that if a person wants to become a PROFESSIONAL songwriter, personal expression should only be only one element on a long list of other priorities.
First I stress the value of detailed analysis of great songwriters work - "imitate, assimilate, innovate".
I have also developed over the years something I call my ELEVEN POINT PLAN - a specific methodology that will guarantee, if not a HIT song, a EFFECTIVE song that will get a positive listener response. The plan is designed to get over the most detrimental aspect of songwriting: the near impossibility of being OBJECTIVE. The PLAN brings the objectivity of the intellect into the room to have a chat with your emotions. This gets songwriters away from amateurish, purely intuitive processes of songwriting. Writing effective songs is no longer a 'happy accident' or a matter of waiting for a 'muse'. If this sounds unromantic I would add that my results have been very successful!
I follow the KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid) approach. As a kid I would listen to all the hits and I modeled my approach towards that. What is funny is that my producer,Leroy Miller of Smashmouth, has worked with some of those people. I always look for constructive critism and I have a great band with a good group of musicians and when I bring something to the table, we analyze it and work out some dynamics and hooks.
Here is my method:
1. I make sure the song has a good groove, wether its a ballad or rock song
2. I ask my peers what they think of it and what suggestions they have.
3. Dynamics, Dynamics, Dynamics.
I make sure the song has some catchy spots and hooks, can't live without a hook.
4. I am fortunate to have worked with some of the best in the business and I send them demos for feedback. Critism will only make you better, don't send to any YES PEOPLE.
5. Remember, don't try to do too much. Take the Neil Young method and just write the song and it will work itself out. Like my producer Leroy Miller says, "It's what you don't do, that makes it great".
Songwriting is so subjective depending on the taste of the listener. Ultimately, I have to please my own worse critic, myself. Also, from alot of what I hear on pop radio, I often find myself wondering how some of these songs got recorded in the first place, again it is obviously very subjective. Mostly I want it to tell me something I haven't already heard or in a way I've never heard before. When I played selections from my CD for my Mom(none of those songs I wrote were on it), her reply was, "Aren't there any songs on your CD that I know?" So there you have it. I played a song I wrote on the piano for close friend recently and she said it was a good song but "with some tweeking it coud be really good". It was hard to find a place to work tweeking into the lyric...LOL I don't claim any knowledge of the key to success, but surely the key to failure is trying to please everyone. "This above all: To thine own self be true." - William Shakespeare
BTW THANKS Derick for your great work and continued effort to enhance our respective musical journeys!
The composing process is very complex; sometimes when you show work that’s not totally finished you’ll get ideas based on something that’s not quite ready. When I show my work I rather show it to people I think have enough critieria to understand and artist process to make a song or whatever creation he or she is working on, otherwise you can get really anxious of all the extra ideas people may have on your work.
Right now about the only feeback I get is from my girlfriend who is a very good musician. I'm more interested in her overall opinion in terms of the feel of the song as opposed to getting too detailed.
It has been my experience that paid (industry) critiques are helpful only in terms commercial presentation mainly keeping a basic song structure with simple, rather ordinary lyrics.
I have since dispenced seeking such critiques opting to go through a refinement in my songwriting process. I find my work getting better as a result of this.
I record a work tape, and then send it to my best fans asking for feedback. Often I send two versions of the lyrics, and ask which they like better. This is when I'm stumped between the two versions, unsure which is better.
LIFE IS FULL OF HATERS! SO PLAY THE SONG DON'T TELL ANYONE WHO THE ARTIST IS OR PRODUCER,IF THAT YOU ASK THEM AFTER THE SONG WHAT DO THINK OF THE ARRANGEMENT ANYTHING!....ASK DUMB QUESTIONS? I KNOW BECAUSE I MEET WITH THOSE JIVE,DEF JAM,BAD BOY MUSIC GUYS ALOT OF TIMES DON'T LIKE NONAMES-PRODUCERS OUT SHINING MAJOR PRODUCERS. THE SAME IS WITH YOUR PEERS,TEST YOUR MUSIC WITH KIDS THEY TELL THE TRUTH! LIL WANYE,JONAS BROTHERS.........WWW.SOL-VILLA.COM
No one is going to care as much as you do.
I was a big music fan, I bought all I could. When I ran out of things to buy, I started writing.
I think in the end I am only creating music for myself to listen to, now and in the future.
I once went through Sheila Davis' "Successful Lyric Writing." And at the end of the book, she offered a one time consultation for a fee. Best money I ever spent. I submitted two songs for her consideration. On one she told me I was fooling with my audience, and I had better come clean. At first I was a little offended. Then I decided that yes, she was right. So I re-wrote the bridge and the song "Anna On My Mind" was released on a Kansas City Songwriters' Circle anthology in 1999.
Mostly these days I perform new songs at the local songwriters' circle, videos of which are posted at Songpull.com. These may be found here http://www.songpull.com/pull/watch?group_id=29
Comments are welcome.
Jim Krause
When a friend or acquaintance comes to me and asks for an opinion of a song they have written or recorded, 95 percent of the time my response is "its a little too long".
If I really like the song I will let them know that I really liked it, but if I dislike the song for other reasons than song length, I will usually keep my mouth shut.
Why?
Because most of the songs that make a lot of money really really suck in my opinion. So if someone comes to me with a song that I think really sucks, then it has a really good chance of making tons of money and I wouldn't want them to change that song at all.
Now if the song is both too long and it really sucks, then I will tell them to shorten the song, but I won't tell them that the song sucks. Its all relative to the listeners taste whether a song is good or bad.
I like short songs, 50's and 60's pop. "Everyday" by Buddy Holly is one of my all time favorites.
Unfortunately, Don Maclean who was inspired by Buddy Holly, had his biggest hit with "American Pie". "American Pie" is one of my least favortie popular songs of all time. So if Don Maclean had come to me after he wrote "American Pie", I would have simply said "its a little long", even though I really can't stand any part of that song. And Don Maclean would have lived happily ever after with one of the biggest hits of the 70's, and I would have been slightly happier because the song would have been 15 minutes long instead of 20 mintues or whatever. You get my point?
I could use John Mayer as another example (ha ha poor John). I can't stand most of John Mayer's material, but he makes a buttload of money in the music industry. Millions to say the least. His songs are so extremely repetetive, and some people like that. So if John Mayer came to me and asked my opinion of one of his songs, I would simply say "its a little long and slightly repetetive". Than at least when I hear it on the radio its that much shorter. I would never tell John that I can't stand his songs!!!
Hi Derek,
I am a member of a website called songu.com. It is run by industry professionals who write for the current commercial market. They have great songwriting courses and feedback on all areas of your tunes via live web instruction....they have changed my life 180....Hey, if anyone is interested in joining please tell 'em I sent ya!
Thanks Derek!
I'm kind of picky about songs - wanting to live up to the quality of songs that inspire me. So, by the time anyone hears it, I'm done. Someone once said, "Art is not completed. It is abandoned." I subscribe to that. With the tools we have for production these days, the challenge is that we have too many options, and that we defer our abandonment of the song for too long. Also, I really have to separate the writing process from the production process - trying out many production approaches until I'm happy with the combination of song and production.
I generally dont seek much criticism of my work while doing it. I probably could/should but tend more to trust my vision and that of any contributing collaborators. Then i get any objective feedback towards the end of the creative process. Sngwriting circles can be helpful but also biased to others personal taste masquerading as rules. Sometimes I ask any creative person around for their first impressions, and see if what they say enlightens me.
http://www.quickstopentertainment.com/category/masters-of-song-fu/
This is a wonderful songwriting forum disguised as a contest. And it's just goofy fun. It's like the Iron Chef of songwriting. Where defined Masters take on all sorts of challengers for the title of "Master of Song Fu!"
There have been many good songs written for it. But, I think anyone could learn a bit about song writing by checking out the archives and following the current competition.
As President of the Connecticut Songwriters Association (http://www.ctsongs.com), I've been involved in leading hundreds of professional critique sessions all over the U.S. Feedback, which I identify as the role of "Sounding Board" in the creative process, is essential for really fine tuning a song to achieve the result that you, the artist, are aiming for. However, not everyone knows how to effectively solicit, give, and interpret feedback, i.e how to separate the subjective from the objective, expression from communication, creativity from craft, the artistic from the commercial, and where all these things fit in to an individual artist's vision.
This unfortunately causes many artists to shy away from the process and forego the benefits it can yield. My book will devote a great deal of discussion to this issue, but for now, check out these articles dealing with several aspects of the critique process, and the roles of giver/receiver:
http://www.billpere.com/PDF/MBTI%20in%20Critiquing.pdf
http://www.billpere.com/PDF/Three%20Levels%20of%20Criique.pdf
http://www.billpere.com/PDF/Role_Call.pdf
More at http://www.billpere.com/Songwriter_Tools.htm
For me, a song I write is one I like. A song by committee has its downside. Stick to your own innovations and phrasing. You'be got to stay yourself, and influence your own work and changes.
USELESS. I never play new songs for friends, family, the Industry, or musicians.
I perform it in front of a new audience that has never seen me before and immediately see and feel
if I have touched them emotionally.
Music is the language of emotion and therefore in an instant you see it in their faces.
I used to perform with a symphony orchestra behind me but was forced to stop the practice because none of the musicians could see the music through their tears.
Sneaky bro - embedding the second question. For me - the 'can it be improved?' question is built in to the initial process - in order to keep me interested enough to complete and remember a work long enough to record/and/or perform it. The question of 'can it be improved' is past from that point on. As for a recording of a work - completely separate.
But as for 'songs' I'm off to another one. Tunes can be covered and improved (or not) and that's well and good.
If analyzing is its own department - I'll be down the hall behind the dreaming up more door.
B.
I go through several stages of evaluation.
1. I have two trusted musician friends that give really great feedback for a song that is early in the process. I'll either play the song for them or email them a very basic demo. They understand that I am not looking for praise, but for a solid critique, and they aren't shy about telling me if my song doesn't move them or feels like it has missing elements.
2.Once I feel that I have the song to a stage where it is presentable, I will perform it at a local coffee house, telling people that it is a new song and asking for a feedback on this particular song after the set.
3. Next, I'll record the song using drum software, guitar, bass, vocal and have another friend drop in some kyb parts. Then I will do a rough mix and submit the song to Broadjam.com's peer to peer review. You do have to pay to be a Broadjam member, but the peer to peer review is included and I've found the people here to be very serious about songwriting.
4. At the same time, I've meet some great songwriters through Broadjam and I'll email the song separately to a couple of them asking for their critique.
5. Now I incorporate the suggestions (or not) and make a decision on whether or not to record & produce the song.
It is a longer process than I used to do, but that process gives the song time to gel and find its correct tempo, timbre and place in the world. I am starting to feel like I am crafting my songs and that the quality of my songwriting has improved tremendously.
ha ha... if only songwriters could get as many critique replies to their songs as you have to your question! Nice work Derek.
Pick the people whom you appreciate their taste and what they listen to... then ask them. But there's really only one question to ask "will you press play and listen to it again...?"
Having the luxury of being a 5 piece band full of songwriters - we are our own critics. If a song can get past the five of us, there's something worth listening to.
Our workflow goes like this:
1 String together riffs
2 Structure song
3 Play song in practice space
4 Record song
5 Either back to #1 or go to #6
6 Play live
I have band mates listen to it, I play it for a few friends, but mostly I myself listen to it and turn it over in my head over and over. By playing it for other people, though, I find that I end up thinking about it and hearing it in new and different ways. Sections or lyrics that may not have stood out as being problematic often do stand out, and then I have a stronger sense for what I feel about the song and those specific sections - where there needs to be some more tweaking/polishing, etc. And if I have a friend helping to engineer the song, which I occasionally do, then his opinion is also welcomed. However, ultimately it depends on the song's purpose - if it's just a rock song (or what not) done "for the hell of it" - i.e., for my band, just for art's sake & so on - then it just comes down to my feelings about it. And if someone offers feedback then yes I will take it into consideration and decide if I agree with them or not.
However, if I'm doing a song for someone else's project - a theatrical production or short film or what have you - then the person with whom I'm working on that project will offer official feedback, of course. And then we discuss and aim at getting the song to where it needs to be to support that project in the appropriate way, while also not sacrificing its own integrity, and so on.
Hi Derek, one hell of a question. I guess I've tried all the ways you listed and stupidly paid once (which I say avoid like the plague) I now tend to put an acoustic and voice version on my home page and let people who's honest opinions I respect give me feedback. I have a couple of close mates of some 35 years that I grew up with and discovered music with. They don't fuck about and give me straight answers. Family I avoid apart from my two year old daughter who seems to have my music sussed.
By the way nice vibe here, feel free to pop over y'all.
Love and music.
Al.
To some extent I self-edit my songs because I have been writing for a number of years and crank out 20-50 songs a year for a music library. If I'm really unsure about a song I have a small circle of songwriters that will listen and give me feedback. I have tried the songwriter workshop method and have not been happy with the results.
I had more thoughts once I read all the posts from people who say "I don't show my songs to anyone until they're done! I would never do that."
For me, my songs are barfed out in what seems to be X amount of inspiration. It is what it is, and it could be a complete song, or it could be just a hook or lyric fragment.
Next comes the perspiration and vision. You can't force vision, so sometimes it takes perspiration to get to the vision. It's easy for me to get stuck in this stage, and this is where I should share the song with people. This is a step that *can* (no guarantees) be a valuable shortcut.
This is the best place for me to make changes -- I am open to them, and the music is not so set in stone that it seems like too much work to make changes.
Perhaps some people really never need feedback. I am not that way, I write best with other people in the mix.
A song has two aspects, objective (construction, consistency, etc) and subjective (style, subject matter, etc).
I only look for objective criticism and mainly from the lyric. A song is what can be put on paper, so I email the lyric to my "quality control" department which consists of professional writer friends in different states with different writing styles. I know they we give me mostly objective rather tahn subjective opinions. People nowadays don't know the difference between a song and an arrangement and a production. The rule of thumb is that if it can't be put on one or two sheets of paper it's not part of the song.
I'm an A-hole about my music. If I like it, I go with it. If no one else gets it, well...
There are many whose talent wasn't discovered until long after they'd departed the world. During their lifetime, these artists were not really appreciated. To me, that says a great deal about public opinion. Not to mention what's popular these days!
"It's all right now, I learned my lesson well; you can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself" --Rick Nelson (no relation)
Chris Nelson
"what night sounds like"
www.soundclick.com/chrisnelsonus
www.facebook.com/chrisnelsonband
I have always written alone.I really think being honest as an artist and concentrating on writing while remaining true to yourself are the most important things.I really try not to let other people get in the way of it.It is important not to let critics and fans stifle the artistic process.The critics will always be there and so will your real fans.At the end of the day you have to be able to face yourself in the mirror.
I'm on to giving advice... you need to know your major scales and their chords.
obviously ?
the crowd pleasers are obvious right from the start. usually the simplest songs that repeat something they can relate to.
I still play what I love the best, but it's fun to see what gets people's attention.
I run the raw acoustic form by my husband first. He usually suggests a beat and a feel (he's a drummer). Then we play it for our 14-year old daughter who is a big pop music fan and just instinctively knows what's a hit and what isn't, what hooks should be repeated, and what should be added or taken away. My next EP (due out in another week or so) has her full approval
My songs are fairly well finished when I write it. God deffinately gave me a gift for writinng but singing I really have to work at. I some times get a thought and thirty mimutes have a song down with the melody in tact. I know very little about music. My husband has played since he was a teenager, so he helps me work out the tune and rythem. I sing at blue grass every month in Miami, and in churches in S. Fl. but I have never tried to get songs pulished.The thought sounds exciting but I'm not a pusher. That is why I was so excited about the contest.
Thanks so much for your intrest
I'll try harder
Emma Nell Gillilan
Derek,
Very happy and grateful to read you. Honestly, i create songs as a therapy, for the health,in accordance with my mind, dialogues...improvisations.
Respect.
Best regards.
1. Play your songs at open mics, especially the kind in NH where the audience is made up of other performers…. Meet them and ask them for honest constructive feedback.
2. Start a songwriter group in your community, gather weekly or monthly… (great incentive to write songs), have dinner, make it fun, develop trust, help each other!
Well friends, I think we're missing the boat if we forget that the one thing that creates genius is aligning with your heart/muse/energy inside.
Every feedback venture leads the participant away from dogmatic reliance upon their spirit.
What created every innovative paradigm shift was a simple attitude: they didn't care what others thought - the end was inherent in the means. And that can't be faked (which is why kids start trends... they believe and know they are smarter, so... they are.
I have two audiences on which I try out my songs.
First, my family. I write funny songs. That's all. If they don't laugh, it ain't funny and it goes back to the drawing board.
Second, if the family laughs, the song gets the open mic test. I take it to an open mic (or sometimes play it at a gig) and test the audience reaction. I usually have to do this two or three times to get a general idea of whether the audience likes it or not. (Note: Old people do not enjoy songs about body piercing. YOUNGER people, though...absolutely!)
In the end, if it gets laughs, it stays in the repertoire, provided I remember it and don't forget it.
I get together once a month with fellow songwriters. We each play a song. If you want an honest critique, you'll get it. The people who take criticism well get better and better. The people who don't want to hear it seem to go nowhere. Most of my songs have been improved as a result of feedback I've gotten from the group.
Once a final drafts are completed, I wait a couple of a days and then revisit the tunes. I do that a couple of times over a week or so looking at all parts of the tune especially the feel. If it survives after some tweaking, I'm finished.If I like it, it's on the record.
rhyc
I usually play the song (once I deem it "done") for my friends and family. At this point, there's a couple things I tend to cringe about that I notice just by watching their faces (turn the high's down, the low's are muddy, whatever - I can usually gauge it by their face).
Then, after they've heard it, i ask for feedback: "what'd you think? Like it? anything jump out as you? make you cringe? does it make you wanna jump/dance?"
Then, I take these notes back to my studio, and try to work at the song a bit. If i deem it too hard, or too much of a drastic change to the music to accomodate something, I either shelve it (if everyone hated it), or say "Screw it" and just go for it as is.
Also, I tend to stage-test new stuff- play it at a gig, intermingle with other things, covers, etc. If people look like they dig it, it's gold. Ship it!
Well I've been writing songs with my songwriting partner for several years now. We have two albums, and split all of our songwriting 50/50 even if the song was really 70/30. This is important because we discarded of the competitive aspect of writing which has enabled us to be really open to the others criticism.
We always bring each other what we're working on, and are frank and honest in our opinions.Neither of us are bothered because we know that the other has the songs best intentions in mind.
I think that writing with another person is great because it pushes you beyond what you would typically do, and brings another mind of ideas into the mix.
Also, outside feedback from professionals is crucial to improving. We had a TAXI membership when we released our first album, and 50% of our stuff was forwarded on. We never got a deal through it, but we got a lot of great critiques. It was easy for us to identify our problem areas because the majority of the critiques mentioned the same issues. When we wrote our next album we worked off of those critiques and had much stronger songs.
Now most of our feedback comes from fans, or music supervisors, or producers.
I don't think this "asking around" approach can be anywhere near on point. I say this for the simple reason that statistically you are asking people you have access to. Namely, friends, fans and other people who are already at your shows or know you.
I usually just create and put out records that I am happy with and the public makes it painfully clear what worked and what didn't.
An amusing anecdote, we put out a whole record and the song which garnered the most criticism from fans and friends ended up in 2 MTV shows (Real World), and pulls by far the most iTunes downloads.
If I had asked my fan base, I'd have missed the publicity generated by that song completely (maybe even dropped it from the record).
David Gilmour has said "to guess what the public wants is a fool's game".
Just create. Make yourself happy and let them choose what they like from what you create for yourself.
Derek,
this is what I meant by music as subversive activity - a great question gets me to think & evaluate what I do, & more important what I don't do enough.
thanks.
1- I download it to an mp3 and mail it to friends whose main focus is not music but who are very exposed to music in their work: a script writer, a film/tv editor, a videographer/painter; a farmer/barn & wood boat restorer;
a lawyer - to as many different locations as possible around the world.
2- I send it to my band mates in Poland , to my fiddle player who is now a radiology resident; to a radio DJ & sometimes she has time to respond ; to musicians I know in other genres than my folk .. classical quartets, flamenco, jazz, & blue grass.
3- I am in the process of learning how to put new pieces in a beta/ unmixed form onto my website just to have anyone listen to it; get as many new ears to listen as possible ! To hell with copyright - get me beyond those silly possessive feelings!
4-I put it on my iPhone and play it over the radio in my car until either I get tired of it or my passengers do or I find it has something .
5- I produce house concerts on a small stage my house; I have talked with local musicians of having a monthly night with four or so singer/songwriters performing 2 pieces each with or without an invited audience.
6-And finally,I need to push myself to go out and perform new stuff in front of anyone; I like the idea of busking; and small joints where other musicians come in, open mics and pickup nights.
What I usually do is begin with a good melody and try to work a nice chord progression around that than I develop the songs structure verse chorus bridge etc..as I’m doing this im singing gibberish with no lyric yet that usually the last thing that I develop I don’t normally go into it with an idea already in mind about what the songs going to be about I like to be surprised when its done
I record myself and listen to the song in progress a lot. When it's pretty much completed, I perform it for others and listen for remarks on interpretation, not so much form. I find people are more conservative on form than interpretation.
I do think it's also helpful to just record your song and to listen to it, even after a few days, as if it were someone else's song - would you buy it or put it on your playlist - why/why not? Sometimes when you just play it over and over you're too busy playing & remembering it to actually hear the song & how it is working. I think it's helpful to take your song to groups of folks who play (and listen to) the genre of your song who you respect and get their feedback since they have an idea of what is working or selling in that genre, but I don't always trust this type of feedback. Don't let picky folks ever keep you from letting out the song that's in your soul! Everybody has different taste - trust yours! Trust your audience! Develop and trust your instinct - listen to a lot of music!
Thrilled that you asked this question.
Your friends and family will always bullshit you and say, "I don't know why you're not on the radio! Your songs are so great!" You can send to Taxi, pay a lot of money and maybe once in awhile get a useful critique. I would LOVE to have a site/blog/etc that would be a place where you could get honest feedback from peers...BEFORE you submitted it for "real".
After more than forty years of writing songs and playing in bands, duos and as a solo act, I do it strictly for myself these days. If someone else likes it, that's great. It's gravy and I still enjoy that but it's actually quite liberating to not care what other people think about your art. As a very prolific songwriter once wrote: "You can't please everyone so you got to please yourself."
To be very honest we view songwriting as a means to express ourselves honestly and completely from the heart. What we don't do is compromise our expression by asking others to critique it or suggest changes... to us that defeats the object of writing in the first place.
Songwriting isn't a talent contest (maybe it is for some), to us it is an emotional therapy.
So if someone likes our music that is great, if they don't then they obviously didn't relate to it or understand it... no problem, move on.
Simon
GXR
It all starts with the hook. If you dont have a hook, you dont have a song. Then you determine whether it sounds like a verse, a chorus, an intro, then build around it. Sometimes its something as smple as a riff or a something catchy that you're just humming away at. The trick is to transfer it from your head to the instrument, then to a song. Hope this helps Derek!
First of all, let's clarify that there's a difference between trying to write a commercial pop hit and trying to craft a deeply personal song. In one case, there are experts who can tell you all the tips and tricks that will enhance your pursuit. In the other, there are those who can inspire and encourage, but I don't believe anyone can tell you how to actually articulate your passion or rage better than you - you're only limited by your linguistic and technical musical abilities, which is 90% of what people comment on. You wanna write better songs? Improve your skills.
I don't ask other people for feedback on my songs. However, one thing I always do when I write a new song is walk away from it and let it sit. In the heat of the moment, it's easy to convince yourself that you've just written a masterpiece and that every word/note is gold. When you come back to it a couple days later, you will certainly notice structural and lyrical flaws that you glossed over when you were still in that first blush of post-creative love.
I don't ask. As a creative writer, I prefer not to have collaborators or input from wannabe critics. Nobody has my creative vision, and until a song is completed, I don't even know what it's going to be like. On my current song, because it represents an image change for me, I asked a well-known producer/arranger for his opinion of the lyrics (which is all that I had written at the time). He liked them but asked, "Why?" See, that's one of the reasons why I don't play an unfinished song for anyone. In my many decades of life, I've learned that I'm NOT other people’s opinions or their dreams. Once you know who you are, it doesn't matter what other people say or think. When someone asks me “Why?” Pshaw! I don’t need a reason to do what I want to do. I don’t need to explain myself to anyone. Especially if what I want to do has never been done in the way that I am doing it. Incidentally, not looking for validation, I've had to share the lyrics and image change with three other professional friends, who love the idea. Today, I'm 'Pro Toolsing' the song. So There!
Hmmm....
My songs are usualy finished before i let anyone listen.
But i do play bits...parts of the song to friends and i ask if it sounds familiar if its no then i know i'm on to something.... if i'ts yes then i listen to whatever it is that it sounds like and i proceed from there .
After years of composing music for a different medium (live theatre), I started taking private theory lessons. This quickly evolved into a one-on-one songwriting workshop with a mentor (who soon became a good friend). 1-2 songs a week for a year presented at every lesson, no matter how raw or undeveloped. It was the most profoundly helpful step I've ever taken.
Now that I'm recording and performing on a regular basis, time and money have unfortunately precluded the workshop. Presenting songs to my band, I can tell right away if they guys aren't excited (or my own gut feeling says something's not right), so I keep whittling away until we get to the GOOD STUFF. Next comes a few trusted musician friends and a live audience. If it's still not feeling good enough or the audience reaction is tepid, then I'll ditch the song for a while (months? years?) and maybe come back to it with a fresh approach.
Overall, having an experienced, trustworthy mentor from the beginning gave me plenty of confidence and a critical ear towards my own work. I'm not sure there's a substitute for that level of trust unless it's built during personal interaction.
First firing line the songs hit is the band, myself (manager/sound engineer), and 1 or 2 dedicated friends/fans that show up at practice once in awhile.
When a song is roughly ready for the public - the band will play it through, which usually ends up with the friend/fan saying how much they love it. While the singer and I are quietly chatting about it in a corner as the band finishes out the song.
That's when the band notices us, and the discussion starts on what is working and what isn't. Either musically, overall groove of the song, riffs interfering with vocal lines, etc... They all work together to help each other better their part to compliment the overall song and each other.
Once it's where the band is happy, it goes live at a show for a crowd response check. We look at who's getting excited by it, and who decides to go for a beer instead.
If not at least half the crowd is diggin it, it's put under serious evaluation by the band. If at least half the crowd is into it, it's lightly looked over for minor improvements that would help engage the rest of the listeners.
Fans and concert-goers are the most brutal listeners you'll find. While they won't critique the song, they'll show you exactly how they feel by what they do.
And of course, once it's a crowd pleaser and gets to the studio level, it's re-evaluated by the label, the band, and myself for further improvement.
I don't think Dichotic would ever ship out a song to a paid "professional" for evaluation. If crowds love it, they love it. If they don't, well then they don't, and rather than trying to critique every song to be a hit, sometimes you have to push that song off a cliff and never look back.
And yes, once it's out there and heard by crowds, it will likely end up posted online, and we do receive feedback randomly from listeners, which is always welcome.
We just don't like ASKING for feedback as it can sometimes be skewed views since it's solicited feedback.
"I got vision up the butt..."
- School of Rock
Hi Derek,
On my last CD, which started out as all Improv, I first ran it by another solo pianist who has had a lot of experience in the genre I am in. And then I had the very good fortune of hiring a producer, Eric Tingstad (of Tingstad and Rumbel), who ended up editing my Improvs and taking the music to a higher level. I probably could have lived with the Improvs as they were, as I was very happy with the work that I did. But handing my music over to someone whose ear I highly respect, was definitely the right move. The music works so much better after editing. I would never have been able to hear the music objectively enough to edit it myself.
Peace ☮ Love ♥ & Light ☼
Louis
When I'm writing a song, I don't seek feedback until late in the recording stage, if ever.
We all have, within us, unique aesthetic sensibilities. When writing a song, I try to follow my own intuition.
Some loose parameters I use to guide me in the songwriting process are: 1) the lyrics should be able to function alone as a decent poem; 2) the lyrics should be insightful or at least express my point of view on a subject; 3)for music, sometimes I try to imagine how the song would sound if it were performed and arranged by the Beatles or some other band I admire; 4)when I'm coming up with a new musical idea I think - if the Beatles, or some other band I admire, were together today what would they have come up with. This helps me stay emotionally connected to the musical idea as it evolves.
Two years ago I started working with a group of about 50 men who enjoy praise and worship. I now run new songs past them - in part or in near-finfished form - to gauge their response. If they can't sing it or follow the melody, it goes back into the hopper for reworking. When guys choke up or stop to listen, I know I have hit them where it counts. At that point it is a keeper.
Thanks for the follow Derek!
Are you thinking about developing an online site for this?? :D
That will be awesome!
@SRivera
Erm, well...I get a song coming at me from all directions, melodies, lyrics, basslines, drum patterns, guitar lines, strings etc, then I go down to a mill in Manchester where musicians and friends I know hang out and start laying it all down so it isn't driving me mad anymore. I then leave it to whoever to add their imagination/musicianship/production to it. I come back a week later and there is a finished track. I look around at the beaming smiles from my friends, some of whom are musicians, some of whom are not and I think to myself, what a wonderfull world!
After I've written a song I do a cheapie demo and send it to Taxi.com for a critique. After I get a response back I've go over the suggestions with my writing partner and think about it for a while. Then I do a little re-writing. After that I'll sing it at a show and get the audience reaction. That will tell me a lot. It the audience doesn't respond too well I'll rewrite some more and send the revised version for another critique at Taxi.com and to get more feedback. I've never had to send it for more than two critiques because by then I've got it as good as it's going to get. Getting outside criticism is key. You can never trust what your best friends and family say. They always tell me it's wonderful no matter how bad it is and that's just not helpful.
I used to do a lot of play writing and was part of a writing group for five years. There's a technique to knowing what to do with the evaluations you get on your writing and it works the same with songs. But it takes time to be able to figure out what people are actually saying about your work and then figuring out how to make chances that address the comments.
Derek:
Didn't take the time to read all the responses (you have a great following!), so don't know if this has been mentioned.
We have over 50 members in the Minnesota Association of Songwriters, which meets monthly. One or two hours of that meeting is given to critiquing each others' songs. We have members who have been published, recorded and gotten airtime, so the mix of knowledge is pretty high. Sometimes we get to hear the results of a re-write at subsequent meetings!
My two cents...
Derek, another great question!
I agree that to have a open forum with other songwriters analizing and suggesting ways to take a song in a different direction would be very helpful.
For me songwriting comes from a very special palce inside of me, a very deep and private place, so to let stragers hear songs I'm working on could be very scary and emotional, but through the process of opening up to understand it's OK to let people see and feel that place within me. After all that place of limbo, neither human or spirit is where you MUST be able to open your body to when you perform!
By way of growing past the disscomfort of being told "this or that" should be changed about one of your songs and exposing your creative source in a uncomfortable way you can learn to just stay in that place allowing the source of it to become WHO YOU ARE COMPLETELY at all times.
This is the secret of why all of our greatest artists, writers, and thinkers (i.e. Albert E.) for our entire human history have had "MAGNETIC" quality to them. People all over the world connect and are drawn to these figures without ever meeting them.
It is this ability that is within every human, to embrace our divinity within by rejecting fear
and limitation and allowing the "SOURCE" of
creation to envelope all you are. In doing so alllowing yourself to become who you truly were born to be, the light!
- dominick Joseph
I have a few well-placed "reviewers" that are very familiar with the particular genre of music I write (latin jazz/salsa). These include professional DJ's, reviewers, and "just plain folks". I also send stuff to my father, but he's last on my list ;).
When I have a new song I'm working on, I send each of them a rough copy (as an MP3) and solicit feedback. In exchange, every one of my reviewers gets a copy of my latest CD when released. I consider it small payment for the invaluable insight they provide.
Once I've got favorable reviews from everyone, then I proceed to send the song(s) out en-masse. If unfavorable, I go back and tweak and start the process over.
The last CD I completed took two years from start to finish...but I was VERY satisfied with the results, and the resulting "professional" reviews were all very favorable.
Derek,
I use a combination of sources to get feedback on new songs.
1-My wife is ruthless-if I can't keep her attention or if something strikes her as illogical or strange, she'll let me know.
2-Trusted songwriters I know personally. I play it for them without the aid of a lyric sheet, then hand them the lyric sheet afterwards to jog their memory about things they may have misunderstood or that they thought could be strengthened.
3-I pass out audience response cards with each song listed by name at performances where it is appropriate and ask for specific feedback on each song. This of course implies that you know in advance the names and order of songs you are going to perform.
Clive Romney
i thought it was interesting what Bono said in a recent interview with the british magaziine Q. When asked why he would play his new album from his terrace on a french beach (where someone recorded the songs on their mobile and put them on the internet) he said he didn't play his songs to other to hear what they thought. He played them to gauge how HE felt about them once they were in the public domain. The point being i guess that we don't always know if WE'RE happy with our work until we let the light of an audience shine on it!!!
When I think it's done, I play it to my harshest critic - my wife! She can see through things I kid myself about!
Ask your self few questions
1st why you writing a song? If you writing for a reason!
Is it your own fresh original idea?
Is this idea trigger from listening other song/music track?
--------------------------------------------------------------
By talking we can communicate information "MUSIC is for communicating emotions" therefore it can be major or minor very much depends on your feeling and emotion at the time of writing a song so don’t be precondition
I would leave all samples and ready made virtual instruments and start from scratch.
Good luck and best wishes, I am sure unique as you are would be able to contribute new sound to our music world.
Usually I play it for my wife,brother and friends but lets face it they fill in gaps in my life a stranger will not. As a member of taxi that is when I receive the real critique.I am still trying to grow.
Eddie Wells
Hey Derek,
I actually go through several different channels to get feedback. The purpose varies from song to song. Sometimes, there will be parts I'm really not sure about and I need opinions on some of the ideas I may have, other times, I'm pretty much looking for validation of a finished product haha. But there are a few industry people I know that give great feedback, my friends are very honest, but constructive with their thoughts, and things like OurStage.com, Taxi.com and HitSongScience.com are other great tools to see how folks are getting (or not getting) into your music. And of course, fan feedback is probably one of the most important ways to get thoughts on a song. So for me, any or all of these methods are useful. The next question is, now that you have the feedback, what do you do with it?
Derek looks like a really nice guy.
He has that "glow" that only comes from never having to worry about money for the rest of your life. That kind of security releases feel-good drugs into the brain. You feel GREAT.
And everybody must get stoned.
So, we wind up playing games like this one, Derek preaching that everyone can make it like he did when it's totally impossible. There's just not enough room at the top.
Then again, 90% of everything is trash, which goes for most of these songs under discussion. But, we need the trash for the good stuff to float on so it's visible.
So please, everyone keep pushing it out.
AB
Time. I hate writing projects with a deadline. Usually I've got 3 or 4 ready to go, then I wrestle with 3 or 4, then I just fill space. Oddly enough some of the best stuff is the space filler.
But as for feedback, nobody else can tell you what you are trying to say. I've asked some great songwriters (guys with gold records) how many times they change the lyrics before they're ready to record it, and as expected, they all said, right up to the last take.
I think Bowie is the only one I know that never goes into the studio until he's finished writing. He says he never writes in the studio.
Personally, I feel that songs come together in the studio. And I have a high standard writing lyrics. I laugh at people that write lyrics that I can predict. Phone/Stone Trick/stick yukkkkkkk
Try rhyming Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Hey Derek:
SongU.com has a very affordable way to get pro song feedback!
~Julie
www.GetMusicSuccess.com
We have a system in our band - I come up with a framework, usually an arrangement, melody, etc. I flesh it out as much as I can; then, our drummer and I start polishing it up. Once it resembles something that makes "sense", we bring it to the rest of the band, where we tweak the details until we're happy with it. No one outside the band hears it during this process. Once we're feeling good about it, we'll start doing demos, sharing them with various friends/mentors/mgmt types. We'll polish it some more, then start playing it live - that's the litmus test, the reaction and feedback from fans. But it's interesting - we worked with producer Sylvia Massy, and we learned that until you bring a song into the studio, it's nowhere near "finished". Even then, until it's recorded and released in an official way, it's still possible that it will change yet again.
I don't generally run songs by people. If I have an idea I'm working on it's usually just my own taste and gut reaction that concern me, though I do often run into a crossroads where I'm not sure what I want to do (whether it be a chord or lyric etc...). I'll then come up with a few options and run them by my partner, who usually will either prefer one of them or none, then it's back to the drawing board.
I also often do demos of songs well before I get to record them, and generally I've noticed that by the time it goes on an album I've made more changes than I'd realized.
I write songs to write the best song I can write, and that's what thrills me. However, in the presentation (arrangement, production style, mixing etc...), that's when I'll look for feedback from a wider circle of people. I want to get the essence of the song across, not dilute or obscure it.
Finally, I've noticed that I sometimes write a few songs that lead up to a final, more refined song that contains the best elements of the songs that came before it.
I am a Christian songwriter, so the most important thing for me is writing a song that is both current-marketable and on track with Scripture. I usually try to keep new songs pretty close and to the nest. My wife is always the first to hear (and my toughest critic. I'm not seeking praise, but I know if it passes her ears it may be worth playing for others.
I am a member of Taxi - but I have won song contests with songs they didn't like...so I now just go with my own instincts.
writing for me is a very personal endeavor and the only person I really run ideas past is my co-writer jason. we don't really rely on outside input when it comes to the song creation, although we love to hear peoples opinion and response once we have something completed and ready for public consumption. ultimately though, the lyrics and the melody are defined by us as the songwriters/artists.
musical tastes are varied and subjective.....what dif does it make if someone else thinks a song is good so long as you are getting the opportunity to express yourself in a medium you truly love.
I go to open mic's in my area and play the new songs. You get more of a mixed audience of other musicians and general listeners. And since it's not a full gig (you'd likely only be playing a couple of songs), the audience isn't overwhelmed so they can really zero in on the songs.
We're usually our own worst critics.
We'll play the heck out of a song. try it out in every (reasonably) re-arranged form, including different instruments (acoustic instead of electric, organ instead of piano, etc) and usually it'll click at some point and if we all (4 of us) feel good about it, then great. if not, we'll shelf it for a while a try it again later.
Hi, Derek!
There is a great organization in Baltimore that I have been a part of for 10 years called The Baltimore Songwriters Association. http://baltimoresongwriters.org/
They have song critiques and advanced song critiques every month. I have found these sessions to be invaluable and bring many new songs to the group. There are guidelines (you have to say something positive before you say something negative, etc.), so mostly the feedback I get is thoughtful. (Even if it's not it's always good to hear!)
The BSA has been going strong for over 10 years and hosts open mics, juried compilation CDs, as well as showcases featuring local songwriters. I'm on the bill for next month, and the show will be broadcast live on the internet radio station, "Umbrella Radio." http://www.umbrellaradio.org/radio/Welcome.html
Very cool scene we have here in B-more!
thanks for all you do,
much love,
sahffi
If you play an unfinished piece to a group of say a half a dozen people, the chances are you'll get six different opinions and you'll end up more confused than before. I think you need to trust in your own judgement a lot of the time. After all, isn't that why you became a song writer in the first place? However, if you've hit a wall and you're stuck for ideas, by all means put it out there and ask for some honest feedback, which btw isn't that easy to come by.
I see song writing essentially as a subjective process and I can't imagine playing an unfinished song to anyone until I've done as much with it as I possibly can (unless it's a collaboration and I need to send it off to a lyricist / vocalist to work on for example), but that's just me.
Another thing I do is to leave it alone for days or weeks at a time and approach it again later on with fresh ears. It can sound very different and the bits that don't work are usually a lot more obvious.
I will sometimes play it for a friend and see what there initial response is to the song.But more than not when I have written knew material I will test it out at a show and see the audience response and how it felt to perform it and sometimes how it felt with the band. There are a lot of songs that only get played once and some just become a writing exercise for perhaps a song that will make it into a set. I don't know about everyone else, but I write a lot of stuff that never makes it to "prime time" as I like to say. When I do get a note I am pretty open for changing things, especially if a band member makes a suggestion that really works. I have expanded songs because a fan wanted to hear more of the chorus, for example.
I have three or four merciless critics I send lyrics to. They care more about the art than my feelings and so I value them immensely. But mainly it is in singing it for people, whether they say anything or not, that the cringe factor comes into play. What has changed for me over the last few years is that as soon as the initial blast of the song is out, I can turn on my critical brain while I'm still in the zone of creating imagery, and go back over it two or three times until it really is something new.
My home-base town goes through phases with songwriting groups but when we have a good one going, I find the experience invaluable for tweaking material.
I have posted new songs to MySpace to get feedback from fans as well and of course there's nothing like a live audience applauding wildly or staring dumbstruck to determine if a song's working or not
I have had the most success with friends & acquaintances in what we call a "song circle". 5-6 of us will meet at someone's houe for a couple hours once or twice per month. Everbody plays a "baby" song for critique. Of course, you have to have trust. And you have to learn how to receive feedback.
I have learned over the years that I don't have to apply everbody's feedback. In fact, usually nobody expects me to. I've also learned that I can try a suggested new direction for a song, then discard it if it goes off the tracks. I also do not have to hold every comment in equal regard. I consider the source carefully. For instance: The blues writer in my group may poo-poo my folk song. That's OK, it's not his bag, baby!
The feedback process we use is called the "stars & wishes" formula which says: give three things you like *before* diving into assessment of the weak spots of a particular song. That way It's always honest, just more palatable for the songwriter being critiqued.
How does the internet fit into all of this? I'm not sure that with e-mail it would work as well. Song circles I have been part of have been quasi-successful with one group member listening in on skype. A live video feed might be cool.
But overall the "in-person" song circle is the best way for me to get feedback. I think you need that tone of voice and body language before, during, and after the performance to be able to understand feedback comments appropriately.
Just my two cents...
In Music,
Jamie Purnell
Those workshops can be very helpful, especially to songwtiters who do not have access to established, hit songwriters. I was very fortunate to spend countless mornings at the kitchen table with Ed Bruce (Mommas Don;t Let Your Babies..., Texas When I Die, See The Big Man Cry, One, etc). I was a "row rat" in Nashville for 15 years and places like The Blue Bird and Douglas Corner provided opportunities to present new songs to a room full of songwriters. "The Blue Bird Clap" was the polite, yet unenthusiastic applause given to everyone who performed. However, on rare occassions, it was a sure fired sign that you had something when they cheered, or whistled, or yelled, "Yeah, Bud!" In my opinion, there is no better way to fine-tune a song than to play it for a room full of other writers. When the majority says, "Man, I wish I had written that." Stop re-writing. Otherwise, keep sifting the flour. DBLANCO
I've found that most people, outside of the music industry, can't really judge a song in it's raw form, such as a guitar/vocal demo. So I don't play my new songs for anyone until I have a finished, properly recorded product, with full instrumentation.
Knowing every song I write is not going to be great, I still don't rely on outside input, but rather trust my own "gut" instinct. The only opinions I truly value are from the musicians that helped in the recording. When I've finished a batch of songs, I try to throw out the stinkers, and stick with the ones that I feel good about. Bubba D. Liverance
Hi Derek,
This question recently came up in the forum at FAWM. (February Album Writing Month) There is a comment field for participants to give immediate feedback on the lyrics and the demo (if there is one). There's even a little reminder near the comment field to "Be honest but respectful with feedback".
There are two (or more) schools of thought on this. One says to just comment on the songs that you like and don't say anything to those that might not be up to a certain level. The other is to be brutal and tell them exactly whats wrong with it. Most folks fall in the middle and give 'gentle' constructive critique based on the experience level of the songwriter.
There's no right or wrong way to do it. Some of the songwriters participating will specify in the 'liner notes' that they'd welcome complete honesty.
For my own personal writing, I will play it until I'm comfortable with it and then ask my wife and immediate family. Then I'll play it out a few time and get a bead on audience reaction on if it's a keeper.
Usually I'll get together with friends to play a session and try out new tunes with them. Or I'll ask my husband, one of the most brutally honest people I know.
Sometimes I'll write a tune just before going to a gig, and since my band can sightread pretty much anything, we'll tell the audience that we have something brand new and then launch into it. Even if it is a train wreck, the audience has a great time seeing us plow our way through a new tune, and we have a great time working it out on stage.(I guess this probably works better with jazz than with pop, but hey, you never know...)
Carnal rooterbagger?
Actually, I don't solicit anyone's opinions on my music. I just put it out there and if people like it, fine. If they don't, whatever. I'm not doing it for anyone but myself, anyway.
I play it for regular everyday ordinary people who aren't sound engineers. I figure if a regular joe thinks the song is good or great or awsome,that's a good start because they're the people that buy the music. Just a guitar and vocal should be good enough to tell if it's great. Of course you can't sing and play it like your tonedeaf, so if you can niether sing or play guitar or whatever instrument, convey it to someone who can interpret it for you or think about how maybe "this isn't for you" and find what you are good at. Maybe you'd be better at sports? But who's to say who sounds good and who sounds bad, you could just call it a "Style" or "New Genre" of music. Say like a new "disonent and inharmonic screaming at the top of your lungs" style. People might like that!
I'm a full time busker in NYC. I have the luxury of testing songs on an unsuspecting public. Typically we just go for it and if we sell a few cd's or make some tips we know the song is working. If our audience disperses we know we either have to make some changes: dump the fucker or keep practicing till gets tight. After 4 or 5 gigs we know what the songs' fate will be.
RE: What do you do for feedback on a new song you're writing?
I used to play in bands and didn't care if anyone liked the songs or not. We just rocked out and had fun. And if the band has fun, everyone else has fun.
But, once I became a solo acoustic performing/singer/songwriter, I attended music expos, festivals, and conferences. I learned everything I could learn, like a sponge I absorbed it all. At the beginning of my solo adventure I was naive and used companies like Sonicbids, spending money with no results. NEVER again! Couldn't get any action. I marketed to nationwide radio with tiny success. I sought out everyone I could find to review my music, with tiny success. I networked like crazy on Myspace, to the world, and thats when I noticed I had fans all around the world who loved my music. That helped me believe in myself because I struck an international nerve, I had listeners around the world, how cool is that?!
The best thing that has helped me, was going to Master Sessions and listening to the great minds behind the songs I grew up loving. The epiphany was understanding that most of the great artist (performing/singer/songwriters) were rejected by everyone and in that process it made them believe in the music they write and to believe in themselves.
I do remember going to the Durango Songwriters festival for the 2nd time and sitting in a pitch session with Marshall Altman (producer of Matt Nathanson, Marc Brousard, Kate Voegle) and I was the 2nd to last critique. I heard these amazing productions and I was scared. Marshall was pickin-em apart like they were all mediocre and here I recorded a song in my bedroom. When he played my song, he said "this is a GREAT song","there nothing for me to tell you" then he grabbed his guitar and started playing and singing the song as the whole class started singing along. That scared the daylights out of me, I didnt know what was going on. I guess what Im trying to say, sometimes when you get someone in the business that gives you great feedback, it surely can light a fire under your butt. Those moments happen occasionally at pitch sessions. Attending festivals is a good thing early on in your career if you can afford them. But the end result is when someone tells you "thats a Great Song", they are just reaffirming probably what you already know.
So, once you believe in yourself and your music, you wont ever care about a critique anymore. Failure is wanting money for your art. Art is not about money. Success is touching someone's heart, even if its only one. What more would you ever need...
Love and Peace
I have good intuition about my songs and I always know, for example, when they're NOT finished -- tha means when they're no good.
I play them for my father. He's very tough with lyrics and he'll tell me.
I sing them for my mother. If she cries, I've nailed another one.
Then I sing them for the public, if they cry I know I have a hit.
The important thing is to know yourself if the song is any good. And that comes from practice and also from reading Sheila Davis.
When I started writing I just did it and let it flow. I didn't care if anyone "got it". If it had a groove I liked it. Lyrics are difficult for me and if I get hung up on them then no song gets written. I have not been able to find many places to get HONEST feedback. If you aren't cool nobody cares about what you write even if it's good... and if you are cool you can write sh*t and get all kinds of glory. It's how you look baby.
I do not solicit advice on songs. If I cannot figure it out or I'm stuck I just wait. There are some god-awful hit songs written by the "best in the industry". If you are honest, you know what's good and what's not. Remember, because it's selling doesn't mean it's good. I mean, think how many Big Macs are sold every year. Stick to your guns and be real. It's all you've really got.
Barn-owl carpetbagger?
When I review a cd, I like to involve everyone that has supported my music. What I do before I meet with these people is write down questions and notes on possibly how the song could be better. If your peers hear your song and agree with what you think, then go back to the lab and fix it up.
Hi D,
Good question. When I make new music I post it to Facebook, and "Share" it with a select group of my friends. Anyone linked to my profile can listen to the audio if they look for it, but this select group will give me their feedback. I usually choose people who are going to give some constructive criticism, and a few people who I want to keep in touch with career wise, and a few people that I'm just going to get a complement whatever I do, but the intelligent criticisms are golden.
Home-brew sneaker-legger!
i put it on a record and start doing it at shows.
i don't really look for any comment on it one way or the other. i work on it till i like it and there you go. in my way of looking at things if i work on something for a few weeks, it's not going to do me much good to have someone listen for eight bars and start making comments because they don't know what it is i'm building. that's kind of what's dicey about criticism of art. if you just look at the result, how can you judge what it is without talking to the artist about it. maybe he was doing something that the critic isn't catching. why focus group and change it because people love to comment on stuff and change it? i'd say, stick with the art and keep writing. i ignore all that stuff.
Darn old table-begger!
I try to let as few people as possible have influence on me when I am writing a song. I don't mean I don't have influences. Obviously everything I have ever heard, seen, or experienced has influenced me.
But I consider a song to be a little piece of art and I want it to be as much straight from the gut as possible.
When I've finished a song, it is pretty much finished for good. But, I take it to a stage somewhere, just before it's finished - just before it feels like it's been cemented - and I will play it for an audience. I don't look for audience reaction as much as I listen to the song in this new environment and I try to see how it flows. Lots of times in these situations, little nuances will suggest themselves to me. Maybe, I change a word here or there, or the bridge gets a new dynamic. These changes are just based on the difference of a song bouncing around in my living room verses floating out to a crowd.
When I finish writing a song, I usually have the arrangement already worked out as well, but if it's a song for my band then I'm totally open to ideas from the others.
That said, I LOVE LOVE LOVE, making suggestions to other people when they are writing songs. Sometimes, they even listen to me.
Suckers.
Well for myself I usually play it for several people to see how they like it. (friends, family,Co-workers, business partners) Then I email it to specific people who fit the audience of listeners most likely to purchase to get their opinion. I usually want to know how it makes them feel. Next I would play it at a club. I know several Dj's and if its a dance track. If people get up and dance to it. I know its a good song. I sometimes don't tell people who produced first before I play to allow for unbiased feedback. I have noticed if you tell people you did it sometimes feedback is not genuine.
I use a MAC, I turn on a track,
wooo poetry!
Its my reliable work horse that I can count on anytime to record a basic idea of what the spark was.
The words or the melody.
Then I put it to a feel.
Songs are secret for me till I release them.
No one has a say.
And I don't ask!
If they did I'd honestly feel obliged to give them the credit for part of it.
My art, my thoughts, and my melodies.
Some say I need a producer....what I'd likely need is money to pay someone to do what I aught to be able to do myself(as an artist)
Everything doesn't always need to be perfect. Just perfectly true and as pure you as possible.
Then you really are what you are selling, however humble the pkg. Not a room full of paid talent and machines.
Co writing is a different entity obviously.
As is being in a co op (band)
In the early days folks would suggest
"why don't you write one like so and so" who is popular at the time but to me this is copy cat mainstream for the wanna bees.
Or for money?
There's so much of that, in todays music.
Personally I'm happy to be independent from outside forces.
I try to just be me. Even if its unpopular or considered not in demand or what ever. All the better to be left alone to just be true to my art.
I
Hope this helps someone find {their} way.
TONES™
Derek,
If I like my new song,I usually run it by my beautiful wife first, because Im too cheap these days to go to all the neat places of audition, like song writers' groups, barbeque houses, and ladies' clubs.
If my wife likes it (She is a masters in English.), then I run it by my band. If they like it, that's when we play it in public. If the public likes it, then I get to sell CDs. That seems to be the bottom line for this song writer.
Blessings, and soldier on,
Bob Blackshear
We play new songs at shows and make changes based on the audience reactions. It's the ultimate test market. If the energy in the room dies when we play the new song we know we need to keep working at it.
Good, constructive critique is not always easy to get. There are some other writers I may discuss songs and songwriting with, but mostly it's the response from fans and friends that give some indication. I'm an acoustic singer/guitarist often performing solo or with a small band, and what's important to me is to catch an interest and hold the attention, have someone listening to my voice and the words throughout.
Listening to others' songs and reflecting upon if and why they work for you as a listener can be a good way to learn to look at your own work as your own critic. Workshops etc may be good to learn the tools for analysing, how to dissect a set of lyrics, but personally I think you should be aware of the risk of getting too mainstream. What the broad majority seems to like may not be what you're aiming for. Doing everything by the songwriters' schoolbook may put you in danger of becoming redundant. Personality and originality is everything, probably more today than ever. Listen to people who seem to understand what you're doing, who seem to be the natural audience for your material.
I have some songwriting friends that know me well and give good feedback. This can be done in many ways, like over internet forums. I also do FAWM (www.fawm.org) every year.
Hank Williams would ask everybody - even non-musicians. This worked well for him. And I have been to a couple of song circles where I have gotten some good suggestions. But I see music as time travel. It is a CONSTANT push to move from the moment of execution to the instant of perception. I believe MOST of the songwriters I admire and seek to emulate have reached a point where they know that MUCH of their own magic - greatness as artists - lies in the utter conviction of the execution of that moment. The opinion of someone NOT inside the emotional source from which the beauty originated will, in all likelihood NOT add anything - and may actually detract from the result. What if someone told Neil Young he should lower the key of his songs so he wouldn't have to sing in that nasal falsetto? Picture an unknown Tom Waits on American Idol. Feedback is good - up to a point. That point is realizing there is an artist you are meant to be, and you need to give yourself over to TRUSTING the all-encompassing spirit of who that artist is. When we reach that state of self-confidence in our music we won't need the validation of someone w/ a different agenda. The best songs (to my ears) come from someone who has learned to connect their inner spirit w/ the whole of the universe and the songs they make vibrate w/ THAT energy. Am I there yet? Nope. But in seeking to connect what is best and unique about my music w/ the philosophies of great artists who always stayed true to their vision - and who I'm sure don't ask for much feedback anymore - I'm on my way to being the artist I'm meant to be. Hank Williams was amazing as well.
http://www.myspace.com/camphoodstudios
For me what works is to talk about the song topics in conversations aside from letting people hear just the plain music before vocals added... if that helps.
I play my new stuff for the general public and my friends & never really get constructive analyses at all. It seems like my stuff is largely misunderstood and I just force it out there. It did not matter - I was mainly pissed at the majority of voters all during the Bush years! I was out to shock mthrfckers anyway! There was no way my stuff was going to get signed or anything. But these days there are a few rewards for sticking it out back then. It just depends on whether you are going for mass appeal or a more ANTI-POP approach.
I usually post it online and I have a certain website I look at for feedback. They are really mean spirited individuals who listen to my music, and so if I get any love there whatsoever, I see that as positive...haha!
The songs I have written in past ten years have been for recordings by two different singers using mostly the same backing musicians in the studio. I create a scratch track with another musician and get his feedback and more often than not, the song undergoes some change at that point, at least a change in how I had it arranged. Then, when the singer hears it, it is usually accepted or rejected with few, if any other changes. During rehearsal, the other musicians may suggest minor changes, again, usually just in how it is arranged or the rhythm or tempo. Their ideas for lyric changes are almost always bad and I usually ignore those suggestions. Once we get to the studio, the producer, singer and other musicians give their input after hearing a more or less final version and the songs that everyone agrees are best for the project are accepted and the others not used for the album. I often rework the rejections, sometimes using as little as a couple lines of the lyric for another song. The rejections are kept in my notebooks along with other song ideas and unfinished songs.
Lately when I finish a song, I put it on a video also and place it on my You Tube site. The downloads gives me some idea about how well I fared on the song.
It depends what your aim is. Are you trying to please everyone? Anyone? Are you a lone warrior passionately holding fast to your artistic integrity or are you gunning for the middle in a desperate fit of mediocrity?
For myself, when I ask for feedback I've probably pretty much finished and I'm trying to gauge reaction more than glean suggestions. I might act on criticism like "the intro is to long" or the guitar sound is really annoying" but really, I'm not trying to write songs by committee - it's my work and you either like it or you don't.
Having said that, like others I've had really valuable feedback on garageband.com
Even if you don't intend to change a damn thing about your song it's interesting to hear what other people like and dislike about it. You get these interesting demographic quirks, for example you might post a song that Norwegians just love and everyone else hates.
That kind of info is way more meaningful to me than "you should repeat the chorus at the end to make it up to 3 minutes".
I sent an email to CDBaby after someone made the first purchase of some music, I wanted to thank them.
The reply was something to the extent, 'great, we like to know that everything is working'
huh ?
that is like not reassuring at all
(...fabled borscht-baker)
I use a few close friends for feedback and always welcome constructive criticism.
Music being so subjective it's hard to distance yourself as a writer/composer to a listener on your own music in order to have an objective opinion.
What I like to do before I invite others for a listen is to walk away from it for a while and then come back to it. If the song still evokes an emotion with a clear lyrical message, it gives me the confidence that I have captured the essence of the song.
I think that in the end any piece of music is subjective. Also, I've had the experience of having friends of different tastesand expertise including musicians and dancers listen to my rough mixes. I usually filter out the criticism that stems from the roughness of the mix -- i.e. I try not to get irritated by those comments and yet engage the deeper comments.. I think being honest to oneself is key to making good music but also these kinds of trial exercises give us the chance to gauge ourselves in terms being in touch with the society we're living in.. are we reflecting a message that resonates with people or is it about a personal journey?
Check out my "Message" song/video on YouTube ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMWiH_dlAeg
The best feedback is almost always audience response at a show. Sprinkle a new original in between a couple standard covers. If there's no "letdown" in the momentum of the set, that's a good sign. If the original garners some applause, even better. If the surrounding covers DON'T garner applause, better still.
You can often even tell the weak points in a new song by closely watching people's reactions. Is there a point in the song where they seemingly lose interest and/or look away? THERE is your problem spot.
The only other method to get true feedback is to play it for a professional whose judgement you fully trust. But I'll take 5 "auditions" at a gig over 1 professional's opinion any day of the week.
The absolute WORST judge is your family. In most cases they will simply not be able to be objective.
There is no substitute for trotting the song out into the real world. If it resonates with me... meaning I come back to it... remember it... want to play it... Then I'll play it for friends, family, other musicians, and at gigs. I know one mistake I've made is record songs before they've had a chance to live and breath... as in... playing them live... with different arrangements... you tend to find out the lasting power and core of what makes the song... sometimes lyrics fall away as un-necessary and you realize that only a couple of verses were needed and the chorus's really could all be the same. OK, that's enough for now. Derek, thanks for doing this...
i put it on myspace or youtube and see what kind of response it gets...there's way too many songwriters.
After I write a piece of music, I put it away for a few weeks or months. When I come back to the music, I almost always find things that need to be refined, so I make changes in those places. This process is repeated until I can no longer hear the need for change. At this point, I feel the music is ready to be heard by others. Hopefully, it will be appreciated, but if not, I won't make any more changes.
When we perform we solicit feedback as well as friends.
bob
Oh, on the "Arnold Schwarzenegger" rhyme, I like it when people choose another syllable to rhyme than the last - e.g. don't even try to rhyme the "egger", rhyme the "oldschwarz" instead.
Eminem is a master of this trick.
The one thing that never fails is playing a new song at a show. I had a song I was convinced was a hit. Played it live 3 times, and received a lackluster response. That says it all. If hundreds of people in a club don't like it, chances are millions of people around the world won't like it either.
Hi Derek,
I will try to develop the song as far as I can then ask my children what they think... I will take note of childrens opinions more than adults. As for industry specialists - I don't pay much attention to what they write or say because I find they will nearly always be listening out for something or over analysing.
If I am truely happy about how far I can take it then I punt it out and move on to the next one...
Well, this thread is so long my comment probably won't even get read but. I have 2 full length CDs out. I used to pubmit alot of songs to garageband but the feedback was more often stupid and irrelevent than good, so I get my wife's and 27 year old son's opinions and that's it. I ask them to listen to the mix, volume of the parts, clarity, not necessarily the venue. And as said before, if I'm really happy with the song, it's done!!! Thanks for asking Derek...
When I write I am making art. My art is best when unfiltered.
Therefore I play it for anyone who wants to hear it but my motivation is not feedback, I just want to share it with them. Why would I ask anyone's opinion on art I'm making? This isn't a group project for me.
here's a good description of how I write a song. Feedback? I'm my hardest critic! If the song passes the truck test, it's probably a good one:
http://latejoysblog.blogspot.com/2008/08/how-i-wrote-song-bloody-little-numbers.html
Play a new song you have written
to a live audience. Don't mention that you wrote it and find out the re-action. If it attracts no attention, maybe you should rewrite it.That will assure an honest opinion.
I usually turn to pros if I think I have a great song. I ask for suggestions to improve the song. Specific: Does the chorus or hook works for them too? Any words that sounds bad? Suggest synonyms! How does the variations in the energy of the song works? Suggest improvements. How about intrumentation? Will less be more? Has the song an exciting dynamic structure? What do they think will improve that? Do they get any other ideas? New or altered lyric lines? Any ideas about artist or group to perform the song?
If you get a reaction from the audience and they are intrigued - you've got yourself a good song. If you love to perform it - you've got yourself a great song!
Had a nightmare about Arnold Schwarzenegger,
spent the next week on life support in the
endless arms of Marigold Moonraker,
riding in her new gold Porsche
It is a fairly intimate process, and process is perhaps not the most adequate word because it suggests some kind of method.
I like to take things to an almost final stage before showing them to other people. There's some people around to whom I look for feedback but I'd rather not let them know themselves how important that is. It is very often people who do not care much for what I do and who have totally different tastes than those of mine. Very rarely they are musicians.
Also, it is not much about what is told but how it feels to share a listen. To do it with the type of stuff I do can turn out to be quite embarassing. It is not good time music and it is all about to translate a very personnal take on aesthetical issues. Both words and music should convey a "texture", a different type of thickness in the air.
Probably the best way of checking things is to perceive how collaborators react. Nowadays, with the available technology, it is tempting to write songs alone, to play almost all instruments, not allowing external influences. Here, even if arrangements are laid, I'd rather give them to someone else who can make something out of them than to work solely on my own. Same with producing/mixing/mastering stages. At least on the technical level you may only learn from the experience.
Finally, as important as feedback may be, it is fundamental to not allow it to stand on the way. Not if you somehow know what you want. Not when you are somehow lost inside it (it is part of this craft). Especially not if you know that what you're doing is NOT supposed to be ruled by market laws.
I write first of all to please myself. I HAVE COPYRIGHTED more than190 songs, but have recorded only 36. I am self critical to an extreme. For example: I have only recorded one cover , Bob Dylan: Buckets Of Rain. Because it was right. Therefore, I am happy with what I have recorded so far. I have heard many song writers say they never listen to what they have recorded: BS! Listen to every song I record, and I like, sometimes love them all. Love what you do ,or do not record. Derek, thank you for all the opportunities to express what we as songwriters go through to reproduce ourselves.
I
I don't know of anything on the internet. Basically I put it out to friends. I've been a member of Taxi for several years but have some problems with them. Although,I will say that much of my writing improvements have come from Taxi suggestions.I know there are some music organizations that will preview songs but I haven't researched that option.
I don't really worry too much about feedback. I write, record and play the songs that I feel good about and that has always worked out well for me. My girlfriend always gives pretty honest feedback though, even if I sometimes completely disregard it in favor of my own opinion of a song! I'm also a pretty harsh critic of myself.
I don't ask for opinions but I usually get them anyways! There is so much that one person may think is the coolest thing they've ever heard while another person may think is the worst! Write what you like and hope for the best, that's the only way a true reflection of your singular person will shine through. Now I offer classes on songwriting along with my music lessons and I can teach a basic method to arrange your song but in the end the final product is in your hands. Use what's in your heart and go with the feeling over thinking it out every time.
Traditional marketing says, "Get feedback from your test market," but I'm weird because I just let the public decide with their wallets. Basically, I write from the heart, and I write what I want. I don't want to sound like a clone of someone else. Ironically, though, I've been dubbed "The American Enya," so go figure!
I sometimes play a completed song for someone and not tell them it's mine. If they like it they almost always say isn't that a so and so song or didn't that band do that number. I've got some really honest reactions.
I worked for Tree publishing which is now Sony/ATV as a songplugger and writer back in the 80's. The one thing that was lacking for the up and coming writers was a "live" experience where they were requirred to perform their songs in a live setting. Now as a singer/songwriter it's the best way for me to see how the audience reacts to my songs.
That's funny question for me... because I stop writing songs with word around 10 years ago. My English when I compare it with my Russian is not good at all... But I still write songs all the time. Just with no words - music will say everything I wanted to say with words. I really don't care who thinks what about my songs. But I like to play them. I would play new song for my family and friends, I don't want their opinion, but when I do it I can feel music in different way than I'm just with myself. Then if it is appropriate I pay this music at my gigs with the full loud sound and then I have another feeling of music. Sometimes it lead me to some changes, but in general I rely on my feelings, not somebody else. In the past I was a member of different songwriters clubs, and we had a sessions with opinions, discussions etc, - lots of fun! I would love to recreate FUN of it! But not critique... Yeah! If we want to improve something - we should LOVE THE WAY HOW to do it. Process, communications. (not "result oriented" process - usually will lead you nowhere.
Anyway that is what I think and it is good for me and maybe useless for somebody else.
Good luck everybody!
You know, I used to to song workshops and realized that most of the people there were little parrots quoting the irrellevant "amazing truths" of their misguided teacher.
I since then don't give much of a grain of salt's interest in what they have to say or friends. I go by my gut, and it's good enough.
Occasionally, I'll let a producer slip some advice my way, but usually, I find if the song works for me, it works for everyone else.
The feedback route is a dead end circular road of confusion.
Only if the person you're getting feedback from is truly gifted will it get you anywhere, and only then, if they understand your song.
I think if you have studied your craft and done it long enough, you will know enough to not need the blind to lead the blind, as most of the people who claim to be songwriters or even songwriting instructers are really clueless wannabees.
Hi Derek, I've put a few tunes on www.garageband.com. I prefer to play songs live and see if the audience connects. I also like to bring the song into practice with the band; if they begin finding parts and playing along, I'll keep it. If they ignore it, I figure it doesn't grab them so I take it back and rework it until I get a better reaction.
Dear Derek,
Opinions mean nothing unless they are coming from a season songwriter/composer with real credits to his or her name. It is obvious that if you have attended Berklee College of Music you probably have a strong music theory background. Instead of looking for opinions you should concentrate on your own ability to write strong lyrics and compose good music. My teachers always said simplicity and tastefulness is the key to a great record. Good luck in your song-writing and listen to your own soul.
I started to write music, in 2000, to a major label. All my music was rejected, for one year. Since then I have 36 national releases with them. My last song was excepted, it took me 9 months to perfect one song! Now in Feb 2009, its on there new album. Dedication is the secret, never give up!!
When I play a song for anyone else, it is already finished in the sense that it is a playable song that I would perform in front of an audience. If someone has a comment I listen, and I have occasionally followed someone else's advice to alter a lyric or change the order of verses.
I never ask anyone's opinion or seek advice unless there is a specific question that I am unsure of. That happens, but not often.
As far as showing a work in progress to someone goes, remember the old adage: Never show unfinished work to a fool.
Why to ask anybody to comment? My pieces are to be different from any other already made, and people are thirsty to listen new music. The common ones, we can find on radio!
In case a piece has weak technical points, professional musicians will complain anyway.
I live in Chicago and have gone to the Old Town School of Folk Music for formal feedback. I decided to take private songwriting lessons for the specific purpose of having my music critiqued. I worked really hard and feel my songs are better for it. Other Chicago songwriters I know have taken group critique classes at the OTS and have found that to be beneficial.
As the sole songwriter for our band, after I'm finished writing a song I'll sing it for the band with just an acoustic guitar. If they like it, we go from there with bass and drums. We'll start playing it live (as an acoustic three-piece) until it's time to record it. Once we get into the studio to record the song, I'll add more instrumentation. Sometimes I'll know what I want to add before we start, but mostly that's done 'in the moment.' A couple of times that has completely changed the song altogether.
Never stopping, indeed the secret.
I write in my home studio using an old ADAT 8 track and mix to a CD burner. When I have the basic song complete, I do a rough mix and share it with two friends. My wife and the VP of my record label.
They are both very supportive and 9 times out of 10 give me a positive review. I don't recommend workshops or looking for critiques of your songs. I recommend writing, writing and more writing.
Eventually you will start to save more songs than you trash.
Keep On Writing,
Nelsen
Every time I've tried collaboration, the song looked like a camel does (designed by a committie)- If one is honest with himself, you know in your soul if the song is good or not. But just to make sure I run a new tune past my wife. I can tell by her eyes if it is any good. It must work, since I have had over fifty tunes coverd. No brag just fact.
I use Garageband.com and get reviews from around the world. To be able to put song on the site, you have to review anonymous songs. Your review is also review by other members. We are always very surprised to see which songs make it to the top of the ratings. Also, most of the reviews are by other musicians/songwriters. Check out what I mean...
http://www.garageband.com/artist/shift_7
http://www.garageband.com/artist/tlg_project
I generally would NOT showcase a
song I am working on until I am comfortable it is legally protected.
I don't record without first copyrighting.
Therefore , my work is done in isolation but I do play things for
my students some time that I'm working on.
Feedback occurs after publication
for me. The actual creation process for me is bliss and I care little if others like or don't like what I do, what's important is did I create original art I am
happy with or not.
Other people's opinions may not be valid indicators of truth , since they may or may not be listening
subjectively to what you create. Perhaps they may judge you on the inferiority and lack of their own creativity . Truth still shines -
if you are creating art and are a good writer it will prevail.
If your work is really superior , your peers may in fact react negatively to your work out of their own insecurity and lack
of ingenuity.
Your ego can destroy your spiritual connection to the sublime powers that help your create. The act of creation to me is spiritual, I am humble, and realize I am part of a universal flow in time and space. Our lives are grains of sands in this ocean and clinging to your ego is an illusion and lie. Free your self from ego , and creative bliss is yours.
When my song and/or art is to be born, only then will it be ready for popular consumption. You can feel it in your bones....I have never taken my songs outside for someone to critique. They do not know what original source has brought the song to life for me. Everyone has a bias, if it's not theirs, then it's not going to be yours. When songs are in the incubator of development, only God knows where it’s going to end up. Whenever the song is now to get out of its incubator, I will take it to my studio for recording and after it's well crafted, and ready for the public, then I will I allow others to listen to it. By then the baby is born and no one can kill it [i.e., the vision from which came the song idea].
I go straight to the most critical, musically-educated, no BS person I know.
It has taken years for me to find this guy. He's different because he doesn't care if his opinion hurts my feelings or not.
90% of the material I present to him is criticized to one degree or another. The other 10% is judged less harshly, but he will say something like, "I would like to hear some guitar riff in this section." etc.
This guy opens my eyes to a lot of things I invariably overlook in the heat of giving birth to my latest and cutest new "baby".
Do I incorporate ALL of his feedback and immediately go back to the drawing board?
Nope.
Instead, I leave his house feeling a touch deflated, yet energized to know my abilities as a songwriter are proven and I've got it all over him in the overall scheme of things.
Rather, "my critic" is a sounding board that represents the general, cd-buying, downloading public. After all, why write something for an audience of 1?
Bottom line, if my critic doesn't connect with what I'm trying to universally communicate, then he's probably right most of the time.
The best advice ever given to me still holds water. Write what you know, don't write anything that you don't want to really happen and if you can't explain your song in one sentence..re-think what you are trying to say.
Don't be afraid to submit your songs to real publishers. Real publishers are in this for one thing, making money. Most publishers hear hundreds of songs a week and can spot a good one when they hear it. Most publishers will be dead honest and give you a critique that is constructive and will help you write that hit song.
Write, re-write and write again. Don't try writing a masterpiece just write and the masterpiece will come to you.
When I do a new song, my family and good friends are the first to hear it. I put the new song on cd or bring them in my studio for a listen.
Later on in the process when I'm finished with lyrics (if there are some) and the production is well advanced, I like to play it in parties and that..in between other music..without notice and I wait..will there be comments or will it go unnoticed..
Since I write, mix, produce, sing and does the mastering, in order to achieve objectivity, I do listen to my work a lot, in many places with many different people having different musical tastes.
If I like it, that's the sole reason for working on a new song and I consider that's good enough!
The feedback are little bells to keep the production process objective and solidly anchored in
achieving the best quality I can.
Marcomé
http://Marcome.com
I probably shouldn't reply but--since we never work from charts and are completely improvisational jazz/fusion and lyrics, if any, are added when they work with what's happening, we don't have to deal with the song writing process. We do record our sessions though and work over the results till we have listenable "songs" of varying length and complexity. We often play CDs of these pieces for friends and other musicians and use their comments to further work over the music before we issue the CD. Sometimes we record live performances and with just a little remixing, put them on CDs and sell them pretty much as is. It just depends on the music and where and how it was recorded. We never play a song more than once and our recordings are the only proof they ever existed.
Typically I play it for a friend without necessarily heavy music knowledge (on acoustic guitar) just to see if they "like" it.... then if it ultimately passes the ranks of the band and/or other collaborators that is another level... then I play roughs for some other industry friends who'll tell me if its working or not. Then after its mixed and mastered, I play it for others still before being sure I want it released. Its a process....
Most of my songs are genre-specific, or I have another artist in mind when I write the song, and imagine them doing a version of it. Its just a technique I learnt while working for a publisher here many years ago.I will run new songs past the band members, my partner who has a well-educated ear, and a writing buddy who I have been working with for years. No-one is above criticism, nor should they be if they are serious about a 'persuit of excellence' in their songs. I well remember the story of McCartney turning up at Lennons place wth 'yesterday', and asking John "have you heard this before somewhere???" He had the strength of character to ask the question! Cheers, RW.
I send it to some of my friends in the online radio world. They are good about giving me feed back.Like my title track "Auburdeen" from my upcoming CD. I first sent it out to the pirate radio network and it became the most requested song for two weeks in a row on one of the stations.
I do a few things, depending on my mood and feeling for the song itself. I write mainly instrumental too. That may be important to some of my reasoning....
I have a set 3 or 4 folks that I run new stuff by to get a feel of how I'm doing. They've known me long enough not to hold back criticism, so I'm overjoyed when they like it, and moody and depressed when they don't! But writing instrumentals makes me want to be sure I'm conveying certain emotions without words, if that makes sense. So, when they catch on to my idea, I love it, when they get something else or more out of it, I love it even more.
That's usually what happens in the initial stages of a song. After I've revised edits, etc. I open up the critique to about 5-10 more folks. I have a "panel" of about 40 people who follow my work closely, and a large part of my success is due to them. I alternate who gets to listen to what, but my initial listen is always the same folks.
My panel consists of folks from every walk and age of life. I figure if I can touch the panel in some way, then I can touch a larger populous. Rarely do I just "go for it" without someone listening first.
The one thing I've learned though, is that critiques are merely opinions. I do not change anything that takes the meaning of the song away from me. I'd rather it be a hit just to me if someone thinks I should change something that takes what I wrote it for to the wrong place.
This might be way out there, but with "professional" critiques, you have to think of it like this, "Someone's trash is someone else's treasure." I've had many songs looked over because some screener didn't like it, only to be picked up elsewhere perfect as is. So that's why you should be careful with critiques. Don't change a thing if it doesn't feel right to you!
Well after I have writen some basic layout of the song. I will usually take my acoustic and play it live at places like starbucks or books a million. Just where ever people hang out. This gives me a feel of how it will affect others.
Jeff
singletonjeff.com
It is always good to get feedback from other people who won’t try to spare you but to be honest. But when all is said and done the writer will have to make the last call. Whether to change and improve the song according to the critics or to leave it the way it was. A good song will have a catchy hook to the song that you can walk away humming whether you know the words or not but the melody will keep on lingering in your mind. This may be even for the people who hear the song for the first time. Also songs which are written and delivered from the heart tend to be the best songs. Thanks Derek for keeping us going...
My experience in the industry has taught me that the best feedback you'll ever get is from the artists or songwriters who are where you'd like to be. You'll always get better advice from someone who has some real skins on the wall. They don't have to be famous and are more accessable than you might think. Try to put yourself in their path. Work in recording studios, work for a record company - hey go play for your local church especially those that do contemporary services. You can't imagine the talent and experience some of those good church-going folks have. Ask lots of questions and listen to those answers - even if they're painful. The only caution I would give you is to never take any advice that tells you to be vague about what you're trying to say. Some people think they're helping you by trying to get you to be more relatable. The truth is, mean what you say and say what you mean. Of course, look for the best way to convey your message or story. But don't be vague. People want to hear songs they can relate to. When you're too vague - no one will know what you're trying to say.
Len
Hi Derek,
For feedback (1)I take a tape to a Connecticut Songwriters Association Meeting for the monthly critique session (2) I have submitted songs to NSAI for monthly critique and (3) I post the song on Garageband.com for listeners to comment.
If you want to sell the song to an artist or publisher in general, get industry critiques. Keep in mind certain peoples' qualifications could be cookie-cutter and safe in order to appeal to the masses. If you write songs because you need to express yourself and aspire to your musical heroes, then satisfy yourself only.
The best thing I've done is to whip out the new number at a live show WITHOUT announcing that it's new or original. As for intimate revelations of new material, choose your listeners carefully--other songwriters, if possible. But never in workshops. I HATE songwriter workshops. They're exercizes in navel-gazing, poorly moderated for the most part and usually involve exposing your stuff to people who'll never get beyond a workshop as a venue, and they're gonna take their frustrations out on you.
I am setting up my website now. On that site the question of how people like a song or not is given. Hopefully if there are enough opinions presented I will be able judge the worthiness of a song. Unfortunately, I am not a good judge myself.
It is always good to get feedback from other people who won’t try to spare you but to be honest. But when all is said and done the writer will have to make the last call. Whether to change and improve the song according to the critics or to leave it the way it was. A good song will have a catchy hook to the song that you can walk away humming whether you know the words or not but the melody will keep on lingering in your mind. This may be even for the people who hear the song for the first time. Also songs which are written and delivered from the heart tend to be the best songs. Thanks Derek for keeping us going…
I belong to Taxi and Tunesmith. That's usually the first place I go when I think it's pretty close. Of course I expect a brutal critique; I wanna be a better songwriter right? I'll take bits and pieces of advice and re-write til I think it's better and start all over. SOmetimes I'll scrap the song, sometimes I'll just release it on my own CD! Haha. When you're the artist you can write your own ticket. LOL!
I play it at shows and see if it gets a reaction, but usually I know if it's good or "finished" by giving it a few week's rest then revisiting it. If I like it's good and done. If something bugs me I tweak at it, perform it live again, etc. That process continues along with band feedback until the song is done.
I ask my wife, who is very honest and hard on my stuff.
I send out to my website list, and occasionally get nice comments.
And I constantly beat myself over the head with a loaf of bread because I'm not good enough, so I'll get better.
Hi Derek!
I guess I have my own critque team with a 3 step plan. My kids range in age from 9-14. Step 1: I've learned to put my music to the test by playing a new song in private in another room and if the kids start pouring in then I know I've got something that has caught their attention. They are quite honest and my 14 year old has had some great pointers! Step 2: Then I watch and listen for the next hour to see if any of them are humming, or singing a line from my song. If they do, then I know I have a catchy line. Step 3: The real test comes later at night with my husband. If he's laying in bed trying to get to sleep but can't because he's got one of my chorus' running through his head I know I'm finished. LOL
It really depends on why the song was written. If it contains something that you feel needed to get outside of you, and you feel you've done that successfully, then there is no need for feedback.
If it was written specifically for a commercial,then you will get feedback from everyone, whether you want it or not.
The purpose of most songs falls somewhere in between these two extremes. Your approach should reflect that. If what you're writing needs to reach and be understood by others, then you have to take that into account. You need to walk the line between artistic self-absorption ("I wrote this so it must be great") and crass commercialism ("Let's write about depression - kids like that.")
The main - the only - reason songs should exist is to make people feel or realize something. And that can range from "I feel good" to "That changed my life." Any criticism or feedback that helps you achieve those goals is good. Any that squeezes the life out of a song for the sake of an intellectual musical exercise, is bad.
Songs can be like butterflies; living things that move about, constantly changing direction. Good feedback helps you build a butterfly garden. Bad feedback helps you pin them down.
To me, writing songs has always been a private endeavor. I think it depends on what you are going for because what you want out of a song may not be what someone else wants out of it. Someone else might want to hear a "hit" song while you are more interested in writing a jazz song or some other genre that maybe doesn't follow a hit song formula.
I have found it helpful to learn other artist's songs that I like and seeing if I can expand on what they've done or incorporate some of what I've learned into a new song.
It's really difficult to get honest feedback outside of a workshop setting. Sometimes playing live, people will clap out of politeness whether the song is good or not. As far as internet goes, it's very difficult to get any kind of in-depth analysis of your song - usually you just get one or two lines about how it sounded great or they liked it or didn't like it and that's about it.
I pay VERY close attention to the reviews I receive over at Taxi.com. When I'm in the process of writing/recording a song I'll use the custom critique feature for $20. It's very IN DEPTH and helps you identify ways to improve your song. I'd like to start using it 2-3 times per song (twice while in the writing/recording process and once on the final mix/production). It's incredibly helpful AND it gives you a better chance of having your songs FORWARDED. Taxi rules.
I know I'm on to a good lyric or melody / arrangement when it makes me laugh out loud. It just happens, a phrase comes out or I stumble into a melody line or chord progression, and laughter wells up in me all of a sudden. In the final analysis, what's most important to me is that I like the song so much that I want to play and sing it over and over because it makes me feel something. I figure then that if it makes me feel something, it'll probably make someone else somewhere feel something too. Then once I've taken it as far as I can, I'll run it by my band mates who are very good at offering constructive criticism, feedback, suggestions to make it better. Email is great for this with mp3 files. If their suggestion results in a change to the lyrics or melody, or a new arrangement idea that creates a new feel for the song, then it becomes a co-write.
I am a producer I dont write songs, but I do need feed back on my music.
So my aproach is more on uploading songs, on my website and getting feed back.
The true testing ground is the audience and their reaction. The really good songs I write go over well, even in the "cover hungry bar crowds," or may get the cook to stop what he's doing and come out and listen in the quiet, "un-plugged" venues. It starts with your own sense of what is good or right. Then if I'm lucky, and I have an attentive audience, and "I'm in the flow" so to speak with the song; delivering it the way it should be delivered, the audience will let you know.
I've never been to a writing workshop and through that process with writing critics. I'm sure it has tremendous value. But the Beatles were rejected all over England before they were successful. It was the small Liverpool clubs where they connected first. Aloha Derek
Do I like it-Yes?
What could I add to it (Mid 8/bridge/key change/weird noises/backing vox)?
2 WEEKS LATER-do I like it?
JOB DONE!!!!!
(SOMETIMES IF no-one LIKES IT-IT'S A GROWER
I often record new songs-in-the-works on a little recorder and listen back...then I get ideas...it's good to get good feedback...and listen to great songs...things like pre-choruses are good...the recording process is often half-writing/editing too..
At this point in my career, I rarely go to others specifically for feedback or criticism. I've gotten enough royalties AND praise, criticism, analysis and hostility over the last 30 years (paid and unpaid) to know what to look for when I'm developing the song and when I'm playing the song for people and gauging their reactions.
Nowadays I prefer a more organic approach.
If you are submitting your music to anyone, make sure you identify yourself as copyright owner.
Anyone who wants a writer's money to critique their song is simply in business to take money from songwriters; USUALLY because they are not collecting any royalties on their own songs. BE WARY OF EXPERTS.
I once recorded my own versions of some well-charted songs from the 70s and submitted them for "critique" They came back with all kinds of suggestions for changing the bridge, removing lines of lyrics, changing the music, etc.
A critic is NEVER going to tell you it's ready. If it was, you wouldn't need them and they couldn't make any money.
I suppose everyone should try a song-critique once or twice, but then, LEARN songcraft and critique your own work. Learn how to pay attention to your audience (that is, if you're writing for them.)
If you're not writing for your audience, and you're doing it for yourself, then leave your songs the way they are and don't get upset if they grind coffee or people walk out during your tender ballad about breaking up via txt msg.
If everybody in the band is happy with what we got, we roll with it. Never opposed to hearing opinions, but usually go with our gut feeling on each song.
I don't bother asking anyone what they think. Frankly, I don't care.
I would get nowhere if I lingered in the opinions of others. Which, by the way, are so subjective it aint funny. So, I write stuff for me. Songs that I would listen to even if somebody else wrote them.
However, there are times when I write what I consider experimental garbage. The equivalent of musical flatulence. And shockingly there's always one or two cats who lap it up. That satisfies and confuses me at the same time.
I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter. There will always be an audience for what you put out there.
Unless you want to make serious money for a sustainable period of time. Then you need to worry what others think. Sad, but true.
I test my songs out three ways:
(1) I chart them out, take them to the gig, and have my band play them. Then I get the band's feedback and I talk to audience members (fans) about the new song;
(2) I have a 16 year-old son, who is both a very dedicated musician (in a different genre altogether from me) and the most honest person I have ever known. I play it for him, and I get an honest and critical opinion.
(3)I record the tune in a studio. If I can stand to listen to it, after putting hours of work into recording it and getting it ready for listening, then I know the song is good.
But as a general rule, if I feel strongly about the song and take pride in it, then I know at least someone out there will also hear its message.
I am somewhat of a novice at writing songs. The other day I showed my producer/coach a parody I wrote. She critiqued it without me even asking. When I mentioned that I was planning on putting the words up on my web site, she advised me never to post or publish any song on the internet or otherwise before it has been critiqued and polished.
Getting Feedback On A New Song-
These are usually the steps I take if the opportunities are there. And if they aren't there, you need to be creative and work to make them available.
1) Record a quality demo of the song
(recording always gives you a better idea of flow and energy)
2) Play the demo to people and watch their reaction. (if they don't react the way you imagined, you need to ask questions and go back to the drawing board)
3) Perform the song live to as many people as possible while you are still excited about the song.(remember, when go see live music you get goosebumps and react when something moves you. Other people are no different... they will let you know if you've done it.)
4) Start a FREE blog or comment page online, post the song and let people leave anonymous comments about your track.
Hope this helps!
Best,
Edgel G.
www.myspace.com/sundomingo
My songs are finished before I ask for critiques, but I'm still open to changing them. I got live feedback on one song at a workshop, but I felt people were afraid to say anything negative...or maybe they just really liked the song. I put my new songs on two songwriting sites which are set up for sharing critiques. My priority is to know whether the message and mood of the song came across to the listener, whether they liked it, and what stuck out as a problem for them. I try to listen to the music of each critiquer, so I know whether our tastes are similar or how skilled a songwriter the person is. I look for common responses. If 10 people have a problem with one line, I take it more seriously than if only one person mentions it. I never post a reaction to anyone's critique, and I thank every person who listens and responds. Honest feedback is hard to come by, so I sincerely appreciate the responses I get. I have some fans who like everything I write, but I know they would not tell me about the stuff they don't like, so I take it as a little positive feedback and don't give it too much weight. I don't find it helpful when someone critiques my song by completely rewriting it, or offering too many suggestions for how to fix it. I prefer they tell me what they object to, and let me find a solution from my own "voice." I appreciate people who give me a second round of feedback, so I know if the objection they raised got fixed for them or not. Knowing how the song is received is so valuable, and I am so blessed to have people who are willing to give me honest feedback, without being rude.
Ultimately it's how I feel about it that counts. But I do try it out at a local, supportive open mic and watch the audience reaction. Somehow I usually know beforehand though how it will be received.
I play the work for as many people as I can. It isn't usually their comments that advise me, it is what I hear them hearing. I have to be with them to hear the music, and something happens where I hear the music: an entirely new way - through their ears. This helps me get an objective handle, and then i start making the changes. Then i bring it back to these people and see their reactions. I continue to tweak until I hear them hearing it the way I hear it.
For me the feedback comes over time...playing it for bandmates and seeing which ones the love to play. I think when other people like to play it, it means they can feel the music, which an audience will pick up on. Though I love words, and love lyrics, that's really the second thing people pick up on if they ever do...the mood and rhythm have to come first. When other people brings songs to rehearsal, I know I love the song when I start closing my eyes when I play!
When I write a new song naturally I love it and along with the emotional rush I never really know if it stikes a nerve with others.
The only way I figure is how many hits it gets on www.myspace.com/johnphelpsband
I'd love to be in touch with a panel of strangers to critique my songs when they are new and still being tweeked.
I have a few regular gigs for groups that seem to enjoy, recieve and understand my tunes more than any others. So, many times I will present new songs to them before I perform them anywhere else. I can tell by their response and energy if it connects or not. If it does, I have a keeper.
Derek,
A songwriter I have a great deal of respect for once told me that a good songwriter spends most of his time rewriting. So I spend a great deal of time rewriting and editing my songs. I do a little bit of everything you mentioned because all have their advantages and their drawbacks, I have a group of professional songwriters, musicians and fans alike that critique my music. I also let songs "cook" a while before performing it in live shows. I like to see if the song has stood the test of time and I am able to critique my own music a little more objectively. One of the worst things a songwriter can do is put a song out before its finished.
I live in Columbus, Ohio today I am in Columbus, Georgia for a Brian White (SEASAC song of the year-2007 and many more)Pete Salis NSAI regional workshop (actually February 28th tomorrow).
I don't find friends too helpful for critiques, most of them don't want to hurt your feelings.
I see it as continuous improvement.
1. I belong to all three songwriting groups in Central Ohio. They are almost never kind and sometimes they come up with good ideas. (5 meetings a month). I have a song lyric being critiqued tonight even though I am 700 miles away--I had a friend take it in for me.
2. I use a paid advisor often. www.rickberesford.com (Teaches at Belmont College in Nashville and has several cuts). I have also used Pat and Pete Luboff on occasion.
3. I keep informed about who is looking for what (I subscribe to RowFax) so I don't waste too much time with my political angst songs http://taxtheworld.com
4. I put a lot of stuff up for review on SongRamp.com but they are mostly a polite cyber-clatch type thing. I think my stuff is pretty good but I have never had a criticism from anyone at SongRamp. But it is a great place for $33 a year to store stuff have a private listening room you can send a link to a plugger or A&R guy. Not everything I do is on SongRamp.com
5. I travel 402 miles to Nashville almost once a month and build relationships; go to publisher pitches at NSAI, etc. I will probably join TNSAI this year too, they meet at Belmont College.
6. Some stuff I just do for fun like "Bail Out Blues" but for serious stuff like my sooon to be posted rewrite (March 15th) of "Credit Card Junkie" I listen to the market and try to make sure it is relative to the listener. I also play the financial stuff at my speaking engagements (I am author of Good Debt, Bad Debt (Penguin, 2005).Other serious songs "I Like Me Best When I'm Next to You" and "West Virginia Skies" have a decent chance of getting cut. West Virginia Skies was written by me for two orphans. We want to use it as part of a college fund raiser for the kids.
http://myspace.com/hansondemo
7. Read, read, read. Write, write, write. I learned a ton from Steve Seskin at a two day workshop in Nashville (January). Sesking encouraged me to rewrite 50 percent of Credit Card Junkie.
8. Here is Seskin's advice on self-song critique: Every line should be as fun as the last line to sing. The song has to be appealing to the singer too. He looked at Credit Card Junkie and said these are great lines, but these, these, and these are not. Those are the ones I rewrote. He also didn't like something in the chorus and we are changing that too. He was brutally honest and I appreciated that.
9. I use the NSAI critique service too.
10. I am getting some indie airplay on a song now and the feed back from the actual public is valuable.
11. I make sure to have .wav files of the music only tracks so I can go back in the studio and have the vocalist redo something without paying for a new session. Just this week I had to go in and snip the word "yuppie" out of a song--several critiquers? thought the singer was saying "yucky." Saying yuppie wasn't helping the song so we just sniped it and remixed the edited lead vocal with minimal effort.
If you have not planned for rewrites and fixes after you operate the song for a month or two, you probably won't want to fix it and will start to compromise and tell yourself it's OK the way it is. This starts a vicious cycle, of frustration. If you can't take constructive critique and make changes you probably are not a songwriter serious about getting cuts and competing with the big boys (and girls).
Jon Hanson
www.gooddebt.com
www.myspace.com/hansondemo
JonHanson (on songramp.com
I play new songs for my wife and my 17 year old son, who also writes music. I would love a forum where I could get honest feedback about what works and what doesn't. I've gone to Songpull, but each person there is mainly interested in playing and leaving, not really interested in helping hone each other's work. I've entered songwriting contests; the judges have formulaic criteria (must be verse, verse, chorus, verse, chorus; is there a hook?) and don't have a sense of a song's aesthetic. If the song doesn't elicit some emotional response, it's just pap.
At the end of the day you can play your song for a few trusted friends and their opinions but what matters most is if deep down it's a song you want to play again and again and you know in your heart it's good. Very few pass this test.
I just tell people about it- hey listen to this- what did you like best about it? Sometimes the questions we ask can already be set up for a negative response- If someone were having a bad day & listened to your song in passing, or preoccupied as so many of us are today, & you asked "How did you like my song? They might say- it was ok- or fine just to get you to shut up without really having listened to it.
I think it is more valuable to ask those who love music & are connected to other bands to listen & offer feedback because they will really pay attention to the music. I'd rather have 7 people who really KNOW music listening & offering constructive criticism that blast 100 people that may not pay attention. The 7 will usually have a KNOWHOW & influence to saturate the market with the song if it is worthy of their professional time & reputation.
I've been writing for a long time and now when I get something new that I get a strong vibe from, I try to record it quickly (in a studio) and get a good arrangement down. I may add it to my set list at a performance if I really like it...or send it out for local airplay.
What do you do for feedback on a new song you’re writing?
Well the best songs I write and record are the songs that I get very much excited about them from begining.
Do you play it for a few friends, looking for praise?
I have stopped this after few albums in the past. No need for more ego speak.
Do you play it for a few friends, looking for criticism? (Really asking, “What don’t you like about it?”)
Do you upload it to your site, and email everyone you know, asking what they think?
I put my albums online for sale.
The best songs and albums are always those that people buy more
Kind of strange but it's true.
Do you send it to a company for paid critique?
Nope.
Used to send a lot of songs for companies in Israel in the past.
This made me less artistic in many ways.
But got some very good critiques from well established musicians.
Up to the pick level when you can say to yourself - "enough of this shit I can figure it out myself".
Do you have a songwriting teacher or mentor?
Nope.
When you get feedback, are you looking to change and improve your song?
I wrote too many songs so far.
I look for my own good feeling about the song.
And someone to buy it.
I ask music colleagues and my wife. She's a musician that tells the truth. I'll then try to improve or start from scratch.
My Mentors where CSN&Y,Jazz, Latin and old blues. I've learned to trust my own ears and if "I" like it ,thats all that counts. I have to live with it. Dallas W.Taylor
I've wrestled with this question for quite some time (10 years). And the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that critiques and/or feedbacks are, at best, arbitrary; like being the American Idol winner and, yet, it's the runner up that gets the record deal.
And, what about - for example - in the case of The Beatles' song Mr. Walrus, does anyone really believe that Lennon and McCartney should have included "coo, coo, c'choo", and if so, why? And, why not, "ta da, di dah", instead? Had they asked for a critique - from whom?
I would hazard a guess that what songwriters are really trying to do is ask "permission" if their songs ought to be sung! One often forgets that Lennon and McCartney did not write songs the audience liked; they wrote songs they liked. And we just happened to agree that we liked them too.
There's even an organization that purports to "help" artists reach the next level - all they ask is that you to pay them a fee to listen, and to critique, your song. Somebody's making a bloody lot of money from insecure songwriters. All I can tell is that the artist is helping THEM reach their next level - higher salaries, I presume. And had they been good at songwriting, WHY are they sitting behind a desk critiquing others - instead of joining the rest of us blokes who pay to have our songs critiqued, hmmm?
Now, thankfully, most people give free critiques as consumers - if they like it, they buy it. If not, they don't. So, write the song, burn a demo of the song, sing the song, and see if anyone wants to buy the song! Simple enough - or is THAT too complicated?
If i like the song well enough i will play it at my next gig and ask my followers for their attention to the song,and then ask how they like it.I
Not rocket-science, but we are fortunate to have a 15 year old daughter who is on a Music scholarship at her school. She is so GOOD at putting what I would put as criticism and be too heavy with phrases like
" [x] puts counter points on their pointer points, and forgets to keep going back to the melody".
I mean it shows an understanding of the way music is or can be put together, and is constructive as well as descriptive.
If i like the song well enough, i will play it at my next gig and ask my followers to listen attentively and give me their honest oppinion.Most of the time i can tell by their immediate response if its good or not...Carl
Early on, I went to some writing workshops. I found them good for gaining confidence in what I was doing, & sometimes humbling for what other folks were producing. But they're a sterile, 'safe' environment. The best feedback you get is from performing live. Whether people say anything or not you'll get an idea of how a song went over.
My routine with a new piece is to play it to death at home until I like it & I'm familiar with it. Then go present it somewhere. I make a point of announcing it's "the first time out for this one" - that can sometimes induce a comment. Or a frosty silence.
I am on DMusic.com exclusively for feedback. It is just about the oldest music site, since 1998. Everybody is very friendly and supportive and in good spirits. Also, songwriter101.com is a good resource for songwriters.
I'll bring a new song into rehearsal and we usually learn it that way, then we tear it apart and maybe add or subtract intros, solos and endings or add a bar here or there or a rest and then we nail it down and learn it that way . Once we know it and like it, we'll play it without any mention of who wrote it just to see what happens and when there is a great reaction we know it's ready to be recorded and we move on to the next piece or just drink some beer and jam !
What do I do ....?
Nothing. Bottom line- your song is you. All you will get by sending it out there for " feedback " is opinion ranging from " lousy to Ilove it " .
When it comes down to it the only person that must be happy with your song ....is YOU.
It never occurred to me to ask for feedback when I'm writing a song. That is sort of like asking someone if it's ok for me to think what I'm thinking, or if it's ok to say what's on my mind.
I generally keep it within the band. I write the music, so I'll email it to them and get their thoughts. I factor in their personal tastes vs what I was looking for out of the song. I know what they like, so I know how to interpret their opinion. Getting outside criticism is useless to me because that is all personal preference (unless you are talking about the quality of a mix or something). We post finished songs on Garageband.com and get reviews out of curiousity. One review says they love the vocals, the next says they hate them. One says they love the long drawn out intro, the next says the intro is too long. When you know nothing about your reviewer, that provides no value (for mod purposes anyway)
Generally, I trust my own opinion, because at the end of the day, I need to be happy with the song.
i usually just play the tune for other musicians who i work with. my wife is an opera singer and i respect her suggestions but i will always go with my musical instinct. no matter what.
I will usually ask someone in the family for feedback and ideas. Mostly I just slap a few tracks together and listen to it repeatedly. New ideas or changes occur after hearing it a hundred times or so.
At this moment, my mom and daughter are the only ones qualified to hear WIP early roughs since they know my catalogue complete and can weigh in best with that wide grasp of my intent. They also don't make any effort to genre-define my songs - if you know my music, you'll understand that point...
When songs are ready to go into mixdown, I'll get close friends to listen but only a few opinions per track -
- the biggest danger (dilution) is also the biggest potential blessing (influence) - overall, feedback will enhance your songs. But be ready to 'not' use someone's feedback too, and then live with that choice when it's mastered, because you'll hear all those suggestion voices in your head after it's too costly to re-mix and re-press...
I've personally never found a need for help to write or finish a song, ideas come pretty fast to me, too fast for me to catch all of them actually. Still, I look for co-writers in Citadel because I like the shared experience better than the one-person-does-all approach - but either way - writing is not a choice for me, it is what comes out whenever I'm near an instrument...pen pick paint photo pc...
Truth is, I most often let the silence that comes immediately after the part already written tell my ears what should come next - cliff jumping - my best hint toward what sound to make is the absence of sound and imagining what should fill it.
Thanks Derek, made me stop what I was doing and ponder again - when will I learn to spot your sneaky edification trickery in advance?
Love it!
Rejyna
Who could you ask to give a critique? Family? They'd tell you you're great no matter how crappy you are. Just check out the A.I. losers. Friends? Same thing, they wouldn't want to hurt your feelings if they thought your song was lacking. It must be anonymous or you won't get real feedback. Even then, it's simply an opinion. If you want REAL help improving a song, find your fave band on your same success level. A band who's songs you love and collaborate with the writer. Music is all opinion. Now if you want to sell a million records then something has to appeal to a lot of people but even then your song could suck. Think about some hits you've heard that just suck ass. You know what I mean.
Be true to yourself and write honestly and love your own songs and sooner or later "they" will see the light!
When I have finished a tune, I start to doubt if it's really finished or if I need to work more on it. I continue to work on it - only to find out that it was finished... I upload it to soundclick.com where I store all my tunes. I hope enough listeners will discover it and play it enough to make it climb in the charts. I seldom send out news letters, and I don't have enough fans to see any difference. Sometimes the tune will be discovered by listeners later. I hate promotion and don't like to invite others to listen to my music. This is probably why I haven't reached a bigger audience with my tunes. ...Or maybe my tunes SHOULD have been improved in the first place? ;o)
Nice question, Derek. From some of the answers I read I understand, that many are dependent on judgement "from outside". Sometimes songs are 'improved' to an extent where they don't sound nearly as good anymore as they did when the creator (writer, musician) thought it is perfect for him/her. I rather judge by myself, because if I do like it so much that my toes start ot tingle I do not need anybody else to tell me if he/she likes it or not. It is my energy of positive thought that made the song, and it is my positive delighted energy that brings it to those people who like it. If you show/play something to three different people you get - mostly - three different opinions. And that - most of the time - leads you astray.
First, I live with it and do my changes, make sure it says what I want it to. Second, we rehearse it and embellish it and if I can't sell the song to my guys we drop it into the "scavenge it pile". Next we add it to our 1st set every night- if people don't react well,depending on the tone of the song (slow -Fast, do they dance, sit there in amazement, or applaud), after a few tries we can it ! Workshops never work well they are full of politics and petty jealousys and partly the reasons we have so much garbage out there today, just my little ol' opinion. oh by the way the ones that fail I sell to American Idol, After all a pretty face can sell anything, just kidding Folks !!
We do a scratch recording of our music. From there we listen back to it as a group. Attempt to completely seperate ourselves from the song and create a list of our own critisism. Then we go back and adjust the song. From there we usually ask our friends what they think, at least the ones that will give us an honest opinion. Before we professionally record we give the producer all the songs we have on disc, ask him for suggestions on how to make them better and then choose which songs we want to continue with. I've learned it's ok to scratch songs. Not everyone is a hit.
Derek,
I'm always grateful for the questions you periodically make public, but I almost never find myself with much to contribute to the discussion. I just follow with interest.
This question is--these questions are--different, and I'm glad you asked because it is absolutely essential that songwriters learn to find honest, vigorous feedback on their works in progress. At least, it is absolutely essential to any writer hoping to do great work.
Here are my answers, which I hope at least a few other people will find relevant.
-Do you play it for a few friends, looking for praise?
Never. I do like hearing good things about my finished work, but not my works-in-progress. If I consider a work unfinished, it is because I feel there are parts left to improve. Praise alone does not make that feeling go away--it just gives me a reason not to do work that, when I'm being honest, I know needs doing.
-Do you play it for a few friends, looking for criticism? (Really asking, “What don’t you like about it?”)
Yes. But only for two friends in particular. These two friends are also songwriters, and they do better work than any other songwriters I've ever met. Better, in fact, than most of the songwriters on my iPod. Because I know and respect their work so much, these friends have two very important powers.
(1) When their are problems I'm aware of, I trust their solutions for fixing them.
(2) When there are problems I'm NOT aware of--for example, if I think the song is finished--I trust them when they say I'm wrong.
There's one principle at work here: If good enough for me, it's not necessarily good enough for them; if it's good enough for them, it's not necessarily good enough for me.
No song isn't done until all three of us are satisfied, or at least until I'm satisfied, and have considered my friends' points as honestly and openly as I can.
- Do you upload it to your site, and email everyone you know, asking what they think?
I tried this once. I posted a work in progress--just lyrics--to my band's blog, and asked for feedback in the comments. Here's the think to that post:
http://www.newneighbors.info/blog/?p=100
and to the post from a few days later, which contained a recording. (People were not comfortable judging just the lyrics.)
http://www.newneighbors.info/blog/?p=106
Mixed results. Some of the commentary seemed useful, other commentary was not. But the important lesson, I think, is that no one suggested anything my two friends didn't catch privately. And one listener explicitly mentioned that seeing this part of the process made him/her uncomfortable.
Still, this is all useful documentation if you're curious about how much the overall character of a song can change, just by transposing it, changing a verse or two, and approaching the vocal differently.
The final recording is here:
http://www.newneighbors.info/blog/?p=145
Really finishing the song took from November 2008 to February 2009!!
- Do you send it to a company for paid critique?
I do not. And I will not, unless you can show me a company whose employees are themselves making better songs than my two songwriting friends.
- Do you have a songwriting teacher or mentor?
Many! David Byrne, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Shostakovich, The Understudy, Dylan, and Mason Jennings are the writers I listen to most. But I can learn from anyone in any style who knows how to make honest work.
- When you get feedback, are you looking to change and improve your song?
Oh yes! I'm looking not just to change the song, but to change myself as a songwriter. I look at every song as a chance to (a) write the best song I've ever written, and (b) learn more about songwriting, so that I can do even better work next time. Obviously not every song I write ends up better than the songs that came before it, but I think I *do* become a better writer with each effort.
And that's the really fun part; that's why I keep making stuff, why I HAVE to keep making stuff. How much can I grow?
That's all I have time to write just now--I'm off to see David Byrne at Radio City!!!
See you soon,
Chris Frank
We are lovers so we have to be careful
Creating a song together can have its emotional lows and highs. But writing partnerships can be very productive, as is proven by history (Lennon & McCartney, Jagger & Richards, David & Bacharach etc). There seems to be something about the dynamic between two people that works very well when it comes to songwriting. Perhaps it is because there are two main elements in writing a song, namely the melody and the lyrics, unlike, say, a poem. This is why I would go as far as to say that many singer/songwriters are poets first and musicians second. In our writing relationship, I tend to come up with some lyrics and then present them to VIOLETTA and we work from there but it can work the other way round too. Because I write books as well, I tend to have lots of scribbled song lines hanging around. For VIOLETTA they seem to arrive in dreams. I never remember my dreams
A pen and paper by the bed is important. For the last album Unconditional Love, we were very fortunate to have a third partner in the mix, the very talented Catalan Jazz pianist Jaume Vilaseca and he arranged and contributed to the melodies and, when finished, he wrote out all the sheet music. Sometimes this resulted in the finished song being credited partly to him as well. It can be a collaborative art and very productive for that. However, we don't go 'public' with the songs until they have reached an advanced stage, either in performance or in the studio. The reason is, from bitter experience, having a wide range of input at an early stage can lead to so many conflicting views, suggestions, and uninformed comment that it can kill both the song and your enthusiasm dead. Keep it tight in a working relationship and craft it. If your partner is also your lover, I have no advice for you except think long and hard before you write a love song
Hi Derek,
hope you are fine!
My stuff is rather prog, or neo-classical, so not everyone would necessary like it. I have tried the following approach with my solo album: once it was mastered, I have made myself app. 50 copies of it - all inclusive cover, and have distributed them among my friends, students, fellow musos, have sent a couple to the studio engineers I have worked with, and have asked all these guys to give me feedback. Finally, I had about two pages of comments on each song! After it, I have made the improvements and the CD was remastered and only then published. This was a good decision - it is better to hear the critique from the friends, as to read it in reviews later!
Regards,
Andrew
I am pretty much a "solo" act when it comes to new tunes.Ultimately I have to like the song itself before whether I take in consideration the opinion of others.Otherwise there's the inevitable danger of succumbing to public pressure.I think if you write for yourself first that in the end it provide the most effectual way to keep ur music real.
Hi Derek, I play the song for my friend Tracy. If she starts rolling her eyes around, I know she hates the song but if she yells out "Ya Right On", I know it's good.
John Janes
I think too much focus is on getting feedback AFTER a song is written (what to change, take out, etc.), and not enough on what goes INTO the song in the first place (ie. what types of lyric words tend to have more impact, the emotional effects of certain chords, etc.)
While a song is definitely a work of art, unique and a product of someone's inspiration and creativity, there are usually certain fundamental things that a writer needs to know in order to create something that will connect with listeners. We wouldn't try to build an airplane without a certain amount of instruction and guidance, and rely only on feedback to see if it works. A song that "works" is no less impactful. But I suppose the consequences of experiencing a poorly "built" song (say, falling asleep) are less dire than experiencing a poorly built airplane (um, maybe death).
So I say: put more attention into what goes INTO the song in the first place, and then, of course solicit feedback later. There are a number of good books available on both lyric writing & music composition but, unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be as many classes taught in this vein. I was once fortunate enough to attend a class where the teacher did teach this way. (I have also experienced the feedback method as well.)
Well ... actually I present all songs to my wife and she is really a hard critic. She says just "I like it" or "I not like it" or something more specific and then I have to look. Sometimes I play a special part for her and let her decide between two different versions, when I am not shure, what is better. So when she is smiling it's a good work.
Second step will be to present the finished work to close friends to hear more and more feedback. I analyse the given feedbacks looking for equal advices and do last adjustments.
Kind regards, Dirk
Derek, I found the type of songwriting workshop you mention to be the best way to get worthwhile feedback. I used to attend some where both experienced and new writers gave feedback on everyone's songs, and everyone's opinion was considered valid. At a gig, people applaud for all kinds of reasons, and your friends and family will always tell you they like your stuff (except for my brutally honest wife!) There's nothing wrong with playing your songs for people in any setting, but, in general, I think a focused and sincere group of people in a songwriting workshop is a great way to get feedback that will help you grow as a writer. Even if I disagreed with things people said about my songs, I still came away from pumped up and ready to write, and I learned a lot about myself by observing how other people react when their songs are analyzed.
All these comments are true. I could agree and disagree with all of them. Songwriting varies (for better or worse) with experience, and age. I make songs when i have too much to say. The songs i made public i wrote after giving myself too much to teach then simplifying it so that even a child could feel or understand it. The songs i keep private come and go like clouds. I dream them or sing them - then later i might hear someone else do the same or similar thing - or notice a giant hole where nobody is singing it. Freeform is the art, what we capture is only a record of the moment or a shared reconstruction of it. In mainstream - construction and formula is everything - in real life, a song can keep you alive - other times it just gives back to a crowd what they are giving to you.. but in the universe of imagination - it is possible that songs are a universally shared experience at the moment of their creation, which explains why different writers occasionally write the same song. Christy Moore once sang "you lay one to rest - another song is born".. I made my songs public so i could give birth to new ones, private or public. Writing songs is like scetching - recording them is like producing a layered piece of finished art - or like catching a cloud.
I don't really look for feedback, but sometimes it happens spontaneously. Since I do two different things: write songs with lyrics and write instrumental "songs" for my 10-piece band, there are several ways I can get feedback. With the band, the band members themselves are my best source of feedback, and I'm happy to listen to what they have to say -- up to a point. That point is when they stop making suggestions about my piece and start trying to turn it into their piece.
With the songs that have lyrics, I often send them to a singer I've been writing for over the years, to see if she wants to sing/record them or not. If she doesn't like something, I usually just let it go. I'm not into altering my songs, unless it's something minor.
I see song and music writing as an individual matter, and I really never try to "shape" my music to suit what I think an audience would like. I just let it flow through me with the thought that someone out there will enjoy it!
As crazy as this may sound, I don't ask for feedback from anyone. I don't share or discuss WIPs ( works in progress). I consider other people's opinions distracting and counter productive. My muse is very adamant about this. I trust my musicality and the voices in my head. ;-)
I don't bring a tune to my band until I am confident it is ready for "prime time". So far this has worked well for me. I am not saying every tune I've ever written is a masterpiece. I have a few "problem children" but even in their "imperfection" there is something appealing.
I realise creative styles are different. I say don't get hung up on what other people think. Let them write their own music and leave you to writing your own.
Songs come in on their own volition for me, and someone else's energy or situation calls them forward. If they don't have a live connection that gets stimulated by someone wanting to hear, they can stay dormant for years. I know my understanding of songwriting is tiny, compared with how potent I could be if I had feedback ongoing. I'll be writing a songwriting blog for the School for Wonder soon.
I woke up with a song in my head this morning that I wrote in 1993, and never sang again. Someone somewhere was calling it up in me, and that internal singing is just as powerful as moments I've had on stage.
It's a connection that gets juiced by the quiet bow, the stepping aside to let the sacred thing happen.
When I have composed a new instrumental I do the following: Play it for my wife; play it at open mic performances or jam sessions. I never ask for feedback because most people will feel put on the spot. The most important criteria is that I like the composition. If I do I will then record it and continue listening to it for self evaluation. After I have recorded enough for a CD I will put together a new CD issue it on CD baby, sell it at performances, and put it out on electronic download sites. Audience reaction sometimes helps me evaluate.
i dont bounce ideas off of anybody when i write a song...i make the song for me first and foremost...if people like it GREAT...and if people don't like it GREAT as well...i'm making art that is personal to me and not music or songs for commercials or to make money...I doubot Picasso ever bounced a painting idea off of his cohorts..."Do you think that ear is in the right place"?
As a song writer there a number of things I consider as far as feed back to my songs. First of all I don’t let the opinion of critics dictate everything I do, however I do listen. They say opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, but often they stink. My ideas for songs come from lots of different sources. Some songs that I have recorded I am surprised at who responds to them.
Sometimes I wake up with an idea which might have a poetic line or two. Other times I might be tinkering with a few notes or chord combinations which I’ll record just to think on for awhile. I often approach my music like I have painting or sculpting, merely as something fun to do. If someone likes it great, if not, no big deal. I can still hang it on my wall. Often these paintings find a buyer at some unsuspecting time.
Teaching guitar often gives me some clues as to what might work. If I have a new student, I will play something for him. If he begins to tap his foot, maybe I have hit on something. If he comes back the next week and he is playing something memorable that I have shown him, then we work with it. It he hears something on one of my cds that he likes we work on it.
Much of my music has been gospel related though not necessarily church music. Some are offended that I occasionally play at fancy wineries. Well, Jesus turned water into wine. If I would have let church people dictate my songs I would have quit playing years ago. I have never wanted to be like every other clone on the radio. One song I wrote was critical of Islam, and I got a rather nasty review from some folks in UK. The reviewer was obviously threatened by the Muslim masses in his neighborhood. Other people found the song to be rather humorous. It is fun to find lyrics that might have a double meaning, that way it can speak to people in many different ways depending on their journey through life. Life experience tends to broaden ones audience and subject content. I often write tunes that I have used for sound on a video project, therefore it has to present a certain mood that matches the video message. One must appeal to our audience. The question then is, who is my audience. We all work for someone.
Dale Brown
HELLO EVERY ONE ..I'M LUKO ADJAFFI
MY MUSICAL INSPIRATIONS IS THE EVERY DAY EXPERIENCE ...FROM GOD
CREATION POEPLE ANIMALS THE IDEA
OF THE PLANET EARTH ...SPIRITUALITY
NOT CHURCH ..I MEAN I'M FINDING A
SONG MOST OF THE TIME COME FROM A
FAR AWAY PLACE ...WHEN IT TRANFER TO ...IT'S DONE .....SOME TIMES ITS , UNFINISH UNTIL SOME ONE ELSE FEEL IT AND PLAY IT ..THIS IS MY VIEW BROTHER DEREK .S
LUKO ADJAFFI
I play it for an audience as soon as possible. Not to see how *they* like it, but rather to see how *I* feel about playing it for them.
I'm with Mr. Anonymous on this one, Derek. Pandering to other people is a sure fire way to make something that means exactly nothing to nobody (including yourself.)
I participate in this thing called "Songpull" based off the old guitar pulls Johnny Cash used to have, where the Carter family, Dylan, and others would gather to share songs they are working on.
There isn't much critiquing that goes on, because the goal is just to complete song ideas.
I've found that having to perform a song in front of people really makes me realize the weaknesses in it.
I'm embarrassed by a lyric, or a section is too long, or I realize that a chorus just sucks when I get to it. That's one way I judge whether one of my songs is going in the right direction or not.
Here's an example:
http://www.songpull.com/performance/view_video/991
Time is an excellent critic. Good songs continue to sound good as the months roll on.
Patience is also important. Usually, I know when a song has a line or part that needs changing. But I may not know how to do that for a long time. Sometimes I've had to wait 3-5 years, but the wait has always been worth it. And I just seem to know when it's done.
I usually don't collaborate on songs or present drafts for review to anyone. That having been said, I spend quite a bit of time working on the finer details of a song's lyrics and melody line until I believe it is ready for public. I used to be a lecturer in Professional Writing at the University of Canberra, and one of the points I liked to impress upon my students was that all writing, including songwriting, must fully engage the reader/listener (willing suspension of disbelief) and must never give them pause to become disengaged from the writing because they found something wrong, or even just a little "off". Therefore, when I draft a song I try to listen for those "disengaging" moments so that I might eliminate them. That includes lazy use of cliches and corny phrases.
Once I am satisfied with a song I will put it into a few shows to gauge the audience reaction. At the first outing I usually tell the audience that they will be the first people, aside from my dog, to hear the song. I never ask for feedback or their thoughts, although sometimes I receive them anyway. After a few outings I can gauge a pattern of response to the song and determine where it stands on my "audience meter". That doesn't mean I will toss out songs that rate lowly, it just means that I don't include them in shorter "power" shows where I only have time for a few songs before I am off stage.
I could go on about songwriting for hours, especially lyrics. As the songs says, "don't start me to talkin' or I'll tell you everything I know". Hope this helps.
Cheers
Ernie
The easiest way to find out what people think about a new song is by asking people who dont know you. Alway make sure you ask a couple cause we all dont hear the same thing.
I used to pay a song critique person who has gotten me many single song contracts but now I just write from my heart and what feels right for me.
Typically if I am releasing a CD I will get it evaluated by a professional which I did on my debut CD for half of it. I have been critiqued so much over a 16 year period and paying for this service that now it is time to rely on my instinct and my friends who write songs who do it for free. Its high time I make my money back on what I like to sing not what others feel is a hit. It has been a great recipe so far.
Blessings all and don't take yourself too seriously,
Kim Yarson
I've gotten a lot of feedback from NSAI and Minnesota Songwriters.
I always needed convincing that something isn't working. Sometimes that was easy, sometimes not.
Then trying to record everything and give it to different people and ask their opinions.
I have an audience at church that used to be valuable but, now they seem to be more like family that loves everything I do.
You've ALWAYS got to consider the source. If someone tells me, "I like DOPED UP STRIPPER." I say that's great. I know it's not the best song I've written but, it appeals to some. I don't have to re-write it to make it more appealing cause the folks it appeals to love it. Always a consideration.
natural for me to feel it.
yes would mak friends listen,
any one to listen.i'll upload to my
site gave it to DJ i'll jst stood
there see how the people reacted ..honesty if my little son dance to it
that tell me a lots..
nice one
bro..
peace.
Hello Derek,
I use two main methods....
First, I e-mail a demo version of the song to some trusted musical friends around the country and ask for their feedback without giving them *any* preconceived ideas about the song. I want them to be free of any expectations before hearing and commenting on my latest creation.
Second - and this works pretty well for me - I leave song ideas archived in a rough format for months without listening to them. When I hear them for the 'first' time again I have a curiously-detached reaction to them which is very helpful and pretty unbiased. It helps that I'm always filling the pipeline with new ideas so I can pretty easily leave songs alone for a while before returning to them for a fairly impartial review. The songs that keep striking me in a positive way over time are the ones I nurture and grow.
Cheers,
Jason
I generally hold a melody or hook in my mind for a day, then record it into my phone, then if i listen back to it and still like it I figure out other parts of it or options and play them for my wife...if she's into it then I know I cant let it die and generally finish the song. By the time its played in front of people its long since crystalized and finished.
HiDerek: I write for the Lord. Whatever He gives me is what I write down. Others feedback is really of no significance. Of course, I want other folks to like it and enjoy it, but I trust that they will. He gives me the words and the melody straight from the throne room of heaven. 25 songs in four months!! It doesn't get any better than this! He knows what others need, and what they would like to hear. Thanks, joe
The first person that usually hears my new songs or song ideas is my wife. She's also a musician and a songwriter and is not shy about letting me know what she thinks. My songs are usually pretty well finished before I let anyone hear them. Besides my own band I'm part of a group of singer/songwriters that go out and perform under the name of Urban Caravan. That's often the first place I'll debut a new song to hear what the other songwriters say. And I get feedback from the audience. You can tell right away how an audience feels about a song. Finally, if I get a shiver or two while I'm performing a new song than I know it's good. At least I think it's good and that's probably the most important thing in the end.
Hi Derek
I'm a music teacher, musician, producer, publisher, songwriter..so I have lots of avenues for "testing" new songs. As a rule, I write specific songs for licensing agents or projects that I recreate the songs at live shows for. I get feedback from our fans,the band, and others in the industry that I network with. I teach songwriting along with instruments so the workshops are good "feedback" grounds.
John
crystal image
Although I believe musical/songwriting collaborations can be very productive, there is a major problem when too many people are involved. In my experience, songs written "by a committee" are usually cliche-ridden and formulaic because the whole process pushes the participants into compromises to appease each of the participants.
My girlfriend is a harsh critic! The good news is that I do not need to solicit her advice, she gives it freely. She also gages the reaction of the live crowds so she can tell me, "You lost them during that middle part..."
I get most of my feedback from live audiences. The audiences in Northern California are kind but you can still judge by their enthusiasm.
I once asked a crowd why they had stopped dancing and I heard "Too slow!" from the back of the room.
-Chadwick
I think many songwriters are plain scared of feedback (ie. critical, constructive feedback) and won't show anyone their work until it's finished. I certainly used to fit in this category!
I suppose to a degree the songs are 'our children' and we thus treat them a little protectively. I think The Seekers' "Look What They've Done To My Song, Ma" spells out the dilemma pretty clearly.
These days I'm a lot clearer as to what purpose I write a song, and so get my feedback in different ways. For example, if it's a commissioned work or collaboration I feel far less precious about the music and am very open to feedback during the process, often actively chasing it down. I do enjoy this as it's usually a chance to stretch my own musicality.
On the other side, if I'm aware I'm writing the song for personal reasons then no-one hears it until it's complete.
In practice, I'm usually surprised which songs of mine people like, reminding me that sometimes my own favourites aren't the same as my listeners.
I've leanered in my years of song writing to not worry what others think of the songs that I write. If I'm writing a song coming from my heart, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. For as we songs writers know, anything can happen with any kind of song that is written. Who's to say what's good and what's not?!!!! If you like what you write, that's all you need.
I don't ask anyone what they think. I write it,record and give it the "Fogerty" car test..if it's sounds good on a crappy car speaker,it's good. That's what John Fogerty did with much of his stuff.
In my opinion a good songwriter can write to any blank piece of music presented to them. The tone of the music itself sets the inspiration for the topic or theme of the song. For example if someone handed me “Shinny Happy People” without a vocal melody attached to it, assuming I never heard the song before I don’t think I would write a dark song against the musical canvass. I‘ve heard of people writing lyrics first, then the music. Well I’ve never done it like that in my 20 years of composing. Here’s how I compose a song. I was flattered to find out this is exactly the formula Paul McCartney and John Lennon used for many years:
My experience lies in composing hard rock, rock, mainstream pop, and country music.
* Write the basic musical skeleton on a guitar usually 3 or 4 different connecting parts or progressions that mix things up and compliment each other.
* Begin the “la la la” stage of plugging in a melodic line that goes with the music and has a catchy rhythm all it’s own. A great vocal melody lines can stand on it’s own two feet without any music at all.
* Write the chorus first to establish a musical foundation, then build upon it.
* Begin writing versus that lead up to the meaning of the chorus. These parts can be ambiguous in meaning compared to the chorus which must be direct and to the point.
Below are characteristics that make up a really good piece of music.
* Makes a real and genuine connection with a listener emotionally.
* Short and sweet experience.
* Has several parts that mix things up and maintains the focus of the listener.
* Leaves a strong and lasting impression with a listener.
* The emotions heard in the vocal delivery is the most important selling point of the piece of music.
M.S Rhodes a/k/a Cyrus
www.7at.net
I haven't had time to read all comments here there are so many, but we would debut new songs live and see how they went down. How else would you do it? Its not something that you can put down to science OK, you can analysis it to death but inspiration doesn't come out of some kind of recipe. Otherwise we'd all be doing it if it was something you could learn from a some songwriting 'workshop' or whatever.
Something you might like, other people wont, something they like, you wont. You could go on forever trying to please everyone! Just try and target your own crowd, stick to your principles
Hi, some song writers would consider me an ememy. I am a music producer.I tell you how to improve your music and often have practical input into recordings.Sometimes songs don't need improvement but that is usually an exception than the norm. Sometimes clients have a strong emotional attachment to a song and are offended by the interpretation I render the song. However, it is times like these that they forget that it is in my vested interest to ensure their song gets the audience it deserves and is the best that it can be. Do your own research and see how many songs in any given genre in the music charts got there without the input of a music producer.Of course not everyone aims to be in the music charts, but then what are you doing reading this blog?
I play it for two honest friends. Then I play it out and see if it feels like the audience connects with it. If it doesn't, I try to figure out why not. Once I spent a lot of money on a song consultant and she taught me some really good things, but she was also blatantly and so unnecessarily mean. Honest feedback is so helpful, but mean comments just hurt and temporarily disable me. I'd like to have a mentor of some kind, but now I'm gun shy.
My original tunes have only been instrumentals and I don't think I'm enough of a poet to write my own lyrics at this point. However, when I start--I'll go to a songwriting camp or workshop and let the instructors and other students have a go at critique as that seems to be the place to get good feedback.
Since that is Prince's main theme of the entire tune--I thought that was pretty weird advice. If it had been my tune--I would have been crushed--but since it was Prince's tune--I recognized it for the bad advice it was. 
Although--I'm not entirely sure that some of the feedback is not entirely without issues anywhere.
For instance, in a vocal clinic last year--we were readjusting the wording of our songs to make them clear and since I didn't have an original tune, I used Prince's "When Doves Cry." The instructor let her husband give critique and he was unfamiliar with Prince and thought I had written the song and suggested I take out the word "alone".
On my instrumentals--if it sounds right in my heart--I go ahead and record it and let the listeners decide if its for him/her or not. There always seem to be lots of folks who write and say how much they enjoy the tunes and I wouldn't want to change the tunes for the folks that like them for the folks who like something else.
I don't release it until it is done. At which point it is there for the people that will connect to it just as it is.
All my music to this point is instrumental, though. I think if I were writing a song with lyrics this would be different.
I usually take it to the band first and ask them for their honest opinions. I also run it by my wife, who is brutally honest. Once the band has heard it and started making changes that they hear, we run it by some outsider friends for their input. It works pretty good for us, and our songs always evlove with the entire band having input.
I find I am better off relying on my own gut about a song.
It doesn't matter if anyone else says it's good or not because I don't know if they are just being nice or not.
I know I would never dis another persons work even if I wasn't into it because I don't want to discourage anyone putting themselves out there.
And I don't like a lot of major stuff that sells like crazy. Does this mean they aren't good songs?
Ironically, I have one song that gets a lot of play on a web radio site and it's not at all a good seller, but 5 Djs picked it up and now it's also on the regular rotation.
I don't think it's bad or I would haven't put it out there, but wouldn't exactly call it a favorite.
As for peers, I find they can be the worst to ask because some may be envious.
Being a fiction writer as well, I had a writer friend who used to critique my work and she loved it until I got published.
She had not had anything published and after that she began shredding my work so badly I had to end the friendship.
So I just don't trust others feedback all that much.
My bandmates and friends are often the first line of questioning. I can get some really honest opinions from them and they know I won't take stuff personally.
After that, I usually ask the opinions of other songwriters, other musicians and artist managers I respect by emailing a link to a pretty-much complete tune.
The feedback is good and I pay attention to suggestions but more often go with my instincts... otherwise, my music would just sound like everyone else's or a mish-mash of everyone else's.
The best thing for feedback was garageband.com, but they don't run the site well anymore and the rating system is all screwed up. oh how i wish there was another garageband.com but with a better rating system and more competition.
Just an interesting aside. My drummer and I were talking about performing and found that if anyone criticized our instrumentals--it did not hurt our feelings or bother us in anyway and we were unlikely to believe them because we always played tunes we really liked and if someone didn't like it--we didn't take it personally because we felt confident the music was good.
However, if anyone criticized our singing or lyrics--we felt upset and took it personally. For some reason--singing and lyrics felt more personal than instrumentals and we felt more vulnerable to mean spirited comments. ????
However, a nice friend (and good vocalist) recently gave me some great advice. She said-"take the stage with your singing with the same confidence you play--and you will sound wonderful.
As a professional manager, I am often on the giving end of song critique. My first move is to ascertain the motive of the writer. If their motive is "Hit" then I immediately evaluate the song from its suitability for radio. Is it too long? Does it comfortably fit a radio format? Are there strong hooks? Are there any elements such as language or instrumentation that would alienate that format of radio? Does the hook come in soon enough and does it repeat enough?
I also look for glaring mistakes such as poor rhymes; tenses that are mixed up (past, present, future); persons mixed up (he, she, him, you); unclear images or references; dated language or musical riffs etc.
In general, I think it is good to provide some positive feedback first, maybe making sure that the first 4-5 comments are positive. Then note that any feedback has to do with ones personal preferences. Use "I" statements, such as; "At that point where you end the song, I think I would prefer a shorter, almost sudden ending, but I am going to listen to it a few more times before I give you anymore of an opinion." You get the idea.
oh and i'd like to add to my last post - i've never found another good way to get honest feedback besides garageband.com(when it was working right, now it takes a month to get 20 reviews)
BUT, i've tried other things. When i play my music for friends or fans or people that i've just met, they always say good things. sometimes asking them to ge negative and tell me what songs they would skip helps, but even that doesnt work really. My friends and people i meet are all from the same area and have certain tastes. When you get a worldwide perspective, the real hits stand out. no show, or company, or friend or fan or random people are going to give you good perspective on what the world will think. We need a website for this i think.
I think a songwriter should learn to please him or herself and express him or herself. If you are totally sure that the song represents your personality or an aspect of it then it's a no-lose situation. Trying it out live is a good way of forming your own judgement. Don't worry about other people's judgement, it's not their job to decide whether or not your work is worthwhile. I'm not a big Phil Collins fan but I heard him say recently that by the time anyone hears a song of his, he's already decided it's a keeper, and I agree with that approach.
Hey Derek great response,
I've done most of my songs with co-writers, and occasionally I write some solo. Sometimes it flows like sap out of a maple in the spring, then there are other times, hmm, hardly worth the effort of trying. As far as being critiqued, like one of your readers said, some will like one song, and some will hate it. That's why we have different genre's of music. Ever see a heavy metal band play Johnny Cash? Well I did, but not too often, well maybe I should have said country. But always put your songs on the shelf for a little while, because you can usually point out your own mistakes.
Guy
http://www.nrtco.net/~guykelli/
The manner in which i play my new songs for others varies. Sometimes it's just for my sisters, or my closest friends, and sometimes we'll play it as a band at a show.
The main thing i have to say is, that you should always listen to peoples criticisms but not take them too heavily at first. I'm very protective and perhaps over protective of my songs, and it tends to hit deep when people just make rash generalizations about my newers songs.
The thing is, being new, the song is still growing, evolving, developing in it's own individual way and a great song can be stunted or completely dismembered by some know-it-all's criticisms. You can find good feed back and advice but don't let the nay sayers bring about the demise of a new song.There is always at least a little bit of life in every musical idea.
I guess I have confidence in myself, in that I'm interested in playing my songs for other people, and want honest criticism, but I rarely change anything because someone says I should, unless it's a technical thing having to do with mixing, or a recording technique ("don't put the mic so close to the soundhole," etc.). Could be because I know very few Berklee College of Music level musicians; the punkers and grungers I know usually say, "Wow, man, great...," which is OK, but not very helpful. Or they say, "Hmm, I dunno...," but can't articulate just what they don't like. This is a general problem I have--I have to learn and do everything myself because I don't know anyone who's knowledgeable enough to help me!
But, yeah, as far as lyrics go, I trust in me.
Usually a handful of trusted friends. I am always looking for constructive criticism, unless it's the third or fourth go around and I'm ready for the "It's perfect!" comment.
I try to finish the song the way that i hear it and then get some feedback from different people and if i am hearing mostly the same comments whether its good or bad then I'll go back and tweak it or just leave it as is.
In my opinion a good songwriter can write to any blank piece of music presented to them. The tone of the music itself sets the inspiration for the topic or theme of the song. For example if someone handed me “Shinny Happy People” without a vocal melody attached to it, assuming I never heard the song before I don’t think I would write something dark song against the musical canvass. I‘ve heard of people writing lyrics first, then the music. Well I’ve never done it like that in my 20 years of composing. Here’s how I compose a song. I was flattered to find out this is exactly the formula Paul McCartney and John Lennon used for many years:
BTW - My experience lies in composing hard rock, rock, mainstream pop, and country music.
- Write the basic musical skeleton on a guitar using 3 or 4 different connecting parts or progressions that mix things up and compliment each other.
- Begin the “la la la” stage of plugging in a melodic line that goes with the music and has a catchy rhythm all it’s own. A great vocal melody line can stand on it’s own two feet without any music at all.
- Write the chorus first to establish a musical foundation, then build off it.
- Begin writing versus that lead up to the meaning of the chorus. These parts can be ambiguous in meaning compared to the chorus which must be direct and to the point.
Below are characteristics that make up a really good piece of music.
- Makes a real and genuine connection with a listener emotionally.
- Short and sweet experience.
- Has several parts that mix things up and maintain focus of the listener.
- Leaves a strong and lasting impression with a listener.
CRITICAL - The emotions heard in the vocal delivery will always be the most important selling point of the song.
Cyrus Rhodes
Guitarist foe Seven Against Thebes
www.7at.net
I have written what I have written.
OK, so that was Pontiac Pilate.
But if you don't know what you're writing don't write the damn thing.
Wow. That's a ton of feedback and I'm sure my answer is probably already covered. The songs I write are always growing even after I record them. I guess I am my own greatest critic. But, one thing I would suggest is being open-minded. Sometimes I'll find I'm stuck on a storyline or a lyric or chord progression because I've put so much time and effort into it... and sometimes have to just realize it's not the answer and approach the song from a different angle. Just do not get caught up with one approach to the song no matter how much you've put into it. One friend suggested I change a slower song I'd written by increasing tempo and putting it to a reggae beat. Works great!
I play it for a couple friends, and I put it on my web site as soon as I can get a decent demo - some songs are easier to do that with than others. But I know I have the essence if my wife likes it - she doesn't know about music, but she knows about BullShit. If she likes it, a lot of other people will, too.
A few things I do:
Just write the song and arrange and record it 'in one go' as much as you can. In my experience the basic energy that drives you when it comes out is the most precious.
Be very critical in every decision you make. Never go for the easy options. Otherwise you'll sound like everybody else.
Make sure the lyrics fit the feel of the music, make sure it's a 'round' story.
Try to keep the three balls in the air juggling with: rythm, melody and harmony.
Try to get a nice energy curve in the song, keeping the attention of the listeners.
Many songwriters fix the melody to a chord progression they like. Let go of logical chord progressions and try to pick up on where the melody wants to go by itself. Make up your own chords if you have to.
Have a banana, go to sleep or whatever.
Let it rest for a few weeks. Listen again. Work on possible flaws.
Be your own worst critic. Be you! That is the only way to become an original. It's the hardest way, but you get authentic songs.
In my opinion. Dare to be different.
With plug ins and all the media everythings is sounding the same already.
Never rest until you're completely satisfied.
Don't ask anyone. Do what you feel is best and believe in it.
Have fun!
Ruud
My test for the strength of a song is whether or not it sounds really good just playing solo on an acoustic guitar. Any great song sounds good played on a solo guitar. I lay down a track and listen back to it. If it doesn't stand on its own I know it's not a good song. You can take a good song and add instrumentation and vocals and sing harmonies and the
song will sound really good, however, no matter how much you do in the studio, you'll never create a great song out of a poor one. For example, last week I recorded on a cheapo hand held recorder myself singing a new song. Listened and thought I can work with this and it became within a few days this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5izaXb6VgF0
i have two sides to my musical identity so i use two different methods. 1. i play in a country band that performs several of my tunes. i bring them in as 'finished' songs but the other members have often made suggestions for both music and lyrics. every song has gotten better because of their input. the ones we keep are based on audience reaction. 2. i also write jazz instrumentals that i record myself in my home studio. i ask for no feedback on these since they are 'my babies'. you can hear them at www.rickcicconetti.com or at www.myspace/rickcicconetti or better yet, cdbaby/rickcicconetti/underthewaterfall.
I've done so many things... The least effective has been sending songs in progress to a creatively-minded friend who I knew was not really into the style of music I was doing. I thought he might be able to listen more objectively and give me some truly illuminating feedback. Instead I ended up getting so hung up trying to get him to like the music I about threw it all out.
Another fail is listening over and over myself, or physically mapping out the song visually on paper (tracking dynamics, what kinds of arrangements I'm using, etc.) Obsessing makes me end up hating the song because I've listened and thought about it so much I can hear every tiny mistake, even taking in a breath a second too late.
Anything that takes me away from my personal connection to the music is suspect. I like playing a song and watching the non-verbal response the listener gives, but realizing it only means so much. Trying something out live is great, you can read the body language and get a lot from that, and you can always tell the difference between polite applause and actual "hey that was good" applause. The good stuff rises to the top over many sets, and a lot of times I'll put a plus sign by a song on the setlist if I get a good response from it.
I would love to have a collaborative experience working with someone who's able to help me shape the song, but most of the people I interact with are too polite or unable to articulate well what they're thinking. I've gotten better over the years at listening to my gut and admitting as soon as possible if a song is sucking wind.
I usually will shop the song around to some of my friends within the industry. Usually they give me a straight forward answer, and will comment or express issues/concerns they may have with the song. From there, I usually perform it at a few new shows.
What do you do for feedback on a new song you’re writing?
* Do you play it for a few friends, looking for praise?
Only if the song was written for them specially.
* Do you play it for a few friends, looking for criticism? (Really asking, “What don’t you like about it?”)
Occasionally I will request feedback from a friend or relative that has heard a song.
* Do you upload it to your site, and email everyone you know, asking what they think?
No. If I have something I think is worthwhile, I go ahead & copyright it legitimately. Since I record only very basic at home, if it's not worthy - if I don't feel good about it - I wouldn't spend money on a studio for it.
* Do you send it to a company for paid critique?
I don't like to pay for critiques if I can help it. But I suppose if there were someone I really thought highly of in the business that I trusted to give a straight constructive opinion, that would be a possibility
* Do you have a songwriting teacher or mentor?
No, but I would love to have that.
When you get feedback, are you looking to change and improve your song?
Depends on the feedback. I have a peer group I share with (a songwriting organization). Everyone is on a different professional level. Many focus on book rules. My personal focus is on what feels right. Many of my peers aren't listening to contemporary radio. I am an old lady, but I still listen to what's out their now. Some spend hours picking a phrase apart. I take it all with a grain of salt. The test comes in performance. If I feel awkward, embarrassed, or really old-fashioned singing a phrase I know I need to change it. Mainly I want to feel good about it.
Or by the time someone hears it, is it pretty much done?
Sometimes I tweak after performing, but I wouldn't go through a full recording session if I wasn't happy with it.
Someone made a comment above. I know some of my music wouldn't be what some people are looking for. As a soloist, I don't currently have that contemporary edge. I am working more on performance style. Anything can go if you are in the right market for it. So, create the market for your music, or write for the market. Or try something different. (Like I am working on some children's songs as well as contemporary folk-rock-whatever-you-want-to-call-it. Go figure, you hear the worst songs sometimes on the radio, but someone still gets behind it. Some of it is luck & some of it is an angle, marketing, or whatever.
I just enjoy it!
Often I record it, put it away, listen weeks or months (years) later, make changes, then repeat until I don't have anything else to add. I then guess which will be most popular on itunes and am usually wrong. The most popular seem to be things that "just came to me" or were improvised in 1-2 takes. A feedback venue would be great!
Boy oh boy! This can be a slippery slope. When I'm writing a song I don't ask for feedback from anyone. What I do is LISTEN. If it's a line I'm missing it will come out in a conversation, a book you may be reading, a movie, or even another song. The key is to LISTEN to everyting around you. I find that it's right in front of me. Pay attention. I don't ask anybody for feedback because I get confused, lose the point or message of what I'm trying to convey and someone else is trying to insert what they are trying to convey and thinks this or that should be said or sung. As a songwriter, it is I who must like the song. I you collaborate, you both have to like the song or make compromises. I present it to the band and if they like it, we work on it and sometimes it changes but I still like it. Most of the changes that happen to my songs are usually musical more that change of the lyrics. There have been times when I've adjusted the lyrics to what they have come up with musically. There have been times when they have told me that the song is too short or long and I've either remove a line or come up with another verse, etc. I've never had a teacher or consultant help. For me in has to come from inside of me.
I have been writting songs, or composing music for over thirty years and my means of getting feed back have varied. Although I was never interested in praise, I was curious to see what reached people, and also wanted critisism. When I wanted feedback on music I would usualy go to an eclectic handful of people of which I valued their musical perspective. (perhaps), A classical horn player, a folk musician, a close friend or two and an elder...
I've never been interested in "HOW MANY PEOPLE I COULD REACH", Making the best music posible has been my vision, though I do agree that audience response can be a good indication that your song works.
35 years down the road, there is no feedback before performance. I compose a piece, the band helps in arranging and Voilé.
First I play my ideas into a tape recorder and listen to myself repeatedly while developing and editing the song. Then when the song is formed I play it for my husband, who is also my bass player, and get his feedback. I know it works if he picks up his bass right away and wants to play it. If he's lukewarm about it I ask for constructive criticism and take it back to my studio to work out the bugs. When I feel a song is ready I play it at my next performance and see how the audience responds to it.
I'll play it for my wife and daughter, and they'll tell me if they like it, or if it needs work. I'll mess around with based on that feedback.
Then I'll bring it the band and if they like it, play it the next show.
I play it for a few people at various stages in the writing process to see if their views are close to mine...this way I know if I'm on the right track or need to look at the approach I'm taking. The people I play it for are usually people I can trust to give me honest feedback.
OH and a bit furher, sometimes I'll come up with achorus or a line that will actually make my wife angry. Mostly the lyric has nothing to do with her. like I just was trying out this song "Keep on Truckin" and she couldn't get past that line. So I revamped it and I think I have a better song now.
Peers can be cool as well. Somebody outside your bubble can see/hear stuff you can't.
As a Contemporary Gospel Artist I write songs based on my relationship with God. After every recording I listen to it over and over again as if I am not the artist. If I don't feel the warmth or presence of God through the praise and worship in the songs, then others won't either. If I can sleep to a song all night or wake up with the song in my spirit I know that God has had his way through me musically.
Derek... This is a fav subject
I always get critiques from Pat Pattison when he is in town twice a year, Steve seskin also turns up some times, these sessions cost $100 for 3 hrs with 5 -10 writers.
I take my songs ance a month to songsalive for evaluation $60 /year.
I take my Songs to NSAI Australia in Sydney once a month send them to NSAI in Nashville once a month
$150 /year.I
I send others to TAXI and get evaluations, membership and $5 / song.
I mention the price because I find this invaluable. A proffessional critique or one from your peers, is the best way to move your somgs past good to great. Playing the songs infront of an audience small or large i also invaluable.
Derek....I Love what your doing for songwriters. Good on ya!
Wow! I wish I could get as much feedback on my music as you're getting on this e-mail! I get song ideas all the time. A lot of my ideas, I realize on my own they are not worth finishing. On the other hand, some of my music is amazingly God inspired, and I know it was meant to be. Most of my songs have to survive the test of time, how they sound recorded, and how people respond to them. I also seek out and welcome any advise and opinions I can get. Especially if it's someone other than friends and family - who are only going to tell you good things. And I am never beyond editing and changing my work to make it better. I'm always short on time and money. So workshops and classes have not been an option for me. But I would love to do those things if I could. In the end, the final say on a song becoming "a finished song" will come from what my own heart is telling me.
Hey Derek, great post and one that is important to anyone who is trying to become a successful songwriter.
This is a question that is front and center to each song I write. I think that it is most essential to compare your song to what has been successful, whilst not allowing that to change the voice of you as an artist.
I like to think of it as a happy medium of trying to create something that comes from your core and connects to humanity and also has memorability based on the hook and length of segments.
What I have done is submit to songwriting competitions, send my new weekly song out to my fanlist asking for their feedback and try to make sure I am following some kind of underlying structure to the song.
I think that finding communities to give feedback are immensely important and would love to find some that really work online and aren't all about people just posting with 'hey check out my new song'...I did like GarageBand.com's review swapping procedure that they had, but it didn't feel like getting true critiques from other songwriters.
--
John Lennon, Jim Morrison & David Bowie come together to inspire the music of Andrew Hand.
Currently Andrew is working on Songs For Oprah, a 52 week song & music video project, find out more at http://songsforoprah.com. "...I love your idea...The video looks great." - Derek Sivers founder of CD Baby
andrewhand@andrewhand.com
646.623.9363
http://www.andrewhand.com
http://www.songsforoprah.com
--
The hardest person I have to impress is me. Once I feel like I've done well by my standards then I'll ask some friends for some feedback.
I do all of my creating in Logic so I can lay some tracks down and then come back to it later. If it still sounds good then I keep working on it. But you've got to give your ear time away so you can hear it without the emotional charge behind it.
It ultimately has to be able to communicate and connect with people so you want to be sure you are not so lost in your attachment to that particular song that you can't HEAR IT.
The trap for me is that I can get too critical of my own music and then work it to death. A workshop would be great at this juncture.
I belong to a group of songwriters and we get together and play our songs for each other. Some of us don't like criticism, but I ask for it and I get it. Helps a lot.
Sometimes you write a song and you know it's good. It doesn't hurt to bounce it off friends or an audience at a show. What really matters is if you like it.
I go to the piano and write what's in my head..so far so good.
You can hear them at www.gelbardjazz.com
I will show it to the musicians at the arts school I attend. I can ofter get good feedback and I find ways that I can easily improve it. There's no better place for mixing feedback than your parents.
writing a song is making a sandwich..i know what i like,know when its finished,all are different and should one listen to my sandwichs of songs they will taste them.
I take as many friends and family opinions as I can get, but I would actually welcome new and other methods to get feedback and input in a song. I would like to have the chance to have a class or group of other songwriters hash out my song. Perhaps a social networking site, but with smaller groups of other musicians that each could submit a song to the group and each member listens and gives ideas back. The problem with current social sites is that your audience is much to large to care about each new song.
Derek,
I like to test new songs by playing them to perfect strangers.
A good rule of thumb is to play your songs to a variety of age groups not just your target market.
Hope that helps someone!
Last but not least you all can take a listen to my songs at cdbaby.com/paytc
or paythecreator.com
The Greatest hits are coming out 2009!
since ive been produced by people and it left a nasty taste in my moputh and really not liking music for quite awhile ive found teh best way is to NOT "try" and write a song let it write itself and if you like listening to it- you got it..of course unless youve had several hundred experiences it may be difficult toget a good look at it..what id try and do is not repeat things.. or insult an audiences intelligence by bashing them with the chorus ive found teh best music ive written is what comes out of my hands and head unpolluted by others vision, otherwise... you are writing their songs not your own does that make sense..a hit gets to be ahit with money and indie promoters,, and if it works on a guitar or piano in a dark room by itself.. youve got half the makings of a good song..told to me by my best priducer Andy Mckaie who is now the senior VP at universal (he did my first album in 1981
So Derek - is this just some lengthy chat ... or are you actually planning to go through these answers, condense them down to the best advice, and write an article that we can all read? lol Beth
Being my own harshest critic, there is much to be said for write, re-write and re-write again before playing for anyone.
I am fortunate to have found a producer who tells it like it is and will not produce a song he considers underdeveloped.
But truly, performing a new song in front of an audience gives me the most honest feedback. I have learned to trust my instincts, and not get too crushed because there is always another song waiting in the wings.
I was in a songwriters group many years ago and found it to be helpful to a degree. I moved from that area and have had no one but myself and my audiences at live shows for critiques.I don't present a song until I have labored over it and felt that it was ready. I will make a recording of it and listen to it. If I like it there isn't much anyone can say to make me change it. Songs are subjective, what one likes another won't. If someone I trust says to can it, I probably would but that hasn't happened yet.
Well it may sound obvious but I started a group on face book which is made up of friends and "friends" Since they joined the group I would imagine that they would be interested in old songs news songs and stuff we as a band are up too. So I posted songs fro, previous albums, un-released songs and songs that are brand new. Some people leave feedback. Not nearly as much as I would like but hey!!!
How you doing Derek?
I don't actually run my songs by anyone until they are completed (apart from the producer)and I woulnd't change something because a listener thought i should. I don't know that probably sounds really bad but I write what I feel or what I'm thinking so someone else's thoughts aren't really relevant...thats a whole other song
For me when I write I'm expressing myself and only I know what's going on in that respect. And the real buzz or magic is when someone relates to that. So it starts off quite isolated and then it becomes related. I think it's too hard to please all the people all the time and not something that I even try to do or worry about. I know the business side of things says you should give the people what they want, market for a target audience etc etc and that's why I love CDBaby because it's for everyone. no matter what there are highly successful bands out there who have sold millions of records but there are people who hate their music and vice versa. So I create then see who likes it. If people don't like it I can't cater to meet their needs. That's not what it's about for me. I appreciate constructive criticism because it is interesting to see what other people think but it in no way influences me for what I do in the future or go back and change.
It's weird but after years of making up songs, I've some how learned how to be the objective "third person". It should be obvious what works and what doesn't. But I would never put anyone on the spot and ask if they liked it. If people genuinely like something, they'll tell you. I never started making songs for other people - it was more "what would I like to hear that I can't buy at the record store?" and go that direction.
Luckily, I've had positive feedback,so far.
I have friends who are also writers and they are very honest. Also, I submit my song for a critique with one of the professionals at www.songU.com. I have gotten the best suggestions for tweaking and re-writes from my favorite coach there.
I have written hundreds of songs over the years and what I have found most helpful, is not to ask anyone their opinion at all, whatsoever.
I'll usually leave opinion to the mass appeal of the general public. The reason why I do this, is strictly for the fact of knowing that specifically everyone of us has a different opinion and viewpoint about anything and everything. And usually the opinions solicited may not be what you're looking for anyway. Since it's human nature to seek recognition and praise. So, when we don't get it, it's kind of dismantling and humiliating at best. The response received, primarily will be a meaningless one at best, since many people aren't in-tuned to music or much at all for many reasons that I'd rather not go in to at this juncture.
What it all relates to at best in simple terms, is heartfelt emotion. If the song that's written is performed to tug on the heart strings and emotions, and/or if most of the listeners who will hear it, connect in one way shape or form, as it delivers an empathetic heartfelt impact to the music listener, believe me you'll definately get results and legitimate feedback precisely from those who will generally purchase the track/album. So, why waste valuable time on worthless opinions when sales statistics will eventually divulge true honest and accurate results. That's the only opinion that really counts.
Be well and best of luck to all.
Staten Island Johnny
ATRAXmusicCO.COM
Since the melody comes first for me, I'll first ask members of my family if it sounds like a familiar song, as creating new lyrics for an established tune would be a little crazy.
After that it's played for fellow musicians' comments.
As I am pretty well tucked away I play the song to myself.
Working on a song I will hear it over and over again through the speakers attached.
When I think I have what I want I'll listen to the song through a headset. This is where thumbs up or down come in.
I won't play it just once. A few times.
Usually the "headset" says "fix this or that" and this goes on until I finally think I have it
BUT the real test is the following day. I scare the bejuzzes out of myself when I sit down, bring the song file up and click "play". Because I know, now, I am going to hear it in a different head. A different state of mind. If I like it after that it gets posted...
Sorry I am such a Nilsson-type freak but that's how I do it.
Now: Once posted if I get any critiques of what someone hears could be better I check it out. If I think "yeah"..I edit the song. For example one musician like my stuff musically but thought I should put in more 'high" and less "middle" because he thought some tracks sounded slightly muddy. I love that kind of stuff. I can tell when someone has really listened to my stuff because now and then I like a track so much and it just means something to me, personally, even though I know it's off in many areas, I'll post it. Back into my corner..I know..
I'm a bit different I suppose. I'll keep a song to myself until it's right and then let it loose.
Case in point: I play the Chapman Stick. Emmett Chapman had a Eureka moment back in 1969 when he came up with the two-handed tapping technique we all use on his instrument. He told me of that moment and I took what he said and turned it into a storytelling format with a little Stick traveling music underneath. When the song was finished it just felt completely right. I let it loose and he loved it enough to put it on his website permanently at Stick Enterprises. The lyric and the Mp3 are here:
http://www.stick.com/news/stirling.html
Enjoy - Sean Rhys Stirling
At first, I wasn't going to release a second CD because response was so flat for my first. So I decided to try a different compositional approach.
I wrote shorter melodies. I played shorter, less angular solos. I shortened song lengths to make the music more radio friendly. I lived with these songs for days, weeks, sometimes months, listening to them at home, in the car, listening for anything that might make me question something. If I were playing too many notes, being overly complex, if the energy level drops at an unsafe level, if I needed to add a part or take out a part, if I needed to rewrite or remove a song all together! Then after all that, I posted my new songs on my myspace page and waited to hear what people thought. Pretty scary, but when most of the responses were positive, I decided to proceed with the CD project. I know this process is time-consuming but I had time on my hands so why not use it? I have no deadline to meet.
I figured when dealing with instrumental music, especially contemporary jazz, I'd better work on communicating with as many people as I can. That can be difficult when there are no lyrics for a listener to hear. I didn't want to play cliche licks, or water down the music to a point where I didn't enjoy what I was doing, and I definitely didn't want to come off being complex for the sake of complexity! It won't amount to a hill of beans if I write and play music that only musicians "get". Hopefully, I have achieved such balance on my upcoming CD, but only the listeners can tell me that for sure.
And I hope there will be lots of them!
P Wig
I used to criticize my music to much and that held me back from finishing many songs. Now I just trust what ever song is coming out of me is the message that my high self is sending out to the universe and I have faith that it will touch someone when the time is right and the person is in the right frame of mind. So I don't ask for feed back on my songs and I don't worry if people like my songs or not. My songs my not be popular until hundreds of years after I leave this planet, but I don't worry about that I just write what comes to me and I have faith it's the right thing and I keep chanting Nam Myo-ho Ren-ge Kyo for in the inspiration to keep flowing.
I usually write songs from beginning to finish in under 30 minutes, and then never edit them. If I remember the song the next day then I keep it. I heard an interview with Willie Nelson awhile back, and he has the same process. He admitted that he has lost alot of potentially great songs. If it moves me then I am satisfied.
Hello:
The Brymers will be entereing the studio in June to record their fourth album in two years. We have plenty of originals, but are always looking for great 60's flavored rockers to record. To hear The Brymers style of music, visit: www.thebrymers.com.
Many thanks,
Dick Lee
I have belonged to a local songwriters association for over 10 years. We have a gentler way. We encourage, support and mentor each other. We gather twice a month and also cooperate in putting on performances to raise funds for the association as well as for local charities. I favour the Artist's Way method of stimulating and nurturing our creative spirit (The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron). Visit our website at www.prsaonline.com (Peace Region Songwriters Association). Often 'tearing it apart and analyzing every note' is a method that can be devastating to a new songwriter and can be easily abused by a blocked writer as a way of trying to make themselves sound clever at someone else's expense. If feedback isn't positive it isn't helpful. Feedback that doesn't encourage the writer to find the way themselves is just bullying or bulldozing. I cannot stress enough how important gentle encouragement has been in my growth as a songwriter. You can read my lyrics or hear the songs from my first CD at my website (www.lindaconnellstudley.com) Be kind to each other.
Linda Connell Studley
This whole thread is goldmine of supporting examples for all the things I've been writing about in my upcoming book.
The responses show the two major divisions, that is, between writers who write primarily to express (i.e. to please themselves, without regard for the listener's reaction ), and those who write primarily to communicate (i.e convey a specific idea or message to others). Refer to:
http://www.billpere.com/PDF/Express_Communicate.pdf
and for a directly relevant discussion of this whole thread in a new light, see:
http://www.billpere.com/PDF/FourFaders_Article.pdf
Not to say that an inward vs, an outward focus is better/worse/right/wrong, just fundamentally different. The key is that those writing to please only themselves will generally have a smaller audience, so it is important to make expression over communication a conscious choice, rather than one that comes from not knowing your other options, or from fear of critique.
A key question for any songwriter or artist to ask is: Why would you settle for "x" number of fans when you could have "x + 1". The only way to achieve the latter is to make the fans, the audience, an integral part of your crafting process (not creative process, but the post-creative crafting process). Knowing how impartial listeners are reacting gives you the choice to try to expand your fan base by addressing the things they point out, in a way that remains artistically acceptable. This can be done, and is a fundamental skill of great songwriters.
Be aware of simple facts such as the impossibility of the writer or anyone close to them to know if the song is actually communicating the intended meaning (that requires an impartial outsider); And the impossibility of the writer or singer knowing if anyone is hearing the words correctly (oronyms such as 'kiss the sky' and 'kiss this guy' can only be detected by someone who does not already know the words).
Many of these responses also are revealing a blurring of the creative process and the crafting process. Critique/re-writing is a part of crafting and in no way compromises creative and artistic integrity - in fact it only enhances it, and it always remains under the control of the artist to apply objective feedback as he/she sees fit.
Self-critiquing is not effective, as in most cases for Indie artists, they are missing 70% of their potential audience (See: http://www.billpere.com/PDF/MBTI%20S-N%20Bullseye%20in%20Lyrics.pdf
and
http://www.billpere.com/PDF/Concrete-Abstract%20SeeSaw.pdf )
Lots of responses here say they rely on audience reaction in live performance - this makes it difficult to discern the difference between the effect of the performance vs the quality of the actual song itself. Songcraft, stagecraft, and studiocraft are distinctly different.
Finally, a level-one critique (like/don't like) can never give a writer insight as to WHY the song is or is not working, and thus provides no actionable information to apply to improving the effectiveness of future songs.
That takes a level-3 critique by someone who knows how to objectively look at the parameters of the song.
The whole area of critique, which many songwriter associations work hard to hone and perfect, is an invaluable source of insight as to how expand your fan base and the reach and impact of your songs.
Hello Derek and friends of the blog,
I have a small group of friends that I've accumulated over the years. Some are/were business associates (like a studio engineer), other entertainers (a magician), and two people I've done movie soundtracks for.
These are the people that have heard my worst, and me theirs but we have a "no holds barred" policy where we take our egos and feelings out of the equation and we depend on each other for honest feedback. This way we can talk, make fun of each other and correct things before we put it out there for everyone else.
One of the things I don't do is
1. Let my family hear it.
2. Let my girlfriend hear it.
3. let the public hear it.
The reason being that most of these people are not artists and don't get the idea of a work in progress. I've had family make faces and be completely turned off to a song of a scratch vocal and just a guitar/etc but love the finished product, whereas the other artists that I trust can see the diamond in the rough, so to speak. I do the same for them. A magic act with no frills or a movie scene with no sound effects and poor editing can still be great in the proper context. It's a great system and since we are always in other states/countries a quick email is all it takes.
When someone has trouble downloading or in a slow area, I just throw it up on youtube from my webcam real quick and disable comments, send them the link and take it down after they watch.
Hope this helps, Never give up!
I don't try to write to please anyone but myself which I guess is one reason why I don't make a living with my songs.
For myself, I know a song is finished when I feel it resonate in my heart or chest rather then just my mind. I know it may sound flakey but that's the way it is for me.
For feedback I'll often ask my wife or my guitarist for opinions.
Wilton
1. I play it at a gig & my "inner songwriter" can "feel it" in that magic environment & I also get feedback from select audience members.
2. 3 or 4 sets of trusted & brutally honest ears
3. My writing partners if it's a co-write
4. Me, after I've lived with it.
Easy, I play it to my best critic, my wife!
Songs are like pizza. What one person thinks is great another person will think is trash.
A good songwriter knows when a song is good. That doesn't mean it can't be improved on, and songwriting workshops are fine, but any opinion you get is just an opinion. You want people to like it, but you have to like it too. If it's not your style or why bother?
I'm an old fart who has had many songs played on the radio but never really made much money so this is just another opinion.
You have to be careful who you pick for a mentor. There are many sharks in Nashville posing as mentors.
I let jazz guys play it and then I know if it stacks up. I can hear whether it's any good or not once we do it live and they improvise over the chord changes. I also have a partner that is so critical that if he likes it or absolutely hates it I know I'm on to something.
There is a website www.sellaband.com, where music lovers from all around the world search for artists they like to fund their next album. In this web after uploading your song, you will have a lot of people telling you what they think about your songs, and if they like it, they will even help you to fund your next cd
I have been writing songs for almost thirty years now.When I am close to finished,then I will let someone hear my song.I do not do much for colaberation these days,but i am working with other songwriters who know and put the music to my lyrics.I have many songs that I have written that were never heard until after they were recorded by myself.
First I'll play it for fellow musicians and get their opinion about it. Then I'll upload it to my website and invite others to go there and listen and leave me their opinion about it.I also have friends at radio stations I let listen to it.
Typically for me it's a three step process:
1. Try it out on my wife.
2. Try it out for a couple of critique groups I belong to.
3. Play it live and gauge the reaction.
Aside from all this, inherent in the process is still a good bit of trusting my own instincts. In terms of other people's comments, I've learned that a single criticism, even from someone whose views I highly respect, is generally not something I need to take too much to heart. However, if multiple listeners all have the same or a similar criticism, that's a definite sign that there's a problem that needs to be corrected.
1)Play it for the band and see if they get into it and start adding parts.
2)Play it on stage, see if anyone comments after the show.
3)Record rehearsal - share tapes with other musicians who may have something to add.
4)And sometimes if I like the song, just keep playing it until someone else connects to it.
5)Always suprised by what others like.
Some of the song contests out there can be useful if they provide feedback - critiques. The Unisong International Song Contest, the Billboard World Song Contest and the VH1 Song of the Year Contest all do critiques that can prove helpful. Also just let other musicians that you respect hear it and take in there feedback. In the end though it really amounts to each songwriters own inner vision.
I use the Just Plain Folks Website,lyric feedback forum.There are thousands of writers ,musicians etc there. Also use Nashville Songwriters Association but you have to be a member. Also i play the song for anyone who will listen.You do need a tough skin because sometimes people will tear your song apart,but always remeber a song critique is just a persons opinion. Take care, S.Dee
I play it for the band. The people who back me up are incredibly talented and seriously experienced musicians and songwriters -- more so even than I in some cases -- and they are all "tough rooms". If they're willing to play it, I'm good to go. Generally, they will make suggestions -- musically more often than lyrically, but sometimes both -- which will invariably make it a much song for their input. I've been playing with most of these people for 10 years now so I trust them to be honest, but we're also family so I feel safe too. My band are friends, mentors, family and co-creators. They're instincts are always right on. If they like it, I always feel confident putting it in front of an audience.
1. Play your music on the street...
People will give you money for
the songs they like...! (UFOjim)
2. Ask people in the Recording studio... which songs are the
most commercial...! (UFOjim)
At the beginning of my stint as an Arranging and Composition major at Berklee(79)I quickly noticed that my weekly arrangements were going home with the instructor, and taking an awfully long time to be returned to me. (He was actively gigging at the time.)I decided then that my weekly assignments would be as generic as possible, and with not much thought to the structure of the melody, but only to show the particular techniques in which I was instructed to apply.
However, I find that the best way to present your song is to perform it, or record it...and then, "Que Sera, Sera...whatever will be, will be."
My songs usually go through many phases.
1) Recorded on a handheld tape player. Listen back days later.
2) Then presented to the band. They shape the structure & add or subtract parts.
3) Perform in front of small groups of kids in my solo concerts & gauge their interest & responses to energy, feel, humor, etc
4) Record in studio. My engineer gives suggestions on what makes the song work.
5) Send to an guitarist friend for input.
6) Finally, make adjustments in instrumentation, vocal styling, lyrics & put it out for mass consumption.
At any given point in the process I'm ready to make changes or throw out the tune. If a song is to have any success it needs bold & thorough evaluation. Ego checked at the door. Mind open. Mouth closed. Do a lot of listening...to others. But, a stronger development is just listening to your gut. If something is even slightly amiss your gut should tell you. If you love everything in a song you wrote than sleep on it & listen again the next day. Ask yourself: would I play this in front of Bono, or Elton John, or whoever your music hero is? Maybe that's a bit harsh. But maybe that's the true litmus test.
Derek, Man I just have this feeling. If it feels good way down in my soul, I know someone else will feel what I'm feeling. In other words, if it feel good to me I will go for it. I write a lot of songs but if one keep grabbing at me, that is the one I need to record.
We keep all the unfinished stuff on our ftp - then share it among other musicians / friends. It would be nice to extend this mechanism to a larger extent - I think soundcloud is on the right direction. Maybe a "musicians only" last.fm where you get in touch with other musicians with similar tastes/styles and exchange advices. I don't believe in a few universal "tutors" or "expert" who pretend to give you hints on your music - especially now, with so many small niche-fragmented audiences and styles.
My songwriting falls into three categories: What I write-for-hire, what I write with my band, and what I write for myself.
The for-hire stuff is a no-brainer: make the client happy. Once in awhile a client will want something that I don't think suits the project, and if I think they're open enough and the timeline allows for it, I'll ask him/her to "try on" my idea first. If they don't like it after hearing it, I'll give them what they asked for initially (often I've written that already so they don't have to wait for a second round, if possible). Pretty straightforward.
If I'm writing for my band, there's my writing partner to bounce things off of. We also have a couple of people whose judgement we trust, and they'll give us feedback.
Because the group is very niche, it's important for us that we're getting feedback from people who like and listen to music in the genre. I don't think it's constructive to ask someone who generally loves country swing about your new metal song, regardless of what kind of relationship you otherwise have with the person. For me, knowing the likes and dislikes of our evaluators up-front saves time and confusion, and gives you more usable feedback.
It's also a good foundation when the haters come after you - sadly, there are always people who hate some kind of music and feel like they need to unload on you (some of these people are music critics!). So besides getting constructive criticism, having had some validation before our music goes public is good emotional support.
Lastly, when I write for myself, I listen to no one. Time will tell if the piece is great or awful, but in this writing mode it's important for me to hone my own instincts - that's part of my ongoing education. Sometimes I break as many rules as I can, while other times I write in a pre-determined box. I'm not on the clock, and I'm not servicing a client or a writing partner, so anything goes.
I think everyone needs to write in this space at least once in a while, just to see what you're capable of outside your usual writing habits and requirements. If I'm just curious, I might elicit feedback, just to see the response (usually 'what the heck is this noise?'). But in this case, what I learned from the process is the important thing, not the result.
There are very "few" naturally talented enough individuals who can go thru life and acheive great success on their raw talent alone. Most of us need to harness our natural (or un natural for that matter) talents thru patience, practice, experiment, study, experience, and the ability to take criticism good and bad. You might ask why should I take "bad" criticism? Answer: It is always good to see how you are viewed from a completely "different" perspective outside of your own venue. Even from within your venue it is still good to receive bad criticism. One can only stand so much though especially at one sitting! Ha! The object is to keep "growing" with your life experiences. You've heard the old adage: "Keep doing things the way you have been and you can expect to obtain the same results" is indeed true. With songwriting and music creation, you must continually re-invent the wheel to a certain extent otherwise you will get into a rut. Very, very, successful musicians often times find themselves in a rut!! And that's a good thing! It's not knowing your "in" a rut that can be more dangerous. Do not get me wrong here! Muddy Waters was stuck in a "rut" but what a soothing to the ear rut it was indeed. So on and so on. When most of us get into a rut is is not a good thing at all. So, in essence one's ability to accept criticism can only help to improve one's creativity. Quite honestly I do not see how most of us can get to the next level "without" some form of objective criticism from time to time.
derek
i trust my own instincts. i know i am a very good songwriter. i know my taste, and most importantly, i am at the point in my life, where i write what comes. i figure the songs are out there, i just sort of grabbed them. the last thing i want is some bozo's like taxi, evaluating my songs. their criteria is quite wacked. it would be great for american idol, but i'd rather put a needle in my eye. i'm sure this probably isn't helpful, but at least i responded. as woody would say, " take it easy, but take it", james manganello, workhouse poets
there is a site called www.tracktesting.com that do this. they will do one for free I think. We stumbled across it and did it as it was free, then if the track does well they suggest you pay them to distribute your stuff... of course everyone here is quite rightly with ceedee baby, so no sell there
Good idea though Derek, if done without the vested interests. Sorry if someone in the 549 replies above already said this... I only managed to read a couple of hundred and my eyes went blurred :(
I usually start with a scratch track...a couple of instruments so he can feel the vibe and a vocal...give it to my guitar player, and he'll tweak a few chords if needed and start messing with lyrics. he'll send what he changed back to me, and the song will continue to build until we're happy with what we've got, and then the "real" recording begins.
This is a complex subject. Opinions are very subjective to say the least.
1) Most people you play a song for will have a style of music they prefer and everything else is crap to them.
2) Every song I had RECORDED was turned down many times BY PUBLISHERS IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY. Some even went so far to say I was not a songwriter and had no business writing songs. I guess they did not get laid that day.
3) I was at a Taxi event some years ago with a panel of “Music Industry Experts” who were commenting on songs. An extremely well written song popped up that was done in the forties style. They ripped it to shreds, stomped on it, if there was toilet paper available they would of……. Within six months there was a resurgence of this style of music and songwriting several landed in the top ten on Billboard charts.
4) A major music publisher told me about a song she worked for over a year to no avail. It was turned down over and over. Then she got the song recorded and it went top ten. The same people who turned down the song called her and were angry that she did not present the song to them.
5) If anybody had a clue Artists like the Beatles would not have been turned down 30 times before someone got on board.
6) I once took a very highly touted class on songwriting by Pat somebody or other from Berkleey school of music. His course was centered on reading the classics half way through the class I realized he knew nothing about songwriting. What a critiquer he would have made.
7) Usually if a song is very much like a top ten song people will like it. If it is fresh new and original aka “different” people will not like it. Every major artist was different and broke the mold. So who is to say.
I am a songwriter with a bent for electronic devices to color and add ambience to sound. I spent a lifetime analyzing what in a record made self centered me emote. I wanted to understand what it was that stirred my soul and made me find; happiness, sadness, joy, exhilaration etc. I analyze songs that move me until I understand the ambiance of the song. When I write I work to capture that ambiance tone with in the framework of my own song. This approach has also come under fire more times than I can say. Also I find musicians are not a good sounding board, as most are not song writers. Ever listen to a great top forty club band who could play the top ten as good as the artist. Every lick and riff is perfect. Then they will play an original song and you find your self wondering where all those great chord sequences, riffs, licks and dynamics went. Have they learned nothing. Being a musician and being a songwriter are two different things. All this lead me to please myself, please myself, please myself Is that enough echo?
P.S. I play the songs for my cat. I know I have a winner if later in the day, he starts meowing the chorus of my song or leaves me a present in the cat box.
ng or leaves me a present in the cat box.
Here is the music I wrote that my cat liked
Surf
http://www.muzlink.com//artist.do?id=2333
Trans/Electronica
http://www.muzlink.com//artist.do?id=2352
Religious/Spiritual/Jewish
http://www.muzlink.com//artist.do?id=2332
or
Jeffjanning.com
Country (Ronnie Reed), Rock (Johnny Quick), Retro Rock Snocap engine on My Space or Jeffjanning.com
My songs all come from a deep need inside of me to express my life experience through my music. So I don't seek anyone's help or opinion when I write a new song. Oh, I hope people like them don't get me wrong, but it's ok with me if they don't.
I guess the best way to know if people like your stuff is when you find out it's being passed around on some of those trading sites.
You know they're stealing your music but it still feels good to know that they like it enough to steal it.
Derek,
Great subject!
First my wife hears it. She's a good judge because she brutally tells me when I'm on to something and when I'm not. I also get together with a group of other songwriters and we'll let each other hear works in progress to beat up and offer suggestions on lyrics to key choice, etc. The songs that get past those hurdles go into a performed set. I see how they are received by an audience. which is a whole other test. The other songs hang around and get tweaked for a while or trashed to make room for the new ones to go through the process.
when I've recorded a new song i immediately upload it to the myspace profile:
http://www.myspace.com/weareeachotherdotcom
and the imeem profile:
http://imeem.com/amnion
other people's opinions aren't something we usually solicit. i find that can impose boundaries on our creative process, and boundaries aren't what we're trying to define with the music we make.
thanks for getting in touch derek,
aaron
Our main question is: Would you buy it?
We are in the music business to develop artist that can hold an audience, connect with them, & create moments for them to remember.
Another good question Derek!
I used to use four "tools":
1. I rewrite until the song works or gets discarded. But I never throw anything away – going back months later, lines can inspire new songs.
2. When I have about 10 songs that both I and my partner like, I have a "wine tasting" party. I invite a cross section of my friends with diverse musical taste. After the tasting, by which time the guests are feeling pretty "honest", they have to "pay" by rating each song on feel, melody, words and overall rank. They also have a group discussion on what they like or don't like - all comments are captured. I'm only allowed to answer specific questions, otherwise I shut up. The next day I get over my ego and try to understand why the song provoked the comments and I make a selection based on the rating for the songs to take to the next level.
3. I take them to my producer and get his opinion which by now is more focused on edits and arrangements that will put the song in the best light.
4. I submit the song to a contest that will provide some feedback. I always submit one of the songs from the prior year again so that I can gauge how the judging may have changed between years.
Having gone through this process a few times, I've learned to be pretty objective, so step 2 happens less often and step 4 is used more as a benchmark for where my songs stand against other writers and the "taste" of the industry.
I hope this is useful to anyone that reads it – being in Australia I'm often asleep while these pages fill up, so I expect by the time I post this everyone else will have wandered off elsewhere in cyberspace
Gavin.
AND, to make enough money to support our touring.
I do much of what you ask in your topic. Since I am a Christian, and write songs for God, my first objective is to please Him. I figure if He is pleased, probably humans will like it also, but it isn't always the case. I just trust my 'inner Spirit' and go for it. I try to work out of abundance, hopefully bettering my chances of coming up with some good material. Music, like art, is so subjective, and it depends on the listeners likes and dislikes... does everyone hang the same type of art on their wall? Nope. So, half the battle is finding your audience. Those that play live have an advantage, because they have instant focus groups. Those like me who just love to create songs but don't play live, (yet(: it is much tougher. I do email MP3's to a group of my friends, asking for their honest opinion. I also post songs at MySpace, and that has been a great place to get feedback. I've had to be creative, but it's been fun. It can also be discouraging, because of the volume of material, digital instruments, ease creating music, and everyone just seems to be into their own thing. I recently came across this qoute: "I've been through the golden age of … 'till now, and what I always tell artists is keep producing and sharpening your skills," he said. "Always try different sounds and styles and never get caught in the record label talk. Master your sound and business first on your own, and if the labels come you'll be 100% ready. Try to avoid show scammers who make you pay for gigs and run off with your money, and fake label A&Rs who say they're with fake companies just to hear your music and take ideas.” Who said it? Hip hop artist Ques.
Our local songwriters association (SUSWA) meets weekly for what we call "Tune-smithing". If someone has a song they are working on, they bring a dozen or so copies of lyrics to pass around. During the workshop everyone that wants to, shares the new tune they are working on. Listeners make comments either vocally, or on the page, then everyone turns them back into the writer. The writer can either use the feed back to tweak their song, or leave it and call it good. Afterwards we all head down to the open mic, and that's the place that someone can showcase a finished new tune and get some audience feedback.
I usually ask my wife for her feed back and praises, I also like to play the rough copy back a few times on cassette and disc until it sounds right for me.
If I'm writing a song for strictly commercial purposes, I want it to sell itself or sell something else, then feedback can be a very useful tool to reach that goal, and I will seek it out and apply it. Usually playing it for friends who I respect their opinion, or someone from the demographic I'm targeting.
Most of the time I'm not motivated by commerce, I'm strictly in art mode, what materializes is what gets printed, feedback is irrelevant. If it sells, great, but I can't let outside influence dictate or steer my creative process in anyway, or the result will be impure. I will play it for people, sometimes ask what they think, but nothing ever gets changed based on their opinion, I just like to know if it is touching them on a personal level.
Well what I do
First, I play it for a few friends, too see what they think.
Second, I branch out to more
people some well know some not.
But I would ask what they think?
And I get reviews
I would even take it to my local paper or other bands get opinions
Much Love and Light
Richard Spasoff
I belong to a songwriting group here in Nashville that meets every Monday for critiquing each other's songs. I find that helpful. However, one needs to be careful, especially around other songwriters because you will always find someone who thinks his or her idea is better, no matter how good your song is, so I recommend only changing a song if and when you personally think a suggestion is better.
The biggest mistake I observe here in Nashville is songwriters without cuts taking a suggestion if someone has a cut but ignoring suggestions from someone who doesn't. Often, someone with cuts makes a bad suggestion and someone without any cuts makes a good one.
Thus, my only rule of songwriting is, if someone has as many cuts as Bob Dylan or, if someone who has never written a song makes a suggestion, I recommend always using the suggestion if you personally think it makes your song better and never using a suggestion if you don't personally think it makes your song better.
If you don't learn to do this, other writers will shred your songs, because they will always have suggestions, many of which are not the best idea; only you have the total vision and perspective of what you are trying to do with your song and you have to learn to protect your song against often bad suggestions from someone who only casually hears or looks at your lyrics on paper once and really doesn't know very well what you are trying to do.
I too used to participate in organization run songwriter workshops where your material gets analyzed. Sometimes I feel the comments and comparisons are really not appropriate for your intended goal, and the resulting analysis is too technical, and not based on the most important elements of what makes a song work.
In the past few years I have learned to play new material for my teen age (music) students, since they are brutally honest about what is cool or not. Also, it's good to have honest feedback that speaks from genuine reaction to what is heard, not deciphering whether you follow the rules.
try it out at a live gig.....and you will know what is not working....rework it.....then try it again at another gig.....and over the coarse of a few months it starts to grow into what it is going to become....and its time to record it....i guess i should add prior to trying it at a live gig....you work out 4 trac versions and listen to those in your car or where ever...and work those a bit....then teach it to your band mates....and it gets reworked a bit there prior to the insersion into the set list.....
Yeah, this is an interesting topic. Ultimately, we as songwriters have to get up and believe in what we're playing. I think that if the message is real, from the soul/heart, then that's a great start.
Because the arts are so subjective and dependent on factors such as venue, clientele, mood, etc..
For instance - playing acoustic soul stuff at a dive bar craving cover songs that they can sing along to whilst getting plowed is not good. However, being in the artsy districts of some cooler cities will yield more of a welcoming feel.
Garageband.com & acidplanet.com are a couple sites that come to mind immediately for feedback/critiques.
Again the major issue with these is that some kid juiced up on prozac piping ICP isn't going to get that acoustic soul song either and will poo all over it.
A school like Berklee would yield educated, insightful, helpful feedback (for students and workshops). #1, it's a jazz/contemporary school #2, it's in Boston... both with a myriad of experiences and options, etc..
Anyway, music, like a lot of things should be experimented/tested, the limits pushed, and any molds broken. WHY NOT?! We write songs for a reason, let's remember that reason when we hit the stage or studio and do our best to make listeners feel as close to that same vibe as possible, or at least something cool
As long as the mentor, venue, workshop (whatever feedback vehicle) is in the same context (credible and respected and in the same genre/style), then it should be helpful.
This inspired a song feedback group I just created on myspace. Please join and let's get started helping each other.
http://groups.myspace.com/songfeedback
I didn't think I had an approach until I thought about it.
If I am working on a few songs that have a verse, chorus, bridge and possible intro., I then jam with a drummer friend of mine. Out of three to six song ideas, I find out quickly what is working and what feels like work. I then take the recording of this jam, listen to it a day or so later, and fine tune.
After this stage I tend to introduce a bass player, or another neutral instrument to make my final decision. If there is energy in the room, and the dudes are having fun, I then feel I am on the right track. I will then take that recorded jam and start planning for record.
After doing some rough recordings, drum machine-scratch vocals,etc....I attend a few party's and slip them in the sound system. This is where reality sets in. If people seem to like it, or not even notice-this means good. If people start saying things like "what is this &^$*#&*" or who put this ($(^it on!?".....I am usually the first guy to say "I dunno?"
I have used www.garageband.com to provide some very interesting reviews. I have found that this forum is generally musicians, providing some great feedback. I still hold the #1 All-time spot in Experimental Rock for a song titled
"Well Gone Dry"....Yeeee Haaaaa!
Stepping completely outside my safety-zone I decided to enter a few guitar competitions in Buffalo NY,
http://guitarcompetition.org/history.asp
and San Francisco CA.
http://hero.guitarplayer.com/
I used these forums to test may songs. I converted songs into instrumentals "guitar competitions" and watched for the reactions. Well.......I took first place at "The North American Rock Guitar Competition 06" in Buffalo NY.
....And came in second for Guitar Player's "Guitar Hero III competition 07"! Yikes! This was quite extreme, even for me!
Any-who.......
Les is More
Normally I have a pretty good idea what I want to do with a song when i get a worked idea. When it's at a reasonable draft state I normally run it by my girlfriend. She has a great ear and always spots the wavering bits.
I'm of the school that if you make it bland, repetative, and pretty mindless you probably have a top 10 hit on your hands. But who wants to do that I'd rather have some originality, thought, metaphor and layers to a song which probably spells commercial disaster. You have to be true to your ideals. So go listen to some of my stuff at http://www.myspace.com/velvetrazorrocks listen to some songs and tell me if I am spouting nonsense.
Hi Derek,
Thanks for all your emails, interesting and helpful.
I do have a mentor and I trust him, he listens over and over cause he's usually in the same part of the house (my favorite spot for songwriting is at the kitchen table)he is my partner and a fine musician/ piano tech. who is very honest, he knows my music.
i went to one songwriting seminar at chico state in 1975. cant remember a single thing i learned there except to write and re-write. i put my songs into 2 categories. one or the other. if they flow out words and music together...........and i dont struggle with it. its done. i play it at a gig without introduction.
the other category is a melody/music first and partial lyric/music later......or visa versa. some of those songs have spanned 20 years or more. ive written and re-written those based on crowd (big or small) reaction.
i never ask for constructive input.......but when its offered.....i take notes.
what i feel are my best songs...have come from both categories.
I let the song age a little bit and
give it some more listens. Either it has magic or it doesn't. And I am the only one who can judge that. HOWEVER.. I do know that there are individuals who are astute at listening and can either enjoy the song or not on some kind of artistic plateau without their own ego involvement. Listening is 1/2 of music and poetry and lyrics composition. But first the song has to pass my test for magic. If I didn't think my opinion was most important, then there would be no reason to write. acie
I do play a song for close friends, maybe... but...I do songs mainly for myself, and not for making money, so the whole process is different. I do appreciate critique, and when I get it, I sometimes use it, sometimes not. Music for me is a release, a biproduct of who I am and a situation that occurs. Surely the road not to success eh?
I am from that era of the teacher/ Mentor approach. In my songwriting nurturing period I was studying with either Alex deGrassi or Ed Gerhard. I would often perform a composition for them and then get their feedback. Now I feel quite proficient and what I like to do now is let the song evolve on it's own. It seems the more I play a piece some of me gets in there yet some of the songs personallity leads me in that direction. I treat them like children and they do grow and have their own identities..weird but works for me.
I just finished by 7th CD. I start with the usual stuff - get opinions for friends and play the song live.
Then the next step is I make a rough draft CD and a questionnaire. I invite my network of about 40 people consisting of recording artists, fans, producers and a few people not terribly familiar with my music, to listen to the rough draft and complete the questionnaire. About 25 agreed last CD. The questionnaire asks to rate the songs on a scale of 1 - 10, indicate your favorites, suggest was to improve any or all, and as feedback on titles for the songs and CD, etc.
I send them either a physical CD or downloads by YouSendIt and a PDF document. After waiting about 3 - 4 weeks I compile the feedback, use what seems most helpful to refine the songs and decide which will "make" this CD. I started with 15 songs this time and ended up with 11 on my new CD.
Not only did I get some great feedback on the compositions, but I ended up changing the title of the CD and am very happy I did. The new title is Beauty and Fire and will be out April 2009.
I usually play it at an open mike, not just to judge how the audience liked it, but how did it feel playing it live, was it as good as when I wrote it, better or worse?
I'm lucky in that I live with a great musician, my wife Janette Geri,have a couple of other muso writer mates who I can take ideas to, and now, my band The Realistics.
Janette is my executive producer when it comes to my writing, enligtening me to grammar, arrangement and other things that would slip by me. The muso mates are the ones who usually hear my demos and are able to look past a dodgy recording straight to the song. (I believe works in progress, particularly recorded demos, should only be played to your peers and be kept close to the chest.9 times out of 10 Aunty Muriel or Steve @ the Auto Shop will only hear a rough, hurried recording and wont be able to get past this to the song itself. Your peers should be able to differentiate, and if they don't-get some new ones!)My greatest litmus testers at the moment are my band, who I now actually write for, and with our lineup in mind.Ultimately, when debuting a new song live, take a good look around the room at your audience. Watch for feet tapping, rapt attention or conversely a man with a rope.
I PLACE THE SONG ON CD AND THEN I LISTEN TO IT IN MY CAR FOR THREE TO FIVE DAYS. I THEN LET MY COUSIN LISTEN TO IT AND THEN MICHELL LISTEN. AND BY THE END OF THE WEEK IF EVERYBODY AGREES I THEN RECORD IT. BUT I HAVE TO FEEL IT. FEEL IS THE KEY TO A GREAT SONG .
Hello derek,
Wow, what a response to this question.
It is some years since I wrote a song, and a great deal of them have done well.
The latest writing was a guitar instrumental called "Riverbank Ramble", and one of our top guitarists of the 70s and 80s, Peter Posa, asked me while Noelene and I were on tour with him, if he could take my instrumental for himself, it so impressed him.
I wrote it in a couple of days, as I had been looking for a new piece to include on a new album, and even before I'd recorded it, I was receiving positive feedback on it, several even suggesting it would go well as the theme tune for a western movie.
But I have always felt my wife Noelene was, and still is, my best critic, she says how it is, and I accept it. Whether I am writing a song, or doing a guitar piece, or learning someone else's song.
If it does not suit me, she will tell me, and I have possibly had reservations about it myself, anyway.
We just feed off each other, but the ultimate test, is to sing a new song at a concert, and await any comments afterwards.
I soon learn if it is below par, or fantastic, or whatever.
In more recent times, a good guage for us, is the times certain tracks have been downloaded by people from our CD Baby sites, and we get laods of pleasure from that.
Keep up the great work.
Rex Franklin
Our feedback on a new song or music has worked best by just letting the public make a reply via e-mail off the CD. One did you like the lyrics / Two was the beat easy to listen to / Three would you consider buying a single or the whole album / Four would you recommend the album to family and friends. The e-mail link on the CD be it a single or a whole album works best for people love to make comments good or bad. Shelby Out
Since I write children's music I perform it for all different types and groups of children, parents and teachers and look for their reactions, movements, and responses. They are the best critics since they're the ones the music is written for. I can usually tell right away if the music engages them or leaves them feeling disinterested. I also listen to their creative and imaginative input and make changes always keeping it a work in progress.
I've always been too uncomfortable to show a song to anyone before it's finished,recorded and mastered...The reason being is that a lot of people including musicians can have a tendency to compare an unfinished work to finished CDs they own or songs they hear on the radio...The one time I took a chance and showed a demo to a musicain friend, he asked me why it wasn't as loud and punchy like other dance tracks he had heard. I then went to great lengths to explain it wasn't mastered yet but he still didn't get it...You'd be surprised how many pro musicians don't quite understand what professional mastering can do to a song
I don't really ask for opinions. I am my worse critic and I leave it at that. The songs I write are simple. I try not to get to intense on making my songs perfect. My writings depend on how I feel and that is my art. So if Im having difficulty wth a song, I'll just shelf it and get around to it later...
My process is as follows, usually I will write a 24-48 bar melody or riff, either with the daw or the guitar, then reassess the piece over a few listens, if the piece has body and sounds like a viable piece I'll present it to my wife who is a grinder of a critic but has a fabulous ear and if it gets a thumb up I'll return to the studio and keep writing, I'm odd because most of my music is already finished in my head by the time I actually sit down to compose it
I THINK IT DEPENDS ON WHAT TYPE OF SONGWRITER YOU ARE. IF YOU WRITE FOR YOUR AUDIENCE THEN YOU MAY FEEL YOU HAVE TO PLEASE THEM, SO IT WOULD BE SMART TO ASK THEM WHAT THEY THINK IF YOUR ARE NOT YOUR OWN BEST CRITIC. IF YOU ARE A BLEEDER LIKE ME THEN YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO PLEASE YOURSELF IN ORDER TO FILL THAT HOLE YOU HAVE IN YOUR SOUL. IN MY SITUATION IT DEPENDS ON CAPTURING THE MAGIC SOMEWHERE IN EACH SONG I CREATE SO THAT I CAN LISTEN TO IT OVER AND OVER AND NOT GET TIRED OF IT AND THAT THE RECORDING DOES NOT HURT YOUR EARS IN CASE SOMEONE ELSE DOES THE SAME THING. DURING THE PROCESS OF WRITING IF SOMEWHERE DURING THE SONG I DON'T FEEL THE SAME THING I FELT THAT MADE ME WANT TO WRITE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE , I STOP THERE AND GO BACK TO WHERE THE FEELING GOT LOST. IF YOU WRITE IN ORDER TO SELL THEN TARGET YOUR AUDIENCE AND GET ANY KIND OF FEEDBACK YOU NEED TO GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT. IF YOU WRITE BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CHOICE THEN SEEK TO COMFORT YOUR OWN HEART, THIS WILL BE HEARD AN YOU WILL COMFORT THE HEARTS OF OTHERS. AL THE REV.
I no longer ask for help to improve or finish a song except for the arrangement.Sometimes my producer will suggest one less chorus or a different order for the verses. I often write songs that can be performed in different genres so I will take it to a blues jam, then an open mike and then maybe a bluegrass band.Eventually it will find it's own way to be played.
When I write a new song I try to fall in love with it. If I listen it will even tell me its name. After that I enter it in Finale and play it back and listen more. Then off to the gig to try it out with the band. They will go for it, then after the set they make their comments. It can go either way but I believe in them and they are most always right. "That one is hard to play, that one is hard to understand, that one is a great song. Where do you get this stuff?"
As you can see it varies, but mostly I know when I get it right and if necessary I can stick up for it. But I'll have to admit there are a lot of songs sitting in the back files of the computer that just didn't make it but I can't delete them, a parent thing I guess. Don Alberts
I always write down everything that comes to me and start playing until I have what was in my head. Some songs are complete and others I go back to. If I don't capture what's in my head at that moment, It's lost forever. I've never been interested in opions, if those who give them really knew what was best, they'd write their own. I just do my thing and if someone likes it, great. Music's never been a competition for me. There's very few songs I don't like and those are ussually designed by someone to be a hit, They're obviously not from anyones heart.
When I write lyrics I make changes only in an effort to find words that sing better and mean the same thing.
Hey Derek,
Music has always been something very personal to me. Asking someone what they think of my music is like asking them what they think of me... they are inextricably combined. Moreover, if I cared so much about what other people thought, my music would cease to be 'my music' and would then become a tragic attempt at meeting someone else's idea of what is worthy to be called 'good music'... or worse, trying to fit the mold of some executive that hasn't the faintest idea of what artist expression is all about;)
Thanks for askin the great questions!
When I was in Dallas in the '70s, there was a company that rated recordings for record companies using a small audience each connected to electronics similar to a lie detector.
They found that it was useful especially for songs that would normally only win you over after several plays.
That technology could be provided to todays musicians to own at a reasonable price.
If I'm collaborating on a song, for a musical comedy for example, the composer and I will argue, cajole, and harangue each other until we come up with something both of us can live with.
If I'm writing a song by myself, I'm uninterested in feedback until it's finished for me. Then I start playing it for people. If it works, it works. Otherwise, there are more songs to be written.
Writing this now, I'm unable to decide which process I like better.
It may sound arrogant or whatever, but I don't really want feedback for songs anymore... I'm happy to write mostly from intuition and experimentation and create what I like. I honestly don't care if it's perfect, if there even is such a thing, especially in the eyes of anyone else. It is what it is, and I've learned to trust my own perspective and judgment to be very happy with that... When other people do like it as it is, that's terrific, but I believe I would still put out the same albums, regardless. There's a song on my upcoming album that I don't expect to be anyone's favorite... I could probably replace it with something catchier or more straightforward. But it has personal resonance and I think it still fits well on there among the other tracks... so it's an important part of the "album" in the same sense that a photo album depicts different aspects of your life during a particular time. Those are the kinds of albums I like best, that are like "musical photo albums" and have at least some of those kind of tracks, and not just 12 songs that some producer thought would make good singles.
I will always gladly accept and process feedback and criticism from any source, but I never feel an obligation to act upon it. Now, the exception is if I'm writing something with another person, or have a producer involved, then yeah, there may be some very direct feedback and criticism that has to be worked out... In that case I find that whenever there's a clash about something, where one person really likes something but the other wants something different, there's usually a third (or fourth or fifth) option that is better than either of the two previously fought for options.
But the problem with "song feedback" from outside sources is that if one person (no matter who they are or what an "expert" they are) tells you something that they really don't like or that they think could be better about your song, and you change it for the sake of what their particular taste is, you may be changing something that many many other people might have really liked just fine as it was. Even if there's a consensus about something from several people, it still doesn't necessarily mean you should change it. Sometimes the author/artist really does know best about their own work, and maybe only a handful of people will appreciate it, but so what? Some things are meant to be "cult" or have a niche audience.
Here's an anecdote that describes why I'm wary of songwriting workshops and "feedback parties" and such... Polyclitus, it is said, once sculpted two statues at the same time: one in his living room, in public view, and one in his bedroom, which he worked on privately and kept wrapped in a tarpaulin. When visitors came by, they would comment on the public work, saying, "The eyes aren't quite right" or "That thigh is too long," and Polyclitus would incorporate their suggestions. All the while, however, he kept the other statue a secret. Both works were completed at about the same time and were mounted in the city square in Athens. The statue that had been designed by committee was openly mocked and ridiculed. The statue he'd done by himself was immediately proclaimed a transcendental work of art. People asked Polyclitus, "How can one statue be so good and the other so bad?" And Polyclitus answered, "Because I did this one and you did that one."
Derek?
When I write a song, I write what is real mixed with a little imagination. I use keywords to keep me on track of the story line and I always remember THE HOOK OF ANY SONG IS THE KEY TO THE LISTENER. Something catchy, sing song and easy to remember. Not necessarily a cliche' or a slang, something that is clever, that makes sense and makes your listened think and want to be a part of and identify with the story line.
I also write poetry. So I in cooperate a hook line in the poetry to make it a sing song, song and use a clever musical accent, like a bass line or a guitar line.
I use daily news stories, political jargon, sexy innuendo and suggestive phrases to write lyrics that match the musical tracking.
Then its off to the races. To test it all, I find as many teenagers as I can and play it for them. If they like the first three beats, I know I have something worth the world's notice.
As a program director in radio, my only job was to pick hits. If the new song didn't keep my attention for the first three beats, I did not listen any longer so the song was not played.
NeferNefertiti
I have always found that playing my music in front of a group of people tells me a lot. More than anything anyone can say to me, it is what I feel while they listen. If I am embarrassed or unsure about any section I take note. It is a moment of truth. If I am paying attention I will know what I need to change.
I usually sing and play the song for the band and see how they react to the song, completed. If I can see in their faces, that they're already running over their parts on the instruments, or they reach to get their instrument, on the first hearing, I figure, it's a pretty good song for us to perform together, or record. The only other measure, is an audience, for me. If it engages them in an emotional way, it's a good song. If they decide in droves, to get up and go get a hotdog, or make a trip to the restroom, in the middle of a new tune, you need to rework or scrap it.
I don't usually ask anyone directly, what they think about the tune. If they feel the need to tell me, that's fine. My husband seeks advice in the process of writing a song, but I would never do that. That's just not productive for me.
I'm my worst critic. One out of ten ideas of mine get finnished.-I like to leave the idea for a few days before getting serious with it-- most of the time I'll come back to it and say to myself--"what the hell was I thinking??" But every once in a while it'll come together. I love it when a song takes less than hour to write.
I began writing poetry at 9. By the time I was 21, a friend helped me to escape from all the obnoxious arrogant pretentious fame seekers I knew and hade grown up with in New York City. It was then that I wrote my first song...in a Ford Fairlane Convertable heading to California with a friend, now a beloved and famous musician/songwriter. He gave me my first guitar and taught me three songs: Caanan Land, House of the Rizing Sun and one of his originals. I felt so liberated. By and by, I wrote my first song: Love Is the Answer because I was desperate to get away from those family members (drug addicts and thugs), who had so mutilated me that I really wanted to kill them. (An artist must have fuel to create...and transforming my pain and grief became my fuel and lifted me up instead of taking me down.) I thought they didn't deserve to live. But it wasn't up to me. I knew that, but didn't want to fall into the trap and spend the rest of my life in prison. So I turned to the Great Spirit and begged for courage and strength and self control. And whoa!...the Muses arrived and gave me the song.
From then on, the melodies and lyrics followed like rain on a hot summer day in Arizona. I'm 66 yea