Seth Godin on spreading music and selling intimacy
2010-01-25
Reading Seth Godin's new book called Linchpin, I had some lingering questions on behalf of all the musicians I know.
So I asked him. Here are my questions and his answers:
You say, “the winners are the artists who give gifts”, but many artists I know are feeling like the losers. How would you explain your philosophy of the linchpin economy to a musician who's making great music, giving it away online, but getting only apathy in return?
Feeling like a loser is part of being an artist, but I want to challenge the notion of “great music.” Sure, some music that's great is great for the ages and it's okay that's it's not being heard, but so much of what people call great art (whether it's a book or a song or a way of doing customer service) isn't actually great, it's merely “very good.” Very good music is unheard every day, because very good music is not in short supply. There's a huge surplus of it.
I'm not equating “great” with “commercial.” I have no doubt that there's great art that doesn't sell. But most musicians you and I know are TRYING to be commercial, if commercial means successful, heard, lots of stuff sold, lots of people at the concerts. And in the rush to be successful, sometimes great gets pushed out the window. I've sampled hundreds of songs on CDBaby and I can say that almost all of it is very good. And virtually none of it is great, if we define great to mean music I need to buy, to give away, to talk about to everyone I know. Almost none of it changed my life, and that's what great music does.
Great means unsettling. Great means open to criticism. Great means booed off stage. And great music, like a great idea, spreads. Ideas that spread, win, and so the goal today is not to make great music for 1970 or 1990, but great music for today, for a market that's super picky and selfish and has ADD. Great is in the ear of the listener, of course, and the definition is simple: if it spreads, then for this market, it's great.
By definition, Great cannot create widespread apathy.
People often use price as an indicator of quality. Even connoisseurs rate wine higher if told the price is higher. So many artists are averse to sharing their work online for free, because it might be seen as valueless. Since I've heard you argue both sides of this, how do you reconcile it in the case of an artist choosing how to share their work?
This is a conundrum, and probably worth thinking about a bit. Paintings, for example, have been free to experience as long as there have been art galleries. The difference today with music is that there's a mammoth change going on - and it's about control. Music has always been free on the radio (in fact, record companies PAID to get it on the radio). Now, though, every song is on the “radio” all the time, because the radio is Pandora and Limewire and the rest.
So, if the radio is already there, and music is free-er than ever, it's not clear that music is valueless. There's more music being listened to (not just played, but being listened to) than ever before in history, and that listening is proof that people value it. At least they value it enough to spend their time.
Get over the idea that your success is equated with selling the right to listen, or selling control over when people listen. Relinquish the opportunity to make money by controlling who can listen and when. That's gone. It's over. It would be like a bakery selling the right to sniff the fresh bread or a wine maker selling the right to look at the cool label. It's now a public good, something you see as you walk by.
What you can sell, what you better be able to sell, is intimacy. It's interactions in public. Souvenirs. Limited things of value. Experiences. Memories. People will pay for those things, IF: your art is actually great and if you make it possible for them to buy them.
If it's great, let it go. You'll do fine. If it's not great, figure out what great is and do that.
A tall order, but a huge opportunity.
Thanks, Seth!
Hugh MacLeod has many more interesting questions-and-answers about Linchpin, here.
Seth is a badass!
if you dont ..expose the art the music tothe world ..who's the looser ....to me i had cd baby ...but now i sale the right to island def jam just to get more publicity..to the world ..
in time more tham 7 billion fans
will get the music ..i dont think i'm a looser...
luko adjaffi
Great blog..thanks Derek!
Thank you. It seems that so many are concerned about doing what the audience wants instead of presenting to the audience some sort of vision. Sure, many may leave, never come back, boo.... but those that stay are your real fans, and friends. I am often guilty of worrying too much about that as well, but I am trying very hard to stick with my visions. Thanks again.
seth godin is the bomb
Interesting discussion.
What makes a great song?
A great song is one that gets under your skin. It nags at your memory with an unforgettable hook or line. It makes you want to sing and dance.
If one of your songs has this effect on you, it probably has the same effect on twenty other people. No, you have to go find those twenty people to introduce your great song to!
I've got this idea that a truly incredible album needs no promotion because good art promotes itself. I've been striving to created an album that is so good that I only need to give it to one person for millions of people to hear. I've come up short so far, but I am positive it will happen.
I think Seth has hit it on the head. fighting the idea of free music is like standing in the middle of the Santa Monica Freeway during rush hour and trying to get the traffic to go the other way. I believe it's up to each of us as individual artists to find enough resource and belief in ourselves to create the success we desire. As someone said to me years ago, "cream rises to the top." If we're to succeed, we must be cream.
I can attest to at least part of this in as far as the monetary value thing goes. I've played in a few open jam sessions, and I've been playing at the current one for approximately two months now, and I've had significantly more people ask me if I've been playing in a band... and I reckon it has something to do with creating the "intimacy" outlined above. The intimacy sells the sound and sells the feeling to the audience and engages them on a base level. I've even had a couple people offer to come in with their laptop, record directly off the mixer that we use, and make an "Open Jam" benefit CD and use the best tracks to benefit the business whose space we use and perhaps donate the rest to charities like Toys For Tots or overseas relief efforts such as the ones the Haitians are experiencing currently.
It sucks to say it, but monetary success doesn't always equal artistic or popular success. I can imagine that Dave Matthews Band would agree with this, given that they've openly TOLD their listener-base to pirate everything that they like, bootleg every single concert they want, and yet they STILL continue to sell millions of CDs and tour like mad.
Says a lot about the state of the "industry" when bands are doing amazingly well in spite of the fact that they don't necessarily have the numbers to back it up.
Thank You Derek!
Leave it to Seth to put social media in the right perspective along with the whole artistic endeavor. What a worthwhile reminder and challenge: make great art, then give it away. The test of it's greatness will be your ability to monetize in other ways. Along with MacLeod's advice this boils down, for me, to: don't forget that the reason you work your day job is to make and share great art. When I can keep that in perspective, I stay inspired.
So stealing music is now completely fine. I can sell t shirts and memories. What bs.
Hey Derek,
Great questions and equally great responses from Seth. Thanks so much for sharing. Making "Great" music is indeed the elusive rabbit to keep chasing, but the only one worth going after for me.
Cheers,
Andrew
The last part says it all:
Godin doesn't say anything helpful here. Plenty of shitty, mediocre, good, and very good music sells like crazy. "...what you better be able to sell, is intimacy." That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
Once I give my music away, why should I care what happens or who's listening or what monetary value it might have. Music is an expression of the soul, once you sell it it becomes jaded. Honestly, I am conflicted about even claiming authorship for something only comming through me, that is not of me. People been selling thier souls for years.....how much is yours worth?
Derek, this discussion is central to the various debates raging inside my head as I realign myself with where my music is now. And I ask myself, is it worth it to even put out just "very good". In my case, it seems to be all I have. But I think great may come some day, I do keep shooting for it! Thanks for the superior thought and style that goes into all your writings. scott aka songmon
I have no reason to be listened to. I am not a successful musician who has accomplished anything. But I will make two observations which I think are true.
1. Free always creates apathy. We value what we sacrifice for.
2. Selling intimacy is called prostitution.
Very thought provoking.
great music is like a great orgasm,
it make everything feel to beyond pleasure.
"Great means booed off stage."
it that case I AM THE GREATEST!!!!!!!!
my niece created intimacy until the police arrested her for prostitution.
Thanks Derek !
That's actually what I was asking myself since I've offered my solo album as free download on my website. I believe I'll see the true result of that when I'll start touring and selling the physical, limited edition of the album. I've also offered to pre-order the album by paying what the buyer wanted, I've been surprised to sell some for over 50$ !
This reminds me of an old quote : Give and you'll receive
Seth says: "Very good music is unheard every day, because very good music is not in short supply."
Me: What is in short supply is silence.
People who know I'm a composer wonder why I'm not listening to music all the time; the truth is that I prefer silence to mediocre or even "very good" music.
I do, however, seek out new sonic experiences.
Hey Derek, hope you enjoyed your time in Brazil. next time we will meet.
Now, on the subject, do you know about artistshare.com ? They are selling intimacy.
Best, Nelson
Yep! Great company. -- Derek
Thanks a million Derek for asking him those questions!
I'm gonna meditate on "what you better be able to sell, is intimacy".
Re: great music, I wonder does Seth think 'Remarkable = Great' as he talks of being remarkable in other books.
Now I'm gonna figure out what great is and do that.
"Great" is an opinion. One persons "great" is anothers "very good" and the other way too. But in the end, it doesn't matter, because we ultimately do it for ourselves. Good stuff, er, great stuff. Thanks Derek.
Absolutely. All the paradigms have changed and now is the greatest time for artists to allow themselves the freedom to widen their vision of who they are and what they REALLY have to say.
Between Seth Godin, Hugh MacLeod, and you Derek, independent artists have no more excuses to claim ignorance when it comes to claiming ones rightful place in the arts or wherever they desire to be in life.
Essentially, we must first DEFINE for ourselves: Who we are; What our voice is; Speak in that voice; be sincere; create moments (both in our recordings and live performances)that touch people intimately. Remember it is not ALL about me and MY music anymore.
I'd also love to hear what Seth recommends to musicians who are attempting to develop and maintain intimacy by first discovering their fans needs and then delivering music and experiences that address those needs or preferences - And still maintain a true sense of artistry.
In the age old paradox of generating livelihood via creative acts - how does one make "great" art if one is perpetually taking and analyzing the tribe's temperature prior to creating. This strategy has musicians trading in one bank of gatekeepers (record labels, radio program directors, internal and external critics. This new paradigm flies in the face of Hugh MacLeod's "Ignore Everybody" philosophy. The answer seems to be found by wrestling with a circuitous conundrum rather than skating on a creativity continuum.
Respectfully,
Pam Mark Hall
Seth "gets" it! Exactly!! Thanks Derek again for your insights and leadership. Getting the right answers is all about asking the right questions!
Who IS this guy?
"Get over the idea that your success is equated with selling the right to listen, or selling control over when people listen. Relinquish the opportunity to make money by controlling who can listen and when. That's gone. It's over. It would be like a bakery selling the right to sniff the fresh bread or a wine maker selling the right to look at the cool label. It's now a public good, something you see as you walk by."
Um, WHAT? No it isn't. It isn't even REMOTELY like that. That has to me the most misinformed thing I've ever ever heard anyone say. It is precisely this lack of business acumen that is killing music; the creator throwing up his hands and surrendering sovereignty. And then suggesting that doing so should be the new template for everyone.
You wanna create something and give it away, fine. This is America. You have the right to do that. But to suggest that I should is ignorant and presumtuos. Bread is FOOD, not a fragrance. Its value is in being EATEN, not sniffed. You can smell my bread, but if come into the bakery and try to EAT it without paying for it, I will come after you.
Dimsooo, I think this brings us to the difference between commercial and "indie" artists.
Yes, plenty of rubbish, good and very good music sells but very few of them stick around for a long time. That's what "great" music does, simply because it speaks to you/a group of people more intimately than the others that sold. Anyway, no one wants to be mediocre.
I couldn't agree with Mr Godin; music speaks to me in no way words can.
Thanks for sharing Derek.
@Chris Nelson: good definition!
@Steve Fawcett: I wonder which post you were replying to, since your comment couldn't be less connected to what Seth or Derek is saying.
I write very good music. I probably write very good business books.
Ouch.
I've been holding back out of fear; fear of being booed off the virtual stage.
My goal for this year is to write some great music, or at least, kick off the fear and aim for 'great' instead of aiming for 'very good'
And the book I'm writing, right now: aiming for 'great' and if it blows up in my face, so be it.
Someone said something about the danger being not that we aim too high and miss, but that we aim too low, and don't miss.
"There's more music being listened to (not just played, but being listened to) than ever before in history, and that listening is proof that people value it." How do you know? What's this based on? There's more music available through more sources than every before - logic would dictate just the opposite it true.
Great music is, and always has been, great because it connects with the listener. The idea of intimacy isn't new at all.
Create music that speaks to your own heart first. The world takes it from there.
...
exactly !!!
I love hearing from you Derek. Your thoughts are so inspiring and right on the money for the artists of today.
I like what Seth has to say too. "something you see as you walk by" is a very visual statement about people's access to music today. It does have to be great to make an impression.
Bravo to you both!
Derek, Good blog - first time I've felt led to respond. Seth says, "What you can sell, what you better be able to sell, is intimacy. It's interactions in public. Souvenirs. Limited things of value. Experiences. Memories. People will pay for those things, IF: your art is actually great and if you make it possible for them to buy them." I agree - at least in general terms - with this statement; we can all wish it wasn't so, but that doesn't and won't change the way it is. I think the hard thing given this set of circumstances, is figuring out what we can offer beyond the music to those who would buy - especially when people already have closets full of hat and tees. Any ideas out there?
Hey there Derek,
All of this reminds me of your discussion of Moby's early techno music. Though his music was not earth-shattering, he hustled by hiring the hottest, hardest working marketing minds to get people to VERY memorable shows instead of putting up bills in the neighborhood.
Sometimes the music doesn't need to be great, it's the shared experience or "intimacy" you refer to which people value more. I can't count on all my fingers and toes the amount of really talented musicians I've seen who have CDs for sale at the show and seem to be following the correct script for music success, but are a total bore (or even draining to listen to) on stage between songs which are pretty decent.
If some of these musicians just had the stage presence to make everyone feel as though they were part of a special group, a special moment, "all you have is now and our music right now" they'd be much more successful with ever growing audiences who want to feel that same special, ephemeral feeling again and again each time one of their tracks play.
It's a simple shame many bands instead awkwardly make chitter chatter, mumble between sets, then thank the audience afterwards. What are you thanking them for?!
There is only 2 kinds of music, good and bad. Everyone has a slightly different view of what is good. What Mr. Godin thinks is GREAT music may be nothing but a pile of elephant dung to someone else.The music business is in the shape it is in because the people who have the power to expose a piece of music to millions of people have forgotten that it is all about the song, not fashion, not how much autotune is on the lead vocal, not being a hipster, and certainly not about how loud the track is. IMHO YMMV
Seth says "the goal today is not to make great music for 1970 or 1990, but great music for today, for a market that's super picky and selfish and has ADD"
When you start trying to figure out how to make music for a market you lose sight of what makes your own art stand out. Just make great music that is your own - stay original.
My first responses have to do with Seth's mention of ADD. In my lifelong career as a musician I have often ajusted the lengths of phrases when teaching children in inner city schools. And there are pieces of World music I have written that are deliberately short repetitious patterns, and in fact, people still tell me some of those are so catchy that years later they still sing them. However the teachers and principals of the private schools objected to simple repetitious melodies for their students, arguing that the young brains deserve the challange of a longer phrase to develop their memories. And my own parents, of the generation that adored Frank Sinatra melodies, have often given me negative feedback when a composition was repetitive rather than developed as a true noteworthy melody. So I have looked at both sides, as well as the ADD factor, in opening my creativity to serve whoever I happen to be working for at a given time.
One of the other clues to our ADD culture comes to me as feedback when I submit tunes on the Taxi A&R site. So often the critiques for any piece that is "trying to be commercial" express the impatience of the listener to get to the hook. It isn't like you have any time for foreplay like in the period of Cole Porter or Gershwin. Thus a craftsperson these days has to be immediately BRIEF rather than POETIC. It is an actual values difference.
On the topic of what is GREAT I would say that originality, creativity , and a demonstrated capacity to develop an idea rather than just repeat it are worthy goals for any artist, even in an ADD culture.
I guess the only way to make a living in music is to write a book---------I wonder if Seth is giving away his book for free.....
As always, just what I needed to read next. Fellow artists and producers and I have been talking about the need to simply "focus on making amazing music that moves people in some way, then let the chips fall where they may."
That doesn't mean never share your work or engage your fans, it just means that the music itself should engage people such that they do most of the spreading for you.
Of course he's not!
I agree with this to some extent. Yes, there is great music out there; but, what it really comes down to is the fact that music is very personal and it should be. That's what makes it different. What sounds the same to me may be completely different to another person. I just saw an artist in Chicago this weekend named Kevin Mileski (sp??). He was opening for three bands and he was solo. Of everything in the night, that single honest performance hit me harder than the loudest most unique band. He was a great player, but he PERSONALLY made an impact. Because of that, he sold more CD's than the other bands and stayed the whole night. It's the same for all art: it's personal.
Thanks, lots to think about here. Very timely.
In the last couple of days I've been experiencing somewhat of a viral explosion with my album on music blogs and file sharing sites, etc. It's both awesome to witness - presumably it means people are touched enough by my music to share it - and it's also disconcerting since I'm not really seeing any influx of sales... and I still have to pay off studio costs!
I will use your article to ruminate on how I can feel comfortable sharing the music freely knowing I owe a big ol' chunk o cash to visa, and come up with an alternative way to generate income to cover costs.
Incidentally, one thing I did while I was recording was to ask friends and fans to "sponsor" the album, not selling pre-orders per say, but rather requesting people contribute $25, $50, $100 to $500+ (one person gave me $1000, no strings) just to make sure the record got made.
“Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives.” William A. Foster
I have faith that if quality is the driving force for any artist that they will benefit greatly. An artist must be able to be honest about the real steps that must be taken to achieve greatness.
You asked 2 very powerful questions. Seth gave 2 powerful responses, however I don't feel they were right on par with what is happening today.
Music doesn't need to be great it needs to find a niche. You need to find the fans who are listening to the music you make. This has never been easier and harder. Once you find these people and they are accepting you can build a "tribe" around them - including music sales, memberships, merch, packages, influence, affiliate products are more. You need to act like a business, most musicians would rather not.
For part 2 - price is equal to the value that you give the person. If you are average you can expect average monetary returns. If you are great you can command great ROI. Invest in your music and market the hell out of it to the people that want it.
Derek,
I am PASSIONATELY outraged... and will address ONE by ONE.. First the quote and then my response.... thank you for sharing my voice...
"Feeling like a loser is part of being an artist..."
I am not sure where this philosophy is derived, unless what was meant by this statement is that unfortunately many artists are unappreciated?
"...Very good music is unheard every day, because very good music is not in short supply. There's a huge surplus of it..."
Therefore it is important that an artist understands how important the BUSINESS end is in his achieving his "success". An artist knows his talent and that is where his focus should be...get a business person to do what his/her expertise is... that is to be sure that artist STANDS out... amongst the others...
"...Great means unsettling. Great means open to criticism. Great means booed off stage. And great music, like great a idea, spreads. Ideas that spread, win, and so the goal today is not to make great music for 1970 or 1990, but great music for today, for a market that's super picky and selfish and has ADD. Great is in the ear of the listener, of course, and the definition is simple: if it spreads, then for this market, it's great..."
"GREAT" does not just happen... "GREAT" needs marketing too....!
"...People often use price as an indicator of quality. Even connoisseurs rate wine higher if told the price is higher..."
Actually, it is a well known fact amongst wine connoisseurs that a "GREAT" wine connoisseur can find a "GREAT" bottle of wine that might indeed be one of the least expensive. Those who are NOT true wine connoisseurs choose by price alone. (haha...I will admitt I fall into that category...not my expertise!)
"...So many artists are averse to sharing their work online for free, because it might be seen as valueless..."
Not "valueless" ... the point is revenue to make a living!
"...This is a conundrum, and probably worth thinking about a bit. Paintings, for example, have been free to experience as long as there have been art galleries..."
Paintings are often donated by wealthy individuals with collections they want to share,however art is also purchased...in addition, musuems charge admission..so viewing is NOT free. The Gugenheim....etc...
"...The difference today with music is that there's a mammoth change going on - and it's about control. Music has always been free on the radio..."
Free to the end-user, the listener...but very expensive for the ADVERTISERS supporting the radio stations.
"...It would be like a bakery selling the right to sniff the fresh bread or a wine maker selling the right to look at the cool label..."
AHHHhh.... but is the fresh bread free to EAT? Is the wine free to DRINK? ....the bakery along with the free sniff...gives samples.. and wine tasting for sampling wines... see the connect???
"...If it's great, let it go. You'll do fine..."
Nothing in life just happens..."JUST DO IT" (NIKE?)... means get out there and DO IT! Sitting around thinking your great doesn't make it HAPPEN.
~rhonda
Good to see this debate is showing no sign of ending ;) Both Cliff Rubin and Gary McCallister make fine points though. There's a lot of talk about how the era of millionaire pop stars was just a blip in the grand scheme of things and that we're just unlucky to have grown up believing all it took was talent and a bit of luck to be a part of it.
In the end if we want to earn some money from our art we have to put it out there and find those that value it enough to pay a price for being part of the whole experience.
Should be interesting if nothing else, right? Good luck to all in your endeavours.
I think this was a great commentary and needed to be heard. So many artists are now having their music pirated, or exchanged for free and there are major concerns. However, I think when you are an Indie artist, the more exposure the better. Unfortunately major labels dish out a lot of loot on marketing and want to receive a return on their efforts. I think because of today's music market and the computer based age, the music does not have the lock and key tight grip on whose hands it actually gets in like years past. This has in turn made it so much better for the Indie musician. Now, we can really say, the sky is the limit, and there is no one way to musical success anymore.
Absolutely excellent questions for Seth, Derek! Thanks so much for asking him.
Maybe he should have defined intimate... for the purposed of answering your quesiton.
http://www.dictionary.net/intimate
So where do artists relearn how to be intimate with audiences? (I think we're all born with it naturally and then forget it along the way.)
And is Seth taking into account that audiences love to SEE big shows? Can a show with 50,000 people still be intimate?
Does Seth understand that artists like Lady Gaga, will always have audiences? Music, fashion, sex, politics and personal growth will always be intertwined.
I have played in a lot of bands, in a lot of venues. Intimacy is awesome, but it's not the only thing audiences are looking for.
Does Seth take into account what turning it up to 11 feels like?
Just wondering...
Through out history most great art was not appreciated until some time after the artists died. Chance and commercialism abilities brought almost instant fame and reward to some. It didn't really matter much whether it was fair, good or superlative.
Nothing really has changed.
If you are worried about money or fame you're in the wrong business.
Island Frank
"...Selling intimacy is called prostitution."
You should keep that in mind then the next time you experience an amazing performance in a film where the actor really speaks to you... they just sold you intimacy alongside a million others. How did they sell you intimacy without actual intimacy? Answer that and you have the secret to what Seth is saying.
Seth is approaching this from a real world stance, assuming the "industry" will never get a handle on the concept of free music. Those days of access exclusively through a retailer are over and you can either pine away in obscurity or deal with the new reality and get on with it and get it out there. Maybe Seth doesn't have the right solution for you, but you can only deny the truth of what he is saying to your own folly.
I would add to Seth's ideas (I'm not famous either, so no one has to listen to me for that matter) that an artist shouldn't assume anything about their audience. Musicians I know get so hung up on making something marketable, but marketable to whom? They start out with a (likely) false assumption about what people want from them instead of making something amazing and finding the people who jive. It always ends up sounding to me half-assed and insincere.
Very well-put, Jeremy! Thank you. -- Derek
This is awesome!!! The art gallery makes all the money and the artist gets the recognition. The radio station makes all the advertising money and the artist gets the recognition. This is right on.... Its time for musicians to become business minded. We only suffer for our art because someone else knows how to make money on us.
Well, maybe the real message is make music because you have to, rather than get on an on line forum and complain. Maybe. Ooops! Gotta run, haven't quite figured out a bridge to that new song...
"..no one asked Van Gogh to paint A Starry Night again, man.."
(Joni Mitchell during the recording of Miles Of Aisles after fans kept shouting up their fav songs for her to play-1987)
This is a well needed conversation on the "value" of art. If you are blessed with the ability to live the life you love while creating, you owe it yourself and your fans to nuture it, and to allow your greatness to be discovered. That takes intention, focus and energy.
This interview is just silly. Great is not empirical. Just do what's great? There are as many ways into a listener's heart as there are artists making music. Find yours. Not even Seth can provide a formula, even though that seems to be his bag. His blog even seems to be losing its edge for me.
I personally am not inclined to dedicate my life to acquiring "experiences and intimacy" with recording artists. I'd pay for a recording before I'd pay for those things. I think Derek's piece about the new bull's eye is more valid. Just delete this one.
Thanks for sharing and so very true. No one every said that making art let alone great art would guarantee money or success. I love the idea of selling intimacy and I would agree that assess in seats make fans and the only way to build a true loyal following is to make a personal connection with each one. My problem has always been staying in touch with people once I make that contact.
D
Your questions are right on.
I love that this guy is POSITIVE
He is calm and excited at the same time!
love j and n
I agree wholeheartedly. Every sale I sell makes me feel my music is worthy for sale. Intimacy and playing out for people helps them to love you and keep on coming back and buying product. I feel good with every sale, I feel good writing and making the music. In my book, everyone wins and I have a day job which helps so I'm not starving. The object is to keep getting better at your craft so you will be able to sell your product.
Good article.
Kim Yarson
great isn't usually great at the time...listen to a bbc radio 2 show called pick of the pops - most of that is garbage, with the odd gem, that surprises you...great doesn't exist until time has passed and things have matured. honest is what is called for...then that surpasses time and maybe becomes great... again derek, thanks.
This is a great talk and great info. I wish more people understood that there is a difference between good and great. I have had several conversations recently with people about the difference between music as entertainment and music as art. I was actually blown away by the amount of people who didn't know the difference. Hopefully more people will catch on to this! Thanks for everything Derek!
I'm totally not on board with this "great" thing. I know many musicians and we work incredibly hard to get that "very good music" up on CD Baby. We pour our hearts and souls into it. I think aiming for "great" is way too much pressure to put on any of us. Our job as artists is to produce the best we have, the most honest thing we've got in us, whatever it may be. Whether it's considered by pthers to be groundbreaking or "bad" or "good" or "great" is completely beside the point.
The Beatles couldnt get signed. Who defines great? What is great music? Clive Gregson once said to me, "dont worry about the Music business, worry about your own business"..if it comes it comes!! If my music isnt "great" as Godin states, then it is what it is, and I wont be selling "part of me", intimacy, to sell a few albums, neither will I be giving music away.
The music industry decides who's next, not you or me.
One of my great musical awakenings was realising talent counted as nothing, im a musician, not a marketing guru. Im happy to make and produce music, im not seeking for the next trick to get myself heard, or give myself a head start over the rest!
Maybe ive missed the point. But should'nt Seth be giving his book away instead of putting it up on amazon for 17 bucks ???!!!
I think his point is that he gives away everything else: his daily(!) articles on his blog, his time spent emailing and giving advice in interviews like this. That's his ”sniff the fresh bread”. But his once-a-year book is the only thing he sells. (And corporate cpeeches, of course.) -- Derek
Now we are dealing in a world and marketplace that is essentially virtual and nebulous. Who is to say what's GREAT and what's VERY GOOD? I can't necessarily disagree with Seth but we as musicians work very hard to create our art and the bottom line is who knows what's the final answer in knowing what the public actually wants anymore or what parameters they use to judge good or great content.
totally enjoyed the article. thanks Derek. i also enjoy reading the feedback! elliott
We all struggle with the opinions others have of us. When all is said and done... or played and sung - it's God's opinion of us, which alone has any ultimate significance.
Great lyrics and melody last a long, long time. But the Word of the Lord endures forever.
Hi Derek,
You write and offer up a lot of advice, but, you miss a group of people, myself included, who don't sing. I do instrumental music. How about something geared for artists like myself? What does it take to be the next Tangerine Dream or James Horner or John Williams? What advice can you give to those of us who want to break into soundtrack work for films, television, or even video games? And, please, don't say something like join Taxi or a similar service. Those haven't helped. I did get a few placements through Pump Audio. But, what else can I do on a very limited budget? How about something for those of us in that position?
Many thanks!
Rob
Ever since I started sharing advice for marketing music, I've had people say, “Yes but that doesn't count for me... because I do children's music.” or “... because I do jazz.” or “... because I don't play live.” or “... because we don't have a singer.” or “... because we are not American.”
It's up to each of us to adapt any advice given for our own personal situation. The fundamentals still apply. -- Derek
Derek -- I read Seth's Blog as he releases a new post.
Nobody could share Seth's philosophy and the music industry connection but YOU.
Thank you and continue to be a thought leader for music, brother.
peace-
seanrox
I have a different philosophy...
I'm in a quest to find those who think my music IS GREAT... I have to be the Pied-Piper of my own sound. I'm finding lots of people think my music is Great... Everyone else has not heard it yet or simply thinks someone elses music is great....
It's all good.
One thing I've learned over the years about "free" is if you sell someone a car for $50 bucks they will love you... Give it to them and it will stay in your driveway forever.
In light of the dialog, here's a sequence of four quotes from Mozart's letters to his father, the last three specifically about his "Haffner" symphony:
"Believe me when I say that I do not like to be idle but to work." --W.A. Mozart, May 6, 1781.
"Well, I am up to my eyes in work, and now you ask me to write a new symphony! How on earth can I do so?" [...] "You may rely on having something from me by every post. I shall work as fast as possible and, as far as haste permits, I shall turn out good work." --W.A. Mozart, July 20, 1782.
"You see that my intentions are good, only what one cannot do one cannot! I am really unable to scribble off inferior stuff. So I cannot send you the whole symphony until next post-day." --W.A. Mozart, July 31, 1782.
"My new Haffner symphony has positively amazed me, for I had forgotten every single note of it. It must surely produce a good effect." --W.A. Mozart, February 15, 1783.
Finding a happy balance between giving and receiving is the lesson that we need to learn.
In any endeavor in life if you add enough value to what you give I believe that you will receive in kind.
Thanks for asking those questions. I actually hadn't even seen the book was out yet and I will definitely have to get it. I am also sending this post to all of my musician friends that are stuck on their music not being heard. Thanks Derek.
Great (!) discussion, as usual.
To me, great is the knowledge or intuitive sense that what you've done or what you've created is:
a) truly inspired: from a dream, personal experience, conceived in innocence
b) unquestionably reaches somewhere beyond what has gone before a.k.a. totally original
c) brings a complete stranger to experience raw emotion
d) is something that can be repeated over and over and continues to enrich with no end in sight
e) separates itself out in a good way from anything you've ever done
f) requires 'very good' for proper comparison
and elevation
g) is a gift to be personally acknowledged, nurtured, and not kept a secret regardless of not-so-great reaction from not-so-great others
h) an important reason to live, and something to strive for in all things
Hmmm...not one mention about the fact that "God" "owns" the music and you only have a little window where you can imagine yourself to be so important that you think the gift you were given allows you to do something you think is "yours"...and then to have everyone arguing about how to "sell" this thing you never owned from the start...yes let's all become "good businessmen"...that's just what the world needs...a large group of people trying to sell themselves to each other. Its' like buying land...how far down does it go?...can you sue someone in China for infringement of your plot of dirt?...hmm.
Seth's distinction between great music and very good music is a very good point!
Wow. The questions you asked were VERY insightful, Derek, and the answers made me feel very good about a way that I'm creating to market my husband's music locally.
My husband is a classical flutist, but unfortunately, it's hard to get much of an audience for a small flute recital.
So I'm putting together a free-to-the-public costumed piece combining my storytelling and Lenny's flute playing to attract a larger audience and (hopefully) create a sense of intimacy and involvement with the audience.
Rather than the word "intimacy," I used the word "magic" with Lenny. I feel that what he does is "magic," and people like being able take home a little bit of that magic to remind them of the experience and to share with others. That's how I coaxed him into creating his first two cd's (okay, I didn't have to coax very hard!) and that's how I'm getting him into pointy ears for this production.
There really is a logic that points out that the only beings who would have been playing J.S.Bach on a modern concert flute (particularly a square-holed concert flute!) are elves and fairies who (theoretically) would have had all of the space/time continuum in which to shop for the best.
So if it takes costuming and glitz to get the attention of kids and their parents to listen to great classical flute music; cool. I'll have fun dressing up and telling stories, Lenny'll have fun introducing kids to great music and I do believe we'll sell more cd's than we would have by purchasing print ads or performing in a church.
Seems like less of a gamble than just "hoping" someone will invite Lenny to perform! I DO believe this will become an annual event and will generate more free advertising for Lenny's music than anything else we could do.
Over all, I like what Seth is saying in this instance. I take it as "sell what can be sold, give what can only be given.'
However, I find that his analogy of "It would be like a bakery selling the right to sniff the fresh bread or a wine maker selling the right to look at the cool label" is a bit loose. In music commerce, these would be more like offering for free a 30-second audio or video teaser of a song to attract the consumer who would eventually buy the work(s).
Still, an eye-opening piece.
Im at a loss what to think about this article, has selling music become about "tricks" And how to implement them??
And now we are all losers, awash in a sea on non great mediocracy!
Thankyou Mr Godin, but I dont subscribe to this viewpoint regardless of how it was meant or implied. I will however gladly take reciept of your book should you give it away free, in exchange for one of my albums.
Peace.
Peter
Hi Derek!
Thanks for shareing this.
I agree with Seth.
GREAT music walks by itlsef when it gets into our feelings making a significant change in our lifes when we hear that song. IT IS TRUE!
On the other hand, MUSIC INDUSTRY fabricates mediocre idols from nothing and do more money selling MERCHANDISING and gosips than the songs by itself!
Seth is right. Enrique.
"Great means unsettling. Great means open to criticism. Great means booed off stage."
That is one of the most childish and shallow definitions of "great" I have ever heard or read. And it is a cop out because it applies to one case in a million.
Challenge us with truth in the future.
Much of what he talked about is that the live performance is now the key for making a profit from selling your music. Selling an experience that the listener can't get from the CD or the download. As far as his take that Great Music is critized or unsettling, is Lady GaGa great? Why? Take away the costumed appearance, the weird look of the video, whatever she does on stage and just play the song, would it still be unsettling?
Great music (or art) is an epiphany that reaches deep into the soul and turns the listener into a prophet who must share that epiphany with everyone they come across.
Great article. This comment: http://sivers.org/seth-godin#comment-20013 hit home. Great stuff! Anyone want a "free download"!?!?!
Thanks for the great article Derek.
I'm not a musician but I think this article applies to a much broader audience than just musicians.
Making something great IS a tall order and I'd love it to just click in my head one day. But for now I'll keep plugging away, learning as much as I can, helping people as much as I can and enjoying what I'm doing as much as I can.
Thanks again for the great article.
Chad
I don't think one can just give it up like that. Respect to Seth but his philosophy seems more like an opinion to me. "Great" music or art is an individual thing and one cannot decide at the time of "conception" whether or not the result is 'great' BUT it can be great fun/experience in the making for those involved and this is where the intimacy or atmosphere for great is created. Many people agree that the tingling feeling one gets on the back of the neck is shared by more than just one person.(one example for me is in 'River Deep Mountain High' after Tina sings: "it gets deeper baby")
That feeling is also something to strive for but the secret is still out there. If you do that, and it's rare, then commercial success will be yours ultimately because of the subsequent demand!
A very tall order but worth the craic! It all depends........!!!!
Personal I man do a lot in music, art and culture.I would have do well getting some money, but my work is not about the money. It`s exposing the culture without any borders and limit. If money should have come, one day it will come. I am working in the order of JAH, spreading positive vibes to the world. If someone find that what I am doing is great, help me.
One love Nuff respect to all the people of the universe.
H.W.Brown
Great is whatever is your inspired creation. It is not God sent, critic approved,or public accepted. It is not what got you laid or inflated your ego. If your creation is your contentment then it is worth the effort. All the rest is gravy.Loosen up.
I believe itimacy is how you connect with people, but I also look at what your message is and what you are trying to say. So giving you music away is the best way for people connect with you! Most importantly I believe if you are in it just for money. You last very long.
I think if you try to write and create music that will be successful ie make money, appeal to the masses etc, it's likely to be mediocre. If you produce what you love and then find the market that agrees with you, it will probably work better. Bill Evans, the great jazz pianist, said in one of my favorite interviews, "In the long run, we must recognize what we do as art. Don't chase styles, artists or even audiences. Play what you love to play and find the audience that will agree with you and support you"
Very interesting perspective... and a little sobering, too. As I'm writing this comment, I'm listening to Eiffel 65 for free on Youtube, and I probably wouldn't ever pay for their music, but if they ever were in Columbus and needed a couch to crash on, they'd have one: so all they need to do is get fans like me in every city, and they'll never starve.
I've had the experience a few times of a fan coming up to me after a gig to buy a cd that they had already downloaded. Why would they do that when they already have the music for free? Because it's in a nice package? they feel guilty? they loved the show and they want to give something back?
I don't know. but I don't think musicians have only the choice of either chasing every illegal downloading site or giving everything away for free.
-as for very good vs. great music, that's in the ear of the listener.
Great article. More was said in this one than in most of the others I have read. Keep up the GREAT work.
It seems that, as a culture, the only opinions that count are those of people with lots and lots of money.
This post simply reinforces that viewpoint, as did last week's Supreme Court ruling about campaign finance.
What here had anything to do with money? Being great doesn't cost any money. -- Derek
It's really is this simple ...
POPULARITY DRIVES SALES
In A&R, my bosses who make the decisions look for 2 things: Great songs (of the kind Seth describes) & popularity of the artist (by buzz, attendance at shows & radio success). While sales is a factor, it's getting to be less & less so. If it fits 1 & 2, they can sell it.
That absolutely will not happen if you try to keep your music in a closet, refuse to let go, insist on this or that price ... just let it out to the world & see if the cosmos rewards you!
On the artist side, I've been letting folks stream all my music for quite a while, but I think I am just going to find a site that will let them download the mp3s for free too ... Give it away. If the songs & show rise to the occasion & folks start sharing, telling their friends, coming to shows, getting radio play, then that's the time good things will happen. If not, it's my job to go back and create a great song, great performance & great show until it does. I have no doubt that I will.
A lot of my artist friends who are touring & making a living at it report that they notice when they give their music away, that the fans reward them by buying it anyway (sometimes at even more than the asking price), buy lots more merch & the attendance at their live shows also goes up. I've also seen bands that don't set prices on CDs at live shows & just take the "pay us what it's worth to you" approach have a lot of success
A wise person recently said to me: "It's important to ignore the noise."
I find the debate over "Very Good" and "Great" art to be interesting.
Once upon a time someone told me that "Great art creates great emotion." Unfortunately, the emotion that some art touted as great creates in me is an urge to throw up.
For me, art is that which elevates the ordinary to the extraordinary. Every so often I bake a loaf of bread or an apple tart which--for me--rises above the ordinary almost into the definition of art. That's what keeps me at it.
So your music is "only" very good and millions aren't clamouring to buy it. Oh, boo-hoo. Did you expect that your first cd would be a best seller right from the get-go? Have the honesty and integrety to create and continue to create the best product you can--that makes you feel good about yourself--and you will find your efforts paying off. Each live gig you perform will be an advertisement both for your live music and your canned music. If giving some of your music away for "free" attracts people to your gigs, then you've received value for your effort. The more people you can attract to your gigs, the bigger the venues which will be interested in having you perform.
Maybe there's something to the notion of not being too artistic to be able to manage your own career. At the very least, seek out kindred spirits who DO find your music worthy of promotion. If "striving for intimacy" with your audience strikes you as too much like prostitution, well, find yourself a good pimp, uh, agent.
Or shut up and stop bitching.
wow -- i have read many of your postings about books, intuits in the biz, etc -- which are all continually awesome by the way ;) -- but that simple, succinct opinion by Seth was revelatory. It somehow took a weight off my back and realized that we are all in this together. there may not be as much bread to spread around these days in the music world, but keeping the focus on greatness and intimacy has been stuck in my mind all day! Great stuff!
Seth always has a good message. Thanks for more good tools to add to the pile. Great resources are great. Inspire the world by being the true visionary you can be, value what you can't see or touch and give it away.
Best regards,
Hey D, come to this festival if your in the NW in June.
http://consciousculturefestival.com
Using his own line of thought, Seth Godin should give his books away for free.
On the other hand, I think everything Seth Godin says is good but not great so, alas, I cannot understand how he makes money.
Unlike Derek, which gives fine advice, mr. Godin is a fine BS artist.
His wisdom is just a rehash of the fads of our time («free», «intimacy», etc). And some tautologies for good measure. «Great is great», etc.
Hundreds of such trend-setters of the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s seem utterly ridiculous now (and where ridiculous even then, in hindsight).
Better listen to someone who MADE something and succeeded (like Seth, or Eno, or Jobs, or Picasso) than to someone who just sells advice to anyone who will listen.
Musicians would do better to stop listening to these kind of marketing gurus and start deciding for themselves what the music industry should be. This idea of selling intimacy (in the form of tshirts and other merch?) is overstated, if not ridiculous. Artists create art and want to share art, not their personal lives. If someone wants to know my personal life, the will become my personal friend (and you can't have many of those, despite the illusions of social networking). Otherwise, they'll learn about me through my art if they like the art. This idea of creating this fake intimacy with thousands of people is kind of sick, actually: selling them your personal belongings and spending time having "intimate" conversations online with thousands of strangers. Yes, strangers. (I'm not saying you shouldn't sell special packages and all that.)
Yes, art should touch people emotionally. That's as far as the
"intimacy" goes.
As for giving away music, artists have been fed the line and they're buying it. As someone else commented, give it away and its perceived value will go down. I guarantee you that if you have something that really does have value (and if you're lucky enough that it strikes a chord in your culture at the present time so that people desire it), people (whether fans or industry people or companies) will want it whether or not you're giving it away for free. All companies will give certain things away as promotional tools. That's fine. But in music, it's been taken to be the norm because tech companies want free content for their gadgets, from which they are making billions of dollars.
As for "great" art. You have to define that. The way Godin talks, it sounds to me like there are probably only about 4 or 5 people in the world who qualify. If you have to be Beethoven, everyone in every artistic endeavor might as well quit now and go to work at a bank like everyone else, since money is what our culture most values. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding that part of it. I agree that there is a lot of mediocre music being made. I think the reason for that (apart from the fact that professional recording is now affordable for almost everyone) is that people are spending all this time chasing success through social networking and trying to build this fake intimacy with a large mass of people, not to mention wasting their time reading books by marketing gurus.
Want to be successful as an artist? Spend time on your art. Do only what marketing, etc. that you have time for. You may or may not have huge monetary success, but you have the best chance of succeeding both artistically and financially that way.
And by the way, Mr. Godin, feeling like a loser is not part of being an artist. Thinking that artists feel like losers is part of being a smug marketing person.
This backs up what Tom Jackson says about creating moments when you perform. People come to your gigs to experience a moment, which I imagine is what Seth means about intimacy. Then they buy your CD because the moment affected them. Creating a moment does require a great performance, but there's something more, too. If we learn to create moments in our shows, we can draw people in. Then they buy our music. I agree. When I began to share myself more openly in performance, rather than just sing songs at them, people started caring about me and what I had to share. More CDs sold. I'm still working on it, of course.
I have a totally new definition of purple cow music:
Music that is remarkable because people can and do "use" it.
My visitors "use" my music they don't "listen" to it.
That has made all the difference.
From a listener and industry view:
My music is often rated as very average.
But I'm not in the music business...I'm in the Web content business now.
Thank god.
Dan-O
FINALLY, someone who "gets it." A musician's hard work and sacrifice is indeed a gift given to the world; TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT. No mentality surpasses this. Just because a literal handful of us "make it big" does NOT mean it's "how it's supposed to be." Not at all. The moment you EXPECT to gain thanks, praise, or money for your music, is the moment you've stopped becoming an artist, and instead have become something terribly worse - a tool - one that others will definitely use to exploit others, or even yourself!
interesting...a support for being authentic to yourself and really expressing yourself - being an artist more than a musician? probably being great at both...
great music is pretty subjective so i hope/guess we have to go for doing what u do and making it as great as u can (which will probably only come from years of refining your craft and message). And as for money, the making loads of it via your music is and has always been a path for the minority? were the "great" classical composers u can think of rich in their time?
this just feels like a carrot on a string. There are only so many mozarts, and even mozart starts to taste like macdonalds if you mass produce it.
If "great" happens, just be thankful for it, but "great" can't be controlled, or manufactured, it happens when it desires.
good article, but not great.
Definitely some interesting perspectives and some very "today" points worth paying attention to...tho there may be many "Very Good artists" on CDBaby...it's interesting how many "very average to bad" artists have been able to be successful in the music biz...I for one would be interested to hear Seth's explanation of how he feels that happens in the music biz...
What is "great" music?
I strongly disagree with Mr. Godin and submit the answer is ultimately subjective, not absolute.
In a capitalist society, in which success is measured by units sold, then the assumption is that music selling the most units is "great."
If that were true, then we must assume that most rap-hiphop is "great," since that genre has the most commercial appeal today, while contemporary classical music ought to be deemed mediocre at best, given the generally low sales generated by comparison.
In a capitalist society, in which the average education level is around sixth grade, wouldn't the most units sold ultimately accrue to the lowest common denominator?
In a capitalist society, isn't music designed to promote consumer products deemed to be "great," while music that fails in that mission viewed as inferior? In fact, wouldn't music that regularly attacks the capitalist status quo be the most ostracized and reviled music today?
Here is my personal subjective definition of "great"
1. Music that requires technical skill -- in other words, unless the musician understands musical theory, or works alongside somebody who does, that person(s) cannot create anything remotely complex (idiot savants excluded). It must be music that makes a person think, "Wow, I would have to go through years of schooling in musical theory to understand how to replicate that." Best example: The Beatles, largely unschooled in technical theory, can thank their brilliant producer/arranger George Martin for filling in their significant gaps of knowledge.
2. Music that is original -- it must trigger the "Wow!" factor, a sense of never having heard anything like it before, and a further sense that is so strangely different that it is beyond the imagination of the person listening to it. In other words, it must be music that seems to break the rules, yet in a way that is very seductive.
3. Music that both reflects and prognosticates its culture -- any music that can capture the Zeitgeist, and ultimately suggests where the society is evolving (or de-evolving) creates the sense that the music is exceptional.
4. Music that creates strong emotional reactions -- whether it is music that moves a person to tears or music that inspires a conservative gloomy fellow to jump up and dance, the music must generate strong reactions, pro or con. It seems if the music is not equally despised and loved, then it probably is not connecting to the emotions.
5. Music that is entirely memorable -- when you cannot shake a musical phrase or a lyric from your head, when it haunts you in the late hours of the night, or when its very unusual performance is so riveting, then that is music heading in the direction of the superlative.
I believe in music (and lyrics) as a compelling medium to provoke, inspire, and educate. The Big Media brainwash machine that seeks to persuade me what is "great" changes its message from generation to generation. It seems abundantly clear that "great" music is ultimately anything that transcends the fads of the day or the passage of time. Unfortunately, Mr. Godin does not have a crystal ball so he cannot make that final determination.
"Amazing Grace" is a great piece of music and lyrics, and history has pronounced its verdict in support of that contention.
Conversely, the historians have yet to determine the artistic merits of Kanye West's "Stronger," Britney Spears "Baby One More Time," or other populist favorites.
I find this whole post annoying. Godin spouts platitudes. You can't define great. And to use art in art galleries as an example of free art is plum ignorant.
Here's what's going on: music has become easier to steal, so more people are stealing it. We need to either change the law or enforce the ones that exist. Or both, really, because I do think that royalty rates need to be looked at again in the face of new distribution channels.
Greg (#47) and Dennis (#71), I wholeheartedly agree. Greg, you said "Music doesn't need to be great it needs to find a niche. You need to find the fans who are listening to the music you make."
Absolutely. My fans think my music is great, so as long as I can find the people who want to listen to my music, I'll continue being in business full-time as a self-employed healing singer.
Greg, you also pointed out that "Once you find these people and they are accepting you can build a "tribe" around them - including music sales, memberships, merch, packages, influence, affiliate products are more."
Again, so true. I am in the developing stages of building this for my fans. I already have it to an extent - for example, I offer a free e-book with all of my CDs that adds benefits/value to the experience of the CD, plus the story behind the songs. And I write an inspirational newsletter every week that goes out to my fans. But I'm working on more. It's truly the way to go.
And to Seth...
Though you so pompously state that none of the music on CDBaby is "great", this is so obviously a generalization - and a lie - meant to anger the masses and create controversy.
My music is physically and emotionally healing my listeners and healing clients, and giving people chills, visions, goose bumps, hairs standing on end, and tears. I don't need to wonder if it's great - because I'm told over and over by my fans and the people who hire me to perform and speak, that my music and voice are amazing. And I'm certainly not the only one, in this huge world of incredible artists, who has great music.
*If any of you want your music to give your fans chills, goose bumps etc. I'd be happy to share with you about how to do that. Maybe I'll write a blog about it. Hmmm...
http://healingsinger.com
Getting people to pay for your music is another thing though, no matter how great your music is...
The idea of selling intimacy is actually a good one, though perhaps poorly stated. A better way to describe it would be relationship marketing, or soft selling. Giving fans a real experience of you the artist, being authentically you/yourselves on stage, after the show, in the music and in your marketing materials... is a great direction to go. And we don't have to give away our latest CD to do that.
I do give away my music - ONLY stuff that is NOT on my CDs, that was recorded LIVE with MY digital recorder. And that has gotten me over 700 loyal fans signed up to my newsletter. It also got me several sponsorships and pre-orders of my latest CD, like someone else was mentioning above about theirs. Without the intimacy factor, that would not have happened.
Some of the mp3s I give away are actually radio interviews with me, where I'm singing live to air and telling my personal story. We can all do that so easily. Then you're not losing anything and you're gaining more loyal fans.
Great discussion here!
"I'm not equating 'great' with 'commercial.'"
"Great is in the ear of the listener, of course, and the definition is simple: if it spreads, then for this market, it's great."
I am trying to reconcile those two sentences.
But beyond that:
No one can own ideas anymore, they're all out there somewhere.
We're all trying to figure out how this is going to work out, but it's already happened - I have access to the entire known and recorded universe, all over this planet, all through history, with dozens of viewpoints often, and I'm just a regular person. Even if I were homeless in this country I have access to that. Isn't that mindblowing?
I can listen to the most obscure and interesting music for free and usually with a video. I am seldom forced to pay for anything, but I do.
I certainly don't want the artists I adore to stop making a living.
But the internet isn't going anyway, and everything is out there. Really.
So how does this work?
I think it's seduction, that's the intimacy.
I don't think the words "intimacy" and "souvenirs" play well together, but I understand the love of a tangible thing:
I can research anything I need on the internet and read anything for free at my library. The reason I buy books isn't because I needed the words, I buy them because I can make them a physical part of my life. That's the souvenir aspect. And that's the intimacy with a souvenir. The love of throwing brilliant words into my bag, reading them at a coffeeshop, reading while I stand in a line, bending the pages a little, loaning the words to a friend - I love to have that.
But a lot of things exist as intangible things, like music itself. And the intimacy comes from me, always.
I still buy cd's, even though I download a lot more often, but sometmes I like a physical thing I can carry around, look at the artwork, an object in itself. If the artwork isn't interesting I don't usually think about buying physical cd's anymore, but - I do pay for music I download.
I fully realize I don't usually need to, but I look at it like throwing money in someone's tip jar - if I like it I won't just walk past.
So to make it work for all of us, people have to WANT to not walk past the intimacy thing. They have to say they really like you - whether you're great or good or you totally and completely suck on some cosmic scale - people have to be willing to throw a buck in your tip jar. It seems to me that that's what it comes down to.
And judging by popularity polls, most of what other people throw in a buck for is not the same as my choices. And that's fine I think. As long as everyone who likes it and has an extra buck throws it in and doesn't just walk by - so that means they have to fall in love just a little. It isn't about souvenirs, unless it's souvenirs you're selling, but it's always about falling in love and wanting to give something back.
Seduction.
jeremy christ...
wrote
"You should keep that in mind then the next time you experience an amazing performance in a film where the actor really speaks to you... they just sold you intimacy alongside a million others. How did they sell you intimacy without actual intimacy?"
yo j man
they didn't sell me anything other than great acting.
if i want true great intimacy i get naked with my honey and we do all the wonderful kinky things that the watching gods enjoy as much as we do.
real life is real life, real art is not real life, it is just great--very good---above average---d minus art. nothing else.
Writing music is something I have to do. The melodies won't go away
until I make a lead sheet. I'm happy with my music the way it is.
I've never had much time to travel
around an push my music. Since I
am not a singer it's more difficult; however I'm satisfied with my web site. My music is selling all over the world and it makes me happy to know others enjoy listening to it.
For many years I have written songs
daily. I guess I'll be in the middle of a new song the day I die.
I have experienced what I think is the way to know if a song is better than good. I wrote a song called "The Girl Next Door" It's about a lady that worked on my floor where my office is and one day we went to lunch, over lunch she told me she had been married twice and both husbands had died, the second in The World Trade Center.
The first time I played it in public was at an open mic here in NYC. The person I played after was here from Ohio with her parents. Just as I finished the song I hear her ask her mother, why she was crying. At that moment I knew I had a song that was better than good. A song has to touch someone in some way, whether it makes them cry,. laugh, relate, or whatever.
First, have a great song--then gift it to everyone you can!
Hmm Seth it smells like bullshit!
So.....The last paragraph basically ends with "forget about trying to sell your music and figure out what else your music can help you sell." Not very encouraging. Would you have accepted this mentality if you still owned CD Baby, Derek?
I appreciate all points of view. I only ingest the ones that personally resonate, though. If it doesn't encourage you, ignore it. Works for some, not others. -- Derek
All good with that.... Bring on the free, very good, and the great stuff... M
Derek.
When you were involved with CD Baby we were selling albums since you left we haven't had a sale. Why?
The moon. -- Derek
MARK LACOB
tried to contact you from your myspace, didn't go.
you have a hooky voice and very good (maybe great) songs.
PLEASE!!!! contact me at
musicnominations@aol.com
the grammy's (philly office) is now a sponsor of
www.lehighvalleymusicawards.org
an ian creation. furthered by gloria
What is great? Great to one person, is not great to another. If you write from the heart and put your music out there to be listened to, it will touch some people and not others, but the feedback you get encourages you to carry on, and can inspire you.
If success comes, so be it, but let me be true to myself.
It's fascinating to consider how much influence money has over our sense of value on things. To paraphrase Lennon, 'the only people who think they own the music are the publishers.' Music is free by nature, as is all art. In today's music industry, we are the publishers, at least to the extent of the Inet, CD duping, etc. so we do own everything. I often reconsider Lennon's quote in today's whacky music industry and try to make that connection to McLeod's book and other strategies. What it seems to come down to (for me, anyway) is... make music.
If you enjoy the art and have a passion to create it, and continually be inspired, it will be great. I find I enjoy it more this way and can have more positive experiences with my music instead of feeling like a loser. Thanks.
Thank you Derek and Seth for reminding me! Intimacy... that is it. It worked for me when I performed concerts to over 15,000 in San Diego. The K-6 students loved my concept of heroes, doing the best you can do, and ending starvation and malnutrition throughout earth.
I have got to get back to it. However I am frustrated because it takes money. I need capital for a business plan which includes the live concerts, new music, a new interactive book series (going to be a tremendous hit) and a team-up website called http://www.thecount.org
I am offering a $5000 cash finder's fee to anyone who connects me to the full capital for my plan. People can view my plan on www.thecount.org. Click on the Breakthrough page and scroll down. Thank you for reading this.
Again that is it - intimacy. I need partners.
Steve Bruce
To everyone attacking Seth's definition of great; you may disagree with this, but that does not invalidate the rest of the argument.
My best payback and intimate moment was a show we did last October when the entire audience began singing the chorus to a song with us.
I never, ever thought that would happen.
But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so you can't just put this all into a tidy little box.
What a load of shit!
Seth's model means never getting paid to make your music. He would have being a musician become the privelege of people who can afford it. It leaves behind artists who have spent their lives creating art for those with good enough jobs to pay their way.
Usually I like, agree with and generally support what I see in these pages. But Seth is like the rich among the religious right. Just because he was lucky, he thinks it's some kind of virtue.
great music - its a convergence - the song comes into play - but so does the pyschological state of the listener - did your music touch him or her when he or her needed it most?
Hi Derek, thanks for posting this, but I agree with the people who disagree with Seth's ideas.
2 things:
1) What is "great music" is not well defined or fairly defined in his answers, so I mostly agree with Catman Cohen's descriptions above, on this. Commercial music certainly does not mean great music!
2) Why do we have to give out music free? I understand things have changed, internet radios, file sharing, piracy...but just because it's easier to download music does not justify the fact that it's still a theft.
The problem is because the Movie Industry can protect their rights better than the Music Industry by being more organized (unions, attorneys,etc) and because it's easier to download music than movies (smaller in data size) does not mean that we have to let people download it free or without paying royalties. It's just that the Music Industry should find ways, right away in fact, to deal with today's new technology like the Movie Industry does!
Seth's long answer feels a little Zen-like to me. I find several ambiguities and contradictions, in theory. Thus, this is not very helpful to those seeking direction. My retort is to say, if you TRY BEING GREAT by using songwriting formulas, then this means your music is not genuine. WHAT IS GENUINE IS GREAT! I have stopped worrying about being great, in terms of public opinion. However, I still put myself out there. Sometimes people just don’t get it, and paradoxically, what people don’t get the first time somehow intrigues them. We should not TRY to be different, OR great! We should allow ourselves room to create, without second-guessing our audience or others. Immediately, innovators like Bob Dylan, Frank Zappa, and David Bowie spring to mind!
As we write, perform and record "from the heart", and keep our worries about fame and adoration out of it, great, GENUINE music can come through us! Everything in life is about the Law of Attraction. What kind of reward do we seek? The satisfaction in connecting with higher energies that come through us when we let go of our egos, denotes perhaps the greatest reward … it is the goodness from which greatness is made. Now, how is THAT for Zen?
PS ~ I really like what Don-O had to say, BTW!
Guess we are all trying to figure this out! Perhaps we should stop trying to figure it out, and stop worrying! Let's just relax, and focus, without attachment to the outcome! RELAX, CREATE AND "LET IT BE". (Hey, that was not a bad suggestion from a GREAT artist!)
Not sure if I agree. I mean, yes, most of music is available for free downloads today. However, if you start thinking in this terms, if you start offering it to anyone who's passing by for free, you're selling yourself short. Let them at the very least make some effort and try to find it - even for free, instead of simply giving it away that easily (that is if they're interested at all. If they are not - why bother?) Another point - being available at torrents or elsewhere for free almost serves as an indicator of success today, unless you're the one who's making your own stuff easily available for free. I mean, the day when I find my music on torrents will be my lucky day (if I know that I'm not the one who posted it there). OK, there
I think Seth is splitting hairs over very good and great; they are just about the same thing. If you ask 100 people what a great song is you will get just about 100 different views. To be frank I didn't read all of what Seth wrote. Popular music seems to me to be rarely great music or songs these days, and many of the more obscure bands and songs are far better generally to my ears. The music industry doesn't encourage the kind of musical freedom it did many years ago. Music is very subjective; words are less subjective because there seems to be more of an art and science to great lyric writing. We are all psychologically different when it comes to what we like. How often has it been that a band thought they had a sure hit with a particular song, and it didn't go anywhere, and the one they didn't think was very good or great shot to number 1. Let's be honest here what is great is often in the ear of the beholder. Really great music in my view is about innovation, because otherwise we are recycling the past. It's a paradox because in another sense there's not too much truly new and fresh under the sun. We can analyze standards and find commonalities about those songs, but great again is in the ear of the beholder. Thanks for this opportunity for me to express my views, Derek!
Hi Dereck, First, we should be happy with our creation even before people rate it . The beauty and the emotional content within your music work carries the ratings by themself. We can not and should not concern soooooo much about oversupply of music out there(Worry doesn't help anyway). Whatever you could offer emotionally to your listeners with your soundcreation,lyrics.....will eventually comes back to you. Yes, there are maybe many different kinds of "intimacy" as well. Best regards to all!
Thank you so much for asking the questions Derek. Now I'm going to buy Linchpin.
I love Seth and his books, but I think he's best at advising people how to market music when he's not talking about music. I think his real point here is indirect though; if everyone who feels they're only "very good" stops making and trying to sell music, the long tail will gradually disappear, honing down the competition to survival of the fittest, and allowing the music that's left to gain more value, be 'sellable' again.
The problem with selling 'intimacy' is the same problem as finding 1000 hardcore fans: it ignores the main audience for music - the casual fan. Many people don't *want* intimacy, so if that's all you're offering, you'll lose 'em.
Now if he would just write a book on GREAT music marketing!
There are so many erroneous presumtions here that it is almost impossible to respond without being crushed by the tedious weight of them all.
Selling Intimacy? excellent advice for first year prostitutes.
The smell of the baked goods?It makes you more hungry, not less. But try walking off with a biscuit without paying for it.
What is true is that the greatness of art has nothing to do with it's marketplace attractivness or the pricing policies of the shopkeeper.
Why one pretty good artist gets rich and another does not is the same question as why one soldier gets shot dead and his buddy, a few feet away, gets away clean.
You can calculate all the trajectories and wind speeds you want but what it boils down to are
the meaningless results of a mad battle field.
Nobody can fill their belly sniffing the bread. But once you give away your recordings, what do you really have left to sell? T shirts? What a joke. If I want to sell t-shirts, I'd manufacture them and sell them to tons of people with whatever they wanted printed on them, not one at a time for people who want a memory. The Cd is the memory. The recording is the moment of the listeners life. It is what people will play 20 years from today to remember that time in their life. It is our product. If there isn't a way to re-capture revenue from recordings, great recordings will become even more rare, as artists will not be able to spend the time and money required to create them. The musicians who think it's fine to give away their future in the hopes of selling a t-shirt are destined to get a day job or live in poverty.
I've revised my earlier comment:
The executive summary of every business plan I've ever read identifies a specific market's needs and how the company is going to meet those needs. But in art, "great" art, traditionally a true artist hasn't paid attention to "market's" but rather the muse. Well, that is unless the artist was commissioned to do a portrait of the king's daughter.
Now that the musician is the Creator and CEO on down to the sales exec, the conflict escalates over "art" and "commercialism"
I'd love to hear what Seth recommends to musicians who are "Spreading Music and Selling Intimacy" how to maintain a true sense of artistry and develop "great" art?
In the age old paradox of generating livelihood via creative acts - how does one make "great" art if one is perpetually taking and analyzing the tribe's temperature prior to creating a product most likely to be purchased and consumed by the tribe? This strategy has musicians trading in one bank of gatekeepers (record labels, radio program directors, internal and external critics for a new one - i.e. the consumer. This paradigm flies in the face of Hugh MacLeod's "Ignore Everybody" philosophy.
Seth's "Spread Music and Sell Intimacy" directive to musicians/artists sentences them to continue wrestling with that circuitous art/commerce conundrum rather than finally skating blissfully on an uninterrupted creativity continuum.
And I also wonder what gives Seth Godin, who is a brilliant marketer, the confidence to speak so authoritatively about what is and isn't "great" art? Some of us professional musicians have also had successful business careers in marketing/sales in order to pay the mortgage. So we might have an opinion on marketing. Has Seth has had a second career as a concert pianist? Painter? Yes, I do recognize the artistry of entrepreneurs, but I've yet to see venture capitalists get excited about an indie musician.
Respectfully,
Pam Mark Hall
Very interesting I guess right now this term of greatness can also be applied as a paralellism to the saying that ´´ beauty is on the eye of the beholder ´´ So great music is on the ear of the listener if they believe it to be great.
To me great music is the music that lives on through time no matter how many years have passed after it was made, you can listen to it and still feel it is great. Like it and listen to it over and over without getting tired or bored from it.
Has Seth ever written a song?? I doubt it. He trying to affect a social curve... trying to change how we perceive ownership. He comes from a "money" world... not an artist world,
There are so many ways that I am rewarded for making music. I wish I were making more money at it, but I experience great joy in other ways: writing, playing, and listening to the music I make. What's more I've made wonderful friends. I hope too that I have spread some joy. I'm going to keep doing it no matter what happens money-wise, and I hope to remain open and appreciative to ALL of the benefits making music has bestowed upon me.
Thanks Derek. Have A) taken yet another look @ Seth Godin's Wikipedia profile & B) ordered a copy of his book, "Linchpin" through our regional library system. Well worth a perusal. One thing that is indisputable - the various & sundry models for audiences & consumers to learn about new music does continue to evolve at a much faster clip than anytime since the popularization of some of the previous generations of media: CD's, MTV, Walkmen, CS Tape, Late Night TV, FM Radio. TTFN. - PM
Well, I think I could get the "booed off stage part down.." I think what Seth is saying , since there are masses of material to choose from, it's the bond you make with people that will keep them coming.. I know that when people come to our studio and watch us play they LOVE us!! Think we're great!! But they're right there with us and all the sound is flowing through them so...they are experiencing us..intimately I guess. I also wonder...there is alot of not great music out that is HUGELY embraced and adored...I find that kindof a puzzle...media helps make that possible I suppose.
Well we're going to keep on...I think great music, yes, but also some of it is just destiny....
Have a warm and lovely evening....
Rachel
Seth's opinion is one of many out there in the music business.All I know is that the public will always reach for their wallets when a song with a professional sounding production has a great melody and a great hook.
When I sing and play a gig, I get a really great feeling that those who hear my songs, really like them and that is worth all the effort for me. I feel like a star when I am singing for my audience, that is what makes it all worth while. Thank You fans and thank you God for giving me a voice.
I only like to buy great music: so I only buy 1 album every 2 years that meets that standard.
I'll also buy a CD as a souvenir from a GREAT show. Or i'll buy a not-so-great album from an artist who was once great or put on a great show at one point.
Seth touches on the elusive obvious. And yes there are so many seeming contradictions to what is great. Maybe that's why so few become great?
Problem is that it can take away motivation to create a work and invest hard earned cash in it. It costs alot of money to get projects up and running and if a huge % will just be stolen then it makes it very unsettling We are artists and wish to create regardless but it does suck every rent day when im left thinking how the bloody hell do i pay the rent again!? How much more time needs to go into cash problem solving instead of creativity.
As for selling intimacy; would be good to extend on this topic with a few more examples) A live gig is one, yes. Sometimes they dont break even either.
I would love to see a discussion on actually getting round these hurdles and supporting the artists in making money. Ways to prevet theft online and other avenues to venture into. Not just positive hoo haa but real ideas that work. The days of the starving artist are really starting to take its toll. And i am a very busy and musician!)
Derek,
I have been toying with the idea of having songs I NEVER record, only perform, and only in certain high-value settings.
The greater point of this article is, how can we create scarcity in a flooded market. Value is high only for scarce resources. We need to create them. Not everyone is comfortable with sharing and getting paid for intimacy, so that is a nice outlet for those who are. For everyone else.....? I guess we/they are SOL.
Some funny comments.
Some funny answers to some funny comments.
As I should be thanking you everytime you take the time for writing these very insightful and helpful articles for all of us musicians which I find tremendously useful,....I don't! But please do know that I appreciate them everytime and try to apply what I can from them.
Anyway, I don't really have any comments for you regarding this topic. Just wanted to send you some positive spirit,...and my gratitoode.
Solitoode
Record labels don't actually make their money on CD sales but in the licensing of songs to TV, movies, radio, etc. as well as merchandise, so on that point he is merely saying this "new way" is what the labels were already doing.
Independent artists don't have that kind of marketing clout because, although in his world payola is a thing of the past, in reality it is still a big part of how labels get their acts across.
This message is fine for people who want to do music as a hobby. Let's see Seth work for free. He can always sell a T-shirt to compensate.
This is a mighty big topic, and to me the most pertinant today not only to musicians but generally. This all started with the introduction of cds, but it's also a reflection of how our culture has evolved.
Many years ago I was the cd buyer for a Tower Records store, and consequently I recieved dozens of cds each week-by artists on labels-and I began to get 'numb' to it all-no matter how good the music was, or how much I respected the artist, or looked forward to a new discovery, very little sank in and stayed with me, made me want to replay and replay the 'album' as was the case in 'the old days'. The music began to be 'disposable', and more and more the cd became a commodity to be traded, burned, resold, etc. I'm not going to get into all the physical and metaphysical reasons for this, but this is partially how it began.
Yes, the old label system is/was falling apart, but we're all just inundated with more and more music, and every kid on every corner with a good computer system feels they can create 'great' music. One doesn't need to play an intrument, sing on key (or even sing) and yes, no one feels they need to 'pay' for music anymore.
However, many of 'us' have spent a lot of time and money to produce something of quality-something we are proud of-something that reflects a continuum in our lives, our creative process. And with gazillions of 'releases' out there every week, and everyone 'sharing' their music in mostly reduced sonic quality (online, ipods, etc)it becomes way more difficult to truly cut through the noise.
'Great' has never necessarily risen to the top, and 'great' is even more subjective in 2010 than it was in 1967. Hendrix was 'great' to me, but shit to my mom. 'Great' depends on what you grew up listening to, what was going on with your life when you listened to it-just for starters. And 'great' never has necessarily gotten spread around. There's artists, songs, albums that have profoundly affected my life, that have many or most have never heard of-some would call these 'underground' but I just call them 'great'.
The general public also have conditioned ourselves and allowed ourselves to be told-fed, if you will, what's 'great'.
Just look at the joke that the Grammys are!
Mr. Godin seems to contradict himself a bit, as early on he speaks of 'TRYING' to be commercial, and at the end says 'figure out what great is and do that' which is a bit ludicrous. No matter what you put into it or how many people dig it or don't, buy it or don't, what's great to you can still be crap to me. You have to be honest and true to yourself, and honest WITH yourself, and believe in yourself as an artist, and you have to be open as a listener.
When is the last time music changed YOUR life? Unless you allow yourself the time to sit down and absorb a song or album without distraction, chances are it never will. Blazing through a hundred songs online at cdbaby is not condusive to hearing 'great' music. It's probably there, but you've already hardened yourself to the fact that (like many critics) it's going to take something really special (in your wizened ears) to impress you.
Because someone may have the time and know-how to take full advantage of, and manipulate social media sites and the internet does NOT mean their music is 'great'. The goal should not be to make music for a 'market that is super picky and selfish and has ADD' but to make music that DEMANDS to be made from within you and won't let go of you until you've allowed it to be born. And if enough of us make that kind of music, we might just help to change the 'market' from it's current state.
And people should be willing to pay for it. Galleries are paying to display the art, even if the public can view it for free (and many galleries charge admission) and music was never 'free' on the radio-royalties were paid to performance rights organizations who in turn distribute the money to the authors and artists. You CAN sniff the bread, but if you want to eat it you have to PAY for it-and you can LOOK at that cool label on the wine, but if you want to drink it...
Most of us have to put food on our table, and provide for ourselves a place to live, etc. If you choose to make music your livelihood-or more to the point, if music has chosen YOU-ie, you're willing to do whatever it takes to the point of excluding all else (wives, girlfriends, family, a 'normal' life, your health, etc) in order to create music, then you should be compensated for your art. This is part of the rub, as the 'establishment' has always known that if push came to shove, we WOULD do it for free-so they capitalize on that-from the way old blues and reggae (and other) artists were robbed in the old days, to the agreements the major labels were able to extract from many artists, to the club down the street that expects you to fill the place and share a percentage of the door, (or actually pay to play) to the many many 'gigs' offered on places like SonicBids that expect the artist to pay to be a member, pay to submit to a 'gig', and pay expenses, travel, etc to be on a gig that pays little to nothing.
Now the internet 'share' culture has manifested in such a way that nobody expects to pay for music, and artists are expected to offer songs for free, split up a full release and sell songs individually, etc, so where does that leave the artist?
The only thing more intimate than someone sitting alone in a room with the lights off and their eyes closed, and allowing themselves to be transported by listening to a song that someone else has pulled from their soul, is the intimacy of that artist creating that song.
That IS the souvenir. If you go to a club or a concert hall or a stadium to see that artist, it's because of that song. Maybe you'll be transported at the show, too, and maybe you'll pick up a t-shirt, but it starts with the song.
And if that song is great to YOU, it's a great song.
And the artist deserves to be paid for it.
Dear Derek,
Quite a good summation of the music world as it is today. I don't mind having my music being "Streamed" freely.
(read given away for nothing).
My DD revenue for Dec struggled to the vast total of $ 0.010,030,000, Just a shade over 1 cent. 3 full 24 track albums were given away for nothing. I would like a slight balance in the ratio without seeming to appear selfish.
The test of how great music is, is in the live performance, as well as how much feel is in the recording, a great example of this is Alice Cooper "Schools Out" the recording rings with a belief & conviction that most vocalists would not convey,another is "Fight For The Right To Party" & the test is to play these to drunk Rock Fans !!
If you can get 10,000 people to "steal" your music, you're doing something very well. Nobody takes what they don't like.
To all recording artist and songwriters,ask your selves are you making music to make a living or is your music a contributing factor in making the world a better place?
This is a very interesting article. It also touches on the sensitivities of artists and the sacrifices they make for their work. I'm an artist, people tell me my music is great etc etc, especially my label manager. But I remain extremely unknown....and I've never had a huge following. I think sometimes 'great' doesn't always mean, acceptance. Nick Drake had a tiny fan base while he was alive, and it took years for his music to surface to the masses. This competitive industry often leaves artists feeling alienated and confused in their direction, and the irony (and I'm not talking about pin up bands) is that the artists who are true to themselves and just laugh off the pitfalls and games associated with the music machine, are usually the ones who shine in the end due to their originality and self belief. Of course, the very great are extremely talented, but it's a combination.
Hi Derek again my friend!!lol!! I thought I was crazy for it took me ten years to figure it out and I'm still broke!!lol!!However Seth Godin is 100% right even though he didn't say "process" thats the whole nature of his blog I really hope all the indie artist and some majors read this blog for they will see the promise is really premissed!!lol!! and the process is saying "Hey you forgot about me" thanks Derek I'm really beginnig to like these articles God! bless!
This is a fascinating conversation I am so happy I took the time to read it. I see this dilemma from a couple of perspectives. First as a musician and secondly as a marketer.
I have been writing songs and singing since I was thirteen - I have been recording music since the mid eighties and I will continue to write, record and perform. And I will continue to sell my musical products on line and from the stage.
Additionally, I have worked on 5 national (print) magazines over the past twenty five years, some of them music industry focused. What has changed so dramatically has been the way EVERYTHING is marketed and sold, not just music. This is not a question of "good or great" music, Music is a matter of taste, some people love broccoli and some people hate it, it's the same with music. Besides, if it were simply a question of quality what do you say to the substantial history of products in any given industry that suck but sold well? Explanation ... great marketing!
This is clearly a marketing issue and the marketing paradigm has shifted for EVERYONE, not just people marketing music. It has changed dramatically because of this thing called the internet. With any massive change there will be losers and winners. The losers are the people who own and are heavily invested in the old way of selling and won't or can't adapt and the winners will be the people who figure out how to use the new technology to win. And I mean win financially because without financial success nothing is sustaianable.
As far as I am concerned there has never been more opportunity to create an audience in the history of mankind and when ever you can create an audience you can make money. So when Seth talks about creating intimacy, what I believe he is referring to is creating a relationship with your list (email fan list). And when he talks about "giving it away" what he is referring to is what they call in the Internet Marketing world as "Moving the FREE line." This means "adding value to your marketing". It is naive to expect people to give you their time and attention if you are not giving them anything - we live in a world full of information and there is a lot of competition fighting for that attention. Attention is worth a lot, this is what the media is selling and if you don't believe me, google the cost of a super bowl advertising 60 second spot.
I hope my two cents is helpful - thanks Derek
Elizabeth
I think I totally get it, though I am not sure if I can put it in succinct enough words to make it understandable to everyone.
1) Seth's definition of being GREAT (he uses the term REMARKABLE, too) is when someone receives your offering, they get so excited that they can't help talking about it to everyone they know.
2) If you achieve #1 to a fraction of the population (nobody appeals to everybody) then you won't have to worry as much about SELLING, as in trying to manipulate your audience to support your endeavor, because they (audience) will see to it that you will continue to supply the GREAT/REMARKABLE offering which only you can supply. Then giving away is a viable method to start "spreading your virus." Don't worry too much about how exactly to monetize -- your tribe will help you figure it out, as long as you are GREAT enough to have a tribe build itself.
3) If you are not GREAT/REMARKABLE then you'll have to use more of marketing/manipulating techniques/tricks/resources. In the other words, the less GREAT you are, the more business/marketing savvyness/resources you'll require.
4) GREATNESS/REMARKABLENESS is always in demand, precisely because the supply is always short, it's always been. That hasn't changed even in internet era.
--
Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the band Tool. I am one of those who think they are GREAT. Yet they are just as ordinary of a band as they can be -- just voice, guitar, bass and drums -- they don't tour much, they take years between albums, they are not everywhere (not even on iTunes). Yes, they are on a major label and so far they continue to thrive in that environment. I think it's because their music has GREATNESS. I get excited when I think of how GREAT their music is.
And the reason why I'm not exactly making a living from music alone is because my music is not as GREAT, and I don't have the business/marketing savvyness/resources to make up the difference. My music may be VERY GOOD, but while it's hard to put a finger on exactly where the difference lies, I don't think I've broken through the threshold between VERY GOOD and GREAT yet.
I do keep trying, because I enjoy trying and I feel that I'm getting closer, it's somewhere just outside my reach -- I just have this sense that I'll hit upon it some time when I stop trying too hard, for some reason. And I think the hint, for all of us, lies in whatever it is that pushes our own buttons -- when we do things that make us so happy that we can't help being giddy and silly with excitement.
May we all find our greatness,
ari
First, we should all realize that Derek’s and Seth’s reason for being right now is to get us thinking, and get us out of the box. They have given us a fantastic opportunity to group think this thing, but we also have to do some translating—especially since Seth is not a musician.
I’ve followed Seth for over a year, and it’s been fascinating. I swear I’ve seen him argue both sides of a situation, but I could be wrong. I DO know that he has given away hundreds of thousands of copies of some of his books (in eBook form), especially his book on Permission Marketing. We can take an example from that, as it bought him quite a bit of market share and exponential fame.
GREAT music? Well, we’ll always strive, but who is to say what is great? It’s the members of the niche—large or small—that likes what we do. Finding that niche is at least as important as the art part, and it takes a tremendous amount of work.
No, it’s not okay to steal music. But for mine…here, I give it to you. All of it. Almost. If I don’t know you, there is something I’d like. Your name, email address, and permission to be in touch. Now if my songs get passed on to others, no real problem. Each one is a free advertisement for me and the special things I’m going to actually sell.
What’s left to sell? The premium product. My fans love my songs, but many more have bought CDs from me personally at shows and talks than have downloaded FREE mp3s. They want something to have autographed, better sound, pictures, and liner notes. They want souvenirs of the EXPERIENCE I give them. What else can I sell? My performances for one. But I can’t just stand up there and look at my shoes. I have to strive to do as good a job as possible “selling” the song and the experience from the stage--like Bono, or The Boss, or Michael Jackson. I have to influence my audience’s good experience any way that I can, including sound, lights and the kind of rooms I choose to play in. When I’m done, the audience craves more connection. It doesn’t happen when I stand off in a corner of the room. I have to walk the room, make myself available, answer the questions like “what made you write that song,” ask for names and addresses, learn about them, let them learn about me, and offer products.
Keep rabidly working it, especially the connection/intimacy part, for a few years and your audience WILL grow. I’m cool with letting the downloads go for free, when I can sell so many CDs because of the momentum and fame they create. And the big money? That might just come from licensing to advertising, TV shows and movies.
As much as we want mp3s to just magically sell because we think they're good or great, this takes work. REALLY fun work, but work. It is not going to happen by push button, which is what selling downloads is. Intamacy is one of the few things that makes our art valuable now in this very new world.
Thank You Thank You Thank You!
Where was this incredible dialog when I was looking for it five years ago as I wrote my first book.
"The Music Business Is Burning Down, Thank God!"
I will take a big deep breath - long overdue - when the many business "Experts" and "Consultants" with magnificent concepts (ie: precisely conceived, smartly packaged, "very good but not great" marketing books, overpriced/over-valued song critiques and hyper-hyped conferences) are as buried in a sea of their own kind whose new products each week make theirs as seemingly insignificant as we, the working musicians buzzing like moths around their 100 watt concepts, often feel about our efforts.
Unfortnately, I may never get that breath with the absolutely crushing amount of "professional information" we are sifting through each day.
The indie-music consultant business is doing the best business in the independent music industry. Period.
Let us hope that this trend, this newly disguised "gatekeeper" model, does not have as negative an impact as the old "music business" model did.
"Life changing" music does not take root in a marketing plan. No musician of any respectful caliber would dare say in advance of composing or upon the release date that their music is "life changing". With the exception of the personal changes - positive and/or negative - that may result from creating the work. Is this what he means to say?
And what, is "intimacy" the new catch phrase for reaching out to potential fans on Facebook?
Ah, the human condition: deeply valuable and genuinly confusing. Proceed with caution my musician friends. Enjoy yourselves but carry a big stick.
It all boils down to creating fans at live events, bringing a great show to them, connecting with them, and then following up with solid fan cultivation. Fans will turn into consumers, but you have to give them a good reason to.
It used to be that content was king, now, context is king.
Seth said, "Great is in the ear of the listener, of course, and the definition is simple: if it spreads, then for this market, it's great."
Often, the great songs are thought to be not so great by the artist or the so-called experts. The truth is determined by the public.
All this talk of GREAT songs, I think we need some real examples here people!
With our album, our fans always comment on how very good the album is, then comment on how GREAT the song 'The Forgotten' is on the album.
My intention is not to gloat here, but rather point out that many of us here have created that one song that tends to stick out to fans. I think the key is to learn from that particular song we created, take it apart, and analyze what made it so great. Then try to top it with your next composition.
Here is where 'The Forgotten' can be heard: http://www.myspace.com/forevermourning
I'm hoping for others to share their best...thanks for your time!
To evaluate "great" could be in the eyes of the beholder. (or maybe ears with a song)Some may say our presidents great, other may say "great for what"? The song Houndog may have been a great seller but there wasn't anything great about the words. It was the artist, production and promotion that was great. So from that aspect a poor song can be great and a great song can amount to nothing.. commercially that is. So the question is where lies greatness?
I've done three Cd's and I've had my
Up's 'n' Downs.
Today I feel like that U2 Song
"I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For."
Reading some of these comments has given Me a New Spark.
Thanks
A lot of musicians seam almost offended by this post.
The problem is that as soon as we are able to produce good music, we expect the world to bow down and embrace us. If you were an accountant or a software developer, would you expect the same? That as soon as you can perform your job competently, you should have national fame and recognition?
Answer this question honestly: Do you have a song that as soon as (some) people listen to it they have to have it?
If the answer is yes, stop reading and work on making more copies of your CD. Despite all the music piracy, free downloads and so on … You got it made.
If the answer is no, which is the case for 99.99% of us on this page, this is the reason
you are not making millions. Good marketing, perseverance, and hard work are also necessary, but without the main ingredient they can’t get you what you are after.
Seth, as an outsider made this observation: In a world where a lot of good music is given away, you have to be great to make it big. Don’t get me wrong, if you are happy with making your living from local shows, local followings, corporate events, and so on. That is just fine and you can make a career out of it just like an accountant. But if you want to have a Remarkable art career, you have to produce Remarkable art. There can be no formula or guidance for what remarkable art is. You have to discover and invent your version.
Thanks for the article Derek.
Hey Derek
thanks for posting this,i agree hundred percent with Seth and i have noticed some big musicians have taken the intimacy route off late and as a fan i would actually pay for something like that,it makes so much sense as i see this in front of my eyes at every gig i do-people want a piece of you and the experience of having had a personal one on one is far more valuable and wantable to music fans now than going and searching out a cd or a download somewhere on the net!
Warm regards
Tuki
ps-do drop me a line next time you pass through Calcutta,lets meet
I don't agree with Seth's idea that great is unsettling or being booed off stage, but I do understand that as an artist we run the risk of having the experience of rejection - great or not. People have their own ideas of what's "great" to them. If someone needs an unsettling experience, and they experience a piece of music or art as being such, they may consider that to be great.
I believe that ultimately what is presented here is the truth and the future that is on the way whether we like it or not. I also believe that the 'old' model of live shows supporting cd sales is now reversed...give the music to the world freely in order to support the intimacy of live performances....this has always been the payoff for me, when someone is listening then approaches me after the show and tells me that I've touched them in some way in my performance I get the biggest thrill and the next booking. I remember crying once at a Billy Joel concert...............
I do love these discussions.
I also think there could be more, "how to write a "great" song or capture an amazing vocal" discussions (minus production-trick tips that litter the internet).
And personally, I think THOSE issues are mostly spiritual and only partly practical.
We seem to have enough of "How to get your music out there" already.
But if it isn't "great" "awesome" or at least "new" (in some way), then it's time to reflect on how we can get it that way, because if we don't, and most people don't, we're just trying to sell cars with no wheels.
And as my grandmother used to say, "Who the hell wants a car with no wheels? I'd rather walk."
Some people pirate music and don't pay for it, no matter what. Others pirate music, sample it, and then pay for the stuff they like.
I'm OK with the second group. I'm happy with the idea of relinquishing enough control to let people listen to my band's music before they plunk down any cash for it.
And I don't want to punish members of the second group for the actions of the first.
Swing and a big miss on this one. Seth Godin may have some arguable tips concerning retail marketing, but he should stay away from talking about art. So much of the "new" music marketing stratagems require musicians to buy into the notion that art does not matter. Art matters. Does art sell? Different topic altogether.
There is so much wrong with Godin's point of view that it would take too much space here to address everything, but, a few reckless blunders require rebuttal.
Godin writes, "Feeling like a loser is part of being an artist..." POPPYCOCK! That type of antiquated idiocy has always been the hallmark of buffoons and dilettantes. Depression is not an artistic prerequisite. It is simply part of the human experience. Not only is it not required, it is a debilitating obstacle to the creative process. The phenomenon of 'having gotten over feeling like a loser' has some merit, but to say that we are to be stuck there as part of our life as artists is just absurd.
In college I shared a house with half a dozen musicians, all playing in several working bands each. As we were sitting around the coffee table one afternoon, one of the trumpet players suddenly blurted out, "You know, if you want to be really great, you gotta be willing to suck for a long time." Now THAT rang true then, as it does now, but we didn't sit around feeling crappy about our path - we just kept on with improving our playing, our improvising, and our listening skills. An honest artist doesn't have time to be wallowing in self pity. There's too much work to do.
The thesis of his next three paragraphs is undecipherable, as he seems to be changing his opinion every other sentence, but the spurious assertion that "By definition, Great cannot create widespread apathy" is ridiculous. He says, "I'm not equating 'great' with 'commercial'," but that is exactly what he comes up with here. Great art has met with apathy, mania, and everything else in between. Artistic merit is not measurable - either proportionally or inversely - in sales (though many wish that it were so).
Godin's point about consumers being interested in a personal connection (he calls it "intimacy") is a cliche of marketing basics - but he really is out of his depth using words like "art" and "artist." What he is talking about is "retailing." If that is one's goal, then, why not sell iPods, or pot, or marketing books to social-networking rainbow chasers instead? Lots less frustration, and a more reliable income. But then, that would be exactly when a true artist would feel like a "loser." Not when she is doing what she loves, but when her life has become encumbered by anything else.
I agree with Seth, but with a consideration.
Even a lot of super-great music is doomed to remain unlistened, just because available "ears", today, are terribly much less than available songs.
Great and unforgettable musicians must also be great and unforgettable marketers: very good marketing is not sufficient any more.
A wonderful day to everyone,
Gabriele
Yes, the market is flooded with mediocre music and yet I am bothered by this contradiction: if, as Seth says, "the goal today is ...to make great music ...for a market that's super picky and selfish and has ADD" it is likely that if I succeed at doing this I will not be booed off stage or criticized but will be rewarded for mirroring, reinforcing and legitimizing the status quo.
What about vision? What about challenging the frenetic, unconscious consumption and self absorption of our age? Creating intimacy begins with being anchored in one's self and Seth's words do not evoke a deep sense of connection or clarity within me.
I, too, am sick and tired of hearing that we should give our work away, and be thankful that people are listening. Let me take away what your passion is, the one You live off friend, and say 'well just be thankful people are interested in the fact you just exist.'
You're an author? OK then, don't accept a dime from your work ever, EVER! Give it to charity, or put your work online digitally so everyone can read your intensively researched and written work (which, by your standards, you would have had to have done after your day job).
Somehow, I suspect you wouldn't do this. Practice what you preach and I may have time for your ideology.
To me, it is BS (as someone above has already noted): that we should not make an income out of our hard work and SELF FINANCED labour and create false 'intimacy' with a handful of people (by its very nature, intimacy, can only be such with a small number of relationships) is spreading because 'they' that retail this notion don't have any other solution, so they accept the 'status quo' and say, 'work, create, slave away, do it all, then give it away and treasure the journey.' What New Age BS!!!
I don't buy into this BS!
Have a nice day, as you obviously can afford to!
Jon
In all honesty, I enjoyed reading the comments here more than I enjoyed your Q and A with Seth.
Where am i at?
Going! to replace my income as a Home Visit Vet as a singer songwriter. And then live that dream, in abundance.
(note: I said 'going to'- not trying to, or hoping to.)
Marketing is the magic ingredient!!!
How do I know?
I built my home visit vet biz from nix, broke even in two years, and now, 3 +1/2 years along, I make a comfortable living, and can buy some goodies from my home studio! This was my virgin business, by the way.
(note: the losses I made good were from my investment in traveling to the USA several times from Oz to attend top end training in 'relationship marketing'- actually this was focused on MLM, from which I made not a cent, BUT the training in how to build relationships with people has been integral to my success.)
The most important aspect of marketing is connecting with people, and taking an interest in them. This is the basis of all successful Word of Mouth marketing.
Another face of marketing is the ability to write words that draw people in- sales copy... Flyers, posters etc.
The HEART of marketing is loving what you do, and letting yourself shine.
I produced and recorded my first CD last year- and I have sold bugger all.
Part of this is because I have not built the structures to support my growing a list. And part is because of ongoing health challenges, my ongoing recovery from Chronic fatigue Syndrome.
I have had good feedback, and my next step is to record live music in a series of house concerts, in my home... I am going to import some special guest musicians, and pay very particular attention to how I shape the feel and vibe...
Every facet of it.
Why?
To create an unforgettable experience. To build connection. To build a list, person by person, in person. And then give those people reason to invite their friends to join in.
I will give away music- mp3's, lowfi fragments of my heart and soul. I will give them away freely, joyfully.
And then I will offer the value in investing in physical CD's- that are mastered, and high quality.
With ebooks and secret tracks, and anything else i can possibly think of to add value, as part of the package.
Now- to receive the gift of my music for free, people will have to give me the gift of an opportunity to strike up a conversation with them in return.
And I will give all my new tribe the opportunity to invest in other, *special* things that allow them a deeper relationship with my music- a print on demand coffee table book with lyrics, and the stories behind the songs, and photo's of the band etc they can get nowhere else...
But before I do that, I will give them lots of value for free. In every way i can.
My Vet Business is growing at better than 20% a year now, and all this through the greatest financial crisis of our generation.
My music business will grow, too.
Thanks to you all for such a great conversation, TreeBrother.
Great point on the change in music evaluation. The extensive music communities and blogs have demolished the value of appraisals from the likes of Rolling Stone Magazine, that gave status to music. Making way for social music, which like Amazon's "if you like this....." allows music from all genres to get an equal and more democratic voice, but not due to a higher degree of scrutiny, intensifies the classification. Nice post, thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the post Derek.Question,is Seth a writer or is he a musician as well?How many songwriters/musicians tell writers what to write?,none i guess.If Seth was a musician,would he hold the same opinion?I guess not.We all want to be stars and be praised for what we do.We all have dreams that's why we came into this buisness that holds no guaranty's.It's a well known fact--It's who you know,and not what you have.If songwriters wrote great songs (to change one's life.Songs that were so diverse,songs that were full of crap)record companies wouldn't know what to do.You'd have to go underground.So i say to all musicians and songwriters here.Follow your Hearts and do what you want to do.Be commercial if you want success,or whatever!You will find your own niche.If Seth is in town invite him to your gig front seat and welcome him to jam.
My success comes as soon as I finish writing a song.If you let other people define your success, then you are a slave to their rythym.Please remember: SUCSESS IS THE JOURNEY, NOT THE DESTINATION.ENJOY THE RIDE.
Has it ever been just about the music? A gr8 discussion.. thanks for sharing.
Seth said: "Feeling like a loser is part of being an artist[...}" That's just simply not true. I've been an artist for 34 years and yet "never made", and I NEVER felt like a loser, ever! Feeling like a loser is being part of being a loser. If that's your choice, so be it. It never was my choice and that makes me a winner.
Also read Walter Thomas' post: "My success comes as soon as I finish writing a song.If you let other people define your success, then you are a slave to their rythym.Please remember: SUCSESS IS THE JOURNEY, NOT THE DESTINATION.ENJOY THE RIDE."
Yes success comes from doing art, not selling art! An artist is not an artist because of how much art he/she sells, but because he/she creates art.
Granted I haven't read Seth's book yet, but where he's wrong, he's wrong.
I must say I love the initial answer from Seth "Very good music is unheard every day, because very good music is not in short supply. There's a huge surplus of it". he has got the nail on the head. Cream always rises to the top, along with the occasional *&!@, however if you have great music, it will not go unheard or unnoticed.
"great music MUST Change your life", I love this one also, as it HAS TO! if I am going to invest my time in an act or an album via commercially funding it or promoting it, I just have to know its a sellable product and one that rises above the good music, it's a waste of time otherwise.
Derek- you say that "People often use price as an indicator of quality"...this sometimes is the case, however, if you look at radioheads recent campaign, they gave the consumer a choice to place a price on their album, a self bidding/buying campaign. The fact is that this was a great promotional tool and the band made profit from that alone in terms of positive publicity. They did this because they were an already made viable & commercially successful world wide band. If an upcoming acts did this, you would have to question the quality. so in many ways it is a catch 22. however, certain acts must consider this...are they a live band who will cash in on touring- therefore they can go down a route at selling cds at reduced cost, or are they an album/cd band who are at their best on the radio/stereo, whereby they must make back what they put in on the production and recording costs etc.
very good interview.
Thanks for sharing,
Linda
All of this stuff is really subjective, isn't it? Going back to the 60's, when I was a young whipper-snapper, there were the best bands ever. Some people though, thought that they were too "far out", "not commercial enough", etc. They wanted more of the 1910 Fruit-Gum Company's "Luvvy, Luvvy, Luvvy I've Got Love In My Tummy" etc. As a long-time failure I can tell you one thing that is more true today than ever. Get some asses in the seats, then worry about your record. If they won't buy a ticket, or if you don't or can't gig, they are not ever gonna give a shit about you or your music. Best wishes and good luck in "the business". Oh, and go to CDBABY and play my song titled "Hello Music Business". It's good for a laugh.
Addendum: The CD is titled THINK...and I work under the name J.R. Wilbur.
People constantly 'hear' what they consider "good (or OK) music", but won't invest time or money into that artist. But what someone considers "great music" will inspire them to really 'listen', and listen again and again. The problem remains, that if what someone considers "great music" is (illegally) readily and easily available for free, how is it possible for that art form, (genre, music, whatever you want to call it) to sustain itself? If someone 'hears' something they like and wants to 'listen' to it whenever they like, they must, in my opinion, be prepared to pay for the privilege. Illegal file sharing is killing great music. If given the choice, which sadly they are, the general public will not pay for music when they can (with a few clicks of a mouse) have it for free. Why would they pay?! Sadly, some of the biggest file sharers I know are musicians! Not through Limewire or such, through simply swapping portable hard drives full of data with their friends and acquaintances. I agree with Andrew Keen (Author of The Cult Of The Amateur) in that there needs to be some sort of "gate keeper". To me this gate keeper takes the form or position of closing the gate on illegal file/data sharing. You can currently stream, stream, hear as much music as you can... great! But when someone decides they like something, and they 'want' it, they should have no option but to deal with the creator or distributor of that media to purchase the right to 'listen' and enjoy it again and again. Purchase price may just be the purchaser's email address, but the price is the price. If you don't like the price and or terms and conditions, don't purchase! Surely, surely in this digital age, the technology is available to securely and successfully encrypt music if so desired by the creators or distributors?! Food now has to have full traceability, why can't we make specific data digitally traceable?! And before someone jumps down my neck about 'Big Brother' scenarios... if I create something, technology should allow me to decide how and where it's available. Why? Because it's mine! If an Artist wants to give away their creation for free, fine. If they put a value on it, decide they want to get paid for it and someone steals it, it's theft, plain and simple. Responsibility and accountability have (once again) been removed. Don't get me started on the banking system!
This comment started out as a one-liner.
hi!
in your interview with this fellow he says, "I'm not equating 'great' with 'commercial'."
unfortunately in a country like the USA (and many others)"great" means commercially bigtime successful at least 97 percent of the time even if it's NOT.(great)
people here (and in others) literally worship fame, popularity and commercial success just like they do in high school, and usually for most of the wrong reasons. how about BAD songs that made it BIG. there are literally thousands and tens of thousands of them everywhere. people in general are slaves and worship like moths to a flame. throw in some big backing and media raving, and the worship begins to overflow. a real artist or true musician
makes his or her music and art because they want to make these things. the ones who stick with it MAY actually amount to something.
I'm in a deadend job, I really need to take some advice and get some small business going! =) I need to find a niche small company of some sort.
Desensitization from an overabundance of opinions is a currently prevailing trait of our society. To remove this barrier, simply, and I use that term lightly, dig deep and share your feelings and experiences with others and ultimately your audience. Rinse, repeat.
I think it depends on your audience. I don't feel I can second guess the minds of mine. All I can do is think "what would I do? what do I want as a listener?". And hope that my audience is like me.
I'm not that interested in going to live gigs. I'm much more interested in putting on headphones, closing my eyes and being immersed in a world that an artist has created, where every sound has been lovingly crafted. Or listening to a performance that is the artist at their best. I'm not that interested going to see a performance that may or may not be that great or where all the magic and subtitles of the studio sound are gone.
At any rate with niche music (like jazz, non-genre rock or some other hybrid) I don't think the economics of live playing supports the idea that musicians can make their living playing live. There are not enough venues to support it and the profit margin for playing niche music live is too small to make it viable as a money making venture.
You play for an hour or two and get paid for that, but that's only a fraction of the actual time you need to spend getting ready for the gig and getting two and from the venue. Fees are normally split between the band members. Do the maths, its not a good living let alone a real money maker.
So I'm not sure Seth is on the right track when he talks about selling an intimate experience, if what he means is a live experience. Unless you're aiming at a pretty commercial market, the figures don't add up. Unless of course that experience happens on a recording, but then you're back to selling control of the music and I think Seth is probably right about that aspect.
If you play niche music, perhaps the answer is not to try and make a decent living from it. All the niche musicians I know (quite a few are very famous in their field) need to teach, do film music, pop sessions or have some other form of income that is not their own music. Then they spend their own money to fund the production of their albums. Seen on a commercial level, its crazy, but its the only way to make it work now for most niche music.
I heard that even Pat Metheny (one of the biggest selling jazz artists ever) is now playing with just himself and a laptop because the economics just don't support having a whole band anymore. Replacing CD sales with live performance as a way of making money is just not realistic for niche music.
If we niche musicians (jazz, non-genre rock, hybrid folk, world etc...) are going to survive, I think we need to get creative about how we make money from our music, how we play live and sell recordings. We can't use the old system, but at the moment there isn't a new one - we'll have to invent it.
Whew! So many replies!
Everyone "Giving away what they have to say". Valuable, intimate information here.
While your blog is free to read, I'd consider buying a book with ALL the blog replies just to have it as a tchoke to recall all the wisdom presented here.
And, for the instrumental writers, there are plenty of songs that have moved me. "No Matter What Shape Your Stomach's in" makes me smile every time. If the Theme from Star Wars doesn't move you, you got no soul. Some John McLaughlin stuff is a wilder trip than...uh not that I'd know...
Wasn't there some band that released a CD & let their fans determine what they wanted to pay for it?
Are those guys successful? Can they eke out a living with their music?
They must be poor starving losers.
Like me.
As IF!
Jimi
thesongnet.org
(we give it away free too)
There is a huge difference in good and great.Great is often misused because there are a lot who want to be great,or to produce great music, but not many know how to be original.Great is not trendy.Great can withstand the test of time!Great does not have to be forced down your throat and over hyped and commercialized.Be on the lookout for the "Greatest Hits" coming soon from Paytc paythecreator.com
Right now with the "industry" being in the turmoil it is, and indie's being able to gain more ground than ever before, there are also many, many books being written - and sold! - advising us indie's on how to make a successful career of our music.
I find it slightly humorous how most advise us to give away our music while they're NOT giving away their "advice".
Does that then mean they're advice has greater value than our music? I DOUBT THAT!
Michael
I think it's great to compose and arrange music. It helps with one's need for certain types of therapy that remedies that which is otherwise not remediable.The greater the remedy the greater the piece of art.Obviously whether it is liked or not by 'fans' is irrelevant.
It is doubtful whether the vast majority of 'music fans' have any sensitivity to intrinic musical values- they are more connected to and identified with fad values as is all pop culture.
To publish or not to publish these compositions, that is the question! It costs money to do so and to have people scoop them up for nothing just adds insult to injury. I have hundreds of unpublished compositions- that may or may not be liked by the populous out there- I don't really care- but until I can be satisfied that I will not be giving away art that others may or may not appreciate- then it will remain where it is - unpublished.In any event items obtained for nothing are usually not valued much by the receiver.
As far as I am concerned the very existence in my archives of this work satisfies me that it has served its primary purpose.
Frank
I just have to say this... For some reason people think music comes from the Heavens and gets converted just before it hits Earths atomosphere into CD's and mp3's.
Outside of the creative process, music has to go through a production process that costs hard earned cash. I love singing for free... I just open my mouth and sing. It doesn't cost a cent and it makes people happy.
But when I PURCHASE recording equipment, PURCHASE the skill a Mastering Engineer, PURCHASE the resources of CDBaby, etc... It ads up... and it ads up BIG.
Yes, free would be GREAT during even one of those things....
"In any event items obtained for nothing are usually not valued much by the receiver." - Frank Boyd
Something I learned a long time ago, when I thought it best to give away my music. Since I am only a conduit how could I charge for it? (my former thinking)
Then a person wiser than I spoke a similar sentence as quoted above.
It's not a shameful thing to require money for a CD. After all, you're not charging for the music - it is above any monetary value - you're charging for your own cost of getting the music affixed to a medium and packaging it. Isn't that worth ROI?
Michael
The number of passionate replies here is significant. We care about art--about making it, sharing it, giving and receiving it. For all the pain and confusion that's arisen as the music industry has shattered, the resilience of the artistic spirit is something to be celebrated.
Instead of "great" or "good", I wonder whether we might start using new words such as "meaningful", "wise", "truthful". Songs can be seen as teachers ...and the right teacher for one person is not the right teacher for another. Some teachers only reach small numbers; that does not mean they do not change lives.
Part of learning to live well as an artist is learning how to tend the garden we have (Leonard Cohen used that metaphor in speaking about his career), wherever it happens to be and to the extent we can given our circumstances. Sometimes we will sell what we grow, sometimes we will give it away. In the largest universal scheme, it does not matter...what does matter however is that the artists be able to contribute to the greater good of solving the enormous problems facing humanity.
Thank you Seth and Derek for such nourishing food for thought. And best wishes to you all.
If you are playing music and people are listening, that is your reward!
The alternative is to sit home and play for one's self, and no one likes that idea. For every artist that turns down sharing their music for free, there's a dozen more that wouldn't hesitate.
I liked Derek's recommendation some time back-"tell the audience that your music is so special, you don't want them to leave the show without your new CD. Tell them if they can't buy it, they should just take one." I've never made more money on my CDs since doing that. Think outside the box, folks.
I am a big player in the creation of this free music thing. Sorry...it never occured to me where it would go. Relix Magazine (my baby for over 22 years) was started as a tape-trading newsletter. Grateful Dead fans were so inspired by the band's music, they had to take it home with them. This dates back to the late '60s. The band didn't allow taping, but creative Deadheads figured out a way to get those shows taped. Eventually, the band provided a taper's section, and all was right with the world. Tape trading was the single thing that gave the Dead the platform with which to get their music out there, thus increasing their fan base tremendously.
As Jerry Garcia said, "Once the music is out there, I'm done with it, they can have it..."
We (Relix) started a record label in 1980. How tough do you think it was to sell albums (and eventually, CDs) to tapers? Hot Tuna, New Riders, Flying Burrito Brothers, Johnny Winter, Savoy Borwn---all zippo. 20 years with a record label that couldn't sell music because people would record one copy and give it to everyone they knew. So, what is one to expect in the world of Internet connection?
By the way, I get at least one check every month for my music from CDBaby!!! It isn't much, but it buys my guitar strings.
peace, love, light & MUSIC!
Toni Brown
Great is in the ear of the listener, of course, and the definition is simple: if it spreads, then for this market, it's great.
Does he mean spread as in people listening or spread as in people purchasing? In my mind there is a big difference.
I'm assuming he means spreading by listening because if he means spreading by money changing hands he is making the traditional argument.
Lastly, the artist only controls one side of the equation. There are cultural cycles -- times when people are more open minded, and times when people are more closed off. Our culture is not static. It is important, in my opinion, to point out that great music can be made during a culturally conservative time and it can/will/might be discovered later.
Speaking for myself, I'm just thankful for the gift that G-d has given me.
Reff:
http://bible.cc/philippians/4-11.htm
Music itself should be intimate or there’s nothing to talk about here. There’s no need – or way – to value-add intimacy to music. In some ways, music is as intimate as a physical affection. Great art routinely puts its experiencer in touch with his own mortality; it doesn’t get much more intimate than that. So, I’ll push back on Seth to the extent that if the work itself isn’t intimate, you don’t/can’t have very good or great music in the first place.
For me, it has to be about selling the recording. At this stage in my life as an independent, niche artist, it doesn’t make sense for me to be a touring musician. My medium is the studio, and I put huge amounts of work, skill, and emotion into it. I need to get paid for it in order to get to the next project. It’s that simple. Even with a day job, a musician like me needs to make the work pay for itself. So giving it away to the end consumer is not an option. Certainly I can make friends with my audience via blogging, social media, and creating a compelling web experience. To the extent that I can afford the time, I can post generous clips (amazon’s 30-sec clips are, frankly, insulting to the user), offer live tracks and radio edits as free downloads, post videos, etc, etc.
I think many of us are spoiled by the legacy of the 60s and 70s, when creativity was actively solicited by a music industry flush with profits and a consumer base hungry for what they were offering. But what SG fails to acknowledge here is that it takes a lifetime of focused dedication to one’s art – craft and vision – to be great. The DIY indie niche person simply doesn’t have the time to leave and breathe the music. Does anyone really think that our current music biz model is gonna produce a Keith Jarrett, Bob Dylan, or Joni Mitchell? Maybe it’s time for me to stop pining for Motown and simply accept that music is reverting back to a folk art, a tribal expression. That in itself, of course, is a beautiful thing. But so is music as art. And I miss that. All I can take from Godin is that -- to the extent that I can -- I need to make great art and forget banging my head against the wall to make commerce of it. And I’d love to do just that, but I need the money to make the next record.
Or, I can just log off and go play the piano upstairs.
This article made me feel much better about how we, The Browncoats, are selling our music in the convention market, instead of in music stores. We are taking ourselves to the conventions - offering our music and our handshakes and our party shinagegans with the fans, and that's why it is working and selling. Seth is dead right with this article!!
Sometimes 'reality' really hurts...
Seth is basically saying that because people aren't buying music anymore, we as artists have to find creative ways to get our music out there. I've released two albums, both professionally mixed & Mastered, Artwork, & Packaged. I spent alot of $$ to put out the best possible product, & I have had to give most of them away. Honestly, I'm not sure how I can even continue to finance my passion (recording costs, etc.) What's crazy is that most of the outlets to perform are asking me to pay them to do so. Radio Stations want $$, it seems like I'm being extorted to fullfill my passion..But the Reality is that people just don't really BUY music anymore & we as artists have to roll the dice by giving away music in hopes that it will blow up. But in the meantime how do we afford to keep producing the music. I don't hve be rich at music, but I wanna at least make a living off of it. And everybody's making money off my music but ME.
I think this is the most childish opinion I read in a long time.
As if "good" and "bad" were objective things such as black and white.
Who would determine what was "very good" or "great"?
If you asked 50 random people if Mariah Carey was great in their opinion, guess what? You will hear both that she is the greatest and that she is the worst and that "I don´t care, am into country".
It´s about targeted marketing.
nice one, the best thing i've read in a long time....and so true
"Spreading the Music and Selling Intimacy"
Seth, is this a literal or a figurative message? Are you suggesting musicians actually give all of their music away via downloads, CDs - whatever format? Do you really mean this would be equivalent to smelling the bread while walking past the bakery? Or admiring a label on the wine bottle? Well, in my experience, If I want true intimacy with that bread, I've got to walk in and pay for a loaf. Or to experience what your buddy, Hugh MacLeod, calls the "social object" of wine (the conversation that goes on while drinking the wine) then I've got to pick up the bottle beneath the label I am admiring and pay for it.
Or are you referring to the age old Madison Ave. tactic of "gentlemen, we're not selling soap here. Oh, no! We're selling the tide of happiness - clean, fresh, happiness washing over that housewife as she pours powder from this bright orange box with the big blue "Tide" logo. Yes, sir, what we are selling to Jane, here, is a lifestyle experience and that little woman's gonna thank us for it. She won't even mind when we charge more than our competition does for the experience we've convinced her she needs and can have. And that, gentlemen, is what we call marketing!"
If this is the intended analogy, then ok, we'll sell or "position" the "intimacy" experience to the customer, but does every housewife really get the box of "Tide" for free? Every physical box of Tide becomes a loss leader? Every download/cd/sheet music - is a loss leader?
Seth, If you really think musicians should give away their pretty good, very good, or doubtfully "great" music and then sell intimacy - the souvenir, the memory - then I have a very uncomfortable statement and request to make.
Here goes: Over the course of the past year and a half, I have purchased many of your books from Amazon. I estimate I've spent around $75. No problem, I like paying for books, CDs, magazines - I'm a boomer. I like to handle things, smell the paper, read the credits and liner notes, support the author, the painter, the musician, and even the sidewalk artist. I've retweeted many of your posts. I've joined your blog. If I want to comment on one of your blog posts, I have to "Digg" it and post my comments there. What's the intimacy in doing that?
So, Seth, if you really think that I should give away my compositions/recordings - as average as you may view them, and then work at evoking the casual listener to pay real money to feel close to me - I'd like you to do the same -
You did make me feel connected to you when you offered to send a free promo copy of "Linchpin" to those on your blog-feed list who made a minimum of $30 donation to the charity Acumen Foundation that helps seed entrepreneurs in 3rd world countries. Brilliant idea! You admitted on the front end that you'd rather spend your promotion dollars in that way, and those of us who received the book would talk about the book - this would be more valuable publicity than hiring an expensive firm. And it made me feel valuable.
So, wouldn't the parallel to the musician's dilemma be for you to continue to give away your books, create warm feelings from your fans by having them donate to the charity? You sold intimacy, didn't you? But what about your mortgage and living expenses? Maybe you no longer need to be concerned with those things, but every starving artist or middle class musician I know does. If you really want to practice what you are preaching, why not reimburse everyone who has bought your books, or are you convinced that they were really buying intimacy?
Respectfully,
Pam Mark Hall
Last weekend I was playing my own songs, plus cover songs at a gig. When I finished playing one of my own songs, this girl came up to me and asked "what's the name of the last song you sang, and who did it?" I said, "That's one of my songs, "Driving Home". She said, "I love that song, so I gave her my CD. She came back and gave me a $20 tip,,,,,it was a very intimate moment. (not because of the tip)
Creating special moments over and over again for audiences is what I think "great" is. The person or persons creating a momentous and special moment with their art give us the feelings that this is "great!"
Thanks again for all of your uplifting and helpful insights, Derek
Firstly, the evidence is that people ARE buying music - MP3 sales are growing year on year, even though there is no copy protection, and it's all freely available from p2p sites - so it's not clear that it is 'game over' for selling recorded music.
Secondly, if you look at what is commercially successful - even if you ignore recorded music sales and focus just on live performance - it's evident that what is successful is - mostly - not the great.
It's a mix of the genuinely great, the genuinely appalling, and an awful lot of good-to-very-good - but, crucially, well-marketed acts.
And that is the depressing part of the story for artists - marketing counts more than you would like it to - even if that is the kind of very targeted marketing you get from an indie - it's having an 'in' with the right blogs, DJs, radio stations.
As for the whole 'selling the experience' thing - I don't think it will fly. It presumes that there is a demand for the 'experience' or that one can be created that is economically viable.
When we consider recorded music, recording an album with 2000 sales, globally, is viable. A site like emusic makes that more so - I find myself buying Icelandic and Finnish folk music, or bedroom IDM from Cologne, in a way I never would when these things had to be physically imported.
Yet touring to 2000 fans, globally, is near impossible - major cities like London, or specialist festivals that bring the fans to one place for one day.
Now, Seth, as a marketeer, is probably fairly uninterested in the viability of the 2000 sales artist - they need to concentrate on becoming the next Radiohead or Britney or Kanye or Beatles or Miles or Grateful Dead.
Me - I think that's a pretty boring world, where you need to be big to survive.
Another problem is that experiences, souvenirs, etc, suggest a fan relationship, yet the vast majority of people's relationship to music is casual, pop, disposable - even towards 'serious' artists, and great music.
Your 39 year old co-worker who has just discovered Vampire Weekend listens to them in her car on the way to work and back, but isn't going to buy a T-shirt, or see them live - especially not with having to arrange a baby-sitter, travel back into town on a week night, etc. Your Dad has a copy of the Fleet Foxes album because it was on the radio and sounds like CSN&Y. Your Sister has a few MGMT tracks because they were used on that show . . . these casual fans are important to the musical economy, and I don't think that increasing the income from 'real fans' is going to make up the gap.
(Of course some people secretly hope that this will drive out all the 'plastic' bands - ignoring the fact that Madonna, Spice Girls, Britney, etc, were all years ahead in terms of merchandising and live show income)
"great" means always striving for authenticity, it means singing songs which not only emotionally challenge the audience but also the preformer; it means being yourself at all times on and off stage; not always easy. Most musicians want attention, money, repect, sales etc. the fact is that their are far too many singer songwriters out there who will never be "great" only very good because- if a song is a slice of pie its the pastry that counts!
I like the thoughts of Seth Godin. Perhaps have we been fooled (by the so called web marketing gurus) to believe that if we just promote right, we can sell anything (like our good or very good music) in big quantities on the web. I don't know about you, but I have become much more critical when I choose what music I will listen to and download. I never download a track just because it's free. My time is limited, and I want the great stuff only. So, I think Seth is right when he wants us to create great music instead of spending a lot of time trying to promote and sell not so great music...
Soooo well done, Derek! I printed this out and put it in my studio! LOL Thank you! Great job.
There is a lot of mechanical, over-processed trash making millions and a lot of great music going unnoticed. I personally can make a lot more money playing dorky covers of old rock songs at parties than I can with real art. But that stopped being fun a long time ago. There are a lot of great artists that will never make it big financially. For one thing, you need to be 18 years old and built like a brick house to catch the attention of record labels. And most 18 year old artists aren't that great. Things are changing in the music world. I have no idea where it will go, but if I have fun with my music, then I am successful. If I have to get rich to be successful, I think there are fields that I would be better off spending my time in. Like law school or medical school. Starting some kind of internet company. Or maybe running for a government office.......
Love godins thoughts...and i agree one hundred percent.
I don't know for how many i speak for but i will venture to say that it is for the majority of music creators and players..... i know that when i started to play money was the least of my concern. Just playing and entertaning others ... seeing them enjoy what you were doing for them was amazing.The joy that it broght you was an experience you just could not buy.The love and joy that i experienced when i saw others play and entertain me at a gathering or whatever it might have been was something that i wanted to share with others.... some how i think that has been lost and so.... instead of making music for the sheer love of it ...i think that most people make music to become a rock star or how rich they can become or how many girls they can meet...rather than the love of music.As a result the music has suffered imensly.
A lot of what Seth says makes a lot of sense. But I am having a hard time reconciling this with a couple things I also know to be true: the world is usually changed from the bottom up, not the top down, so making a big splash in business does not equate with changing the status quo.
And when it comes to art, much of what we consider great was once considered garbage, often for long after the artist had passed until the rest of the world caught up.
OR, maybe I just don't get it! haha
I don't know man! I can't sell a damn thing. That's why I've given up. People just want what's familiar to them, the commercial crap. I don't think anyone including all you artists out there give a crap about anybody's original work unless it fits your difinition of good, great, etc.
I just don't have a business mind for the "business" end of music, maybe because I value my art so much that I can't put a price on it. I can only give it away for the time being and hope people will catch on.
Not such a fan of this one. Either Seth isn't an artist, or hasn't reached a level of true artistic integrity. Great means finding your unique artistic voice and giving voice to that and not being swayed by what others do or say. I don't care if I make any more money in music, as long as I live a life where I express music that is authentic to what my artist voice is I'm happy. I'd much rather feel successful to my artistic goals than commercial goals - as Seth seems to be... Being an artist means putting the initial artistic inspiration, the need to create and express from a place that is uniquely you ahead of your fear of not making money with your art. To not manipulated by so much cultural conditioning that comes our way these days even in the form of 'how to make a living as a musician'. There are as many different ways to make a living as a musician as there are musicians. I think you should go what's right for you and let other people live out their "musicians should..." lists.
Not sure who Seth is. I haven't researched that. It's obvious he is quite sure he has all the answers! He is probably working in "the business" by his reference to music companies paying to play music on the radio. Those of us who worked in that industry know payola didn't stop in the fifties as we were all led to believe. Those who did much research learned the Music Biz has been traditionally about making money first and producing great music second. Now the control of the music and the music biz has all changed and shifted. Thanks to the internet, a easy to reach world wide audience and several other avenues to success, a record deal is no longer the end all catch all to "making it" in the music Biz. Outlets for music that bypass the traditional music companies (like CD Baby which Seth blasts) are a great and yes I did say great avenue for talented songwriters and musicians to get their music out and make a few bucks while they are at it. I can attest in direct contradiction to what Seth said that there is at least one artist on CD Baby producing great music right now. A friend and I have road tripped all over the state of Florida to see the guy numerous times. I personally started his Facebook fanclub just because I am now a huge Fan. I don't think Seth gets to decide what is "Great." I am not sure what gives him that qualification. Musical Greatness would have to be in the Ear of the beholder. The more Ears that consider something great, I guess the greater it is.
Bottom line is neither I nor Seth nor anyone else really gets to decide who is great or who "Makes it" anymore. Now it's the public at large who get to decide who the great artists are. The internet is a fantastic promotion tool for an artist. An artist is no longer as dependent on a record company to promote them like in the old days. A singer songwriter could potential reach out and build a fan base through the internet. Not just a local fan base like before but a world wide one. A point of illustration is young Korean guitarist Sungha Jung who I recently discovered on Youtube. I think he is like 11 or 12 years old and a phenomenal guitar player extraordinaire. In the old days would anyone have even known about this kid? They would have sent a tape to a record company. Some excited dude would have brought it the record executives who would have discussed things like marketability and fan base, cost vs profit. They would have probably filed the tape in file 13 where I am sure a lot of great artists ended up over the years. Now that's all changed. The Great ones will rise to the top on the internet. Just another songwriter's opinion,
signed, Robert Arnett, Sarasota
I believe in giving.
According to my information money will be abolished within the next 50 years...
Is difficult to walk into the restaurant and order a food you've never tasted before, except you are advert dependent. You hear good music, love it and look for your copy and spread the artist.Every true musician is a preacher of some sort.You can't love music without hearing it somewhere - let the music flow on man!Godin is the game!
I am just sick of the Seths of the world. What makes you the God that decides what is "great?" Saying that virtually nothing on cdbaby is great is a pompous and arrongant statment and an insult to all the musicians and songwriters reading this blog. You define "great" as being "life changing." Well, geting married or having a kid is life changing. It's a tall order to expect an artist to change your life. Only you can change your life.
I don't have to change your life to be considered great, nor is it my goal to be "life changing." I simpy try to write songs that move people. My favorite movies and books move me, and have nothing to do with "changing my life."
I am tired of the Seths of the world looking down from above. One man's fair is another man's great and visa versa.
The only thing I walk away from with this interview is that there is yet one more self rightous ass out there who thinks they have all the answers.
Well the answer ain't blowin' in the wind baby, and it sure ain't comin' out of your blowhole.
Historically I see no evidence that great music sells better than good or even mediocre music.
Is Seth suggesting that somehow in the new circumstances we are in, this has changed?
If so on what grounds? Where is the evidence of this?
Great is a bit of a meaningless word here. One persons great music is another person's trite disposable pop.
History points to one definition of great that arguably holds some water. But who can say what is great in current music? Isn't it a matter of opinion?
Then are we not really talking about what is popular rather than great? If we are, great is the wrong word to use.
Antiphones, amen, you followed my post with eloquent truth, and yours and other comments here only confirm that it is the Seth Godins of the world that passed on the Beatles. It is the Seth Godin's of the world that told Elvis not to quit his day job as a truck driver. It is the Seth Godins of the world that pissed on The Ramones and wrote them off as talentless punks as they worked their asses off all the way into the rock n roll hall of fame. It is the Seth Godins of the world who passed on Elton John and snikered that a piano playing rock star would never fly. It's the Seth Godins of the world who initially wrote off Bruce Springsteen as a Bob Dylan Wanna be, and on that same note crucified John Hammond for signing Bob Dylan and labeled Dylan as "Hammonds Folly." It is the Seth Godins of the world, who when they start driveling their worthless drool, you just flip them the bird, say #$%^ you and have a nice life, walk away and stay true to your art and your work, knowing inside that what you do IS great, and his opinion is like the ass#$%# we all have.
Awesome!!!!!
Thanks Derek and another good one!
Been enjoying reading the story this afternoon and the post some folks put up. Some do make a good point of Seth not being a musician. One can sell anything I guess if you are good at selling. Ah yes, money and art well, as someone who is very successful told me, “Bill, we did not go into music for the money”. So very true and as the years roll on by it sure weeds out the ones that want to fame fast.
But if you do want to make a living doing music you do have to have your eyes wide open and be able to learn all kinds of things that do not have a thing to do with music per say. I remember a lawyer asking me if I had a business plan and I told me no, I don’t have any money. Well the truth is I spend about a week building one. Because if a money guy comes up to me and likes my music he very well might ask, “Do you have a business plain?” So Point made and a good one.
That being said I remember at one dinner we had at the Future of Music conference in DC. Everyone had to stand up and tell everyone who they were. I did not want to bull anyone so I said, “Bill Hudson starving musician.” Just then my food came right in front of me like manna from heaven. Everyone got a real good laugh on that but you never know what life will hand you.
So keep writing no matter what, so matter how little money you have. The ears out there are hunger for good music. Oh and keep your sense of humor, it helps.
Still Pickin'
Bill Hudson
selling intimacy -- coldplay did a beautiful job of this recently. they put up a massive amount of personal stuff for a xmastime charity online auction, and raised a whopping £250K or something. the stuff had a lot of value to real fans, stuff like the famous globe from the cover of parachutes. really cool result from some guys with a lot of heart, not to mention Great music.
Seth sounds a lot like Simon Cowell on Idol. Lot's of hot air from someone who thinks he knows music. I sell on CD Baby, iTunes, etc. If it makes me smile and I get a couple of fans and dollars it is a great song to me.
Interesting comments from all. I work for a classical label and the label actually has invested quite a bit to create audiences online via social media. We were in the black for all of 2009 if that helps you realize the power of building a tightly-knitted group of fans.
Great post Derek! Thanks for sharing!
So where can I get the FREE download of linchpin?
A great song is one that gives ya the goosebumps
Also a "great" Vs "a very good song" is totally subjective.
You only need to find 1000 people who find your stuff great..ala 1000 true fans.
Make the best music you can and back it up live.
This is my third post here based on this tool who calls himself Seth Godin. With all due respect to Derek, I think it was irresponsible posting this interview, and from the negative feedback of all these hard working artists here I think I am confirmed in my belief. Derek, you built from the bottom up an amazing and very succesful online record store called cdbaby, of which I would garner to wage most of us here sell our albums on. Is it because you have long since sold it that you post this interview with this arrogant hack blathering on that there is "virtually no great music on cdbaby?" Gee, thank's for nothin Godin, you waste of human space. Wouldn't that be just great if all potential cd buyers out there could read your drivel and blow off that site and leave those of us who sell the majority of our cds (such as me) high and dry.
I encourage all artists here to boycott whatever this punk Godin sells, and whatever it is I can only assume none of it's "great' so why bother.
I wonder Derek, if you would have posted this or edited Godin's rip on cdbaby if you still owned it.
Just curious.
The sniff of fresh bread?
The voyager on a journey is walking up the street to an unknown destination, all he has is a loaf of bread and one gold coin.
It's lunchtime, he's kind of hungry and a delicious scent of food comes drifting out the window of a restaurant.
The voyager stops and decides to eat a piece of bread from the loaf he is carrying and sniffing at the same time the delicious scent of, let's say, roast beef.
Now out comes the owner of the restaurant, who asks the voyager: what are you doing? Don't you want to buy one of our delicious meals?
The voyager says 'no, all I have is this loaf of bread and one gold coin I'm keeping in order to pursue my journey.'
The restaurant owner asks to see the coin, the voyager agrees and hands out the coin, the owner inspects it, checks both sides, feels the warm metal in his fingers and seems to be in admiration in front of the shiny golden object...and with a smile hands back the coin to the voyager and says "wow thanks, that was great !"
Thanks Derek for your support
Illuminating!
One last thought. No one and I mean no one knows what "great' is.
Van Gough couldn't give away his paintings and died considering himself and his work miserable failures.
Today his paintings are worth millions.
Was his art considered "great" while he was alive? Hardly.
My point is made that Godin is full of @$&)and any artists here who suck up to his views that everything on cdbaby is mediocre and we should just give it all away because we don't deserve money for our efforts is a brown nose and a hack.
Actually I have a huge amount of respect for Seth Godin, I've read a lot of his blog and seen most of his youtube stuff. I think he's one of the smartest people out there in terms of understanding how internet marketing and social memes work.
I just don't think he's got it right about music because he's putting it into the same box as most other commodities, soap powder, laptops, software etc... and I don't think its the same. I don't think you can do that with any art. You can't quantify art you can't even qualify it objectively (unless you're looking back 50 or 100 years).
He is trying to qualify it by calling some of it great and some of it not great and postulating that if its great it will sell. I don't think the word great here has any meaning, substituting the word popular makes more sense.
Also the idea of selling intimacy doesn't make a lot of sense either. Again what does 'intimacy' mean here? Surely being moved by music is as intimate an experience as you can get. That experience is inherent in the art form already - ie its built into the recording or performance. How does selling souvenirs add to that intimacy?
I think the souvenir thing, especially if its wearable, is about tribalism, not artist to audience intimacy. Some people like to feel branded, be part of a tribe, it makes them feel stronger and safer. Its probably evolutionary programmed. Often exploited by politicians etc... etc...
Seth has some great insights on the tribe thing as anyone who's read his stuff knows. But he's not as far as I can see, applying his ideas on tribalism here. But actually I do think Seth's ideas on tribalism apply here with some types of music (with a proportion of the audience).
I think he's confusing audience/artist intimacy with the primal 'tribe leader' role that a performer can take. The souvenirs do not increase the personal intimacy, they are more like tribal markings, proof of membership. But even this, I think only applies to some types of music and some audiences. Some other kinds of music and audience types don't necessarily follow the tribal rules.
Seth states that:
"Relinquish the opportunity to make money by controlling who can listen and when."
I fully disagree with this. It is a fundamental of copyright law, that I as the creator of the artistic work shall have control over the economic exploitation of the work. I will not relinquish this control, and I strongly recommend to all creative persons that they should do the same.
So I guess Seth Godin won't mind if I steal his book then. As long as people get to read it, right?
Seth can be deep sometimes but once understood, he can really put things in perspective. Simple and easy aren't always the best way to do things. But if what you do comes from the heart, it will be great.
Thanks Derek
A lot of ideas to ponder...thanks for sharing Derek!
A lot of ideas to ponder...thanks for sharing Derek!
A lot of ideas to ponder...thanks for sharing Derek!
With this article, Derek allows his former company cdbaby, and the numerous musicians who helped make it what it is by signing on, to be thrown under the bus.
Love the analogy of selling music as "It would be like a bakery selling the right to sniff the fresh bread or a wine maker selling the right to look at the cool label"
Those who think differently than the past are benefiting from the brave new world we're in now
Andy
ViralGigs.com
its so glad to see some people are still care for audience as compare to artists... i like the first question that u asked and after reading most of ur blogs i admire your efforts for promoting true music and real artists.
You proley won't read this
It comes down to one simple thing. Why are you doing it? Where is your heart. There have been many, many highly successful, rich people that killed themselves. Sad story; they didn't find happiness in success. It starts with your heart. Why are you doing it? Do it because you love it not for what "success" may bring.
Hey Derek,
Remember me, we met at ASCAP, I agree with Seth, when I had 1500 albums made of my first album, "No Fear In Love" I gave away 1400 of them while working as a server in a restaurant, seven days a week in order to make enough money for recording and duplication. It takes time and hard work to give the CD away, it cost nothing to give away mp3's. People love being given a gift. I love to give people gifts, it is in giving that you receive. Love ya.... My new Valentines song, "Baby, You're My Valentine" on itunes 2/10/2010 - Very Excited!
Maybe it's just me, but I hardly ever see people wearing T-shirts or buttons from bands (let alone solo artists) that they like. It costs money and takes time to make t-shirts, buttons, and other merch. Does every band/artist now need a battalion of eager slaves to create and pay for this stuff so that we can concentrate on making music?
Thank you for the above insights. If you enjoy creating, then I think one should just be sincere with your creation(s), it will shine through to others. I have found that there is a an "inverse ratio" with art the more one reaches for success the more it may recede from you. Do the work! enjoy want you do! have no great expectations! & who knows? life'is a gambol!
passion sometimes can be fleeting in the moments when our art is on the line, whether on stage or in an agent's hands. the real truth is that there is never one way but really ONLY one way - determination. undying, never fleating. f* you, i'm amazing and everyone will know it, unchanging determination. that strength will spread and then the music becomes potent
The market is overcrowded with many more musicians/artists than many years ago. You can't keep comparing the past with present, as the context is changed. So, the parameters you measure are changed and have a different meaning.
People nowadays have come to this common idea that music should be free. They have no issue in paying different prices, even very high prices for a book or something else. But when it's about music, even $5 for an album is too much for many. Fact is that music has always been close to free anyway (radio, illegal copies, etc.)
Fact is you need many things to come together to have success: talent, luck, momentum. While many of us would just be happy if they could make a living with what they like. Well, you would have better luck if you invested the same energy you are investing in your music, in starting a business like CD Baby or similar. There are so many would be artists that you could definitely have a successful business (while 90% of those artists will keep starving). And now that you have a successful business, sell it for big bucks. That can sustain you for a long time and you might actually be able to go full-time with your music.
There you go. Dream realized.
There is a new South African act called 'The Antwoord - Feat Ninja and Yo-Landi'.
On the face of it - they conform to none of the attributes most commonly associated with success. Yet they are achieving unprecedented success establishing their own brand. The origins of this success can be found in the attitude that goes
'Some people love us and some hate us. Those that hate us aren't on our level. Its that simple.'
And that's the point. If you believe in what you do - and reach a level of achievement within that belief - you cant lose. It doesn't matter what critics you have - success in terms of recognition will inevitably follow.
If you don't believe in what you do, your not ready to present to others.
I've done the free download thing and my music is being heard and listened to on internet radio stations. I'm past "very good". Not because I think so. Because the feedback I've received from others is saying so. I only lack one thing. The right female singer. The voice to go with the music. THAT will catapult my music into a totally different realm. That will take it from "great music" to "great songs". I have faith in that and nothing anyone says or thinks will change my mind about that because that is a truth that isn't subject to the opinions of detractors or haters. Success is my destiny. The only one who can prevent that from happening is me and I have total faith in the truth.
Great article, and i am more curious at times how we define great, because you feel you have created some excellent work and you are baffled why certain tracks are so hard to promote versus others you thought were not as great..
I disagree with Seth. I like where he's going but I think he stopped well short of the mark.
Technically proficient music is everywhere. It's "ok". It's not hard to learn to play an instrument well enough to write a song to get people interested. It's not hard to figure out what sort of key changes hook a listener, what tempos are best for dancing or what topics people enjoy. In a sense we are all similar machines. And we can all make "ok" or even "very good" music, if "very good" means not dangerous. Not provocative. I propose that "good" means both provocative and dangerous, something exciting whether timeless or not. And "great" means timeless. Straight out of the ether into your hands.
So why shoot for "good"? If "good" is really "average" or proficient do we even need to have it clogging up the arteries of an already obese system? Have you seen the number of painfully average bands with painfully average records out there? You can tell yourself that it's a learning curve, a stepping stone towards great. Whatever you have to do.
Me, I'm sick of seeing it, of hearing bands that know someone and got onto a stage barely rehearsed (oh wait, that was me), that found some money and recorded and released an album that no one needs to ever hear (yup, me too - sorry). Yes it's a jaded opinion but I still manage hear "great" and completely unexpected music around the world.
I think the most important thing about music is the ability to kill it live. Kick ass onstage. Make your mama roll over in her grave.
I see his point about the music "spreading" and so it's great, but disagree. There are so many factors that go into "Spreading the music" chief among them, MONEY! Since there are so many factors that influence the ease at which a song spreads to the masses, you can not derive that since something spread it was "great", and if it didn't spread it was not "great". The variables keep this conclusion from being valid.
I don't agree with this guys take on "giving it all away for free". You have to make it accessible and to be able to be listened to for free, true. But you need to get paid for your art, and if your fans aren't willing to pay for your art, then they aren't really fans. At least that's how I see it.
I wonder how many of the musicians whining in the comments have actually read the book. I bought the audiobook and have been through it twice now.
Seriously, you can't criticize his point unless you understand the concept of the Linchpin.
Thanks for another great recommendation, Derek. That's two books now I've bought because of your site.
The last paragraph really hits home. I struggle to sell albums on CD Baby or in music shops. People might see my CDs, but they don't know who I am or what I have to offer. Virtually ALL of my sales come from playing live; at gigs or as a street performer. I was recently told that I have a "perfect business model" by someone from a record company. I must be doing something right, but the truth is that I'm just sharing a bit of myself through my music. Try to give people a unique experience; something they will treasure and want to take with them.
A ridiculous observation. Now we are led to believe music SHOULD be free and not to worry over it or how a professional artist will pay his bills. This is what downloading has done to this society. An abohration to art itself. This is exactly why Vincent Van Gogh killed himself.
Illegal downloading has DESTROYED independent music. If you do not believe this, you are deluding yourself, or you are twenty years old or both. Just as you, Seth have deluded yourself. Until musicians are allowed to distribute full fidelity wav files in this so called digital revolution WITH COPYRIGHT GUARANTEES AND FULL COPY PROTECTION, YES, COPY PROTECTION and GET PAID FOR OUR MUSIC IN FULL, iTunes, Apple, Microsoft and the rest of the fascist whore corporations who are making millions on hardware that distribute our music ILLEGALLY, will keep downloads as an abhorrent farce in my eyes!
I am not worthless. I am an artist.
Buy a record player, for goodness sakes and support artists investing in vinyl distribution and hear what you are missing.
CD Baby is a dinosaur.
What? Now we are expected to give away our music for free?..besides being expected to play for the cover and hustle our fans into some crappy dive that short pours or even pay to be put on a bill?
I'll just be in my studio if anybody wants me..
Thank you Derek for sharing and thank you for CD Baby.
The "radio" is supposed to be a sample of the music to get you to eventually buy the album/song. Seth's theories are totally backwards here and I am so sick of people with this mindset of music should be 100% free all the time. Streaming and hearing a song for free is one thing just like smelling bread is one thing. But you don't walk into your favorite bakery and say "Hey I like the smell of your bread so give it to me." That wouldn't help him develop his business would it? When will people stop with this hippy idea that music is and only "art." If that's your thing, great - good luck. But my dream is the maintain this artistic expression of mine as a way to live my life, you know kind of like a "job." But once you achieve that dream people MUST acknowledge it is a J-O-B like any other job they might have. Music is a product just like bread is a product. You are using the "smell" to entice somebody to come in and support what you do.
Looking at a painting - You can look all you want for free, but if you want to take the picture home and hang it on your wall are you allowed to just grab it off the museum wall and take it home? No, you either BUY the painting or you BUY a print of the picture.
I agree with "selling intimacy" - I have made that a main link between me and my fanbase. However, you can't really just sell intimacy. Part of being a musician and artist is to let people wonder who you are as a person. You can't make yourself so accessible to your fans to the point where the mystery is gone. If everyone of John Mayer's fans was his friend he wouldn't be special anymore, he'd be an average person who makes music "very good" music, wouldn't he? There's a reason he makes himself a little accessible to his fans, but he's using it to sell his album, not to sell himself.
I just wrote an entry to my fans titled "You are so damn important to me" at my own blog (read it at http://bradsayshello.tumblr.com). It's about how much I try to show my appreciation for them, and how much I appreciate their listening to my music. However, the more I give away to fans for free the more they come to expect it. Seth talks about being "great" - but when you are "great" you are idolized, and when you are idolized people want to take advantage of getting to know you. I can't tell you how many times someone writes me an e-mail saying "I can't believe you actually wrote me back, that's amazing!" - that part IS awesome - but then you open the door to them ALWAYS expecting you to write them back. You simply can't make room for everyone, especially if they think you are "great" because you'll have hundreds of fans writing you all the time. And where's the motivation to write someone back for the 10th time (or to write ten people back for the 10th time!) when you know they haven't even bought your album?
The main point of my entry was that fans HAVE to do more than just listen. Explain to me how a million people just knowing of your music benefits your career more than a million people actually buying it. The fan/artist relationship is dying because of this. The value of music is not in a listen because it's expendable. They didn't buy it, hence no investment into the fan/artist relationship, hence no financial loss if they stop listening, and no financial gain. In turn, most indie artists I know need that money just to make their next album, or to tour, to simply keep their career going. It's not about being a "sell out" artist who is in it for the money. The point is if the Beatles didn't sell millions of copies of their first two albums they would have never reached a point to make Revolver or Sgt. Peppers. Money helps artist's develop whether you want to call it "selling out" or not. It's a fact.
I'm sure many people have said this already in the comments, but I suggest Seth give away his book and rely on selling intimacy himself. I'd like to see how his career as a writer develops when a lot of people know about his book but never bought it and whoever published it says "Sorry Seth, you didn't sell enough copies of your last book, we're not going to be able to make another one with you."
About giving away your music free online:
The teenage band Acrtic Monkeys pioneered the idea of free music online. That resulted in an unsigned band out-selling by more than double the current top album of the time which was by Barry Manilow. The idea of free music online worked.
Consider also Derek Sivers idea to start up an online music store. It continues to be THE place to be for any musician to sell music.This idea also worked.
A great idea if original, exclusive and legal can result in explosive success. Bill Gates knows.
When others try out the exact same idea, it often fails. Originality (exclusive idea) plus risk (trail & error) equals success.
What I'm learning in working with inspiring musicians (Seth calls 'em "great" a lot!) is you get inspired, as well. And if you're addicted to growing because you're rising to new challenges, then it'll pay off.
"Great can also be commercial," as The Weavers' Lee Hays said. He co-wrote "If I Had a Hammer" with Pete Seeger. But nowadays, you really can define "commercial" as "accessible," as every kind of music has found its way to the hearts and minds of fans (thus making it profitable for the artist and his/her/its team).
Keep listening and learning to music. Appreciate what's out there. Music is listening.
Some people may not like it, but Seth and Trent Reznor are right on the money. Sell the intimate like limited edition albums, gigs at peoples houses, limited edition tracks, the chance to go in the studio with you, signed pictures, handwritten notes, higher quality tracks, videos, artwork, whatever. There has never been a more important time when connecting with people is what matters most.
Anything that becomes "free" is
devalued. 15 years ago - no musician gave anything away, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO! Unfortunately its precedent now and too late for those who give away free property.
Ponder if real estate was free - would it have any value? Lets say you wanted to sell your home for 10,000. but your insane neighbors
were willing to give their house away for free, you'd be out of luck.
Music is no different. Would Mr Godin be ok with me publishing this blog in a book of mine (for free) and then help me make a million dollars off my book?
This is what is happening in the marketplace. People obtaining free music doesn't devalue a property...
However allowing "the Marketplace" ie: TV/FIlm, iTunes, web etc to have "Free" content ABSOLUTELY devalues the property
Nobody appreciates good... scratch that GREAT music more than myself. That music should
be exhorted with big sales, concert attendance and praise... because its great, and allows that artist to have tools to continue advancing their art. But the minute its given away for free I can promise it won't be viewed as great. Just another free download that people don't actually listen to - rather its played in the background as they text or email.
Very helpful article. I definitely took notes while reading this one. Thanks for all you do Derek!
interesting discussion keep your posts coming!