The power of no reward
2009-07-10
Are you paying an affiliate fee to your customers to recommend their friends?
Think again. It may backfire.
Compare these two scenarios:
- “Hey you should check out this website. They're cool. You'll like it.”
- “Hey you should check out this website. They're cool. You'll like it. If you sign up, make sure to mention my affiliate code 43625.”
The first one sounds sincere. I'll check it out.
But the second one sounds suspicious. Does my friend really think I'll like it, or is he only telling me to profit? Now I don't trust the recommendation anymore.
Compare these two scenarios:
- “Excuse me, neighbor. Can you please help me lift this desk through that door? It's stuck.”
- “Excuse me, neighbor. Can you please help me lift this desk through that door? I'll pay you a dollar.”
The first one is fine. We all like to think of ourselves as helpful. And we enjoy a challenge.
But the second one is insulting. A dollar? I'm your neighbor! You don't need to pay me. But the amount you offered is even more insulting than nothing. I'm going to say no. If my neighbor is looking to hire someone for a dollar, he can hire someone else.
The great book “Predictably Irrational” says social psychology tests have shown we have two different sets of rules: social mindset and market mindset.
Social mindset is warm and fuzzy social human nature: helping friends, being a good generous person, doing what's right.
Market mindset is strictly business: being paid for time and effort, competition, you get what you pay for, and cost/benefit analysis.
Introducing money into a social relationship switches it to market mindset, changing the entire relationship, making all the warm-and-fuzzy go away.
Here's an example of what not to do:
A day care center had a problem with parents picking up the kids late. The teachers were often waiting an extra hour with the kids for tardy parents to show up.
So they added a fine. $3 each time you are late to pick up your kids.
So now that parents were paying for their tardiness, they used market mindset to decide whether $3 was worth it to be late, and tardiness actually increased!
Social mindset had been replaced with market mindset. What was a decision of social guilt (“I feel bad. I'm late.”) was now a cost/benefit analysis (“It's fine. It's worth $3.”)
Realizing their mistake, the day care removed the fine a few weeks later, tardiness increased again, now that social mindset and market mindset had both been removed.
Poor day care center. Don't be like them.
This great article by Alfie Kohn shows that in over 20 published studies, people who expect to receive a reward do not perform as well as those who expect nothing.
Don't underestimate the power of no reward. Don't introduce market mindset for social things.
Next time you're thinking of rewarding your friends or customers with cash, think how offensive it would be to offer to pay for sex.
So true. I teach music at my house and I'm always walking the line between social mindset and market mindset. I wonder though, what would have been a good solution for the daycare in the above example?
-Doug
This is so true, I would be insulted if a friend asked me for help and offered money.
As a musician, I've noticed word of mouth seems to help the most with new listeners vs. anything paid...
Thanks for the posts and articles, I have been checking them since I joined CDbaby in 2004.
Thanks for the insight Derek, great post.
How does this philosophy reflect on having a "Donate" or "Buy Me A Beer" button on a web page? Do the same principles apply?
Brian
This is so perfect for me today. What a serious blessing you are to this planet.
Great post .. totally agree! I was considering doing an affiliate thing at first with my band website, and then had the same feelings about people recommending music to friends for profit .. definitely not the same.
Derek, you're a true inspiration .. I look forward to your future posts!
@Brian, my initial guess was just that donating (at least if there's a good cause involved) might fall into the social mindset category--you're not asking to be paid for something, you're just saying "if you're feeling generous and want to help me out, here's a way to do so."
But then on the other hand, maybe even if having a donate button is really intended to be no pressure, if you're giving them something on the same page maybe they'll subconsciously link the two together and think you're subtly asking for payment?
So what's the answer to the day care scenario? What should they have done?
Totally true. Very interesting...
Yeah..its all true,put a dollar amount on it,and its no fun.Its the love that makes it all worth it..
So true,
The Market mindset is useful, but only in the right places. Great article, thank you Derek.
I dig it. It makes me think of "pay it forward"
A lot of guitarists want to learn my music and they e-mail a lot asking for tabs of the songs. I don't have a published book of my songs, so I just tab out the songs, scan them into pdf's and send them out for free to fans. It's consequently increased my fan base and my sales quite a bit. The more I give to my fans, the more financial success I ultimately seem to receive from it. Seems similar to this concept, maybe.
Again, information that is profoundly advantageous!
Very nice, and a refreshing point of view.
The day care center should have continued raising the penalty until it worked.
Certainly food for thought. Not sure how to fix our current affiliate incentive for leads without a reward however.
How can this be related to building a following in music?
Great post! Interesting that the day-care center example is in Predictably Irrational. It's also in Freakonomics: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/books/chapters/0515-1st-levitt.html
I always benefit from your messages. Thanks much.
This is a great insight, and explains why some well-meant efforts have gone horribly wrong! Thanks Derek!
How can this be used in promoting my music?
and how does this play out in situations -- I have several -- where there's both a business relationship and a personal relationship with the same person?
we all try to keep things straight, but there have been misunderstandings, too.
This helps understand the difficulty with 'Facebook marketing', a sort of contradiction in terms. I think it's a measure of Facebook's success that it's a social network that still feels personal. Marketing mindset seems obvious, phony and unwelcome there as opposed to MySpace which has been sunk with marketers and no longer much of a social network.
It's so obvious - if you're late picking up your kid from daycare, offer to pay with sex.
Win and win.
I can see clearly now, the cobwebs are gone...it all makes perfect sense because, as usual, you have found the perfect way to explain it. Helpful, practical and immediately appliable - that's what I like.
Derek - you are the great filter king. I know I can rely on you for your insight, your information and your opinion. And that is worth a lot in this internet world of massive information overload.
Free Music...No strings attached!
nice article derek. corey i think the daycare centre owners should have just refused to pay the staff after hometime - the staff would have whinged to the parents that they are not being paid and evoked a social mindset response from the majority, of course there is nothing that would remove the tardiness completly. im not saying its socially correct ~ but i reckon it would work
a while back, Native instruments gave away a version of "core player". It's an excellent software instrument. As a result, I'm much more into anything Native Instruments.
Yea, it's like I feel bad when I do a show and can't pay the band, but they love to do it anyhow! I still would like to be able to pay the band though.
like the post... a "no reward" can be very rewarding... liking "paying it forward"
we need more of this instead of the "tit for tat" mentality.. the always looking for a pay off...
time to give or just do just for the sake of it..the fun of it.. just to help... just to share
namaste
Thanks Derek. Life is not always about making money off of others. With a down economy all we need to do is give. Take time to donate your talent at a local hospital as a volunteer musician and reap the best rewards. Making a buck is not alays what life is about. Helping others is.
It's a long time ago now, but 15 years ago, the threat of being late more than twice picking up my daughter from after-school care was a call to the Child Welfare Department. It worked.
Thanks for the insight!Im gonna use this with my students.Its amazing how they all want something for a task and if you give them a reward, it starts the never ending addictive cycle to the point where the initial task is forgotten!Keep em coming!
most day cares can easily fill empty spots so how about this:
Day Care X: Parents, please be advised that picking up your children on time is an important matter. Due to a few, we are forced to enact the following. If you are late picking up your children 3 times in a six month period, we will have to remove your child/children from enrollment
If you are going to be late, please call so we know what's going on and that you are alright... Thank you, Management
Working parents need a place they can trust and a place that is not lax in their administration. I think I would pay attention to this posting...
It's been easier to motivate DJ's by appealing to their "rock aficionado" knowledge, or their pride, or work ethic than with rewards... give them $15 or restaurant trade and the production pile still sits unfinished, or like you say they'd be insulted... "my work is worth way more than that"...
My wife has the exact same problem in the kindergarten where she is working. She has noticed that it's the same parents that show up late, and they have no natural reason to do so, which makes her think that it's their personalities (or bad behavior they can't or won't get rid of). My wife has no solution to the problem, and neither has the rest of the staff...
About the power of no reward, that gave me something to think about. I guess we all know it deep inside: it's more important to be human and honest than to try to be "smart". One of the biggest challenges as an unknown, independent artist is to keep my head cool and my heart warm, and to be honest all the way. If my music is honest, and the way I promote my music is honest (the power of no reward) - I believe (at least hope...) that the listeners and fans i will get, are real fans. However, the temptations to use methods, tricks and those glorious, promising "get rich on the web in 100 days" are sometimes so tempting. But my heart (and brain) reminds me that it's better to be a small but honest artist than a well known and greedy or dishonest artist.
Derek,
That's good solid food you're
givig out.
Thanks my friend,
Jesse
this is super interesting and right on for timing, thanks derek!
next week i'm launching a fund-raising effort to help finance the final touches and production of my new album "good mystery."
there are plenty of artists now who've done a similar thing with "donate this and we'll reward you with this" - do you think there is a better way of applying the "power of no reward" idea with a fundraising effort like this?
i do want to give something to each contributor as an appreciation for helping make this album a reality, but maybe it can be after the fact..... like a surprise gift they receive?
like a surprise batch of cookies to your neighbor who helped you bring the desk in. what are your thoughts on that?
Derek,
Fantastic post as always. The answer to the daycare scenario is to either increase the market cost or social cost sufficiently to stop parents from being tardy.
Increasing the social cost is more difficult and impractical, as a sign reading "Kid's not picked up by 4PM will be placed outside on the street" would not go over very well.
That being said, gradually increasing the surcharge (and calling it such) for tardiness would allow the daycare to find at what price people decide it's not worth being late.
Once again, thanks for the insight!
so how does this apply to giving away a free download? or giving away a coupon code for a discount on an album?
i would definitely consider paying for sex with my friends no reward.
maybe with their girlfriends, but i would want to see a picture first.
When I went to record my first cd the engineer said "careful for friends",,,,so I kept it business like and hired professional musicians which have since played at gigs with me, and I haven't had any problems.
Hey Derek,
I liked the article. Interesting timing... I lost my wallet this morning and low and behold some lady found in (on Las Vegas Blvd!) and called me. Luckily, some girl found it and called me. I think 99% are genuinely good-hearted.
Anyhow, regarding music and life, yeah, I think there is a fine line between social and marketing.
Thanks for passing this along.
Humour, transcends ALL. It disarms, it seduces and if you can make people--LAUGH, THEY'LL buy the Beer! It is why I write so many silly songs.
I'd like to contribute (socially) with another variation:
1. A new musician comes to town. A teacher-bandleader has many connections. "Hey, come here, I'll introduce some people to you." The new musician connects with other musicians in town, and the other musicians start calling him because the new musician does gigs for less money (or just because he's the news in town). Nobody gives appropriate credit to the more experienced teacher-bandleader for even being the crucial link between, and soon the teacher-bandleader has fewer gigs even with his own band.
A. Should the teacher-bandleader feel good for connecting people in the scene while losing gigs, or...
B. Shut the doors and introduce only himself and ignore everyone new in the scene?
Is the social aspect valuable in this case if the scene only recognizes the market aspect?
Amber... How about including their names in the liner notes as friends or "special thanks to.." I think most folks would love to be on an album and to let their friends know that they helped in some way..
What you give to another you give to yourself. We're all connected.
$3 an hour is a great deal! I'll bet tardiness would have stopped altogether if the penalty was $20.00.
I just picked up my niece at a daycare every day this week & a very simple thing happens there: Each kid comes from around a corner and walks down a little aisle to greet the parents through a little indoor gate at the entrance. The kid is smiling ear to ear, with their little back-pack strung up over their shoulder (the kids are like, only just able to walk!) and the parents are all puffed up full of pride to watch their kid so independently maneuver this little 7-foot stretch of hallway... It was like a slow-motion,Hollywood style 'run into each others arms' kind of moment every afternoon.
The best rewards, as Derek says, are warm and fuzzy and without strings attached. Those rewards are absolutely INCREDIBLE.
Love ya Derek. Thanks for keeping in touch! xx
I Spoke to the Student Council during a summer tri-mester at the college I was attending. Summer tri-mester has less students and nothing to si socially., maybe a dance. Just arriving at college from NYC's Greenwich Village I offered to do a free concert. They accepted. The day after the concert The Council Rep told me they were going to pay me $25.00 for such a good show. Unexpected and needed I was very pleased to accept.
Derek,
You're timing couldn't be more perfect. I was just thinking of adding affiliation to my site - thinking it may help with list building and/or conversion. After reading this, I think I'll stick to my social mindset marketing plan and continue to offer value without strings. There has to be a better way to monetize affiliation so that the marketing mindset doesn't get in the way. iContact has great user stats tracking and you can see who's forwarded an email. Maybe it's as simple as that.
I forward restaurant coupons to my friends all the time. I get nothing from it, I just know where they like to eat.
I'll be thinking of a forwarding reward system that doesn't smell like an MLM (hate those). I wouldn't even announce the potential for the reward from forwarding - it would just be a surprise... "Hey, I saw you forwarded my email to 10 people. Thanks! I just entered you into a raffle for a free Flip Camera. Hope you win. The raffle is on mmddyy". Or even something like, I noticed you forwarded my email to 25 of your friends and family. Thank you. You qualify for xxx as a token of my appreciation".
Glad you shared your thoughts. You manage to make me think, re-think and re-do my marketing plan every few days...thanks?
Deborah
I think the daycare should have had a clear policy. As for Paid recomendations isn't that what agents/booking managers ect are? They make a percentage to get the artist jobs right? So I guess thats the business mind, and fans are the friend mind. It gets sticky though, I agree. I would not take a recomendation that I was going to "put a code" in for.
Okay, the dilemma is the music business is mostly made up of networks of friends. But there is a reasonable expectation that people will get paid for professional quality work if there is a budget. There is so much "free" stuff going on, that the expectation among many has become that you can, and should, get everything for free. Venues assume that, customers assume that, musicians assume that. I've never found anyone I work with who does a lesser job when they are paid. They still do it for love, and the money is gravy. If I don't have a budget on a particular project, or they don't, then favors will gladly be granted. But favors should be repaid too. I will continue to pay people whenever I can, and expect them to do the same. Because otherwise, we're really just a bunch of warm and fuzzy hobbyists. I do agree, it's better to offer somebody nothing instead of an insulting amount. But it's better still to pay them what they are worth. And if they're worth nothing, you might want to consider finding some better people to work with...
social versus market mindset is a breakthrough in awareness. thank you... maybe the school could acknowledge the support of the parents who are on time.
True. That's how I've always done things. If I like it, enjoy it and/or want to do it. Its done. No questions. No gimmicks. No pay can replace the joy I receive from doing something out of the kindness of my heart.
Nor, the fact that this is what I choose to do. I never expect anything and receive so much!
Conversely, things do change once a monetary fee comes into play. It's a thin line. That's where one's creativity comes into play. There are differences: "what type" of friend, "what degree" of a friend, "what level" of friendship are they in your life. That makes a huge difference in my opinion.
One pet peeve is when I get messages saying, "I think you might like this". i.e. myspace friends do it all the time. They don't even know what their sending and often its a virus or trojan infecting computers. I would rather them be straight out at whats being sent the illusion they try and portray is transparent.
I feel people forget we are in an "information" age where one can research, gather and come to a decision on there own. It's like people still think that people don't have the ability to make informal decsions.
O.k. let me stop my rant. Lol. Social mindset and Market midsets both offer rewarding scenerios. You just have know the other side of it and that called...RESPECT.
As always, Thank you Derek!
Before homeschooling my two kids for 9 years, our daycare started charging $5 per minute for late pick-ups. Homeschooling is so much more rewarding for the kids. 12 working parents could not pay the fee and the daycare closed down after 5 weeks.
Sivers Coach in Waiting - Devin Theme
In this day and age we are constantly bombarded with mixed messages, and rather than blur the line it makes people suspicious. If we as artists try NOT to send such mixed messages perhaps our fans, and perhaps more importantly our POTENTIAL fans, will learn to trust again. Word of mouth is built on trust, and fans need to be able to trust.
Thank you, Derek.
I don't always comment, but I do pay attention to your excellent advice
I run into this all the time doing online promotions. The fans want all kinds of things from FREE songs to signed pictures. I have to remind myself that the fan is also a friend on a social networking site. I have to make sure to accommodate the needs of the friendship without stepping on the toes of the marketing. It's an interesting balance. There is no rule of thumb to my knowledge.
I think the Day Care Center should have talked to the parents about how it makes their kid feel to be the last one picked up, the sense of being forgotten, perhaps abandoned, the embarrassment of having the teachers think their parents don't care enough to pick them up when they should.
As for paying for referrals, it's different with original music but when someone refers me to a paying gig of any kind I usually give them cash or a gift amounting to about 10% of the first gig. People refer me to their friends and associates anyway but I figure if they've helped to enrich me by entrusting their friend's project to me I might as well send a little something their way too.
Yep, you are so correct. I have a friend who does freelancing around music and he expects to get accolades for doing not a whole lot of work, plus getting paid for it. Volunteers work much harder.
Though I understand the warm fuzzy social mindset when it comes to promoting myself, this article makes me wonder when is it an ok thing to flip the switch to business and requesting support from my fans?
I don't agree with you period. The internet is NOT a Christian neighborhood and to point that out there are fewer and fewer "Free" website services anymore (that don't bombard you with ads of course.) I don't use the affiliate system myself but on the web everybody wants everything for FREE and one gets little benefit from it if there is no media backing.
If my neighbor asks me for a simple favor fine, but if he asks me to do serious work or lift something where I could be injured I'd like the option to decline without feeling bad. His offer gives me that option and makes any work worth it.
I have offered many FREE downloads of my music on the web and so far they have only lead to increased paranoia. amazingly it has not lead to more sales or lifting up my career, as I cannot tour right now. So previews are the best. But for something as simple as a referral I agree with you.
Look at your example: You sold CDbaby for a lot of $ and now the new parent company (DiscMakers?) is as I suspected, changing the rules and fees to make it much more a profitable corporate model and imperiling the very small musician who has little media backing. Most insulting is that they no longer wish to stock our CDs if they don't sell without imposing a storage fee. If you don't sell 1 after 12 months they can send your product back! Effectively knocking you off. To all the independent rock bands that sounds like no big deal. But to unknown solo musicians that are older just try selling physical CDs in the world of the internet when you are NOT touring...
Everything is a business on the net for the companies; nobody is out to help anybody else without profit!
Hi Derek,
Thanks again for existing...
As musicians, we have the oppotunity of self-orgasm on our instruments, or composing, or improvising, so we don't really understand greed and craving that subdue normal people out there.
I don't think it's a moral issue, rather a on/off behaviour. Kama (desire) makes this world go round (square?). If I don't expect anything in return of whatever, I'm in my creative right brain hemisphere: alive, peaceful, and conscious than I'm closer to the incenarator than the kindergarden.
On the contrary, expectations usually come with a ''voice'' saying: I will get this and that if I do this and that, usually accompanied by a finale which sounds like: ''I'm so intelligent'' this is the left hemisphere, porous to any astral or cosmic entity that gives us the illusion that we are so wonderful and intelligent ( yet bio-degradable).
My experience, in regard to that crazy Karma of mine ( I should have been a Bullshitologist i.e. lawyer), is that a complete absence of after-thought trancends a predictable machine into a beyond-science-fiction human being, which is probably what we all aim to be (not so obvious, though,because that inner voice always yak-yaks)
Bye for now
New times, new rules ! Great article and very true !
So much depends on the individual and what is going on in their own life at the time. And a lot of times that is a hard thing to detect. The balance of marketing and personal relations obviously requires very good social skills.
I have seen in recent times it has become even harder. Seems a lot of people are "on edge".
Money is a tool we once created that we've since turned into a torture device. I'm interested in interactions, personally and professionally, that are more about art, love, community and creativity, and less about money. There are cleaner, more vibrant ways to create incentive, value, and reward.
"It’s a long time ago now, but 15 years ago, the threat of being late more than twice picking up my daughter from after-school care was a call to the Child Welfare Department. It worked."
Just beautiful. When someone takes advantage of you you have to whack him and you have to whack him fast. ALWAYS REMEMBER that bad people are aggressively bad, and being passively good means that the bad people will always win.
Maybe the daycare center should just pay the caretakers for the extra hours and adjust the daycare fee appropriately. Anyway, my friend and great harp player Jimi Lee told me that "you have to give away what you want". All I could say was "how do you know what you want?" dale
Great message. Wish I'd seen it 10 years ago, I'd have saved myself a lot of grief, and money.
Daycare solution: Each time a child is picked-up late, the time is recorded. At the end of each month, each minute over 5 min late counts for an additional dollar on the monthly charge for day care. The rate never goes down, unless you want to add-in a "6 mos. with no lateness" clause which erases the increase. The parents may start with an attitude that they can pay for convenience, but it will quickly become clear that they cannot sustain the constant increase.
Interesting article Derek ...
I think the last few posts pose the real question for musicians (& other marketers) and perhaps a subject we'd all LOVE to hear from you on ... when & how do you successfully flip the switch from friendship & free give-aways to selling your product - how does one cross that bridge so that your friends & fans think it's ok and acceptable to do so AND actually are willing to spend the $ to buy your product & support your career?
I love this post, Derek.
It brings to mind a few other associations:
1. Having compassion for others is one of the main drivers of true happiness.
2. Many people reach the high point of their life (more commonly later in life) being of 'service' to others.
3. In the world of Social Media, being a musician profile on myspace, I noticed when I add request friends who I don't know yet, on myspace I very rarely get questioned 'Why are you adding me?' but on other types of Social media sites, for example Youtube, if I add request someone I don't know, I'd get an abundance of 'Why are you adding me? Who are you???' which, my only point here is, it's interesting to me that MySpace hit a certain balancing point (between the market mindset vs. social mindset) where the community as a whole for the most part has continued to accept and support the idea of being marketed to by others (bands,comedians, etc..) as an integrated part of the 'friend/network building' experience.
http://www.myspace.com/officialstevencravis
The daycare analogy is great. Set up a daycare centre, charge $3 more than your real fee, then offer a $3 reward to parents who care enough to be on time. Same as the fine, basically, but presented in a positive way. In the music business, increase your fees so you can afford to give gifts of appreciation.
OK, I can see where you're coming from...so then you're generally against affiliate marketing for "normal people" in music sales?
Thank you for being the Teacher and giver that you are.
cool post Derek,
I may make a habit of reading
your blog and commenting.
I've been really impressed by your philosophy and ethic toward music and the internet.
you're one smart dude, and I like you.
happy day.
Mono
Beautiful Derek - as you know I grew up in Asia and my "blink" thought was the thai women, "no money, no honey!" the mindset of love 'n money are similar "energies" and a valued "exchange". "I use you, you use me, and we feel good about it". Manipulating with the "guilt" of favors gets off balance (give ya a buck if ya help)... money talks when controlling society's mindset(Singapore fines are a great example of how society is controlled to keep clean) and $3 for tardiness is definitely not a balanced "value" for the teacher's valued time in waiting. If I sell a service, it's adapting to the "value" of what that service means to both parties. In every country and every person's situation, "value" is adaptable. When I give from what feels good, in my power, in that moment, without guilt, or fear of rejection then "using me 'n using you" feels amazing. I believe personal and business in how we "use eachother" is "same-same but different" (another Thai motto). . . if you manipulate on the web to sell your cds with an "incentive", does it feel good or not deep within? That's the key, reach in, to reach out from the inside out.
If I had even nickel for all the free songs, I have given away and all the time I have spent playing for free; I would be rich Man!
I just love to play Blues music for folks.
With that being said that don't pay the rent or put food on table!
If I want make little bit money then you got ask folks to put money in the hat or tip jar when your playing!
its honest dollar for well played tune is not to much to ask,that way you do not need to trick them with hip slick and cool programs! to get them to step up to the plate.
I agree, and also think it works a different way too. For example I am charging $4 for a mixtape I did and got more interest then when I was giving it away. I believe the $4 conveyed that I felt my work was good enough to pay for, but was cheap enough for people to buy in this economy. I think when I was giving it away people said to themselves, this must not be too good, and didn't take interest. Love the article.
This is why Amway/pyramid marketing schemes always fail. In order to do them, you have to turn all your FRIENDS into potential CUSTOMERS/SALES STAFF. I have a couple musicians in my life who inevitably turn the conversation to "Hey, I just got into a new moneymaking opportunity I want to share with you," and it's a complete turn-off...
Don’t introduce market mindset for social things.
On the flip side, don't introduce market mindset without social things.
Commercials that talk about products in a cold, matter a fact are rare because they usually won't work.
Typically people conduct business partnerships with their friends. People tend to hire friends or friends' of friends..
You have to use a social mindset to introduce an effective market mindset.
Tom Williams mentioned he had to befriend a guy at apple to get a listen then a job. He couldn't just hand him a resume be done with it.
Time after time I read about people making business decisions because of some social reasons first.
Typically it's easier to get an investment of $25,000 grand from your parents with money then from a bank.
Rarely do I find people conducting business without some social context, even if it's insincere. Yes there is a lot of insincerity in the world.
People are always nice and social when they want to sell something or get something. The social mindset has it's own type of reward system.
But on the other hand, there's a parable that fits - "Put your money where your mouth is."
Centuries ago, the common law ptohibited secret commissions for the obvious reason that it blurred real, well-meant recommendations and commercially driven secret sales pitches. Secret commissions undermine relationships: that is as true between fans as between commercial entities.
As for the "free" - the motivation is not always about currency/money. For most people, they have "enough" money (they'd like more but that's another issue). What they really want is what money cannot buy. When looking at potential investors in innovative products or events, I look for funders who want that "money can't buy" R.O.I - they are what I call Adventure Capitalists. They are great benefactors of the arts and real innovation as they use abductive thinking to evaluate a project.
I always pay for services rendered. I expect to pay and am often rewarded by not having to pay. I always enjoy your moral questions.
Giving without expecting a return is the design of life.
For those who believe in God, we know there is really only one reason we exist.
I also went to the link. Convenience is a HUGE part of the equation that is not addressed.
For example, if you post:
“Hey you should check out this website. They’re cool. You’ll like it.” and add the url, few will bother
But if you post a BUTTON (which includes your affiliate linkage)
with one word: "HERE" odds are it will get more action.
Granted, the ulterior motive is hidden. But simple is as simple does.
In the case of the neighbor, a third choice (if the neighbor was affluent) would be adding: "...because I cannot afford a new one".
The affluent neighbor would then give YOU money to buy one, have it delivered & be done with it.
There is more power in simplicity. There are many relatively wealthy panhandlers in the world because it's easier to toss money in a bucket than help them find a job/support/whatever.
Your reward for tossing in your pocket change is instantaneous. It rids you of heavy (worthless) coins and gives you some social satisfaction.
There is in fact always a reward for giving. Even if you don't expect or percieve it.
Great post! I was just thinking about putting a "donate" button on my blog linked to PayPal, then I thought that maybe TipJoy would be hipper, less intrusive, and feel more like a favor...but then that insult factor flared up for me(TipJoy is incremental amounts, $1, $2, $5). Still no button on the website. No counter either. No Google Analytics. I just love to do it! Lately, I have not been so gungho and timely, mostly because of the social aspect of the newslettter: I've gone out and met people, seen folks' shows, and made new connections that want to do business. It seems that your logic holds true. I am now able to monetize what I am giving away, by accepting offers to participate, live, in real time and in person! The newsletter is "gifting" me back in an unexpected way.
As for the childcare center, as a single mom who would struggle to get away from her colleagues in order to "make it in time" to pick up my kid, I can tell you that if it is not in the contract and clearly written on the wall that you must arrive on time to get your kid or face expulsion from the program, the $=time thing won't work. For my older child, The Boys & Girls Club at their on-site centers will call the POLICE if you do not call in explaining where you are and your ETA. Parents who have no control over arriving late (I had a 70 mile commute, 30 of which was across LA)had to make arrangements directly with the care providers. Gifts were greatly appreciated...
Derek,
Interesting food for thought. Thanks to Michael Guy for pointing out that Disc Makers is now going to charge a stocking fee for unsold CD,s. Derek, how come you never mentioned that? Anyhow, please keep the posts coming!
I agree ... one reason why I would not impose on a neighbor for the $100 Directv cash. Nice idea but hey ... I don't work for Directv ... and is my time and the fact that they now hooked another sould for at least a two year contract worth $100 .... nooooooo!
Many here asked - "so what should/would/could the daycare have done"? I didn't see/hear any answers - here's one.
Letter to all(including tardy) parents. "Dear..., From Tuesday, any children NOT picked up by xx p.m. will be locked in the gymnasium overnight without food, water bedding, heat/cool etc., until the opening of next day's school, and you will be reported to child services for abandonment. Any child left on Fridays will immediately be given to Japanese whale fishermen as bait."
Draconian ?... sure. Let us know how it works out for y'all.
I think you are right in that the Market Mindset needs to be used in the appropriate context and Social context isn't always the right one. Take Multi Level Marketing companies for example - my family and I were recently talking about how we've all had experiences with those and they tend to backfire when friends take it to friends for this very reason.
The use of incentives CAN work in certain context; however, just as NO REWARD can be effective in others.
Since you gave great examples of where it doesn't work, I'd like to share two where it has worked. I'll add that the reasons rewards worked in my examples are partly due to the value of the incentive, the way the "sales message" or recommendation is delivered (e.g. "Sign up on my affiliate link" vs "click here to check it out") and the overall context.
First Example (music related reward): We (State of Man) had an very successful "Fan building" online street team mission where we rewarded Street Team members to promote our music and newsletter sign up at http://www.reverbnation.com/stateofman. Street team members sent emails with a link to our newsletter and posted music widget players, mssgs, etc. along with our "Join our Newsletter" widget encouraging others to sign up. Since all the tracking/metrics were done online, participants didn't have to reference their incentive and they could promote without sincerity being questioned. Some may have even asked friends to sign up to help them win. The winner had over 200+ new fans join alone and to this day, it was the most successful online newsletter mission we've had, resulting in hundreds of new fans in only two weeks. The main reason it worked so well is the value of the reward/incentive : an all expense paid 5 day trip to Cuba to hang with us while we performed for the troops at GTMO on Independence Day, 2008. We got tons of new fans and the winning Street Team member has been a close friend and huge supporter (before and) ever since.
Second Example: I'm an affiliate for an amazing vocal coaching program, which is in my opinion, one of the best available. Prior to becoming an affiliate, my vocal coach, who is just as good, is the coach for Usher, India I., Rob Thomas and other big names, but once I found the digital vocal lessons, I purchased them and increased my range, tone and vibrato considerably - for the cost of about an hour lesson with my original vocal coach. Granted,market mindset helped me make my purchase, but my point is more so about the affiliate program. I enrolled in it b/c I was amazed at the product and I wanted to build a business recommending it. I would have recommended it anyway, but not nearly as much as I do now given the incentive. I've made good money from doing so and feel great about it because it actually improves peoples voices in a fast amount of time. I'm helping others AND getting rewarded in all sorts of ways, INCLUDING financially. (PLUG: If by chance you are curious as to the vocal coaching product, click on my hyperlinked name)!
That said, I think your examples are good ones where the incentive, the context and/or the messaging don't work. However, there are plenty of scenarios that can work. Try getting feedback from fans (or your customers) and use your best judgment/ go with your heart!
Who said "Cast your bread upon the waters, and it will return after many days?"
Great reading - thank you. I try do as I wish to have done for me thus teaching people how I wish to be treated. I certainly try to do for others as I wish to be done for me. Ending in, what I believe is a deposit into my 'personal bank account' within the universe. Leaves me 'feeling richer' than any amount of money anyone could ever offer me for a deed done.
Derek, How are you my friend! I agree with your article whole heartedly! I hate to feel pressured with buttons, and I will go to the ends of the earth to help you, but mention paying me and I want to run the other way!
As for the day care, I had a friend in that situation, and she slapped on a $15.00 late fee, and the parents were almost always on time after that. You have to make the penalty painful enough to get their attention in that situation, especially since many parents drop their children at 6:00 AM. That said, if there was an emergency that caused the lateness, she didn't charge a dime.
I hope all is well with you and your new endeavours. Thanks for keeping in touch and keeping the articles of interest coming!
Love,
Carole
excellent article! facebook is social and it's free (so far) but what happens next? btw - i'm having an issue where people (total strangers) write and ask me how to do things or how i did this thing or that thing. questions on interior design, music, real estate, marketing, finance, etc. so how does one turn this into a profit? take it from being social to market? and i always wonder if i try to charge will these people be upset if i ask for payment?
Love the "Best Things in Life Aren't Things"
that's why we are musicians and try to help listeners transcend their dependency on identifying with their things--eh?
Love ya Derek!
ps the Day Care should just establish an "after
care" program and charge the going rate the same way many other elementary and pre-k institutions do: win/win
I guess I have been using my site at www.myspace.com/bigranfeuers and facebook both to promote my attemped come back of my old band!
I have been posting letters to my all my old high school friends etc on facebook by writting on their walls as to what my future plans are with my band so the word will get out when it happens!
I have not been asking anything from my friends as far a any money or anything! I just want them to be aware of what I am planing on doing musically, and all I hope is that some of my old friends still think enought of me that they come show up to some of my shows when I get back in to the band business!
I really do what to see a lot of these old friends I went to highschool with and what better way than to have them show up for one of my shows at like say a big class reunion!
This to me would be what its all about! If they want to help me out in promoting my new band thats great but the real joy I would recieve is performing for them, and knowing that they are enjoying the show and wanting to help spread the word about my show and my new band!
You're right. Except that I'm so sick of "check it out." Can't anyone thing of something else to say? What is this, a friggin' library?
On the other hand, my neighbor gave me $100 when I hooked up and programmed her new TV. I tried to refuse, but she insisted. Sweet old Hungarian lady. She was just trying to say she loved me.
Hello Derek,
It's always great to read your articles and I agree with you that we should all make the time to help and support others. Don't ever be afraid to write something positive about another artists music, especially if it's good, as it helps to build a strong network of similar minded people.
I often say to people that by supporting each other, especially in the forums that count, it will always be beneficial to all concerned. People like to hear a huge variety of music and by being supportive you will find that more people will take interest in what you are doing.
Keep up the great work!
Peter/Tol-Puddle Martyrs/The Secrets.
big deal..just pass the coupon that gives recipient also a discount (along with commission to referrer).. this just considers conversion aspect and does not consider without incentive the referral count goes down dramatically..and once there is referral people checkout forwarded items and go for the purchase/sign up if they find it interesting
Music is a big competative world ... some days you feel like your on a mountian-top; others in the valley ... I can never stop this is what I do ... your article or I should say articles ... empower Me ... not everyone understands musicians ... they like to come to watch them at the circus ... and that's great ... but it's alot of hard knocks attempting to truely get there ...
your artcle has come at a perfect time ... and it has given me hope !
Thank You
Excellent article!
The day care center should have assessed the real cost of having staff stay late: utilities, payroll, taxes etc. If the charge for late pickup had been $30 instead of $3, parents would think twice about being late. If an emergency came up, a tardy parent should be happy to know that they were covering the costs involved.
My reaction to this is "it depends." In my case my fan base is mostly friends. So it makes sense to be social. If you're passing links to strangers then it makes sense to use an affiliate scheme.
Offensive? Let's not be hasty! I mean, exactly how much are we talking here?
this is a great reminder to remain genuine in sharing your art with people.
i've realized for myself that the market mentality can be fear-based. fear that my art won't sustain me. but if my heart is in it, that's what resonates with other people most, and that's worth paying for.
thanks for sharing derek
So the real lesson here to use redirects for your affiliate links!? Lol, seriously, even Google did not become the monster that it is through recommendation alone - the referral fees for getting AdWords sign ups from other Webmasters is what really propelled their business.
Couldn't agree more. Late for anything without a good excuse is "bad" for people left wondering.
I had two great daycare alternatives and I wouldn't have risked losing them. If I could get overtime I called to ask if it was okay or arranged for someone else to pick them up. Good daycare is hard to find, and if I were a provider I would replace annoying clients with more serious ones.
I genuinely liked them so I wouldn't have wanted to incovenience them, but they liked their private lives and had a right to plan it.
Scary study though, that once both mindsets were removed, tardiness got worse....So if we do mess up we're really $#^%ed. Very interesting.
Hey Derek, I like this new interface... auto everything...
yes, the flip the 'switch' question comes to mind. I'm curious about your answer.
At my studio, OTR, we run an intern program. It has always been a problem as a business owner to switch from the non paying model to the pay per hour model. Quality of work always seemed to go down once we started paying the interns. While some people think it's nearly criminal that we don't pay interns, I remind them that many have often paid $80,000 to an audio school with no idea of how to get real life experience or a job. INTERNS ARE ALOT OF WORK! and cost us time/money, but, fortunately, I like to teach, they like to learn, we all like to promote. Essentially, if they are well trained, you are training your competition in future years.
We now charge a registration fee for the first meeting with the interns because too many are flakes and never show up. The result is that we are getting more interns than ever that are more highly motivated. They come from around the country for a summer or take BART for 90 minutes to get here. The interns design their own program and we teach them entrepreneurship (and audio recording through osmosis). They can come to recording sessions to watch. Many have gone on to great gigs. We are considering charging MORE money to see how high these interns can fly to success... :D
On another backwards approach, we started selling Blue Coast Records SACDs at $40 per unit and are now selling single downloads of 96K at $3-4 per single. All the while, the music industry is crumbling, we're selling thousands of discs. We don't sell on iTunes and we give away the mp3s for streaming at 192kbps... the whole song. Last month, we increased traffic to the site by 600% and sold more music than studio time.
I don't believe anything is 'free'. I do believe you get what you pay for and that sometimes free is great... and there's an associated price to pay for it.
By the way, I for one, am not opposed to your adding advertising on your website, should you choose. Not sure you need the money. But hey, just to say, some of us didn't pioneer such a hugely successful enterprise. I'm all for advertising, if done with great products and helps out friends.
all the very best and thanks for the efforts to jog our brains,
Cookie Marenco
As always, very interesting thoughts and great comments.
I play a lot in church situations and got asked to play at a funeral in a couple of days. In every church I've ever worked, the musicians are paid for weddings or funerals. It was made clear that all the band members will be paid - but I declined. It just feels wrong. I don't want the family (or the church) to have to worry about one more detail regarding a very tragic situation.
I have to listen to that still, small voice that tells me what is the right thing to do. It might be good to accept the money at a different time or place. For me, for that event, I cannot in good conscience accept payment.
I know this isn't the same thing as an affiliate referral. But I think that, as artists, sensitivity and sincerity are a very big part of what makes a lot of us tick. It can't be just about money - most of us are never financially rewarded enough to justify what we do.
I have spent a life time in this field of giving since I believe music is a gift that is meant to be given (song "Music is the Only Thing")if it's done for the right reasons to begin with. Of course since it was my only source of income being a full time club performer needing to pay for a house, car, boat, rv, rental property ten mins from the beach, etc., I learned the union rates and then the percentages of paying union agents and then saving costs by doing all the contract work myself. Manage a budget often at my own expense. I then did all the bookings & marketing and so on in order to pay my bills for many years. Then of course I gave plenty of FREE performances to schools, patients in hospitals, and family marriages and events. I would even give away my fee in order to pay the band members on some occasions if it were economically hard for the budget of some organizations or people. But someone had to pay going rates as I learned to tell as the leader we could work it out. I learned that when I became a recording artist that things changed in that respect I became responsible to the investor. The focus changed as well to sales of a product instead of a performance which is the real reason to do concerts & special events when you have recorded product to sell. The club performance was to gain the club the income from the customers who returned over & over to eat food or drink or dance being entertained in the process. Those tips for singing a cover song was a bonus as we were employees of the club or lounges where the customer was the one paying for everyone to work together to make it a success and contracts went in this case for years.
Then when my original songs reached hundreds and were requested by customers over & over, I went into the recording business where the game changed when investments from businesses financed the productions. Then it became the marketing & distribution towards sales. The limited budget was in competition with many larger ones but I made sure the excel logging sheets for expenditures went out to accountant & the investors at the same time. Then I had a theory that those who could make the decisions to provide airplay based on the product would be the best judges but that went well in Europe but not so much in the USA in mid to late 80s. The next phase in marketing the product was to hire the promotion team that was hired by some major record labels if I was to play on the same ball field as they were and the financial investors (who should be businesses that can use the publicity or someone with abilities to right off the investment as contribution towards a goal. Family often loose too much when they invest in up & coming artists unless they are wealthy enough to give the gift but a contract agreement is necessary for this as well. When I did this step of paid radio promoters for regions of the USA then we (CJP-NHRecords) made the US National charts. I had projected the rise of the Independent labels at that time as well as the indie artists back in the early 90s but the powers that be did not see what I saw in the trenches.
Today the ball game of the recording music business has all changed with internet plus clear channels and more political things that some just don't have the time or ability or wants to get into even world wide programming.
There are areas of this recording business that become business as so many customers find themselves molded & directed towards the flashing lights & glitter instead of the substance of a good solid meal on the table.
In other words things in constant change have ability to constantly change & this is NOT a bad thing if you can float with your eyes wide open. Being involved with business to pass it forward would be good karma or what goes around can come around and in time the world of this business becomes smaller than you would imagine. I have experienced all the give aways I did in live performances (clubs, parties etc.) as wonderful gifts without strings but did it out of my love of the music & how it touched people (not an ego boost as much as it was heart filling for a lot of people that made me sleep well at night) vs the switch to the studio productions which were only towards making a product to take to market & sell for the goals of charting & recognition to make more product to sell and so on.
Again today asking for people to forward a joke online that you find funny is about the same as a song you find good to pass forward for 88cent downloads...FREE has a price if you ask the sample people for food products in the store. % is give away to make a sale and should be noted in the budget. Copyrights of all created works need protection or the songwriter and publishers will disappear as the art itself with become lower than poverty level exsistance which we have no Kings & Queens to take songwriters like Mozart or others like Stephen Foster who died penniless into their homes to support while they are creating. It's up to the consumer to download a song if they like it through access. Access needs to be there & everywhere. I can tell you horror stories of non access when charting was obtained which harmed the sales totally and many others who worked hard on projects for the later returns. Oh there are accidents that occur which can also effect business & sales but that should not stop the art or the artist nor the business person who believes in supporting & not destroying it. Know that I was impressed with CDBaby when it started as I was there when the doors online first opened.
I was impressed with the knowledge & the actual heart which was missing in other aspects of distributors off line as well as online, but that was the business boy beast back then. Some feed the bad beast boy and others stayed with the baby who grew up to be loyal and helpful to everyone.
If my word associations are not clear just call me and I'll explain. In not giving w/o strings I think there was a song from Sound of Music that said "nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever could..." and I followed up when burned from those who took advantage of others as well as myself with words in a song: "did you get your Money's Worth and was it worth all your time?" So believe me, Derek aka then CDBaby was worth all of the time CJP-NHRecords aka Nikki spent in being associated with the company. It wasn't the dollar but the emotional support to never stop trying as we all forge ahead in anything in life, even giving away for giving sake, and for the future of maybe or no rewards at all becomes clearer sometimes this way. There is a higher power I believe who is watching what we do more than what is said "Momma's Blues" is another song I released that tells that story.
Thank you and now I go back to work in a job that has been my life time reason for living as "Music Is the Only Thing I've Had"...Nikki Hornsby http://www.cdbaby.com/all/nikki
So it is.
i pay for sex, one way or another, all the time and it is incredible.
just because someone writes something doesn't make it true.
people who produce studies and/or polls can create rsults by the way they conduct the program.
i was a pschiatric aide for 5 years in a children's state hospital and one thing i learned is that the psychatrists and psychologists were some of the craziest motherfuckers there.
one killed his self, the other got committed to an adult hospital, one was hated by almost everyone for being so arrogant.
Is this concept like people who purchase publicists to say great things about themselves?
Or people who hire themselves out to promote your recordings for radio play?
As a professional musician I do love getting paid to play, and I like selling my recording.
On the other hand i just got back from Brazil where I was at this lodge in the middle of the jungle - The Rio Christolino Jungle Lodge. After about a week I needed to get laundry done but there are no washing machines so one can hire a person at the lodge to do your laundry - I guess in the river?
When was leaving and settling my bill - everyone who worked in that area had been enjoying my performances on the flute daily were thanking me and I thought i would trade one of my cds for my dirty laundry- and they were really happy and so wasn't I.
Dirty Laundry = my CDS
what a concept
Helpful as usual and very funny...I know some folks who would help you lift a sofa in hope of finding a dollar tucked on the side...we often call these folks family.
Money is the answer to every question.
I am uncertain/uncomfortable as to things like "affiliate" or "Street Team" (or even "facebook"), so that's probably my own fault for being behind the marketing times, or something. I can say, like other posts, I am wondering precisely what this has to do with my music career. I can get with some of the quasi-dissenting opinions above from D Vidal and M Guy: overwhelmingly people want things for free, not necessarily lessons [praise be, thus I make a living] but performances CERTAINLY, merchandise, sometimes I guess, I don't know, they just want that to be easy to acquire I think mostly. I am into the cosmic aspect of giving, 100%: however, we have to reconcile that living within a capitalistic society (for now), and for those of us that are not hobbyists, we have to get paid just like everyone else gets paid for their work [that doesn't preclude generosity, I'm just sayin] and it has officially become an uphill struggle, if it ever wasn't.
Also, this distinction between social and market, well, with information doubling at an alarming rate, our culture about to turn to steam (Alan Moore), I wouldn't put too much stock in that kind of "this and that" separation, it's old-fashioned starting tomorrow...it's all an intertwining knot of Suchness, and, with all its flaws, myspace is a good example of the two "market" types becoming ridiculously interchangeable, to the point where, you have to throw up your hands and laugh about it.
Take the dollar and laugh, so what? your choice to be insulted or not; move the desk or don't because of your back; pick your kids up ontime or don't and pay overtime to the people working.
What's the mystery.
hey, love the pick DS
Would the day-care situation have been better addressed without involving money? It seems that the issue is a fault in the social mindset, so the result should be a reduction in the social interaction, e.g. three tardies and they aren't allowed to use the daycare for a month.
That might be a bad idea, but it seems to keep the social and market mindsets separate.
i agree with Derek!
You should not have to pay your
fans to support you,instead,buy
enough radio airplay to earn enough
ratings to be added to the general
rotation and things will move
forward from then on.
Hank
I have decided, I don't want to promote, or sell my music.
In fact,
I don't even care if anyone listens!
I released 2 records on c.d. baby.
I have 2 more albums done, and I'm working on my 5th.
But I just give 'em away, give 'em away, give 'em away now . . . on myspace,
100% FOR FREEE!
. . . find me, or don't listen, I don't give a fuck.
L A M M Y ~~~aka~~~ Mr. True
At my grand daughter's after school program which ends at 6 PM, tardy parents are charged $10 per minute. They are not tardy very often.
Great article and timely. AND...if the daycare had re-instituded a $25 fine, they may have fixed the problem, as well as lost a few customers. It's something called the 80-20-30 rule. 20% of your customers will cause you 80% of your headaches; get rid of them and your profits increase by 30%. I think Bugsy Malone came up with that.
hello my friend Derek Sivers...
like i said before You are an exemple to so mamy musicians ,
to mee too ...My response is ,
in life since i came here to the
usa from bruxelles /europe...back
home in haiti i use to sing for the fan of it ...here having managers and lawers opened my eyes
money and the art of music, too me
is priceless...I was attracted to
the independent side of the music industry..So i found Cd Baby..You are honest .You did in did do music for fan ..Clean ...
please ..Dont stop teaching our fellow humans with your talent...
Luko Adjaffi
"People who expect to receive a reward do not perform as well as those who expect nothing" is not a new concept. Look back to the ancient Vedic text, the Bhagavad-Gita to read that, "Desire for the fruits of work must never be your motive in working."
I never thought about it that way before. I have just gained a very useful insight!
NEVER MIX FRIENDSHIP WITH BUSINESS, YOU MUST DRAW THE LINE, BEFORE SOMEONE GETS HURT! I HAVE LIVE THIS RULE FOR A VERY LONG TIME, THAT INCLUDES RELATIVES ALSO.
Really got me thinking about how I work and socialize with people since music is a business and pleasure business. Thanks for sending that along!
God bless,
Jamie
Great article! I used to do an "affiliate" thing where I tried to get people to sell my music and they got a profit from it. Didn't work at all. Terrible idea.
My best idea yet is to give my entire album away for free as a download. All I ask in return is an email address. The response is MUCH better. People think of it as a gift or as something "social" rather than me selling them something.
I have been much better and getting new fans by using free instead of trying to sell them something. The good news is it's better for the art. The bad news is there is no money in it. Just got a BMI statement, 2,000 Internet plays makes about one dollar. 200 college radio plays makes $12.
At that rate, why bother with money at all? I don't even think about it anymore. It's liberating.
Monty
Being tactful and using good judgement about social or market skills are a must. I would think a parent would certainly be there for their child on time as a sign of good parenting, unless, they live in a land of unpredictable commute time. They still certainly should have phoned that they were going to be tardy.
Some gigs I am paid, some I'm not - depends on the venue. One well-meaning venue, unknown to me, gave me a "stage name" and put a cover charge on for the evening, both which hurt me. I would rather have played for free. On the other side, I've found CD sales increased when I put up a poster of my 19 1/2 year old elderly cat, and indicated the proceeds go towards his medical care, which indeed, they all do. I was over $4000 in the hole for that old cat companion. I don't expect anything from listeners, and most of the time I am background music, but when they do tip or buy a CD, I am grateful.
On a nightly basis I have a tourist come up to me & request if I can play a specific song. They give me a dollar tip. Then a Japanese tourist comes up, gives me a napkin w/ 5 songs on it & doesn't tip. I play all 5 songs they wave thanks & get a big applause. Someone please set a standard etiquette for requesting songs.
Great article Derick as usual you have touch manny important points , i never pay for any of these kind of services, like the get you 1000friends thing , gotta be careful , so much con artists out there . keep up the good works man ,
Raspect
Great food for thought, as always! I totally agree with you, Derek. I have found over the course of things that when I discover and enjoy someone's music or work, etc., then it brings me great pleasure to share news of this person and their offerings with another. It flows from the heart and there is no stronger source. There are many profound rewards that come naturally back my way as a result. For instance, when I connect with someone (gems like yourself) who I enjoy, admire, learn from, and such, then you want, can't wait, to tell the world about them. There's a magical, magnetic force or energy that transpires between you and that other person, and that energy waves outward and onward as a result. This happens all the time, including with my Backstage Gourmet Cookbook: Favorite Vegetarian Recipes from the World of Music series to my radio shows and then some. And this energy just keeps on working in a positive direction, bringing everyone good things, in present and future time. No affiliate fee or commission can come close to touching that. Namaste. Patti
Interesting thoughts. I know I wouldn't be comfortable saying to fans "go here and then I'll make a buck so isn't that cool". But then other than with really close friends whose tastes and interests I'm aware of, with fans or potential fans I also don't feel right saying "you'll like it" . I play music because I love it and decided years ago it is a big part of what I have to offer. I have gladly done my share of benefits. To those who don't know me from anywhere I'm happy to offer something for free so they can decide for themselves if they want to hear more. But I also don't feel bad asking for compensation for what I assemble if someone wants it. I believe if I stick to being from the heart those whose lives I enrich in turn enrich mine. Ultimately I don't think entertaining the illusion that I can give everything away for free builds respect, for me as an artist or the importance of the arts in life, not all black or all white.
I am one of many musicians who forget to play for pure enjoyment.
I also met a few musicians recently who are less concerned about how much money, and more concerned about how much fun, challenge, or other sources of accomplishment.
I still think all musicians are underpaid and under appreciated.
'Good article, Derek! And yes, all of the comparisons you sight are right on!
Please allow me to share this with everyone, something I did when we had just finished editing our album yet before we placed it with CDBaby.com, what I consider the perfect means of discovering an album's worthiness:
I went to the local shopping mall with my CD-Walkman and earphones. I was listening to our album and had the thought that I wanted to get opinions from complete and total strangers on some of the songs on the album.
I singled out a young guy in his mid-twenties, walked up to him and asked, "Say man. Would you give this band a quick listen and tell me what you think? I'm thinking about helping them out."
"Yeah sure." The young man said, so I handed him the earphones and clicked the track to our first upbeat song and handed him the Walkman. He turned it up.
In a few seconds, he was bobbing his head to the song and swinging it from side to side. After about one minute, he pulled up one of the earphones and spoke loudly, "These guys are great! I like this song, too. The Marimba really fits in! What's their name?"
I told him, 'Greywolf,' thanked him, and walked away.
Then I saw a middle-aged man and walked up to him, smiling as I asked him the same question, to which he agreed to listen. I clicked the track to one of our Folk/Americana songs and handed him the Walkman. He listened intently, nodding his head and then raising his eyebrows favorably to me.
I thought he was going to listen to the entire song, which was the longest at almost six minutes, when he pulled one earphone up and replied, "I really like this song--the way the singer doesn't sound like Dylan, but has as much to say, ya know: 'I wish I had said that!'"
Then I saw a young black man, whom I thought wouldn't like Folk/Americana at all, as he looked to be a 'Rapper,' but I decided I'd ask him.
He agreed, so I advanced to another upbeat song that had a retired Grammy winner playing lead guitar.
"These guys are great! I don't usually like this kind of music, but this I like!" He exclaimed.
'Long story short: I didn't tell any of them it was me singing and or my band, and I stopped six other people over the hour or so I was walking around, including three young women and a teenage girl; all into the mix.
I'm happy to say: I felt ten feet tall without no doubts in my heart and mind!
But, I hadn't a fan base in over 10 years since I moved away from New Orleans and only did a few gigs in the Dallas/Fort Worth areas, and, most favorable to me: my 'band' was made up of people I had only just met through my co-producer/Eng. who owned the studio we recorded in! "Greywolf: The Band of One; sometimes, some."
What did I reap from this experiment? I knew that we had done something special, and even though I certainly didn't have enough money to even begin to promote the album; I felt that NOW I just might find a backer and my lifetime dream would finally come true, because, I had sought out the opinions of strangers who wouldn't be kind if they knew it was me--should they have disliked what they heard: I'd get the truth beyond reproach from the everyday people who buy the music, and not from some bloated record label sing-song-dude stating that they ONLY produce 'established' bands with 'track records of sales.'
Alas, I got what I wanted: the honest truth from those who know what they liked, over a dozen talk radio shows have played the album with one WWW playing a certain song every month, although I haven't found that 'backer' just yet. It's the worm that hasn't turned, because I don't know how to find them, since I no longer preform, at least, for now . . .
That's why Derek and his views and advice are so important to me: he has been there, fought for his dream, and found it.
We're in GREAT company here folks!
Thanks!
Jason 'Greywolf' Leigh
It will never end....people being perfectly comfortable taking advantage of others or worse agreeing to trade services only to completely stiff the other party even after collecting thier end.
I once agreed to record a fellow performers demo in my studio AND pay him to open for my band at a show that I completely arranged including hall rental, ticket sales,promotion etc... all in exchange for him getting me into several of the clubs that he regularly played. You guessed right...He STIFFED me! I was shocked, but learned that kindness sometimes is stolen from you and returned in the form of a slap in the face. The real twist is you must not become bitter or jaded, but to become SMARTER.... learn to detect false sincerity, it IS possible and the only way for one to hang on to a part of themselves without becoming one of them.
I donate my talent and time just as much as the next guy, but I have learned to keep my bullshit deflector up at all times.
learn to FILTER because there will always be people to take advantage.
I still believe though that EVERY
good thing we do in this life comes back to you ten fold.
This concept was one of the core ideas behind the early success of Soundforge's AcidPlanet as well as CDBaby, I think. Helped us all "revalue" our musical contributions!
Derek,
Great article. I loved it so much I shared it with my son. Very good lessons to be learned and all very true. There is always a fine line when mixing business with pleasure. I'd like to read studies on what happens when the relationship is business first and then becomes more personal. I find that to be a tricky one as well. It can work if the people involved are like minded but results may vary!
Derek,
Great article. I loved it so much I shared it with my son. Very good lessons to be learned and all very true. There is always a fine line when mixing business with pleasure. I’d like to read studies on what happens when the relationship is business first and then becomes more personal. I find that to be a tricky one as well. It can work if the people involved are like minded but results may vary!
The most difficult thing we all have to do is to establish a balance. The market mind set and the personal mind set is a perfect example.
We want our relationships to be sincere . But we also want them to be clear. Not drawing a line between personal and professional relationships inevitably creates problems. I think it's important that we clarify which is which and act accordingly.
Well I get your point but I have a question for you. How do you deal with a market like the one in DOMINICAN REPUBLIC this is where I am now. If you want radio tv or writen press you have to fork out the big money. Payola is a major business here there are a lot of people with very limited musical vocal abilities yet their music is playing in radio stations all over the island because they pay the big bucks. Unfortunately those with no money to pay will not be aired or writen about in the press. The CD pirates who steal music and copy it to sell it forth at the street level they are also charging a fee to artists that want to get their music out there to the public. Sad but true, How do we combat such perverted market. Everyone is on the take in one way or another which makes it very hard to get your stuff heard.
The best solution for the daycare is to start offering an "emergency after-hours child care" program, and whenever a child is not picked up by the agreed-upon time, the child is automatically put in the emergency program. Don't call it a late fee or a fine - that's way too negative. Give it a positive spin and make it sound like it's a great new feature that the daycare is now making available to their valuable customers when they have to work late, etc. Make the parent feel that it is optional and they are voluntarily electing this option, that it's available when they need it...but then make it very, very expensive so that no one wants to pay the "after-hours" fees - perhaps $20 for the first 10 minutes and then $1 per minute after that. Don't charge by the hour, or you will find that people who would have been 10 minutes late will instead run errands etc and take the whole hour before picking up their child. If the daycare makes it costly enough to be late, the parent will be especially conscientious about picking up their child on time, or they will ask an authorized friend or relative to pick up the child on that day rather than pay the high cost of the daycare
s "emergency after-hours child care."
Derek,sometimes life lays it out for us but we have to decide on the right aproach.Decsions as far as business should be carefully applied as to gain customers but also mix profit with good friendships .As far as some one asking for help i think we all need to give more and take les. ((my 2 cents . S.Dee
Great insight! Abraham Lincoln would say that your advice appeals to the better angels of our nature. Derek, I just finished reading your 71 page pdf file on promoting music----some great stuff I want to put into practice immediately. I am 54 and have sold my recordings since 1987. But for the last 2 years my business has gone into a slump. I used to travel a lot and do concerts all over the place and sold most of my product on the road and then developed a postal database and kept selling to people through my website. But everything around me is changing----and changing rapidly. I love creating music and bringing peace and inspiration to people. I am now trying to become current. Derek, your thoughts have motivated me tremendously. Thanks. And yes, I agree. Most people are more than willing to be helpful if properly approached.
So what’s the answer to the day care scenario?
how would this help to promote
my music.
thanx for the info.bless ya!
love will win
It is hard for me to rationalize on things like what you compared.
My logic comes from the principles of honesty and directness, so the person I deal with knows from the start they can trust what I say.
I base this on the principles of Jesus Christ, that being honest, virtuous, and righteous in all that we do, earns us powers from Heaven and eternal life without sin.
Since we are all fallible in this world, it is a process of reconciliation with God, through redemption, and then learning how to hear the voice of God in what we do. It may not be what I want at that point, but what is best for me and all whom I associate with. Helen Nanney
Hi Derek,
Thank you for the advice. Mostly I
already do the same things you recommend. Being extra nice and helpful is never wrong; however some people will take advantage of you over and over again if you let them.
Since I taught piano lessons for 30 years I realized you can't always be as accomodationg as you
would like to be without being taken
advantage of. It isn't the children. It's the parents. Once
they knew how I felt and what I
expected of them it was easy. I loved the children and they loved me. I must have done something right my pupils learned to play music and I always had a waiting list.. . and believe it or not the
parents loved me too. Still do.
Frances Long
I have seen this exact thing in street teams before. My experience has shown that the ones that work the hardest do it out of sincerity and an honest desire to see an artist succeed. I have also seen artists that were paying street team members to promote for them, but the people that they were promoting to could tell they weren't being sincere so I think it weakened their effectiveness.
This reminds me of a speech that Bono gave at a (RED) conference. It's on YouTube. He mentions 2 pieces of wisdom that Waren Buffet gave to him.
-Dont make things easy for people. Make it hard for them. They like that.
-don't apeal to people's charity. Apeal to their greatness.
Thanks Derek!
In my mind, motive is everything. And one should be true to their motives...I have written songs for the purpose of purely love. To help others on this sometimes difficult journey. I don't want any money for those. They are pure and with pure motives of love for others. I have also written songs for business. To sell because they are an art form, a craft to hopefully encourage other art forms...to help enhance moods ext. I would be happy to be respected enough to be given a proper fee for these. Different motive. But really in the end. for me it's more about others and making the picture of life just a little more bearable.....really...
Rachel
The Gift - Creativity and the Artist in the Modern World by Lewis Hyde explores the tension between gift exchange and the market economy.
Nought from the Greeks towards me hath sped well.
So now I find that ancient proverb true,
Foes' gifts are no gifts: profit bring they none.
Reff:> http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/63300.html
welll chuckling loudly I know in reall ife terms whatthismeans the predictably bit rang to me. I write parking tickets at porltand community college when im not cashing all those checks from cdbaby..we had a guy who owed 1200 dollars....when i finally hooked up with him and politely gave him the bad news(people do things for friends not authority figures) he went and paid it in CASH..ive learned alot from that job...
ive paid for sex.. prbably 1000 times - it was always fine no prbas. with that but if a neighbro wanted to pay me for helping ill do that for free.. a little goes along way...
of course... Gene simmons would probably disagree with ya....he GAVE away Van Halen.. though
I am in the business world and I am not selling millions of cd's. When I tell someone or beg them to buy my Cd or give one as a donation or gift There is the fan factor. My fans play them at work burn copies for friends tell everyone they love it.To make it big you must tour and get air play and this takes working capital. To be a successful artist you must first be happy at every level and never make it all about money, because some people will never rip the shrink wrap if they feel pushed to buy. A true fan if they can choose their fate will want to die listening their favorite track of your disk after the Fan factor...Which is priceless..ALORA
Amazing coincidence! The biggest selling CD we ever had was Detroit Women and we went into it thinking "Wow... these gals are really great and very exciting... we have to get people to hear their performance..." Yes, we thought about the reward (a bit) in that we hoped sales would cover costs but we went to THREE pressings which was a first for us... I think I still feel better about the reward I got which was helping the girls outgrow us and into a bigger label...
I am in the business world and I am not selling millions of cd's. When I tell someone or beg them to buy my Cd or give one as a donation or gift no matter how they obtain it...There is the fan factor. My fans play them at work burn copies for friends tell everyone they love it.To make it big you must tour and get air play and this takes working capital and hard work. To be a successful ARTIST you must first be happy at every level and never make it all about money, because some people will never rip the shrink wrap if they feel pushed to buy. A true fan if they can choose their fate will want to die, or keep living listening to their favorite track of your disk AFTER the Fan factor...Which in and of itself is priceless..www.aloramusic.com
i read more than 100 comments..
i'm left with 2 questions..
1) Did Discmakers buy CDbaby?
2) Will there be a "stocking charge" for physical cds that don't sell within a year?
hi Derek
very good presentation. any person should not have to pay or somehow "reward" their friend or customer to sign up or enroll that customer's friends or acquaintenances. if they like you and value you enough, they will do that on their own good will.
on the other hand there is nothing wrong with asking a customer, "are you happy with my service, are you happy with my music?" if the answer is yes, then you should tell them, "I'm glad you liked it." very simple and true.
in regard to the daycare center, they could have used a little bit better "child psychology"
I find that in teaching music to others, the reward for the student comes from doing the thing well, rather than in any physical, or monetary reward. This same idea applies to life I think...the reward comes from being the best person you can be, and doing the best you can at whatever you do. You get to keep your freedom and integrity(worth more than money can buy).
Well, in my counseling job and after a ton of schooling, one of the things they taught us in Psych of Learning was that occasional reward (intermittent feeding) was by far more addictive than no reward at all. Doing something repeatedly without getting something out of it once in a while (and usually unpredictably) decreased drive to do the activity.
Hence I continue to write for film/tv, lol.
This is NOT in any way to say that turning our ideas to market mindset is a good idea, only that perhaps occasionally offering to pay that neighbor back by mowing his yard or something would create an even playing field (or close to it, depending on how stuck that desk was, lol).
Jes mho though. I don't really know how this fits in with my customers......I've considered with my cowriters adding in a freebie tune on our site for faithful fans that would be theirs alone, a little lagniappe for sticking with us (and me) over the long haul.
Dear Derek,
I just read the article, The Power Of No Reward. Having read it, I'd like to pose a question to based on the article.
I had worked in the studio's in Hollywood in the 80s and 90s, and made friends with lots of people who had record deals at the time. Last year, I got inspired about a year ago and decided to take a crack at the tribute record business.
Once I got in the tribute business I decided to contact lot's of these old friends and see if they would cut tracks for my tribute records. Many of them said yes and are working on tracks right now.
No money has ever been discuss with anyone so far. I think some of them are cutting tracks just because they like the velvet underground. I've talked to some other people who have tribute labels and I learned that paying artists 9.1Cents per track sold is the going rate on small tribute records. It doesn't sound like much, but when you multiply it times 13 tracks and
figure the publishing in as well, it comes to $2.35 in royalties per CD. When you add in manufacturing and promotion there isn't much left for me.
So here's the thought. Based on the article you sent, "The Power of No Reward," I wonder if some of these people, who are happy to be doing this project for free at the moment, will become insulted and go into the " I deserve lots of money" mode when they see the 9.1Cent per track royalty rate.
Any thoughts on this and how to broach the subject with my happy group of artists. You're thoughts on this are greatly appreciated.
Best Wishes,
Chas Ferry
In business pass, I've made the mistake of offering comp for referrals. It feels like selling your soul, really, and it's also like saying, I'm really not worth it. As far as the day care thing, they are already a for profit cause, they should increase their late fee, like one post'r already said, "until it hurts". Kids are sad when they are picked up late; My kids were and I lived with guilt for many years, until I retired and became a better mom.
To Ran Berkin, you are the winner of the day!! Super Super cool solution. Super positive!!!! More expensive, though
I bet I know someone who has that warm fuzzy feeling after reading all these replies...and it ain't me.
But, if I were in that persons shoes, and had had their good fortune(or reward), I'd probably be humbled also. That being said, I also know this persons heart is in the right place. Nobody in their right mind would grow a company to success and then give it away.
Money drives everything...without it, it's very difficult to survive.
I would love to have the financial ability, or stability, to give of myself free of charge...always. But, being a business owner, I also know the reality of survival.
This quote from over some 20 studies is outright stupid.
"people who expect to receive a reward do not perform as well as those who expect nothing."
What a generalization.
Does that apply to everything? Or does that just apply to things like helping your neighbor move a piece of furniture. I don't see how that could remotely apply to the arts and entertainment industry.
If I play a gig for free, or if I'm getting paid, my hearts in it the same either way.
Let's turn that around...
If I'm paying someone to perform, I expect them to perform better than someone I'm just taking advantage of.
That makes more sense.
I will be very honest with you. I started playing music when I was 12 years old. For several years my music was certainly not marketable. In that time of my life I learned how annoying I was to some people. Ever since that time I developed sort of a guilt complex over my love of music and other peoples hatred for it. Now I feel like my music causes more harm than good for some people. Henceforth I mostly refrain from saying anything about money. It goes with the Karma thing. If my music causes another person to stumble in his walk with the LORD,then that's reason enough not to expect much from doing it.
Michael Autry
chellezan.com
Derek,
You are a God-send, especially to the independent musician;always something to stimulate the mind and our thinking.
Thanks,
Ernie
To do something 100% and purely for the love of doing it usually unfolds untold amounts of "wealth" in ways you never could have imagined, but you can not go looking for it.
)
what is money anyway? If we really explore that, we get to what truly motivates us and that is mostly the fear of not having it!! Hey this is really making me think!!! thanks Derek
Dear Derek,
Your concept is so true. I have just created a new website and included in the website are a lot of freebees. Downloads such as free music notation games that teachers can use in the classroom. Articles on new music which can be freely downloaded. Detailed commissions procedure for both composers and commissioners to use and copy free. I did this because I wanted to share the information but subsequently the hits on the site have increased four fold. Individuals go to the educational page download the freebees and then explore the other product pages. So yes the idea you suggest works on many levels. I intend to do a recommended performers page on my site to help promote those performers that promote new music.
Great concept Derek and one that really works.
Regards
David
All money isn't good money. Be careful how you spend it. Be careful how you get it.
Derek,
Great stuff to ponder. I too was wondering what would be the best thing to do in the day care scenario. You are right though - I always heard it's best not to mix friendship with business and it's a hard line to walk if you do. I treasure your advice and got a good laugh out of the the "pay for daycare with sex" response...my silly response to them is (to oppose the old cereal commercial) "Tricks AREN'T for kids" : )
Wish I read the article earlier as I just paid someone with sex to link to your website's posting. And I think I left the kid at daycare since last month, but it's worth the $90 to be late.
A lot of people commented on how money changes the relationship.I agree but unfortunately we live within a system where we need money. My only source of income is with music so its hard to take the money out of it. If you have seen Zietgeist Addendum you should. I'm all for a world without money and I would gladly give my music away for free and make music just for the hell of making it.
What is money anyways, it's a material piece of paper that's not even backed by gold anymore! What's gold, a piece of shiny rock found in the ground that's now very rare because everyone and there dog wanted it for some reason--because it's shiny-- what's true value-- it's giving and asking nothing in return! Couldn't we call this Love? What is Love---Love is Everything!
I love this website. The articles here are easy to read, well thought out and just generally fresh. It's not the same rehashed "10 simple ways to XYZ" that gets pumped through so much of the internet.
thank you
Hi Derek ;
The practice of reward in this context is dehumanizing , and it's symptomatic of the internet phenomenom which insists that numbers are everything ; it's pushy . As well as the my/twit/face-space phenom . Everyone is your friend even though they don't know you .That has to have a downside ; namely noone really listens to your music but theyre hoping your 'friends' will discover them and so on . So people just use your space for free ad space . Something about that offends me as a person , and I don't behave this way when I post to someone's site .if I post to someone's site it will be about them , no question about it . If they take a reciprocal interest in me , well , allright , I really didn't see that coming , but OK ! In that regard , we still get to be people instead of opportunists .
Thanks for reading ,
Mark Campbell , Austin , Texas
Yep, insight worth serious application - we've found that those who get our music free are LESS likely to listen to it/spread the word/leave a review than are those who've paid for it. Running this latest promo stint, $2 downloads pre-pre-sale (weak response) $4 presale (better response) the day we raised the prices to full retail, we had more sales - sometimes folks want to pay more feeling like there must be something wrong with it if you're willing to sell it too cheap
Great article!
makes a lot of sense...kick ass...looking forward to more such posts..greetings from the indian subcontinenet!
Hi Derek.
Very good article.
But I've never thought in rewarding my friends to promote something!
Only when I started valuing myself and expecting to be paid did I get paid for my music. In turn, when I hire someone, even if they are friends, I pay them. It's professional and means I value their work. When my friends play with me and the gig didn't pay, still, I take them to dinner, make some kind of exchange. If you don't have money to pay people, then barter your services. I think when you're always trying to get things for free the world tries to get you for free too. But I don't ask for payment for everything. I give mp3s away to folks on my email list, make homemade buttons to give away at gigs. Certain things are priceless and must be given freely, and the emotional connection made from it is worth it. But always ask for payment for cds, free cds are worthless, the object means nothing these days. Put money and effort into making them well-made and their worth will be apparent. Sometimes an unpaid house concert or gig has earned me several hundred dollars because everyone has put money into the hat. But that comes from the promoter/house owner's attitude. If they take charge and a hat is passed with clear intention then people will pay.
I actually really wonder if there are exceptions to this rule. I have a friend that's really good with art design. I asked him to make me a cover for my CD. I thanked him profusely. The only time I talk to him is when I need his skill. I would feel really bad if he thought I was just using him. In that case wouldn't it be the right thing to pay him? Or is that supposed to be market mindset? "It's strictly business."
Is it better to ask, "You are really good. I would love for you to make me a design." And then without telling him, I would slip him some money afterward. However, the next time I ask him, wouldn't he expect money from me?
Also, if I am getting paid money to do something, I would want to do it right. If I don't get paid, then I feel like I'll half-ass everything.
Any input?
Its the begining of trade isnt it ?
I do this for you,you do that for me.
If a friend offeres you a small amount of cash it may be all they can afford or they have not got the skills to thank any other way.
I dont get offeneded i just say"its ok dont worry"
Take the view that the offer is a good thing and not an attack on your worth.
If however you are offered a job for a set price and the job changes into the otherside pushing you to do favors ,be very clear what you agreed and stand your ground.
True friends dont mess you around.
Is it that people who say they are your friends and push you to the limits are NOT friends.
Or are they trying to push you to another level ?
Its always your choice so ha ha.You are in control.
Its balance.
I need a favor Derek.
Im a good man and I need you to promote me more that anyone else including yourself.
You can take what ever you want from me but I want to be the focus and not you.
Seems fair to me ?
That a joke by the way..........
I'm not into money, just my music with 29 international releases albums. My producer is Horsrt Liepolt in NY. I have 4 jazz symphonies to be aired yet.I'm touring and playing with Richie Cole, US great alto jzz artist, I've toured, and playd with him and recorded an album called aclouds in Australia. next year with the outcome of yet another CD we'll be touring again.
So you see only you can come up with your implide ideas, do lay them on me GD Baby....it's really up to you. I'm an naive idealist who wants to be and I am an idealist contoversial inovator. Google Serge Ernoll's Free Kata , I record the first spontsnious improvisations in Australia with a seried of albums entitle athe NEW language of MUSIC FREE KATA.
All my berstb to yoy...and withrespect YOU trell me what you want. You can see through me easily,
Love and great thoughts and swishes to you always,
Serge.
Social mindset is a spiritual quality I feel. There is a sense of inner fulfillmemt in doing something for someone or some cause from the heart;but sometimes wisdom must prevail and beware of market mindset that can exploit social mindset. What better opportunity for market mindset is there than exploitation. What better success can there be than to profit without loss. So add wisdom to the blessing of social mindset.
Good artical..The best things in life are free.
Hey there, Derek!
What an excellent point. The Internet seems to have made us all amateur marketers, which only compounds this problem. I wonder how many potential social relationships have been crushed by the "Marketing Mindset?"
I like the "search engine overload" commercials that I've been seeing lately as they seem to hit the conversion we've all gone through on the nose.
Keep the great content rolling, man!
Thanks Derek! You're always serving up great food for thought and practical information. Keep it comin'!!!
How true. How True! FYI. My band makes a point of referring to friends of the band as just that... friends NOT FANS. We try to constantly maintain that personal relationship.
Years ago I performed with a band where the leader of which used to push CDs for sale on the people of the audience to the point of annoyance.
There was this one particular couple who were friends of the that particular band for many years, coming out to support the band, bringing our friends and talking us up to club owners. They were personally responsible for getting us several good paying gigs.
The band released a recording and instead of giving a copy to the couple as a well deserved thank you from one friend to another, the band leader offered them a "$5 discount" if they bought one. They were hurt deeply and we never saw or heard from them again.
Their acts of friendship were cheapened by his turning the relationship into one of a strictly business.
Here's a saying that works:
"A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed." (Proverbs 11:25 NIV)
Grattitude seeks to reward those who don't expect anything back.
I have a friend who has a giving nature. He always wants to pay when we meet for lunch. If he called me in the middle of the night and asked me to bring him a light bulb for his sister's neighbor's porchlight I would be there.
Awesome Derick!
This is such a great topic. I love the idea of giving. When I meet an old friend or make a new friend, I always want to give them something. If they don't have one of my CDs or DVDs, it's a perfect gift.
However, some folks seem to have a gift for selling. They could also run into a friend and would have no problem selling them a CD instead of giving it away. Not only that but the buyer is left with a feeling that they are part of something exciting and have helped an artist!
I would like to be better at this. What's the answer?
Hi Derek,
Thanks again for another of your great advises about the life in general.
This information is very helpful
The Music Business is just that, Business. Business = Money. I don't want to work for free, play for free, give my CD's or downloads away for free. I want to be paid for my Work. I don't know anyone who goes to Work for free. Why should Musicians?
I do agree with what you say to the extent of which you speak but not for you Art, Product or Services'.
Lucky
Derek,
I was going to mention the daycare center example! You stole my thunder!
Thanks, though, for the cool topic!
Excellent subject and presentation.
Friends want to do things for their friends solely because of friendship
Hey Derek
Interesting It seems like today everybody thinks they have to be in a market mindset to get something,What ever happened to just helping out and being friendly.The social mindset is a much more healthy outlook on life
J.
Post no.53 by Mr. Vidal is right on the money.
I recently did a show in one of my hometowns where everything was fairly normal.The sound was sketchy, the accomodations took an hour to straighten out after a five hour drive, and the money was just fair.
But I had also been asked to speak about songwriting at the local library, for 'a modest honorarium'.
I figured what the hell, and never asked what the honorarium was.
It turned out to be more than the gig paid.
Randy Handley
YOU GOT ME TO THINKING.
BUSINESS IS BUSINESS!! BUT WE ALSO HAVE OUR PERSONAL LIVES AND OUR SOCIAL LIVES.IF WE MIX BUSINESS WITH PERSONAL WE HAVE SOCIAL.WE NEED TO HAVE, IN MY OPINION, A BALANCE OF ALL 3. SOCIAL IS MORE FRIENDSHIP AND WHO DOESN'T NEED A FRIEND. I'M JUST TRYING TO CLARIFY THIS FOR MYSELF.IT'S OK TO GIVE AWAY FREE THINGS AND YOUR FREE TIME AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT EXPECTING SOMETHING IN RETURN. IT'S A SOCIAL ENERGY OF FRIENDSHIP. BUT IF YOU WANT TO EARN MONEY IT MUST BE A BUSINESS.THE SOCIAL ENERGY IS FRIENDSHIP. THE BUSINESS ENERGY IS PROFIT.
AN EXAMPLE:
I AM A SINGER AND WANTED MORE OPPORTUNITY TO SING. SO I HIRED MUSICIANS TO COME TO MY HOME AND INVITED FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS TO COME LISTEN AND I SERVED REFRESHMENTS. I PUT OUT A DISH THAT SAID "YOUR DONATIONIS APPRECIATED."(MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE PASSED THE HAT LIKE THE OTHER PERSON DID THAT WROTE TO YOU) ANYWAY, THIS WAS LIKE HAVING A PARTY, A SOCIAL EVENT SO OF COURSE THE DONATIONS ARE NEVER ENOUGH TO PAY MUSICIANS AND FOR THE FOOD.
WHEN INVITING SOMEONE TO THE NEXT "MUSICAL"AT MY HOME, SOMEONE WHO HAD BEEN TO THE LAST ONE SAID "AND THE FOOD AND REFRESHMENTS ARE GREAT!" THEY WEREN'T EVEN COMING TO HEAR THE MUSIC.I HAD MIXED MY PERSONAL NEED WITH BUSINESS AND MADE IT SOCIAL. ANOTHER WAY OF LOOKING AT IT IS THE PEOPLE WHO CAME GAVE ME AN OPPORTUNITY TO SING, WHAT I LOVE TO DO. THAT IS MY REWARD.
I AGREE WITH THE PERSON WHO SAID CHARGE PEOPLE WHO COME LATE TO PICK UP THEIR KIDS, $15.00. THAT KEEPS IT BUSINESS WITHOUT IMPOSIG ON THE TEACHERS PERSONAL TIME.THE SOCIAL ENERGY MOVES IN IF BUSINESS ISN'T CLEAR.
THANK YOU DEREK FOR HELPING ME CLARIFY THIS.
SINCERELY,WITH BEST REGARDS,
JOANIE JAY
I think it's also important to KNOW the type of people that your dealing with. If your dealing with primarily business men and women the market mindset may be more what their accustomed to. They they MAY be more inclined to participate in an affiliate program, or work harder knowing that they WILL get something out of it. If I am promoting my music to friends and fans that I know and trust yea I would use more of a social mindset. However, if I am trying to market to a group of people who dont know me, I may take a combination of the two philosphies. In my mind, if i am giving away something totally for free it's like BEGGING please like my music, please tell your friends and now allowing the music to speak for itself. So maybe a scenario like after a gig "I hope you enjoyed my music, i have CD's available for purchase and for tonight only since you were such a great audience I am cutting the price in half" I dont know something like that where your treating them as customers as well as human beings. That has seemed to work well for me. Great thinking piece Derek thanks!! Michael Joseph
www.myspace.com/michaeljosephcountry
I enjoy your web. About the daycare illustration, business is business. A sign should be posted "Business hours 7 to 5 (or whatever) No exception. Additional time will be charged at the rate of so much per hour. The business should make it worth while.
A true friend is always willing to pay you; a true friend is always willing to help you for nothing in return. Musicians have many, many friends; they want to buy your albums, and they expect to pay for tickets to your concerts. It's an honor for a friend to contribute to a friend's financial success. My professional advice to musicians is: "Don't insult your friends by charging too little." It's better to charge more than to charge less. The psychology, here, is that your music is extremely valuable to your fans, and if you down grade that value by charging too little, it will ultimately disappoint the fan who is buying it because you have placed a lower value on your own music, thereby, contradicting the opinions of your fans. Fans need to be right-on in their estimation of your value; don't insult them by charging $5 for a CD when they expect to pay $12. You will sell more at a higher price. With good PR they'll buy your second and third album, too.
I think this is an exeptionally good article by Derek Sivers; and I've been reading most of the comments; I also believe that every musician in the business of being a professional would be willing to pay Sivers for the advise he puts forth in these articles. Because we live in a capitalistic society, social thought and marketing thought are found in the same arena, and must be dealt with, at least to some degree or another, simultaneously. The arts reflect society; society reflects the arts. Your friends are the great supporters of the humanities; and it's a great feeling for them to do so.
Great job, Derek. You truly are a great asset to musicians world-wide; you are priceless.
Hmmm...this makes me want to rethink our affiliate program...but I wonder if there is a way to give rewards without compromising the intent of talking about an exciting product?
You are one smart cookie, Derek. That's why you have made such a success of your business.
I enjoyed reading the article very much. Food for thought. Thank you for sharing it.
Thanks Derek
The right words at the right time
are priceless
Interesting piece. I have a thirty year career as a middle class musician. Balance between giving and maintaining a fee based structure is crucial. talking with people about my "work" is important because they call it "playing" music.
Part of giving for me is to help other musicians to get paying gigs.
www.wholewheatradio.org has been a great asset to me. I have met people from a worldwide audience there!
http://www.myspace.com/richbaumannsinger
also is where I share my music.
Many Blessings,
Rich
"Next time you’re thinking of rewarding your friends or customers with cash, think how offensive it would be to offer to pay for sex."
Such a great quote, Derek. And so true.
When I see those Sky TV ads that say "introduce a friend to sky and get £100" I think my friend(s) would be insulted if I encoraged them to sign up for overpriced TV just to get £100.
I find myself shouting at the TV, "up yours, Sky Broadcasting!".
I agree with number 72 but I am beginning to think like number 151...I have been doing basically tips or "freebees" for 35 years...everyone says they "love my music"...particularly a song called, "Bend Down". Some of my friends in the band drive to the gig from 30 miles plus (one way) to play because they like the music. It seems true that if you give something away it has no perceived value, but if you charge a nominal fee the item somehow is more important. Just some thoughts.
Derek, did you start out in the "coffee shop" circuit?...I think not.
The best thing Iread here is that the best things in life aren't things. Great. Deep. And true.
Dominik
The Daycare should have charged $5 a minute for every minute late the parents were.
Sorry Derek,
What were you saying? I was busy helping a guy carry a desk to the third floor.
He's now my new best friend. Wait until he catches site of my NEW Baby Grand.
Regards, Michelle Scott-Chiodo
aka J.Michelle Scott
The analogy between selling music and selling day-care has a problem. One is a need and the other is a want. People either enjoy the music or they don't. Feeling sorry for the musician may work in the subway but, the internet is a lot colder. Open mics on the other hand can be an excellent place to sell CDs.
My daycare charges me a dollar for each minute I'm late. Must be paid before the child can return and the money goes straight to the worker(s) that had to stay late.
The market mindset reinforced the true value of the social mindset.
In music, reinforce the value of the social relationship. "It costs us $x to advertise our new hit, but we aren't asking for your money, we just want you to help us out by telling two people about our song."
Excellent advice Derek and so true!
Derek and fellow posters,
Myself and my fiance have only been living in Las Vegas for a short time when we were interviewed by Bonnie Eyez Mercardo from VH1 on her radio show Real Talk Radio. I've been managing my fiance and I don't push my own music as much as I tried to do in the past. Being asked by Bonnie Eyez Mercardo for her to interview us has sparked interest in my fince's music. It made us feel good to give out free information to new unsigned musicians, we spoke about what we've done and what NOT to do.
During my years of creating music, I've opened for many well known major record label artists over the past 29 years, and I was even a personal friend with John Lennon back in the 70s and throughout 1980. The experiences have been priceless.
Copy and paste the following to listen to the interview ---->
http://www.alltalkradio.net/alt/show.php?folder=realtalk
In the Archives, Click on 06-30-09 to listen to Bonnie Eyez Mercardo interviewing myself and Victoria.
If the new owner of CDbaby.com starts charging for ANYTHING more, I'll drop CDbaby in a heartbeat.
Great article Derek.
Thanks for your free insight.
~Mark Johnson~
www.myspace.com/rhythmsreason
Derek if all of your "stories" are like the two I just read, I'm going to be REALLY happy I signed up for daily emails
Thanks for spending so much time contributing to others' lives & success!
The whole idea of artists selling their art is ridiculous. It's just plain wrong. We need to find a more logical paradigm. Look at that dumbass RIAA. For God's sake. The damned lawyers and other shirts get all the money anyway. Me, I give stuff freely. If someone wants to cough up some bux, so much the better. I sleep very well. I admit it: I'm clueless. But dig this - there's nothing more heartbreaking than watching talent grind their asses into the ground just trying to be heard. It's as bad as a stand-up comic 'dying up there'. The artists I work with don't give two shits on a stinking damn about 'making it'. They are too engaged in 'making' their art. If this sounds snobby to some of you, excellent! Know thyself.
So in my mind, considering the world as i now know it, the mere asking for money or to be paid, should not be so difficult or 'wrong' or offensive. And anyone who is offended by it, isn't seeing a the monetary value in what you're asking to be paid for or ... they've developed an expectation that they should get their coffee for free at a cost to someone else.
They also only give away work in situations that can be a good tradeoff for them professionally.
So maybe the question or topic isn't really that we should NOT be asking to get paid but rather - how does one (an artist/musician, etc) create perceived value in their product/work that people are willing to pay for?
Personally, I think good work sells itself or else good sales people sell anything.
I do think your original example rings true and the concept of social rules versus market rules is really interesting. However i do think that artists are, for better or worse, in the business of straddling both those worlds if they need or want to make money with their art. Maneuvering the business with the social is an art in itself.
I feel that anything i want or need has value to me and if someone else is providing it, then why shouldn't they be able to name their price? the question is, what do i perceive the value for that service is? what am i willing to pay for it?
I would never ask someone to help me without getting a sense of what they would like in return. I'd also never try to force my product or art on anyone by asking them to pay me something before they'd developed a connection to my work - before they'd begun to see the value in it. But i probably wouldn't give my work away to someone who wanted it - for free. but what you want - is for someone to WANT your work.
So why NOT ask for the value in your product to be recognized? If people aren't willing to pay, maybe they don't see a value in your product, service, artwork?
Amazingly, i've seen TERRIBLE artwork sell for large amounts of money because the artist basically, believes in his or herself, has good representation, and isn't afraid to ask to be paid. In this case, they have some ability to convince others to WANT their work. Also, there's no accounting for taste.
So two points: Either never think about money and have someone else deal with that for you so you can focus on the love, creativity and the reward of doing (which as an artist i would LOVE, prefer and opt for), or see the monetary value in your work/product enough so that you can convince others to see it too... I mean the money has to come from somewhere, right?
oh and regarding your final point about how offensive it would be to be offered money for sex? Not to sound disgustingly cynical because actually i'm quite the opposite, but - there are SOME men (not all) out there who SHOULD be paying women for sex! to assure that she at least gets something other than wasted time and emotional baggage out of the interaction. And let's be honest - most men DO PAY FOR even a chance at sex with someone - it's called a date. That's not offensive. it would be more offensive if they didn't try to pay. and this is not completely off topic, either, because let's face it - we will all pay (or wish we could pay) for what we want - and our perceived value is reflected in what we are willing to do or pay to get what we want.
I found the comment about raising the rate until people aren't late again amusing... make it expensive enough and people will take their business somewhere else, I know I would.
Treat people like human beings.... yeah, like you want to be treated. Things happen in life... we are late, stuck in traffic, not feeling well, called late at the office, or just not very motivated... when we are more understanding of these things, we build customer bases and increase our outreach. We become 'people magnets'.
Also, there are those who will abuse situations. These can be dealt with one on one... another form of relationship building.
Bottom line? When the focus is merely on the bottom line, the bottom line disappears.
How true. I can say that the success of my entire music career is based on the social mindset of doing things without expectation of reward, and the rewards have come. See http://www.lunchensemble.com, where we've raised more than $1,000,000 through our music to help support community outreach programs.
Bill Pere
Founder and Executive Director, LUNCH
President and Executive Director, CT Songwriters Association
IMC Indie Artist of the Year
An Official Connecticut State Troubadour since '95
Director, CT Songwriting Academy
Author, "Songcrafters' Coloring Book: The Essential Guide to Effective and Successful Songwriting"
http://www.billpere.com
http://www.lunchensemble.com
http://www.ctsongs.com
http://www.ctsongwriting.com
http://www.songcrafterscoloringbook.com
"One of the Top 50 Guiding Lights of the Music Industry" - Music Connection Magazine"
Oh man, I needed to hear this.
A while ago, I landed a well paying accompianment gig.. I needed a drummer, and so I asked my good friend Byron to play for it, telling him what the gig paid ($100) before I even told him anything about the gig. Byron is incredibly talented and has always been the most reliable drummer I've known, but for this gig, he was way late AND unprepaired, which took me by surprise.
I see now, why that was! It makes so much sense.
I guess when it comes to paying gigs, the trick is to find that balance between social mindset and market mindset.
huh.
Hi Derek !
Very interesting but an affiliate code is better about the business.
Thank much for the advice and my neighbours. Yes ! it's a true.
Interesting and provocative conversation. Reminds of the core premise of "The Gift" by Lewis Nash. Many rich lessons are gleaned from his book. Namely, there is the gift of art, creating and sharing it, and then there is the transference of money or "payment" for the art. Once commerce is involved, everything changes.
.
As for the daycare's disrespectful parents...if the consequence was severe enough, they would be on time! Ask anyone who has served in the military. For one of my businesses, I presently have a retail kiosk in a mall. If you are late opening your store, you are charged a $100 fine, PER HOUR that you are not open. Huge consequence.
Numerous biblical scriptures and folk parables come to mind with this issue of The Power of No Reward.
In my 20 odd years or so at being a working musician, I've played to tables and chairs night after night in empty clubs and have had to pay my band members out of my 9 to 5 salary, and have had the other end of the spectrum with well paid gigs replete with all the trimmings. I've given hours of consultations, lessons, CDs or performances (with no compensation asked), and I've also given the same and charged as much as the purchaser could bear. I've also made referrals for which I have earned "commissions" for everything from airline tickets to gigs, and from job placements to legal advice. (In these situations, I always let the parties involved know who was getting what and why, so everyone could remain at choice in the matter.) I've also, thankfully, been humbled by the generosity of a mentor, friend or associate who gave in various circumstances, pivoting my career for the better. I learned volumes, in these latter instances, of The Power of No Reward. I have come to feel differently about this issue. I'd like to think now, that I've come full circle.
Its a social, business (and moral) responsibility to pay the musicians in the example above, even if I lost money on the gig. Should I then have gone to the person who referred me for the gig where I lost money to compensate me for my loss? They thought they were helping me. This was a social exchange of information. I put myself in a "market" scenario by taking the gig. If it were a positive outcome, what social responsibility do I then have for the increased commerce, or resulting marketability the gig could afford me?
If I refer you to a book I like, and you buy it, and I receive a commission as an affiliate, but you hate the book, do I give you the commission I earned? If I did or did not, have I bartered my integrity, and is our relationship changed? Was it worth it? If someone benefits from a recommendation, does the benefit became a matter of "market" mindset? Isn't a recommendation made for the purpose of a seeming or needed benefit?
If you buy the book to help my career efforts, you may not care if you like the book or not. There are many subtleties involved. No matter what the internet affords us in market exchange, as humans, we are social beings. On some level, there is always a subtle mixture of both mindsets, market and social.
It is easy to be in a mindset to want to be compensated for giving your
experience or opinion to other artists or fans, justifying your reward(s) or fees by the requisite "dues" you paid while endeavoring to manifest a career in music. So this sense of entitlement about a market mindset for anything connected to your art -- be it actual tangibles, like a concert, a trip with the band, backstage passes or merchandising "goodies -- or your art making process, where someone is a "fly on the wall" while you create, has become a popular answer to the problem of funding projects and/or paying your rent.
True "sharing" and "giving" is very convoluted in our present day. According to George Fraser, the true principle of networking is seeped in "what can I do for my brethren", not as it exists now in the "how can we help (source) each other."
In his example, you should not expect reward when giving -- for true networking. It's a "pay it forward" mindset that is at the crux of this paradigm. You give because the person in front of you has a need(s), and you are not concerned on when or from whom your benefit comes.
I know some people (and we have all met them) who think that a friend in need is a pest!
In this Power of No Reward issue, I'm also reminded of the sayings from one of my favorite modern day thinkers on money and personal development, T. Harv Eker, "How You Do Anything, Is How You Do Everything!" I see in some of the comments, there is some anxiety or even anger around this issue. Therein lies a clue...."if it offends you, its for you."
I'd like to offer up, for all interested in making peace with this, to read Nash's book. In "The Gift" we can find some thoughts to guide our choosing a place to stand on this issue, maybe allowing one to stay in integrity with their own spiritual principles, because ultimately, I think, this is a very spiritual principle at play (play on words unintended
With the music industry being in an intense state of flux and the issues around being compensated for your art, your time or your opinion (referrals) we each have an incredible opportunity to redefine all areas of gift exchange. I love that Derek makes us think, and has offered up such a great topic for dialogue. Thanks Derek!
I find that...the older I get...the less apt I am to be taken seriously enough to actually be supported by enough friends and fans to make a living at this...the more my focus has actually moved away from the Social Mindset and toward the Market Mindset. I guess as I've gotten older and have less life left to really make anything significant happen (actually make a living by playing my music) I have shifted to being willing to play almost anything for money. (Except hip-hop...because it does actually have to be music...ha-ha.)
But my point is that the window seems to close more quickly as you get older...and your focus really shifts to a Market Mindset to compensate for the time you feel has been wasted or stolen by giving away your talent for 'favors to friends' or for free.
Derek,
Thanks for your posting and allowing for others to respond. It's very educational to read other ideas about your topics.
I believe the investment (money and practice) I make and that my parents made in my musical education needs to be rewarded. Receiving money for performing, for CDs, for music creativity is necessary for the survival of art.
If music gives people enjoyment and entertainment, then the artist should be compensated in some way. Getting paid for RESULTS (making people feel good) is more important than for time! I suggest reading "Harv Eker" and some of his ideas.
Thanks again for sharing your ideas about this topic.
Robert
This really depends upon the situation and the reward.
Sure it sounds insulting to offer your neighbor or a friend a dollar for helping you.
However if no one will help you and you know your neighbor's desire for pizza you might offer your neighbor a free pizza from your work for fixing your bike's flat tire.
Maybe the place where everyone was tardy instead of charging people for being late they could have rewarded them for being early.
I mean money isn't the only thing you could offer.
Also somethings are worth more than money.
I mean which would you rather have money or your favorite cake or pie ?
You really need to know the person or persons your working with to know whether you need to offer them something or not.
But as far as getting people to refer people to your website your best result is to have things on your website that are unique and interesting so they will tell people.
So I totally agree that people that are getting paid to refer someone to a website are not the best source to tell you the website is good.
A reward depends on pomp and circumstance. If my boss asks me to stay late and help out a slow employee I do it knowing good karma will return.
great article! concise and to the point. love the message.
It's the gifted marketeer who can successfully dress the marketing mindset in social mindset clothing. How does one do that?
I keep a simple policy in order:
No pay ,No play.
Exception:
The occasional charity gig of MY choosing.
Why would I go out my way for a dollar?
I totally agree with you, Derek. We're all here to help and support each other and we know it. It's through helping and supporting others that we can experience true fulfillment in life. The heart is what is most important and every offering from the heart replenishes us and those we make the offering to, and by selfless caring and sharing everyone "profits" in every significant way. Thank you!
The inner milieu and the outer milieu, happiness was born a twin,
Goodness and generosity are the branches of the tree of wisdom.
Very true. Our band had always been about the music and all the money that we made went into a band fund that would pay for things like recording, flyers, tour expenses, etc. until we had enough coming in that we could all make a decent living and still function as a band. We all understood the concept and were fine with that because we were all friends moving toward a common goal.
We began paying our bassist because he was short on cash, and seeming to become less and less involved or motivated with the group. Once we started paying him, he became even less reliable and motivated.
Lesson learned. Keep friends as friends, don't make them employees.
Well, actually, I wish I'd been paid for sex. I'd be retired by now. The users in the world make every social experience become no fun at all. I think these days you need to get PAID and that's the bottom line. Reward allows one to relax and deliver.....knowing they will not be used and abused in the process of providing great work.
Hi Derek, as another cultural perspective, I live in Japan and there is a social institution here called 'Olay' which is a gift given to folks who do things of value without the implications of token remuneration. The 'olay' can be anything from some kinds of otherwise insignificant goods to money. When it is money, it isn't intended to be payment for any service rendered, but rather to cover costs like transportation, gas or whatever. The amount is usually more than the actual costs though. As such, it gives the giver the vehicle to even things out, and it removes the receiver from the socially sticky situation of being poorly compensated for their 'work'.
I bring this up because comments, such as the ones that are listed here, due to the fact that most readers seem to be in North America, tend to be somewhat culturally specific and the very fact that this 'is' the internet should allow for a broader perspective or more qualification when culturally specific comments are made.
That's a lot of people looking for something...
e
Whoa all I can say is 228 comments? What did you do differently?
I worked with a VERY SPECIFIC FILM COMPANY AFTER WORKING WELL WITH A SPECIFIC CD COMPANY AND AFTER PAYING MY FEES (reward) TO THE FILM COMPANY THEY REFUSED TO LIST MY FILMS ONLINE (BECAUSE OF A BENIGN PSYCHOTIC TELEPHONE CONVERSATIION WHICH I THOUGHT NOTHING OF BUT THEY THOUGHT WAS THE END OF THE WORLD). NOW I RECEIVE VERY PROFESSIONAL CONTACTS FROM THE HEAD OF THE COMPANIES WHO SUPPOSEDLY IS NO LONGER THE HEAD AND I SAY WHAT GIVES.
In this world we need both mind sets to survive. In the personal sense the decision must be made as to how those parallels will operate in a beneficial manner. For instance, as a musician I am constantly challenged by the amount to charge for my services. Friends and relatives will always get a better price - perhaps even no charge - but the key is to establish those parallels and never allow them to intersect. (One cannot find success or peace of mind in the crossroads.)
this made sooo much sense...thanks for the post..
Hi Derek,
Great topic.
I would never leave my kid at a day care center longer then he needs to be there. Do you know how exhausted those workers are at the end of the day? Think postal workers on steroids.
Money and Music:
Weeelll, let's just say I do allot of busking out in the "open air market" I have a very broad demographic in these cases, Children to Grandparents all nationalities etc.
~ I have tried allot of different "slogans" on many different occasions.
Sometimes being honest can really be painful. I used to call my tip jar a "foreclosure prevention program" and a "stimulus package" That really worked! Astonishing!
We increased tips and CD sales by 20% on those days- May have been the weather, I do not know for sure.
I couldn't keep it up because my partner and I were really were loosing our house. But we are now on the mend financially.
I tried the nice way too. "Are you folks having a good time?" Usually I already know the answer is because I pay very close attention to the audience and how they are responding- and it can be subtle in some open air venues.So when I ask, usually I get a group "yea!". my response>Thank you for you enthusiasm...Please feel free to take home a CD and practice along with it in the shower and come back and sing along with us.(no mention of money here)
It just brings attention to my merchandise table.
OR
Your donations go a long way and we are very complimented when you purchase a CD, of course we have free stuff up here too, don't be shy.
Sometimes I feel like a carnival barker, but, I increase my CD sales and who in this day and age has time to waste money. Not me.
Recently, I was asked to perform for a "private party" that I have performed before and have I been paid well for. I was asked to perform again for free this time. I said no way. If I am worth performing a second time then come up with the $$. Their clientele requested our music. They can buy our CD and let the DJ spin it if they want to. I do not perform for gigs who ask me to do it for free if they are charging $50-$75. per ticket. Come on! The event promoters are either getting greedy or they mismanaged their party budget.
Dates, Sex, Money...
How exactly do I go about getting paid for sex? I have never figured that out, sounds risky. I have more fun making music for fun and for money anyway.
I am a female and I have paid for a dates meal and movie on more than one occasion. I did not expect sex in return. But it helps me get in touch with my masculinity. arrrg!
Blessing to all of you music makers out there,
Fontain
Very good advice....certainly food for thought.
There is good insight here. Thank you!
Lewis HYDE is the author of The Gift! I'm sorry for the incorrect reference in my previous comment.
interesting delineation. with that said someone asked "what would have been a good move for the day care people?"...seems to me they should have put both feet on the market mind set and charged $3.00/min. for tardiness LOL
to be honest I really never thought about the two mindsets . I am glad i read this post. thanks
Interesting article. I totally get it. I need to keep that in mind.
Peace,
Johnny
I am enjoying your thoughts Derek, and the comments of others. Good psychology behind the marketing..
Music IS social, by its very nature, yet we have to make a living, and show the business world that we ARE the business. Not easy to explain this one!
Interesting point. If I had a dollar for every time I did something for friends or strangers out of kindness…
No good deed goes unpunished, in my experience. May the great Karmic wheel turn…
In the grand scheme of things, is it really appropriate for a professional golfer, for instance, to get paid millions of dollars for trying to hit a little white ball into a small hole when compared to the caregivers and philanthropists who give their time, effort and often their own money, often for no reward whatsoever. The discrepancy is simply too great, the whole world seems out of balance…
I just had to post another comment as I was thinking about this during my lunch walk. A previous employeer of mine got caught in this I now relize when a scheme was introduced to get people to work overtime but not claim payed overtime. The reasoning was, "if we work more now when it is easy to sell our service we become stronger for harder times", completely correct but it put everyone in market mode thinking "what's in it for me" and the answer was "monetary now, nothing but you help creating a stronger company". To me they tried to get people to agree to a market type scheme by appealing to their social side. It wasn't as easy to sell it like that I can tell you. It was almost as asking your neighbour help you with the sofa and then say, "by the way could you help me everyday with a few sofas so that I can make a lot of money? Pay you? No I can't do that because then I make less money, come on be a pal!"
two things.
i have been giving my music away for a long time now, and no matter how much of it give away for free, i keep making money.
you know how many CDs i would have to sell to make the money you get from 15 seconds of one song in one film? i'll keep giving away CDs and free downloads thanks!
second. about this day care center. stop worrying about it. it's closed. all the kids grew up and moved away. i don't even think it was a real day care center, just one of those day care centers they slap up over night for use in analogies.
An excellent article, Derek. I try to be a mensch, but I have also had to learn the discipline of not giving away our work because I think a cause or a person is deserving.
The daycare centers that are in my neigborhood charges $1 per minute. So the tardiness decreased significantly. Also, I struggled with the market & social mindset recently when I sent out an announcement for a wonderful new product that's helping people to lose weight, called the "Body Magic". I added my I.D. No. in the script so that it would be handy when it came to them signing up - one less email to me for info. But after reading your article, it may have been a turn off.
Word of mouth is the best way
to spread the word about your music!so,tell someone today!
In fact tell everyone you meet!!!
Chuck D.
It's about error acceptance, 5 to 10% of the people will be late, we can handle that. 20 to 30%, no way. Solution, charge the 3 dollar penalty to cover expenses or shut out the lights lock the doors and leave the kids outside.
Greetings: Mr. Sivers.
Social Mindset, Market Mindset.
A very good topic.
Say what you mean and mean what you
say. Peace.
It's very difficult to do as an artist. My particular problem is always being invited somewhere hoping I'll perform fro free. I always ask expenses even if its a longtime friend. It could mean turning down another date, taking time from another duty or affair which might lead to a gig, the expenses of going out the door to a gig, etc.
The expenses are nominal but necessary, and then when you do go, everything has to be in place - soundman, right mikes, lights, monitors, backline - even a band!
Well I certainly fit the criteria of giving for the greater good expecting nothing back. I really feel a smile & / or a Thank You
is reward enough. Just knowing you've helped make the world a better place by Practicing What You preach........
Thanks Derek for a Venue to Post !
Well, that's creepy. My husband/bandmate and I were just having a similar conversation 30 seconds before I sat down and randomly read this. What fascinating insight.
Thanks Derek good information. Keep it coming.
Thanks Derek - you are doing SO much good for so many people! You set a beautiful example with the simple persistence you show in continually producing and sharing helpful material. Thank you, Thank you!
Talk about hitting the nail on the head!
So often our "modern" society tells us the secret to success lies in our ability to "network". It's sad but we seem to have become so caught up in this process that we forget to just be good friends and neighbors.
So glad you gave us this little reminder Derek. I've been blessed with true friends and of course I've encountered many "not so true" ones too. The difference is staggering bt I think the lesson here is to be mindful that you don't become part of the latter group.
Blessings
Thanks Derek,
This is excellent information. You've got a great heart man.
Steve Bruce
Hummm.. I'm never insulted if a friend offers me money to help them..I feel it is their way of giving me something. I'm honored they care enough to ask if I'll take money..
I help them, and sometimes take the money, sometimes not..But I don't get the insulted thing..Why on Earth be insulted?
If someone offers you money to help them they might be desparate, in which case it is ok.
But if someone offers you money to help them simply because they judge you to be motivated by money alone, it's not ok.
I love your common sense approach. I'm an infant in the blogosphere but I think we think alike. Check it out at www.hirekevinbrown.com. I'd love to know your thoughts.
Thanks...I'll keep reading.
By the way, the Israeli Day Care case study from Freakonomics is one of my favorites....I used it all the time with Clients about the power, and danger of, negative incentive. Good stuff.
I agree Derek. But then again, in my career I've also found that professional musicians who are payed, credited, and treated well, put more into a sesion than if they are asked to show up in thier spare time as a favor.
If they are working in thier "career mindset" and they take their careers and relationships with collegues seriously, I find most do a great job for me.
Thanks for the food-for-thought, Derek.
Robin
Derek, I believe I understand the moral you're sharing.
Many of us invest countless energy lovingly promoting each other and contributing to projects in various ways -- without payment. It is our way and we love it.
However, every time I've received $10, $20 a quarter through affiliate codes (via CDBaby partner links or some random hosting company I may endorse) it feels great to know I helped sell some CDs for someone or help get another musician online.
Usually, the day I receive a check, it's my turn to buy a round of drinks after a show for the band.
You know I love you, but affiliate codes are a 'little something' that helps us all in the smallest of ways.
peace-
seanrox
Strikes deep, Derek! So, if you write inspirational, Christian music do you sell it or do you offer it free in hopes that (1) you will spread the message and (2) the listener might come back for more? Again, I ask, what is the end-goal?
I tried this with my first CD I put out in the market. I gave free CD's to some of my special friends who have stuck by me for years and relatives (most of my relatives would not take the free CD, but wanted to pay for it...opposite response!!!) I said and did nothing else in regards to them. Some played the CD's in their business which drew sales from their customers, my relatives were just proud to have someone in the family with a CD out and shared it with their friends which drew even more sales. No gimmicks...Just handed out a few free cds with no strings attached and expected nothing in return. Good things happen when you just let things run their natural course and not try to force it.
Thanks, as always, Derek. Great insights, and keep them coming!
Really interesting. Actually, absolutely fantastic.
One thing I think you didn't explicitly say that is important to this idea is when people make an offer to give you something for free how it changes your thinking. After they've offered something, if you turn them down it's you not getting something, instead of you letting them down. You not getting something isn't nearly as bad as letting someone down. If you don't get something, nothing changes. Everything stays the same as it was. If you let someone down it could really hurt your relationship.
Just wanted to add that.
Thanks Derek!
-Andrew
So does this mean, I shouldn't be giving away free songs to everyone who joins the mailing list?
Have I been doing it wrong all this time?
Loved this. A lot of food for thought. Thanks Derek!
If you love what you do, the money will come. It’s all about passion!
The more you give the more you receive…I believe in that philosophy!
Derek…you have done it again!
The scenarios you presented rang very true. I've been in similar situations and reacted in much the same way you described.
Derek, Nice article. The best things in life are free, but some people dont appreciate what they dont pay for. But for me, i will say give, give and give, and dont bother what the nonchalant ones do with what they get for free. what goes around comes around.
Great article Derek and underscores that a 'giving mindset' is the one to cultivate. I always liked that proverb, 'cast your bread upon the waters and it will return to you'.
I think in general this is the best way to go, but as always there are probably a few exceptions here and there. Something along the same lines is mentioning that you have CD's for sale while on stage. I've found myself getting turned off when in the middle of a great show a band starts to plug their 2 for one sale. After my own reaction I decided to never do it again. I think it's ok to mention up coming shows and things like that, but keep the sales pitches out of the show. That of course is just my humble opinion.
All good stuff to think about and consider as always.
thankyou Derek you are a ray of sunshine!! x
Hiya
)
You sure don't need any additional comments, but here's mine anyway (with no expectation of reward
Great article. I've already sent it along to several folks. And sadly, in my experience the people who have learned to live a 'market mindset' aren't likely to comprehend your premise, much less adopt it! And that's their issue.
I love it that there are many like me out there who align success with being helpful and leave $s out of the equation.
Thanks
Gwen McCauley
That's why I have the creative wemixseries.com forum affiliated to my deejayfriendly.com music store! Because on the forum the members can have all the music for free and can invite their friends to interact and relate first, then when they want to support it they can go on the store. It works great and feels good