What should I do when someone says, “Let me know what you think!” of their music?
2008-04-07
What should I do when someone says, “Let me know what you think!” of their music?
I love listening to music, but the minute someone says “let me know what you think” it becomes work.
See - I'm still a musician/producer at heart, so if someone REALLY wants to know what I think, my real thoughts are usually, “Rearrange the structure to put the bridge into the intro,” or “Drop out all instrumentation there in the 3rd verse to give it more sonic variety,” or “Tell the drummer to lay off the cymbals a bit.”
But if it's a finished manufactured CD, what's there to say? It's too late to change anything, so who cares what I think? Whether I like it or not shouldn't change anything they're doing. Better for me to just enjoy it and not tell them what I think, unless I'm the producer.
On the other hand, I *LOVE* real constructive critiquing like songwriting workshops.
So, it's really two different kinds of questions:
UNFINISHED WORK-IN-PROGRESS?
Say what I really think.
Hope they're tough enough to ignore me if they disagree.
FINISHED RECORDING?
They don't want to know what I really think.
They just want to know if I'll help promote it by telling others.
So find something positive to compliment to lift spirits a bit, maybe give a bit of marketing advice, and wish them the best.
Or... am I thinking about this all wrong?
Derek,
I really like this blog... it covers various subjects! I am sure you get a lot of people approaching you with their music! You are so very approachable, too!!! I think you are very accurate to think what you think.
I think, three types of people can ask you this question.
1. people who really want the marketing help.
what they really wanted to say was:
"please let me know what marketing strategy will work best for my music?"
in this case, you can be nice and tell them what you think...
2. people who really want you to like what they do.
what they really wanted to say was:
"please love my music!!!"
in this case, you can try to love their music and that's all you need to do?!
3. They think you are a really nice person and wants to be your friend!
All they can offer you is their CD to extend the conversation with you.
Sometimes let me know what you think of it, really means "Let me know if you like it (or not)".
You're a prominent figure in the music industry so I am sure that a lot of people are saying this to you because (as you said earlier) they want to know if you can help them in some way.
But once the release is done, (good or bad) I really like to hear what people really think about it.
IE:
I really really liked this song, I didn't like that song, Or, this song was my favorite one on the CD
Did they dig the cover?
And what about that guitar solo?
I also like to hear what they think the song is about. It's fun to hear if they think it's something different.
This is true for me if you're a musician, music industry, or just the dude who lives next door.
But this is just me.
Once the CD is done, critiques are only helpful if they help you make a better CD the next time.
If you're an industry type, the only way you will want to help me is if you dig my music so much that you want to. In which case you are now fan.
So unless I am at a songwriting critique session (IE: the song or recording is still in the works) or something equivilant, asking someone what they think of my music, means just that.
But this is just me.
PS
One exception:
With more musicians recording at home on their computer, someone can give me a critique on something I have already released, and if I think that crititque is revolutionary, I can hop on the computer and BAM! I now have an alternate version of the song that I can sell as a single, give away to fans, etc.
The challenge for me has always been finding something positive to say when an artist clearly has no business being in the music biz - it's impossible for me to lie with any believability. I can't be saying "aww, man, it's GREAT!" when my eyes and my face are saying something completely opposite of that!
I think you're on the right track... it depends on what stage they're at and what kind of answer they're looking for.
And if they're not "tough enough to ignore [you] if they disagree," then they aren't ready for the big leagues anyway, are they?
> All they can offer you is their CD to extend the conversation with you.
Ah, Valerie! Thanks for the reminder. I forgot about that option.
You should have ended this post with "Let me know what you think."
;)
C
You are right on, man!!
We do demo reviews on Music Business Radio weekly...and get email almost as regularly from people who are mad about what we say. They're not really looking for feedback; they're looking for somebody to say, "I love this and want to help. Don't change a thing!!"
But instead, they get feedback. Do they do anything because of it? I don't know.
And should they? Don't know that either.
Something to think about. It's just an opinion, after all...and everybody in the music business has been wrong at one time or another. But the guys we have on Music Business Radio, or who do demo panels at conferences, are pretty skilled in the business and doing SOMETHING right, so I do feel their opinions are worth something.
One of my favorite stories is the guy at SXSW who took down notes on what the demo panel said about his music. Very humble.
Then he fixed stuff. Came back, not to the demo, but to everybody with a huge hit record. His name? Art Alexakis. The band? Everclear.
Hooper : VERY well-put! “I love this and want to help. Don’t change a thing!!”
You are touching on something I've been wondering about myself -- to write on my blog or not.
First, when they do that, they're usually an artist/act that is looking for something from you. A validation, at the very least -- and more, possibly. And this is something I really feel uncomfortable about the music scene. Everybody's out to get something for themselves. They have this "what's in it for me?" type attitude. Or maybe I think that because I can get that way myself, and don't like it. But it's an easy trap to fall into, when you feel like you have something to prove.
Or another scenario is that they actually don't know what else to say when they hand out their music. I've said it, and some of the times I did mean what I said -- I'd welcome their thoughts, whether they like it or not. But obviously people don't tell me when they don't like it. So no answer usually means they don't like it.
Either way, I myself haven't witnessed any "established" artist, at least someone who's really comfortable with where his/her career is, to give a CD to anyone, even someone really big, with the words "let me know what you think."
I guess it's something we should aspire to grow out of.
Excellent observation- I think 98% on the mark, Sivers. (Threre's always going to be the odd exception- someone who's asking genuinely with no strings attached)
derek, since you are an industry 'bigwig' and a musician -- your opinion matters to many of us out there, so i think that a musician might benefit from your criticism on a finished recording...assuming that he/she will be doing another record!
not only am i an independent musician, but i worked in the music industry (at labels virgin and v2, and for emi music marketing) for over 10 years --- and i know from experience that even if an industry 'bigwig' loves a recording, his or her personal taste won't have any effect on that project's success unless he/she makes it a top business priority (and the label, the distributors, the pr company, blah blah blah also jumps on the bandwagon). so, yes, when i send my music to industry people, it is less about wanting to hear their true opinion about the music, and more about hinting that i could use some marketing help...
when i ask another musician about his/her opinion about my music, i want to hear specific constructive criticism. whether or not it is a work in progress or a finished recording...because even if it is my latest cd - there will be another one coming, eventually! but, i certainly appreciate it when someone points out a couple of things they like or even LOvE about the recording, in addition to any not-so-complimentary comments...
I think you've all touched on the lesson here that can be applied to many similar situations beyond music critiquing... There are situations that call for the "Honey, do these jeans make me look fat?" rule, and others where the "Is there something in my teeth?" rule is much more applicable. Usually there are signs to point you in one direction or the other, but other than that all we have is our instincts.
Some other feedback that is good to get after it's finished is which song is the best one... I know I always agonize over which one to put on my grant/bookings/songwriting submissions, because I love them all! It would be refreshing to get an outside opinion of which one grabs attention the most.
The "Do these jeans make me look fat? or Is there something in between my teeth?" anology is so perfect Mark. Thanks. I also have had my share of people who asked me what I thought, I told them (but was nice about it), and they where upset. I remember asking one of them, "Well, where you expecting that I was just going to say it's the greatest thing I have ever heard".
He answered, "Well....yeah, I was".
Absolutely correct. That's one of the reasons I try to both live-Play-test songs and judge how it is coming off...AND send out demos, post stuff to friends I know feel free to be critical. I once bungled a live show in a record store and then asked a friend how he thought we did. I was looking him right in the eye. He did everything but answer me. I felt really bad for putting him on the spot. Somewhat I wanted him to tell me, "It wasn't THAT bad." Somewhat I wanted to see what he would do. Nonverbally he sort of told me, "Yeah your perceptions are right. I like you, but that wasn't your best live effort." Meh, we played later that night in a club and nailed it.
Good day,
I’ve always believed that all questions & answers are relative to environments and ambitions alike. On a case by case basis, I suppose it is different because everyone sees something that unifies them to their ‘calling’? Either way, because of that (or some facsimile of), I am usually first to tell elseone’ that they owe no-‘one’ explanation for their art.
I write a lot of Epic, avant-garde, & surrealistically natured music, so I know no boundaries other than perhaps, keeping the idea of a song in focus. Taboo is just as fun as all-out Rock & Roll for me. But for many others, there is what Derek spoke of and then what Hooper commented. In my eyes, even that transference of ideas has a split.
For me, individuals like Hooper (or Baker, or Anderson) fall into the category of ‘How-To Jockey’ – Derek is in another league altogether. This isn’t just for obvious reasons; Derek set a precedent that all can learn from even, at their most naïve extent. Those like Hooper…are happy to hear themselves, announce themselves, as a part of a bigger, growing, picture.
But those like Hooper are not in my view.
Derek is and does exist on a verge to betterment via reality.
The point of what I’m trying to articulate is that it is easy to lose yourself in many aspects of creating great music. These days, many become lost in wanting the instant-gratification of having someone say “…they liked…..” a song; especially if it is something they’ve concocted. Most of what you can ask these days of American audiences (e.g.) is filtered by inflated-economy and other various mal-perceptions.
It isn’t that way everywhere though.
Maybe a better choice is to measure your abilities against your skill-set(s) and drive; putting your best songs head-to-head on a mass-consumption scale, all while finding the right areas to plug them so that they have their own context; both based in reality and, based on your efforts. I figure then, you’ve answered all your own questions & doubts (in some manner).
I don’t give a *censored* what anyone thinks honestly; I’m honored & proud to serve music.
Sometimes, I think some people need to worry less & write more (songs).
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read and by the way:
“Hallo Derek”
Respectfully & Sincerely,
- Ss
leitung@sekrettscilensce.de
http://www.sekrettscilensce.com
True true, our songs in the band are ever evolving, even 4 year old ones. I tend to listen to feedback from people and quite often some of the best ideas for reworking or making a song more effective comes from non musicians since they are thinking outside the box and are connected to the core of what music does, i.e make people "feel" a certain emotion! The only problem is that sometimes you can have too many conflicting opinions and ideas. Everyone is different so they all have a different take on your material. Nonetheless there really are no "experts" in the music business, there are just people with experience who can give an informed opinion on things but that's where it really ends. All pieces of music will have groups of people that will say "yay, that's awesome" and "that sucks".
Along the same lines, it pains me to see the dejection on the faces of songwriters who bring their finished CDs to song critique sessions (i.e. West Coast Songwriters or other conferences) thinking they are going to hear praise, when the critiquers job is to, well, find something to improve on. Once the CD is in the can, as you say, its time to stop asking opinions and stand on your work.
Loving your blog. Trying to live by the "do something that scares you" credo.
Great stuff, Derek. You are a person of great substance. 1st, I want to let you know that I very much appreciate you and CDBaby. 2nd, did you get any of the chocolate I sent? (See, I do read your writings – you stating having received only a handful of gifts and your love of chocolate. By the way, you should add the chocolate to the list of gifts you’ve received. I sent it and asked it to be delivered to you personally, even if your employees didn’t share it with you)
About this topic, I think you are dead on. I have released one CD to date. Prior to "final release" I passed out some pre-releases and asked for comments and made judicious changes based on input I received. After release I don't ask for comments, the CD is released and is forever immortalized, good, bad, or ugly. Sure, I can remix/remaster and re-release, but my energies have already moved on to my 2nd CD that I hope to release by year's end. A part of me is dying to ask folks for feedback, but I don’t want to hear anything negative that might make me embarrassed about my CD for one reason or another. My philosophy is to not ask, let people offer.
Sure, I am interested in getting better at what I do and constructive criticism is useful in that regard. But criticism is only truly constructive if I can effect a change as a result. Again, once released, the CD is water under the bridge.
So, if someone asked me for feedback, I would ask them what is it that they really want. Do they want to know if I like the style of music, the lyrics, the quality of the recording/mixing/mastering, are they looking for general comments for things they can consider doing differently in the future, the cover art, etc.? What is it that they really want to hear? That’s the question.
I like the way you think even though I don’t think I can live up to your standards. I enjoy reading your writings and find them thought provoking and challenging. Maybe I’ll write a song about you and/or some of your writings. I bet there’s some good material in there for a song.
Oh, if I follow your advice about staying off the internet (to avoid distractions/wasted time), how can stay on top of your writings?
Hi Derek,
Yes i couldn't agree more. I used to spend a lot of time on My Space but now I limit it to a couple of times a week. What I've found is that I nearly always get friend requests from a few artists who are writing really interesting stuff. When people ask me to comment on their stuff, it's usually nothing remotely like the area in which we work. I've found that, if somebody doesn't ask me for an opinion, I tend to give them one anyway... just because I really like their music. If their music doesn't do much for me, I don't send a comment. I believe that this way, the artists will be able to tell that the comment is an honest one.
Derek, love ya man, I've been following your exploits for many years and I've followed a lot of your advice AND passed it on to a lot of other musicians. Many people, and i'm talking about profile artists, call me an ideas man but you and I know the truth, lol
Derek, long story cut short.....when I started releasing singles to radio I encounterd an incredibly tough critique, he totally stripped the artists and their recordings , tearing them and their art apart. Instead of bagging him like everyone else did, I embraced it and approached him to critique the entire album. Weeks went by then I recieved an email that when printed was over 40 a4 pages long. i read it, put it down totally pissed BUT 2 weeks later I read it again, the same thing happened, then after the 5th or 6th time reading it I had a revelation, he wasnt saying the songs were bad, in fact he was tearing the production apart and praising the songs ! I pulled some really valuable experiance and advice from that one critique, there have been others but he will be one that I will go back time and time again because there are so many people that tell you what you do is good, but by listening to the few that tell you your not and why forces you to be better at your craft. Last year I signed a publishing deal with a Nashville based publishing company and I still live in Australia, we have a great relationship that contimues to grow and they are helping open doors to me that previously were impossable to open.
My advice Derek, is that if someone is asking YOU for your opinion, then give it 100%, dont hold back, because they wont learn how to better theyre skill. They are asking you for a reason and its probably because of your experiance and honesty. cheers, Jason Kemp
When I entertain the feedback is from those you are entertaining and if you are good and your message is moving, you can see it on the faces of those who are following your story. WHen your mission is to raise moral and sprit and to make someone feel good for their service to country even though they and are badly disabled and wounded and concerened what tommorow brings. I know firsthand what it is to be disabled with pain 24-7 but I tell my listeners that the most talented people in America is a veteran, all of you hear now. Only a veteran can go to war and fight and defend and come home disabled and still care for his brothers and reach out to touch them by sharing a story, reading a poem they wrtoe, singing a song that moves them, I let them know that my singing for you is my way of saying WELCOME HOME AND THANKS FOR YOUR SERVICE, and then you see the most honest thing of all their soul, and now because you made that happen others who see will share. THe songs I write and compose are mostly stroies of those who protect our liberties and freedom. When you sing your song if you sing it the way your wrote it and feel it, you don't need to ask any one how was the song you will already know.
in my first, and only, year in college, I was an Opera Voice major. My teacher, a world reknowned Mezzo had a philosophy that I keep to this day.
She was tough. She would work us to the bone, but the outcome was always a fantastic performance.
When we'd get off stage after a performance, all the students would ask her the same thing, "How'd I do?!". She never really answered. It was always this happy, "It was great".
One day, in a group class, someone asked her "Why don't you ever give us criticism when we get off stage?"
Her answer, "I teach you, and I will be hard on you until things are perfect. However, when I'm at a show, I just want to enjoy it. I'm not your teacher when you're on stage, I'm just there to enjoy the show. Besides, if you were terrible, it's too late to fix it anyway, and just not worth a mention."
I've been producing my band now for 6 years, have been extremely fortunate to do some great things, and I keep this philosophy. I'm also now producing my lead singers solo project. Because we've always been on stage together, I've NEVER seen her perform. This coming Saturday will be my first. CANT wait to be an audience member
D
Perhaps I'm alone in being a musician who has never asked anyone a question like that, primarily because I actually do not care what anyone thinks of my music/art.
Naturally, I want people to buy it to help support so I can continue to make it without starving to death, but beyond that, their actual opinion of it is irrelevant.
They may be buying to show all their friends and say: "Check at this crazy CD, it's so annoying!".
...or maybe some are buying because they think I'm hot and just want to look the liner photos...In any case, my unusual-ness (either in appearance, approach, or sound) somehow got their attention enough for them to part with their money.
That is art to me: even if they hate my art/music, I still made them think.
So, long as they are buying it, and are not explicitly getting others not to buy it, I am happy.
Derek,
I couldn't tell you how many times I've asked someone "let me know what you think and get back to me..." The musician friends I have will always reply and give me their honest feedback. The non musicians will always say, "loved the cd man, it rocks...really like track # 3, (or #4)"...it's almost become predictable in the fan responses. I mean, don't get me wrong I'm glad people appear to be digging our music...your article just makes me wonder, do they REALLY like it? are they sincere? I guess they must be because they're buying the cd's.
cheers ,
Johnnymo
I'm an amateur songwriter/musician. I've never performed my stuff anywhere. I've got it published on CDbaby but nobody buys it. I give my music to friends, but I don't say "let me know what you think," although I want to.
Most of the time they get back to me and say "Umm, yeah...very nice, John." I used to feel bad about that, but now I expect it. If they don't like it or get it, that's cool. I do it because I can't NOT do it.
as a writer-arranger/producer, i share the same consents about 'unfinished work' or 'finished recording'. if it's an unfinished work, my true critiques will emerge. but as an artist myself, when a recording is done, it is done! the only thing left to change is creating a remix or re-edit.
i too, look at critiquing as a job. it is my responsibility to ensure the best sound is presented in not only my music, but the music of my artists as well. music in all genres has lost what it used to have... substance! if an unfinished work is presented for critiques, my job is to crush it in hopes the original creator can take the criticism & make a creation that will rock the world. finished works are done; therefore, i need NOT critique it, just check it out.
Hey Derek,
I'm liking your blog. I have also enjoyed lots of the emails over the years. I think this is an interesting post and makes me think of lots of things. I remember being alot younger and playing a demo for some guy and he critiqued it saying the drums weren't doing enough. I was pretty crushed being the drummer. I was a bit angry at the time, but I'm glad he said what he thought. I still think that some of those songs were pretty good considering I'd only been playing maybe a year or two at the time. And you never know when someones angering critique will suddenly make sense to you a few weeks, years or whatever down the road.
I don't necesarily agree that just because it's a finished CD that a critique would be useless. What if the critique involves some "bad" habit that I've never really thought of or been aware of that I will carry onto my next recording. I guess you can always try to be honest without being mean. But often artists can be emotional types and may take things the wrong way. I also know there are sometimes that the person critiquing just doesn't like or get the style. And that's ok. But if that's the case I think we need to be somewhat open minded in our critique. I mean I'm not a big big fan of country music as a genre, but I could appreciate it was done well, tight, creative and has good production. Also I think it matters what the artist wants to achieve. For instance I play in bands doing rock stuff but I also do some solo stuff that would probably have less mass appeal as a style, it's poetry with music. But I believe there is an audience for everything if it's done well, you just have to find your audience. It may not be as big as Celine Dion's audience, but the size isn't necessarily what matters.
I've had a CD in the works slowly for about 5 years now. Alot of it is almost done, but it's sort of been on the backburner since I've been living in Korea and teaching to pay off debts. But the last two years I've been playing alot over here and have decided to change my plans and just release it over here. I've played it for alot of people over those five years and actually alot of folks seem to like it. Alot of the time I didn't really ask for a critique, but I got some. Some were valid like a spot where a guitar player tried something and it didn't work. Well I bought a new computer, audio interface and am working of fixing that stuff. Some of it is small, but I know it would bother me if I didn't fix it.
Oh and another reason that a critique might be good. I have one tune that I've recorded several times with different musicians. It has somewhat of a structure but the main thing is it is meant to be improvised on. I'd maybe like to record this same tune with different versions on all my solo cd's seeing the different ways it could be expressed. So if someone has a song on the finished cd that is really dear to their heart, maybe your critique would give them valuable ideas for reinventing a different version. I think as artists we need to develop some kind of balance, a thick skin at times, but also an ability to really listen to criticism, mull it over and decide which changes will help you grow and which ones just do not fit with your vision. I think it's important that we do have some vision that we sometimes can stick to our guns. At the same time sometimes the magic might happen with we allow or vision to either grow and expand or conversely narrow and refine.
My girlfriend works as a translater putting the Korean subtitles on some documentaries. She was working on this one called "Making it Big" or "Making the Band" or something like that, where three songwriters were competing for their break. They all had the same set of top notch studio musicians, a producer, and an established artist to critique them and they each had two hours to make a demo with the help of these folks. Well there was one girl who was obviously a very talented singer, a much better singer that the other two contestants, but her lyrics just didn't seem to be coming across, they seemed a little too literal, especially since their task was to make a song that could be used in TV and movies in many different situations. Well she didn't listen at all to the producer's advice. Well she didn't win. I really thought she had the talent to win, but I think alot people pay alot of attention to our attitudes. If I choose musicians to play with, sure I'm thinking of how good they can play, but I'm also thinking will they be easy to work with. I try to keep that in the back of my mind. I know I'm no Steve Gadd, but I try to think, am I being easy to work with and at least doing my best. Also I try to keep in mind what situation I'm in. If I'm backing up another artist, or playing in a band, or trying to do my solo stuff, I approach them all differently.
Anyway, keep doing what you are doing Derek. If ya ever make it to Korea say hello, and visit. I'll probably be here a few more years at least. I think it's a good place to try to refine my stuff while having an income from the teaching. There's a nice little scene (and it really is little) of foreign musicians playing over here, and I'm enjoying it.
Hey Derek, Wow I love it when someone makes me think! I've read all the comments as well and while I 'get' what most of them are saying, I don't really agree. Yes, I want people to listen and comment, but what they say is less important than the fact that they say anything at all. I never ask anyone who is an industry critic 'what they think' if they like it they'll say so anyway. The biggest reason I ask the people I give or sell my cds to 'let me know what you think' is that I believe it is a complement to them that I care about their opinion. More recently I haven't been saying it as much because I've found that I get more from people when I don't ask. So many times even those who are close to me don't make comments, and when I ask if they have my latest cd, I get a comment like...OMG! I love it! It never leaves my cd player!....I even had a musician who played on my last cd come back to me and thank me because he was going thru hard times and the music we made together was helping him thru his crisis. We are friends and I never knew about the tragedy that had occurred, If I never sell a single cd his comment would make it all worthwhile!
I write and record music for one reason, because I LOVE IT! If I never play another show, never try to sell another cd, I would still have spent the $20k on my studio, I would still write and sing to the universe in my quiet little room. There is no bigger thrill than what I get out of creating music, my second greatest pleasure is performing, my third greatest pleasure is when someone comes up to me and says, 'thanks you really have a great cd'.
I always struggle and obsess over my recordings, trying to do the best job I can and when someone cares enough to make a comment (good or bad) then I consider it a compliment. I write in whatever style I feel like, in my songs I strive for individuality and never try to sound like any 'flavor of the month'. In realizing this one thing I have freed myself to be truly creative.
With all this said and after reading this blog and all the comments from other musician's.....I will most likely NEVER hand someone a cd and say, 'let me know what you think' again!!!! LOL!
Wow... fascinating blog Derek! You're living out several fantasties I've had about my own life in the past few years! Very inspirational!
Some random thoughts & questions...
Does chocolate or coffee qualify as an addiction according to your list?
I'm with you on the CD feedback. I don't give feedback on a finished CD (unless I LOVE it!) because I know they're asking because they're so proud of it and want and expect me to say it's fantastic and I can help make them a star somehow (which of course I have NO power to do!). Honest feedback at that stage could be far more harmful than beneficial. In a songwriting workshop I try to weed out those who have picked a song they've already invested thousands into producing and have picked to impress - and ask them to play something not yet recorded where the feedback can be far more constructive. Plus, analyzing someone's work takes a LOT of time and energy - I'd rather make invest it in a work in progress.
The circle of influence - wow....great concept.
THANK YOU for putting the energy into this blog. You have done SO much good for the artist community already. And now ... a new brand of good!
Off to mull...
And think about selling my house!
Shari
When I write it is usually always alone. I'm not interested in second guessing the basic structure of a song I write, especially with lyrics. Recording has been the same way for a while but when I do bring in outside help I find it supremely rewarding to work with those musicians in achieving what I have in mind and in all cases so far exceeding my expectations. That is one of the great rewards in composing is obtaining the input of talented artists in your work and having it elevated by their participation. I value their craftsmanship. That's why I asked them to participate in the first place. When the project is done I always want to know how people like it but I feel if whomever it is I'm soliciting likes my work then THEY will find a way to "tell me what they think" on their own and be motivated to do so. That's the only honest reply to my work that I'm interested in. Weather they like it or not. If they don't well it's not going to change anything on my behalf. If they do then I've gained a fan. I'm not interested in discussing the nuts & bolts to my work and questioning or second guessing it. I usually have a good idea what it is I'm going after.
So far I've made about 5 or 6 albums (including a couple that were just done in my bedroom for friends), and I'd like to think each one is a progression; learning something new from the last one.
A lot of these lessons couldn't have even been pointed out before that last CD was printed... not all constructive criticism lies in the song arrangement or recording technique. Sometimes there were marketing, branding, or other simliar lessons to be learned.
So my most recent album is a $5 all-acoustic CD in a cardboard sleeve of 10 original tracks under my name with a picture of me (albeit slightly obscured) on the cover.
I get people in the audience ALL THE TIME who tell me i should charge more... nope.
I watched people when they were at the merch stand thinking about buying a CD and paid very close attention to what they said before not buying the last disk:
"It only has 4 songs on it."
"Is it a solo acoustic album like what I just heard? No? ...let me know when you do one that sounds like the show you just did - I'll buy that."
"It's $12, but I could buy that new Foo Fighters album at Best Buy for that and I KNOW I'll like that CD."
"Is this the guy who was just on stage? It has a girl on the cover."
So I made a new CD charging only $5 for it and got:
"Why is it only $5??? Probably didn't spend much on it. It must suck."
Then I simply printed it in cheaper packaging and it's sold better than any CD I've ever made... I've sold almost 500 CDs in the last 6 months (I keep records of how many I sell at each gig to prove this). This one is all acoustic (live my live shows), recorded in my house on a crummy 8-track with 1 SM-58, using mostly 1st takes.
Now back to the point of the reply - I could have gained this information from someone back when I did the first CD. The lessons that got me here weren't learned from some major label A&R guy at an industry panel, they were learned the hard way from the audience (ultimately, my potential customers and fans) and even bands who were doing things the wrong way (you can learn from ANYONE - never discount someone as unable to teach you no matter where they are on the road).
So when I ask someone with Derek Siver's track record and expertise to "tell me what you think", even though it may seemingly be for a CD that seems done and over with, I plan on making albums for the rest of my life (even if they're all gonna be done here on this 8-track), so there's no limit to what can be learned to improve the next one.
Yes, I want people to enjoy my music. I especially want people to enjoy it who can help take it, me and my career to the next level. However, not everyone will and if the goal is to truly get instruction and constructive input over approval, the number of people who DO enjoy it will grow.
Best Regards,
Greg Hyde
I have this view of music....Its like food ..everyone doesnt like everything... and ....A hit song is kinda like McDonalds food it has wide appeal.
First of all, you're still awesome.
Second, when I give someone a finished CD, I really DO want to know what they think. Why? Because it's not the last album I'm ever going to make. Suggestions on my previous album help shape the next.
Also, songs on an album are not really the finished version- if someone makes a suggestion about an arrangement, I can change it in live performance.
So listen to my stuff, and tell me what you think. Always. Honestly.
Pax,
Matthew
http://matthewebel.com
Tell me what you think is really code for "can I get a pat on the back here?" Since a creative person can usually come up with something positive to say if they try, then say that. If someone REALLY wants to get better they will ask you, "What could make this better?"
Derek and fellow readers,
When I ask someone to listen to a CD that is already completed, and I ask them "What did they think of it?" I am not asking anything other than, "Did it move you?" "Did you fall asleep to it?" "Did you ever hear anything like this before?" and now that I know what I am really after, that is what I ask. I have gotten specific. One person was going through a difficult legal trial and was listening to a particular piece of music, and he said it calmed him down. He just kept the CD in his car and listened to that one track while driving to court. That's what the music is for! Music comes from someplace, at once inside and outside me, and it does not belong to me, so when I ask those questions, what I am really asking is, "Did I get the message right? Was I listening to myself when I created it, and if so, did you feel what I felt when I wrote it? Did I communicate that grief, or joy, or love to you, because that's what I meant to do. Did I get it right?" That's what I am asking. The structure, the critic's view, the analyst's judgements; none of that matters. Music, for me, is like fog. If you stand in one place, it will come to you, and conversely, it will go from you, where it will, just as easily.
Hi Derek,
Interesting that you should cover this topic. I just got an email from a friend and studio client asking me what I "candidly" thought of a song he's working on. It's posted on his website. Wish I had seen this article first. Anyway, yes, it was work to think about the song critically and I didn't want to say anything that might be hurtful. In fact, I'm still working just writing this response. I think I'll take your advice and turn off the computer now....maybe I'll write a song.....don't worry, I won't ask you what you think of it.
Billy Carl Mancini
www.birdmancini.com
The Pine Baron
After 40 years of founding, fronting, managing, booking, publicizing, locating the gig and giving directions to band members, etc, I wouldn't have it any other way. To make it all work out someone needs to be in control and, I have to be that someone. After 38 years, however, I delegated delivering and setting up the sound system to another member of the band.
Sounds like you're flying Derek-give us a bell if you touch down in Ireland.
cheers-ei
Hey Derek, I hope some day when your driving down the highway, with the warm air and sunshine lighting your way you'll listen to "Worlds Within" and you'll feel a sense of conscious connectedness to your Self. Music can do wonderful things!! If you head towards Wisconsin always a place to stay here at Whispering Hills. Thanks for everything! ken
My record is not everyone's cup of tea. That's for sure. But I can pretty much call it when I think someone is going to like it and often will give one of those people a copy. I don't say, let me know what you think, I just say " I think you might like my record". It's a way to connect to someone that I feel a vibe with, but I don't want to put them in a weird position by asking them what they think. I just let it go. . .psssshhhhhhh......
Whenever I see someone from myspace asking me to "comment", i pretty much ignore it(just being honest)unless they specify that they are truly a fan/friend of mine(i always feel like those things are mass messages anyway). It all depends on the intention of the asker.
I agree with an earlier post who said if he liked it he'll comment. Asking people to comment is just tacky and seems desperate. Asking people for feedback is OK, just be prepared to get an honest answer and do it with respect(people are busy with their own stuff!).
Now I'm going to ask myself to shut up! Thanks, Derek and All.
I've had one instance where I have asked someone what they thought of my work, but I didn't exactly ask it in that way, and I think the setting has relevence. I've been teaching English in Korea and for a lot of the time music had been on the backburner (a conscious decision to get out of debt so I could focus on music later without having to be too distracted by money issues). Anyway I visited home and was busking at a farmers market with my junk percussion set up. A guy came by, introduced himself to me and asked me to play on a soundtrack for a short film. It was fun. I met his girlfriend at the time who was a singer songwriter. I went to her gig and ended up meeting a guy who worked with her from a talent agency. Now I had pretty much finished recording alot of the tracks for my still unreleased CD (four years later, wow) and was curious what someone who worked for a talent agency would think about my CD. But I didn't just give him a cd and say tell me what you think of it. I asked him if I could make an appointment to come into his office for a listening section. I was quite honest about the fact that I completely planned to go back to Korea to get out of debt and that I wasn't trying to really do much with it at the moment. However I wanted his opinion as a talent agent if he thought it was marketable, and how and where. My CD is poetry with musical accompanyment, not exactly mainstream, though I think I will include at least one straight up song on it in the hopes of not completely painting myself into a corner. Anyway, he agreed and I went in to his office. He listened and really, really liked it. He was really enthusiastic about it. He was even trying to convince me not to go back to Korea, thinking that he could have me playing in New York and such (I'm form a small Province, PEI, in Canada) and he even took it and played it for some other musician that apparently had had some measure of success in the business. He said that guy also usually a harsh critique sat and listened to the entire thing, and was really into it. Well all the good feedback was nice, to hear someone interested in my stuff. But in the end I still went back to Korea. If he'd been able to show me some contract paying me a comparable amount I might have changed my mind. It was a hard decision and sometimes I wondered if it was the best, but I think I did make the right decision to stick to my long range plan and get out of debt. I've tried to keep in touch. I figure I can always approach him later, and still think it was a useful thing to have done. I think being patient was the right thing to do, as I was not sure if he had the connections to back up his excitement about my product. Will his enthusiam have faded after all this time? Maybe. But I can't dwell on it. I did what I felt I had to do for myself. And I'm playing a lot over here and am finally starting to play my solo stuff. A great place to try and grow it I think. Anyway, after reading your article, in hindsight, the fact I was fairly specific in my questions probably helped to make the whole thing go smooth and for him to take me more seriously. Also since in my mind I really wasn't going to do anything with this stuff just now probably helped me to be clear headed about things and not jump on him to help me as somebody working in the music business. At the time I really wasn't looking for anything, I just was curious about his opinion and suggestions for future use.
I do wonder though if I should have pounced on a possible opportunity when it was maybe hot, and dropped my debt eradication plan. But, hey that's history, and I'm pretty close to being out of debt and using money I make over here to invest in studio gear for my own recording, so I feel like I made the right choice. Sometimes I think patience is just as important as jumping on something right away.
An analogy for the "Let me know what you think" question.
If someone wanted a professional doctor's opinion on their current state of health, that doctor would suggest they make, and pay for, an appointment in his office. It just isn't practical, polite, or respectful of the profession to flag a doctor down in the street and ask her to give you a breakdown of your health-profile.
If you make it through an entire day in public without realizing you had bad breath and a booger hangin' off of your nose, you lack self-awareness, and you may have no honest friends.
In other words, you shouldn't have to ask for opinions on the little things. If you think you may have cancer, then pay a professional to find it.
I think like the best think you can do in life is to seek advice from people who have lived longer. They have been through things, and possibly have made mistake that you can avoid by simply having a conversation. In some way...thats what we are doing when we ask you what you think. We are trying to "make it", we are trying to pay rent, and most importantly we are trying to see if what we are currently doing has a chance to make either of those 2 things happen.
Hey! From my perspective: I'd really want to know what you'd think even if it's a finished album/song. You know why? Because your critique helps me to write and produce better songs for the next album. I'd rather know on what I have to work a few months before I start writing new songs than after I've written them.
I once had a telephone interview the the PD of a big radio network, and before I got a chance to ask him anything, he asked me "well, what do YOU want from this music?", and it was kind of the first time that I had had to verbalise that and I realised then that that was the key idea.
so there's my standard response to the question-"what do you think?" " well, what do you want from it"
Derek,
I beleive that it's fine to make constructive comments on a "finished" CD....I do it for friends and acquaintances, but mostly it's usually about the production qualities not the music.
When asked about the music, I think it's fair to say - have you listened to X or Y band? How do you think you compare to them? You seem to be more comfortable with ballads not hard/loud material - what do you think? Your sensibilities seem more comfortable in genre X - is that where you feel you excell? It's important to be polite as that's what seems to work to get someone to think about their music more openly - with less resistance. It can lead to constructive feedback for future releases...of, course, I'd rather be asked to review it before release, but that's no the only time to make valuable feedback.
I've sent out demos of my music to DJs and other musicians I respect and they've given me improtant critques. It's helped me to NOT release a CD of some styles and to focus on where my voice and playing are better suited.
One or two opinions isn't really enough - tastes may not be close what you're trying to do.
Traditional Persian music?
Since when has Bjork been under that category?!
I get your drift though. I agree with some of the writers above. People will tell you if they love your music and being prepared to listen, and take honest feedback is the key. Pure and simple.
Not rocket science, but what I think none the less.
Thou are a fine Philosopher Derek.
I often think of a saying Artie Shaw
once uttered to Mel Torme'.
"All we really have is time".
He was a man of few words.
Very best regards.
Mark
When People ask me:"What should I do when someone says, “Let me know what you think!” of their music?" I always respond with: "Who am I to judge your creation? I am a singer songwriter like yourself. Someone e-mailed me the other day about unfair judging of songs at ourstage. My response to him was well maybe they were judging the song, not the production. I tend to not judge songs, but appreciate the effort the songwriter has put into his creation, whether it's a full demo, or simple demo. Have fun, very few of us will make a million with our songs...
Maybe they just want to know if you like it ?
-- Derek
Do you ever just listen to music for fun ?
I mean that would be an interesting article what Derek Sivers' 100 favorite CDs are ?
But then that may kill this website because Derek you would have to state what your taste were.
People then might know if you really know what your talking about or if you are just giving one sided advise.
It also would guide people to know what to send to you.
I'm not saying you aren't smart and I do like some of your insights.
My only problem with some people in the industry is they act like they are someone and sometimes Derek I feel that way about you.
CD Baby was a great idea and many people came up with the same idea but CD Baby went farther and gave us iTunes so I am glad for that.
But now that CD Baby is over and your here giving advise, I'm thinking maybe you need a job ?
Or maybe your bored.
I hope I have not offened you Derek.
Perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about, but I wonder if you lost touch with what the industry is all about art.
Not exactly perfected art though sometimes yes but sometimes it's just artist creating a piece and looking for people to enjoy what they created.
All they may really want is look I created this do you enjoy it?
Not What does it need? but rather Is it your cup of tea?
Hi Art. I don't mind people knowing my tastes. I linked to them, above. (Persian traditional and trip-hop). I don't think I'm “someone” (I like the way you put that), but the opposite: I don't want people to give too much weight to my opinions. Good point, though, that maybe they don't and I'm just full of ego, imagining they do.
as a dj i get this email multiple times a day, and it automaticallys puts them in the "listen to my music" category. I feel you always need something to break you from the pack. Overall i get about 15 music submissions a day, some major labels, some indie acts, and some begginers in thier art, and with my scheduel thereis know way i can listen to it all (might need muckwork for that, lol), so presentation is what ususally seperates someone from the pack for me, i do this knowing i might be missing a diamond in the ruff, but its the best i can do, for now.
I really like your approach to the questions posted. I agree that if it's a finished product, one is looking for someone to agree and promote it.
Myself I would be very interested in your thoughts on an unfinished body of work, mostly because of your experience as both a musician, and producer.
Thanks again for being so open.
T.D. Christopher
I think , like you think, what I think is true.
You think, like I think, what you think is true too.
If thoughts are truth,
Would we not all think the same?
Use your heart to hear your music and you will know what to do.
Hi Derek,
Thanks for taking time and effort to share most crucial topics in the music industry.
You are knowledgeable and that is why people are seeking for your opinion on different issues regarding the music industry.
You have been such a great help to so many of us that are trying to breakthrough in the music biz. You may not know this, but your work is not in vain. I do believe that the more you share knowledge the more you learn. I would also like to say that, it is important to do things from the heart (singing/writing) and be true to your self. The more you do anything, the better you become. By the way, you are welcome to give me a constrictive criticism on my music anytime. You have been such an inspiration! Keep doing what you are doing!
Kimbute’-myspace.com/Kimbute’
Derek,
I just read your article and I do believe I feel into the "Let me know what you think," category. Your article does make sense to! I am currently working to re-establish the way I communicate to be more specific.
The album I just recorded is completed and ready to be sold. So far I have a local fan base + small street team established throughout PA (especially Pittsburgh). My goals are expand my music to the point where I can play at venues which allow me to play my own music, while getting booked on a consistent basis.
In the future I would also like to figure out tips on how to raise my ticket sales as I am currently enrolled in a battle of the bands in Pittsburgh which will be my Cd Release show - July 26th. Any tips on how to more effectively market my music?
Thank you as always!
MAtt Otis
(814)285-1218
www.mypace.com/mattotis
Greetings: I completed a CD not to
long ago it is a jazz fusion CD.
and I gave it to my wifes grandfather , whom always gives his
honest opinion he is 91 years old and likes good music. He told my wife that although he didnt care for me much he thought my music was great and that I was a genius.
Give your music to people who will give you an honest answer with out concern for your feelings or otherwise.
I have listened to the music. I think you should buy a bigger BONG ! LOL
Hi Derek,
Thank you for your wonderful insight on the question "Let me know what you think!" of their music?
Anytime I get a friends request from a band/artist on Myspace, they will always attach a message saying something along the lines of “Give us a listen and tell us what you think!” Of course there are two reasons that bands do this. 1. Networking purposes. 2. As you said in your article; wanting to know if you’ll promote it by telling others.
Now I totally understand the aspect of needing to promote your music…I am in that same boat myself. However, one thing I find infuriating is that most folks do not know how to network. First of all, you don’t go to another artist’s page and ask them to listen to your music without at least opening the message with something like “Hey…wow! I really dig your sound”. Or “Great songs…you have a great voice/writing style”…and THEN proceed to ask that artist to listen and give an opinion. Another thing that I find annoying is when I actually do have the time to listen and give a “Thumbs up” (which is pretty much what I always do), they don’t even take the time to write back to say “thank you”. They are more interested in your praise showing up in their comment section. Again, as you said, they don’t really want to know what you think, they’re just looking for free promotion.
No wonder so many people, especially women who don’t have the time to be someone’s groupie don’t except bands on their Myspace page. The internet is saturated with bands all trying to get recognized. Therefore, I don’t think pumping people to give you “props” is the answer. If they dig your music, they will let you know. The important thing is that as an artist, we have to keep on doing what we do best, make music.
Anyway, kudos to this and your other great articles!
George Hughes
Remember kids,
Actually submitting(!) an unfinished work for critique is like if Michelangelo asked a total stranger to help complete his David; and then this stranger might or might not given him a job depending on what he could have... fixed. Do you really want that? Let me know what you think.
-Jaime
i think this is an awesome blog. i really love music too and i'm working on getting out there with my guitar-playing and singing. this was a real inspiration to not always necessarily worry so much about what one other person thinks. because if you're enjoying your work, it will show through your music and people with enjoy listening to you. so thank you
Derek,
Interesting, and i am smiling because yes it's a great point, but i think a lot of artist are not looking for their music to be critique to threads, especially when you have some critics eg fans, and so called experts always finding something to fault..What we are looking for is a review, a self servicing pat on the back, to just say "look at me i got a review from Derek Sivers"... even a so called humble artists like myself, still love the self gratification of a great review, but i get your point...
I think it's awful to ask someone, especially a friend, for their opinion on your work. They are just looking for praise, not always the truth. I have said, you don't need my opinion, professional or not, music is supposed to be from your soul to express yourself, not to please anybody else. If Beethoven (considered really different in his time) had asked anybody and changed the music to suit their opinion, had not just done it, would we be enjoying his music today?
By the way, the funniest response to "Do you think I look fat in these jeans?" is
"No, your fat makes you look fat."
Great blog. I remember telling one of my friends who played his first composition (which made no sense and sounded terrible) for me, I said "I could never write like that." and he said "Thank you." Long time ago, I used play with a bandleader with not very good musicianship and used to complain to my boyfriend at the time who is an established musician. When he finally met this person, he says to her "I have so much about you from Meg." and she said "Oh, that's so sweet!" I feel that if a musician is clueless enough to put himself and his music out there, chances of him "getting it" are very low and it's not worth your time to even give constructive criticism.
It's a compliment they ask for your opinion. Why do they ask is a whole other can of worms? There is music I like and music I don't like but the best music is the stuff I still haven't heard yet and of course the favourites I return to or reference.