How would microcredit work for musicians?
2008-04-20
How would microcredit work for musicians?
Just asking that question of myself and the world at the same time. Please add your thoughts in the comments, here, and I'll post a 2nd post about this soon.
Please see...
- the Wikipedia page about microcredit
- microplace.com - on the SEC, backed by eBay
- prosper.com - P2P loans of all types
- kiva.org - which gives no return, just appeals to charitable intentions
- sellaband.com - the only similar idea I've seen for music (but read this outside summary of sellaband, too)
Right now we have a few sites that offer something like microcredit to bands that can win those inane online popularity contests. The deals look like crippled versions of what major labels can offer. But we're figuring out the basics.
Prosper's gorgeousness lies in the fact that it doesn't really attempt to dictate the terms too hard- it provides a working model and then people fill that model up based on what they want to put in it. People do their own filtering and set their own terms. Of course, the value of a service like Prosper is instantly obvious, and people feel less certain about placing a value on their music.
Problem seems to be that without a loyal fanbase, any microcredit process has to have a way to get people to hear (and buy into) you. And as soon as you attempt to launch yet another channel in this world of a zillion channels, you're competing against a ton of (mostly free) noise.
But you could do something in a local community, and indeed people do put together musician's coops for this sort of thing.
Dear Derek;
just a few thoughts:
Lets says an artist has so many loyal fans, that 3000 fans would lend him $ 10 each. I think that artist must have a flourishing business already.
Would he then need the loan? Couldn't he pay his expenses from his income?
Many of the microcredit models are designed for people in need ( 3rd world, paying of debt etc. ) A good thing. But are musicians in need? Are musicians still liking this idea?
If someone needs micro credit to finance his new album, do I trust him to be so much of an entrepreneur that he is able to market and sell his music successfully?
I like the way you started cd baby, as you said "..like a hot dog stand.."
Elizabeth and I decided ten years ago that we would only work with a positive money balance. It keeps you motivated and always shows you where you really are with your business.
... and Elizabeth just said to me:" I think microcredit is good for the 3rd world or parts of the world where people have no chance to earn any money.
But musicians in the west can make money. So why would they need microcredit?
I think that is poison for musicians."
One key to the success of micro credit is the community pressure to pay each loan back before the next community member can borrow. So in that case, I think musician microcredit would have to be local, or in some way confined to small groups in order to keep defaults lower. Peer pressure to pay back the loan appears to be one of the key factors in microcredit success.
However, an issue with "western" microcredit is that items of economic impact here are more expensive, so microcredit is less applicable. Giving a peasant $100 of bamboo and twine to get them out from under the thumb of their supplier and started as their own entrepreneur makes enormous economic impact... but giving a musician $2K for a PA, $25K for a van, or $10K for studio time and CD manufacturing... is far riskier, and doesn't fit the microcredit model at all... since the loan is so much larger.
Prosper is brilliant for enabling individuals to loan money and become bankers charging a percentage based on risk. BUT... It's not really a microcredit model either. The loans obtained are generally still much larger than a true microcredit model.
I'd never heard of SellaBand... but it sure looks like you could borrow the idea and modify CD Baby to enable "believers" to sell CDs of their favorite artists. Does that feel right or is there a BurnLounge-like queasiness about that? If a "believer" donates $10 to an artist they gain the right to sell the artist's CDs from their page and make $2 per sale. It's like a reverse affiliate program.
Is there something unsettling about that? Am I missing some obvious glaring ethical or moral issue? It give people taste maker impact which is good, but does the $2 ruin it?
I think microcredit is an important idea for underdeveloped nations where people can drastically change their situations with small amounts of money. In more developed nations (US, Europe, etc...) people have the opportunity to take a "small job" to raise a little bit of money without too much effort. Those opportunities generally do not exist in countries where microcredit is being explored.
I'm not sure how much a tiny loan (under $3k) would change a musician's situation. I think there are probably some instances where a musician could get an album printed more quickly, but in most situations I've seen, that does not equate overnight (or even close) fame and success. I see a lot more teen bands making bad albums and never paying people back under a microcredit system in the music world. As an important part of the overall equation, I'd be interested to know how many indie bands and musicians sell all (or even a majority) of their 1,000 CD's (typical first pressing) in the first year of printing.
We've been toying with the idea of "pre-sale" for generating revenue for an upcoming indie film project. Instead of "borrowing" $10 from a lot of people, we'll be selling copies of a DVD that doesn't exist yet (sort of the same thing). People who know our capabilities will be buying a product sight unseen with the faith and confidence that they will be receiving a quality product once the project is completed.
Since the idea of making an indie-film (or album) isn't necessarily "making money" until distribution comes around, this seems like a good way to generate some revenue to complete the project in the first place. And it seems like something a little more solid than "borrowing," as people are buying a product instead of loaning money.
I guess that's SORT OF the same idea as a microcredit system, but with something a little more solid to back it up.
Those are some great responses above.
I think the sticking point with microcredit (or any kind of credit) is that for there to be a return, there should be some reasonable growth. A lot of bands and artists don't know or understand how to plan for growth or how to take their product to market. (I think this is why Sellaband dictates some terms about where the money will be spent, how it will be marketed, etc.)
Funding CDs, tours, etc. might be better served by a patronage model, where it's more about goodwill and exclusive premiums. I held a fund raiser last year for my latest CD project, and while it was IMO a huge success, I'd be in extremely deep trouble if those contributions were actually loans.
As some of the posters pointed out above, I think microcredit in literal sense may not apply to start-up musicians in the so-called "developed" societies.
However, I do wonder if some kind of financing system can be set up to help fund micro/"propreneur" businesses. I don't know if such a venture is a viable investment option -- probably not in strictly financial sense, but perhaps artists or art-oriented successful people may be inclined to "give back" to the artist community by incubating promising start-ups.
I haven't done the research yet, but are there financing structures available for starting a restaurant? Or a book store? I know that owning a music "business" isn't anywhere near established/conventional as something like your own plumbing business. But I'm sure there are people who are employed elsewhere who dream of owning their own businesses one day. I think music business can be considered among the same level, had we had enough precedents of musicians establishing a viable business on their own.
Instead of calling it a microcredit, what if there was such a music business incubation program? To be considered, applicants must submit their music AND a business plan. And appropriate investments (not loans) are made if applicant is matched with investors who believe in applicant's material and vision.
Loaning money to musicians ?????
ARE YOU CRAZY !!!!!!!!!
ARE YOU NUTS ????
ARE YOU A FEW BANNANAS SHORT OF A BUNCH ?!?!?!?
LOL
Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.
Seriously, I think that Ari has the most logical idea. The musician needs to submit a business plan to show where that money is going to go and how the loan will be re-paid.
I remember Jody Whitesides was trying to find investors a while back and had a business plan put together to help advance his career.
Looking at Sell a Band as a model, I know that I would record my CD for a lot less, but put more of that money into marketing and promotion.
Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way.
Microcredit in its current, developing-country application, resolves the most pressing local scarcity- money. But, as a society, we're awash with the stuff (somehow always needing more, of course) and so maybe microcredit doesn't help.
Maybe the best way we can support musicians is to lend them our ears. =) everything else seems to flow if you just have enough of that going on...
Sellaband brings to mind the Texas Campfire Tapes. Recorded analog on a Sony Walkman, I believe.
There's a mindset that the money is in touring and selling merch, since so many have grown to expect recorded music to be free. I can't imagine that model is going to be supportable when gas is expected to hit $4/gallon. There's a band bus (old schoolbus) parked across the street right now, and when it pulled up all I could think was, "I guess they have to leave it running to use the lights. Wonder what kind of mileage that thing gets?" These guys are playing a house concert, in an 800 sq ft house. 10 people might fit in one room. I hope they sell many CDs at their show.
I can see where Sellaband would get listeners invested, literally, in the success of the CD, giving them the 15 minutes. They still have to find people who will pay for the music. Most can't hear the difference between mp3 and uncompressed hi-fi. Restaurants do not offer free food and better, paid food. Licensed plumbers do not offer free plumbing and better quality plumbing. Can't walk into an art gallery, take a painting and walk out for free - artist and gallery starve.
The pre-sales model reminds me of early Hollywood, and many who lost all their money on movies that were never finished - or never really in production. Again, chicken-egg. Pre-sales may work for those with a fan base who value music enough to pay for it, when gas is $4/gallon and it's hard for bands to tour. With the price of everything going up, how does music compete?
Great conversation. Interesting stuff to think about. With each of my albums, I do the presale thing, which helps more with momentum than
anything. It certainly doesn't raise enough cash to make the album, but it is a great start, and I have a lot of people asking me "soon?" That is a good motivator for me, because they WANT to hear more.
Major major issues with Sellaband. Basically, they hijack your publishing for songs recorded during the term of the contract. This is essentially what the catch is. They're tricking your core fans into paying for high quality recordings of songs that Sellaband now administer and co-owns. With CD sales basically non existent for the time being and certainly staying that way for the future: publishing is one of the last true assets a band can have. Major labels and fans don't care about HIGH quality recordings, they want great songs and great music. The only thing Sellaband really does is use uninformed music lovers to finance great sounding "pitch" ready recordings that the company has unfairly acquired interest in. There's no real money in the masters(which you DONT even own for a YEAR) so they'll be taking your music from you.
I'd stay far far far away from them.
Skylar.
Couple issues with microcredit as well,
the return for investors is horrible.
Major labels and publishing are used to making a 100% return on their money + anywhere from 50-85% interest in perpetuity. I can't see why on earth any investor would ever put money into these microcredit things. If its helping people in undeveloped country, than the embarrassing return on investment is qualified by charitable goodwill, but for bands.... thats just insane.
I asked my tax advisor if he has clients who wanna invest risk-capital into a record-label. it would be a win - win situation for both I explained. they save taxes because I loose money for some years and if it works out fine they make money out of the business. they never loose.
answer: no way, not MUSIK.
why?
answer: some of his customers (medical doctors, ...) invest into movies. they know that they will loose money, but at the premiere show they are part of a glamorous world. their wifes can dress up and get some little Hollywood kick.
music has no glam-factor. its the opposite. drugs, insanity, weirdo life-style, ...
at the end he said: make a movie and I can provide enough money.
thats a kind of reality.
Wolfgang - Austria
http://cdbaby.com/group/base
I am a professional musician in New York City and I 've been here since 1984.
I read all of your posts and these are interesting ideas, however, I don't see any possible way I could ever pay back, for example, $10,000. The only CD run I've every printed is 100 CDs and most of those were given away as promotion. The second CD run of 100 is now sitting in my living room in a box. I've sold a paltry 32 CDs (on CD Baby) since 2004. I find it difficult to get people to come out to my gigs.
As a sideman playing with other groups it's easier to get gigs where there are decent sized audiences. Some Concerts, a Tour here and there. But under my own name, 5 or 6 people in the audience doesn't make it, and I have to pay the band out of my own pocket. (I play Jazz, Cuban, Brazilian, Funk, Blues, etc.)
Plus I have a 2-year old son.
So, I don't think the micro-credit model works for me.
Interesting idea though!
www.bloomworks.com
Reading about microcredit and then reading the responses that were given. Showed me that although the responses were quite intelligent, I don't believe any of those individuals have ever been in the "boat" before. Personal experience in what I now know was microcredit didn't work for me. The added pressure by those who invested in your dream, cause a serious problem to the musician. Personally may years ago I had borrowed a sustantial amount of money for new equipment from a good friend. Of course terms of repayment were included, but there was no interest added. The band sound better, are bookings increased and of course we earned more money. However, everytime that individual came to the club to see us, it was a reminder. And the creativity began to suffer because my mindset was that of debt rather then performing and playing to my ability. Eventually the loan was payed back, the friendship was never the same. This may or may not be the same as microcredit, but that's how I see it. The sellaband idea, will more then likely make ebay substanial money because of the egos of so many young bands wanting to make it "big", and truly believe this is the avenue to persue. There are no short cuts in the entertainment business. Being discovered still exists today and probably will always be there for the "up and coming artist". But the number of those becoming stars, vs the number that have tried. Will always be the same, Low. One of the responses was in fact on the money. Record sales, cd's an alike are at a all time low. cdbaby has the right idea for those artists that are trying to make it in the big world of ours. I for one, who by some standards would say why isn't he retired? I learned a long time ago from my father who was a very successful parent, and musician. We must give back for what we've taken from the industry. I've planned to produce a few albums and will do so within my own small studio and whatever happens, happens. But my local fans, and some new fans will appreciate what's been done. And I won't owe anyone but God for giving me the very talent I used throughout my lifetime.
日本語でサポートして欲しいです…
Derek,
Thanks for the articles. Wondering; my new CD has me as sole songwriter. I perform as well as co-produce.
My co-producer plays bass and does most of the drum programming. How do I come up with a sensible contract between us?
bob comtois
I think that link swapping is a great idea because your website will get more hits and attention from the public. this should get your music more attention....Want to link switch with me?
www.highrockswapshop.us
www.CDbaby.com/marienorway
I had a trio and we had a year's worth of work and I got a credit card from American Express, who offered to extend credit to my "employees." So I offered it to Junior, the multi-instrumentalist, who said "No, I don't need it, and don't offer it to P.....; he'll use it to buy Pampers and food and stuff." But I did, and P..... bought $500 worth of Pampers and potato chips and took his kids out to Chucky Cheese three nights a week and I ended up with a $3500 bill I could not pay and when I "garnished" P....'s wages he cursed me. And this was a guy with great skills and a high IQ. Ruined my credit for years.
i recently had nadeau music buy 5 0f my cds in order to sell them on their site---i like that concept--if i could get a bunch of them to buy to sell--that would be cool with me--not sure what to do---i frequent a bunch of indie sites--many of my sales come from them--or at my gigs--its all good i guess
I think it is an interesting concept. Micro credit may help out musicians that are ready to seriously go after their craft. The main issue is whether or not it is going to help or hurt them. Some of them may take a loan before they are ready to take it. One would need a couple of albums done and some grass roots support to generate enough income to sustain even a small loan. What we did for ourselves is opened a business account, then we went and applied for a business credit card. It is sort of the same thing. Thanks to CD Baby and our digital distribution we are able to sustain our credit and other small expenses. These days we have to get creative to make it happen.
As far as Sell a band, it reminds me of a few other sites. I dont like it becuase we are a hip hop label. I am one of the producers as well. We do not need 30,000 dollars for production, we need that for promotion. Bands that play a lot of live instruments may need that, but we don't. What I don't like about Sell a band is that everything is mandated but they say you are free to create like you want. Not to mention they get your master for a year, then your licensing for a year..so basically you get 60% sales and told where to put 50,000 dollars that you have earned. People that do this may be unaware at how much they have given up.
These are all interesting ideas and I like the forum. The only way to find a solution is to talk and brainstorm, good idea Derek.
When I read this article, it brought tears to my eyes. What a wonderful gift this will be. Microcredit to me means hope. Hope for those who just has a passion to do what God put in their heart and soul to do. Microcredit will allow us to just focus on what is realy important. It will give us the opportuity to minister to the world in a stress free environment. Why, most of our worries, set backs, and hold ups, are based on a financial lack. I am blessed with a God given gift of expression. I have a passion, such a passion, to bring forth the stuggles of life, as we live day by day through songs, poetry and book writing. This can heal people souls. People need to know that there is hope. I only dream of having my own label, not to make money, money, money, but to give people the opportunity to just love life. If the world was a powerful song, people will be much happier, and better equiped to handle life downfalls. Life is a process that we must go through. Microcredit will help us make it through. Microcredit can give us that stability that we need to succeed. If you are out there somewhere and is able to provide this gift for people like me, than do just that. If God has set this in your heart, giving you the opportunity to change the world for the better, you should know that this is the right thing to do. The sure thought of microcredit has alresdy blessed me. I thank you. Please remember,living life should not have to always be about money.
I think micro-credit for musicians would have to be for a specific purpose with a chance of receiving a return on the money, either through music or some other form of income. For example, it a musician received an order for 5,000 copies of their CD from a major retailer, but didn't have the money to deliver the goods, then a micro-loan might work better than other types of financing if the terms were favourable.
The lender could attach the value of the contract with the retailer as security against the loan (or something like that...)
Another thing that a micro-loan could work for is if a musician has an 'opportunity of a lifetime' to audition for a big time show or to appear on a televised event... but they need the money to get there and have a place to stay for a few days... and the musician has some type of asset that has enough equity to cover the loan (a car or other item of value...), then a micro-loan could be like a safety net to help people move to the next step in their career. (This could even be gas and food money to auditon for Idol or some other show...)
Lastly, a micro-line of credit could help struggling musicians on the road. Let's say, you barely made it to the venue, have no gas and no money and you expected to be paid in cash... but that didn't happen. Your micro-line of credit could supply you with just enough to get to the next gig and eat something...
This could be helpful, but would require some deep thought to be both profitable and truly useful. Generally, if the musician can prove that they're are involved in some event that may help them advance their career and that there is some type of plan for repayment, then yes, a micro-loan system for musicians could be very helpful. I think that basic and easy to follow help on managing finances wouldn't hurt either.
At first I thought you wrote "micro edit" and I thought, hmmm, interesting.
As for "microcredit", check out the Street Performer Protocol and the Rational Street Performer Protocol variant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_Performer_Protocol
http://www.schneier.com/paper-street-performer.html
http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/rspp
--Joe
Two tears in a bucket ..oops Hmm Hmm hello keyword "micro" think BIG I'm staying with CDerekBaby!!!
Thank you for sending me this.
The music buisness
You are a band
You record your music
You present the music to the public
They like it enough to buy it or they don't
Recording the music is not too difficult and the cost can be reasonable
Presenting the music to the public can be very difficult and the cost can be enormous. The problem for every unknown band is becoming known. That is where help is needed. Ideas such as sellaband are just part of the non-professional music business that lives off the millions of hopefuls and wannabes. The key thing is finding a way to present the band/music to the public.
The microcredit seems to assume that "If I only had a bit more money, I could change my fortune in this business." That if we were each handed a nest egg, it would magically turn into success.
But I think when an artist struggles, money is not the issue. Because an artist who knows how to earn and use his/her money will know how to get it without a loan. (Or, will at least know when a loan is a good idea.) But giving money to an artist who doesn't know how to earn or get more is a big mistake. Even if they are a GOOD artist.
I agree that a prospective borrower would need to present a good business plan. But how much would make it worthwhile? $3000? It would be better for your band to go work at Taco Bell for a month.
Honestly, I would prefer that artists should have to scrap for their money rather than being given it. It's a nice filtering process. My 2 cents.
Thanks! Chad
All this talk but no discussion on the terms of these micro-credit loans....i can't imagine them being favorable...It's like those people who buy stock with a credit card thinking they'll make money. JM
Sellaband has been good for us. Sure, like every new David vs Golioth business plan it is still learning to aim in the right direction. But given a chance, success will be mighty.......
How about the site for ARTISTS SHARE ? Very interesting, having ideas to promote for fans to become involved on many levels of production, writing, learning and connecting closer to the artist, and all for contributing to your next project. A lot of work ....
Of coarse I would rather just write record and perform which is plenty, and have someone else take care of everything but biness is biness!
With regard to sellaband I liked what Charie Cheyney said. He said and I quote:
'it sure looks like you could borrow the idea and modify CD Baby to enable “believers” to sell CDs of their favorite artists. ........ If a “believer” donates $10 to an artist they gain the right to sell the artist’s CDs from their page and make $2 per sale. It’s like a reverse affiliate program.'
It might work with the clout of Cdbaby ....otherwise how long is it going to take to get 5,000 believers? And what if you don't get that amount of believers?
I also think that $50 000 is too much for a tester album $10 000 is more realistic max.
Claire
....And also if the sellaband idea were backed by CDbby and sold by pointing out that the money invested is only the cost of the CD that they will get free later plus they would get $2 seller rights it might be a winner. I would pay $10 to hear music I liked if i were going to get the disk later....that's like selective producing ......like the dog wagging the tail instead of vice versa.
microcredit was an unfamiliar term to me until this moment.
i read the passage about it from the link provided from you.
microcredit relates to something i learned at musicians institute- development deals
give an artist 10,000 to come back with a 3 song product, and if the provider of the $10,000 likes what they hear, that can turn microcredit into megacredit.
if the provider of the $10,000 dosn't like what they hear, the artist can take their project else where. the only problem is the provider of the $10,000 is out of $10,000 if they don't feel the music is profitable.
there is an up side to that= the provider of the $10,000 must see something in that artist to want to consider giving the artist a $10,000 check.
if i was in the position to give an artist $10,000 for this type of arrangement based in the hip hop genre- i would tell the artist to bring me back a great project that i could market on the radio or they would not be able to walk to any other label unless my was paid back.
to sum everything up, microcredit can launch a career.
for me i would
1. purchase instrumentals (im a hip hop artist)
2. book studio time(i write in a comfort zone, before going into the studio)
3. pay for mixing
4. pay for mastering
5. pay for packaging
6. present receipts
7. repay unused portion
8. then prepare for the worst, and hope for the best
It sounds like a great idea but to be fair to both sides, the musician would need to submit a business plan and both sides should know what the money is for. It doesn't work in my head because most musicians don't have money skills. It would be better for someone to offer them money management courses for free. That way they would have this ability to keep money for life.
I run Big Band for kids called KINDERJAZZ and it's hugely expensive and CRAZY!
oh a mikrocredit that works is sending a brass instrument,e-piano-guitar etc an instrument you can't build yourself to a 3rd world country.someone will play it and love it so much that it sounds asskiking and the music released to the world will be largely worth the investement.(send 20 intruments to anybody and wait 10 years...)you will have more than one musician on the big stages after...(yes i believe that!)
i met so many good guitarplayes and bassplayers in africa who dont own an instrument,who just paly when a guitarplayer passes buy...
marco from manana me chanto
look for the video african sound mobile...
Hmmm...I'm skeptical of this so-called "microcredit," myself. The way I see it, credit is debt, and debt is the surrender of one's autonomy and freedom to another. While some poor people (and what "poor" is hasn't yet been defined. Today, in America, "poor" means living in middle class housing that was built in the fifties or sixties and not having enough money each month for digital cable) may have succeeded in getting out of poverty via their self-employment, financed by microloans, how many have not done so and remain, not only impoverished, but now indebted, as well?
I strongly disagree with
vocal performance is not just perfect but head-turning, striking.
Perfect is boring. I look for energy in performance (and in writing)--Woody Guthrie wasn't a "perfect" performance but he was (and is) far more interesting to listen to that all these perfectly-tuned performances and recordings today. Maybe that's why Jac Holzman liked Jim Morrison.
I think I fall on the side that says microcredit is for countries where there is no "macro" credit available. There aren't a lot of companies offering credit cards to musicians, but frankly, if you have even a part-time side job, eventually someone is going to get your name somewhere and offer you a card with a $300 line of credit, and if you use it a few times and pay it off, they will then increase your credit line. It's pretty simple to get credit in this country.
The things in short supply here, especially in the music business, are a little more intangible, things like radio promotion, retail distribution, things that get you in the ears and eyes of more people.
These are the things that traditional record labels always handled in the past, and what keeps a lot of independent bands from really breaking out.
Frankly, having our tunes on iTunes via CDBaby is one of the best things for us, combined with what little radio and podcast promotion we could afford to do. Developing tools that make it easier to do the same "grunt work" that major labels always did for artists - creating retail presence, promoting songs to radio (the only real way to get significant airplay), identifying partnerships with booking agents that can help get the band to various parts of the country where the radio play exists. There are various databases of information, but for the most part they are not well-maintained and not worth anything near what a good radio promoter's rolodex is worth.
So the "microcredit" that indie bands need is more like having a team of people to make "grunt" calls to radio stations and other ancillary promotional work.
We tried this to a certain extent by reaching out over the internet to find people who wanted to do part-time work on a "piecework" basis to help us collect information about radio and venues in specific markets. The missing element was having some sort of online collaboration tools that made it easy to do.
Selling CDs isn't that expensive if you can coordinate radio airplay, targeted reviews online and in print, and tour dates. It's just a lot of logistical work, and no amount of money can solve that.
I've seen sellaband and some other models, but my impression is the same as some others -- gosh, if I could find enough people to raise 50,000 dollars why do I need them? I don't see them indicating that they are doing any of the things I just mentioned, they're talking about spending 30 grand in studio time and nearly 6,000 manufacturing discs, but I don't see anything about promotion or radio support or anything.
It seems to me that what's more needed is:
1) a way to do very short runs of discs economically and have them drop-shipped direct to retailers or customers;
2) a way to set up something like a Multi-Level Marketing (or at least a tiered commission rate based upon volume) system to increase cashflow;
3) a way to create distributed networks of promoters who know their local press and radio market who share information under some umbrella and coordinate promotion for indies;
The big sticking point for bands today is not credit or lack of cash. It's a lack of intangible resources and economies of scale.
Low-cost "just in time" production of high-quality discs -- the Kinko's of CD replication -- would go a long way toward making it easier to make money on discs, since it would eliminate the need for a huge investment up front. Small-studio / home studio recordings in the digital world can compete pretty well, and even pro studios are 1/10th as expensive as they were years ago.
So, I guess what I'm saying is, money isn't in short supply per se, it's support networks that are in short supply, and they can't be bought with any amount of money right now, they only exist for major artists.
I'm experimenting as I said with trying to set up ways of at least having some of the information gathered by distributed workers, but it would be easier if there were just a "matchmaker" service to put people who want to do this kind of work together with bands who need it done, with some web-based control systems that allow people to work at home when they have the time to work.
(I've got a friend helping me design something that we might be able to build to try to beta test this concept, but it's going to be a little while).
I guess I'd call this concept "micro-promotion" or "distributed promotion" and I think it's one way to move things from a local level to a regional or perhaps national level.
It's late and maybe I'm not making any sense to anyone but myself, but I guess I'm saying I've always found a way to generate money if I need it, but I haven't always been able to spend it in a way that generates the results I would like, and that is more the problem. Perhaps money itself is more of a problem for others, but it seems to me that time and strategic planning are the things that seem to be in short supply, and if you have enough time and planning, it's not that hard to make money.
At DFEStudio we are considering a issuing a line of credit in the amount of $5000 for Studio Time, & Engineering in our studio (No Credit Check), payments around $100 a month. I have seen "Spec Deals" by Studios in the past that leave the musicians "holding the bag" when the showcase doesn't suceed. (To the tune of 40,000) Since the band broke up afterward only the members signing the agreement were on the hook. So we are looking at requiring member agreements within the band and loan agreements that could require each member to share in the debt, unless of course other arrangements are made.
Being a "poor boy musician" myself, I know where you are all coming from and would like to do something the help bands the normally would not be able to come into a studio and get a quality recording. I know this is not a large amount but with a proven payment history another block could be issued.
Give us your thoughts
Richard Norman
Distant Future Entertainment ASCAP
DFE Studio
Nashville/Hendersonville TN
www.distantfuturemusic.com
Hey Neighbor,
I've worked hard and come a long way. There is no doubt I could have been a lot further by now if I had the money to promote and market my product cd "The Lottery Truck". Check it out at http://www.lamarharris.com
I am now scheduled to film for tv, internet tv and radio on May 28th because of my song on the cd called "The Man". It will be played on over 3000 church networks world wide so I am hopeful that this is going to give me the exposure I so desperately need.
A very important lady in the Gospel industry was asked to listen to "The Man" by a friend of mine and she immediately called me and scheduled this event.
So it is definitely all about promoting/exposure.
I have applied for these micro loans but have never succeeded in getting one. I would certainly accept it.
Who knows, maybe the good Lord is watching over me.
I do believe my songs have been blessed and that eventually I will see success.
I thank you for trying to help others the way you do.
CDBABY has been good for me...and the best is yet to come!
Lamar Harris
http://www.lamarharris.com
http://www.cdbaby.com/harrislamar
Let me be short on this ... the principal idea of Sellaband is very nice . But the Sellaband staff turned it into a pile of shit and greed . At the moment a lot of Believers and Artists are turning their back on Sellaband . For the Believers it's getting clear that their chances of any return of investment are about zero , and the Artists know by now that for 40% of their publishing rights the Sellaband staff will do absolutely nothing .
Besides that ; I never got the CD's I paid for delivered at home . So let's hope Sellafraude.com will be soon out of busseniss .
Have FUN !!! yours Pieps
If I may quote Patti Smith, regarding pathetic wining about not having enough dough "Get a job, and if you still don't have enough, get 2 jobs"
Here's a new and interesting concept via Kristin -- CASHmusic go to www.throwingmuses.com and see what's going on with this business model, I am producing an album presently and I loath DEBT, I recommend people just get started, put a little bit aside every month and keep recording in a consistent fashion. You will make mistakes, speaking from experience and have to re-record, which sucks, but you get better at this as you go along. I think the old theater cliche still holds true, never risk your own money -- yet this process is building up your creative investment. You will have something tangible that (if you're any good) will be a satisfying and useful representation of your work. Do what you can do, and don't delay.--Sheryl Diane
Derek, (I forgot to include my sebsite)
Thanks for all your help. I really prreciate your being
there. It's a good thing!
My website is stoneyferguson.com and I want to take
advantage of your services to make my music available
to more people.
I want you to know I had a good talk with a lady from your office. Your people are very knowledgable, helpful and kind, but insist I go through all the steps, which I do
understand. And I'm a computer guy, but i struggle with
the internet setup thing anywhere I go.
I'm just more confident talking on the phone to real
people and it's just a lot of information to wade through, but I am getting through the set up process...At the same time revamping my old CD.
I know it will be great man!
Thanks
Where would the line be drawn to denote the difference between "Micro" and "Macro" credit? If an artist is starting out and wants to purchase an instrument (reasonably priced), I think this would fall into the Micro category. If an artist wants to outfit an entire band with high quality equipment it could very well fall into the Macro category.
A few questions:
What terms (realistic percentage) and conditions would apply?
Does the investor keep all rights until the loan is repaid?
In the event that the product is garbage what remedies would the Microcredit lender have?
In the event of default, at what point is the loan written off as a Grant?
To entice lenders to consider loaning money to Artists (especially painters and musicians who have reputations for not being very responsible) would the loans be underwriten by the National Endowment for the Arts much like HUD used to underwrite housing?
Are the Artists issued 1099s for $50,0000.00 at the end of the tax year?
Are the Artists issued 1099s for accrued investment deposits (plus interest)?
Lenders are in business to make money (even in Third World countries). If an artist needs equipment, several retail sites like Musicians Friend, etc. offer credit with reasonable payment plans, but beware, it is still credit and can be very costly if not repaid on time, just like any credit card.
As for Sellaband, I tried to open their Terms and Conditions pages but they would not load so I will take your word on the contents. It seems that by holding the investments by fans, retaining the masters and licensing rights for a year they are double dipping the artist's money trough, especially if the material is highly marketable. (not a bad arrangement for not doing the creative work).
$50,000.00 seems a rather high (unrealistic?) goal for bands that would need microcredit. They do not seem to address those with a prerecorded product. Not very realistic in terms of their costs either. Does anyone which studios they use and is transportation and housing/meals included? There does not seem to be an mention the most important part - "DISTRIBUTION". Do they guarantee your material will be distributed in national retail chains?
And then, 50 GRAND?
For well under 50 grand you can purchase a fantastic portable digital studio (comparable to "Pro" gear) that includes all the microphones, cables, stands, etc. (It would help to have good ears, but, we're musicians, right? We are supposed to have good ears.) You can even hire an engineer to use it! Add a relatively powerful PC, printer, labels, inserts, jewel cases and a stack of blank CDs and your off to the races. Remember, this is for those starting out. A bit of labor involved but it's part of paying your dues (You also get an education in recording your material). When you hit the "Big Time" the point is moot. When you hit the "Big Time" you won't need Sellaband.com.
As stated previously, if you can get 5,000 "investors" to underwrite your endeavours you wouldn't need sites like this. Then again, what happens to the "investments"? Are they kept in non-interest bearing escrow like a mortgage? Invested in an interest bearing account? (Hopefully, not in Enron-like stocks). Is this interest part of the "income" that is distributed between the Artists, Fans/investors and the site owners?
Microcredit would be good to get the widget manufactured but you may need Macrocredit to get it into the marketplace (Payola anyone?). Either way, you become an indentured servant of the finance industry.
Michael "Philadelphia Phingers" O'Donnell
The Kodgers
http://thekodgers.com
For me the next level in my music business is not operating out of debt. The investment I made in my CDs was significant, but worth it. However, I am not willing to do a third CD of my own by going into debt, or at least as much debt as my first two incurred. The ArtistShare model is more promising if you really don't have the cash up front: Go to your fans and have them pre-pay for your art. The other alternative is to use the desire to record another CD as a personal incentive to grow your income by the required amount. Or record/produce incrementally, perhaps in a subscription model for your fans.
The CD is a calling card: The live performance and/or songwriting and/or musical virtuosity is what differentiates you from the masses. While some debt is unavoidable, I have learned (especially in dealing with the IRS) that you need to get that income coming in as early as possible. It's not easy, but eventually your fans will pay for your music.
For another good take on this, read Kevin Kelly's blog on 1000 True Fans.
In This moment, I haven´t time to read this. But I Think that all is do it to help body, like musician is good.
I think that the jewels, as such, should be made to reach as many people, thus resulting or suggest that we circulate in Spanish to those, like myself who do not understand English well.
Thaks, Derek
Doria
Microcredit is not good for the musician or the music. I think the current models for musicians to make money online are mostly ridiculous, CDBaby notwithstanding. Most services offer nothing for nothing. The way I see it, you get what you pay for most of the time.
BTW, the best way to make money is to have good product available at your live performances, CDs and other merchandise. People buy quality stuff. The goal of every musician (that's trying to earn a living or at least some decent side income) should be to have a show and songs so compelling people will open their pocketbooks freely. You should only expect the best from your fans in the way of their hard-earned pocket change when you deliver your best first.
There's too many fingers in the money pie to even worry about the latest money-making scheme on the internet to be worth bothering over or even as a talking point, in most cases. Fans don't want an online band that's afraid of the world around them. They want real people delivering real music they can relate to. That's never changed and it never will. People talk about the internet as the new "revenue stream." But look who's making all the money in that revenue stream. The artists who are selling out shows everywhere they play, no matter what size venue we're talking about.
Try being a band or an artist with a real life, and really getting your music out to the fans, and building your fanbase first before dealing with microcredit and that sorta bunk. Truly, there's only a few things that one can do online to really help a band make money. Thanks Derek for being one of them!
on microlending and bands, I have a couple of thoughts to share
I agree that the microlending model is best utilized where a small
loan can make a big difference as in 3rd world countries. However, I'd like to
share an example and a question for you.
The example was a musicians clinic set up years ago in New Orleans
(not sure if the clinic survived the hurricane) in conjunction with a
local medical school to provide a place where musicians without health
insurance (which is a lot) could get primary care (basic doctor's office
visits) for something link $10 per visit. This was a clinic particularly focused
on the needs of musicians including issues like tinitis (ringing in the
ears) etc.
I mention this model because it was a response to the health care
needs of musicians from a New Orleans based school that valued the
contribution of musicians to the City. This leads me to my second thought, could we build a musician owned bank/institution perhaps with the help of financial professionals to serve the special needs of musicians including
banking and loan packages geared to musicians. It would be bigger than
microlending and need financial backing to start, but maybe it's the vehicle that would solve some of the financial access issues while making it a more formal relationship.
OK, I confess I used my line of credit to buy my current keyboard $1200. this was the best investment I've made in the last 5 years, I've toured with it and recorded with it -- what I had previously was substandard for bigger stages, but my risk was very calculated for a focused outcome, the tour was booked. I managed for years without great equipment and you SHOULD NOT GO INTO DEBT until you're ready for the next level of playing and commitment to being a professional musician. How much of your REAL income is from music? Playing, teaching, session work, if you can say more than 50% than I'd wager microcredit is an appropriate business risk not a dream. Cuz', musicians need power tools!! -- sd
It could work as an entity like prosper.com exclusively for musicians, or as a searchable part of prosper.com. Why place any criteria at all on what the loan is for other than being requested by a 'musician' borrower?
Personally I advocate debt avoidance. Saddled with much student loan debt, like many finely trained musicians, I financed my own group's recording project, paying them and the studio mostly out of money earned from gigs. Stunningly we are still in the black, but like mentioned earlier by another writer, musicians (including me) need help in a lot of other ways like how to sell our music and how to make recordings profitable.
Lastly, I'm going to ask a question of your question: how does micro-loan lending (for musicians) improve on the concept of connecting people with great music and not become interminably entangled in profit-generating?
Really cool responses to the microcredit issue...
I think Peter Blue, the 2nd response summed it up best. Do it yourself and try not to go into debt doing it.
He's a little about my experience..I've been a bassist for 27 years most notably with the band Bad Co. in the early 90's. A year ago or so I decided to put my own CD together. All songs I wrote, sang and played bass on, which I'm very proud of. I put 15k of savings went another 20k in debt and had our best friends invest 7,500. Had more potential investors, so glad i did use them. Just being in debt with my friends is bad enough.
To be honest...I have 100 CD's left out of 1,000, since June '07. I bet half were giveaways and promotional copies. Not good for my investors..I actually pay them back more than the % we have in the contract.
I picked a bad time to try to sell a CD. Nobody seems to be buying them anymore.
My new mindset is to do as much work as I can at home( bought a MAC) and save money to have the most important things done professionally.. vocals, mixing and mastering...And then, write and record...write and record.
I will sell the one I have and the next ones the old fashion way, out of the trunk of my Mercedes Benz (used 8 years old) and of course the conventional internet ways.
Also, I like to thank Derek for the cool, inspiring and truthful articles you pass on to us. I have made it a point to start my day by reading one of them.
Even though I'm 48 and have been in the biz a long time, I learn something new everyday.
PC
www.paulcullen.net
I want to say thanks to Grant Carrington for this comment:
"I strongly disagree with
vocal performance is not just perfect but head-turning, striking.
Perfect is boring. I look for energy in performance (and in writing)–Woody Guthrie wasn’t a “perfect” performance but he was (and is) far more interesting to listen to that all these perfectly-tuned performances and recordings today. Maybe that’s why Jac Holzman liked Jim Morrison."
Some folks here have some interesting ideas. The "reverse affiliate" idea seems good. What about fans getting a credit at CD Baby for every album they recommend to someone who buys it? The buyer would put that person's name in a box on the order form. Other companies do this (recommend a friend & get a free whatever).
Who would be financing that "credit"? CD Baby, the artist? To be figured out.
I do think that 'word of mouth' ('word of Internet?') as detailed by Malcolm Gladwell (see The Tipping Point) is the best promotion.
As an aside: I played in Hilton Ruiz's last band before he was killed in New Orleans. We did a concert in Schenectady NY. The band was totally smokin'. I sold lots of CDs afterwards and said to Hilton, "I didn't know you could sell this many CDs on a gig." He said, "When you play your ass off, you do."
But I also think it helps to be playing in a place that is slightly off the beaten track. AND play your ass off.
In the end, how can one be financially successful as an artist? Thinking outside the box works for me.
It also helps if you don't have too many expenses.
The biggest problem I see here is that you try to compare SAB as a "microcredit" system, where in fact it is a "crowdfunding" system. SAB works like a "fair record label", even if it has the "strict rules" that some critics point out (like the 50K target for every artist). As a matter of fact, a partnership between CDBaby and SAB would be awsome.
There's a lot of great info and thoughts in this comments. I'll think about them, and possibly come back to leave a bigger comment...
A microcredit would produce amazing results for the musician who is:
Informed
knowledgable about the "investment"
has a plan of action and actual business plan for success
Once these steps are taken, then the microcredit will only grow the musicians business.
Otherwise, it is money lost and wasted on a talented musician who still lives in the world of "show fun" and not "show business"
Mykel
Hi Derek,
microcredit is one of the best facilities that should be established in the
musical world.most of us who just started doing music are in need of finacial assistance to enable us continue and do better songs and productions.
it is a good idea .
rgds
sam nimer
THIS IS SO VIABLE.
I am a huge fan of microcredit (see http://www.kiva.org/lender/jeansynodinos) and think there probably is a viable way to apply the model to musicians... with some possible caveats, of course.
My experience as a Kiva lender tells me that people are smart. They figure it out. They're fundamentally responsible. They're inspired by the fact that others are inspired by them. They rise to the occasion. They pay it back, and they pay it on time.
But having read most of the posts to this article, something really pops out at me: many musicians feel they can only benefit from a high-dollar loan, and they aren't entirely certain they'd be able to pay it back. What a paradigm... What a conundrum... What a trap...
OK, so how do we adapt the model for both musicians AS WELL AS lenders? Let's look at each separately, and briefly:
First, lenders.
I dunno about you guys, but the world still seems pretty full of fans waiting to be discovered. So there's a natural pool of lenders out there, of all ages and stripes, who love and appreciate music. Not convinced? Troll through the lenders on Kiva for a good picture of People Who'd Like To Do Something To Help. Think that can't include helping musicians? Think again.
Still, we musicians, as a tribe, generally have a lousy reputation for being responsible, or credit worthy, or what have you (and, sadly, we buy into it ourselves all too often). So lenders might want (and might well be entitled to) some understanding of the following:
1) the purpose of the loan
2) my plan for using the money effectively
3) my plan and timeline for repayment
4) perhaps (as with prosper.com), my credit worthiness
5) ...and this is the big one... my music. (If they love what they hear, we'll have a fan, a true believer, a lender. Or, as they used to say in the Golden Age, a "patron.")
I don't know about you guys, but my audiences tip pretty well at gigs and they do it because they value the music and they FEEL GOOD about doing it. When I loan on Kiva, I likewise FEEL GOOD about directly supporting an individual in a Third World country who's looking for a way out of their poverty. You may think there's a world of difference there, but there IS one fundamental common denominator: when people feel good about supporting something, they do it. Need another example? Look at Barack Obama's fundraising in the past 18 months (and his supporters aren't looking for a return on a loan)!
Which leads me to what I suspect could be the compelling reason that microfinance to musicians could succeed: people have an intrinsic desire to be part of something special. Something bigger than them. Something that moves them. Something in which they believe. For a true music fan--a "true believer"--contributing $25 to your project may be as meaningful and delightful an experience as it is to the Kiva lender who gets a chance to help a flower vendor in Central American or an auto mechanic in the Middle East. It could be as meaningful as it is for the senior citizen on a fixed income who's always voted Republican but has just sent Obama $15 because she's inspired.
As for musicians:
Turns out that what we do has the capacity to inspire a lot of people. And some of those people would be honored to help you, even if it's only in small increments.
Personally, I think it's an honor to count someone as a fan (and I know I should do a lot more than I do to honor the ones I've got). I bet you do, too. And I'm not at all opposed to tapping into existing fans--and new ones--through microlending.
A microloan is, by definition, "micro". And I'm not entirely certain why some of the posts are focused on the idea that musicians can't benefit from a "micro" amount. We don't need to be asking for $20K to record a CD -- we can be requesting smaller amounts to support very specific funding needs. Remember that a lender on Kiva can contribute as little as $25 for very specific reasons (e.g., $1200 to purchase new inventory for a general store, or $800 to purchase a new cow for increased milk production, or $650 to purchase lumber to build an annex to your business).
So you guys think you couldn't benefit from a micro loan? I don't know about you, but it's that "last $1000" I generally can't seem to scrape together. Here are some uses for a grand that come to mind right off the bat (and I'm sleepy and addled and I know there are tons more):
$1000 to pay for:
-- T-shirts or other promotional items in support of your new release
-- a second pressing of your last CD
-- an assistant to help you for a while with those business tasks that need doing
-- gas for the next tour
-- postage and mailing supplies to send those new CDs to targeted radio
-- internet/phone costs for the year
-- that extra-special producer or drummer or guitarist that will take your next recording to the next level
-- artwork for the new CD
-- great mastering of the new CD
-- a little targeted advertising
-- two weeks off from your job to write more songs
We could ask for a lot less for a lot of important things, too, including money to cover stuff like:
-- Taxi membership for a year
-- new promo photos
-- internet hosting for a year
See what I mean?
Still, I can hear the arguments now:
"But I need the big bucks now to record the CD!" (OK, then micro lending might not be for you. Either go get that moola elsewhere, or reconfigure your budget to record for less, or consider how a smaller loan could support the overall CD production. Or get a day job if you have to for a while. Or work double shifts for a month. Whatever. You can do this.)
"But I don't think I'll ever be able to pay it back -- even if it's only $1000!" (OK, you've got two choices as I see it here. Either microlending is not for you because you regard yourself as an unreasonable risk, or you can shift your friggin' paradigm and discover all the cool ways that you CAN pay it back! Yes, you can!)
Micro lending is a beautiful two-way street between entrepreneurs and those who are motivated and in a position to support them, and I'd love to see the concept to support musicians (and, for that matter, sculptors, writers, painters, actors -- all artists).
I suspect that a successful model will probably require the same two components that, imho, make Kiva such a success:
1) The lenders feel as though they're part of a larger community and a larger cause. This is done through the creation of a lender page, and opportunities for lenders to network online. We don't have to be rich to loan -- just $25 and a PayPal account gives us the opportunity to help someone directly.
2) Those requesting loans provide enough information to pique the interest of lenders. For musicians, my bet is that it's going to have to include some idea of:
-- how the money will be used
-- when we plan to start repaying the loan (and over how long payments will be made)
-- our credit worthiness (which may or may not be important to individual lenders)
-- most importantly, our music.
Finally, a word to Derek: your new site is incredibly thought-provoking. THANK YOU! And excuse me now while I go pick up my guitar before falling asleep...
Jean Synodinos
(say it like this: sin-uh-DEE-nus)
Austin, TX
http://www.jeansynodinos.com
http://www.myspace.com/jeansynodinos
GREETING'S FOR ALL THE GREAT IDEAS .
IALMPP RECORDS THANKS ALL THE CDBABY CREW'S
ISHAICH IS COMING UP SOON AND EVERYDAY IS A BLESSING
REGGAE MUSIC IS PEOPLE'S MUSIC AND IT IS UNIVERSALL ISHAICH
IS BRINGING AN AUTHENTIC FLAVOR TO THE MUSIC PLATE
HUMBLING MEGA STAR .
THANKS ISHAICH EXTENDS ALL HIS REGARDS TO ALL THEN GREAT PEOPLE AT CDBABY.
For a few years I dealt with an artists' sevrice organization, "Center for Creative Innovation," in L.A. which used the microcredit model. The only problem was that they, the organization itself, got bored with the model and with artists annoying habit of wanting money to go on making art that wasn't being bought, that they devolved into just another granting organization doling out money and advice to those that don't need it.
On the other hand, my bank WaMu, extended my business $25K of credit (a combination of business line of credit, overdraft protection and a credit card) based on nothing but my high FICO score. It would be harder now because a lot of people f*cked up in the housing market all at once, but it's still possible.
If you treat it right (and not the way VISA/MC wants you to), your credit card is a microloan, use it as investment money whoch must be repaid within a certain time in the context of a well thought out business plan. If you don't know exactly how you're going to pay it back in an appropriate amount of time wirth funds from the project in which you're investing - don't do it.
RE " Steve Pasek "
that was f@#K&ng Brilliant. Hats off 100 percent correct steve.
stanlee
Whattalotofbollockssofar.
The absolutism of the opnions here makes this to much of a black or white discussion. For some bands it works, for some it does not. The same for those who invest money. It's just like the real world.
This whole topic so far leaves out the networking/community side of the equasion, which is the main purpose of it in my (not very) humble opinion.
It's not about the micro-investment, it's about getting people to be in business with the band. If I buy a CD I may not care at all what happens to the band next. If I buy a part I wish them well and will support them in any way I can, just to prove that I was right investing in them. I'll not stay just a believer, I'll be their apostle. Even if only to prove to my wife that I did not squander my daughter's dowry on this hobby of mine
Another point left out of the topic, is the income from advertisements, split between bands, believers and site. While this is not a big amount yet, it will grow with the growth of the site. And every $ from this is just a bonus for bands as well as believers they would not have had access to otherwise.
A third -and very important IMO- aspect left out, is that SellaBand is a lot of fun too, for those who use it as a community. To be able to contact artists and believers with your questions/suggestions/opinions and getting answered as well. To bond, to work together to achieve a common goal, to enjoy each others company, to share a dream.
To see how a band can make it work just check out Banshee Celtic Band and see how they use SellaBand to:
raise money to make their next CD (a lot of it their own from sales of their last CD)
increase their fanbase
gain a lot of contacts outside Poland for gigging, festivals and the like
team up with other artists to tap into one anothers fan base
get input from their believers to improve marketing
Hi Derek,
Microedit is a great liberal/social idea... but money is not always the answer.
Simply pumping money into the 3rd World is not working, so similarly, why would it neccessarily work with musicians, or any other group of diverse people for that matter?
As the saying goes:
"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him how to fish and he'll eat for ever"
In other words, education, experience, resources, and ideas are worth far more than simply pumping into a system.
At www.midi.co.uk we've started an online musical collaboration project which will operate under a creative commons licence, if it works, the finished album will (of course) be sent to CDBaby for digital distribution.
Obviously, to participate, musicians would need access to a computer and basic musical sofware, but to an extent this is dependent on available resources rather than money per say...
It amy make the world go around, but it's also the route of all evil...
we need microcredit. some of us have no sponsers.
we need money to enable us make better songs recording at better
studios. with out money the upcomming artist will not put out his or her best production. please help.
Electric Eel Shock joined Sellaband yesterday, they probably do not need microcredit, but have collected almost 7k and counting their first day on SAB and the night is still young. And they have not done any of the hard work like contacting believers and trying to get them interested. The news obviously spreads like wildfire and people are falling over themselves in their hurry to be part of EES' next album.
So for established bands microcredit may work a lot faster than separate negotiations with record companies and people who may want to invest money in a their band. In Holland all workers get their holiday bonus (about a month's salary) around May 27th. Might be a good moment to join for a well know band that wants to try how SellaBand works for them.
EES over 10K already on SellaBand. Does microcredit work for them?
We were the first UK band to reach the $50,000 on Sellaband and have been with CD Baby for many years now. Things have been slow to build with Sellaband but with more than $2 million dollars in the bank now and 20 bands having reached the $50k mark, they are starting to turn heads in the record industry. Things have also been slow for us, but with the help of both companies we have been able to turn something that was just a hobby into something that we can make a living from!
CD Baby and Sellaband are both great in their own ways, and we're very happy to be working with both!
THIS is a PRE-sale strategy used by many in Seattle and I suggest you try it: First focus on the obvious -- those on the email list already, and then branch out to open mics, back alley bars, legit nightclubs, burlesque nights et cetera and get the word out .........
Also I just tally'd up my project so far and yep $1657.00 IN to it currently !! which could easily be a 10 k project --
COMMENT back: OH dear geeks, I don't EVER want to buy pro-tools and go engineer, that's an entirely useless direction if you are trying to be a musician/artist -- be true to your calling! Go write another song. HIRE a great engineer that's honing his/her craft at his/her small studio, and spend that pro-tool money supporting yet another art -- engineering....you will lose a year of your musical career to learning pro-tools!!!
http://www.guerilladisc.com/news.html FEEL FREE TO GET FUNDly
Hi,
Its amazing the response on this topic. I am Cubworld's wife. He made 50K last year on Sellaband. The first American to do so and we have had an amazing experience. To be honest it has allowed Cubworld..aka Jake to make music his profession instead of just a hobby. He started out thinking he would put away his own money into the program as a savings for his future album. People jumped on board however and he got the 50K in four months. Some people believed a lot and some a little but they all got an amazing album. Jake had the opportunity to work in Tony Bennet studios and with amazing musicians to make one fabulous dream come true album. He got on sellaband with easy recordings from his bedroom on his mac. Music is his passion and to be able to share it with people from all over the world has been Amazing.
Now there are some things about sellaband that are hard for some artists like the publishing deal of 40-60. Jake gets 60% of his publishing which for an unsigned unknown artist is great. It is better than 100% of nothing. For us it was the right thing to do. Another hard thing is that there is a small budget allotted to each artist for promotion after the target is reached and it really isnt enough for a world wide campaign. however if it is used in the right way it can help the artist get a big jump in the music world.
However the pros far outweigh the negatives. There is an amazing community for starters and even puting your music on the site and having people listen from all over the world is an amazing thing. The artists dont go into this incredible debt to make this album and neither do the believers. The believers get a cd and then a few bucks back on top of that. For the small time investor who loves music with ten bucks for a cd and then some cash back its a great place.
What is cool about it is that if Cubworld Succeeds then so does sellaband and the believers and if Sellaband succeeds then so does Cubworld and the believers. Sellaband wants the artists to succeed so they can make a profit. They are all music lovers and they are doing their best to promote and get the word out and to get their artists to succeed. Everyone knows its super hard to break into the industry and Sellaband gives people a head start.
By the way the money the believers put in is put into an escrow account until 50K is made and the believers can get their money back anytime before the target is reached and the musicians can drop out any time before the target is reached too. plus you get to listen to free music for forever on there and there are some awesome artists.
A partnership between cd baby and sellaband would be awesome!!! Jake has used CD Baby and loves it. We both do. anyways I think this can be a great way to go for a lot of people.
Love the last comments. It has a lot of and and and little or or. Microcredit does not make any other system that works for a lot of people obsolete. Nor do other ways that other people use subtract any from the possibilities of micro-credit. It's just great imo that there are many ways to achieve your goals in the music business if you are talented, industrious, and sensitive to what works for you and what does not, combined with the stamina it takes to go on and on untill you get where you want to be. And some people, alas, will have to keep dreaming about music as a career and will have to stick to their day job to make ends meet.
Hi,
My names are Ezekiel Peace Igbodo , stage name ''E.P.I'', what i have to say about this idea of microcredit is that considering from all the angles of comments given by everyone of the 72 individuals , it shows that it has advantages and disadvantages . And in this life if you because of the thorns in Roses avoid it, you wont enjoy it beauty.
All i would suggest is that microcredit should do more than just given loans, they should assist the artistes in the basic area of promotions and the real commercial aspects of music so that inexperience artistes who doest know how to go about business aspects of music would not go and squander the loans given to him or her. Take myself for example, i prefer someone else doing anything that has to do with the trade of music or the commercial aspects of it: the only area i enjoy doing is the writing and the studio works i.e, the recording.
Found some like-minded sites, today:
http://www.arthead.org/
http://givesmall.blogspot.com/
http://www.socialactions.com/
http://www.humblevoice.com/
http://www.solutionwatch.com/537/humbly-show-off-with-humble-voice/
Sellaband is a disaster. Besides having an inherently un-supportive internal community (in my experience,) the entire concept has one vital flaw: musicians who are trying to make ends meet while having a career need money IN THE NOW, not stored up in some phantom bank account and then spent on production.
People make their contributions in $10 increments working towards a $50,000 goal. That means you have to try and get 5000 people to donate $10. I would MUCH rather get 5000 people to buy one of my pre-existing CD's for $7 - With the $5 profit per CD (estimated) I could produce a new album of reasonable quality and live off of the remainder!